generac generator 7000exl help
Brian Ramsey
I am getting my generator ready for hurricane season. I fired it up
and by breaker keeps tripping after warmup. I checked all wires
everything seems to be fine. I replaces the brushes, power regulator
last year. any ideas will be appreciated.
Neon John
Is the breaker tripping with a load attached or without? What does the voltage
measure on the generator side of the breaker? What is the history of the generator?
Many times such problems are the inadvertent result of mistakes made during previous
repairs so I need to know what was done to the generator last. In some detail. What
you took off/opened up/replaced.
I'm very familiar with that generator and have one in my collection. There isn't
much to go wrong. I'm betting on a short inside the panel behind the outlets.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
What do you call 4 Blondes in an Abrams? Air Tank.
Brian Ramsey
breaker yet. good idea. I will do this when I get off of work. also
the history of the generator, it has maybe 15 hours on it. I replaced
the brushes and the power regulator last year do to "no power on the
panel" and this is what B&S said to do. it did work after the repair.
now this year I run it and the breaker trip's it is the far left
breaker there is no load on the unit when the breaker trips. I forgot
to say I replaced the breaker also after this problem started.
"I'm betting on a short inside the panel behind the outlets." you mean
a bad outlet?
On Jun 1, 1:51 am, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
> You gotta tell us a whole lot more than that.
>
> Is the breaker tripping with a load attached or without? What does the voltage
> measure on the generator side of the breaker? What is the history of the generator?
> Many times such problems are the inadvertent result of mistakes made during previous
> repairs so I need to know what was done to the generator last. In some detail. What
> you took off/opened up/replaced.
>
> I'm very familiar with that generator and have one in my collection. There isn't
> much to go wrong. I'm betting on a short inside the panel behind the outlets.
>
> John
>
> On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 05:29:59 -0000, Brian Ramsey <ramse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I hope this is the right group
>
> >I am getting my generator ready for hurricane season. I fired it up
> >and by breaker keeps tripping after warmup. I checked all wires
> >everything seems to be fine. I replaces the brushes, power regulator
> >last year. any ideas will be appreciated.
>
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email addresshttp://www.neon-john.com
Neon John
>Thank you for your reply. I have not checked the voltage behind the
>breaker yet. good idea. I will do this when I get off of work. also
>the history of the generator, it has maybe 15 hours on it. I replaced
>the brushes and the power regulator last year do to "no power on the
>panel" and this is what B&S said to do. it did work after the repair.
>now this year I run it and the breaker trip's it is the far left
>breaker there is no load on the unit when the breaker trips. I forgot
>to say I replaced the breaker also after this problem started.
>
>"I'm betting on a short inside the panel behind the outlets." you mean
>a bad outlet?
Could be a bad outlet or more likely, a pinched wire, skinned insulation or maybe
something touching one of the hot screws.
John
>
>On Jun 1, 1:51 am, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
>> You gotta tell us a whole lot more than that.
>>
>> Is the breaker tripping with a load attached or without? What does the voltage
>> measure on the generator side of the breaker? What is the history of the generator?
>> Many times such problems are the inadvertent result of mistakes made during previous
>> repairs so I need to know what was done to the generator last. In some detail. What
>> you took off/opened up/replaced.
>>
>> I'm very familiar with that generator and have one in my collection. There isn't
>> much to go wrong. I'm betting on a short inside the panel behind the outlets.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 05:29:59 -0000, Brian Ramsey <ramse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >I hope this is the right group
>>
>> >I am getting my generator ready for hurricane season. I fired it up
>> >and by breaker keeps tripping after warmup. I checked all wires
>> >everything seems to be fine. I replaces the brushes, power regulator
>> >last year. any ideas will be appreciated.
>>
>> ---
>> John De Armond
>> See my website for my current email addresshttp://www.neon-john.com
>> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>> What do you call 4 Blondes in an Abrams? Air Tank.
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Nuke the Whales!
philkryder
John -
Are those the small round thermal breakers as are found on the
8000exl?
The reason that I ask is that we had problems with the breakers and
ended up replacing them with a 240 volt double pole breaker switch on
our 8000EXL.
The 240 volt double pole breaker was a standard Briggs part, but we
had to mill an opening for it in the control panel cover.
Phil
Brian Ramsey
>
> - Show quoted text -
I am not sure if it is the same breaker the part number is 75207ags
did you have the same trouble? breaker trips on warmup?
Brian Ramsey
>
> - Show quoted text -
I checked all the wires for skins, pinched etc, and have not found
none, I will see what the power is behind the breaker, can you please
tell me how to check a 30amp 120 locking outlet?
Brian
Neon John
>John -
>Are those the small round thermal breakers as are found on the
>8000exl?
Yeah, pretty disgusting, ain't they?
>
>The reason that I ask is that we had problems with the breakers and
>ended up replacing them with a 240 volt double pole breaker switch on
>our 8000EXL.
>
>The 240 volt double pole breaker was a standard Briggs part, but we
>had to mill an opening for it in the control panel cover.
> Phil
I've done something similar on all my other generators but I haven't gotten a round
tuit yet with this one. It's a backup for my homemade diesel generator so I haven't
paid it much attention.
