Centennial vs Trojan Batteries
z
I'm thinking four t-105s or equiv.
Then I call a battery place and they say they've got the trojans for $129
or the centennial GC2200 for $80
http://www.centennialbattery.com/MtvPwr_SpclApp.htm
They spec out to be pretty similar, but I haven't been able to find many
reviews.
Are the trojans worth the extra $50 a pop??
thanks again for all the advice. This newsgroup is pretty top notch
-zachary
Windsun
in plate thickness.
..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..................................................................................................
"z" <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A4575BBE3A...@216.196.97.131...
z
news:13rbume...@corp.supernews.com:
> Depends on if you want 3 year batteries or 6 year batteries. Big
> difference in plate thickness.
Aha! See the battery guy said 'oh they're pretty much the same', and my
sceptical eye figured that was BS.
>
> .......................................................................
> ........................... Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity
bea...@gmail.com
> "Windsun" <wind...@wind-sun.com> wrote innews:13rbume...@corp.supernews.com:
Unless your golfing, waste of money either way.
z
news:195debd2-842e-41fb...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
> On Feb 16, 8:03 am, z <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote:
>> "Windsun" <wind...@wind-sun.com> wrote
>> innews:13rbume...@corp.supernews.com:
>>
>> > Depends on if you want 3 year batteries or 6 year batteries. Big
>> > difference in plate thickness.
>>
>> Aha! See the battery guy said 'oh they're pretty much the same', and
>> my sceptical eye figured that was BS.
>>
>>
>>
>> > ....................................................................
>> > ... ........................... Northern Arizona Wind & Sun -
>> > Electricity From The Sun Solar Discussion
>> > Forum:http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
>> > ....................................................................
>> > ... ...........................
>>
>> > "z" <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
>> >news:Xns9A4575BBE3A...@216.196.97.131...
>> >> So its time to buy new batteries.
>>
>> >> I'm thinking four t-105s or equiv.
>>
>> >> Then I call a battery place and they say they've got the trojans
>> >> for $129 or the centennial GC2200 for $80
>>
>> >>http://www.centennialbattery.com/MtvPwr_SpclApp.htm
>>
>> >> They spec out to be pretty similar, but I haven't been able to
>> >> find many reviews.
>>
>> >> Are the trojans worth the extra $50 a pop??
>>
>> >> thanks again for all the advice. This newsgroup is pretty top
>> >> notch
>>
>> >> -zachary
>
> Unless your golfing, waste of money either way.
>
what would you suggest?
bea...@gmail.com
Well if you are not running a golf cart what is the application for
these batteries?
If it is for a solar power system, a single series string of quality
2V cells of the correct Ah rating for the job.
z
news:456036a8-c557-42c3...@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> On Feb 16, 10:17 am, z <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote:
>> beal...@gmail.com wrote
>> innews:195debd2-842e-41fb...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.c
>> om:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Feb 16, 8:03 am, z <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote:
>> >> "Windsun" <wind...@wind-sun.com> wrote
>> >> innews:13rbume...@corp.supernews.com:
>>
>> >> > Depends on if you want 3 year batteries or 6 year batteries. Big
>> >> > difference in plate thickness.
>>
>> >> Aha! See the battery guy said 'oh they're pretty much the same',
>> >> and my sceptical eye figured that was BS.
>>
>> >> > .................................................................
>> >> > ... ... ........................... Northern Arizona Wind & Sun
>> >> > - Electricity From The Sun Solar Discussion
>> >> > Forum:http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
>> >> > .................................................................
>> >> > ... ... ...........................
>>
>> >> > "z" <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
>> >> >news:Xns9A4575BBE3A...@216.196.97.131...
>> >> >> So its time to buy new batteries.
>>
>> >> >> I'm thinking four t-105s or equiv.
>>
>> >> >> Then I call a battery place and they say they've got the
>> >> >> trojans for $129 or the centennial GC2200 for $80
>>
>> >> >>http://www.centennialbattery.com/MtvPwr_SpclApp.htm
>>
>> >> >> They spec out to be pretty similar, but I haven't been able to
>> >> >> find many reviews.
>>
>> >> >> Are the trojans worth the extra $50 a pop??
>>
>> >> >> thanks again for all the advice. This newsgroup is pretty top
>> >> >> notch
>>
>> >> >> -zachary
>>
>> > Unless your golfing, waste of money either way.
>>
>> what would you suggest?
