pumping water 200 feet - best way?
DaveT
to a large above ground storage tank. My only alternative at the
present is to put a generator at the top of the well with a
submersible pump below. I'm trying to configure the most cost
effective set up for a family of five (full-time). The well (with
good flow) is in, but I need to buy the pump, generator, and storage
tank(s). Is it more efficient to pump less frequently into a large
tank? (say 5000 gallons); what is better (for a generator) gas,
propane, diesel? DC or AC pump?
We were fortunate in our last remote home to have unlimited gravity
provided water to the house (which probably made us wasteful), so
pumping water is a new experience for me. Any input or ideas would be
appreciated. Thanks!
Bill Roosa
or in your case 1000 gal /day. This is the "whole ball of wax" figure that
includes toilets, showers/baths, washing and even watering your lawn.
If you have a 1000 gal / day well or better then you are set otherwise you
will have to do some sort of conservation.
It is really dependent on the well flow rate. 1000 gal/day is 41.7 gal/hour
so if your well can provide say 82 gal/hour you could get away with full
rate pumping for 12 hours or "half rate" pumping all day long. You can see
where this is going.
The textbook answer for diesel - genset - deep well pump is to pump as fast
as you can till your storage is full then wait till the storage falls to
some optimum refill level. This lets your genset run at full load assuming
it is sized correctly. It does however favor LARGE storage sizes. You
would need to do a lifecycle cost to get a "best size" answer. Of course
household budget gets involved so the answer really depends on:
flow rate of well to size storage
power required to pump from well to storage to size genset
the amount of $$$ you have to spend
cost of "fuel" for the genset
Let me know the well flow rate and I'll get some "raw" numbers for you to
play with.
Bill Roosa
DaveT
been told the well can put out 8 gallons a minute. regarding
household budget- I'm looking to buy generator to last 3-5 years, pump
a bit longer, tank forever. Eventually I'd like to replace generator
with solar. 1000 gallon/day seems about right (we used to live with a
120o gallon tank and when the water line clogged we'd go a couple of
days til it emptied)
"Bill Roosa" <roosabna=yougottahaveabigdream=@quixnet.net> wrote in message news:<a2vcnp$180$1...@newstest.laserlink.net>...
basil...@zotnet.net
Bill is on the right track. Have you had the water tested for quality
and contaminants? It is important to know the characteristics of the
water. This will influence the pump materials and the tank lining.
Every gallon per minute of water pumped from that depth will require
0.0376 kW divided by the pump efficiency and divided again by the
motor efficiency. Typical pumps in this size range 80 gpm at 200' of
head (not counting the additional head required for line loss in the
casing, surface piping, etc.) are in the 50% range and motor
efficiencies in the 90% range so, each gallon per minute will need
about 0.084 kW or 6.7 kW for the 80-gpm pump. Figuring 25% extra head
for the line losses, etc., this comes to about 8.4 kW.
Most diesel generators like to run at about 80% of load. So, a 10 kW
generator seems to be about right for this application. This figures
to be about 0.1 or so gallons per hour for a good engine. An hour's
run would put in 4800 gallons. So a 5000 gallon tank with the turn on
setting at 200 gallons would need to run about an hour to fill.
Lots of assumptions in this analysis. As always, more details will
help us refine the numbers.
Good luck.
PS: You might find this site of interest
http://www.vidhataindia.com/die-engine.html
Jeremy
"DaveT" <to...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:aba4977f.0201...@posting.google.com...
> In a remote homesite I need to pump water from a 200 foot well depth
> to a large above ground storage tank. My only alternative at the
> present is to put a generator at the top of the well with a
> submersible pump below. I'm trying to configure the most cost
> effective set up for a family of five (full-time). The well (with
> good flow) is in, but I need to buy the pump, generator, and storage
> tank(s). Is it more efficient to pump less frequently into a large
> tank? (say 5000 gallons); what is better (for a generator) gas,
> propane, diesel? DC or AC pump?