I did use it for about 1000 hours to run a concession stand. AT about that time it
sunk one end of both pushrods. The steel insert in the aluminum rod simply pushed
its way into the soft aluminum. I was fortunate to get all the pieces out without
having to disassemble the engine. I bought new rods but before I use it much again I
think I'll make new ones out of thin wall 4130 tubing.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Democracy is three wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper.
Neon John
>I checked all the wires for skins, pinched etc, and have not found
>none, I will see what the power is behind the breaker, can you please
>tell me how to check a 30amp 120 locking outlet?
>
>Brian
If memory serves, that's a 16L-30 twistlock outlet. Google for that and the first
hit or two will show the pin-out. It's a 120/240 outlet. The slot with the notch is
ground and I believe the opposite slot is neutral but check a diagram to be sure.
I'd probe between the side (hot) slots and ground with an ohmmeter. There'll be a
couple of ohms representing the generator winding but it should not be a dead short.
Disconnect the rest of the circuit from the output side of the breaker, make sure the
breaker doesn't still trip from some internal defect, and then connect one
sub-circuit at a time.
If you have an amp-clamp then you can clamp each wire inside the control box to see
where the current is flowing.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Give Blood. 8 Billion Mosquitoes can't be wrong.
Steve Spence
You can find a variety of connector sizes and views at
http://www.elect-spec.com/catalog.htm#General%20Interest
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
"Neon John" <n...@never.com> wrote in message
news:qhf363pm875f4hmqq...@4ax.com...
philkryder
> On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 07:38:00 -0000, philkryder <alt.goo...@Kryder.com> wrote:
> >John -
> >Are those the small round thermal breakers as are found on the
> >8000exl?
>
> Yeah, pretty disgusting, ain't they?
>
>
>
> >The reason that I ask is that we had problems with the breakers and
> >ended up replacing them with a 240 volt double pole breaker switch on
> >our 8000EXL.
>
> >The 240 volt double pole breaker was a standard Briggs part, but we
> >had to mill an opening for it in the control panel cover.
> > Phil
>
> I've done something similar on all my other generators but I haven't gotten a round
> tuit yet with this one. It's a backup for my homemade diesel generator so I haven't
> paid it much attention.
>
> I did use it for about 1000 hours to run a concession stand. AT about that time it
> sunk one end of both pushrods. The steel insert in the aluminum rod simply pushed
> its way into the soft aluminum. I was fortunate to get all the pieces out without
> having to disassemble the engine. I bought new rods but before I use it much again I
> think I'll make new ones out of thin wall 4130 tubing.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Democracy is three wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper.
John -
As I understand it, the aluminum push rod is for exhaust only.
The aluminum push rod is used to try to keep exhaust valve clearance
tight when hot by matching the coefficient of thermal expansion of the
aluminum block.
4130 won't expand as much.
philkryder
Our problem was similar, but not at warmup.
On thing to watch out for if you disassembled the panel, is that the
wire colors may not match what is embossed on the outlets.
Try to find a wiring diagram from briggs or generac.
Neon John
>I think you mean L6-30. Usually found in 208v 3 phase systems.
>
>You can find a variety of connector sizes and views at
>http://www.elect-spec.com/catalog.htm#General%20Interest
No, I meant what I said. Almost. It's actually an L14-30.
http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/dept_id_1014.htm
The connector is specifically made for 4 wire 120/240 single phase circuitry.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
I'm going crazy. Wanna come along?
philkryder
Brian -
You reference a 30amp 120 volt locking outlet.
John is referencing a 120/240 L14-30 outlet.
Does your outlet have 3 blades or 4?
Do you have a Generac IPL or wiring diagram?
or
Is this the Briggs IPL of the model that you have?
http://shop.briggsandstratton.com/BShopProductPage.asp?CatalogID=7A490210-617E-4B58-A939-32C0538E8C0C&MECID=100&SessionID=0ED17CD2-A94B-44A5-8781-A2F9B547A017&CategoryID=&lrid=&ProductID=4A5B1BA0-7F55-4A98-892B-11B244E4FDA0#
You'll note that the Briggs has the 4 blade NEMA L14-30.
The IPL I link to also shows the wiring layout (if that is your
model).
If not, let's find you a Generac IPL that matches your model.
Phil
philkryder
Is this the wiring diagram below the one for your model?
Note the wire colors carefully.
Do they match your setup?
Note that the "OUTLET TAB MUST BE BROKEN OFF" on the dual 120 volt
outlet.
http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/WD/01657_2wds.pdf
It is a Generac 7000EXL.
It has the 120 volt 3 blade locking outlet.
I'm guessing that this is your model.
If you can, you might consider using the 120/240 volt 4 blade outlet.
Briggs/Generac has a nice cable that plugs into that outlet and gives
you multiple 120 volt plugs.
The 120/240 volt outlet is protected by the double pole breaker, which
worked better for us.
Here is the IPL.
http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/IPL/01657_2partslistCw.pdf
Brian Ramsey
>
> - Show quoted text -
I am getting 175 volts behind the breaker. it should be 120 volts
right?
Brian Ramsey
>
> You'll note that the Briggs has the 4 blade NEMA L14-30.
>
> The IPL I link to also shows the wiring layout (if that is your
> model).
>
> If not, let's find you a Generac IPL that matches your model.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
it has 3 blades on it.
Brian Ramsey
>
> - Show quoted text -
can you send me the link for the breaker you are talking about? I can
not find this.
