An all electric car, that changes batteries, instead of filling up
Leonard Abbott
An all electric car, that changes batteries, instead of filling up on a
tank of gas. would take less time, not pollute, drive the price of fuel
down, satisfy the ''global warming freaks'' end auto inspections for
pollution. be quieter, stop sea levels from rising, save the whales,
You could even charge your batteries, with solar electric cells, in the
parking lot while you are at work.
BobG
Less time? I bet you couldnt change your one battery in less time than
it takes to gas up. Now imagine if you had to unbolt and wrassle a
dozen big ol T105 boogers around at about 70 lbs a piece. Wearing a
suit and late to work. Its takes more KWhrs to drive you car to work
and back than it does to run your house for a day.... maybe 30KWhrs. If
you have 4 big 2" x 4" solar panels that are about 200 W each, you have
almost a KW for about 6 hrs? That will get you about half charged up.
Hope you dont work nite shift.....
Solar Flare
see if you are exchanging a junk POS battery for a good one?
"Leonard Abbott" <leonard...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:27203-454...@storefull-3318.bay.webtv.net...
Richard P.
the future and they were filled with illustrations showing cars that were
sleek, low slung, and looked like Lambourginis and when they pulled up to
the station to "refuel", a battery pack (about the size of an average trunk)
was slid out from the side as a new one was pushed in from the opposite
side, a few moments later the driver continued on his way. Kinda neat...
And on December 31, 1999 while I hunkered down in my bunker waiting for the
end of the world when the computers failed and I would have to defend myself
from the roving bands of males looking for the last fertile female
... --just kidding --- while sitting around enjoying a nice cold one with
some friends celebrating low key, my best friend said.. well, the world
didn't end after all. I said I agreed but my first thought was I wanted to
know where the hell the sleek electric cars they said we'd be driving by the
year 2000 was..!!!!!!!!! Oh well.. live to dream.
The electric car naysayers of today are cut from the same cloth of
yesteryear who said cars could never break the 60 MPH barrier because the
passengers wouldn't be able to breathe and pass out. They impede progress
and research... give them a nice sound beating up the side of the head,
every one of them.
"Leonard Abbott" <leonard...@webtv.net> wrote
Eeyore
Leonard Abbott wrote:
> An all electric car, that changes batteries, instead of filling up on a
> tank of gas. would take less time,
I've been of this mind for around 30 years.
> not pollute, drive the price of fuel
> down, satisfy the ''global warming freaks'' end auto inspections for
> pollution. be quieter, stop sea levels from rising, save the whales,
>
> You could even charge your batteries, with solar electric cells, in the
> parking lot while you are at work.
No you couldn't. The amount of power you get out of solar cells probably
wouldn't get you 100 yds ! They're pathetic.
Graham
Eeyore
BobG wrote:
You obviously have a 'quick change shop' to do it.
Graham
Eeyore
Solar Flare wrote:
> Who has time to waste while the mechanic tests each and every cell to
> see if you are exchanging a junk POS battery for a good one?
It would have to be done on a lease basis where you never actually own the
battery.
Graham
Leonard Abbott
(BobG)
Less time? I bet you couldnt change your one battery in less time than
it takes to gas up.
Don't keep yourself in the dark ages Bob
-----------------------------------------------------
Have you ever watched a carpenter, change the battery in his electric
drill?.
It takes about 5 seconds.
----------------------------------------------------
The same technology can be applied to your new electric car, When Gas
becomes $5 a gallon that is.!
------------------------------------------------------
Instead of a gas pump, Your service station will have a ramp, with
batteries setting on rollers. while being charged.
-----------------------------------------------------
A woman won't even need help from an attendant. Just Insert your credit
card, pay $3, a battery will be released.
-------------------------------------------------
Punch a button, your discharged battery, also mounted on rollers will be
disconnected, role it onto the ramp, role the charged battery onto the
cars rollers, punch the button again,the battery is secured, and you
drive off. for aunt Minerva's picnic.
Leonard Abbott
(Solar Flare)
see if you are exchanging a junk POS battery for a good one?
Flare, you and Bob must work for OPC, There is not one valid objection
in your posts.
-----------------------------------------------------
Batteries regularly changed do not get dirty. ware gloves if you are
such a sis.
Graham has the solution, you never own the battery, after 200 charges
they are discarded.
len
Windsun
The batteries in electric cars weigh 2000 pounds. The battery in the drill
weighs about 4 ounces.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Leonard Abbott" <leonard...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:27202-454...@storefull-3318.bay.webtv.net...
Leonard Abbott
No you couldn't. The amount of power you get out of solar cells probably
wouldn't get you 100 yds ! They're pathetic.
Graham i have an electric bicycle, that I charge with 2 solar cells, 3
amp. paid $10 for each of the chargers. at Harbor Freight. never have to
use the grid.
----------------------------------------------------
You are right, wind power where you work would be a better solution. if
the wind don't blow where you live, then you would have to connect to
the grid. or drive to the service station.
len
Windsun
Baloney.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Leonard Abbott" <leonard...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:27202-454...@storefull-3318.bay.webtv.net...
> ------------------------------------------------------
Leonard Abbott
Sounds so fantastic you just have to wonder why there arnt any , at
least none that ppl want to buy.
--------------------------------------------------
America has the technology, it is the political will that is lacking,
the power companies control the political system.
This is a weakness n democracy, the people have to force the government
to act. or politicians will set on their ass.
Eeyore
Windsun wrote:
> 3 amp solar panels for $10.
>
> Baloney.
I suspect he means 3W !
Graham
Eeyore
Leonard Abbott wrote:
What happened to market forces ?
If there was a profit to be made someone would be doing it !
Here's the UK's best selling electric car. It's a bad joke.
http://www.goingreen.co.uk/store/content/gwiz
Graham
Leonard Abbott
Eeyore
Leonard Abbott wrote:
Politicians don't make cars, car companies do.
Graham
Leonard Abbott
3 amp solar panels for $10.
Baloney.
----------------------------------------------
keep my bicyle charged ~~~
Leonard Abbott
(Windsun)
drill weighs about 4 ounces.
