Generac iX2000
Dan Lanciani
lights. With a couple of hundred watts of load I notice that the lights
flicker slightly but annoyingly. For a normal generator I'd let it slide,
but I thought the point of these inverter designs was "clean" power. Is
slight flickering typical of the iX2000 or did I get a bad one?
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
ransley
Did you check the voltage it puts out loaded, is that unit like the
Honda inverter that varies rpm to keep voltage constant. On constant
speed units to get 120v 60hz you need 3600 rpm .
ransley
I just looked at a spec sheet and I think its like the Honda EU series
so if its not giving 120v 60 or lights flicker its a defect
LSMFT
Inverters put out a crappy sign wave. Looks like a stepped pyramid.
--
LSMFT
I haven't spoken to my wife in 18 months.
I don't like to interrupt her.
steamer
research the brand, re: service and spare parts. I bought a used RV with an
ailing Generac and I found it was *impossible* to get a response from
Generac. Best I've been able to determine: the company's been absorbed into
another company and new co doesn't give a shit. Also there's no place in
*my* neck of the woods that will service it. Get a better brand next time;
what's that quote... '..the bitterness of poor quality remains long after
the sweetness of low price is forgotten'. Heh.
--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Didja see my stuff
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : at 2010 Maker Faire??
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---
Tony
If it doesn't put out a real sine wave instead of a stepped one you
could probably do better with a cheaper brushless AC generator.
Jim Yanik
news:ztnTn.30272$%u7.1...@newsfe14.iad:
> Dan Lanciani wrote:
>> I picked one of these up at Lowes to temporarily power some
>> incandescent lights. With a couple of hundred watts of load I notice
>> that the lights flicker slightly but annoyingly. For a normal
>> generator I'd let it slide, but I thought the point of these inverter
>> designs was "clean" power. Is slight flickering typical of the
>> iX2000 or did I get a bad one?
>>
>> Dan Lanciani
>> ddl@danlan.*com
>
> Inverters put out a crappy sign wave. Looks like a stepped pyramid.
>
that shouldnt affect an -incandescent- .
at 60hz,the filament will average out the waveform.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Jim Wilkins
> ...
> that shouldnt affect an -incandescent- .
> at 60hz,the filament will average out the waveform.
I use a light bulb to load UPCs that I'm testing, and noticed that the
bulb brightness is very sensitive to the voltage and width of the
square output pulse. The bulb responds to changes that are barely
visible on the scope.
jsw
Tony
Ah, I read that wrong. I guess I was just assuming fluorescent.
Hustlin' Hank
Before you adjust the Governor, or change anything...............You
might want to put more of a load on it. A couple hundred watts isn't
much. Mine ( 3500 watt) did the same thing with only a couple lights
on it. I added more load and the flicker went away.
Hank
The Daring Dufas
"UPC's" Universal Product Codes?
TDD
David Nebenzahl
> Dan Lanciani wrote:
>
>> I picked one of these up at Lowes to temporarily power some incandescent
>> lights. With a couple of hundred watts of load I notice that the lights
>> flicker slightly but annoyingly. For a normal generator I'd let it slide,
>> but I thought the point of these inverter designs was "clean" power. Is
>> slight flickering typical of the iX2000 or did I get a bad one?
>
> If it doesn't put out a real sine wave instead of a stepped one you
> could probably do better with a cheaper brushless AC generator.
By "stepped" you mean a square wave, no?
But even if the inverter outputs a square wave, that still shouldn't
cause flickering with incandescent lights. I'm going to guess that
you're going to need a signal with a frequency down around 10 Hz or less
to see that. Dunno what that could be.
OP: you don't happen to have access to a 'scope or a signal analyzer, do
you? Maybe know someone who owns one? It'd be interesting to connect a
scope and see what the waveform actually looks like.
--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.
- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
Dan Lanciani
| On Jun 20, 3:51=A0am, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
| > I picked one of these up at Lowes to temporarily power some incandescent
| s
| > flicker slightly but annoyingly. =A0For a normal generator I'd let it sli=
| de,
| > but I thought the point of these inverter designs was "clean" power. =A0I=
| s
| > slight flickering typical of the iX2000 or did I get a bad one?
| >
| ani
| > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ddl@danla=
| n.*com
|
| Did you check the voltage it puts out loaded, is that unit like the
| Honda inverter that varies rpm to keep voltage constant. On constant
| speed units to get 120v 60hz you need 3600 rpm .
It is basically a clone of the Honda, but the equavalent of econo-throttle
was off. The voltage was something reasonable, 118V I think. I actually
have a smaller Honda (1000VA) but I never used it for lights. I suppose I
could take it to the site for comparison. I was tempted to order the larger
Honda, but the Generac was available and in stock on a direct line from
where I live to where I needed it. :)
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Dan Lanciani
Indeed. I once got a Best FERRUPS online UPS because everybody told me
the quality was spectacular. The first thing I tried was a 100W light
bulb, and interrupting mains power caused something way beyond a flicker,
almost to the point of a double blink. I was disappointed, but then the
same everybody told me that lights were very sensitive and I shouldn't
worry about it. If this is the same kind of thing I don't want to spend
a lot of time trying to "fix" it. In particular, I don't want to end
up with the maufacturer swapping a "reconditioned" unit (that behaves
the same but is all beat up) for my nice new one because they don't want
to admit that the lights flicker...
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
ransley
> point of sale if there are problems. Call the number in your owner's
> pamphlet before you do anything.