Brian
Neon John
>
>I am getting 175 volts behind the breaker. it should be 120 volts
>right?
That's from a hot leg to neutral or hot to hot. Hot leg to neutral should be 120.
Hot to hot should be 240. Way high for hot-neutral, way low for hot-hot. If it's
hot to neutral, check the OTHER hot leg to neutral. If it's also high then I'd be
looking at the voltage regulator. If it's low then there is probably a ground in one
stator winding. That would change the neutral point from midway between the hot legs
like it should be to something else. The windings between the neutral and the short
and also likely short circuited which would cause overheating, though I'm not sure
how it would cause a breaker to trip without a load.
Unfortunately they don't make a full service manual available online like the old
Generac company (Generac-portable is now black and decker) does for their RV
generators.
I can't recall off the top of my head what the voltage regulator input and outputs
should be but I believe that the input is 120vac and the output is about 24 volts
with no load. The wiring diagrams for the EXL and my QuietPack 55G are almost
identical. The service manual IS available for that model.
http://www.guardiangenerators.com/PublicPDFs/E7225.pdf
It contains some good diagnostic procedures such as disconnecting the voltage
regulator, applying 12 volts and measuring the output which should be around 60 volts
leg to neutral.
Did you ever figure out which particular model you have and select the service manual
from the Generac site? Having the schematic in front of us would be very helpful.
Is this the right model?
http://www.generac-portables.com/service_support/owner_manuals/search_results.cfm
Hmmm, one of my odd habits - of taking anything new apart and photographing it - may
pay off here. The 7000EXL regulator looks (almost) identical to the one in my
QuietPack. Assuming for a moment that it is, check the regulator and see if it has a
voltage adjustment potentiometer on the regulator. Look at the QuietPack manual
above for details of finding and adjusting it. It may be that the guy who replaced
the old regulator didn't bother to adjust the voltage.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
What do you call a blonde's cranial cavity? Vacuum chamber?
Brian Ramsey
> On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 14:46:19 -0700, Brian Ramsey <ramse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I am getting 175 volts behind the breaker. it should be 120 volts
> >right?
>
> That's from a hot leg to neutral or hot to hot. Hot leg to neutral should be 120.
> Hot to hot should be 240. Way high for hot-neutral, way low for hot-hot. If it's
> hot to neutral, check the OTHER hot leg to neutral. If it's also high then I'd be
> looking at the voltage regulator. If it's low then there is probably a ground in one
> stator winding. That would change the neutral point from midway between the hot legs
> like it should be to something else. The windings between the neutral and the short
> and also likely short circuited which would cause overheating, though I'm not sure
> how it would cause a breaker to trip without a load.
>
> Unfortunately they don't make a full service manual available online like the old
> Generac company (Generac-portable is now black and decker) does for their RV
> generators.
>
> I can't recall off the top of my head what the voltage regulator input and outputs
> should be but I believe that the input is 120vac and the output is about 24 volts
> with no load. The wiring diagrams for the EXL and my QuietPack 55G are almost
> identical. The service manual IS available for that model.
>
> http://www.guardiangenerators.com/PublicPDFs/E7225.pdf
>
> It contains some good diagnostic procedures such as disconnecting the voltage
> regulator, applying 12 volts and measuring the output which should be around 60 volts
> leg to neutral.
>
> Did you ever figure out which particular model you have and select the service manual
> from the Generac site? Having the schematic in front of us would be very helpful.
>
>
> Hmmm, one of my odd habits - of taking anything new apart and photographing it - may
> pay off here. The 7000EXL regulator looks (almost) identical to the one in my
> QuietPack. Assuming for a moment that it is, check the regulator and see if it has a
> voltage adjustment potentiometer on the regulator. Look at the QuietPack manual
> above for details of finding and adjusting it. It may be that the guy who replaced
> the old regulator didn't bother to adjust the voltage.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> What do you call a blonde's cranial cavity? Vacuum chamber?
Thanks I will look into the info you provided. the manual for the
generator is located here. it is not much help.
http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/gen/1470_0en6w.pdf
Thaks for you willingness to help.
Brian
philkryder
I should have said R14-30 not L14-30.
Then, I think that you should IGNORE the info about the R14-30.
That Is a 240 volt outlet.
This link was at the BRIGGs site. Ignore it.
You seem to have the GENERAC (as you said) not the BRIGGs.
Therefore, go see my other posts where I posted the GENERAC PDFs.
philkryder
>Unfortunately they don't make a full service manual available online like the old
> Generac company (Generac-portable is now black and decker) does for their RV
> generators.
>
> ---
> John De Armond
John - it seems that the Generac portables are not B&D but rather
B&S...
Can you clarify which parts of the company went where?
philkryder
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> can you send me the link for the breaker you are talking about? I can
> not find this.
>
> Brian
I "think" that you already have one on your generator.
It is part number 10 in the diagram at:
http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/IPL/01657_2partslistCw.pdf
10 191480AGS BREAKER, Circuit, 30A, 2P
BUT, you should find the "problem" with your high or low voltage as
John suggests.
It doesn't seem reasonable to change breakers until you have
identified voltages and corrected them if needed.
Steps we should take:
1) Confirm that you have a Generac and not a Briggs.
?? If a Generac, (which I'm assuming it is) then continue, else
STOP.
