Inexpensive 24 or 48 volt inverters
Neon John
Does anyone know of a source of inexpensive 24 or 48 volt input modified sine
wave inverters? I'm not interested in the high dollar Outbacks and Xantrexes
and stuff. I'm looking for a higher input voltage version of the $149 2500
watt inverter that Harbor Freight sells. Neither output waveform quality nor
a built-in charger is important in this application. Just a simple 48 volt
in, 120 volt out inverter will do. Mild googling hasn't found me anything.
Thanks,
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Hell is truth seen too late. -Hobbs
Ken Maltby
"Neon John" <n...@never.com> wrote in message
news:8dv794p3khi8sdugo...@4ax.com...
I don't know how much help this will be, but I picked up a
Datashield AT-1500 for $4.95 when a local electronics
supply outfit was cleaning out one of their warehouses.
It is an UPS that runs from an external 48v battery bank.
The one I've got was never used (or sold, I expect) but it
is as solid as a rock and I can't see much that would make
a used one go bad. You might get lucky, with an old 48v
UPS at a low price. Just another option you might not have
considered.
Luck;
Ken
Vaughn Simon
"Ken Maltby" <kma...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1NmdnYUoDLPPXwnV...@giganews.com...
>
> The one I've got was never used (or sold, I expect) but it
> is as solid as a rock and I can't see much that would make
> a used one go bad. You might get lucky, with an old 48v
> UPS at a low price. Just another option you might not have
> considered.
For a variety of reasons, UPSs generally (there may be important exceptions)
don't make good substitutes for inverters.
Vaughn
Ken Maltby
"Vaughn Simon" <vaughnsimo...@att.FAKE.net> wrote in message
news:ts4lk.144651$102....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
I'll take your word for it, that there could be issues for such
broad classifications as "UPSs" (which would cover a range
of devices) and what being "good substitutes for inverters"
might involve. (The one I mentioned weighs over 35#, so
it might not be the best choice to power a laptop in your truck.)
[ but with 1500watts to work with ...]
In general, I don't see a lot of difference between an inverter
and an UPS that is unplugged/disconnected from mains power.
The one I mentioned and a number of the older office appliance
commercial grade UPS were designed to use external battery
banks. Admittedly the charging circuits would go un-used, but I
don't see how that would prevent them from functioning as
inverters.
Then there is what "Neon John" actually asked for in his post:
"Neither output waveform quality nor a built-in charger is
important in this application. Just a simple 48 volt in, 120 volt
out inverter will do." The old UPSs can certainly meet that
list of requirements.
Now the UPS will have "a built-in charger", but you don't
have to plug it in. (You might have to disable the alarm circuit,
though. [ I'd wire in a disable/shutoff switch for the alarm, in
case I wanted it when/if I occasionally charged the battery bank
from the mains or a generator.]
Now, I am very curious as to what those "variety of reasons"
might be. If nothing else, they can be things to look out for when
I finally put the one I have to use.
Luck;
Ken
Bob F
The (smaller) UPSs that I've played with don't turn on the output unless A/C
power is on. Then, when it goes off, they continue to output.
Ken Maltby
"Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MZOdneb4ie8mawnV...@comcast.com...
>
> "Ken Maltby" <kma...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:NsidnQdzTJZWfgnV...@giganews.com...
>>
>>
>> might be. If nothing else, they can be things to look out for when
>> I finally put the one I have to use.
>>
>
> The (smaller) UPSs that I've played with don't turn on the output unless
> A/C power is on. Then, when it goes off, they continue to output.
>
Interesting, I take it you are referring to those with built-in batteries?
It sounds like a simple relay circuit to work around, though.
Luck;
Ken
Neon John
>
>The (smaller) UPSs that I've played with don't turn on the output unless A/C
>power is on. Then, when it goes off, they continue to output.
>
You're right Bob, which is why I asked very specifically for a particular
thing. Which, of course, didn't keep the bozos who just wanted to talk from
yammering off-thread.
Let me try this again. I'm looking for an inexpensive 24 or 48 volt INVERTER.
NOT a UPS, NOT combo charger/inverter, not anything else but a simple aluminum
box with terminals for 24 or 48 volts on one end and 120vac out the other. One
just like the many 12 volt in, 120vac out commodity boxes except that 24 or 48
volt electronics are substituted.
If you don't know about SIMPLE, CHEAP INVERTERS then please don't post to this
thread. If you want to talk about 24 or 48 volt UPSs then start your own
thread.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
It isn't Global Warming.... It's Jerry Falwell arriving in hell.
Ken Maltby
> On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 17:07:29 -0700, "Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>The (smaller) UPSs that I've played with don't turn on the output unless
>>A/C
>>power is on. Then, when it goes off, they continue to output.
>>
>
> You're right Bob, which is why I asked very specifically for a particular
> thing. Which, of course, didn't keep the bozos who just wanted to talk
> from
> yammering off-thread.
>
> Let me try this again. I'm looking for an inexpensive 24 or 48 volt
> INVERTER.
> NOT a UPS, NOT combo charger/inverter, not anything else but a simple
> aluminum
> box with terminals for 24 or 48 volts on one end and 120vac out the other.
> One
> just like the many 12 volt in, 120vac out commodity boxes except that 24
> or 48
> volt electronics are substituted.
>
> If you don't know about SIMPLE, CHEAP INVERTERS then please don't post to
> this
> thread. If you want to talk about 24 or 48 volt UPSs then start your own
> thread.
>
> John
> --
> John De Armond
>
Well, you are really something else. The fact that the UPS
I described meets the requirements you stated:
" Neither output waveform quality nor a built-in charger is
important in this application. Just a simple 48 volt in, 120
volt out inverter will do."
means nothing to you? You take it as "yammering off-
thread"? You are offended because the UPS includes an
inverter as a part of its construction?
Is it that the UPS includes a built-in charger? Does that
mean it really was important?, just important that it not be
there? Why?
So you don't want anyone offering any suggestion but
one that matches each exact word of your post, no
alternatives, should be offered or considered. Your
attitude when offered a simple suggestion, is not only way
too arrogant, but insulting (Bozo, indeed). I had thought
better of you, I guess I was mistaken.
Now, I am waiting for the long list of the Make and
Models of all the "SIMPLE, CHEAP INVERTERS" ,
with 24 or 48 volt input, that all your non-Bozo friends
have and continue to supply, to this thread.
For, if you can't be bothered to entertain any alternative
approach, that is all you have to hope for.
Luck;
Ken
Ron Rosenfeld
>Does anyone know of a source of inexpensive 24 or 48 volt input modified sine
>wave inverters? I'm not interested in the high dollar Outbacks and Xantrexes
>and stuff. I'm looking for a higher input voltage version of the $149 2500
>watt inverter that Harbor Freight sells. Neither output waveform quality nor
>a built-in charger is important in this application. Just a simple 48 volt
>in, 120 volt out inverter will do. Mild googling hasn't found me anything.
Dunno what you mean by "inexpensive" in this context, nor what power
capacity you are looking for.
http://shop.altenergystore.com/
has the Xantrex DR2424 for $907.50 and several "Samlex" 24V inverters, in
the 1000-1999 watt class, for under $500. (I don't know anything at all
about this Samlex brand). I see there is also a Samlex 1500W / 48V
inverter for $590.40
--ron
Ken Maltby
I guess I could give them a hand:
http://www.voltageconverters.com/inverters_110v.html
http://www.provantage.com/tripp-pv2400fc~7TRPI00X.htm
http://www.power-one.com/telecom-power/telecom-inverters.html
Vaughn Simon
"Ron Rosenfeld" <ronros...@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:db2b941ue7gslr70r...@4ax.com...
> http://shop.altenergystore.com/
>
> has the Xantrex DR2424 for $907.50 and several "Samlex" 24V inverters, in
> the 1000-1999 watt class, for under $500. (I don't know anything at all
> about this Samlex brand). I see there is also a Samlex 1500W / 48V
> inverter for $590.40
I have used that Samlex brand for microwave power supplies. They are a good
brand. That said, I think they are above the price point that John is looking
for.
John raised an interesting question, and it shows how important the mass
marget is to production costs. All else being equal, It should be cheaper to
make a 48 volt inverter than a 12 volt one, but there is a huge market for 12
volt inverters, and a much smaller one for 48 volt units. As a result, it is
difficult/impossible to find what John is looking for.
Vaughn
JimG64155
> Does anyone know of a source of inexpensive 24 or 48 volt input modified sine
> wave inverters? I'm not interested in the high dollar Outbacks and Xantrexes
In the past, this group has made 24 volt inverters: http://www.youlung.com/pi.htm
They are on Ebay as Power Jack Shopping Center. They have been pretty
good about pricing stuff (for me) that is not currently on auction.
Neon John
wrote:
>On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 02:28:37 -0400, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
>
>>Does anyone know of a source of inexpensive 24 or 48 volt input modified sine
>>wave inverters? I'm not interested in the high dollar Outbacks and Xantrexes
>>and stuff. I'm looking for a higher input voltage version of the $149 2500
>>watt inverter that Harbor Freight sells. Neither output waveform quality nor
>>a built-in charger is important in this application. Just a simple 48 volt
>>in, 120 volt out inverter will do. Mild googling hasn't found me anything.
>
>Dunno what you mean by "inexpensive" in this context, nor what power
>capacity you are looking for.
Cheap: sub-$200.
Power: 2kW, plus or minus.
>
>http://shop.altenergystore.com/
>
>has the Xantrex DR2424 for $907.50 and several "Samlex" 24V inverters, in
>the 1000-1999 watt class, for under $500. (I don't know anything at all
>about this Samlex brand). I see there is also a Samlex 1500W / 48V
>inverter for $590.40
That looks interesting, though people have sent me links via email for far
cheaper ones. I'll post my findings in a few days.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Serenity: That feeling of knowing that your secretary will never tell either of your wives.
phil-new...@ipal.net
| The (smaller) UPSs that I've played with don't turn on the output unless A/C
| power is on. Then, when it goes off, they continue to output.