----------------------------------------------
will be done
on a ramp, they do not have to weigh 2000 pounds.
------------------------------------------------
With the new Nickel metel batteries, they would weigh less than 1/2
that. Most driving is less than 50 miles, heavey batteries are not
needed.
---------------------------------------------------
when you drive to the parking lot at the supper market, for example ,
drive to a parking meter, pay a dollar automatically plug in to a
parking metter by driving forward , charge your battery while you shop.
len
Leonard Abbott
What happened to market forces ?
I can give you a hundred examples, where ''market forces'' are used to
sniffle progress. here are a couple.
#1 Drilling for oil in the Alaska wilderness, would be the best and
safest place to drill, World politics use inviromentalism to prevent
drilling.
-----------------------------------------------------
You can have an oil well drilled in your front yard in long Beach Cal,
against your will, but not in the wilderness, what kind of nonsense is
that?
-----------------------------------------------------
drilling offshore is 10 times more expensive than drilling on land, and
100 times more dangerous to the environment than land drilling, yet
environmental forces dictate where we can drill,
-------------------------------------------------
Oil spills on land never inflict permanent damage. I know that from
experience.
There are electric cars that are not a joke. some go 120 mph.
len
Eeyore
Leonard Abbott wrote:
> the Idiot.is the one that can't accept new ideas.
> (Windsun)
> The batteries in electric cars weigh 2000 pounds. The battery in the
> drill weighs about 4 ounces.
> ----------------------------------------------
> (Windsun) there is no reason to lift the batteries, changing batteries
> will be done
> on a ramp, they do not have to weigh 2000 pounds.
> ------------------------------------------------
> With the new Nickel metel batteries, they would weigh less than 1/2
> that. Most driving is less than 50 miles, heavey batteries are not
> needed.
Most cars need to do 300 - 400 miles sometimes. One that can only go 50 is
useless.
> when you drive to the parking lot at the supper market, for example ,
> drive to a parking meter, pay a dollar automatically plug in to a
> parking metter by driving forward , charge your battery while you shop.
Sort out the health and safety issues of that first - also fast recharge
technology is still some way off.
Graham
Eeyore
Leonard Abbott wrote:
No good for a car.
Graham
Eeyore
Leonard Abbott wrote:
Most are. A very bad joke in fact.
> some go 120 mph.
And costs $80,000 to transport 2 people ! When do its batteries need replacing
too ?
Graham
Trygve Lillefosse
Abbott) wrote:
>The same technology can be applied to your new electric car, When Gas
>becomes $5 a gallon that is.!
In europe the price is about u$6 per gallon.
--
SEE YA !!!
Trygve Lillefosse
AKA - Malawi, The Fisher King
Leonard Abbott
Most cars need to do 300 - 400 miles sometimes. One that can only go 50
is useless
--------------------------------------------------
I don't remember ever driving 300 miles before filling up, if you needed
to go out of town, you could carry a small generator, to charge as you
drive, or even pull a small trailer with a small generator.
%90 of most peoples trips are less than 50 miles.The saving would be
more valuable than the trouble, wind power is free charge. your
batteries at home,
Plug in your car, and use your car to run your house.as a supplement for
the grid.
Eeyore
Leonard Abbott wrote:
> wind
>
> Most cars need to do 300 - 400 miles sometimes. One that can only go 50
> is useless
> --------------------------------------------------
> I don't remember ever driving 300 miles before filling up, if you needed
> to go out of town, you could carry a small generator, to charge as you
> drive, or even pull a small trailer with a small generator.
Totally defeating the purpose of having an electric car !
What do you mean by 'small generator' anyway. Its power output needs to be in
the 10kW region at least.
> %90 of most peoples trips are less than 50 miles.The saving would be
> more valuable than the trouble, wind power is free charge. your
> batteries at home,
Wind power turbines are *not* free though and home turbines make little sense
since turbines need to high up since the wind is much slower around ground
level.
> Plug in your car, and use your car to run your house.as a supplement for
> the grid.
LMAO !
Graham
Tony Wesley
Leonard Abbott wrote:
> You won that round, 2 pannels produce 3 watts cost $10 each. they still
> keep my bicyle charged ~~~
If you ride that bike one hour a week, it *might* work.
Typical power by a cyclist is 100 watts. Use your electric bike for an
hour, 100 watt-hours. That will 33 hours to recharge at 3 watts. At 5
good hours per day, it will take you 6 days. Plus loses for charging.
Harry Chickpea
>Typical power by a cyclist is 100 watts.
Keyboard spew. Try 50 to 75 watts at best. Lance might do 100 watts.
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>"Tony Wesley" <tonyw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Typical power by a cyclist is 100 watts.
>
I do 100, and I'm no Lance.
Nick
Harry Chickpea
Constantly? 75 watts is good. 50 to 60 for the average rider is more
realistic.
stu
"Harry Chickpea" <hchickpe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:454be9cf...@news.earthlink.net...
rider is more like 300W.
Solar Flare
"Leonard Abbott" <leonard...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:28019-454...@storefull-3314.bay.webtv.net...
Leonard Abbott
Re: An all electric car, that changes batteries, instead Graham wind
Yourfullofcraptoneywhatdoyouhave againstbicyleslenny.
5 good hours per day is all you need, there are at least 11 good hours
every day where Ilive, where do you live in the london fog?
lenny
Leonard Abbott
Nick
Constantly? 75 watts is good. 50 to 60 for the average rider is more
realistic.
len= at my age 30 is more realistic, 30 minuets a day, Don't forget
pedalling cuts that 30 watts in half 15 watts for 30 minutes 3 watts
will charge the battery in about 1 1/2 hours. just enough time to return
home from Aunt Minerva's picnic..
Why is every body sooo negative, with new ideas?/
lenny
Anthony Matonak
> Leonard Abbott wrote:
>
>>An all electric car, that changes batteries, instead of filling up on a
>>tank of gas. would take less time,
>
> I've been of this mind for around 30 years.