2) Explicitly write down the exact steps leading to the breaker
popping.
2a) unplug all attached loads
2b) make sure that the main breaker/switch is OFF.
2c) start engine
2d) warm up engine
2e) ?? does the Left breaker "pop" at this point??
If yes, then stop. If NO, then contiue.
2f) Turn the main breaker/switch to ON - this should expose a RED
part of the switch.
2g) ??? does the breaker "pop" at this point.
If yes, then stop. If NO, then contiue.
2h) Check votages:
Across each of the 120 outlet and note them.
Then,
Hot to Hot on the 240 volt outlet - the one with 4 openings).
Do one Hot to Ground on the 240.
Repeat for the other Hot outlet on the 240.
Repeat for each of the Hot outlets, but this time check to the
NEUTRAL outlet.
3) REPORT BACK.
Brian Ramsey
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > can you send me the link for the breaker you are talking about? I can
> > not find this.
>
> > Brian
>
> I "think" that you already have one on your generator.
>
> It is part number 10 in the diagram at:
Yes it is number 10 in the diagram
> http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/IPL/01657_2partslistC...
>
> 10 191480AGS BREAKER, Circuit, 30A, 2P
>
> BUT, you should find the "problem" with your high or low voltage as
> John suggests.
> It doesn't seem reasonable to change breakers until you have
> identified voltages and corrected them if needed.
yes, I kept the old one as a extra
> Steps we should take:
> 1) Confirm that you have a Generac and not a Briggs.
> ?? If a Generac, (which I'm assuming it is) then continue, else
> STOP.
yes, it is a Generac not a B&S
> 2) Explicitly write down the exact steps leading to the breaker
> popping.
> 2a) unplug all attached loads
> 2b) make sure that the main breaker/switch is OFF.
> 2c) start engine
> 2d) warm up engine
> 2e) ?? does the Left breaker "pop" at this point??
it seems to pop after 30 Seconds after starting the engine. I have
counted time and time again 25 to 30 seconds.
> If yes, then stop. If NO, then contiue.
> 2f) Turn the main breaker/switch to ON - this should expose a RED
> part of the switch.
> 2g) ??? does the breaker "pop" at this point.
> If yes, then stop. If NO, then contiue.
> 2h) Check votages:
> Across each of the 120 outlet and note them.
> Then,
> Hot to Hot on the 240 volt outlet - the one with 4 openings).
> Do one Hot to Ground on the 240.
> Repeat for the other Hot outlet on the 240.
> Repeat for each of the Hot outlets, but this time check to the
> NEUTRAL outlet.
I get no power on any outlet that is what I do not understand I
checked the wiring diagram at
http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/WD/01657_2wds.pdf
all the outlets seem to piggyback off of each other and not
independent to the breaker.
also if you do not mind answering what does the system control board
do? could this be a problem?
> 3) REPORT BACK.- Hide quoted text -
Brian Ramsey
> On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 14:46:19 -0700, Brian Ramsey <ramse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I am getting 175 volts behind the breaker. it should be 120 volts
> >right?
>
> That's from a hot leg to neutral or hot to hot. Hot leg to neutral should be 120.
> Hot to hot should be 240. Way high for hot-neutral, way low for hot-hot. If it's
> hot to neutral, check the OTHER hot leg to neutral. If it's also high then I'd be
> looking at the voltage regulator. If it's low then there is probably a ground in one
> stator winding. That would change the neutral point from midway between the hot legs
> like it should be to something else. The windings between the neutral and the short
> and also likely short circuited which would cause overheating, though I'm not sure
> how it would cause a breaker to trip without a load.
>
> Unfortunately they don't make a full service manual available online like the old
> Generac company (Generac-portable is now black and decker) does for their RV
> generators.
>
> I can't recall off the top of my head what the voltage regulator input and outputs
> should be but I believe that the input is 120vac and the output is about 24 volts
> with no load. The wiring diagrams for the EXL and my QuietPack 55G are almost
> identical. The service manual IS available for that model.
>
> http://www.guardiangenerators.com/PublicPDFs/E7225.pdf
>
> It contains some good diagnostic procedures such as disconnecting the voltage
> regulator, applying 12 volts and measuring the output which should be around 60 volts
> leg to neutral.
>
> Did you ever figure out which particular model you have and select the service manual
> from the Generac site? Having the schematic in front of us would be very helpful.
>
>
> Hmmm, one of my odd habits - of taking anything new apart and photographing it - may
> pay off here. The 7000EXL regulator looks (almost) identical to the one in my
> QuietPack. Assuming for a moment that it is, check the regulator and see if it has a
> voltage adjustment potentiometer on the regulator. Look at the QuietPack manual
> above for details of finding and adjusting it. It may be that the guy who replaced
> the old regulator didn't bother to adjust the voltage.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> What do you call a blonde's cranial cavity? Vacuum chamber?
I do not see any place on the regulator to ajust
philkryder
Just to be sure, you are saying that you start the engine with the
MAIN BREAKER OFF.
And, yet only ONE of the 120 volt breakers pops? the left one?
Please confirm.