If he just bought it he should return it, those call us first
statements are to avoid getting the unit returned to the company ,
rather you go through months of new parts.
Jim
z
news:135...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM:
return it ASAP. You bought it to run some simple lights and it didn't do
the job -- so the various reasons why it failed don't help your lights.
Get another one and if it fails get a different brand.
just saying what i'd do is all.. best of luck
RamRod Sword of Baal
"z" <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9D9DEF7A851...@216.196.97.130...
I find the flicker in incandescent lamps is caused by low frequency in my
case.
I have a 28 Kw Diesel generator and when I load it quite a lot the frequency
(Hz) drops a bit, as the diesel engine governor lets the motor slow down a
bit on heavy current draw.
Now it is not all that much, here in Australia we have 50 cycle power and as
my 4 pole genny has to maintain 1500 RPM to hold that.
I have set up the speed slightly to try and keep it up, so lightly loaded it
runs at around 53 cycles per second, but under heavy load it may drop down
to 48 cycles, and although that is not much, I note there is a slight
flickering in the incandescent lamps when it is heavily loaded.
It does not worry me as the generator is simply an emergency standby unit.
There is no problem with the voltage and it remains quite steady, within a
couple of volts of the requires 415/240 volts.
If you have flicker in your lights while running on your genny, if you can
get hold of a frequency meter, it might pay to check and see if it is
holding at the requires frequency while loaded.
Maybe the inverter is not putting out the correct frequency. If you are in
the USA the frequency (cycles) should be 60 Hz.
Sorry, I have no idea what the effect of 'square sine wave' has on the
incandescent lamps, that is if your generator is supplying' square sine
wave'.
I have been told some electric motors do not like square wave power supply,
especially refrigeration motors.
----------------
I do have a 2.5 Kw inverter (24/240 volt) and have had no problems running
the fridge and a small window air conditioning unit from it, but it is a
'true sine wave' inverter. My only problem is that I do not have enough
battery power with 4 x T 105 batteries (4 x 6V 225 Ah) , but that is
another story.
I have never checked the output frequency of the inverter, but I do not have
lights on the circuitry.
If I ever get around to installing that small transfer switch which I have
for the inverter, I will find out, I guess.
Jim Wilkins
wrote:
> ...
> I do have a 2.5 Kw inverter (24/240 volt) and have had no problems running
> the fridge and a small window air conditioning unit from it, but it is a
> 'true sine wave' inverter. My only problem is that I do not have enough
> battery power with 4 x T 105 batteries (4 x 6V 225 Ah) , but that is
> another story.
How to you measure the Amp-Hour capacity of the batteries to know when
to replace them?
I know the laboratory methods but not a simple one I could suggest for
'civilian' use.
jsw
vaughn
"Jim Wilkins" <kb1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:571ae146-f941-4579...@i31g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 21, 5:12 am, "RamRod Sword of Baal" <ram...@truthonly.com>
>How to you measure the Amp-Hour capacity of the batteries to know when
>to replace them? I know the laboratory methods but not a simple one I could
>suggest for
>'civilian' use.
I use a plain old automotive load tester (Around $20.00 from HF). Yes, it does
nothing to test the actual amp-hour capacity of the battery. What it is
actually doing is testing the internal resistance of the battery, which seems to
give me a usable reading on the battery's overall condition, especially if you
bothered to write down last year's reading. If gives me far more information
than a simple voltage reading!
Vaughn
Jim Wilkins
I think the capacity it shows is proportional to the remaining active
plate material, less means higher resistance, lower loaded voltage.
They do give a good quick check when buying used batteries swapped out
on a maintenance schedule but I've found that I could nurse one they
indicate as bad along for several years with equalizing charges, and
moving it to a lower draw inverter. When I trade one in it's DEAD.
As you say though the voltage means little, the quantity of charge
needed to reach that voltage is much more important.
When I repaired power wheelchairs I used a resistive load tester like
that to check the batteries. In that instance the tester approximated
the current demand from the traction motors. Swapping a questionable
battery was better than having the owner get stuck.
OTOH for [other] batteries the computer-controlled test stand
discharged and recharged the pack and recorded the current vs voltage
characteristic. This is necessary to reset the Fuel Gauge. It measured
the internal resistance by the slope between discharge pulses at low
and high current to cancel out other effects. An accurate measurement
required a programmable electronic load and a digital storage
oscilloscope.
If you have only the scope you could use a small steady load and a
larger one on a switch and record the step height, but you still
should have a current probe and not depend on E=IR; you probably can't
measure very low R well enough.
That's where I saw that the internal resistance a load tester actually
measures isn't always a good indication of remaining capacity.
jsw
RamRod Sword of Baal
"Jim Wilkins" <kb1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:571ae146-f941-4579...@i31g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
No idea, sorry, I have this set up as a standby system, and it is hardly
ever used, I put it in before I installed my diesel generator.
The batteries have only been used a few times and I just keep them charged
up and occasionally use the system to run the computers in the house.
Jim Wilkins
wrote:> ...
> The batteries have only been used a few times and I just keep them charged
> up and occasionally use the system to run the computers in the house.
The quick, crude test I use for inverter batteries is to run the
computer off them and have it monitor its own run time somehow, like
write a program that saves the timestamp to a file once a minute.
jsw
Johnny B Good
from "RamRod Sword of Baal" <ram...@truthonly.com> contains these words:
====snip====
That sounds like an issue due to the prime mover. The issue being the
effect on rotational speed by the power stroke of a single cylinder 4
stroke engine when loaded close to its maximum torque limit. An effect
that's quite possibly aggravated by the VR's dynamic behaviour under
such rapid modulations of rotational speed imparted every other half
revolution by a single cylinder 4 stroke prime mover.