There are two big problems with this idea. Electrical outlets already
exist almost everywhere within civilization and an electric car could
charge from any of them. True, some would charge slower than others but
all of them could work. In addition to that, the battery packs would
have to be standardized or else we would be in the same situation we
are with cell phones and laptops where no two models use the same type.
>>You could even charge your batteries, with solar electric cells, in the
>>parking lot while you are at work.
>
> No you couldn't. The amount of power you get out of solar cells probably
> wouldn't get you 100 yds ! They're pathetic.
Well, admittedly you're not going to get much range out of solar PV
cells covering your car but you could probably do pretty good if they
were covering the parking space.
A typical full sized car around these parts (Los Angeles) is around
2x5 meters or 10m^2. Figure 4.5 kWh/m^2/day average, some seasons more
and some less, and 10% efficient solar PV (derated from 14%) and it'll
produce around 4.5 kWh/day. A good electric car gets around 3 miles
per kWh (some reported at 6) so these solar cells probably would get
him more than 13 miles (26 with newer cars, maybe).
If a full sized parking stall measuring 3x6 meters were covered in
PV panels then it would produce some (18m^2 * 4.5 kWh/m^2/day *.10)
8.1 kWh/day. Enough to get that car over 24 miles.
Either way, it's way more than 100 yards.
Anthony
Tony Wesley
Keyboard spew? Nonsense.
Lance can do 500 watts for 20 to 30 minutes. I've seen estimates that
Greg LeMond pulled 513 watts on the final time trial in the TdF.
clareatsnyder.on.ca
wrote:
>Idiot.
>
>The batteries in electric cars weigh 2000 pounds. The battery in the drill
>weighs about 4 ounces.
>
Actually, mine weighed about 640 lbs.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Leonard Abbott" <leonard...@webtv.net> wrote in message
>news:27202-454...@storefull-3318.bay.webtv.net...
>>
>
>> -----------------------------------------------------
>> Have you ever watched a carpenter, change the battery in his electric
>> drill?.
>> It takes about 5 seconds.
>
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
clareatsnyder.on.ca
<rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Leonard Abbott wrote:
>
>> the Idiot.is the one that can't accept new ideas.
>> (Windsun)
>> The batteries in electric cars weigh 2000 pounds. The battery in the
>> drill weighs about 4 ounces.
>> ----------------------------------------------
>> (Windsun) there is no reason to lift the batteries, changing batteries
>> will be done
>> on a ramp, they do not have to weigh 2000 pounds.
>> ------------------------------------------------
>> With the new Nickel metel batteries, they would weigh less than 1/2
>> that. Most driving is less than 50 miles, heavey batteries are not
>> needed.
>
>Most cars need to do 300 - 400 miles sometimes. One that can only go 50 is
>useless.
>
Better than 90% of my driving is less than 50 miles per day.
True for most people who do not commute inter-city.
>
>> when you drive to the parking lot at the supper market, for example ,
>> drive to a parking meter, pay a dollar automatically plug in to a
>> parking metter by driving forward , charge your battery while you shop.
>
>Sort out the health and safety issues of that first - also fast recharge
>technology is still some way off.
>
>Graham
>
Tony Wesley
> >The batteries in electric cars weigh 2000 pounds. The battery in the drill
> >weighs about 4 ounces.
>
> Actually, mine weighed about 640 lbs.
Wow! That must have been a big drill!!
:)
Eeyore
Leonard Abbott wrote:
A. They're not - they've heard this nonsense before !
B. As above it's not a new idea.
C. In this case solar PV is a massive waste of money when grid electricity is
available.
Graham
Eeyore
clare, at, snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 13:12:13 GMT, "Windsun" <wind...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Idiot.
> >
> >The batteries in electric cars weigh 2000 pounds. The battery in the drill
> >weighs about 4 ounces.
>
> Actually, mine weighed about 640 lbs.
Yes. A ton of batteries would be insane.
Graham
Eeyore
clare, at, snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 16:20:32 +0000, Eeyore
> <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Leonard Abbott wrote:
> >
> >> the Idiot.is the one that can't accept new ideas.
> >> (Windsun)
> >> The batteries in electric cars weigh 2000 pounds. The battery in the
> >> drill weighs about 4 ounces.
> >> ----------------------------------------------
> >> (Windsun) there is no reason to lift the batteries, changing batteries
> >> will be done
> >> on a ramp, they do not have to weigh 2000 pounds.
> >> ------------------------------------------------
> >> With the new Nickel metel batteries, they would weigh less than 1/2
> >> that. Most driving is less than 50 miles, heavey batteries are not
> >> needed.
> >
> >Most cars need to do 300 - 400 miles sometimes. One that can only go 50 is
> >useless.
>
> Better than 90% of my driving is less than 50 miles per day.
> True for most people who do not commute inter-city.
Fine if you can afford 2 cars then.
TBH I'd not feel comfortable with one with less than 100 mi range though.
I actually do suspect that the 2 car idea may be a way that EVs get used more
regularly.
Graham
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>>>"Tony Wesley" <tonyw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Typical power by a cyclist is 100 watts.
>>>
>>>... Lance might do 100 watts.
>>
>>I do 100, and I'm no Lance.
>
>Constantly?
For a half-hour... 300-500 Calories (a small piece of pumpkin pie :-)
on an elliptical machine which displays watts, pulse rate, and so on.
Nick
Astro
correct.
A good amateur racer can put out 300w for an hour
200w is a decent, steady power output that most conditioned cyclists
can hold indefinitely
At 100w, you're only going abou 15mph, trivial for any regular cyclist.
turning that into useful power is another question entirely. That gets
into all the conversion efficiency considerations. You guys can argue
all day about that.
Leonard Abbott
Graham
I actually do suspect that the 2 car idea may be a way that EVs get used
more regularly.
Here in Texas even the poorest peons drive 2 cars. but if you cant
afford 2 cars. then when you fill up, there would be different
capacities of batteries available. Same size but with different weights.