I have heard that many UPSs do have a circuit that checks for correct power
source wiring (e.g. that hot/neutral are not reversed). This could be an
issue for a UPS that can do pass-through (most do). Cheaper test circuits
might only test the wire expected to be hot, and block powering on if that
one wire is not hot (under the theory that something is wrong in the wiring
feeding it power). Alternative, a test might be sending a small current to
the neutral and expecting it to come back over ground (e.g. that neutral is
indeed correctly bonded). An unplugged unit would fail that test.
There could be a complication if a UPS can turn on with no incoming AC power,
and then when the power does come on, or the unit is plugged in, with the AC
power miswired, and that unit can switch in a pass-through mode.
The (larger) UPS (dual conversion continuous online type) that I have can turn
on from a state where it is off and unplugged. I have not yet had the chance
to test it from an off state plugged into a dead power source, either one that
is correctly wired, or one that is reversed.
This is the model I have right now:
http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products/model.cfm?txtModelID=3300
$472.84 @ http://www.provantage.com/tripp-su1500xl~7TRPL1LK.htm
$499.99 @ http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842111148
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
| Usenet from these places, find another Usenet provider ASAP. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) |
phil-new...@ipal.net
| Well, you are really something else. The fact that the UPS
| I described meets the requirements you stated:
|
| " Neither output waveform quality nor a built-in charger is
| important in this application. Just a simple 48 volt in, 120
| volt out inverter will do."
|
| means nothing to you? You take it as "yammering off-
| thread"? You are offended because the UPS includes an
| inverter as a part of its construction?
|
| Is it that the UPS includes a built-in charger? Does that
| mean it really was important?, just important that it not be
| there? Why?
Not all UPSes can successfully operate the inverter part independently.
They may require, at minimum, the UPS controller logic. And that logic
may include battery testing that might be at best confused by an external
DC power source. A true inverter expects (is designed for) an external
battery source.
| So you don't want anyone offering any suggestion but
| one that matches each exact word of your post, no
| alternatives, should be offered or considered. Your
| attitude when offered a simple suggestion, is not only way
| too arrogant, but insulting (Bozo, indeed). I had thought
| better of you, I guess I was mistaken.
|
| Now, I am waiting for the long list of the Make and
| Models of all the "SIMPLE, CHEAP INVERTERS" ,
| with 24 or 48 volt input, that all your non-Bozo friends
| have and continue to supply, to this thread.
An inverter is cheaper than the same inverter packaged with a charger,
battery, and controller that have no use for the application in mind.
An inverter designed specifically as an inverter may well operated in a
different way more suited for the variety of external DC sources that
could power it.
The OP was also not concerned with waveform quality. Presumably, something
that outputs a rough square wave (simple full wave chopper circuit, perhaps)
would suit his needs, provided he could operate it from his 48 volt source,
and that it is cheap (no frills, just work converting 48VDC to some kind of
120VAC).
| For, if you can't be bothered to entertain any alternative
| approach, that is all you have to hope for.
I think the OP is smart enough to have already considered a UPS alternative.
While he and I do rustle feathers a lot, I have seen his posts for years and
I know his technical knowledge is extensive.
I'm not knocking your technical knowledge ... I just happen to not know much
about it. But you can be more of a contribution, allowing others to make use
of your technical knowledge (if you so choose), but understanding better what
people ask for, and try better to stay on track. Or find another thread.
I can understand the temptation to divert the topic to an alternative under
various assumptions of his application. For example, one might assume he is
intending to power some 120 volt incandescent lights. And the alternative
suggestion would be to find 48 volt lights (I've seen them). But such an
alternative suggestion is a waste of time if his application really is to
run a 120 volt space heater, or to power a string of Christmas lights that
I've never seen available for 48 volts (even if the bulbs could be found,
the wiring is likely not rated for the higher amperage involved).
I don't know what his application is because he didn't say. But I'm not
going to make assumptions. If he wanted alternative ways to deal with just
that application, he could state what the application is. That's up to him.
phil-new...@ipal.net
Apparently the 12V-input inverters will be cheaper due to economy of scale
for the "cheap" class. People wanting inverters for permanent home power
systems are more likely to go more rugged units that do at least some kind
of sine wave so more things can operate from it.
I've been (not agrresively) hunting for an inverter that can provide a few
times its normal maximum average operating current briefly for motor start
purposes (like A/C, garbage disposal), like 120 amps for 1 second when it
is normally a 20 amp unit. But it seems to get that 120 amps quick surge
you have to go with something that is designed to deliver 100 amps continuous
which makes the cost go way up (presumably 5x as much or more due to lack of
economy of scale). But if most people don't care to run motors on their
inverted power system, or at least only small motors, I guess then I am
stuck with either buying something way over rated for my real needs, or
designing and building it myself.
phil-new...@ipal.net
It's all part of the economy of scale that favors the cheaper devices that
form a part of the spiral to the bottom of quality.
Ken Maltby
<phil-new...@ipal.net> wrote in message
news:g751j...@news5.newsguy.com...
> On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 02:46:08 -0500 Ken Maltby <kma...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
> | Well, you are really something else. The fact that the UPS
> | I described meets the requirements you stated:
> |
> | " Neither output waveform quality nor a built-in charger is
> | important in this application. Just a simple 48 volt in, 120
> | volt out inverter will do."
> |
> | means nothing to you? You take it as "yammering off-
> | thread"? You are offended because the UPS includes an
> | inverter as a part of its construction?
> |
> | Is it that the UPS includes a built-in charger? Does that
> | mean it really was important?, just important that it not be
> | there? Why?
>
> Not all UPSes can successfully operate the inverter part independently.
> They may require, at minimum, the UPS controller logic. And that logic
> may include battery testing that might be at best confused by an external
> DC power source. A true inverter expects (is designed for) an external
> battery source.
>
My post wasn't about ALL UPSs, the type I described
were explicitly designed for an external battery source.
(Again, read my posts, not the clipped versions in a reply.)
>
> | So you don't want anyone offering any suggestion but
> | one that matches each exact word of your post, no
> | alternatives, should be offered or considered. Your
> | attitude when offered a simple suggestion, is not only way
> | too arrogant, but insulting (Bozo, indeed). I had thought
> | better of you, I guess I was mistaken.
> |
> | Now, I am waiting for the long list of the Make and
> | Models of all the "SIMPLE, CHEAP INVERTERS" ,
> | with 24 or 48 volt input, that all your non-Bozo friends
> | have and continue to supply, to this thread.
>
> An inverter is cheaper than the same inverter packaged with a charger,
> battery, and controller that have no use for the application in mind.
>
? Cheaper than $4.95? Did you actually read my post? And
what I described have no internal batteries. The only
requirement Neon John mentioned was a 120v output. He
also implied that it should be able to provide 2500watts.
> An inverter designed specifically as an inverter may well operated in a
> different way more suited for the variety of external DC sources that
> could power it.
>
Now that could require some more explanation, or is it
pure speculation? Particularly about these different versions
of 48v DC.
> The OP was also not concerned with waveform quality. Presumably,
> something
> that outputs a rough square wave (simple full wave chopper circuit,
> perhaps)
> would suit his needs, provided he could operate it from his 48 volt
> source,
> and that it is cheap (no frills, just work converting 48VDC to some kind
> of
> 120VAC).
>
Bozo to Non-Bozo:
Did you snip the part of my post that mentions the list you
would be providing of the Make & Models of all these
inverters that answer Neon John's post. (By the way,
you should be aware that you are disobeying your Master's
edict to not post to this thread unless you could provide him
info on such an inverter.)
>
> | For, if you can't be bothered to entertain any alternative
> | approach, that is all you have to hope for.
>
> I think the OP is smart enough to have already considered a UPS
> alternative.
> While he and I do rustle feathers a lot, I have seen his posts for years
> and
> I know his technical knowledge is extensive.
>
His technical knowledge was never in question, in fact I
have often supported the position he has taken in various
debates. That doesn't mean that he can't be a rude jerk
and act foolishly on this occasion.
> I'm not knocking your technical knowledge ... I just happen to not know
> much
> about it. But you can be more of a contribution, allowing others to make
> use
> of your technical knowledge (if you so choose), but understanding better
> what
> people ask for, and try better to stay on track. Or find another thread.
>
My post was certainly on track, and provided a viable option
that would meet the stated requirement. I will post to threads
that could use my input, even if the responders appear to be
a bunch of self absorbed ingrates.
> I can understand the temptation to divert the topic to an alternative
> under
> various assumptions of his application. For example, one might assume he
> is
> intending to power some 120 volt incandescent lights. And the alternative
> suggestion would be to find 48 volt lights (I've seen them). But such an
> alternative suggestion is a waste of time if his application really is to
> run a 120 volt space heater, or to power a string of Christmas lights that
> I've never seen available for 48 volts (even if the bulbs could be found,
> the wiring is likely not rated for the higher amperage involved).
>
> I don't know what his application is because he didn't say. But I'm not
> going to make assumptions. If he wanted alternative ways to deal with
> just
> that application, he could state what the application is. That's up to
> him.
>
MY only assumption was that he wanted a cheap way to
convert a 48v DC source into 120v AC @ 60cps. I wasn't
aware that it had to have inverter in it's name, or the revered
Neon John would be calling me a Bozo and consider my
suggestion "off topic".
Luck;
Ken
Ken Maltby
<phil-new...@ipal.net> wrote in message
news:g7502...@news3.newsguy.com...
> On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 17:07:29 -0700 Bob F <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> | The (smaller) UPSs that I've played with don't turn on the output unless
> A/C
> | power is on. Then, when it goes off, they continue to output.