>
Have you considered an air lift pump? Not very fast but all the expensive
parts are above ground (a small motor driven air compressor capable of
generating 8,000 - 10,000 Hectopascals at a moderate flow rate). You run
the airlifted water into a holding tank and then run a domestic water
pressurising pump (or just use gravity from a tower)
Submersible pumps are very expensive and don't have a long life so it is
best to avoid them.
Another alternative is the old windmill pump. That requires no power at all
and very little maintenance. I'm not sure if they can lift 200 ft though.
Finally, if your well is large enough you can put a 1Hp to 3Hp pump on a
shelf about 10' above the water table and pump directly up. This will be
about 1/4 the cost of a submersible.
capw
basil...@zotnet.net wrote:
>
> Every gallon per minute of water pumped from that depth will require
> 0.0376 kW divided by the pump efficiency and divided again by the
> motor efficiency. Typical pumps in this size range 80 gpm at 200' of
> head (not counting the additional head required for line loss in the
> casing, surface piping, etc.) are in the 50% range and motor
> efficiencies in the 90% range so, each gallon per minute will need
> about 0.084 kW or 6.7 kW for the 80-gpm pump. Figuring 25% extra head
> for the line losses, etc., this comes to about 8.4 kW.
There appears to be an error in numbers... he was looking for about 80 gal per
hour, not 80 gal per minute.. So 0.084* 8= 0.672 KW.. * 1.25 ( head loss) =
0.84. Figuring in 1.25 % for generator capacity equals 1.05 KW generator.
>
>
> Most diesel generators like to run at about 80% of load. So, a 10 kW
> generator seems to be about right for this application. This figures
> to be about 0.1 or so gallons per hour for a good engine. An hour's
> run would put in 4800 gallons. So a 5000 gallon tank with the turn on
> setting at 200 gallons would need to run about an hour to fill.
Again the numbers need to be crunched.. 1kw generator at 0.01 gal hr fuel( is
that right? ) will put out 480 gal/hr... at diesel at $1.35 per gallon, and
0.01 gal/hr used, That's $1.35 per 48,000 gallon. of water pumped or 36,000
gallons or water per dollar.
Ten kw diesel generators are fairly simple to find.... But what about the One KW
generator for this use... Would this best be suited to a P.V. installation? Or
possibly a generator /battery /inverter set up that is tied into the house
setup. I have found that it is fairly common to find big engines ( things ) that
are efficient, But when the stuff gets small, the efficiency falls off in favor
of cost...
CAP
Mondaybill
I have a Gould 1/2hp deep well pump with a bladder type tank and 150' of
line with wire recently pulled from a condemned well (salt in the water).
I'm on the CT central shore. If you can use it and come get it you can have
it, no charge.
Monday Bill
basil...@zotnet.net
>
>
>basil...@zotnet.net wrote:
>
>>
>> Every gallon per minute of water pumped from that depth will require
>> 0.0376 kW divided by the pump efficiency and divided again by the
>> motor efficiency. Typical pumps in this size range 80 gpm at 200' of
>> head (not counting the additional head required for line loss in the
>> casing, surface piping, etc.) are in the 50% range and motor
>> efficiencies in the 90% range so, each gallon per minute will need
>> about 0.084 kW or 6.7 kW for the 80-gpm pump. Figuring 25% extra head
>> for the line losses, etc., this comes to about 8.4 kW.
>
>There appears to be an error in numbers... he was looking for about 80 gal per
>hour, not 80 gal per minute.. So 0.084* 8= 0.672 KW.. * 1.25 ( head loss) =
>0.84. Figuring in 1.25 % for generator capacity equals 1.05 KW generator.
0.084 kW/gpm x 1 gpm/60 gph x 80 gph = 0.112 kW x 125% = 0.14 kW
>
>>
>>
>> Most diesel generators like to run at about 80% of load. So, a 10 kW
>> generator seems to be about right for this application. This figures
>> to be about 0.1 or so gallons per hour for a good engine. An hour's
>> run would put in 4800 gallons. So a 5000 gallon tank with the turn on
>> setting at 200 gallons would need to run about an hour to fill.