--------------------------------------------------
The 500 pounders for everyday driving and the 1000 pounder for long
trips.
len
clareatsnyder.on.ca
wrote:
big enough to push a Fiat 124L coupe 50mph for 30 miles, or 30mph for
50 miles. (8 gc2H batteries)
clareatsnyder.on.ca
I've got 2 now. There is NEVER a requirement for both to go over 50
miles in a day. Currently, neither one is electric.
Tony Wesley
Walking at 3 mph is about 100 watts. You're claiming that average bike
rider can't do that??
Tony Wesley
Leonard Abbott wrote:
>Tony Wesley wrote:
>> [...] At 5
>> good hours per day, it will take you 6 days. Plus loses for charging
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Yourfullofcraptoneywhatdoyouhave againstbicyleslenny.
> 5 good hours per day is all you need, there are at least 11 good hours
> every day where Ilive, where do you live in the london fog?
Lenny,
You're ignorant and/or stupid. Ignorance can fixed.
Here's a table of "Solar Insolation for U.S. Major Cities"
http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-insolation-window.html
To pick a city in Texas, San Antonio average 5.3 hours.
Tony Wesley
Leonard Abbott wrote:
> Nick
> Constantly? 75 watts is good. 50 to 60 for the average rider is more
> realistic.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> len= at my age 30 is more realistic, 30 minuets a day, Don't forget
> pedalling cuts that 30 watts in half 15 watts for 30 minutes 3 watts
> will charge the battery in about 1 1/2 hours.
Trouble with math??
15 watts for 30 minutes is 7 1/2 watt hours. You'll need 2.5 hours at
3 watts to recharge that rather trivial amount of energy.
But 30 watts is a very small amount of power. Walking at 3 miles per
hour uses about 100 watts.
Eeyore
clare, at, snyder.on.ca wrote:
I just did 300 miles today. There's still at least 1/4 tank left.
Graham
Windsun
would have.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/smf/index.php
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Leonard Abbott" <leonard...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:28019-454...@storefull-3314.bay.webtv.net...
>
> 3 amp solar panels for $10.
> Baloney.
> ----------------------------------------------
Windsun
evil power and/or oil companies.
If there is money in it, someone, somewhere will do it.
The fact that nobody has - in the US or anyplace else - pretty much
indicates that your ideas are flawed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Leonard Abbott" <leonard...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:28019-454...@storefull-3314.bay.webtv.net...
> America has the technology, it is the political will that is lacking,
> the power companies control the political system.
>
> This is a weakness n democracy, the people have to force the government
> to act. or politicians will set on their ass.
>
Windsun
what you are talking about?
Not likely
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Leonard Abbott" <leonard...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:28019-454...@storefull-3314.bay.webtv.net...
> the Idiot.is the one that can't accept new ideas.
> (Windsun)
> The batteries in electric cars weigh 2000 pounds. The battery in the
> drill weighs about 4 ounces.
> ----------------------------------------------
> (Windsun) there is no reason to lift the batteries, changing batteries
> will be done
> on a ramp, they do not have to weigh 2000 pounds.
> ------------------------------------------------
> With the new Nickel metel batteries, they would weigh less than 1/2
> that. Most driving is less than 50 miles, heavey batteries are not
> needed.
> ---------------------------------------------------
> when you drive to the parking lot at the supper market, for example ,
> drive to a parking meter, pay a dollar automatically plug in to a
> parking metter by driving forward , charge your battery while you shop.
> len
>
Windsun
Get an electic car to save oil.
Put an oil powered generator in the back seat to run while driving to charge
the batteries.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Leonard Abbott" <leonard...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:28022-45...@storefull-3314.bay.webtv.net...
> wind
>
> Most cars need to do 300 - 400 miles sometimes. One that can only go 50
> is useless
> --------------------------------------------------
> I don't remember ever driving 300 miles before filling up, if you needed
> to go out of town, you could carry a small generator, to charge as you
> drive, or even pull a small trailer with a small generator.
>
clareatsnyder.on.ca
wrote:
>Now that has to be the stupidest thing I have heard from you yet.
>
>Get an electic car to save oil.
>
>Put an oil powered generator in the back seat to run while driving to charge
>the batteries.
>
>
Yup - it's called a Hybrid. You can get away with MUCH less horsepower
than you would use on a gasoline car, and have the same performance on
less fuel.The generator engine runs at maximum efficiency at all times
and has no requirements for "driveability" and accelleration etc.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Leonard Abbott" <leonard...@webtv.net> wrote in message
>news:28022-45...@storefull-3314.bay.webtv.net...
>> wind
>>
>> Most cars need to do 300 - 400 miles sometimes. One that can only go 50
>> is useless
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> I don't remember ever driving 300 miles before filling up, if you needed
>> to go out of town, you could carry a small generator, to charge as you
>> drive, or even pull a small trailer with a small generator.
>>
>
Eeyore
Windsun wrote:
> Now that has to be the stupidest thing I have heard from you yet.
>
> Get an electic car to save oil.
>
> Put an oil powered generator in the back seat to run while driving to charge
> the batteries.
Maybe he hasn't heard of hybrids ?
Graham
Windsun
What he said was an all-electric car, and then run it from a generator.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
<clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:fjoik2h61bh52ksm1...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 02:38:00 GMT, "Windsun" <wind...@earthlink.net>
> Yup - it's called a Hybrid. You can get away with MUCH less horsepower
Windsun
to power it. But he also wants everyone to swap out a 1000 pound battery
bank every day at the local charging station....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:45496B9A...@hotmail.com...
Leonard Abbott
Graham
30 mpg = $60 0 time for fill ups
electric car 3 fill ups time ;10 minutes
I WOULD STILL PREFERE THE ELECTRIC CAR. len
Leonard Abbott
(Windsun)
charge the batteries.
----------------------------------------------
in the glove box Stupid!
Most people never drive more than 50 miles for a trip, I live in Texas,
wide open spaces , still I don't hardly ever drive more than 30 miles
before giving one of my 2 cars a rest.
Owning a 10K generator is a good investment, in case of a hurricane, ice
storm, or for camping. IF I had an electric car probably wouldn't need
it, but once or twice a year.
that sounds smart to me, if it would drive the price of gas down.
Leonard Abbott
Maybe he hasn't heard of hybrids ?