>
> I have heard that many UPSs do have a circuit that checks for correct
> power
> source wiring (e.g. that hot/neutral are not reversed). This could be an
> issue for a UPS that can do pass-through (most do). Cheaper test circuits
> might only test the wire expected to be hot, and block powering on if that
> one wire is not hot (under the theory that something is wrong in the
> wiring
> feeding it power). Alternative, a test might be sending a small current
> to
> the neutral and expecting it to come back over ground (e.g. that neutral
> is
> indeed correctly bonded). An unplugged unit would fail that test.
>
Your imaginations might explain why this might happen
using one of the newer UPS, but is most unlikely for the older
48v UPSs I was describing.
> There could be a complication if a UPS can turn on with no incoming AC
> power,
> and then when the power does come on, or the unit is plugged in, with the
> AC
> power miswired, and that unit can switch in a pass-through mode.
>
?? "with the AC power miswired" ?? Talk about a stretch!
> The (larger) UPS (dual conversion continuous online type) that I have can
> turn
> on from a state where it is off and unplugged. I have not yet had the
> chance
> to test it from an off state plugged into a dead power source, either one
> that
> is correctly wired, or one that is reversed.
>
> This is the model I have right now:
>
> http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products/model.cfm?txtModelID=3300
>
> $472.84 @ http://www.provantage.com/tripp-su1500xl~7TRPL1LK.htm
> $499.99 @ http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842111148
>
> --
These appear to be current models, with many computer
control features. The older ones I described were much
simpler devices made to provide backup emergency power
to whatever equipment may be plugged into them, not just
computers, (in fact, most business computers in those days
were massive things with their own power arrangements).
There were plenty of smaller data handling devices that
benefited from such protection, though.
While it appears that your only links are to UPSs, that
appear to function a little like the old ones; in that at least
one (yours) can run unplugged, I still see no links that match
your master's edict.
Luck;
Ken
Cydrome Leader
>
> "Ron Rosenfeld" <ronros...@nospam.org> wrote in message
> news:db2b941ue7gslr70r...@4ax.com...
>> http://shop.altenergystore.com/
>>
>> has the Xantrex DR2424 for $907.50 and several "Samlex" 24V inverters, in
>> the 1000-1999 watt class, for under $500. (I don't know anything at all
>> about this Samlex brand). I see there is also a Samlex 1500W / 48V
>> inverter for $590.40
>
> I have used that Samlex brand for microwave power supplies. They are a good
> brand. That said, I think they are above the price point that John is looking
> for.
Do you know where this samlex stuff is made? They try hard to obscure who
they really are on the website.
I'm not sure about xantrex inverters, but their support is good on lab
power supplies, even the rebadged ones made in the UK and sold in the US.
phil-new...@ipal.net
| Now that could require some more explanation, or is it
| pure speculation? Particularly about these different versions
| of 48v DC.
It's from engineering notes on some UPSes. They do things like adjust
the inverter based on specific batteries included. They are not designed
for other kinds of batteries or like voltage sources. An inverter that
is designed for general use specifies the voltage, not particular types
of batteries.
|> The OP was also not concerned with waveform quality. Presumably,
|> something
|> that outputs a rough square wave (simple full wave chopper circuit,
|> perhaps)
|> would suit his needs, provided he could operate it from his 48 volt
|> source,
|> and that it is cheap (no frills, just work converting 48VDC to some kind
|> of
|> 120VAC).
|>
|
|
| Bozo to Non-Bozo:
|
| Did you snip the part of my post that mentions the list you
| would be providing of the Make & Models of all these
| inverters that answer Neon John's post. (By the way,
| you should be aware that you are disobeying your Master's
| edict to not post to this thread unless you could provide him
| info on such an inverter.)
Each post can extend the range of topic, once posted. If my post
were a direct reply to John, I'd be replying to what he asked.
FYI, I generally do try to snip down posts to show the _part_ I want to refer
to in my response. I try to avoid just including the whole thing. If someone
wants to read his whole post, they can read HIS whole post.
| His technical knowledge was never in question, in fact I
| have often supported the position he has taken in various
| debates. That doesn't mean that he can't be a rude jerk
| and act foolishly on this occasion.
I don't think he did in this case. Maybe he's a bit rough.
phil-new...@ipal.net
|
| <phil-new...@ipal.net> wrote in message
| news:g7502...@news3.newsguy.com...
|> On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 17:07:29 -0700 Bob F <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote:
|>
|> | The (smaller) UPSs that I've played with don't turn on the output unless
|> A/C
|> | power is on. Then, when it goes off, they continue to output.
|>
|> I have heard that many UPSs do have a circuit that checks for correct
|> power
|> source wiring (e.g. that hot/neutral are not reversed). This could be an
|> issue for a UPS that can do pass-through (most do). Cheaper test circuits
|> might only test the wire expected to be hot, and block powering on if that
|> one wire is not hot (under the theory that something is wrong in the
|> wiring
|> feeding it power). Alternative, a test might be sending a small current
|> to
|> the neutral and expecting it to come back over ground (e.g. that neutral
|> is
|> indeed correctly bonded). An unplugged unit would fail that test.
|>
|
| Your imaginations might explain why this might happen
| using one of the newer UPS, but is most unlikely for the older
| 48v UPSs I was describing.
Hopefully so. The info I described came from a support engineer at a
major USA UPS manufacturer. Chinese knockoffs might not have any such
test circuits.
|> There could be a complication if a UPS can turn on with no incoming AC
|> power,
|> and then when the power does come on, or the unit is plugged in, with the
|> AC
|> power miswired, and that unit can switch in a pass-through mode.
|>
|
| ?? "with the AC power miswired" ?? Talk about a stretch!
The complication is an issue of engineering design. They have to take
it into consideration to the extent of making sure at worst it will
gracefully shutdown in miswired cases, while making sure their output
is always safe if the unit stays on. I stated this to explain why a
UPS might shutdown, and thus why it might have some strange circuits
in it that could even be an issue when it's not plugged into AC at all.
Vaughn Simon
"Cydrome Leader" <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote in message
news:g75o33$itp$1...@reader1.panix.com...
>
> Do you know where this samlex stuff is made? They try hard to obscure who
> they really are on the website.
I am recently retired, so I don't have access to that equipment to look for
an origin tag. Like everything else, it is likely made in Asia somewhere. I
agree about their website, they and their products have always seemed a bit
mysterious. If it means anything, they do show up at trade shows. So I have
actually seen actual human beings from Samlex.
Vaughn
hubops
> So I have actually seen actual human beings from Samlex.
>Vaughn
... they fooled you, too, then .. ? :-)
jt
Ulysses
>
>
> His technical knowledge was never in question, in fact I
> have often supported the position he has taken in various
> debates. That doesn't mean that he can't be a rude jerk
> and act foolishly on this occasion.
>
Any time you post anything anywhere on the internet you take the risk that
someone might respond in an unpleasant manner. Sometimes the responses I
read can only be attributed to drug use. Other times they may actually make
a point. I have been called worse than "Bozo" but the bottom line to me is
that I find the information that I need and accomplish whatever it is I'm
trying to do. I just plain don't care if someone calls me names in the
process. I do, however, usually defend myself but generally limit this to
one or two lines. In your case I probably would have suggested something
like he simply use AC batteries and a transformer and then he could just use
a 12 volt inverter.
Ken Maltby
"Ulysses" <eatm...@spamola.com/> wrote in message
news:VYHlk.7014$Pe2.4160@fe95...
I'm a retired Platoon Sergeant, so "Bozo" is hardly a shock to
my system. I was somewhat surprised at Neon John's petulant
response to my original reply, though. I took some effort to
provide it as an alternative suggestion, (read my original post
to this thread, my post, not a clipped version). I have yet to see
how it was OT, and given the lack of listings of 48v DV to 120v
AC devices, an alternative Neon John (or others) might find
worth looking into.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "AC batteries",
though? There are a couple of approaches to DC-to-DC
conversion if that is what you are getting at, and could be
another viable alternative, but Neon John would have to
look on that as OT. You are risking being placed in the
Bozo camp, with me.
Luck;
Ken
va_gentech
> Does anyone know of a source of inexpensive 24 or 48 volt input modified sine
> wave inverters? I'm not interested in the high dollar Outbacks and Xantrexes
> and stuff. I'm looking for a higher input voltage version of the $149 2500
> a built-in charger is important in this application. Just a simple 48 volt
>
> John
> --
> John De Armond
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> Hell is truth seen too late. -Hobbs
Are you looking for something for the car? I like my 400 watt Husky
inverter found at Home Depot for approx. $45.
Ulysses
In my mind it was on-topic. In his mind it was off-topic. If it had been
suggested to me I would have appreciated it as something I may not have
considered. He had apparently already considered it at least to the point
of not considering it and had already dismissed it before you suggested it.
I think.
>
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "AC batteries",
> though? There are a couple of approaches to DC-to-DC
> conversion if that is what you are getting at, and could be
> another viable alternative, but Neon John would have to
> look on that as OT. You are risking being placed in the
> Bozo camp, with me.
>
Well, that would have been meant as a testy response since AC batteries
don't exist. I would not, however, suggest such a thing to someone who
appears to be a novice and therefore might spend days or weeks searching for
such a thing. Kinda like a left-handed monkey wrench. I'm just not that
mean.
> Luck;
> Ken
>
>
phil-new...@ipal.net
| On Aug 2, 1:28?am, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
|> Does anyone know of a source of inexpensive 24 or 48 volt input modified sine
|> and stuff. ?I'm looking for a higher input voltage version of the $149 2500
|> watt inverter that Harbor Freight sells. ?Neither output waveform quality nor
|> a built-in charger is important in this application. ?Just a simple 48 volt
|> in, 120 volt out inverter will do. ?Mild googling hasn't found me anything.
|>
|> Thanks,
|> John
|> --
|> John De Armond
|> See my website for my current email addresshttp://www.neon-john.comhttp://www.johndearmond.com<-- best little blog on the net!
|> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
|> Hell is truth seen too late. -Hobbs
|
| Are you looking for something for the car? I like my 400 watt Husky
| inverter found at Home Depot for approx. $45.