>
>Again the numbers need to be crunched.. 1kw generator at 0.01 gal hr fuel( is
>that right? ) will put out 480 gal/hr... at diesel at $1.35 per gallon, and
>0.01 gal/hr used, That's $1.35 per 48,000 gallon. of water pumped or 36,000
>gallons or water per dollar.
I made a mistake in my number above. One kilowatt would use about
14,000 Btu/hr (for an efficient generator). So, 10 kW would use about
140,000 Btu/hr. Since one gallon of Diesel has about 144,000 Btu, one
could say that the 10-kW unit would use about 1 gallon per hour.
Off-road diesel is about 60｢/gallon. It is possible to find very small
generators. However, it seems like this would be a good application
for a shorter run time unit that would be more fully loaded.
If the folks used 1000 gallons per day. They could use a 5000 gallon
tank and the 80-gpm pump to fill it. On the other hand if the well can
only produce 80-gph, then a smaller generator or photovoltaic system
could be used along with a smaller tank.
As you have said, there are lots of numbers to be crunched and too
many assumptions to be definite without more information.
Bill Roosa
to put the pump down near the water table!!!
The big cost here is the storage tank. I was pricing poly tanks in the 2000
gal range for another project and they where all coming in at $2500 - $3000.
If he has a well head that can handle it, it would make more sense to use an
electric pump and accumulator. He would have to have a battery-inverter to
keep the genset from running all the time though.
I wonder what he is doing for home electric. 1 kW would not effect this too
much and would preclude going the battery-inverter route and all the
maintenance associated with it.
Bill Roosa
sno
Use plastic drums for water storage...can
be connected together as shown here....
http://nxtwave.tripod.com/gaiatech/frugal.htm
steve opelc
wmbjk
> I was pricing poly tanks in the 2000
> gal range for another project and they where all coming in at $2500 -
$3000.
You might be shopping in the wrong places. A 3000 gallon poly tank sells for
about $1000 here. A neighbor bought a 2500 not long ago, $950 delivered.
Wayne
mikesmith
more realistic. As a family of 3 living in the city many years back we were
only using between 175gpd and 280gpd (as metered by the city). That
translates to 7gph to 12gph.
We weren't particularly conservative and did water the garden in the hot dry
summer weather.
If conditions permit, have you considered wind power to assist with pumping?
You said your well is 200' deep - where's the water level at? Your pump
won't be 200' down I hope, that's a lot of head pressure requiring a bigger
pump (and more energy) to do your work.
Also, we currently live in the country and have a 180' deep well and are
running a 1.75HP submersible pump. I haven't checked the pump rating but
the pump is on a 15A breaker running 240V which translates to a maximum
current draw of 3.6kW. An earlier poster cited 8.4kW which sounds like
overkill to me. You could probably get a way with a 4kW genset running
intermittantly. A 10kW unit would run my complete house!
Unless you've got money to burn...
"wmbjk" <wm...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:u5ap3b3...@corp.supernews.com...
lhsbiz
hardware store for about $850. That was a "special" deal, but the regular price
wasn't over $1000. I suspect you can find a much better price if you look
about.
respectfully
capw
mikesmith wrote:
>
>
> You said your well is 200' deep - where's the water level at? Your pump
> won't be 200' down I hope, that's a lot of head pressure requiring a bigger
> pump (and more energy) to do your work.
>
It's not the depth of the pump, it's the water level that you are pumping
from... if the pump is 200' down the hole, but the water table is at 20 ft,
then you are 'paying for ' only the 20 ft lift of the water, not the 180' ft
the water took to get to the 'water level'... Ok the pipe loss costs you a
little.. but it should have been sized correctly to prevent that...
CAP
Bill Roosa
imagine a well drawdown of this magnitude that actually produces ANY water.