Graham
Can you remove the generator, for camping on a hybrid. or use it if you
forget to pay your light bill..
and how do you bread a hybrid?
lenny just joking
Tony Wesley
Leonard Abbott wrote:
> I just did 300 miles today. There's still at least 1/4 tank left.
> Graham
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 30 mpg = $60 0 time for fill ups
> electric car 3 fill ups time ;10 minutes
You're going recharge the batteries in 10 minutes?
Let's do some math. Assume some batteries made of unobtanium that will
accept a charge at that rate:
One web site says you can drive 2.9 miles on a kilowatt-hour.
So 100 miles / 2.9 miles/kHr = ~34.5 kWh. Let's call it 30 kWh.
To recharge in 10 minutes, what kind of wattage will you need?
30kWh / 0.166 h = 180 kilowatts.
Damn. Going to need a heavy duty extension cord.
> I WOULD STILL PREFERE THE ELECTRIC CAR. len
Sure. Fantasy is normally better than real world stuff.
Leonard Abbott
The air conditioning compressor in your car uses about 6 hp lowering
your mpg.
Here is how to eliminate it and still air condition your car. .
----------------------------------------------------
Cooling starts with hot compressed freon,
cooled, then decompressed. You can heat the gas by compressing it . or
you can heat compressed gas, and get the same results.
---------------------------------------------------
There is plenty of heat in your engine, that is why you need a
radiator.to keep it cool.
If the engine coolant was replaced with freon, engine heat would raise
the temperature, and compress the freon at the same time.
-----------------------------------------------------
The water pump could also be eliminated, because heated freon is a very
good source of energy to drive a circulating pump.
--------------------------------------------------
Compressed freon, cooled then decompressed would have a temperature drop
to below freezing. it would be necessary to mix some heated freon with
the cold freon, before it is returned to the engine, after it had cooled
your car's interior.
LA
Leonard Abbott
not about charging them Dah!
len
Eeyore
Tony Wesley wrote:
> Leonard Abbott wrote:
> > I just did 300 miles today. There's still at least 1/4 tank left.
> > Graham
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> > 30 mpg = $60 0 time for fill ups
> > electric car 3 fill ups time ;10 minutes
>
> You're going recharge the batteries in 10 minutes?
>
> Let's do some math. Assume some batteries made of unobtanium that will
> accept a charge at that rate:
>
> One web site says you can drive 2.9 miles on a kilowatt-hour.
> So 100 miles / 2.9 miles/kHr = ~34.5 kWh. Let's call it 30 kWh.
> To recharge in 10 minutes, what kind of wattage will you need?
>
> 30kWh / 0.166 h = 180 kilowatts.
>
> Damn. Going to need a heavy duty extension cord.
It's more realistic to think in terms of a couple of hours for a 'fast'
recharge.
You could do that with 15kW. That's still one chunky extension lead though !
> > I WOULD STILL PREFERE THE ELECTRIC CAR. len
>
> Sure. Fantasy is normally better than real world stuff.
Always has been and current electric cars are indeed *fantastic*.
Graham
Eeyore
Leonard Abbott wrote:
>
> (Windsun)
> Now that has to be the stupidest thing I have heard from you yet.
> Get an electric car to save oil.
> Put an oil powered generator in the back seat to run while driving to
> charge the batteries.
> ----------------------------------------------
> Why are Europeans still living in the dark ages?. The generator would go
> in the glove box Stupid!
In the glove box ?
What's that ? A 10W generator ?
Graham
sylvan butler
> Harry Chickpea wrote:
>> Constantly? 75 watts is good. 50 to 60 for the average rider is more
>> realistic.
>
> Walking at 3 mph is about 100 watts. You're claiming that average bike
> rider can't do that??
"average" means? And for how long?
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/question658.htm
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/~et181/hpv/hpv.html
-------
Notice from the graph that an average "healthy human" can produce a
steady 0.1 horsepower for a full eight hour period, while a "first class
athlete" can produce 0.4 horsepower for a similar period. Note that each
data point on the curves represents an exhausted human. No more power is
available without some rest and recovery. Thus at 0.4 hp the "healthy
human" becomes exhausted within 10 minutes! Try to decide where you fit
in this curve.
...
we can apply the conversion 0.1 hp = 75 W (approximately) in reading the
graph.
-------
http://www.los-gatos.ca.us/davidbu/pedgen.html
-------
Burst output: 25 amps at 17 volts (425 Watts)
30 minute average output (back when I was in shape) 150 Watts
-------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance
-------
most efficient self-powered means of transportation.
...
On firm, flat, ground, a 70 kg man requires about 100 watts to walk at 5
km/h. That same man on a bicycle, on the same ground, with the same
power output, can average 25 km/h, so energy expenditure in terms of
kcal/kg/km is roughly one-fifth as much.
...
The average "in-shape" man can produce about 3 watts/kg for more than an
hour (e.g., around 200 watts for a 70 kg rider)
-------
http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/bikepwr.htm
-------
This is a computer program called "bike_power", which calculates power
output and power consumption for bicycling. You give it things like
riding speed, body weight, hill grade, and wind speed. The program
prints out a table with power output and power consumption, broken out
in various ways.
...
How much power was LeMond putting out in the final 1989 TdF time trial,
riding at 34 mph with say a 5 mph tailwind:
C> bike_pwr -D -vm34 -wc174 -wm21 -a0.17 -r0.004 -vw-5
mph F_lb P_a P_r P_g P_t P hp heat BM C Cal/hr
34.0 7.2 434 53 0 26 513 0.69 1546 111 2169 1865
Answer:
513 Watts, which is over 2/3 horsepower. He was burning about 1865
calories per hour to produce that power. Frank Berto in Bicycling
magazine says it was 3/4 horsepower, but perhaps he understates the
significance of aero bars and tailwind.