Brian Ramsey
>
> - Show quoted text -
these breakers are the push button type, with the breaker pushed in,
it will pop 30 seconds after starting, just the left breaker is
popping not the other 3 breakers. the far lft and the one right next
to it are 30 amp breakers and the last two are 20 amp breakers. i am
running at a loss here. no one in the area will work on the generac
products just the B&S ones, I really hate to chunk this unit but by
the looks of it, I am going to have to. if I leave the breaker
tripped, the other breakers stay pressed it but, no power from the
panel. I really like to thank everyone here for there input and
willingness to help with this!
Bria n
philkryder
Lets try again.
Please answer these specific questions:
1) IS THERE A SINGLE LARGE SQUARE BREAKER/SWITCH?
if yes, then
2) Is it OFF when you start the engine?
philkryder
Brian
In this diagram:
http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/IPL/01657_2partslistCw.pdf
The leftmost breaker is the SQUARE Breaker/Switch.
Is that the one that is popping?
philkryder
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I am getting 175 volts behind the breaker. it should be 120 volts
> right?
Brian -
When you took this reading of 175 volts, which specific contacts were
you checking?
Please verify that it was THE BOTTOM 2 - #44 and #11 in the diagram
here:
http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/WD/01657_2wds.pdf
philkryder
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I am getting 175 volts behind the breaker. it should be 120 volts
> right?
Brian -
If
This unit has an IDLE CONTROL SWITCH, BE SURE IT IS TURNED OFF until
you understand the problem. The IDLE control switch will reduce RPM
under no load, and may have been the cause of your LOW (170 volt
reading) from wire 11 to 44.
- (see Part #5) at
http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/IPL/01657_2partslistCw.pdf
philkryder
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I am getting 175 volts behind the breaker. it should be 120 volts
> right?
NO - it should be 220 - 240 if you are measuring from wire 11 to wire
44.
Brian Ramsey
>
> - Show quoted text -
I just seen the diagram, hthe breaker is not a large square it is the
push button type, the diagram shows a square breaker. there is not one
on this unit.
Brian
Brian Ramsey
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I am getting 175 volts behind the breaker. it should be 120 volts
> > right?
>
> Brian -
> When you took this reading of 175 volts, which specific contacts were
> you checking?
> Please verify that it was THE BOTTOM 2 - #44 and #11 in the diagram
>
> - Show quoted text -
yes, it was 44 and 11
Brian Ramsey
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I am getting 175 volts behind the breaker. it should be 120 volts
> > right?
>
> Brian -
> If
> This unit has an IDLE CONTROL SWITCH, BE SURE IT IS TURNED OFF until
> you understand the problem. The IDLE control switch will reduce RPM
> under no load, and may have been the cause of your LOW (170 volt
> reading) from wire 11 to 44.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
yes, the idle control switch is off.
philkryder
> tripped, the other breakers stay pressed it but, no power from the
> panel.
That is because ALL power flows first through the large square Breaker/
switch.
If it pops, nothing else will have power.
Now that you have wiring diagrams, you might consider re-checking the
FIRST THING THAT YOU DID.
Was that Changing the Brushes and regulator board?
Check them against the diagram.
Brian Ramsey
I went over the diagram all is in place. this unit does not have the
big square breaker. it has the 4 push buttons.
Brian
Brian Ramsey
also, if this helps, I am reading about 40 ohm's through the outlets
and the breakers with the unit off. i am at a total lose with this.
Brian
philkryder
do you have a link to a diagram that shows that configuration?
Neon John
portable line went to B&S. The Generac line of standby generators and the Guardian
line of standby generators and RV generators are still with the old company. This
isn't authorities. Just the result of my studying both web sites and corporate
filings.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill.
Neon John
>I get no power on any outlet that is what I do not understand I
>checked the wiring diagram at
>
>http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/WD/01657_2wds.pdf
>
>all the outlets seem to piggyback off of each other and not
>independent to the breaker.
All the wires are right there in the box so you can physically trace them out. Have
you done the test that I requested where you remove the load side wire from the
breaker and see if it still trips? You're going to have to go about this
methodically if you're to find the problem.
>
>also if you do not mind answering what does the system control board
>do? could this be a problem?
Please read the diagnostic section of the QuietPack generator that I pointed you to
last night. The control circuits are essentially the same. Appear to use mostly the
same wire labeling, even.
I suggest you do the 12 volt test detailed in the QuietPack manual. Apply 12 volts
from a battery to the field and measure the output voltage. Finding that voltage
correct will pretty much clear the generator head itself.
Couple other things. You really need to spend a little more effort writing up what
you're doing. It's hard to figure out what you really did with these one sentence
replies.
Please, pretty please, trim your posts. I lack the patience to scroll though too
much quoted text to get to the new nuggets.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
If we aren't supposed to eat animals, why are they made with meat?
Brian Ramsey
>
> - Show quoted text -
here is the link i have been looking at.
http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/gen/1470_0en6w.pdf
Neon John
<here's how we snip the trash...>
>
>In this diagram:
>http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/IPL/01657_2partslistCw.pdf
>
>The leftmost breaker is the SQUARE Breaker/Switch.
>
>Is that the one that is popping?
>
>
If his is like mine he doesn't have a square breaker. Only 4 push-button breakers
lined up in a row like this:
http://www.neon-john.com/Breakers.jpg
The "illustrated wiring diagram for this unit is not correct. I don' know what unit
that is actually for. The correct diagram is in the 7000EXL User's guide, document
1657_0efw.pdf on that same page. Look on pages 14 and 15. One is a schematic and
the other is a pictorial.
