Goulds vs Jacuzzi Deep Well Pump?
LMvine
either Goulds or Jacuzzi, both 5 yr guarantee, same price. Any preferences and
why?
Thanks, Dan
Mac 2805
cents.
Jim
David Kunz
: I am replacing my deep well submersible pump (3/4 HP). I have a
: choice of either Goulds or Jacuzzi, both 5 yr guarantee, same
: price. Any preferences and why?
Goulds comes highly recommended -- HOWEVER...
I just replaced an unknown pump with a Goulds (the unknown lasted an
incredible 15 years, including a lightning strike -- wish I knew the
brand). Both use (used) Franklin motors and Franklin's been good
about answering questions about running on solar / inverters and even
faxed me a schematic on using a run-capacitor to reduce current/power
draw. But the Goulds pump uses 2x the power to pump that same amount
of water -- both drew about 1.5kw running, but the Goulds pumps at 1/2
the speed. Goulds has no answer to this other than a faster pump would
not handle the depth of my well (the old pump did...). They say the
pump's working as spec'd and the installing electrician agrees.
SO -- check the power vs. pumping gallons (and pumping depth) claims
carefully before choosing!
and,
look into a run capacitor. This knocked 1.2 amps off my run current
(went from 8 to 6.6)
make sure that it'll work with a mod-sine inverter if that's what
you're using. With Franklin motors, you can't be using the solid
state starter with a mod-sine. The old voltage relay works best and
can be outfitted with a run capacitor.
you want the controller above ground so that it can be replaced
easily (I went through 3 on my old unit -- running off the grid)
a 3-wire setup will have a lower starting current surge requirement
a 230v will have less loss in the wires going to the motor
--
David Kunz
Operator error. Replace operator and strike any key to continue...
George Estep
I realize you said your choices were Goulds and Jacuzzi, but... Since
you wrote this message in alt.energy.homepower, I will make the assumption
that efficiency and low starting surge are important to you.
Grundfos recently announced a new line of pumps called SQ that use
synchronous machines rather than induction machines for the electric motor.
These pumps have NO starting surge and draw current at unity power factor
(current in-phase with voltage). They also are quite a bit more efficient.
Here are the list of features listed on their website:
Rugged Design
1/3 - 1.5 Hp Integral Motors
Excellent Sand Handling Capabilities
High Motor and Pump Efficiencies
Built in Dry-Run Protection
Overload / Locked Rotor Protection
Overvoltage / Undervoltage Protection
Over Temperature Protection
No Control Box Required
Soft-Start
Multiple Frequency Input (50 - 60 Hz)
Two Voltage Variants:
1 x 100 - 115V
1 x 200 - 230V
Pump and Motor Can Be Separated
High Starting Torque (Even at Low Voltages)
Easy to Install
Serviceable Pump and Motor
Replaceable Motor Lead
While this is a new product, it is based on a design they started
selling in 1996 called the JetSub. This pump had similar motor technology,
but I understand it had plastic impellers in the pump. I believe it was the
technology vehicle for evaluating this new line of pumps.
I haven't priced the SQs yet, but if they are like the JetSubs, they
will cost a little more than a standard pump.
You can download the datasheet for these pumps at:
http://www.us.grundfos.com/downloads/sq/SubBook.pdf
The main page for the pumps is:
http://www.us.grundfos.com/web/ProdMisc.nsf/Pages/SQ-MainMenu
however, this page has something in it which crashes my web browser
(IE5)every time I view it. The workaround is to clear the history in my
browser and go back to the page, stopping loading just before the crash. If
you are lucky, you will have just enough of the menu on the left frame to
navigate after you have done this.
Regards,
George Estep
LMvine wrote in message <19991022115611...@ng-fl1.aol.com>...
>I am replacing my deep well submersible pump (3/4 HP). I have a choice of
>either Goulds or Jacuzzi, both 5 yr guarantee, same price. Any preferences
and
>why?