That runs from 24 or 48 volts DC input?
Neon John
>> I'm a retired Platoon Sergeant, so "Bozo" is hardly a shock to
>> my system. I was somewhat surprised at Neon John's petulant
>> response to my original reply, though. I took some effort to
>> provide it as an alternative suggestion, (read my original post
>> to this thread, my post, not a clipped version). I have yet to see
>> how it was OT, and given the lack of listings of 48v DV to 120v
>> AC devices, an alternative Neon John (or others) might find
>> worth looking into.
>
>In my mind it was on-topic. In his mind it was off-topic. If it had been
>suggested to me I would have appreciated it as something I may not have
>considered. He had apparently already considered it at least to the point
>of not considering it and had already dismissed it before you suggested it.
>I think.
I didn't see Maltby's whole comment, as he's filtered. Just the part that got
quoted. I can't remember why he's filtered but probably an off-topic
political comment at some point. Zero tolerance for that. It's a soft filter
that will expire in awhile. Anyway.
The reason that I sniped at a few people is that I get extremely frustrated
trying to keep the focus of my occasional question on the question. Like
herding cats! When I come to the net and ask a question, I've already googled
and looked in my dead tree library and looked in my fairly large archive of
saved documents and websites. I know exactly what I'm looking for or the
problem I'm trying to solve.
In this case, if I were interested in UPSs or rotary converters or
motor-generators or anything else except inverters, I'd have asked a general
question about where I could find devices to turn 24 or 48 volts into 120
volts. I wasn't. I was looking for a specific thing, a conventional cheap
inverter that would accept a higher than normal 12 volt input.
Problem is, the net is filled with people who just want to say something.
"Hey, look at me, I exist." Then there are those who hijack threads, usually
with inane political crap. Both phenomena have occurred in this thread. Makes
me almost want a moderated group. These phenomena are why Usenet is slowly
dying at the hands of ham-fisted, heavily moderated fora. I *hate* the forum
format so I say this with the utmost regret.
Fortunately, between people in this group who replied via email and people who
replied to the same query on an electric vehicle mailing list, I found exactly
what I wanted, and from more than one source. At the price that I wanted too.
In a separate thread (this one has become hopelessly content-free), I'll post
my results.
>
>>
>> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "AC batteries",
>> though? There are a couple of approaches to DC-to-DC
>> conversion if that is what you are getting at, and could be
>> another viable alternative, but Neon John would have to
>> look on that as OT. You are risking being placed in the
>> Bozo camp, with me.
>>
>
>Well, that would have been meant as a testy response since AC batteries
>don't exist. I would not, however, suggest such a thing to someone who
>appears to be a novice and therefore might spend days or weeks searching for
>such a thing. Kinda like a left-handed monkey wrench. I'm just not that
>mean.
If he's referring to part of my post, I probably used "AC" to mean air
conditioning instead of alternating current. I'm working on a battery powered
AC unit for my motorhome. An inverter driving a conventional single-phase
capacitor start compressor is one of about 9 different approaches that I've
identified and am evaluating. My goal is to be able to get through a night of
air conditioning without having to run the generator. This has already been
done for semis and boats but the systems are expensive. I'm going to do it
for RVs and do it cheaply.
An inverter driving a 60hz compressor motor may turn out to be too inefficient
but at least now I have that option to evaluate. One of the variations that
I'll be evaluating is to use two inverters, phase-locked 90 degrees apart, to
directly drive the two windings of a capacitor-run compressor. According to
my still-fairly-crude SPICE model will be significantly more efficient than
one inverter. So will running a smaller compressor at more than 60 hz.
I could simply design a purpose-built inverter for the project. No big deal. I
started designing solid state motor drives back in 1980. But I'm trying to
build this system from off-the-shelf parts, perhaps slightly modified, so that
others will be able to duplicate the project. I wonder how many people in
this group would LOVE to have an efficient 1 to 1.5 ton AC that operated
directly from 24 or 48 volts DC? Especially if the core of the system is a
cheap ChiCom window unit, disassembled for its useful parts.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to eat vegetables!
Ken Maltby
> On Tue, 5 Aug 2008 11:27:16 -0700, "Ulysses" <eatm...@spamola.com/>
> wrote:
>
>
> I didn't see Maltby's whole comment, as he's filtered. Just the part that
> got
> quoted. I can't remember why he's filtered but probably an off-topic
> political comment at some point. Zero tolerance for that. It's a soft
> filter
> that will expire in awhile. Anyway.
>
If you wish to filter my posts, please go ahead. While you
appear to be saying that NG threads are some sort of a
restricted forum that function to answer just the OP's interest/
query; I believe that the subjects raised and issues discussed
are there for the benefit of all who follow their interest in the
subject being discussed. This may shock you, but it is
possible that others might benefit from a reply that you don't
find useful. Another shock; if someone wants to reply in the
exact manner that you seem to be looking for - they can.
Nothing anyone else, (even me) might post or do, can stop
them, from posting a reply that conforms to your edicts, if
they want to.
> The reason that I sniped at a few people is that I get extremely
> frustrated
> trying to keep the focus of my occasional question on the question. Like
> herding cats! When I come to the net and ask a question, I've already
> googled
> and looked in my dead tree library and looked in my fairly large archive
> of
> saved documents and websites. I know exactly what I'm looking for or the
> problem I'm trying to solve.
>
Well you may keep your cats penned at home, on the
usenet all the cats run free. If they have something that
they feel aids the discussion, an idea, a question, or even
a gripe/complaint, they are purrfectly able to jump in.
Well... such preparation is commendable, but somewhat
uncommon. Most posters who adopt this attitude won't do
the simplest search before, arrogantly demanding that only
their approach to a problem be considered. Many of them
seem to approach a NG as if it were the paid support
function of whatever tech. has disturbed their lives.
> In this case, if I were interested in UPSs or rotary converters or
> motor-generators or anything else except inverters, I'd have asked a
> general
> question about where I could find devices to turn 24 or 48 volts into 120
> volts. I wasn't. I was looking for a specific thing, a conventional
> cheap
> inverter that would accept a higher than normal 12 volt input.
>
And you got so many replies that you would say matched
your request! There is obviously no reason to consider
alternatives, right?
> Problem is, the net is filled with people who just want to say something.
> "Hey, look at me, I exist." Then there are those who hijack threads,
> usually
> with inane political crap. Both phenomena have occurred in this thread.
They have??? Where? My ISP must be short changing me.
If any hijacking occurred it was occasioned by your OT name
calling and expounding on your philosophy of how the Net is
operating, and the motivations of the posters.
Again, if there were any who had wished to reply in a
manner you would have found more appropriate, nothing
was stopping them. I doubt their minds were so captivated
by the fact that UPSs include an inverter function, that they
neglected to supply you the answer you wanted.
> Makes
> me almost want a moderated group. These phenomena are why Usenet is
> slowly
> dying at the hands of ham-fisted, heavily moderated fora. I *hate* the
> forum
> format so I say this with the utmost regret.
>
> Fortunately, between people in this group who replied via email and people
> who
> replied to the same query on an electric vehicle mailing list, I found
> exactly
> what I wanted, and from more than one source. At the price that I wanted
> too.
> In a separate thread (this one has become hopelessly content-free), I'll
> post
> my results.
>
This is another example of how your approach differs from
mine. To me, having off thread discussions on the subject,
is a disservice to this NG. At least an "on topic" summary
should have been posted to this thread. The ideas presented
in your off thread discussions, might have been of real value
to others, reading this thread. I also would feel an obligation
to provide any "results", to this very thread, (especially, if I
had started it).
[ By the way, the off thread discussion about, what an ass
I am, could be left out of the summary, but that would be
your call.]
Now that you have described your project in more detail, I can
get even more "OT", from your point of view.
Have you considered this ( I know you hate Wiki, but too bad
it provides a quick and dirty starting point):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverter_(air_conditioning)
If you could find a cheap air conditioner that is using this
approach, you might be able to eliminate the rectifier and
provide a PWM control circuit to feed the air conditioner's
special built-in inverter, from your 48v DC source. It might
require a solid state DC-DC converter as well. Again, this
is another idea that you could consider.
While Neon John might consider it a hijack attempt, I
at least, would like to consider any thoughts others might
have on the idea.
Luck;
Ken
Ulysses
> dying at the hands of ham-fisted, heavily moderated fora. I *hate* the
forum
> format so I say this with the utmost regret.
What I don't like about forums is that they are so limited and Usenet is
worldwide.
>
> An inverter driving a 60hz compressor motor may turn out to be too
inefficient
> but at least now I have that option to evaluate. One of the variations
that
> I'll be evaluating is to use two inverters, phase-locked 90 degrees apart,
to
> directly drive the two windings of a capacitor-run compressor. According
to
> my still-fairly-crude SPICE model will be significantly more efficient
than
> one inverter. So will running a smaller compressor at more than 60 hz.
I assume you will be using two inveters that are already designed to be
connected in series?
>
> I could simply design a purpose-built inverter for the project. No big
deal. I
> started designing solid state motor drives back in 1980. But I'm trying to
> build this system from off-the-shelf parts, perhaps slightly modified, so
that
> others will be able to duplicate the project. I wonder how many people in
> this group would LOVE to have an efficient 1 to 1.5 ton AC that operated
> directly from 24 or 48 volts DC? Especially if the core of the system is
a
> cheap ChiCom window unit, disassembled for its useful parts.
Before I die I hope to find a cheap way to run AC so I'll be very interested
in your results. Meanwhile it's a good thing that evaporative cooling works
where I live.