Once we get on the same page then we can proceed.
There are FOUR pushbutton thermal breakers. The one on the left (right on the
pictorial) feeds the hot side of the 30 amp 120 volt 3 terminal twist-lock and one
side of the 4 terminal twist lock and it feeds the third breaker which in turn feeds
one side of the 20 amp convenience outlet. The second breaker does essentially the
same thing with the other leg of the generator output.
All the wiring is right there in the terminal box so it will be trivial to trace out
once everyone is looking at the right schematic.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to eat vegetables!
James Storm
duplex broken off like it is supposed to be? Your short has to be at one
of the outlets.
Stormy
Brian Ramsey
> >In this diagram:
> >http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/IPL/01657_2partslistC...
>
> >The leftmost breaker is the SQUARE Breaker/Switch.
>
> >Is that the one that is popping?
>
> If his is like mine he doesn't have a square breaker. Only 4 push-button breakers
> lined up in a row like this:
>
> http://www.neon-john.com/Breakers.jpg
>
> The "illustrated wiring diagram for this unit is not correct. I don' know what unit
> that is actually for. The correct diagram is in the 7000EXL User's guide, document
> 1657_0efw.pdf on that same page. Look on pages 14 and 15. One is a schematic and
> the other is a pictorial.
>
> Once we get on the same page then we can proceed.
>
> There are FOUR pushbutton thermal breakers. The one on the left (right on the
> pictorial) feeds the hot side of the 30 amp 120 volt 3 terminal twist-lock and one
> side of the 4 terminal twist lock and it feeds the third breaker which in turn feeds
> one side of the 20 amp convenience outlet. The second breaker does essentially the
> same thing with the other leg of the generator output.
>
> All the wiring is right there in the terminal box so it will be trivial to trace out
> once everyone is looking at the right schematic.
>
> John
I will got through thr troubleshooting steps in the link you send me,
also to get a better understanding here is a like to pictures I took
of the generator
http://picasaweb.google.com/ramseybr/Generator
this should give you a little idea of what I see.
Thanks,
Brian
philkryder
> If his is like mine he doesn't have a square breaker. Only 4 push-button breakers
> lined up in a row like this:
>
> http://www.neon-john.com/Breakers.jpg
>
John - when I went to your JPG page, the breakers were cut off and
only the outlets were showing.
But, I get the idea.
> The "illustrated wiring diagram for this unit is not correct. I don' know what unit
> that is actually for. The correct diagram is in the 7000EXL User's guide, document
> 1657_0efw.pdf on that same page. Look on pages 14 and 15. One is a schematic and
> the other is a pictorial.
I think it is more a case of not having synchronized revision levels
rather than being "wrong."
The owners manual with the 4 round breakers is either this page (model
1470 rev 6!! 07/08/2003)
http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/gen/1470_0en6w.pdf
or this page (Rev 0 - 10/12/2001):
http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/gen/1657_0efw.pdf
Both are earlier than the wiring diagrams (REV 08 18 05):
http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/WD/01657_2wds.pdf
and IPL (Rev C 3/30/2006):
http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/IPL/01657_2partslistCw.pdf
The later manuals show the square breaker.
I think it would be good to remove each OUTPUT wire from the 30 amp
breakers.
Then, turn off the idle switch (so that the engine runs at full RPM).
Then start the Engine
Then check VOLTAGE across the two Hot poles of the 240 volt outlet.
We should see 240 volts.
Then check voltage to neutral - should be 120.
philkryder
> > If his is like mine he doesn't have a square breaker. Only 4 push-button breakers
> > lined up in a row like this:
>
> >http://www.neon-john.com/Breakers.jpg
>
> John - when I went to your JPG page, the breakers were cut off and
> only the outlets were showing.
>
> But, I get the idea.
>
> > The "illustrated wiring diagram for this unit is not correct. I don' know what unit
> > that is actually for. The correct diagram is in the 7000EXL User's guide, document
> > 1657_0efw.pdf on that same page. Look on pages 14 and 15. One is a schematic and
> > the other is a pictorial.
>
> I think it is more a case of not having synchronized revision levels
> rather than being "wrong."
>
> The owners manual with the 4 round breakers is either this page (model
> or this page (Rev 0 - 10/12/2001):http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/gen/1657_0efw.pdf
>
> Both are earlier than the wiring diagrams (REV 08 18 05):http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/WD/01657_2wds.pdf
>
>
> The later manuals show the square breaker.
>
> I think it would be good to remove each OUTPUT wire from the 30 amp
> breakers.
>
> Then, turn off the idle switch (so that the engine runs at full RPM).
>
> Then start the Engine
>
> Then check VOLTAGE across the two Hot poles of the 240 volt outlet.
>
> We should see 240 volts.
>
> Then check voltage to neutral - should be 120.
I meant to remove them from each of the 20 amp 120 volts, rather than
the 30 amp.
************** >>>>>> But, your picture HELPED.
Take a look at the Blue and Grey wires as they enter the 120/240 4
prong outlet.
You have the GREY (44A) and BLUE next to each other.
Remember that John said earlier that they should be OPPOSITE each
other.
And that the NEUTRAL and GROUND should be opposite each other.