-------
sdb
--
Wanted: Omnibook 800 & accessories, cheap, working or not
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com
Arnold Walker
ammonia or
almost anything other than freon.But doable.Some like BMW are experimenting
with using that
heat to turn a co-power turbine instead of cooling.(double the horsepower
off the same
burn in a gas/diesel engine being the goal----BMW only gets 114% not 200% at
this point....
me(diesel),they(gas) and others are still trying for the goal.) Turbines
require hydrostatic
tranmisssions for constant velicity in a ground vehicle like is used in
Abram tanks...give or take scale of size.
Canners used steam vacuum to cool products after cooking ,for decades
......so your engine might not need freon to cool ,just water.
An air conditioning coil can handle the 29inch vaccuum required with water
to cool......using a 3stage vaccuum inductor(sometimes
called vaccuum injector) running 50-100psi steam, like one would get with IC
exhaust heat boilers .
I seem to remember somebody working on your freon idea from five years
back,but don't remember details.
Other than it had some sort of electronic control of the expansion
valve(cold engines put out less heat that hot ones) ,among other
things.And mounted like a extra "muffler" under the the car.
Not sure, if it was plugged into coolant system.....but it was billed as a
solidstate air conditioner.
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http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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Tony Wesley
sylvan butler wrote:
> On 1 Nov 2006 14:38:22 -0800, Tony Wesley <tonyw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Harry Chickpea wrote:
> >> Constantly? 75 watts is good. 50 to 60 for the average rider is more
> >> realistic.
> >
> > Walking at 3 mph is about 100 watts. You're claiming that average bike
> > rider can't do that??
>
> "average" means? And for how long?
Back in
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.homepower/msg/c3a001b24c16ba70
I postulated 1 hour at 100 watts.
>From the sources you posted, some of which I'm familiar with, it's
clear that 100 watts for an hour is no big deal.
Thanks for the research.
Solar Flare
requirage?
"Tony Wesley" <tonyw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162472659....@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Solar Flare
try it. It may fit you.
"Windsun" <wind...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:eQc2h.1045$0r....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Solar Flare
listen to you?
"Windsun" <wind...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:VMc2h.1044$0r....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Nick Pine
in Rochester NY with 4 ft^2 of vent area at the top and bottom of a small
2-story house with 1200 pounds of water in 4" PVC pipes under a shiny
ceiling to store overnight winter heat from a sunspace shows the house
can be comfortable with no AC and 20 kWh/day of internal heat gain from
electrical use or unshaded windows, with about 600 cfm of natural airflow
for about 14 hours per day, when it's cooler outdoors. Doubling the vent
area lowers the max indoor temp about 1 F. Doubling thermal mass drops it
4 F. The mass stays well above the average 61 F dewpoint.
There will be a 1000 gallon heat storage tank in the basement for 5 cloudy
days and hot water for showers, heated with 64' of fin-tube pipe in an air
heater inside a sunspace, but we want to keep that hot for DHW in summertime.
As an alternative, one of two stratified tanks in the basement might be cool
in summertime.
20 PI=4*ATN(1)
30 W=2*PI/24'angular freq (radians)
40 C=3200'house thermal mass (Btu/F)
50 G=120'house conductance to outdoors (Btu/h-F)
60 AV=4'vent area (ft^2)
70 HV=16'vent height difference (feet)
80 ECON=600'internal electrical use (kWh/month)
90 DGAIN=3412*ECON/30'internal heat gain (Btu/day)
100 HGAIN=DGAIN/24'internal heat gain (Btu/h)
110 TR=70.2'average July temp in Rochester NY (F)
120 FOR D= 1 TO 10'simulate for 10 average days
130 FOR H=0 TO 23
140 T=70.2+(80.7-70.2)*SIN(W*H)'outdoor temp (F)
150 Q=HGAIN+(T-TR)*G'heatflow from walls into room (Btu)
160 IF T>TR THEN CFM=0:GOTO 190'no venting
170 CFM=16.6*AV*SQR(HV*(TR-T))'vent airflow (cfm)
180 Q=Q-CFM*(TR-T)'lower heat gain by venting
190 TR=TR+Q/C'new house temp (F)
200 IF D=10 AND H MOD 2 = 0 THEN PRINT T,TR,CFM
210 NEXT H
220 NEXT D
hour outdoors indoors cfm
0 70.2 (F) 68.5808 (F) 0
2 75.45 70.7387 0
4 79.29327 73.0518 0
6 80.7 75.34551 0
8 79.29326 77.41766 0
10 75.45 78.69283 449.4819
12 70.2 76.91831 751.8333
14 64.94999 72.89406 843.9746
16 61.10673 68.78081 823.9965
18 59.7 66.10492 727.5638
20 61.10674 65.48225 558.7523
22 64.95001 66.67577 258.8256
When I disabled venting by commenting out line 180 above,
the house got very uncomfortable:
0 70.2 92.42486
2 75.45 92.82798
4 79.29327 93.51543
6 80.7 94.30314
8 79.29326 94.98013
10 75.45 95.36509
12 70.2 95.35495
14 64.94999 94.9525
16 61.10673 94.26566
18 59.7 93.47852
20 61.10674 92.80206
22 64.95001 92.41759
So we might have a 2'x2' vent with a one-way plastic film damper near
the floor that lets cool air flow into the house, with a plywood door
or a 2-watt motorized foamboard damper over that which can be closed
if the house becomes too cool, eg less than 65 F.
Nick
George Ghio
the walk.
This sounds like a weather forecast. Not a great recommendation.
Why don't you build it, then you can show us your theory and the reality
side by side.
I can tell you that it will work but will not match your prediction.
--
Solar Flare
monoxide build up.
"George Ghio" <gh...@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote in message
news:455b8cb2$0$21174$8826...@free.teranews.com...
Abby Normal
Lol never argue with Nick when he is deriving PI
Solar Flare
"Abby Normal" <a_bee_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1163680017.1...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
CM
>> electric car 3 fill ups time ;10 minutes
>
> You're going recharge the batteries in 10 minutes?
>
> Let's do some math. Assume some batteries made of unobtanium that will
> accept a charge at that rate:
No Unobtainium used. Both Toshiba and A123 have announced lithium batteries
that can be charged in 10 minutes - or less.
> One web site says you can drive 2.9 miles on a kilowatt-hour.