BTW: this really is OT but I recently discovered that a problem with my
eu2000 abdomination of a couple of years ago probably was not a problem with
using the servo-controlled carburator. I was having problems with
inconsistant engine speed at low RPMs. It turns out there is something
wrong with the GC135 engine I was using. It keeps losing and recovering
power which causes it to slow down and speed up. So far I have not figured
out why. I have adjusted the valves, thoroughly checked the fuel system,
checked for spark failure, put in a new spark plug, eliminated the
possibility of the spark system grounding out, and anything else I can think
of. Maybe it has a bad governor gear but the problem still exists if I hold
the throttle in place. I can't just pull the head and check for carbon
deposits because it's one of those slant engines. I have a pile of "other"
ignition modules but none of them will fit on the CG135 even using only one
screw. It'll cost be about $45 to find out if it's the ignition. In any
case it looks more promising now to attach the PMA and Eco Throttle carb to
another engine. The really weird part of the whole thing was that when the
muffler fell off (the screw holes keep stripping and I have to re-tap them
bigger) the thing was putting out more power than ever--for a couple of
minutes. I tried a muffler for an 8 HP engine and it soon went back to
losing power.
Ken Maltby
provides a proper link to the page below:
Inverter (air conditioning)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The inverter tag found on some air conditioners signifies the ability of the
unit to continuously regulate its thermal power flow.
Traditional reverse-cycle air-conditioners use a heat pump that is either
working at maximum capability or switched off, as the compressor's speed
cannot be varied. In order to regulate temperature a thermistor is used to
measure the ambient air temperature and switch the compressor on when the
ambient air temperature is too far from the desired temperature
Air-conditioners bearing the inverter tag use a variable-frequency drive to
control the speed of the motor and thus the compressor. The
variable-frequency drive uses a rectifier to convert the incoming AC current
to DC and then uses pulse-width modulation of the DC current within an
inverter to produce AC current of a desired frequency. The AC current is
used to drive a brushless motor or an induction motor. As the speed of a
brushless motor is synchronised to the frequency of the AC current, it is
thus possible to build a compressor that can be run at different speeds.
Similarly, the voltage and frequency can be varied as needed to efficiently
run an induction motor at different speeds. A microcontroller can then
sample the current ambient air temperature and adjust the speed of the
compressor appropriately.
Eliminating stop-start cycles increases efficiency, extends the life of
components, and helps eliminate sharp fluctuations in the load the
air-conditioner places on the power supply.
The inverter principle has been applied to a wide range of household
appliances including microwave ovens, washing machines, and so on.
Retrieved from
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverter_%28air_conditioning%29"
Vaughn Simon
>
> It turns out there is something
> wrong with the GC135 engine I was using.
Chances are you already know about it, but this
http://www.perr.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2 is my favorite small engine forum.
--
Vaughn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nothing personal, but if you are posting through Google Groups I may not receive
your message. Google refuses to control the flood of spam messages originating
in their system, so on any given day I may or may not have Google blocked. Try
a real NNTP server & news reader program and you will never go back. All you
need is access to an NNTP server (AKA "news server") and a news reader program.
You probably already have a news reader program in your computer (Hint: Outlook
Express). Assuming that your Usenet needs are modest, use
http://news.aioe.org/ for free and/or http://www.teranews.com/ for a one-time
$3.95 setup fee.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Will poofread for food.
Vaughn Simon
> Air-conditioners bearing the inverter tag use a variable-frequency drive to
> control the speed of the motor and thus the compressor.
This is a technology that sort of snuck up on me over the last two or three
years. All of the really high efficiency central air conditioners lately seem
to use the VFD principle.
Just this week, I was shopping for a new mini-split for my bedroom. The
conventional units were SEER 13, but the similar inverter units were SEER 19.
That is a big difference! I do worry about the extra electronics though. I
live in a high-lightning area.
----------------------------------------------------
Getting back to John's project, vehicle DC-operated AC units are "out there"
in at least two applications that I can think of, but not anywhere where you are
likely to find one cheap. The first place that I ever noticed them is in light
aircraft. Expensive! Now, I understand the Prius has a DC AC unit. I imagine
that your average Prius is still several years from the junkyard, so I will be
interested to see the results of John's tinkering.
Here in FL, PV and a DC-operated AC unit could be a match made in heaven.
The output from the PV would closely track your need for AC on a hot day; so the
more the sun shines, the more power would be available to rev up your AC unit.
Ken Maltby
"Vaughn Simon" <vaughnsimo...@att.FAKE.net> wrote in message
news:cdpmk.292290$SV4.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Ken Maltby" <kma...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:-u2dnZz6daRycgTV...@giganews.com...
>> Air-conditioners bearing the inverter tag use a variable-frequency drive
>> to control the speed of the motor and thus the compressor.
>
> This is a technology that sort of snuck up on me over the last two or
> three years. All of the really high efficiency central air conditioners
> lately seem to use the VFD principle.
>
> Just this week, I was shopping for a new mini-split for my bedroom. The
> conventional units were SEER 13, but the similar inverter units were SEER
> 19. That is a big difference! I do worry about the extra electronics
> though. I live in a high-lightning area.
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Getting back to John's project, vehicle DC-operated AC units are "out
> there" in at least two applications that I can think of, but not anywhere
> where you are likely to find one cheap. The first place that I ever
> noticed them is in light aircraft. Expensive! Now, I understand the
> Prius has a DC AC unit. I imagine that your average Prius is still
> several years from the junkyard, so I will be interested to see the
> results of John's tinkering.
>
While it may be unlikely that you could get lucky at your local
"Pick&Pull", an examination of how the Prius functions, if it is
a DC "AC" as you describe, could be worth looking into, and not
only for Neon John's project.
> Here in FL, PV and a DC-operated AC unit could be a match made in
> heaven. The output from the PV would closely track your need for AC on a
> hot day; so the more the sun shines, the more power would be available to
> rev up your AC unit.
>
> Vaughn
>
I would think many in humid places like Florida could benefit
from having an air conditioner that would run continuously while
the sun shines. It could both cool, and more importantly, dry the
air. If it ran off dedicated PV panels, it could have a significant
impact on the monthly electric bill, even if it only provided a part
of the total cooling load. If it were a modified "inverter" air
conditioner, and would be working harder as more solar power
is available, it might be even more effective.
OT- You know I think I may have figured out what got me on
Neon John's Filtered list. It could have been my; "Why don't
we "Matrix" the cows, for power?" thread from awhile back.
Luck;
Ken
phil-new...@ipal.net
| If you wish to filter my posts, please go ahead. While you
| appear to be saying that NG threads are some sort of a
| restricted forum that function to answer just the OP's interest/
| query; I believe that the subjects raised and issues discussed
| are there for the benefit of all who follow their interest in the
| subject being discussed. This may shock you, but it is
| possible that others might benefit from a reply that you don't
| find useful. Another shock; if someone wants to reply in the
| exact manner that you seem to be looking for - they can.
| Nothing anyone else, (even me) might post or do, can stop
| them, from posting a reply that conforms to your edicts, if
| they want to.
When someone talks about something related to the previous post, it can
extend the subject. That extended subject is now a wider scope of
acceptable responses, and the OP's question might not be the target of
the response.
Still, there are frequently many people that respond with the OP's
question as the intended target, but don't actually answer that question.
They often do the effect of making up the question they wish the OP
had asked, and answer that one.
| Well you may keep your cats penned at home, on the
| usenet all the cats run free. If they have something that
| they feel aids the discussion, an idea, a question, or even
| a gripe/complaint, they are purrfectly able to jump in.
Staying on topic, considering it can expand, is the civil behaviour.
Got a different topic? Start a new thread with a new subject.
People do get filtered or blocked when they don't follow that or
other civil behaviours.
| Well... such preparation is commendable, but somewhat
| uncommon. Most posters who adopt this attitude won't do
| the simplest search before, arrogantly demanding that only
| their approach to a problem be considered. Many of them
| seem to approach a NG as if it were the paid support
| function of whatever tech. has disturbed their lives.
That doesn't mean we have to patronize them. OTOH, some people really
to the initial leg work then someone accuses them of not doing it.
How did they (think that they) knew the OP didn't?
|> In this case, if I were interested in UPSs or rotary converters or
|> motor-generators or anything else except inverters, I'd have asked a
|> general
|> question about where I could find devices to turn 24 or 48 volts into 120
|> volts. I wasn't. I was looking for a specific thing, a conventional
|> cheap
|> inverter that would accept a higher than normal 12 volt input.
|>
|
| And you got so many replies that you would say matched
| your request! There is obviously no reason to consider
| alternatives, right?
Since the OP in this thread asked for an inverter, I never considered a
UPS as a solution. From my experience, components inside a UPS are not
always suitable to operate independently, at least not in a "UL listed"
safe way. While I know that parts from a UPS can be used to this, I do
know the OP knows this, and I am confident enough he knows this to not
be concerned with raising it.
Bruce in alaska
<cdpmk.292290$SV4.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Vaughn Simon" <vaughnsimo...@att.FAKE.net> wrote:
> This is a technology that sort of snuck up on me over the last two or
> three
> years. All of the really high efficiency central air conditioners lately
> seem
> to use the VFD principle.
>
> Just this week, I was shopping for a new mini-split for my bedroom. The
> conventional units were SEER 13, but the similar inverter units were SEER 19.
> That is a big difference! I do worry about the extra electronics though. I
> live in a high-lightning area.
Vaughn, just make sure that you have a GOOD Set of Varisters, or Zots
across the Power Lines to Ground and a good, solid, Low Impedance
Central Ground for your House, and you will be fine. Most VFD's these
days are Industrial quality.
--
Bruce in alaska
add <path> after <fast> to reply
Ulysses
>
> "Ulysses" <eatm...@spamola.com/> wrote in message
> news:Gelmk.5297$KK4...@fe111.usenetserver.com...
