About how much electricity does an oil furnace use

[Jim]

My daughter moved to Alaska a few years ago, and they recently
moved into a small house belonging to a friend who is now
living in Hawaii. The house had been vacant for some time,
and they worked a deal with the owner (a good friend) to keep
the place up and do repairs, etc. They got the oil furnace
working, but since the cost of fuel oil is so expensive they
are now using two electric heaters which keep the place warm
as long as outside temps are above 20 degrees F.

My concern is that if they lose electricity, which is not
uncommon on their island, they will lose not only their
electric heaters but the oil furnace too.

I'm wondering what size generator they would need to keep the
oil furnace working, and maybe a few lights, fridge, freezer,
and a few appliances. Would there be a label on the furnace
that specifies the power needed to run it?

Any ideas how much juice a small oil furnace uses? We live in
the deep South and we use natural gas for heat and for running
the generator.

[Jim Rojas]

I would go with a 3 to 5KW unit.

Jim Rojas

[danny burstein]

In <ogr7c8hopsn2cpp8b...@4ax.com> Jim <nos...@nospam.com> writes:
>the place up and do repairs, etc. They got the oil furnace
>working, but since the cost of fuel oil is so expensive they
>are now using two electric heaters which keep the place warm
>as long as outside temps are above 20 degrees F.

surpsing that electrcicity is cheaper than oil heat, unless
they're _just_ keeping a very small portion of the house
heated by them.

>I'm wondering what size generator they would need to keep the
>oil furnace working, and maybe a few lights, fridge, freezer,
>and a few appliances. Would there be a label on the furnace
>that specifies the power needed to run it?

Just checking first. When you use the term "furnace" are
you referring to a unit that heats air up and then blows
it around the house? (That's the technical term definition,
but people often mix and match it with "boiler", which,
itself, has multiple meanings).



--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

[NotMe]

"Jim" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ogr7c8hopsn2cpp8b...@4ax.com...

Look into a Monitor heater (comes in several different fuel models) does
require 120 VAC but that can come from a low power inverter and golf cart
batteries.

Friend used such a set up at his place in Ash NC and was able to run heat
for a week or more when the power failed. Eventually hooked up a solar
panel and a small wind generator and was good forever.

[Ron Rosenfeld]

There's no real way to tell without either contacting the mfg (which frequently does not work) or measuring the consumption for a few days. Older units used a lot more than modern units. Labels on the machines will not tell you what you need to know. The labels generally indicate what size line should be connected to the unit to meet code requirements, and this is often significantly in excess of what the unit might require. Furthermore, with regard to the refrigerator, although there might be a sticker indicating the annual consumption in kWh, this will not tell you what the maximum draw might be when it starts up. You might also need to consider a well pump, depending on their source of water.

However, the electric heaters ratings should be useful in determining their draw, but from what you write, they are not planning to power those during an outage.

The generator needs to be able to run all the critical appliances, and also handle any startup surge, which can be significant with an older refrigerator, and/or a well pump. But you don't want to oversize it, as that would be wasteful not only in initial cost, but also in operating costs (less efficient at low outputs).

It is likely that a 5kW generator would be sufficient for oil furnace, fridge, freezer and some lights, unless there is a large well pump with a high starting surge, or if there are other items not mentioned which need to be considered. When you mention "a few appliances", this again adds uncertainty to the recommendation.

Fuel is also a consideration. Gasoline is hard to store for any length of time, and may not be available during a widespread power outage. Propane is a good source, especially if it is used for other purposes. Diesel is also OK, but may be impractical for a small genset.

In one of our homes, which uses propane for heat, cooking, and dryer, and also compact flourescents for lighting and also has a well-pump, I don't think we've ever drawn as much as 5kW, and it is usually much less. In another home, which has an oil furnace, "normal" lighting, and electric cooktop and ovens, we can run everything on a 15kW generator, except that we cannot have both ovens running if we are using more than one cooktop burner.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Jim" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ogr7c8hopsn2cpp8b...@4ax.com...

> My daughter moved to Alaska a few years ago, and they recently
> moved into a small house belonging to a friend who is now

> living in Hawaii. ...

>
> I'm wondering what size generator they would need to keep the
> oil furnace working, and maybe a few lights, fridge, freezer,
> and a few appliances. Would there be a label on the furnace
> that specifies the power needed to run it?
>
> Any ideas how much juice a small oil furnace uses? We live in
> the deep South and we use natural gas for heat and for running
> the generator.

For comparison a 3000W (3750 peak) generator is just barely able to
start the motor on my washing machine, which draws 800W or less in
use. The starting surge is over 25 Amps, even with the motor pushed in
to loosen the drive belt. I think they would have to borrow and try
gennys, and switch on all the loads sequentially at start-up. Do they
know what is on each circuit? What do the neighbors use?