The soil would be almost totally impermeable.
What I would recommend is canvassing the neighborhood and finding out how
deep other folks wells are. He might have just hit a "bad well spot" on his
land and moving the well site could fix part of his 200 ft head issue.
BTW most wells this deep require a pump at the bottom. Those darn laws of
physic again. Seems that the max vacuum head you can put on a water column
is 32 ft or so. Above that you are just sucking water vapor.
Bill Roosa
Anthony Matonak
...
> physic again. Seems that the max vacuum head you can put on a water column
> is 32 ft or so. Above that you are just sucking water vapor.
I seem to recall someone who uses pulsed pressure waves from the top of a well
to suck water up more than 32 feet. Alas, I have no references.
Then again, while it's not as efficient, sucking water vapor is still sucking
water. I imagine you could have a vacuum pump that condenses the water vapor
it sucks out of the well. I'd think you would get very pure water as this is
basically a still. I also imagine it would operate as a heat pump because the
water boiling at the bottom of the well would suck the heat out of the ground
and the condenser at the top of the well would release that heat. You would
likely get a lot of mineral buildup at the bottom of the well though.
Anthony
zeromedic
Has everyone forgotten about jet pumps? With the jet separated from
the pump itself, and located deep in the well?
Requires 2 pipes to the well, small hi-pressure jet feed to venturi, and
large return water return.
These were commen it fine sand aquifer systems before submersible
technology came of age.
No real limit on depth of water table, feed a bit of hi-pressure water
down to the jet, get more low pressure water back up. P.i.t.b. to prime.
zero
Nick Pine
>...I imagine you could have a vacuum pump that condenses the water vapor
>it sucks out of the well. I'd think you would get very pure water as this is
>basically a still. I also imagine it would operate as a heat pump because the
>water boiling at the bottom of the well would suck the heat out of the ground
>and the condenser at the top of the well would release that heat...
That might be hard to do in a typical well by sucking air out the top.
I got a well top buried 2' underground a few months ago. The perpetrator
sealed the cap completely, enlarging its rubber O-ring until it fit very
tightly into the casing and putting plugs in every one of the holes
intended for ventilation. I asked if this would cause a vacuum problem
when the submersible pump came on, and he said no, the well itself leaks
plenty of air and water.
We might suck air out of a pipe that terminates underwater. Less drilling
and digging than the usual ground-source heat pump, with better thermal
conductance to groundwater and less chance of contamination. How efficient
would that be, as heat pumps go? How can we calculate the efficiency?
Warmer water is better, no?
Nick
capw
ft. It was fairly dry until they got to about the 100' mark. then the water
table rose to about 10'. During the spring water actually flows out from the
casing! ... makes a big mess.. had to pipe it to the seasonal stream near by...
In the dry times the table drops to about 30'.... This is a well that had
to be punched deeper than the 'water table' in order to get at the
aquifer... We dropped the pump to about 100' to keep it off the bottom...
CAP
William P.N. Smith
>Surly he didn't drill a 200 ft hole when a 20+- hole would do!
He might have! I drilled 755 feet in an attempt to get more water,
should have quit at 200 feet, now I've got a 900-gallon "storage tank"
6"in diameter. 8*)
If you aren't subject to freezing you can find water storage for
around $2500/10K gallons at http://www.pronal.com
You can find 'solar' pumps from Shurflo at
http://38.249.196.10/html/Solar.html that'll do (lessee) 79GPH at 230
foot lift while drawing 4.6A at 24V, or about 110W. Since a person
uses about 100GPD, you'll need to run for 6.3 hours per day, or about
700 watt hours per day. They claim you need 155W of solar panel to
run this setup, which ought to cost you about $775, but you'll have to
tweak this depending on your location and available solar power.
You can get the Shurflo pumps for about $520 at http://mrsolar.com/
which is the lowest price I could find for them back in September.
--
William Smith wp...@compusmiths.com N1...@amsat.org
ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc. www.compusmiths.com