>
> Well if you are not running a golf cart what is the application for
> these batteries?
>
> If it is for a solar power system, a single series string of quality
> 2V cells of the correct Ah rating for the job.
>
Do you have a favorite vender? The only deep cell batteries I can get
within driving distance are the six volt jobbers.
bea...@gmail.com
Well, yes I do have a favorite vendor, two in fact. One is the Rainbow
Power Company and the other is Choice Electric.
Of course neither of these is of any use to you if you are not in
Australia. Although they will both ship overseas.
The only time I pick up batteries is when they have been delivered to
a depot close to my location, having been delivered from interstate. I
could have them delivered to site, and have done so on many occasions
where it was to my advantage.
You have been offered the choice between batteries that will last 3
years or 6 years by a battery retailer.
You have to consider his position. He wants to make a sale.
My position is that I don't retail batteries.
There are batteries that can provide twenty years or more of service
life. You will not find them in a golf cart.
Windsun has sited the thickness of the plates as the reason for
difference in cost, this is true. My current set of batteries weigh in
at ~65 kg each. When I bought them they had an eight year warranty and
an expected life of 16 years. I full well expect them to last at least
twenty. They are well looked after, never left in a low state of
discharge and kept warm and clean.
My system was designed with five days of autonomy at 1.5 kWh/day. With
advances in lighting (LED Lights), more efficient computer and TV,
this has been increased to around 7 days.
$3000 for a set of batteries that, with proper care, can last in
excess of twenty years ($150/year) is pretty good value.
The longest life for a set of batteries I personally know of was 26
years. They were ten years old when bought secondhand from a telco and
used for a further sixteen years. Mind you they were treated like they
were royalty.
I suggest that you take a closer look at what the big boys use for
battery storage. You might also find the caddet (yes two d's) website
of interest.
The real point is, that if you have no interest in looking after a set
of batteries as required for the batteries best performance then buy
the T105s. If, OTOH, you are serious about what you are doing, buy a
good set of batteries.
I won't advise you as to a manufacture but suggest that you download
spec sheets for as many batteries as you can find wthin a thousand kM
of your site. Compare carefully, price is the worst criteria for
battery choice.
z
news:f7c572ee-f819-4173...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> On Feb 16, 12:04 pm, z <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote:
>> beal...@gmail.com wrote
>> innews:456036a8-c557-42c3...@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.c
>> om:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Feb 16, 10:17 am, z <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote:
>> >> beal...@gmail.com wrote
>> >> innews:195debd2-842e-41fb...@e25g2000prg.googlegroup
>> >> s.c om:
>>
>> >> > On Feb 16, 8:03 am, z <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote:
>> >> >> "Windsun" <wind...@wind-sun.com> wrote
>> >> >> innews:13rbume...@corp.supernews.com:
>>
>> >> >> > Depends on if you want 3 year batteries or 6 year batteries.
>> >> >> > Big difference in plate thickness.
>>
>> >> >> Aha! See the battery guy said 'oh they're pretty much the
>> >> >> same', and my sceptical eye figured that was BS.
>>
>> >> >> > ..............................................................
>> >> >> > ... ... ... ........................... Northern Arizona Wind
>> >> >> > & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Solar Discussion
>> >> >> > Forum:http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
>> >> >> > ..............................................................
>> >> >> > ... ... ... ...........................
thanks for the information. I'll do some more research. As much as I'd
love to do it 'right' i'm on a pretty serious budget so thats the bottom
line.
The 2v batteries i've seen just looking around on the web look like
they'd kick some ass, but i'd be impossible for me to buy enough to build
12 volts with the cash I have on hand.
But i'll keep digging
thanks again
Windsun
find in smaller amp-hour ratings suitable for small systems.
There are few, if any, long life batteries available anywhere unless you
start getting up into the 500 amp hour range.
..................................................................................................
<bea...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:f7c572ee-f819-4173-979b-
bea...@gmail.com
Hey, nearly everybody has been there.
>
> The 2v batteries i've seen just looking around on the web look like
> they'd kick some ass, but i'd be impossible for me to buy enough to build
> 12 volts with the cash I have on hand.
Yes, I know what you mean. You do what you can with the resources
available.
>
> But i'll keep digging
Single string series if you can will give best performance. You might
look for a battery that gives the correct Ah as a single series
string. Failing that you will end up with series parallel. If so,
keeping on top of the maint will give you the best life span for your
batteries. Pay no attention to Windsun. Many high quality batteries
are available in sub 500Ah range. The set that lasted for 26 years was
made up of 6 - 200Ah 2Vcells.