It's even possible that the speed controlled govenor arrangement may
have some overshoot in its response curve under heavy loading, an effect
that's more difficult to tame at 1500rpm or slower speeds than at
3000rpm unless a proportionally heavier flywheel is employed.
Any such modulations at half frequency (25 or 30 Hertz) become readily
apparent in the light output of incandescent lamps. The effect is more
obvious with 240v lamps than with 120v lamps due to the longer and
_thinner_ filaments required for the higher voltage supply.
HTH
You
<571ae146-f941-4579...@i31g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Jim Wilkins <kb1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How to you measure the Amp-Hour capacity of the batteries to know when
> to replace them?
>
> I know the laboratory methods but not a simple one I could suggest for
> 'civilian' use.
>
> jsw
The "Big Boys" use a Battery Impedance Meter.... But most regular folks
just do a 1 Hour Discharge Test at 20 Amps and see where the batteries
voltage comes in compared to when they were NEW.....
RamRod Sword of Baal
"Johnny B Good" <jcs.comp...@plugzetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3130303037373...@plugzetnet.co.uk...
In my case I am sure it is just the governor, as I am running a 28 Kw 4
cylinder Harz Diesel, but as I said I am not concerned about a few cycles
difference and certainly not worried enough to change the governor.
Robert Green
news:135...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM...
> I picked one of these up at Lowes to temporarily power some incandescent
> lights. With a couple of hundred watts of load I notice that the lights
> flicker slightly but annoyingly. For a normal generator I'd let it slide,
> but I thought the point of these inverter designs was "clean" power. Is
> slight flickering typical of the iX2000 or did I get a bad one?
>
> Dan Lanciani
> ddl@danlan.*com
Dan,
Why does a generator need an inverter at all? Doesn't it put out pure
sinewave A/C to begin with?
I would <groan> call Generac to see what they say (their web site was pretty
silent about the inverter technology) but refuse a rebuilt, who knows what
happened to it, unit and return the item to the store where hopefully you
can either try a new one of the same model (which they will probably gladly
do since it means you weren't trying to scam them by using it as a free
rental) or get your money back and try another brand.
What a pain, though. I suspect that you'd need something like the big
toroidal transformers made by Sola we used to use in the color darkroom to
keep the enlarger lamps at precisely the right color temperature. I still
see those types of transformers (huge - about 18" in diameter and 12" deep)
on This Old House when they are doing high end AV installs. You would think
modern microprocessor technology could compensate for rotation and load
variations enough to "smooth out" the output so it wouldn't cause
flickering. I would be interested to see what happens if you add more
lights.
Have you tried CFL lamps instead of the incandescents or mixed in with them?
It could be that their internal electronics will overcome the flickering.
Hey, stranger things have happend!
Besides, in a few years, the Greenie Police will confiscate your illegal
tunsten filament bulbs and fine you for your inefficiency.
--
Bobby G.
ransley
The inverter type is a unit that varies voltage by rpm, it can run as
low as 900 rpm to power a light bulb.. Regular gens run at 3600 rpm,
its a big waste of evergy to power a small load and engine life
[depending on quality] is about 300-3000 hours, Inverter gens by honda
run with a few hundred watts are known to last 11000 hours. RPM
directly relates to engine life, this is the main reason a 1800 rpm
deisel lasts 4x as long as a 3600 gas engine, and 1100 rpm Lister
generators can go 100,000 hours, and deisel boat engines that maybe
run at 100 rpm run nearly forever. The Honda inverter also has the
Generator as part of the motor, it cuts about 30% of the weight out
making for a compact lightweight unit. So for long term low load at a
remote site such as a cabin, if the load is kept to a minimum you can
with an Inverter get 9-12000 hours life vs 3-350 for the cheap non OHV
B&S engine. Inverters 2.5x premium in cost can be worth it for someone
living for example on a boat or camper for long periods. Plus Hondas
inverters have cleaner power than your power co and are so quiet you
cant hear them from 10 ft away. Generac probably stole the design but
his batch looks to be infected with a defective part. I would not
exchange it for a unit of the same batch. Once I got a cheap Generac
power washer, it blew in 2 hrs, the replacement lasted 1 hr, it was
the same batch and had the same defect. Inverter technology is great,
but there are a few others on the market that have proven reliability
like Yamaha
Johnny B Good
from "Robert Green" <robert_g...@yah00.com> contains these words:
> "Dan Lanciani" <ddl@danlan.*com> wrote in message
> news:135...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM...
> > I picked one of these up at Lowes to temporarily power some incandescent
> > lights. With a couple of hundred watts of load I notice that the lights
> > flicker slightly but annoyingly. For a normal generator I'd let it slide,
> > but I thought the point of these inverter designs was "clean" power. Is
> > slight flickering typical of the iX2000 or did I get a bad one?
> >
> > Dan Lanciani
> > ddl@danlan.*com
> Dan,
> Why does a generator need an inverter at all? Doesn't it put out pure
> sinewave A/C to begin with?