[amdx]

It would be ideal to run the generator on the same fuel you burn to heat
the home.
Mikek

[j]

On 12/8/2012 9:01 PM, Jim wrote:
> My daughter moved to Alaska a few years ago, and they recently
> moved into a small house belonging to a friend who is now
> living in Hawaii. The house had been vacant for some time,
> and they worked a deal with the owner (a good friend) to keep
> the place up and do repairs, etc. They got the oil furnace
> working, but since the cost of fuel oil is so expensive they
> are now using two electric heaters which keep the place warm
> as long as outside temps are above 20 degrees F.

Electricity is usually the most expensive, but electric is great for
spot heating.

>
> My concern is that if they lose electricity, which is not
> uncommon on their island, they will lose not only their
> electric heaters but the oil furnace too.

This forced air? Then it is the same as it would be if it was gas.

>
> I'm wondering what size generator they would need to keep the
> oil furnace working, and maybe a few lights, fridge, freezer,
> and a few appliances. Would there be a label on the furnace
> that specifies the power needed to run it?

3-5kW sound about right. You need capacity for motor start surges.

Keeping and getting the gas to run this, should be looked in to. Better
would be a diesel that could run off the fuel oil.

My idea of emergency heat in Alaska is a wood stove, and emergency
refrigeration would be outside.

Catalytic propane heaters are cheap, and even the smallest is more BTUs
than an electric space heater (5K BTU). Kerosene might be an option.

http://www.toyotomi.jp/english/products/kerosene_h/double.html

I guess living in Alaska has grown soft.

Jeff

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 08:17:35 -0600, amdx <am...@knologynotthis.net> wrote:

>It would be ideal to run the generator on the same fuel you burn to heat
>the home.
> Mikek

All other things being equal, I would agree. But he's using oil and electricity to heat his house, and the generator is being used to backup only essential circuits. A generator that can run on home heating oil may be overkill for what he needs. If they have prolonged outages, my recommendation would be a propane fueled, water cooled, 1800 rpm generator with some kind of automatic weekly exerciser, and, preferably, a good ATS. But without knowing more of the specifics, and the budget, I find it really hard to make an intelligent recommendation.

[Jim Wilkins]

"j" <mun...@att.net> wrote in message
news:ka291s$vms$1...@news.albasani.net...

>
> My idea of emergency heat in Alaska is a wood stove, and emergency
> refrigeration would be outside.

Wood is my main heat source in NH, and there is a big kettle of stew
outside in the car, safe from animals.

[Pete C.]

5KW will do. Find and adapt a construction light tower diesel genset and
you can run off the oil tank for the furnace. More importantly though
get some real numbers on what they are spending on electricity since
unless they are heating only a room or two, the oil furnace is likely
much more economical to operate. Too many people just don't do the math
to figure out the daily fuel consumption and it's cost vs. their little
electric heaters that are costing them a fortune.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Jim:

>I'm wondering what size generator they would need to keep the
>oil furnace working, and maybe a few lights, fridge, freezer,
>and a few appliances. Would there be a label on the furnace
>that specifies the power needed to run it?
>
>Any ideas how much juice a small oil furnace uses? We live in
>the deep South and we use natural gas for heat and for running
>the generator.

How about buying a "Kill-A-Watt" electric meter for them:
http://tinyurl.com/bhs96qs ?

Then they could get some actual numbers.

With luck, I'll never set foot in anyplace as cold as Alaska.

But if I ever do I'd want some non-technological backup in
addition to a generator. Whether it's a two-wall tent like the
Siberian natives use, or some sort of wood-burning device...

Generator-wise, somebody else drew the distinction between
"Lifeboat" and "Cruise Ship".

I went with "Lifeboat" figuring that if the outage were short, I
can live with the minimalism... and if it were long I'd probably
appreciate not having to hunt for gas as much.


--
Pete Cresswell

[Jim Wilkins]

"(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:nb2ac8d9uhfp1v5fc...@4ax.com...

> >
> How about buying a "Kill-A-Watt" electric meter for them:
> http://tinyurl.com/bhs96qs ?
>
> Then they could get some actual numbers.
>

> Pete Cresswell

The oil furnaces and circulation pumps we had when I was young were
hard-wired, like the water heater.
jsw

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 10:00:46 -0500, j <mun...@att.net> wrote:

>On 12/8/2012 9:01 PM, Jim wrote:
>> My daughter moved to Alaska a few years ago, and they recently
>> moved into a small house belonging to a friend who is now
>> living in Hawaii. The house had been vacant for some time,
>> and they worked a deal with the owner (a good friend) to keep
>> the place up and do repairs, etc. They got the oil furnace
>> working, but since the cost of fuel oil is so expensive they
>> are now using two electric heaters which keep the place warm
>> as long as outside temps are above 20 degrees F.
>
>Electricity is usually the most expensive, but electric is great for
>spot heating.
>>
>> My concern is that if they lose electricity, which is not
>> uncommon on their island, they will lose not only their
>> electric heaters but the oil furnace too.
>
>This forced air? Then it is the same as it would be if it was gas.

Not true. Gas does not require a high pressure injection pump, or a
constant spark ignitor. The blower will LIKELY be either 1/6, 1/4, 1/3
or 1/2HP. The pump will be less than 1/6 and the ignitor will be less
than 2 amps -. The difference between gas and oil will likely be
relatively minor - but it WILL be a difference.