Good luck with your venture.
>
> thanks again
Neon John
>"Windsun" <win...@wind-sun.com> wrote in
>news:13rbume...@corp.supernews.com:
>
>> Depends on if you want 3 year batteries or 6 year batteries. Big
>> difference in plate thickness.
>
>Aha! See the battery guy said 'oh they're pretty much the same', and my
>sceptical eye figured that was BS.
I think a bit of BS may be wafting off that advice too. Something tells me that he's
not had the two brands sitting side by side to compare. In any event, the "3 years
vs 6 years" stuff is pure BS since battery life is measured in cycles and not
calendar days.
There is a very easy way to do a first order comparison of the two. Weight. Or more
exactly, watt-hours per pound.
Thicker plates mean less active material per unit volume and more inactive lead. That
means that the battery is heavier for the same storage capacity and thus the
watt-hours per pound is lower. Weight doesn't matter for a stationary application so
this is OK.
I don't have any experience with "brand x" but I do with Trojan. Hard to go wrong
there. First thing I'd do is shop around for better pricing. Be aware, however,
that the ChiComs have driven the price of lead up just like they have all other
metals in the last year. I used to know that I could get a T106 for a bit under
$100. Now I'm not sure.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted!
Neon John
>>
>> If it is for a solar power system, a single series string of quality
>> 2V cells of the correct Ah rating for the job.
>>
>
>Do you have a favorite vender? The only deep cell batteries I can get
>within driving distance are the six volt jobbers.
This advice would have you spending as much as $1000 for gross overkill, given what
you're doing. For your application, some cart batteries are just fine.
Best advice I can give is to put this lunatic in your kill filter and ignore him.
Along with Sheldon, he's one of the group's two idiots that various villages have
lost.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
binary and those who don't.
bea...@gmail.com
> On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:04:11 -0600, z <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote:
>
> >> If it is for a solar power system, a single series string of quality
> >> 2V cells of the correct Ah rating for the job.
>
> >Do you have a favorite vender? The only deep cell batteries I can get
> >within driving distance are the six volt jobbers.
>
> This advice would have you spending as much as $1000 for gross overkill, given what
> you're doing. For your application, some cart batteries are just fine.
>
> Best advice I can give is to put this lunatic in your kill filter and ignore him.
> Along with Sheldon, he's one of the group's two idiots that various villages have
> lost.
>
> John
> --
> John De Armond
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> binary and those who don't.
What a joke. Tell us John, what is the OP doing. He hasn't said yet,
other than using batteries.
Or is it that you are telling him what he is doing.
Best advice for battery stoarge is a single series string of quality
2V cells of the correct Ah rating for the job.
In the long run this saves money and a lot of pissing about with
problems you can do without.
Ron Rosenfeld
Once consideration would be the planned use, and your storage requirements.
But also, when I go to the site you specified above, I do not find, for the
Centennial batteries, specifications on which to make a decision. In
particular, they don't spec a 20 hr rate, or even the weight of the
battery.
In particular, for a deep-cycle application, you would want to know the
battery capacity at your withdrawal rate.
Maximum amp-hr capacity, which Centennial does spec, is meaningless without
knowing the rate of withdrawal. Batteries have a higher capacity at lower
rates of withdrawal.
--ron
Ulysses
<bea...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e124192b-6814-4d3f...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 16, 5:03 pm, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:04:11 -0600, z <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> If it is for a solar power system, a single series string of quality
> > >> 2V cells of the correct Ah rating for the job.
> >
> > >Do you have a favorite vender? The only deep cell batteries I can get
> > >within driving distance are the six volt jobbers.
> >
> > This advice would have you spending as much as $1000 for gross overkill,
given what
> > you're doing. For your application, some cart batteries are just fine.
> >
> > Best advice I can give is to put this lunatic in your kill filter and
ignore him.
> > Along with Sheldon, he's one of the group's two idiots that various
villages have
> > lost.
> >
> > John
> > --
> > John De Armond
> > See my website for my current email
addresshttp://www.neon-john.comhttp://www.johndearmond.com<-- best little
blog on the net!
> > Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> > binary and those who don't.
>
> What a joke. Tell us John, what is the OP doing. He hasn't said yet,
> other than using batteries.
z has been telling us what he's doing for a long time. He's building a
micro-hydro charger.
z: I have had good luck with some generic golf-cart batteries. I had four
in series-parallel connected to my travel trailer for about four years.