> So 100 miles / 2.9 miles/kHr = ~34.5 kWh. Let's call it 30 kWh.
> To recharge in 10 minutes, what kind of wattage will you need?
>
> 30kWh / 0.166 h = 180 kilowatts.
>
> Damn. Going to need a heavy duty extension cord.
For that reason, a quick charge car is unlikely. Those quick charge
batteries were designed for small low power applications. Although they
could be used for a car, the typical electrical supply won't support that
kind of power demand.
So instead, we'll use a longer charge while parked. And could "top off" the
charge every night, if desired.
Or go to a specially equipped station and swap batteries.
>> I WOULD STILL PREFERE THE ELECTRIC CAR. len
>
> Sure. Fantasy is normally better than real world stuff.
Too bad. It's already real.
CM
Derek Broughton
>> You're going recharge the batteries in 10 minutes?
>>
>> Let's do some math. Assume some batteries made of unobtanium that will
>> accept a charge at that rate:
>
> No Unobtainium used. Both Toshiba and A123 have announced lithium
> batteries that can be charged in 10 minutes - or less.
>>
>> 30kWh / 0.166 h = 180 kilowatts.
>>
>> Damn. Going to need a heavy duty extension cord.
>
> For that reason, a quick charge car is unlikely. Those quick charge
> batteries were designed for small low power applications. Although they
> could be used for a car, the typical electrical supply won't support that
> kind of power demand.
Have they beaten the lifetime problem? Lithium batteries currently can be
used for about 3 years, under the best of conditions. Toyota's had cars
running twice that with their NiCad batteries.
--
derek
clareatsnyder.on.ca
Toyota doesn't use NiCad. They are Nimh last I heard.
Derek Broughton
Sorry, you're right - but the point being that they're already lasting a lot
longer than any Lithium batteries I've used.
--
derek
daestrom
"Nick Pine" <ni...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:ejer0h$j...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
Nick, like many of your 'calculations', you use simple averages and assume a
lot.
Rochestor is very near Oswego (where I live). While the statistical
*average* temperature swing may be what you've assumed, it is far from
common. Temperatures during the day often reach into the mid-90's in
July/August. A two-week long 'heat wave' that gets into the 90's every day
and stays above the 70's at night is very typical each summer. When
considering buying A/C, I wrestled with this. The 'averages' say it
shouldn't ever be very uncomfortable, yet the truth is different than the
'averages'. Sure, some years the daily highs are rather modest and only get
up to the mid 80's, but other years are 'killer' heat waves into the high
90's.
daestrom
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>... the truth is different than the 'averages'
Sure. This house should have a window AC or a stratified tank
for non-average July days.
Nick
Solar Flare
June 12 to October 1 one year. You ain't gonna' keep the cool that
long.
<nicks...@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:ejqacs$n...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
CM
> be
> used for about 3 years, under the best of conditions. Toyota's had cars
> running twice that with their NiCad batteries.
Toyota is using NiMH batteries (approx. 3x the storage capacity of NiCad)
in their hybrid cars, and maximize their life with careful battery
management, avoiding charging over 80%, preventing the charge from dropping
under 40%, and avoiding excessive currents. Similar battery management
schemes are being developed for lithium batteries to make them practical
for automotive use, and with proper management should last considerably
longer than 3 years.
For powering laptops and other portable devices, LiIon batteries often go
from 100% to almost exhausted to get the maximum runtime. Long runtime and
safe operation is the goal, long life for the batteries used is not. Not
suprising that a laptop/cell phone/cordless drill batteries don't last too
long.
CM
Derek Broughton
>> Have they beaten the lifetime problem? Lithium batteries currently can
>> be
>> used for about 3 years, under the best of conditions. Toyota's had cars
>> running twice that with their NiCad batteries.
>
> Toyota is using NiMH batteries (approx. 3x the storage capacity of NiCad)
> in their hybrid cars, and maximize their life with careful battery
> management, avoiding charging over 80%, preventing the charge from
> dropping under 40%, and avoiding excessive currents. Similar battery
> management schemes are being developed for lithium batteries to make them
> practical for automotive use, and with proper management should last
> considerably longer than 3 years.
>
> For powering laptops and other portable devices, LiIon batteries often go
> from 100% to almost exhausted to get the maximum runtime.
It doesn't seem to matter. I _don't_ drain my laptop LIon batteries, and
they don't seem to get an appreciably longer life than anybody else's.
otoh, my cell phone battery is healthier than my wife's - same phone, same
age, much lower usage but charged almost as often. I know Toyota's car
batteries are doing much better than similar batteries in many other
situations, so I'm prepared to believe they could do the same for Li with
good management. I was just wondering if that had actually been
established.
--
derek
daestrom
With weather around here, two weeks out of the year you have 'uncomfortably
hot' weather. Often we just *manually* ventilate (i.e. open a window). Has
lots of other benefits too. Manually shutting the windows in the morning,
avoid large heat-generating activities (oven, dryer) and it can stay
comfortable till afternoon. In all but the 'heat wave' fluctuations, no
special equipment needed. Opening five 'double-hung' windows on first
floor, and five more on the second floor. More flow than your setup, and
able to capitialize on the prevailing breeze.
BTW, your time-of-day temperature in line 140 seems a bit odd. It reaches
maximum at hour 6 and minimum at hour 18. You might try...
140 T=70.2+(80.7-70.2)*SIN(W*(H+8))'outdoor temp (F)
instead so that peak temperature at least occurs in the afternoon (when I
look at my local recorded temperature, the air temperature peaks between
1400 and 1500 most summer days, and minimum around 0400, barring any weather
front moving into the area).
Nor do I see any solar-gain. This seems like a major oversight.
BTW, we (and Rochester) enjoy a significant tempering effect from the large
body of water on our shore. Here in Oswego, we are routinely several
degrees (up to 10F) cooler than Syracuse (50 miles inland, nearest NWS
station). Of course, the same body of water has some other side-effects at
other times of the year (e.g. can you spell 'lake-effect snow band'??).