[Martin Riddle]

"Jim Rojas" <jro...@tech-man.com> wrote in message
news:42Tws.8750$sm1....@newsfe22.iad...

I'd second that recommendation. Our oil furnace does ok on a 2Kw genny.
Although you can hear the startup of the blower and circulator.
There's a Yamaha Inverter generator that sounds like it can take the
load, was designed for starting HVAC units in motor homes.
I think it’s the 2.8kw model.
Otherwise stick with non-inverter gen.

Cheers

[Jim]

Fellows;

Thanks for all the suggestions, and at this time I don't know anything
about the place, they are just moving in. I was mainly thinking about
heat in case of a grid power failure. They know nothing about
electricity
or generators. I'll try to get more info but they are pretty busy
just trying to move in a snowstorm, they can't even get their truck
up the hill to the house, have to use a sled right now. They did tell
me that some of the circuits are messed up (wired wrong I guess), and
they will have to get that sorted out. I'll try to get more details
after the snowstorm blows itself out.

The daughter told me she thinks there is a generator in the garage
under all the junk owners stored there but they can't even get to the
garage
right now. The fellow that owns the house is out at sea off Hawaii
so they can't reach him at this time either. They were under the
impression that everything was working and they just had to move in,
but someone had stolen all the oil from the tank and the furnace did
not work, amnong many other unanticipated repairs needed. They are
having to shovel snow off the roof to keep it from leaking, etc. etc.





JIm

[Jim]

On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 15:32:25 -0600, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net>
wrote:

I think the State of Alaska is footing much of the electric bill, not
sure, but I think she said heating oil is almost $6 per gallon, but
may have heard it wrong. She said it's better for them to use the
two elecric heaters than the oil furnace, which is working now, but it
requires some electricity too, I know nothing about them but will try
to get more details when things settle down up there. DOwn here all
heat runs on Natural Gas.

These are all great ideas to consider. I wishi I was up there I could
have them straightened out in a few days, we have two generators down
here, just got another old Onan and am working on getting it up to
snuff and converting it to natural gas.
We also have a Honda Inverter generator that is just great, but only 3
kw. It kept us going during Isaac, running on Natural Gas. We had
nothing during Katrina and it was very bad for weeks, not a drop of
gasoline or diesel to be had.

I don't think they have a well pump to run, that would be a different
ballgame, but will check it out.

Jim

[Bruce Gordon]

In article <ivbac8hbuhg2v6r0u...@4ax.com>,

Jim <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:

> I think the State of Alaska is footing much of the electric bill, not
> sure, but I think she said heating oil is almost $6 per gallon, but
> may have heard it wrong. She said it's better for them to use the
> two elecric heaters than the oil furnace, which is working now, but it
> requires some electricity too, I know nothing about them but will try
> to get more details when things settle down up there. DOwn here all
> heat runs on Natural Gas.
>
> These are all great ideas to consider. I wishi I was up there I could
> have them straightened out in a few days, we have two generators down
> here, just got another old Onan and am working on getting it up to
> snuff and converting it to natural gas.
> We also have a Honda Inverter generator that is just great, but only 3
> kw. It kept us going during Isaac, running on Natural Gas. We had
> nothing during Katrina and it was very bad for weeks, not a drop of
> gasoline or diesel to be had.
>
> I don't think they have a well pump to run, that would be a different
> ballgame, but will check it out.
>
> Jim

Depends on what TYPE of Oil furnace she is dealing with... If it is a
Forced Air then there will be two motors to run. One on the burner and
one to circulate the Air. Usually both are in the 1 HP or smaller Range.
that would be less than 2 KW. A 3Kw Honda Inverter or even a Straight
Genset would do just fine. If it were "Me" I would be looking for an
Onan MDJA or DJA 3KW Genset for her. The MDJA is Water Cooled, and
mounting a Radiator, connected to it's Cooling System, inside the
insulated Cabin, with an electric Fan, allows her to use the Cooling
System Heat to supplement the Oil Furnace heat, instead of just blowing
it out in the cold air. If a DJA could be found, it would certainly be
effective enough to keep her toasty during any Power Outages....
I have two MDJAs, and a DJA that I can use for Backup Power should that
be required, here at my place.

--
Bruce in Alaska add path before the @ for email

[Daniel who wants to know]

> "Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
> news:2sb9c89qlk8p0du9c...@4ax.com...

>
>
> All other things being equal, I would agree. But he's using oil and
> electricity to heat his house, and the generator is being used to backup
> only essential circuits. A generator that can > run on home heating oil
> may be overkill for what he needs. If they have prolonged outages, my
> recommendation would be a propane fueled, water cooled, 1800 rpm generator
> with
> some kind of automatic weekly exerciser, and, preferably, a good ATS. But
> without knowing more of the specifics, and the budget, I find it really
> hard to make an intelligent
> recommendation.

If it is liquid cooled I would also do co-gen, I.E. use the coolant waste
heat to heat the building. You could even use a small DC pump on a battery
to circulate the coolant and use the building's heat to preheat the engine
block somewhat before starting it.