====snip====
You'd think so, wouldn't you? However, the reality is that a cheap
standby generator puts out a rather distorted waveform on load (it looks
ok without load) but this isn't the issue. The real problem with a
conventional alternator is its suceptability to overvolting with even a
modest capactive loading which becomes a problem with certain models of
UPSes that switch a large amount of capacitance across the line when
they return to pass through mode.
About two years back, I bought a cheap 2.5KVA petrol(gasoline)
generator from my local Aldi store to supplement the 2KVA APC
SmartUPS2000 that I use to provide a protected supply to my computer
kit. After much testing, it turned out that it was basically useless for
this purpose since even a modest 4.7 microfarad capacitor was sufficient
to make the generator output jump from its regulated 230v to some 275
volts.
The UPS was switching twice that amount of capacitance across the line
every time it saw the generator voltage return to normal and tried to
revert back to "mains" power which caused it to immediately switch back
to battery as the generator voltage shot back up to some 270 volts, a
process that would go on ad infinitum until I reconnected back to the
PSU power.
An inverter type of generator drives a high voltage version of a car
alternator with a permanent magnet rotor which feeds a 3 phase fullwave
bridge rectifier and capacitor smoothing pack and uses throttle control
to maintain its DC output voltage feed to the Sinewave inverter which is
immune to this capacitive loading issue.
It wasn't the 5Khz noise ripple from the cogging effect of the stator
windings, nor the gross amount of harmonic distortion, nor even the
subharmonic content due to the speed modulation effect of using a single
cylinder 4 stroke prime mover nor even the +/-5% speed/frequency
varations between no load and full load on the generator supply as I
initially had suspected, it was simply the total lack of voltage control
in the face of capacitive loading variations.
It took nearly a year before coming to this startling conclusion and
many hours of rigging up test solutions to combat the problem. One
solution I tried was to rig up a parallel inductor to cancel the
capacitive loading but this didn't entirely solve the problem.
Another solution I'm considering is to use a bunch of universal 150W
laptop chargers to create a 54v 2KW battery charger to allow the UPS
inverter to run indefinitely off its battery pack, float charged from
generator power, (in 4 or 5 banks of three wired in series to make up
the 54 volts from 3 times their 18v output setting fed from an
autotransformer set to supply them at a nominal 190vAC from the genny's
230v so that even if the genny voltage jumps up to 280v, they'll not
suffer any overvolt damage).
This, unfortunately depends upon a local fleamarket trader coming good
on his promise to be able to supply me with 15 or so such laptop
chargers at a low enough price to make it a worthwhile proposition. Even
supposing I managed to get hold of the chargers, this still leaves the
issue of uprating the ventillation on the UPS (not a difficult task ;-)
in order to allow it to run in this mode indefinitely.
TBH, I'm now on the lookout for a secondhand 3KW inverter type
generator to replace the cheap 'n' cheerful pile of crap I've currently
got. I couldn't really justify the price of a brand new unit, but it
would neatly solve all the issues at a stroke. If I'd known, when I
bought the generator, what I know today, I would have only considered an
inverter type in the first place.
Jim Wilkins
wrote:
>...
Have you played with a ferroresonant Constant Voltage Transformer amid
this mish-mash? I'm curious if a UPS works with them but don't want to
risk destroying anything.
jsw
vaughn
>Have you played with a ferroresonant Constant Voltage Transformer amid
>this mish-mash? I'm curious if a UPS works with them but don't want to
>risk destroying anything.
I am not sure exactly what "mish mash" you have in mind, but do not try to feed
a ferroresonant transformer with anything except a sine waive. Many/most cheap
UPS output square waves when running on the battery. I learned the hard way,
have blown 2 perfectly good UPSs that way.
A good sine wave inverter generator should run a CVT just fine, but why would
you want to? The inverter output should already be voltage regulated.
BTW: Ferroresonant transformers are power vampires. Just put your hand on one
after it has been on a while and estimate how many watts it is dissipating as
waste heat. I have one I have been known to use as a foot warmer!
Vaughn
RamRod Sword of Baal
"Jim Wilkins" <kb1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a002a26-fb9b-4699...@w31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
============================
I have 2 Sola 200s and 1 Sola 210 installed at my home.
From memory the Models 200 are 4 amps each at 240 volts
The Model 210 is 10 amps at 240 volts
--------------------
One Sola 200 protects the bedroom's TV and Hi Fi systems
One Sola 200 protects the kitchen TV and Lounge projection TV and Hi Fi
systems
On Sola 210 protects all the computers, printers and the Commander phone
system.
No problems with with any of the gear connected up to these power
conditioners.
On the computer one we had a brown out once with the 240 volts mains
dropping down to 90 volts and the computer continued to run, although I shut
everything down once I realized what had happened. It should hold the output
at 240 volts when the mains is down to 190 volts or up to 260.
A higher swing of mains voltage is allowable (144 to 336 volts) but the
output voltage will be less controlled
See
http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/files/sola.pdf
----------------
I have a volt meter installed on the power supply from the 210 and it is
reading 238 volts and is dead steady, while the mains voltage is currently
248.4 volts (it is 11.41 AM Wednesday here)
-----------------------
I have a HP laptop and not sure about this, but I think that the power
supply for this laptop does not like the power coming out of the 210.
I have cooked up one power supply from the laptop and so I am not connecting
it to the power from the 210 again. It may or may not have been the power
from the 210 that caused the problem, but I have no wish to cook up a second
HP power supply.
I installed these Ferroresonant Power Conditioners several years ago after
we had a series of problems with electronic equipment. I think that the
local supply authority upped the output voltage on the local substation to
250 volts, it may have gone higher in the middle of the night and I think
that was part of the problem.