>
>Thanks, Dan
George Estep
The JetSub pumps require a sinewave inverter such as the Trace SW
series, so I will assume that the SQ series does as well. If you are using
a modified sinewave inverter, I think you should avoid this pump.
Regards,
George Estep
George Estep wrote in message ...
wmbjk
>
> Grundfos recently announced a new line of pumps called SQ that use
> synchronous machines rather than induction machines for the electric
motor.
> These pumps have NO starting surge and draw current at unity power
factor
> (current in-phase with voltage). They also are quite a bit more
efficient.
> While this is a new product, it is based on a design they started
> selling in 1996 called the JetSub. This pump had similar motor
technology,
> but I understand it had plastic impellers in the pump. I believe it
was the
> technology vehicle for evaluating this new line of pumps.
>
> I haven't priced the SQs yet, but if they are like the JetSubs,
they
> will cost a little more than a standard pump.
>
If the new Grundfos pumps are anything like the previous JetSubs, I
would stay away from them, unless you can get some guarantee that they
are safe to run on an inverter.
Four years ago I tried one of these on a dual SW4024 setup. The pump
instructions warned not to run the unit off a generator, but it did not
say why. So I didn’t, but the pump failed after a few months of very
light use anyway. After much complaining the distributor replaced if
for free, but it’s no small thing to pull a pump up from 230 feet, and
I had to eat that. After about a week of normal use, the replacement
failed as well. This time the local distributor did not want to talk to
me. I bought a standard Jacuzzi (Franklin motor), and it has been
running all of the time since with no problems. Plus it’s safe to run
on the inverters or the generator.
Eventually I called the main distributor and they admitted that it was
fair to call the built in electronics on the JetSub “delicate”. They
sent me some circulation pumps that I needed as compensation.
The JetSub (if I understood it right) was a DC pump with built in
electronics to allow it to run off AC. It was supposed to be more
efficient, with a lower startup draw. I shouldn’t have bothered with it
since two 4024's can run a regular submersible without breaking a
sweat. Our water use is fairly low (9 minutes run time per day) so any
increase in efficiency wouldn’t have made any real difference to us
anyway.
Grundfos is a good company, but the JetSub had a design problem that
made it extra fussy about its input. Hopefully their new product does
not have this problem, but I thought I should mention my past
experience just in case.
Wayne
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
PB
years.........deep well with very hard water, even had a lightning strike or
two. Everyone I know recommends a Goulds for deep wells. My only
experience with a Jacuzzi was a pool pump which was a piece of junk.
Hope you have good luck with whatever you choose...
Pat
George Estep
I had been looking at buying one of these to run off my dual SW5548s as
they had been recommended by a couple of solar dealers on the web (Mr. Solar
and Jade Mountain). My goal was to have a pump which would easily run from
one of the inverters with a step-up transformer (I have all critical loads
on one phase in case one inverter fails). I decided to do this with my
current pump anyway. As it turned out, the steady-state draw on my current
pump was 5.4 amps at 240V. After I put in the transformer, the draw was
10.9 amps at 120V. I was thrilled! This is a pump that is 240 feet down in
the well that provides ~9 gallons per minute! In any case, I have been
running it from a 20A breaker from 120V with no problems for the past week.
As you pointed out, the well does not use that much energy. In my case,
I believe it pumps about 30 minutes each day, using about 700 watt-hours per
day (DC).
This brings up a couple of questions: Why is the draw so low on this
pump? It is a two-wire pump which was installed in 1995. I don't know the
brand or model. My guess is that the only way it can pump 9 gallons a
minute from 240 feet is that the water level in the well is high. The well
report says that the static water level is 85 feet. If this is the reason,
my concern is that I will start tripping the breaker if the water level gets
lower during dry weather. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Two comments about Wayne's post. First, I do not believe these pumps
use DC motors in them. The datasheet only describes them as 'permanent
magnet' motors. In any case, I am fairly sure that they are refering to a
'brushless DC' motor, which is actually a synchronous machine combined with
an electronic commutator. Also, Wayne mentioned that his pump instructions
warned about running the pump off a generator. The datasheet for the SQ
actually gives a specification called 'Operating via Generator - As a
minimum, the generator output must be equal to the motor P1(KW) + 10%'.