They were discharged to around 60% every day and charged back to 100% every
night. They were never equalized or desulfated. Now that they are no
longer being used on the trailer, and I have a better battery charger, I
have desulfated them and equalized them several times and they are still
very good. I did keep them clean and kept the water level where it should
be. These particular batteries have no name on them whatsoever. Before
that I had two Interstate golf cart batteries and they did not hold up so
well but I was using a crappy charger (Schumaker--should stick to making
shoes) from an auto parts store. It was "automatic" and shut down when the
batteries were only about 75-80% charged. This was hard on the batteries so
I can't say for sure about the quality of Interstate but my daughter had one
in her Explorer and it had problems too.
Currently I have twentyfour Crown 220 Ah six volt batteries (golf cart) in
series-parallel connected to my OB inverters. They are about one year old
now and seem to be AOK. Someday I'll look into the more expensive,
sophisticated storage batteries but for now I kinda like having something
does not require a fork lift to move.
At this point in my life I think I have a pretty good understanding about
how to care for my batteries so next time I might not be so reluctant to
spend the extra money. The worst thing seems to be undercharging and I have
found that this is a fairly common error that many new offgridders make.
For what you are doing, if it was me, I'd go with the cheaper ones and once
you get everything all figured out then consider the more expensive battery
system. Unless the cheaper ones end up being just fine.
For me, when buying batteries, the bottom line is: is it really, really
heavy? If so I buy it. ;-) Almost all batteries have a pretty good
warranty so if one craps out quickly they will usually replace it.
bea...@gmail.com
> <beal...@gmail.com> wrote in message
There is a lot of nonsense in this post, is it all quote from Z or is
some of it of it from you, Ulysses.
bea...@gmail.com
This can be answered.
Yes he is building a micro hydro charger. Of course this is not the
use for the batteries, it is a charging source for the batteries.
The question is, what is the use of the batteries? What do they in
fact power?
Series parallel batteries are now, and have ever only been, the second
best choice for a battery storage system.
Yes, series parallel banks are used, but, this does not magically make
them best practice.
The three most common reasons for using series parallel battery banks
are:
1) Space restrictions.
2) Financial constraints.
3) Ignorance.
If you were being honest you would admit that the micro hydro
generator is not even connected to the batteries in question, nor is
it, at this time, able to provide the energy required to charge the
batteries.
z
news:ba5a0ac5-a9e2-4e02...@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
Probably the 2 and 3 are the controlling issues here.
Now as far as the use, now I live on a single J158G Trojan so if I can
live on that, four six volt t-106's or equiv would be a huge improvement.
The micro hydro will be used to charge those batteries and i'll also use
a gasoline generator as needed to top them up along with some solar.
The original post was really just asking if anyone had experience with
Centennial GC2200 batteries which on paper look pretty similar to the
Trojans but are significantly cheaper.
Didn't mean to start any damn trouble!
bea...@gmail.com
No trouble at all. You have been honest with your posts and you will
succeed with the micro hydro. You face your problems and work out a
way to solve them.
I lived for several years on a battery bank that was series parallel.
It was what I could afford, and yes, ignorance was a factor as well.
Personally I would choose two L16Hs over four T105s. Which is a single
series battery bank over a series parallel bank for much the same Ah.
Some people only believe what makes them feel good. Unfortunately,
what makes them feel good is often incorrect. This is the case with
series parallel batteries. Rather than admit that they either were too
cheap, too poor or just too ignorant, these people assuage their
feelings of inadequacy by declaring that series parallel is the
industry standard, while failing to point out that the industry in
question is the recreational vehicle industry and not home power.
Your doing well in the reality stakes. Keep us posted as to the micro
hydro progress.
z
news:a9bc62e4-a129-4598...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com:
Yes that would be a pretty nice setup with the l16h's. Two of those are
about 600 dollars at my dealer. Be a bitch to get them to where they are
going but I can manage.
There is an equiv (on paper) battery from Centennial so i've left a
message with that dealer to see how much they are and how much they
weigh.
The reality is if I go for the centennial type I could save enough to buy
a much nicer inverter than I have now. The four six volt centennials
come to about $320, compared to upwards of $600 for the trojans.
If they only last 3 years I can probably afford to replace them in the
future kinda thing.