All the Power Conditioners were purchased second hand.
They are quite noisy beasts and you would not want one in your computer
room, mine are installed in the laundry and they do throw out a fair amount
of hear and I installed a couple of small of exhaust fans to help with
this. From memory that are only about 90% efficient at their best so they do
add to the total power bill.
They are heavy the 200 is 36 Kg and the 210 is 65 Kg
The computer Sola 210 runs 24 hours a day as we leave the computers running
all the time, but the screens and printers are turned off overnight to
conserve power but those supplying the TVs etc as only turned on when
required.
There have been no major problems with anything connected to theses systems
since they were installed.
----------
I do not have installed a UPS as such, but a 24 volt battery set up with a
battery charger and an inverter, but the power for that does not go through
the Sola units.
It is not usually in service, but can be manually switched if required, as I
keep the batteries fully charged.
=============
======
Jim Wilkins
> ...
>
> ...do not try to feed
> a ferroresonant transformer with anything except a sine waive. Many/most cheap
> UPS output square waves when running on the battery. I learned the hard way,
> have blown 2 perfectly good UPSs that way.
Thanks, I graciously appreciate the gift of your costly experience,
not that I own any "perfectly good" UPSs.
jsw
Josepi
They voltage regulate by distorting the crap out of the nice sinewave you
put into it.
"vaughn" <vaugh...@gmail.invalid> wrote in message
news:hvrnhi$t8i$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
z
holy crap.
When I moved back up the creek full off grid back in 2k or so My bro gave
me a UPS to help with the computers .. thinking I could stay alive while
switching from solar/batteries to generator (this is before my hydro) --
the damn UPS wouldn't do just that using my old generator. Switch to
charge, kill the generator, switch back to UPS .. the generator would
pick back up, then it'd go back to charge and kill it again in a very
distrubing loop with everything sounding like it was going to blow up.
Now I have an explanation!!!
I just had my bro return it and exchanged it for a nice video card at the
time.
I'm wondering if now that i'm on the inverter type gens I could actually
have a UPS again. Might have to see if I can pick one up.
At the time I thought the UPS charging was drawing more amps than my gen
was able to produce with the other loads (though at the time it didn't
seem like too much), so it would overload the generator. But clearly
there may have been another reason for the evil power UPS+ Gen loop.
dang.
thanks for that post man. Solved a mystery for me
-zachary in Oregon
Jim Wilkins
> Those beasts put out a really dirty waveform too.
> They voltage regulate by distorting the crap out of the nice sinewave you
> put into it.
Perhaps in terms of harmonic content; visually on the scope they just
lower and broaden the peak.
I was curious if anyone had anything good to say about them.
jsw
Josepi
reliable for decades.
Not exactly the same thing buy very similar.
I haven't seen many ferroresonant transformers used for many decades now.
Probaly a chip app now.
"Jim Wilkins" <kb1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bbdc3c83-3d97-4a5e...@b35g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
Robert Green
news:9c85dff8-f40f-4bf5-a2b9-
<stuff snipped>
<The inverter type is a unit that varies voltage by rpm, it can run as
low as 900 rpm to power a light bulb.. Regular gens run at 3600 rpm,
its a big waste of evergy to power a small load and engine life
[depending on quality] is about 300-3000 hours, Inverter gens by honda
run with a few hundred watts are known to last 11000 hours. RPM
directly relates to engine life, this is the main reason a 1800 rpm
deisel lasts 4x as long as a 3600 gas engine, and 1100 rpm Lister
generators can go 100,000 hours, and deisel boat engines that maybe
run at 100 rpm run nearly forever. The Honda inverter also has the
Generator as part of the motor, it cuts about 30% of the weight out
making for a compact lightweight unit. So for long term low load at a
remote site such as a cabin, if the load is kept to a minimum you can
with an Inverter get 9-12000 hours life vs 3-350 for the cheap non OHV
B&S engine. Inverters 2.5x premium in cost can be worth it for someone
living for example on a boat or camper for long periods. Plus Hondas
inverters have cleaner power than your power co and are so quiet you
cant hear them from 10 ft away. Generac probably stole the design but
his batch looks to be infected with a defective part. I would not
exchange it for a unit of the same batch. Once I got a cheap Generac
power washer, it blew in 2 hrs, the replacement lasted 1 hr, it was
the same batch and had the same defect. Inverter technology is great,
but there are a few others on the market that have proven reliability
like Yamaha>
Thanks for the explanation. That Generac unit looked cute and portable
enough to use on camping trips. But since I've owned Honda cars since 1980
with great satisfaction, I think I'll see what they have to offer.
--
Bobby G.
Dan Lanciani
| About two years back, I bought a cheap 2.5KVA petrol(gasoline)
| generator from my local Aldi store to supplement the 2KVA APC
| SmartUPS2000 that I use to provide a protected supply to my computer
| kit. After much testing, it turned out that it was basically useless for
| this purpose since even a modest 4.7 microfarad capacitor was sufficient
| to make the generator output jump from its regulated 230v to some 275
| volts.
I ran into this problem with a 9kW (derated to 6.5kW on natural gas)
generator and a couple of SmartUPS1000s. The generator also gave my
Sub-Zero refrigerator fits and would not run my cat's drinking fountain at
all (it just hummed). I was lucky enough to pick up an 8kVA MicroPower II
isolator/regulator from a locally decommissioned computer center and it
largely solved my problems. (I still have to set the UPS sensitivity one
level down, but that's not so bad.) As an added benefit, the isolator
draws only from the 240V output so the generator always sees a perfectly
balanced load. These and similar units are often available on eBay, but
shipping may be expensive...