Staying comfortable in the summer is no serious feat in this climate. Try
Albany NY or Detroit MI (about the same latitude). Without a tempering body
of water, their extremes are much more severe.
daestrom
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>... Nor do I see any solar-gain. This seems like a major oversight.
Yeah. You missed it :-)
Nick
Abby Normal
He always seems to neglect solar gains, works on a "Conductance" based
on temperature differential only, and of course average temperatures.
May work when it is 'average cold' over night in heating system but
flops on cooling every time.
Abby Normal
neglect the sun in coolng.
Abby Normal
Derek Broughton
> Except in heating he always counts on the sun in his schemes but
> neglect the sun in coolng.
"He?" Please learn how to post. This makes no sense.
<plonk>
--
derek
Abby Normal
I know how to post, but the problem is most likely "He" meaning Nick
Pine cross posts all the time. I only ever see the thread with him as
the original poster even though it ,may have originated else where, and
if you follow up the text.
So if it is still not clear who he is , just 'go up the ladder' and
look for the guy who uses GW BASIC and derives PI all the time.
Solar Flare
the last two years. This is as far as his technology goes sometimes.
Forgive him, he is of Brit decent. He thins it shows intelligence.
"Abby Normal" <a_bee_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1164215210.8...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
daestrom
<nicks...@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:ejvroo$o...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>... Nor do I see any solar-gain. This seems like a major oversight.
>
> Yeah. You missed it :-)
>
LIAR! Or is the little smiley supposed to mean it's okay for you to make
mistakes and claim it's my fault?
I didn't miss it, you didn't put it in. All you have is an overall
'conductance' between outside temperature and house temperature. There's a
difference between admitting that you left something out, and claiming that
I overlooked it. Identify the line of code that considers solar input in
your original listing. Or admit that you omitted it. Don't go around
implying that others are too ignorant to understand you when it is your
error.
Another point; you've averaged the electrical heat gain over 24 hours.
Totally unrealistic for most folks. This error causes your model to
underpredict the daily high indoor temperature, while overpredicting the
daily low. Why not weight the electrical heat gain a bit differently to be
more realistic, say 1/2 the daily usage from 1400 to 2200 and 1/2 over the
other 16 hours? Or you could claim that high-heat producing activities are
done between 0800 and 1200 (before the 'heat of the day' sets in). But
regardless, it is totally unrealistic to claim that electrical heat gain at
0300 is the same as 1800 every day. So the daily variations of indoor
temperature are useless.
If you're trying to calculate the hourly changes in temperature, you *have*
to consider the inputs on the same time scale. In order to calculate house
temperature on an hourly basis, you must consider the heat gains/losses on
an hourly basis as well. You've done this with the outdoor air temperature
(albeit out of phase by 6 hours because of the way you used the 'sin'
function), but you haven't done so with the electrical heat gain, nor human
heat inputs (another input you've ignored).
Why ignore human/animal heat gain? You've posted calculations in the past
claiming to heat an 8' cube in the winter with little more than human and
pet heat input. So you've argued that those factors can be important heat
loads in a well designed home, but you selectively ignore them when it
doesn't suit your purpose?
Bottom line is, opening some conventional windows does a better job
controlling summer house temperatures in this climate than your
'ventilation' idea.
Folks like you that claim to have a lot of answers, and write shoddy code to
'prove' it, can be pretty annoying. Junk science is all it is. Yes heat
transfer and fluid flow is a mature, well respected science. But applying
first-year formulas and simplifing to the point of garbage-in / garbage-out
and then holding it out for others to show them how 'smart' you are is
pretty lame. The lay person may actually think your answers are meaningful
since you do use valid formulas. Unfortunately, this is the 'junk
scientist' at his worst. They have enough credibility using some basic
undergraduate level stuff to convince the 'masses' they know what they're
talking about, but they ignore so many factors (too hard for you??) that the
results are not much better than reading tea leaves. And the poor layman
can't tell the difference and may actually build your systems; only to be
disappointed.
Consultants used the same sort of junk science in the late '70's to sell
solar systems to people after the energy crisis. And when those systems
didn't perform anywhere near the claims of the consultants, solar got a lot
of bad press. It's just recovering from that stigma, yet here you are
spouting the same junk science to a whole new generation.
So come on, clean up your act; do the calculations considering *all* the
significant factors; take the time to critique your own work pointing out
its limitations; -or- just admit your doing back-of-the-envelope guesses
that aren't really useful and be done with it.
daestrom
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>
><nicks...@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
>news:ejvroo$o...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
>> daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>>... Nor do I see any solar-gain. This seems like a major oversight.
>>
>> Yeah. You missed it :-)
>
>LIAR! Or is the little smiley supposed to mean it's okay for you to make
>mistakes and claim it's my fault?
Can you say "unshaded windows"? :-)
>Another point; you've averaged the electrical heat gain over 24 hours...
Where should we stop on the way to infinite refinement? I did a TMY2
simulation for heating. Cooling is less interesting, on 70 F July days.
>... opening some conventional windows does a better job controlling
>summer house temperatures in this climate than your 'ventilation' idea.
Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?
Nick
Jeff
> I have wirnesses derek do this post master thing to about 12 people in
> the last two years. This is as far as his technology goes sometimes.
> Forgive him, he is of Brit decent. He thins it shows intelligence.
There's no reason to plonk someone for one bad post. With that said,
the post in question makes no sense out of context and is double posted
to boot. The OP would do well to emulate posting standards if he wants
to participate in any technical group. I've just had a quick look
through the OPs postings in the group (alt.solar) and there is nothing
there that indicates he knows how to post.
Jeff
Abby Normal
The double post was courtesy of google. If it was not crossposted I
would not even be in the Solar or Frugal newsgroups.
In case it was confusing, I will summarize. Nick Pine always likes to
get his elaborate heating schemes to work courtesy of solar gain and
internal gains, then puts forth cooling scenarios that cannot deal with
the same solar gain or internal heat gains that are leaned on like a
crutch to get his heating schemes to work.
George Ghio
heating schemes to work. He posts pages of calculations in the hope
someone will then do the work to prove his shonky theories work.
He has never done the work himself.