So now i'm thinking if the l16 centennials are reasonable I might just
get two of those and work on generating more juice and then upgrade the
battery situation in a few years -- once I can charge them all reliably
without cheating with a generator.
>
> Some people only believe what makes them feel good. Unfortunately,
> what makes them feel good is often incorrect. This is the case with
> series parallel batteries. Rather than admit that they either were too
> cheap, too poor or just too ignorant, these people assuage their
> feelings of inadequacy by declaring that series parallel is the
> industry standard, while failing to point out that the industry in
> question is the recreational vehicle industry and not home power.
Well its like cars. I also work on vintage BMWs and everyone has their
way of doing things and big opinions. My bottom line is, does it work?
Do you like it? Does it corner like a mofo?
If it does all those things then you are good.
>
> Your doing well in the reality stakes. Keep us posted as to the micro
> hydro progress.
cheers.
I'll have an ammeter hooked up by the end of the week hopefully. At this
rate i'll have the hydro system ready and done just when summer starts
and all that extra water goes away -- then it will have to sit there for
three months :)
wmbjk...@citlink.net
>I'll do some more research. As much as I'd
>love to do it 'right' i'm on a pretty serious budget so thats the bottom
>line.
>
>The 2v batteries i've seen just looking around on the web look like
>they'd kick some ass, but i'd be impossible for me to buy enough to build
>12 volts with the cash I have on hand.
Here's a good battery FAQ
http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm I see that the
author has already responded personally to some of your questions.
Bottom line: one can reasonably compare batteries by cost per lifetime
amp-hour. Making the best choice depends on your application, shipping
costs, tolerance or desire for less/more frequent replacement and
maintenance, confidence in your ability to prevent chronic
undercharging, future expansion considerations, etc. Since many owners
of new setups can't be sure about some of those questions, the
low-cost option of T105s is a popular and successful choice. No matter
which battery you choose, if your budget allows then I'd recommend
adding a proper battery monitor such as
http://store.solar-electric.com/e-meter.html . Here's a link to the
user's manual http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/72/docserve.asp.
Wayne
z
news:hsuer3tsi0t9ljd2s...@4ax.com:
> On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:28:36 -0600, z <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote:
>
>>I'll do some more research. As much as I'd
>>love to do it 'right' i'm on a pretty serious budget so thats the
>>bottom line.
>>
>>The 2v batteries i've seen just looking around on the web look like
>>they'd kick some ass, but i'd be impossible for me to buy enough to
>>build 12 volts with the cash I have on hand.
>
> Here's a good battery FAQ
> http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm I see that the
> author has already responded personally to some of your questions.
yeah I've read that a few times. Quality advice there
> Bottom line: one can reasonably compare batteries by cost per lifetime
> amp-hour. Making the best choice depends on your application, shipping
> costs, tolerance or desire for less/more frequent replacement and
> maintenance, confidence in your ability to prevent chronic
> undercharging, future expansion considerations, etc. Since many owners
> of new setups can't be sure about some of those questions, the
> low-cost option of T105s is a popular and successful choice. No matter
> which battery you choose, if your budget allows then I'd recommend
> adding a proper battery monitor such as
> http://store.solar-electric.com/e-meter.html . Here's a link to the
> user's manual http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/72/docserve.asp.
I think the same function can be had via the xantrex c series charge
controller LCD monitor. I have a c35 that does equalization and other
nifty functions, and according to the lit the LCD display keeps track of
a number of charge/usage variables .. Thats one on the list of things to
get here pretty soon.
SO im thinking that LCD option on the charge controller should do those
same functions.. unless I'm totally out to lunch :)
>
> Wayne
bea...@gmail.com
gap. Start a battery account, by the time the cheapies have had the
dick you are well on you're way to a bigger and better bank.
>
>
> > Some people only believe what makes them feel good. Unfortunately,
> > what makes them feel good is often incorrect. This is the case with
> > series parallel batteries. Rather than admit that they either were too
> > cheap, too poor or just too ignorant, these people assuage their
> > feelings of inadequacy by declaring that series parallel is the
> > industry standard, while failing to point out that the industry in
> > question is the recreational vehicle industry and not home power.
>
> Well its like cars. I also work on vintage BMWs and everyone has their
> way of doing things and big opinions. My bottom line is, does it work?
> Do you like it? Does it corner like a mofo?
>
> If it does all those things then you are good.
Yeah me and my bikes. The SR500 will be back on the road again soon.
>
>
>
> > Your doing well in the reality stakes. Keep us posted as to the micro
> > hydro progress.