> >
> > It turns out there is something
> > wrong with the GC135 engine I was using.
>
> Chances are you already know about it, but this
> http://www.perr.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2 is my favorite small engine
forum.
Thanks. I didn't know about it cause I don't like forums very much ;-)
I guess I didn't put that very well about forums not being world-wide. They
are just a lot harder to find than Usenet and then you need a bunch of
passwords and such and only a few people are likely to actually read your
posts etc.
Cydrome Leader
>
> Does anyone know of a source of inexpensive 24 or 48 volt input modified sine
> and stuff. I'm looking for a higher input voltage version of the $149 2500
> watt inverter that Harbor Freight sells. Neither output waveform quality nor
> a built-in charger is important in this application. Just a simple 48 volt
> in, 120 volt out inverter will do. Mild googling hasn't found me anything.
This is grasping at straws, and if you can find any that are cheap, please
share-
for 48 to 120, there are telecom inverters. Lucent and Major Power make
them, and they're very expensive but available in that power range.
It's possible there are used ones out there for pennies on the dollar,
like with ferroresonant power conditioners.
phil-new...@ipal.net
| Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
|>
|> Does anyone know of a source of inexpensive 24 or 48 volt input modified sine
|> wave inverters? I'm not interested in the high dollar Outbacks and Xantrexes
|> and stuff. I'm looking for a higher input voltage version of the $149 2500
|> watt inverter that Harbor Freight sells. Neither output waveform quality nor
|> a built-in charger is important in this application. Just a simple 48 volt
|> in, 120 volt out inverter will do. Mild googling hasn't found me anything.
|
| This is grasping at straws, and if you can find any that are cheap, please
| share-
|
| for 48 to 120, there are telecom inverters. Lucent and Major Power make
| them, and they're very expensive but available in that power range.
And they expensive because?
1. 48 volts is harder to deal with than 12 volts.
2. There's very little consumer market for 48 volt stuff.
3. Telcom needs special features in their inverters.
4. It's easy to overprice stuff being sold to big corporations.
Vote now.
Neon John
>| for 48 to 120, there are telecom inverters. Lucent and Major Power make
>| them, and they're very expensive but available in that power range.
>
>And they expensive because?
>
>1. 48 volts is harder to deal with than 12 volts.
Actually 48 volts is EASIER to deal with at a given wattage than 12 volts. For
power FETS, what almost every inverter uses, the conduction losses are
proportional to I^2R. A 48 volt inverter draws but a quarter the current of a
12 volt inverter of the same size. All else being equal, that equals 1/4 the
number of FETs and 1/16th the thermal losses. It's rare to find a power FET
with a voltage rating lower than 60 volts anymore so the same device will
probably be used at both 12, 24 and 48 volts. The lower voltage simply
requires more of 'em.
The economy of scale of 12 volt inverter manufacturer is more than offset by
the reduction in power devices and the reduced heat that has to be disposed
of. That's why, with the help of some folks who actually know what they're
talking about, I've been able to find high voltage inverters in the same price
range as 12 volt one.
JOhn
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Remember, amateurs made the Ark, professionals made the Titanic.
Ken Maltby
Perhaps, you could provide these sources, if not as a consideration
to those who may have been following this thread, then to increase
the sales of these products. Even if you feel none who posted here
are among the "folks who actually know what they're talking about"
there could be a lurker, who has a clue. Besides you stated earlier:
"I could simply design a purpose-built inverter for the project. But I'm
trying to build this system from off-the-shelf parts, perhaps slightly
modified, so that others will be able to duplicate the project."
I actually think there are a few of us here who would be interested in
48v "SIMPLE, CHEAP INVERTERS", it is the subject of the thread,
no one will claim you are going OT. Is there some reason you are
keeping the sources secret? A special deal? (That would be OT
by your definition.)
Luck;
Ken
Cydrome Leader
> On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 22:24:32 +0000 (UTC) Cydrome Leader <pres...@mungepanix.com> wrote:
> | Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
> |>
> |> Does anyone know of a source of inexpensive 24 or 48 volt input modified sine
> |> wave inverters? I'm not interested in the high dollar Outbacks and Xantrexes
> |> and stuff. I'm looking for a higher input voltage version of the $149 2500
> |> watt inverter that Harbor Freight sells. Neither output waveform quality nor
> |> a built-in charger is important in this application. Just a simple 48 volt
> |> in, 120 volt out inverter will do. Mild googling hasn't found me anything.
> |
> | This is grasping at straws, and if you can find any that are cheap, please
> | share-
> |
> | for 48 to 120, there are telecom inverters. Lucent and Major Power make
> | them, and they're very expensive but available in that power range.
>
> And they expensive because?
>
> 1. 48 volts is harder to deal with than 12 volts.
huh?
> 2. There's very little consumer market for 48 volt stuff.
so?
> 3. Telcom needs special features in their inverters.
actually they don't.
> 4. It's easy to overprice stuff being sold to big corporations.
wrong
You still can't figure it out?
phil-new...@ipal.net
| On 9 Aug 2008 23:41:59 GMT, phil-new...@ipal.net wrote:
|
|
|>| for 48 to 120, there are telecom inverters. Lucent and Major Power make
|>| them, and they're very expensive but available in that power range.
|>
|>And they expensive because?
|>
|>1. 48 volts is harder to deal with than 12 volts.
|
| Actually 48 volts is EASIER to deal with at a given wattage than 12 volts. For
| power FETS, what almost every inverter uses, the conduction losses are
| proportional to I^2R. A 48 volt inverter draws but a quarter the current of a
| 12 volt inverter of the same size. All else being equal, that equals 1/4 the
| number of FETs and 1/16th the thermal losses. It's rare to find a power FET
| with a voltage rating lower than 60 volts anymore so the same device will
| probably be used at both 12, 24 and 48 volts. The lower voltage simply
| requires more of 'em.
I take that as a vote for #2, #3, or #4.
| The economy of scale of 12 volt inverter manufacturer is more than offset by
| the reduction in power devices and the reduced heat that has to be disposed
| of. That's why, with the help of some folks who actually know what they're
| talking about, I've been able to find high voltage inverters in the same price
| range as 12 volt one.
That's great news. Viva la 48 volts!
phil-new...@ipal.net
Where's your vote? This was a poll/vote. You're supposed to vote. Of course
there are trick answers in there.
ongrid...@gmail.com
> Does anyone know of a source of inexpensive 24 or 48 volt input modified sine
> wave inverters? I'm not interested in the high dollar Outbacks and Xantrexes
> and stuff. I'm looking for a higher input voltage version of the $149 2500
> watt inverter that Harbor Freight sells. Neither output waveform quality nor
> a built-in charger is important in this application. Just a simple 48 volt
> in, 120 volt out inverter will do. Mild googling hasn't found me anything.
>
> John
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I started to search for all the brands for ongrid inverters and created a spreadsheet sorted by price/watt.
I hope all of you can contribute to it so we'll know what is the cheapest product. I found the lowest price/watt to be 0.18$ . Lets see if we can find anything lower... Check my table here and post your findings so I can update it.
http://ongridmaster.blogspot.ro/p/brand-model-power-watts-price-watt.html
I will continue with research on solar panels to find the best price / watt
This is not a commercial link and I'm sorry if I'm not allowed to post URLs.
Thank you,
OnGrid Master
Jim Rojas
than 50 percent of their rated input wattage. If you run them at 100
percent, they will be very short lived.
I use the smaller 300 watt units made in China because they are cheap,
and they offer spare parts kits for those of you that don't mind doing
your own repairs. I have 4 years into my setup now, I have yet to repair
or replace any of them. 300 watt units will set you back $100 each.
Alternators:
Bank 1: 2 units giving me 1600 watts
Bank 2. 2 units giving me 1600 watts
Bank 3: 2 units giving me 1600 watts
Bank 4: 2 units giving me 1600 watts
I use a sprinkler valve & Insteon Automation Timer on each bank to
alternate odd & even banks each week. In the summer months, the banks
run at slightly higher RPM.
Inverters:
Bank 1: 15 units giving me 2000+ watts of useful power 24 hours a day
Bank 2: 15 units giving me 2000+ watts of useful power 24 hours a day
My electric bill use to be $250 a month on regular months, and $400 a
month during the hot summer season in Florida. Forget buyback meters to
sell back to the grid...a big waste of time and money. Be glad to reduce
your bill. I now pay on average $60 a month.
You should start off small like I did. With each passing month as your
bill drops, set aside the extra cash and purchase a couple more at a
time. Within 6 months to 1 year, you will have all the power you need
without the need of those bogus rebates, etc. offered by the government
or your local utility.
My system uses running water to provide the DC power. I purchased a
total of 8 GM CS144 100-150 Amp alternators from my local junkyard at
$10-15 each, then replaced the rotor with Neodymium magnets for very low
start up RPM to provide plenty of power. At idle, they provide about 800
watts each. I run them at no more than 800-1200RPM, and only 2 have
failed in 4 years. I easily replaced the windings for $10 each from an
ebay seller. Other than the rotor, you really don't need to anything
special other than remove the alternator diode pack. It is best to let
the alternators provide only 3 phase AC and use an external bank of 6
50Amp full wave bridge rectifiers that are also cheap on ebay. I connect
2 rectifiers per phase to reduce the amps & heat per unit, thus
prolonging their life as well. Run a 16-14 gauge generator extension
cord from each alternator back to where your inverters are. This will
save you alot of money in maintenance the long run.
You can then use off the shelf copper battery cables to connect the
power to each inverter. Car stereo amp cables can also be used. I have 4
readouts that show me the incoming volts and amps from each bank. So you
know instantly how much power you are generating at all times.