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Dan Lanciani
| On Jun 22, 2:22=A0pm, Johnny B Good <jcs.computersb...@plugzetnet.co.uk>
One problem with ferroresonant transformers is that they are rather
inefficient (they get very hot). They also aren't a panacea. The
Best online UPS I mentioned earlier in this thread uses a ferroresonant
transformer and the flicker at transfer is terrible. (The MicroPower II
is not a ferroresonant transformer; it uses many taps on a conventional
transformer and selects the most appropriate one on a cycle-by-cycle
basis.)
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
ransley
wrote:
> "ransley" <Mark_Rans...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
Call a few big generator stores that you find online, they know better
than me what makes work and which ones break, HD is good for the 30
day no questions policy and the bigger 3600 rpm units. I would like a
Tri Fuel gen and just hook it to a Ng line.
Tony
> On 6/20/2010 9:00 AM Tony spake thus:
>
>> Dan Lanciani wrote:
> >
>>> I picked one of these up at Lowes to temporarily power some incandescent
>>> lights. With a couple of hundred watts of load I notice that the lights
>>> flicker slightly but annoyingly. For a normal generator I'd let it
>>> slide,
>>> but I thought the point of these inverter designs was "clean" power. Is
>>> slight flickering typical of the iX2000 or did I get a bad one?
>>
>> could probably do better with a cheaper brushless AC generator.
>
> By "stepped" you mean a square wave, no?
No, it's all choppy. Taking a bunch of little square waves to make up
one complete cycle. On a scope it looks like steps going up and then
down. The more steps the closer it gets to a sine wave. Not just one
up and one down like a square wave. It sounds good in theory, but
unless it's really a good one, it isn't worth the money.
I've run a few different computers and other electronic equipment off my
plain Jane generator (alternator) without any problems. No electronics,
just a cheap generator (alternator) at about 60 Hz. Most electronic
equipment is marked for 50 to 60 Hz showing that it isn't as sensitive
to frequency as one might think.
Johnny B Good
from ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) contains these words:
I've got a small transformer based stabilizer (aka, power vampire) but
it's only rated at 250VA. I tried it but it didn't seem to have any
effect. There used to be a couple of local "Government Surplus" shops
which would deal in this sort of "Junk", but they've long since gone out
of business. Unless the proprieters had family to carry on the business,
usually mutating into an electronics store, the business would die with
them.
Any such solution is not likely to be as effective on generator power
as it would be on PSU power due to the wider variations of supply
frequency since these utilise resonance and core saturation to function
properly.
The variations in frequency with load are usually within the tolerance
range of most UPS, provided you retrim the governor to centre the speed
at half load on the nominal 50 or 60Hz they're supposed to be set for
(they're typically set on the high side in the factory).
It's a sad fact of life that modest amounts of excess capacitive
loading will mess up the voltage regulation of cheap (and, not so cheap)
generators. The sine inverter types are immune to this effect and have
the advantage of allowing a permanent magnet alternator to be used at
variable revs to suit the actual demand. The extra losses in the
inverter usually being negated by the efficiency gains in the PM
generator (no 10% loss to the field windings and VR circuit).
Until I actually bought a cheap 'n' cheerful 2.5KVA (continuous, 2.8KVA
peak) generator, I was woefully ignorant of this tiny but oh so serious
deficiency when used with certain classes of electronic gear.
Regarding the SmartUPS2000, I guess it probably uses a near identical
schematic diagram to its SmartUPS1000 cousins, switching either a single
4.7 microfarad (or, in the SmartUPS 2000 case, a pair of them in
parallel[1]) across the line when in pass through standby mode,
disconnecting them when running off the battery.
Since the design incorporates a current transformer to monitor the
current flowing through this capacitor, disconnection is not an option
since it is very likely that the UPS will not function properly in their
absence.
What muddied the issue was the fact that I could only select between
high and mid sensitivity on the rear panel dip switch. The lowest
sensitivity setting is only available via the Powerchute management
software (or equivilent open source alternatives) and it turned out that
the interface firmware in my particular example has been broken in such
a way as to preclude this option (although I could interrogate some of
its operational parameters using the open source management software).
However, in view of the real problem being the extreme voltage boost
effect, perhaps it's just as well I couldn't persuade it to accept the
generator power. I have another SmartUPS which I was able to persuade
into accepting the generator voltage but this was only a SmartUPS700 so
may not have used anywhere near the same amount of capacitive loading
(if any).
I've not had any cause to examine a circuit diagram for the SmartUPS700
since the three sensitivity levels can be set with a rear panel
pushbutton switch and its software interface works perfectly ok, so I
don't know whether they even use a similar capacitive circuit or how
much capaciticance even if it is the same circuit (but I'd expect a
proportionally smaller value if it was).
The cheap generators designed for european/uk use tend to use a two
pole 3000rpm (50Hz) generator head with split stator windings to allow
either 115v or 230v operation. They don't have an option to supply both
voltages at the same time since there isn't such a need outside of North
America.
[1] I'm guessing that you're located un the US of A so it's quite likely
that those 115v versions of SmartUPS1000s might[2] _still_ need a pair
of 4.7microfarad caps (a 115v version of the SmartUPS2000 would need to
almost double up on the two caps already fitted in the 230/240v versions
all else being equal[2]).