Look at Page 2 of the wiring diagram here:
http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/WD/01657_2wds.pdf
And even better,
Look also at the wiring diagrams or page 15 of the owners manual
http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/gen/1657_0efw.pdf
Rotate the PDF 180 degrees so that it matches your picture.
You will see that:
In your picture, 44A Gray is at the lower left - the wiring diagram
shows NO WIRES be at the lower left - that is the GROUND. It appears
that is grounded by connection to the panel.
In your picture, 11A Blue is at the upper left, that matches the
diagram.
In your picture, 22 RED is at the lower right, but the diagram shows
that a 44A Grey should be at the lower Right.
I'm hesitant to make suggestions as to what you should do.
But, I would consider trying to match the wiring diagram...
Phil
Brian Ramsey
> the 30 amp.
>
> ************** >>>>>> But, your picture HELPED.
>
> Take a look at the Blue and Grey wires as they enter the 120/240 4
> prong outlet.
>
> You have the GREY (44A) and BLUE next to each other.
>
> Remember that John said earlier that they should be OPPOSITE each
> other.
> And that the NEUTRAL and GROUND should be opposite each other.
>
> Look at Page 2 of the wiring diagram here:http://www.generac-portables.com/data/pdf_files/WD/01657_2wds.pdf
>
> And even better,
>
> Rotate the PDF 180 degrees so that it matches your picture.
>
> You will see that:
> In your picture, 44A Gray is at the lower left - the wiring diagram
> shows NO WIRES be at the lower left - that is the GROUND. It appears
> that is grounded by connection to the panel.
>
> In your picture, 11A Blue is at the upper left, that matches the
> diagram.
>
> In your picture, 22 RED is at the lower right, but the diagram shows
> that a 44A Grey should be at the lower Right.
>
> I'm hesitant to make suggestions as to what you should do.
> But, I would consider trying to match the wiring diagram...
I seen this over and over again and thought is was a misprint. I moved
the wires around "to the diagram specs" and I will fire it up in the
morning. people will get made at me for firing this monster up at
1:30am. if this works, I will send you a bottle of what ever you
drink!
Brian
Neon John
>I will got through thr troubleshooting steps in the link you send me,
>also to get a better understanding here is a like to pictures I took
>of the generator
OK. As you're doing each one write down each step that you take and the results.
Which wires you lift and what you do with them. Doing remote diagnosis, the little
details matter.
>
>http://picasaweb.google.com/ramseybr/Generator
>
>this should give you a little idea of what I see.
That's a start, enough to tell me I want to see more but they're sufficiently out of
focus that I can't see the detail that I need.
I'd like for you to shoot the end of the generator head again, like the second photo
in your gallery. Try to focus on the wiring instead of the end of the shaft. If
your camera has any sort of zone focusing (little square in the display that you can
put on what you want in-focus) then please use it. I'd like to see another shot up
close of the left side of the generator in the area where that little finned
rectifier is screwed down and the windings in the upper left quadrant.
Next, take another one of the back of the control panel, making sure the focus is
perfect. Then I'd like close-ups of the collection of breakers, and another of the
backsides of the three outlets. Try to fill the frames with these details.
When you put the photos up, please put them up at high resolution, if not at the res
they came out of the camera. It'll take me awhile to download them on this %^&^&*^
dial-up connection but I need the detail to work with.
Couple more questions. Is the back of the red panel beneath all the wiring smoked up
or is that just the effect of the photograph?
In the first photo that shows the voltage regulator board, what is that stuff at the
lower left end of the board, in the corner of the box? Is that just dirt or where
water has been or where blue smoke leaked out of the board.
Is that the board you changed out? If so, did you make doubly sure that the mounting
screws didn't contact any traces on the board? Were there insulating washers on the
screws under the board? A ground to the wrong trace on that board could completely
throw off the voltage regulation.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Multitasking: Reading in the bathroom!
Brian Ramsey
all right guys, we have power throughout the board, it was a wire that
was put in the wrong place. here is the story,
Last summer I took the Generator a repair shop around the corner do to
no power on the board. he told me I needed a new breaker, brushes and
regulator that cost me $311.78 installed, he took me around back to
show me it works and it did. I never used it after that. so it looks
like he moved a wire around on me to get me to come bck this year. ha!
no way! you people went above and beyond to help me out. and it
WORKS!!! so, I am going to donate $350.00 to:
http://www.homesforourtroops.org/site/PageServer
i seen this group work here in my area and they are great!
I am going to make donate the money in all of you good peoples name.
Thank you and god bless you.
Brian Ramsey
Neon John
><snip>
>
>all right guys, we have power throughout the board, it was a wire that
>was put in the wrong place. here is the story,
>
>Last summer I took the Generator a repair shop around the corner do to
>no power on the board. he told me I needed a new breaker, brushes and
>regulator that cost me $311.78 installed, he took me around back to
>show me it works and it did. I never used it after that. so it looks
>like he moved a wire around on me to get me to come bck this year. ha!
That SOB. Ya outta name names so he can be on this international sh*t list.
>no way! you people went above and beyond to help me out. and it
>WORKS!!! so, I am going to donate $350.00 to:
>
>http://www.homesforourtroops.org/site/PageServer
>
>i seen this group work here in my area and they are great!
>
>I am going to make donate the money in all of you good peoples name.