Jim Rojas
Technical Manuals Online!
http://www.tech-man.com
8002 Cornwall Lane
Tampa, FL 33615-4604
813-884-6335
813-440-6653 Fax
Email: jro...@tech-man.com
AOL: rojas813
MSN: jimr...@hotmail.com
Yahoo: jimrojas
ICQ: 20116219
GoogleTalk: Roja...@gmail.com
mike
.
>
> My system uses running water to provide the DC power.
Florida is pretty flat. How did you obtain
a water supply with some head.
Legal issues getting permissions to divert it etc.?
What kinds of systems did you use to convert the head
to rotational energy? Volumes/velocities/efficiencies etc?
My impression is, that here in Oregon, even if you have
a stream running thru the middle of your property, you're
not allowed to spit within 10 feet of it, much less divert it for power
generation.
Jim Rojas
2 alternating 1.5HP 220V pool pumps drives the entire setup. They each
take turns every 4 hours.
There are 2 freshwater pumps in series. The internal impeller was
replaced with a pelton style wheel for maximum force. This pump is
readily available at Northern Tools. The pelton wheel was purchased on
ebay for $249 each.
The freshwater pumps are turning a 20" cast iron wheel from an old
diesel generator. 2 belts then drives the alternators.
So for every single turn of the 20" wheel, the alternator spins about 10
times. So if the 20" wheel is spinning at say 100RPM, the alternators
are running at roughly idle speed.
2 manual water valves control the water flow, one is a bypass valve, the
other is the valve going to the freshwater pumps. I could have installed
a governor, but I wanted to keep the system as simple as possible. If I
need more RPM, I slowly close the bypass valve in relation to the pump
feed to achieve this easily.
This system by no means is perfect. It requires daily inspection, and it
does require grid power to run. But the point is to reduce my overall
electric usage by using a my pool pump that needs to run anyway. If for
any reason my system shuts down, I receive a text message on my cell phone.
Water pressure, gravity, centrifugal force play an important part here.
At first I had the fresh water pumps working great. But once the sand
filter started getting clogged, the entire system would come to a
screeching halt. Because the system runs 24/7, the sand filter needs to
be backwashed once a week. When the pool is not in use, I put a screen
cover to keep the leaves and other debris from getting into the pool. A
screen room would be nice, but it is not in the allowable budget at this
time. To solve this issue for now, I installed a second sand filter in
parallel. I installed a manual valve on the input side of the sand
filter. This now allows backwashing without having to turn off the pumps
whatsoever.
By county code, I am allowed to generate up to 5KW of usable power with
no permits of any kind needed. Anything above that just requires a
permit which runs about $15 a year, with no annual official inspections.
mike
Can you disclose the numbers?
How much real power are you using to run the pump?
How much continuous real power can you get out of the inverter?
How much real power would it take to run a high efficiency pool
filter system without the power generation?
If you take net power consumption and subtracted from the
high-efficiency filter
system power, what's the payback period on the investment for the power
generation component?
Vaughn
> mike wrote:
>> On 11/22/2012 10:40 AM, Jim Rojas wrote:
>> .
>>>
>>> My system uses running water to provide the DC power.
>> I'd like to hear more about the running water.
>> Florida is pretty flat. How did you obtain
>> a water supply with some head.
>> Legal issues getting permissions to divert it etc.?
>> What kinds of systems did you use to convert the head
>> to rotational energy? Volumes/velocities/efficiencies etc?
>>
>> My impression is, that here in Oregon, even if you have
>> a stream running thru the middle of your property, you're
>> not allowed to spit within 10 feet of it, much less divert it for power
>> generation.
>
> My aboveground swimming pool is the only water source.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Jim Rojas
basically simple.
interestinger? Really...how about more interesting...
By your endless questions, you did not read the minor detail that the
alternator rotor coils were replaced with Neodyium magnets...that should
have ended your question. The alternator requires no power to excite the
field. Thus power is produced at a much lower RPM. This would not be
true if I kept the coils in the rotors.
This is basic electronic guys.
Jim Rojas
Technical Manuals Online!
http://www.tech-man.com
8002 Cornwall Lane
Tampa, FL 33615-4604
813-884-6335
813-440-6653 Fax
Email: jro...@tech-man.com
AOL: rojas813
MSN: jimr...@hotmail.com
Yahoo: jimrojas
ICQ: 20116219
GoogleTalk: Roja...@gmail.com
Martin Riddle
<ongrid...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8073f42a-50f3-48a3...@googlegroups.com...
By try Cotek, they have 24v and 48v inverters MSW and sine.
Cheers
mike
> interestinger? Really...how about more interesting...
go straight for the technical argument. People who can't defend
the technical aspects attack something they can bitch about.
When you greet someone in late afternoon with, "good morning,"
you can learn a lot from their response. The nitpickers and the
"your wrong about everything you say" crowd will correct you.
The mellow "go with the flow" types that you'd like to hang out
with will just let it pass or smile. And there are lots
of interesting shades of gray. Their response might give some
insight into how they think and what interests them. Makes
it easier to "chat her up." ;-)
> By your endless questions, you did not read the minor detail that the
> alternator rotor coils were replaced with Neodyium magnets...that should
> have ended your question. The alternator requires no power to excite the
> field. Thus power is produced at a much lower RPM. This would not be
> true if I kept the coils in the rotors.
for good
numbers...if there were numbers...
> This is basic electronic guys.
>
While it's certainly easy to describe a situation where unavoidable
wasted energy can be economically recaptured, I don't think this is one
of them. Unavoidable is the key word in that sentence.
It's often more valuable to reduce the wasted energy than to reclaim it
by converting it through several different forms then back to the original.
If I made statements, you'd likely react negatively, waive your hands
around, talk generally about magnets and claim I'm wrong.
But I'd still not have learned anything.
If I ask questions, I give you the opportunity to describe the math
behind your innovation and I learn, not only that I was wrong, but
exactly how your system works and how I might apply that innovation
to my own projects. I don't have to guess about your implementation.
You don't have to take offense and tell me I'm wrong. It's a proper
technical discussion. I get educated.
I asked for a few numbers that are trivial to measure and should be
in your notebook already...right next to your theoretical calculations.
It's basic physics.
I wonder how much money you could make on a low back pressure pool
filter that paid for itself with reduced energy consumption in one
season?
Jim Rojas
I am not defensive...I just don't like to feed the trolls.
Jim Wilkins
news:6HDrs.9647$eZ7...@newsfe14.iad...
> ...
> 2 alternating 1.5HP 220V pool pumps drives the entire setup. They
> Jim Rojas
Is it correct to summarize this project as experiments to reclaim some
of the grid energy you expend to filter your pool water?
Your past explanations have seemed to imply that the installation is a
net Source of power rather than tests of how efficiently its
individual components can recapture energy that ultimately comes from
the grid in this case, but -could- be driven by natural flows if you
weren't in flat Florida.
jsw
amdx
> My electric bill use to be $250 a month on regular months, and $400 a
> month during the hot summer season in Florida. Forget buyback meters to
> sell back to the grid...a big waste of time and money. Be glad to reduce
> your bill. I now pay on average $60 a month.
year, that you use to use. Now you use $60 x 12 months or $720 dollars.
The difference is $2,730.
So you use $720 to create $2,730 worth of electricity.
Forget filtering a pool, I just want to create $2730 with $720.
Mikek
Jim Rojas
Jim Rojas
Technical Manuals Online!
http://www.tech-man.com
8002 Cornwall Lane
Tampa, FL 33615-4604
813-884-6335
813-440-6653 Fax
Email: jro...@tech-man.com
AOL: rojas813
MSN: jimr...@hotmail.com
Yahoo: jimrojas
ICQ: 20116219
GoogleTalk: Roja...@gmail.com
amdx
> amdx wrote:
>> On 11/22/2012 12:40 PM, Jim Rojas wrote:
>>
>>> My electric bill use to be $250 a month on regular months, and $400 a
>>> month during the hot summer season in Florida. Forget buyback meters to
>>> sell back to the grid...a big waste of time and money. Be glad to reduce
>>> your bill. I now pay on average $60 a month.
>>
>> Using 3 months at $400 and 9 months at $250 that equals $3,450 per
>> year, that you use to use. Now you use $60 x 12 months or $720 dollars.
>> The difference is $2,730.
>>
>> So you use $720 to create $2,730 worth of electricity.
>>
>> Forget filtering a pool, I just want to create $2730 with $720.
>>
>> Mikek
>>
>>
>>
>
> Las Vegas is a good place to start... :)
>
Mikek
mike
He never posted ANY results.
amdx
from $250 or more to an average $60. That's a result.
Mikek
Bob F
"free energy" posts.
mike
We have a vaguely described setup.
We have vaguely described numbers from the utility bill.
The "experiment" is undocumented and uncontrolled.
And the result is that it transcends conservation of energy.
That's a "result" worthy of a Nobel Prize, patents worth zillions
of <insert your favorite currency here> and at least 70 virgins.
Yet "endless questions" go unanswered.
You turn off everything in the house except the pool pump.
You watch the dial on the utility meter go around to calculate
power consumed.
You hook a hot-plate to the generator output and see how long
it takes to boil away a pint of water. A little math later
and you've real data that's easy to replicate experimentally for
your Nobel Prize submission.
You drive your water-powered-car down to the patent office
and file a patent.
The pool filter industry would explode overnight, so you'd want
to buy a lot of stock first.
It's not rocket surgery.
It's merely a new branch of physics.
Let's do this!!
I'll bring the hot-plate and the stopwatch and the patent
application and the 70 virgins. He's already got the water.
Jim Rojas
I install an Insteon Home Automation Controller that shuts down many of
the appliances and plug in transformers that normally draw power 24/7.
Replaced the old 120v sprinkler pump to 220v one. Replaced the timer and
installed an Insteon sprinkler controller that works along with the home
automation unit.
The Front & Side Porches were usually set dust to dawn. Now they shut
down at 2am. I use an outdoor motion to active it after hours for 15
minutes at a time.