[2] Possibly, the capacitor value might not be too critical since the
frequency is higher and the monitoring software can simply be
recalibrated to compensate for the different
voltage/frequency/capacitance ratio that would result if they were
simply sticking to a common capacitor value to simplify their parts
inventory.
I could probably check the circuit diagrams if I could be arsed enough
to search them out. If anyone else wants to research this, they're free
to google for a source of schematics (they're out there, or they were
when I last looked).
Johnny B Good
from z <z...@yada.yada.com> contains these words:
> Johnny B Good <jcs.comp...@plugzetnet.co.uk> wrote in
> news:3130303037373...@plugzetnet.co.uk:
====snip====
> > The UPS was switching twice that amount of capacitance across the
> > line
> > every time it saw the generator voltage return to normal and tried to
> > revert back to "mains" power which caused it to immediately switch
> > back to battery as the generator voltage shot back up to some 270
> > volts, a process that would go on ad infinitum until I reconnected
> > back to the PSU power.
> >
> holy crap.
> When I moved back up the creek full off grid back in 2k or so My bro gave
> me a UPS to help with the computers .. thinking I could stay alive while
> switching from solar/batteries to generator (this is before my hydro) --
> the damn UPS wouldn't do just that using my old generator. Switch to
> charge, kill the generator, switch back to UPS .. the generator would
> pick back up, then it'd go back to charge and kill it again in a very
> distrubing loop with everything sounding like it was going to blow up.
> Now I have an explanation!!!
Well, only if I interpret the "switch to charge" as meaning the UPS has
switched from battery power back to line power to power the load from
the generator and, incidently, recharge its battery pack. If I've
interpreted this wrongly, then no, you don't have an explanation.
> I just had my bro return it and exchanged it for a nice video card at the
> time.
> I'm wondering if now that i'm on the inverter type gens I could actually
> have a UPS again. Might have to see if I can pick one up.
> At the time I thought the UPS charging was drawing more amps than my gen
> was able to produce with the other loads (though at the time it didn't
> seem like too much), so it would overload the generator. But clearly
> there may have been another reason for the evil power UPS+ Gen loop.
The only type of UPS that would do that would be worth at least 10 to
20 of the most expensive, latest, all singing, all dancing top of the
range graphics adapters, say £5k($7 or 8K?) and up.
The usual line interactive types don't present a heavy battery charging
load when line power is restored after an outage. My SmartUPS2000 only
draws a maximum of 190 watts to charge the battery after an extended
outage (a test run, usually) and this normally drops to less than 140W
after the first hour or so if the battery has been tested to exhaustion.
If that UPS were of the expensive kind, it could represent a heavy
battery charging load after a relatively short outage since it would be
float charging its battery pack _and_ powering the constant run inverter
feeding the protected load which would only ever see inverter power
regardless of the state of the utility power.
If such a UPS has a load rating of 2KVA it's very likely that its
charger will be capable of drawing 2.5 to 3 KW so as to be able to
provide a net charge to the battery when power returns when under
maximum load. When the protected load is only half the maximum, the
charging demand after a few minutes outage could very well still peak to
the same maximum for a minute or two before settling back to provide a
more sedate topping up charge rate plus load demand.
To reiterate, my situation was this:
I'd fire up the generator, disconnect the UPS from the PSU power which
made it transfer to battery power. I would then connect it to the
generator and the UPS would monitor the line power, see a supply within
frequency and voltage tolerance, wait for its own battery generated AC
power to get in sync and then switch its load (and those damned
capacitors!) back to line power which immediately caused the genny
voltage to jump to 270 volts which, in turn, caused the UPS to swiftly
transfer back to battery power to protect the load from the overvolt
event. The genny voltage would then return to normal and the cycle would
repeat.
If this describes the situation you had with that UPS and your
generator, then a suitably rated sinewave inverter model should solve
the problem.
HTH
Dan Lanciani
The MicroPower II (and similar) is not a ferroresonant "power vampire."
It uses multiple taps on a conventional transformer and selects the
most appropriate one on a cycle-by-cycle basis. I also have a 3.1kVA
ferroresonant transformer in the form of a Best UPS, but I don't find
it particularly useful. In any case, the MicroPower II works great
with my generator and solves the SmartUPS problem.
| Regarding the SmartUPS2000, I guess it probably uses a near identical
| schematic diagram to its SmartUPS1000 cousins, switching either a single
| 4.7 microfarad (or, in the SmartUPS 2000 case, a pair of them in
| parallel[1]) across the line when in pass through standby mode,
| disconnecting them when running off the battery.
The 1000 is probably closer in design to the 700, but it does have the
capacitor. It kills X10 signals so I have to run it throught a filter.
| What muddied the issue was the fact that I could only select between
| high and mid sensitivity on the rear panel dip switch.
The 1000 has the push button like the 700 to cycle through three settings.
| The lowest
| sensitivity setting is only available via the Powerchute management
| software (or equivilent open source alternatives) and it turned out that
| the interface firmware in my particular example has been broken in such
| a way as to preclude this option (although I could interrogate some of
| its operational parameters using the open source management software).
I was never able to get any of the free software to work so I wrote my
own trivial program to handle shutdown. For setting parameters I use
a terminal program and do it manually. There is great variation in
the semantics of the command set making reliable control a bit tricky.