>
> cheers.
>
> I'll have an ammeter hooked up by the end of the week hopefully. At this
> rate i'll have the hydro system ready and done just when summer starts
> and all that extra water goes away -- then it will have to sit there for
> three months :)
You should have it well and truly sorted by then. Have fun.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
>> No matter
>> which battery you choose, if your budget allows then I'd recommend
>> adding a proper battery monitor such as
>> http://store.solar-electric.com/e-meter.html . Here's a link to the
>> user's manual http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/72/docserve.asp.
>
>I think the same function can be had via the xantrex c series charge
>controller LCD monitor. I have a c35 that does equalization and other
>nifty functions, and according to the lit the LCD display keeps track of
>a number of charge/usage variables .. Thats one on the list of things to
>get here pretty soon.
>
>
>SO im thinking that LCD option on the charge controller should do those
>same functions.. unless I'm totally out to lunch :)
A proper battery monitor uses a shunt between the batteries and
everything else, which allows accounting for all current in and out.
Any charge controller's data capability is limited to the loads
connected to it alone. For example, in most cases inverters are
connected directly to the battery, so the charge controller has no way
to see that power consumption. Even if all your loads are connected to
the C35, its metering and calculation functionality is extremely
limited compared to a Link 10. On the other hand, a charge controller
can break out the contribution of the source it's controlling, which
is nice, especially if you have multiple sources. But I'd consider the
battery monitor mandatory and the charging data optional. Two common
scenarios with new setups - operator underutilizes the system because
he's afraid of using too much, and operator is living with chronic
undercharge that he has no practical way of recognizing, and therefore
fails to make use of his backup source. A battery monitor will go a
long way to preventing both problems.
Wayne
z
news:mhegr3ls2kfc97vlu...@4ax.com:
I see. thats good information. I'll have to add that to my list of
stuff to get -- but after I get the whole system setup right.
Once I'm charging the new set of batteries and have transitioned to that
power system from the old one i'll want to have a better idea of whats
going on with the batteries.
But till then its all about making the power and storing the power :)
thanks Wayne
clareatsnyder.on.ca
wrote:
The problem, particularly in series parallel strings, is if one goes
bad, replacing it can jeopordize the rest. They NEED to be well
balanced to work well and live long.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
bea...@gmail.com
> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 21:30:02 -0600, z <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote:
> >news:hsuer3tsi0t9ljd2s...@4ax.com:
What we have here is a fine example of someone who likes to talk the
talk, but, is unable to walk the walk. This post shows a person who is
able to gather information from other peoples websites and post it as
his own.
>
> A proper battery monitor uses a shunt between the batteries and
> everything else, which allows accounting for all current in and out.
> Any charge controller's data capability is limited to the loads
> connected to it alone. For example, in most cases inverters are
> connected directly to the battery, so the charge controller has no way
> to see that power consumption. Even if all your loads are connected to
> the C35, its metering and calculation functionality is extremely
> limited compared to a Link 10. On the other hand, a charge controller
> can break out the contribution of the source it's controlling, which
> is nice, especially if you have multiple sources. But I'd consider the
> battery monitor mandatory and the charging data optional. Two common
> scenarios with new setups - operator underutilizes the system because
> he's afraid of using too much, and operator is living with chronic
> undercharge that he has no practical way of recognizing, and therefore
> fails to make use of his backup source. A battery monitor will go a
> long way to preventing both problems.
He has no knowledge of his own on this subject. If he did he would not
have spent the last ten years running away from questions about his
systems parameters.
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>The problem, particularly in series parallel strings, is if one goes
>bad, replacing it can jeopordize the rest. They NEED to be well
>balanced to work well and live long.
How well-balanced? How can we measure that?
Series resistance? Self-discharge rate?
Numbers, numbers, numbers...
Nick
clareatsnyder.on.ca
That's the rub. 4 batteries from the same batch, particularly with
sequential serial numbers are a pretty good bet. 3 batteries a year
old and one brand new one are a poor bet. Generally the rule of thumb
is all batteries in the parallel pack should be replaced together.
One way to salvage that extra battery is to by 3 instead of 2 if it is
only "2 wide" and add to your capacity by going "3 wide" putting the 3
"matched" batteries together.
I suppose testing with a trans-conductance tester would give you SOME
numbers to compare. (capacity)
sylvan butler
><clarence at snyder dot on dot ca> wrote:
>>The problem, particularly in series parallel strings, is if one goes
>>bad, replacing it can jeopordize the rest. They NEED to be well
>>balanced to work well and live long.