In any case, thanks again, Wayne. Any bad experiences you had certainly
far outweigh any good things printed in a datasheet. I certainly will stay
away from these unless I hear good things about the SQ pumps about ten years
from now!
Regards,
George Estep
wmbjk wrote in message <7ut994$7io$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
wmbjk
> my concern is that I will start tripping the breaker if the water
level gets
> lower during dry weather. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
>
Information in my previous post about the type of motor in the JetSub
came (I think) from a 4 or 5 year old Sunelco catalog. Perhaps someone
still has one of these and can fill us in for interest.
Since the SQ model has generator recommendations, it must be different,
or at least more robust. Its also a good sign that solar dealers are
recommending it, I presume they've had good experience.
I too had concerns about over-pumping our well since its yield is lower
than that of the pump. I used an adjustable interval timer (Newark
Electronics) to shut off the pump after 40 minutes, no matter whether
it is started manually or automatically. I also ran the automatic
controls through an X-10 relay, so that the pump only runs one cycle
each day, in early afternoon. X-10 devices wouldn’t work on the SW’s
though. I have a separate Exeltech true sine circuit, so I put the
signal part of the controls on that. I wrote a brief bit on a neat
battery powered digital timer in the Trace forum. That timer could be
used in this application, with or without the interval timer. Taking
the belt and suspenders approach, I also put in a pump protector. These
devices shut off the pump in case of power fluctuations or low water.
For small submersibles they cost under $150, so they’re cheap insurance
compared to the expense and nuisance of having to pull a pump to make
repairs.
George Estep
Thanks for the info. I put in large pressure tanks and hope to
eliminate pumping when the sun is not shining. It sounds like you
accomplised this with the X-10 devices. I bought some X-10 devices a little
while ago and found them to be complete garbage. Perhaps I got a bad lot,
but I was unsuccessful at getting these to work properly. I have a slightly
different situation, also, since I think my system cycles three times each
day. My goal is to have it only cycle during sunlight, information which
could be provided by my charge controller. The problem is that I would like
to *force* it to pump just before the sun goes down to ensure the tanks are
full for night. I can't see how to make this happen without getting too
exotic (unreliable). Any thoughts?
Also, see comments below:
George
wmbjk wrote in message <7uv939$fja$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
>> my concern is that I will start tripping the breaker if the water
>level gets
>> lower during dry weather. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>
>Information in my previous post about the type of motor in the JetSub
>came (I think) from a 4 or 5 year old Sunelco catalog. Perhaps someone
>still has one of these and can fill us in for interest.
>
>Since the SQ model has generator recommendations, it must be different,
>or at least more robust. Its also a good sign that solar dealers are
>recommending it, I presume they've had good experience.
I was referring to the JetSub when I mentioned the solar dealers. I have
not heard any testimonials, good or bad, on the SQ series.
>
>I too had concerns about over-pumping our well since its yield is lower
>than that of the pump.
My original concern was that in the dry season, the level in the well may be
substantially lower than it currently is, making the total head higher.
This would make the torque on the motor and hence the current higher. I
haven't been able to measure the surge for my pump, so it could even be
marginal today. Unfortunately, I don't know the water level of the well or
how low it gets in drought conditions or when it is pumped. Since I pump 75
gallons each cycle, I estimate that it could use a column of water that was
~44 feet high (7" per gallon).
Basically, I find the well to be somewhat of a mystery. Every driller I
have ever spoke with has a *completely* different view of how wells work.