>
>Thank you and god bless you.
Thanks much. Outcomes like yours makes all the time I spend on this-here net
worthwhile. That organization sound like a genuine Good Thing so I'd be honored to
have my name associated with your donation. (lack of) After-service care for GIs is
a very sore spot for me so I'm glad to see such an outfit exists.
Hey, do you still have the old regulator? I bet there's nothing wrong with it. I'd
like to get my hands on it to see. Also to reverse-engineer to post a schematic to
the net so that others can make their own if they choke on the $250-300 these dealers
charge for that $5 board.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Serenity: That feeling of knowing that your secretary will never tell either of your wives.
Brian Ramsey
> >all right guys, we have power throughout the board, it was a wire that
> >was put in the wrong place. here is the story,
>
> >Last summer I took the Generator a repair shop around the corner do to
> >no power on the board. he told me I needed a new breaker, brushes and
> >regulator that cost me $311.78 installed, he took me around back to
> >show me it works and it did. I never used it after that. so it looks
> >like he moved a wire around on me to get me to come bck this year. ha!
>
> That SOB. Ya outta name names so he can be on this international sh*t list.
I called his number, he is no longer around. guess why?
>
> >no way! you people went above and beyond to help me out. and it
> >WORKS!!! so, I am going to donate $350.00 to:
>
> >http://www.homesforourtroops.org/site/PageServer
>
> >i seen this group work here in my area and they are great!
>
> >I am going to make donate the money in all of you good peoples name.
>
> >Thank you and god bless you.
>
> Thanks much. Outcomes like yours makes all the time I spend on this-here net
> worthwhile. That organization sound like a genuine Good Thing so I'd be honored to
> have my name associated with your donation. (lack of) After-service care for GIs is
> a very sore spot for me so I'm glad to see such an outfit exists.
I agree, I try to help as much as I can. it is a very good
organization.
> Hey, do you still have the old regulator? I bet there's nothing wrong with it. I'd
> like to get my hands on it to see. Also to reverse-engineer to post a schematic to
> the net so that others can make their own if they choke on the $250-300 these dealers
> charge for that $5 board.
send me a email to rams...@gmail.com with your address, I will send
it to you. I still have it.
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email addresshttp://www.neon-john.com
Brian Ramsey
Neon John
>> Hey, do you still have the old regulator? I bet there's nothing wrong with it. I'd
>> like to get my hands on it to see. Also to reverse-engineer to post a schematic to
>> the net so that others can make their own if they choke on the $250-300 these dealers
>> charge for that $5 board.
>
>send me a email to rams...@gmail.com with your address, I will send
>it to you. I still have it.
Just sent the email. Thanks. Before we close this thread, which wire was in the
wrong place?
philkryder
Brian - I'm glad it's working for you.
Thanks for the fun - it was just difficult enough to be interesting,
but I learned some things from John stepping through the daisies.
It reminded me of a joke in my former line of work - mainframe system
programming.
We had a fake computer assembler language instruction that we called
"SRM" - Set Right Manual -
It really does make a difference to match the docs to reality.
Further,
I appreciate the donation and your commitment to our troops.
Much better than anything I could drink.
Good job!
I would suggest that you download and retain the relevant PDFs.
Things at these companies sometimes "disappear" as ownership changes.
Best.
Phil
philkryder
Brian -
Two other things:
1) BE VERY SURE, to USE a suitable ground.
I believe that there is a ground lug on the generator head.
Make sure that you have a good high quality ground and appropriate
wire.
You might want to check on local code as to whether it should be a
common ground with your home.
You might also want to research the concept of a ground bonded
neutral.
2) I hope your weather is so good you never have to use the generator.
Often, just being prepared is its own reward.
Best
Phil
Brian Ramsey
>
> Thanks for the fun - it was just difficult enough to be interesting,
> but I learned some things from John stepping through the daisies.
>
> It reminded me of a joke in my former line of work - mainframe system
> programming.
> We had a fake computer assembler language instruction that we called
> "SRM" - Set Right Manual -
> It really does make a difference to match the docs to reality.
>
> Further,
> I appreciate the donation and your commitment to our troops.
> Much better than anything I could drink.
> Good job!
> I would suggest that you download and retain the relevant PDFs.
>
> Things at these companies sometimes "disappear" as ownership changes.
>
> Best.
>
I downloaded the the pdf,s and again thank you for your help!
Brian
Brian Ramsey
> Brian -
> Two other things:
> 1) BE VERY SURE, to USE a suitable ground.
> I believe that there is a ground lug on the generator head.
> Make sure that you have a good high quality ground and appropriate
> wire.
> You might want to check on local code as to whether it should be a
> common ground with your home.
> You might also want to research the concept of a ground bonded
> neutral.
>
> 2) I hope your weather is so good you never have to use the generator.
> Often, just being prepared is its own reward.
>
> Best
> Phil- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thank you for the advice, I will check into that. can I ground it on
my ground on the side of my house?
also, I was late sending the regulators to you they went out today.
Brian
philkryder
I hope you are sending the regulators to John.
I have enough fun things going on.
I'm going to pass on giving advice about grounding over the internet.
I'd contact a local licensed electrician.
But, also search the news groups.
Grounding has been discussed.
I just want to be sure that you do it well and use it.
Best
Phil