>
> How well-balanced? How can we measure that?
> Series resistance? Self-discharge rate?
off the top of my head...
* I-V curves during charge and discharge (they'll be different) which
is a way to derive internal resistance, but internal resistance
is never constant, hence the curves.
* charge acceptance (applied voltage and current resulting in how much
charge in the cell) which is implied by the I-V curves but not defined
since absorption time at full voltage can vary
* Ah capacity is not terribly critical if the other parameters were to
match, but in practice they won't match if Ah doesn't match
It's actually a lot more complex than matching transistors for an
amplifier, so typically we punt. In practice cells are never perfectly
matched, so periodic equalization charges are necessary to compensate.
The greater the mismatch, the more frequently equalization is needed,
and equalization is tough on batts.
sdb
--
What's seen on your screen? http://PcScreenWatch.com
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com
z
news:Xns9A4575BBE3A...@216.196.97.131:
> So its time to buy new batteries.
>
> I'm thinking four t-105s or equiv.
>
> Then I call a battery place and they say they've got the trojans for
> $129 or the centennial GC2200 for $80
>
> http://www.centennialbattery.com/MtvPwr_SpclApp.htm
>
> They spec out to be pretty similar, but I haven't been able to find
> many reviews.
>
> Are the trojans worth the extra $50 a pop??
>
> thanks again for all the advice. This newsgroup is pretty top notch
>
> -zachary
Well I decided to try the l-16 battery from Centennial. Two of those
clock in at $240 each and weigh 2 lbs less than the equiv Trojan and have
somewhat similar AH
If they only last a few years I can deal with that. The trick now is
building a system that can charge them reliably. Once I can charge a
bigger bank of batteries I can always upgrad at that point.
Thanks again for all the help. In a few years maybe I'll have enough
experience with this stuff to help some other newbie
-zachary
bea...@gmail.com
> z <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote innews:Xns9A4575BBE3A...@216.196.97.131:
Okay, what capability for charging do you have at the moment?
Ah capacity of battery?
Very broad ball park. Daily load 1000Wh - battery capacity approx
400Ah - 4.5PSH(Peak Sun Hours)/day - 2 x 80 watt panels.
Actual real life operating figures rely on an actual real life energy
audit.
bea...@gmail.com
And if you require 3 days of use with no sun then you will need min 5
panels
bea...@gmail.com
IF you want a Sizing Spreadsheet (XL) it can be downloaded here:
http://www.mediamax.com/bullamakanka/Hosted/SystemSizing.xls
bea...@gmail.com
This should be 5 X 80 Watt panels. Sorry for my bad typing skills.
z
news:22e707d4-118a-4947...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com:
> On Feb 19, 6:22 am, z <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote:
>> z <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote
>> innews:Xns9A4575BBE3A...@216.196.97.131:
>>
>>
>>
>> > So its time to buy new batteries.
>>
>> > I'm thinking four t-105s or equiv.
>>
>> > Then I call a battery place and they say they've got the trojans
>> > for $129 or the centennial GC2200 for $80
>>
>> >http://www.centennialbattery.com/MtvPwr_SpclApp.htm
>>
>> > They spec out to be pretty similar, but I haven't been able to find
>> > many reviews.
>>
>> > Are the trojans worth the extra $50 a pop??
>>
>> > thanks again for all the advice. This newsgroup is pretty top
>> > notch
>>
>> > -zachary
>>
>> Well I decided to try the l-16 battery from Centennial. Two of those
>> clock in at $240 each and weigh 2 lbs less than the equiv Trojan and
>> have somewhat similar AH
>>
>> If they only last a few years I can deal with that. The trick now is
>> building a system that can charge them reliably. Once I can charge a
>> bigger bank of batteries I can always upgrad at that point.
>>
>> Thanks again for all the help. In a few years maybe I'll have enough
>> experience with this stuff to help some other newbie
>>
>> -zachary
>
> Okay, what capability for charging do you have at the moment?
>
Well that is the big question. I have an unknown ability to charge with
hydro-electric (ammeter still isn't here) and I've got an eu2000i (2
actually) and 120 watts of solar to use.
> Ah capacity of battery?
Right now its pathetic -- 160@20
>
> Very broad ball park. Daily load 1000Wh - battery capacity approx
> 400Ah - 4.5PSH(Peak Sun Hours)/day - 2 x 80 watt panels.