>I used an adjustable interval timer (Newark
>Electronics) to shut off the pump after 40 minutes, no matter whether
>it is started manually or automatically. I also ran the automatic
>controls through an X-10 relay, so that the pump only runs one cycle
>each day, in early afternoon. X-10 devices wouldn’t work on the SW’s
>though. I have a separate Exeltech true sine circuit, so I put the
>signal part of the controls on that. I wrote a brief bit on a neat
>battery powered digital timer in the Trace forum. That timer could be
>used in this application, with or without the interval timer. Taking
>the belt and suspenders approach, I also put in a pump protector. These
>devices shut off the pump in case of power fluctuations or low water.
>For small submersibles they cost under $150, so they’re cheap insurance
>compared to the expense and nuisance of having to pull a pump to make
>repairs.
All of these types of protection are built into the SQ pumps. The
protection is something that attracted me to them. It also had the
capability to keep track of energy usage, number of cycles and such. Maybe
someday it will have all of this *plus* proven reliability.
wmbjk
complete garbage. Perhaps I got a bad lot, but I was unsuccessful at
getting these to work properly.
George
I’ve bought X-10's from many suppliers over the last 20 years, never
had one that didn’t work. But they can be fussy if there is any noise
on the line, and they won’t work at all with most inverters I don’t
think. Check places like Home Automation or Home Controls if you want
info about filters etc.
*** The problem is that I would like to *force* it to pump just before
the sun goes down to ensure the tanks are full for night. I can't see
how to make this happen without getting too exotic (unreliable). Any
thoughts?
I doubt it’s worth your trouble to do this, but just off the top of my
head, you could add a second pressure switch, with an alternate feed
going through a timer (running a relay). The timer I mentioned
previously would be good.
http://www.forum.traceengineering.com/~trace/
http://www.intermatic.com/hpcp/hpcpews/ss7c.htm The timer would come on
at whatever time you set, it would energize the relay, which would
start the pump. The pressure switch would shut the pump off. You would
get no cycle, or a short cycle if the tanks were already charged. You
could easily spend $75 to do it, not worth it in my opinion
***My original concern was that in the dry season, the level in the
well may be substantially lower than it currently is, making the total
head higher. This would make the torque on the motor and hence the
current higher. I haven't been able to measure the surge for my pump,
so it could even be marginal today. Unfortunately, I don't know the
water level of the well or how low it gets in drought conditions or
when it is pumped. Since I pump 75 gallons each cycle, I estimate that
it could use a column of water that was ~44 feet high (7" per gallon).
Basically, I find the well to be somewhat of a mystery. Every driller I
have ever spoke with has a *completely* different view of how wells
work.
I wouldn’t worry about the torque or the surge. But if you want to
figure out what the well is doing, you can measure the level with a
fishing line and a weight. Just listen for it to hit the water, and
measure the line. Alternatively you can drop a plastic tube down below
water level. Put an air gage and schrader valve on the top of the tube.
Pressurize the line (a hand pump will do), read the remaining pressure
to gage the depth. Either way, do it before and after pumping, you’ll
soon get the picture.
George Estep
I may give some of these a try.
Thanks again,
George
wmbjk wrote in message <7v067f$2no$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
<Snipped great stuff>
Alan Robinson
George Estep wrote in message ...
>
snip snip
>current pump anyway. As it turned out, the steady-state draw on my current
>pump was 5.4 amps at 240V. After I put in the transformer, the draw was
>10.9 amps at 120V. I was thrilled! This is a pump that is 240 feet down
in
>the well that provides ~9 gallons per minute! In any case, I have been
>running it from a 20A breaker from 120V with no problems for the past week.
>
snip snip >
> This brings up a couple of questions: Why is the draw so low on this
>pump? It is a two-wire pump which was installed in 1995. I don't know the
>brand or model. My guess is that the only way it can pump 9 gallons a
>minute from 240 feet is that the water level in the well is high. The well
>report says that the static water level is 85 feet. If this is the reason,
>my concern is that I will start tripping the breaker if the water level
gets
>lower during dry weather. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
George, you.ve got half right and half, well....wrong. Probably the only
reason the pump can do 9 gpm _is_ the high static water level, and I would
expect that to decrease if the static level gets lower. But the pump load
is far more a function of how much water is being pumped than of the pump
head, i.e. most centrifugal pumps draw max current with an open discharge.