Even the SU1000 and SUA1000 differ in, e.g, the operation of the "@"
command.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
ransley
>
> - Show quoted text -
I know Honda EU series is stated to be cleaner than your AC, the
Inverter type can be the best but that generac is just defective junk.
Johnny B Good
from ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) contains these words:
> In article <3130303037373...@plugzetnet.co.uk>,
> jcs.comp...@plugzetnet.co.uk (Johnny B Good) writes:
====snip====
> | I've got a small transformer based stabilizer (aka, power vampire) but
> | it's only rated at 250VA. I tried it but it didn't seem to have any
> | effect. There used to be a couple of local "Government Surplus" shops
> | which would deal in this sort of "Junk", but they've long since gone out
> | of business. Unless the proprieters had family to carry on the business,
> | usually mutating into an electronics store, the business would die with
> | them.
> |
> | Any such solution is not likely to be as effective on generator power
> | as it would be on PSU power due to the wider variations of supply
> | frequency since these utilise resonance and core saturation to function
> | properly.
> The MicroPower II (and similar) is not a ferroresonant "power vampire."
> It uses multiple taps on a conventional transformer and selects the
> most appropriate one on a cycle-by-cycle basis. I also have a 3.1kVA
> ferroresonant transformer in the form of a Best UPS, but I don't find
> it particularly useful. In any case, the MicroPower II works great
> with my generator and solves the SmartUPS problem.
My bad, I did see that description, but only after I'd sent my reply. I
wish I could get my hands on something like that, but only at its scrap
value price point.
> | Regarding the SmartUPS2000, I guess it probably uses a near identical
> | schematic diagram to its SmartUPS1000 cousins, switching either a single
> | 4.7 microfarad (or, in the SmartUPS 2000 case, a pair of them in
> | parallel[1]) across the line when in pass through standby mode,
> | disconnecting them when running off the battery.
> The 1000 is probably closer in design to the 700, but it does have the
> capacitor. It kills X10 signals so I have to run it throught a filter.
> | What muddied the issue was the fact that I could only select between
> | high and mid sensitivity on the rear panel dip switch.
> The 1000 has the push button like the 700 to cycle through three settings.
In which case, it's rather a worry that the 700 could have been
producing a similar, if less extreme overvolting effect.
> | The lowest
> | sensitivity setting is only available via the Powerchute management
> | software (or equivilent open source alternatives) and it turned out that
> | the interface firmware in my particular example has been broken in such
> | a way as to preclude this option (although I could interrogate some of
> | its operational parameters using the open source management software).
> I was never able to get any of the free software to work so I wrote my
> own trivial program to handle shutdown. For setting parameters I use
> a terminal program and do it manually. There is great variation in
> the semantics of the command set making reliable control a bit tricky.
> Even the SU1000 and SUA1000 differ in, e.g, the operation of the "@"
> command.
The only motivation I had for tracking down a copy of APC's management
software that would recognise that ancient SmartUPS2000 (and subsequent
searches for open source software) was simply to reprogram it to its
least sensitivity setting. In the end, this proved a total washout since
it looks as though a previous user may have screwed the serial interface
control firmware, which may explain why it found its way onto a mobile
radioham rally trader's table about 6 or 7 years back where I picked it
up, sans battery box, for �35 (about $50).
Apart from the mystery of the broken interface, it has performed its
primary function perfectly since then, once I'd set it up with an
external 48v battery pack.
The only benefit of my efforts to make it compatable with that cheap
generator was that it developed a show stopping fault which had started
as an intermittent failure to pass line power through to the load. The
benefit being that I had, by then, acquired the circuit schematics and
given them some study so was able to quickly identify the source of the
trouble which turned out to be the mains transfer relay itself (rather
than some obscure fault within the complex control electronics).
One of the base pins had cracked just within the relay base and gone
open circuit. The pin in question being one of the relay contacts. I
knew that trying to make a solder butt joint was going to be doomed to
certain failure but careful drilling with a 0.4mm dia drill alongside
the contact wire in the relay base allowed me to thread a short piece of
copper wire to act as a replacemt soldering pin that I could positively
anchor and make a much more durable solder joint onto the remains of the
original contact pin within the base.
That repair was made about 12 months ago and I've not had any other
problems since so it looks like I've thwarted Sod's Law of unwarranted
premature failure of high tech equipment by a low tech fault. If I
hadn't already invested my time in studying the schematics, it would
probably have ended up as landfill by now. As the more accurate[1]
saying goes: "All's well that ends." ;-)
[1] I find that the second "well" in the more common version of that
saying is often simply superfluous wordage in most cases.
Jim Rusling
<snip>
> I'd fire up the generator, disconnect the UPS from the PSU power which
>made it transfer to battery power. I would then connect it to the
>generator and the UPS would monitor the line power, see a supply within
>frequency and voltage tolerance, wait for its own battery generated AC
>power to get in sync and then switch its load (and those damned
>capacitors!) back to line power which immediately caused the genny
>voltage to jump to 270 volts which, in turn, caused the UPS to swiftly
>transfer back to battery power to protect the load from the overvolt
>event. The genny voltage would then return to normal and the cycle would
>repeat.
>
> If this describes the situation you had with that UPS and your
>generator, then a suitably rated sinewave inverter model should solve
>the problem.
>
>HTH
Mine will do that as well. I did find that if I had a small load,
like a 60 watt bulb, it would work normally.
--
Jim Rusling
More or Less Retired
Mustang, OK
http://www.rusling.org