Replaced the 40 gallon 220v electric hot water heater with a 220v
electric on demand unit and set at 100 degrees. This unit works
flawlessly, and has a digital readout. $249 at ACE Hardware. You do have
to upgrade to 6 gauge wiring and a 60 amp breaker.
Jim Rojas
I did not know I was required to post a energy chart verified by 3
independent certified energy consultants before I can post anything
here...I will strive to do better in my next lifetime... :)
In the meantime...chill out.
mike
And you dramatically decreased your electricity demand by other means.
Coulda led with that in a yard-art group instead of:
"My system uses running water to provide the DC power"
amdx
with $720? Nah, just trying to draw him out, and he came though with at
least 6 other changes.
Mikek
j
> You wanna nit-pick. OK, bring it.
> We have a vaguely described setup.
> We have vaguely described numbers from the utility bill.
> The "experiment" is undocumented and uncontrolled.
>
> And the result is that it transcends conservation of energy.
So what do you know about pumps? I know a little, enough to know that a
water pump with no load draws almost as power as one that is loaded.
I've measured my pond pumps and that is what mine do.
Water pumps are rated in flow and in head. It is the ability to deliver
head (ie pressure) that requires high power draw at even low demand.
Conversely, low head pumps draw little power.
So what we apparently have is a sand filter that could require quite a
bit of head pressure, hence a lot of power draw and an oversized pump.
Whatever excess head is not needed would normally be wasted. What the OP
has done is recover much of that. In an elaborate method that requires
daily tweaking, but it does work.
Now, I could argue that lower head pumps could have been used (with
their own series of tweaks), but doubtless there would be times they
would not work (sand filter clogging). I think the OP has optimized his
filter pumping in a convoluted way, but it does not void the laws of
physics.
Jeff
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
energy costs would be within 1 or 2% of the current amount.
mike
> <snip>
>>
>> You wanna nit-pick. OK, bring it.
>> We have a vaguely described setup.
>> We have vaguely described numbers from the utility bill.
>> The "experiment" is undocumented and uncontrolled.
>>
>> And the result is that it transcends conservation of energy.
>
> I'm inclined to take this at face value.
value", that statement has little communicative value.
> So what do you know about pumps?
Using some round numbers so as not to hurt anybody's brain.
$60/month will buy about 600kWH of energy (around here anyway).
Divide that by the 720 hours in a month. That gives 833W.
1.5hp represents just over a kilowatt. That leaves MINUS 200watts
or so for the rest of the domicile.
OK, so the motor really isn't running at maximum output. But it's
not 100% efficient. No matter what numbers you pick, the OP's
statements are PREPOSTEROUS.
I don't know whether there was any intent to deceive or just
wishful thinking. But the end result is the same.
After all the back-pedaling, we still have zero information
related to energy or homepower or inverters. We're left with
endless questions, three by my count, and considerable indignation.
Dontchajustlovetheinternet?
I know a little, enough to know that a
> water pump with no load draws almost as power as one that is loaded.
> I've measured my pond pumps and that is what mine do.
>
> Water pumps are rated in flow and in head. It is the ability to deliver
> head (ie pressure) that requires high power draw at even low demand.
> Conversely, low head pumps draw little power.
>
> So what we apparently have is a sand filter that could require quite a
> bit of head pressure, hence a lot of power draw and an oversized pump.
> Whatever excess head is not needed would normally be wasted. What the OP
> has done is recover much of that. In an elaborate method that requires
> daily tweaking, but it does work.
always less efficient than using the original electricity.
> Now, I could argue that lower head pumps could have been used (with
> their own series of tweaks), but doubtless there would be times they
> would not work (sand filter clogging). I think the OP has optimized his
> filter pumping in a convoluted way, but it does not void the laws of
> physics.
Flowing water represents energy. If you take energy out, for
electricity generation or any other purpose, you reduce the energy
content of the flowing water. The most common result is a
reduction in flow or pressure or both. If you're extracting energy
from a waterfall, you can argue "use it or lose it". If you have to
pay for head, that argument is impotent.
Jim Rojas
j
>> <snip>
>>>
>>> You wanna nit-pick. OK, bring it.
>>> We have a vaguely described setup.
>>> We have vaguely described numbers from the utility bill.
>>> The "experiment" is undocumented and uncontrolled.
>>>
>>> And the result is that it transcends conservation of energy.
>>
>> I'm inclined to take this at face value.
> Given that there's no definition of what you mean by "this" or "face
> value", that statement has little communicative value.
>>
>> So what do you know about pumps?
>
> Turns out that you don't have to know anything about pumps.
> Using some round numbers so as not to hurt anybody's brain.
> $60/month will buy about 600kWH of energy (around here anyway).
> Divide that by the 720 hours in a month. That gives 833W.
> 1.5hp represents just over a kilowatt. That leaves MINUS 200watts
> or so for the rest of the domicile.
recovering some energy (it's a huge pump he is using and I'm inclined to
believe there is a lot of left over energy). I can't see where this is
more than half. So I'd believe it if it was $60 off a $300 bill, but of
course, he is claiming far more.
I don't have a dog in this fight, and haven't read through the whole
thread. But I'm still inclined to cut him some slack. It's really no
crazier than the guy with a bicycle generator trying to save money.
What's the point in beating him up?
Jeff
mike
>
> This is the pump in question:
>
> http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_150884_150884
>
optimized to run at 5hp.
That's the first red flag for less than optimal efficiency.
Jim Rojas
mike
> mike wrote:
>> On 11/27/2012 6:52 PM, Jim Rojas wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> This is the pump in question:
>>>
>>> http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_150884_150884
>>>
>> If I read the page right, you're using a 1.5hp motor on a pump
>> optimized to run at 5hp.
>> That's the first red flag for less than optimal efficiency.
>>
>>
>
> No...read the thread from the beginning.
mike
>
> I don't have a dog in this fight, and haven't read through the whole
> thread. But I'm still inclined to cut him some slack. It's really no
> crazier than the guy with a bicycle generator trying to save money.
> What's the point in beating him up?
>
> Jeff
Once the debunkee realizes that he's going nowhere, he can divert
his money and energy to a hobby that he might enjoy.
And it discourages others from trying to replicate a failed premise,
thus saving them from the same fate.
A large percentage of what you read on the web is pure crap.
Stuff that sounds good if you don't look behind the curtain.
It gets buried in conjecture and effects not considered.
People just don't bother to run simple tests on their innovation
before declaring it as gospel and defending it to the death.
Much of it is pure scam. Some is pure failure to understand
basic principles. Just mention Stan Meyer and Tesla and accuse
the naysayers of whatever conspiracy you like.
I offer methods to test the hypothesis and prove it with simple
tools. If the debunkee can't be bothered, it's a scam.
If they do find a way to make a measurement, they either quit messing
with it or call a patent attorney. Either way THEY win.
You can't reason with an innovation based on wishful thinking,
but it doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
If this thread looks like it fits that model...
Aside:
I had a chance to meet an individual who had a fancy website
offering to sell his technology for a HHO car.
He had wild claims for improved mileage.
When questioned one-on-one, he finally realized I wasn't buying
the generalize BS he was feeding me, he disclosed that he'd made one
test run
and based the mileage calculations by filling up at one station,
driving 30 miles at constant speed on the freeway then filling
up again 0.7 gallons at a different station. Strike one.
Further questioning revealed that he had a ECU tweak chip
and had tweaked the mixture lean until the car stopped
running and backed up till it started again. Strike two.
He had no concept that tweaking the ECU was illegal. Strike 3.
Being the helpful person that I am, I offered to build him a
real-time digital readout of relative MPG so he could tweak it
in real time. He agreed.
I spent a week building it, but when it came time to test it,
he'd changed his mind. Guess he decided that real data would be
detrimental to his business plan. ;-)
If you can't be bothered to do some simple measurements that could
easily verify your innovation beyond a doubt, I put you in the same
category as the esteemed Andrea Rossi. You can decide for yourself
whether that's good company.
Are we having fun yet?
Jim Rojas
I admit I just posted a bunch of information...
I did manage to put an ammeter on to see what I was drawing before all
this. 13amps on one phase, 6 amps on the other. But this might have been
during the summer months. I don't recall.
Vaughn
> wishful thinking.
should be considered. This character has been around for years.
Vaughn
amdx
> mike wrote:
>> On 11/27/2012 7:48 PM, Jim Rojas wrote:
>>> mike wrote:
>>>> On 11/27/2012 6:52 PM, Jim Rojas wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is the pump in question:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_150884_150884
>>>>>
>>>> If I read the page right, you're using a 1.5hp motor on a pump
>>>> optimized to run at 5hp.
>>>> That's the first red flag for less than optimal efficiency.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> No...read the thread from the beginning.
>>
>> We can read it together:
>> "
>> My aboveground swimming pool is the only water source.
>>
>> 2 alternating 1.5HP 220V pool pumps drives the entire setup. They each
>> take turns every 4 hours.
>> "
>
> Keep reading...you are doing just fine.
>
> I admit I just posted a bunch of information...
>
> I did manage to put an ammeter on to see what I was drawing before all
> this. 13amps on one phase, 6 amps on the other. But this might have been
> during the summer months. I don't recall.
>
each leg? Or is this a system wide measurement.
Mikek
Jim Rojas
house was drawing at the time. I can do another reading and see what I
have now.
mike
If your load is not purely resistive, the power factor will be less than 1.
So, if you multiply the measured current by the nominal voltage you'll
get
something related to volt-amps which might be significantly greater than
actual watts. Then there are variations in the way amp meters respond to
non-sinusoidal loads.
The optimum thing is to monitor the thing that calculates your power bill.
If your utility meter has a rotating wheel or a simulated one on an LCD
display, you can time that and get the same number that your utility
will use to bill you. That's the power number you want.