If you are at all worried about it, plumb the pump with a valve that will
let you restrict the discharge and check the current as you slowly close the
valve - I think you will find that current will slowly drop as you approach
_no_ water flow - which would also be the maximum pump head. (Caution -
don't run with valve closed for any length of time - the motor is still
putting approx 1hp of energy into the water in the pump and can heat it up
pretty rapidly). HTH,
Alan
David Kunz
: But the pump load is far more a function of how much water is being
: pumped than of the pump head, i.e. most centrifugal pumps draw max
: current with an open discharge. If you are at all worried about it,
: plumb the pump with a valve that will let you restrict the
: discharge and check the current as you slowly close the valve - I
: think you will find that current will slowly drop as you approach
: _no_ water flow - which would also be the maximum pump head.
: (Caution - don't run with valve closed for any length of time - the
: motor is still putting approx 1hp of energy into the water in the
: pump and can heat it up pretty rapidly). HTH, Alan
Goulds recommended that to me -- said that the pump that I had
shouldn't be capable of pumping at the rate that I'm getting (he
didn't believe me until I explained in detail how I got the GPM number
-- he thought that I'd done something wrong). I haven't tried it yet
because I figured that it would also drop the GPM and I would end up
behind in terms of gallons/watt. Any insights? Is it worth a try? I
was also concerned that someone might accidentally close the valve and
trash the pump...
Alan Robinson
David Kunz wrote in message ...
David, sounds like several different concerns going on here. I'll try to
cover those you asked and those you implied too.
1. I suggested the test w/ valve to reassure you that you were unlikely to
have a higher current draw from the pump when the water level in the well
got lower. If your pump is running within its current ratings, no need to
have a valve permanently installed - if your pump draws more than nameplate,
then yes, you should use a valve to throttle the ouput a little until
current is within rating. Not to increase efficiency, but to make your pump
live a little longer.
2. While pumps do have a pump curve, with best efficiency usually near the
middle of the curve, I don't think you would have a significant gain in
efficiency by throttling output - the curves are usually fairly broad. Not
to mention that one of the variables affecting it - the static well level -
is something that you can't directly control, so the valve setting for this
month may differ from next month etc.
3. If you do wind up with a valve permanently installed, taking the handle
off the stem after you have adjusted it will _usually_ keep others from
closing it by "accident".
4. Your current pump sounds like a gem - wish you knew what it actually was
so we could look at the pump curve and _maybe_ figure out why it's such an
overachiever.
Alan
David Kunz
:
: David, sounds like several different concerns going on here. I'll try to
: cover those you asked and those you implied too.
Thanks! Since with the run capacitor, it's at the bottom of it's
current draw, I'll leave it alone (it's very near the top without the
run-cap).
: 4. Your current pump sounds like a gem - wish you knew what it actually was
: so we could look at the pump curve and _maybe_ figure out why it's such an
: overachiever.
It's a Goulds 5gs07412, 3/4 hp, 230v, 3-wire. But it's not an
overachiever WRT gallons/watt. It is almost 1/2 of the pump that it
replaced. It draws about 1500 watts running and pumps about 10 GPM.
The old one drew about the same, but pumped 17 GPM! Wish I had it
back... :(. Well's about 300'. Don't have a clue where the water
table is -- other than I usually pump it dry once or twice during the
summer when we forget to set the timer when toping off the pool or
watering the vegetables... :).
--
David Kunz
Operator error. Replace operator and strike any key to continue...
scottrosan...@gmail.com
stil...@pfinc.com
Vaughn Simon
> Our Jacuzzi lasted 23 yrs and died this morning. We are installing a Gould and hoping for the best!!
>
don't know anything specific about those brands, but why not replace
with the same pump that worked so good for you before?
Jim Rojas
Jim Rojas
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