>
> Actual real life operating figures rely on an actual real life energy
> audit.
My house runs on less than 1000 watts, and when I need to use something
greater I fire up a gen. LIke for the shop vac or power tools.
So like I said, if I can live on what I have now, this new solution
should be much nicer. For now its all about infrastructure -- wiring,
building the capacity to charge, and learning all this stuff. Those
batteries will do that job.
So the optimal solution is to spend about 10G's and live like a king, but
until then i'll keep on keeping on :)
bea...@gmail.com
When you get the hydro going its 24/7 charging and will require less
battery than solar when all is said and done. But you have indicated a
short fall for several months a year with water supply. This will of
course mean more panels or gen time. Fuel prices will probable be the
deciding factor in the end, unless you can secure some water storage.
>
> > Very broad ball park. Daily load 1000Wh - battery capacity approx
> > 400Ah - 4.5PSH(Peak Sun Hours)/day - 2 x 80 watt panels.
I'm sorry but that "2" should in fact be a "5".
>
> > Actual real life operating figures rely on an actual real life energy
> > audit.
>
> My house runs on less than 1000 watts, and when I need to use something
> greater I fire up a gen. LIke for the shop vac or power tools.
You, me and thousands of others. Still it is worth the time to do an
energy audit. I run a spreadsheet that I update when I change things.
This is tested against data logging. Great way to keep an eye on whats
going on with the system. Spots problems well before they are
problems.
>
> So like I said, if I can live on what I have now, this new solution
> should be much nicer. For now its all about infrastructure -- wiring,
> building the capacity to charge, and learning all this stuff. Those
> batteries will do that job.
What are you using for lighting? I'm running a mix of LED, halogen,
dichroic and fluro. Added around 20 lamps and reduced my energy use.
>
> So the optimal solution is to spend about 10G's and live like a king, but
> until then i'll keep on keeping on :)
Yep, good way to do it.
nick hull
sylvan butler <ZsdbUse1+...@Zbigfoot.Zcom.invalid> wrote:
What about having separate parallel strings with separate chargers for
each string? Each string would have to have a diode to keep it
isolated, granted that loses 1/2 volt.
Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
clareatsnyder.on.ca
>>
>> Okay, what capability for charging do you have at the moment?
>>
>> Ah capacity of battery?
>>
>> Very broad ball park. Daily load 1000Wh - battery capacity approx
>> 400Ah - 4.5PSH(Peak Sun Hours)/day - 2 x 80 watt panels.
>>
>> Actual real life operating figures rely on an actual real life energy
>> audit.
>
>And if you require 3 days of use with no sun then you will need min 5
>panels
Except I thought the OP said MICRO HYDRO, not solar.
bea...@gmail.com
Well Clare, I have no idea what you said, but, zachary said;
"Well that is the big question. I have an unknown ability to charge
with
hydro-electric (ammeter still isn't here) and I've got an eu2000i (2
actually) and 120 watts of solar to use."
And I also said;
"When you get the hydro going its 24/7 charging and will require less
battery than solar when all is said and done. But you have indicated a
short fall for several months a year with water supply. This will of
course mean more panels or gen time. Fuel prices will probable be the
deciding factor in the end, unless you can secure some water storage.
But then the question is why are you trying to make it look like your
post is from zachary.
sylvan butler
> What about having separate parallel strings with separate chargers for
> each string? Each string would have to have a diode to keep it
> isolated, granted that loses 1/2 volt.
That would probably work, assuming you have fully automatic chargers
that can keep up with load, and you can work around the diode isolation.
I'd hate to think of the losses thru such a diode when I'm pulling ca.
200amps out of my batts...
Sorobon
same plate thickness
"Windsun" <win...@wind-sun.com> wrote in message
news:13rbume...@corp.supernews.com...
> Depends on if you want 3 year batteries or 6 year batteries. Big
> difference in plate thickness.
>
> ..................................................................................................
> Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun
> Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
> ..................................................................................................
>
> "z" <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9A4575BBE3A...@216.196.97.131...
Balanced View
>
>>> reviews.
>>>
>>> Are the trojans worth the extra $50 a pop??
>>>
>>> thanks again for all the advice. This newsgroup is pretty top notch
>>>
>>> -zachary
>>>
>
>
>
Man, those trojans have got awful expensive. $50.00? I think I'll stick
to the cheaper rubbers ;~))))