Wind Solar unreliable compared to Gas Coal Nuclear

[contact]

When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

[Dechucka]

On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>

Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go figure

[Just Wondering]

We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

[Dechucka]

That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
achieved.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Just Wondering" wrote in message news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1....@fx19.iad...

-----------------------

"Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your only
source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to postpone the use
of that electricity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box

[Dechucka]

Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000
megawatts of battery storage to put into the grid.

[Bob F]

No, we do not.
Yes, they can.

[Just Wondering]

Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar". Storage batteries =
chemical energy -> electrical energy. They don't postpone
the use of solar energy, they use electrical energy which can
be from any source to make a chemical reaction. When you use
a battery, another chemical reaction that results in the release
of electrical energy. None of those processes involve solar
energy.

[Just Wondering]

The reality is probably that you uses solar energy when the sun
is shining, and chemical energy in the form of batteries when
solar energy is unavailable.

[Just Wondering]

Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.

[Just Wondering]

Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
is below the horizon.

[Bob F]

I don't need to play your word games. The energy is solar, with some
stored in batteries for later use. It is not hydro, it is not fossil
fuel, it is solar.

[Dechucka]

On 28/09/2021 11:15 am, Just Wondering wrote:
> On 9/27/2021 3:25 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>> On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>
>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
>>>> figure
>>>
>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>
>> That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
>> achieved.
>
> The reality is probably that you uses solar energy when the sun
> is shining, and chemical energy in the form of batteries when
> solar energy is unavailable.

The reality is that the energy comes from the sun, batteries are a
storage mechanism

>
> Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar".

Yes they are as that is what charges them

> Storage batteries =
> chemical energy -> electrical energy.  They don't postpone
> the use of solar energy, they use electrical energy which can
> be from any source to make a chemical reaction.  When you use
> a battery, another chemical reaction that results in the release
> of electrical energy.  None of those processes involve solar
> energy.

I'll give it ago and disconnect my solar panels from the batteries and
see how long this chemical reaction lasts, actually I know it will be 5
days. Than I will recharge them from the sun.

[Dechucka]

Solar energy is a chemical reaction, hey you can claim I'm using nuclear
power. If it makes you happy to believe that renewable energy can't keep
going when the sun doesn't and the wind doesn't blow because chemical
storage is used so be it.
>

[Dechucka]

Except for the charging part in my case

[Just Wondering]

On 9/27/2021 8:53 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> On 28/09/2021 11:15 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 9/27/2021 3:25 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>> On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
>>>>> figure
>>>>
>>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>>
>>> That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
>>> achieved.
>>
>> The reality is probably that you uses solar energy when the sun
>> is shining, and chemical energy in the form of batteries when
>> solar energy is unavailable.
>
> The reality is that the energy comes from the sun, batteries are a
> storage mechanism

If you want to play that game, hydroelectric power is only a
storage mechanism for solar energy. Wind energy is only a
storage machanism for solar energy. Burning anything (wood,
coal, oil, natural gas, ethanol, whatever) is only a storage
mechanism for solar energy. From science's explanation of how
suns and planets are formed, even nuclear energy is only a
storage mechanism for solar energy.

>>
>> Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar".
>
> Yes they are as that is what charges them

Any source of electricity will charge batteries. I charge the
batteries in my wireless computer mouse by plugging the mouse
into a USB port, which draws power from my computer which is
plugged into an outlet that receives power from my friendly
regional electric utility, which gets its electricity from
who knows where. Battery power is not solar power no matter
how much you want to rationalize it.>

>> Storage batteries = chemical energy -> electrical energy.
>> They don't postpone the use of solar energy, they use electrical
>> energy which can be from any source to make a chemical reaction.
>> When you use a battery, another chemical reaction that results
>> in the release of electrical energy.  None of those processes
>> involve solar energy.
>

> I'll give it a go and disconnect my solar panels from the batteries

> and see how long this chemical reaction lasts, actually I know it
> will be 5 days.

During those five days you will get your electricity from a
chemical reaction, not from the sun.

> Than I will recharge them from the sun.

Or you could recharge your batteries from a gas-powered generator,
or you could hook up a car generator to a windmill and use the wind
to charge your batteries, or connect that generator to a stationary
bicycle and pedal away until your batteries are charged. However
you charge your batteries, when you draw power from those batteries
it is not solar power, it is chemical energy.

[Just Wondering]

On 9/27/2021 9:01 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> On 28/09/2021 11:16 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 9/27/2021 4:31 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>> On 28/09/2021 8:11 am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>> "Just Wondering"  wrote in message
>>>> news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1....@fx19.iad...
>>>>
>>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
>>>>> figure
>>>>
>>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>>>
>>>> -----------------------
>>>>
>>>> "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is
>>>> your only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to
>>>> postpone the use of that electricity.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
>>> system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000
>>> megawatts of battery storage to put into the grid.
>>
>> Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.
>
> Solar energy is a chemical reaction, hey you can claim I'm using nuclear
> power.

Solar power comes from nuclear fusion, not a chemical reaction.

> If it makes you happy to believe that renewable energy can't
> keep going when the sun doesn't and the wind doesn't blow
> because chemical storage is used so be it.

It's not my "belief", I am describing the science of what
is solar energy.

https://justenergy.com/blog/what-is-solar-energy/ Notice where
it says, "Disadvantages of Solar Energy It Won’t Work at Night."

[Just Wondering]

You could use excess solar power during the day to pump water into an
uphill pond and use a water-powered generator at night. We can and do
use solar energy to grow trees and such that can be burned to power
electric generators. Fossil fuel is just wood that has been stored a
very long time before we burn it to release the stored solar power.

It's not a word game. Energy stored in batteries literally is
not solar energy even if electricity generated from solar panels
is used to charge the batteries. If you're going to play THAT
word game, quite literally every energy source in use is stored
solar energy. If that's the game you want to play, hydro power
is stored solar power. Wind power is stored solar power, Energy
from burning any sort of fuel is stored solar power. Muscle power
is stored solar power. Geothermal is stored solar power. Even
nuclear is stored solar power. So if THAT's how you play the
game, every house on the planet is totally solar.

[Dechucka]

Of course solar is the source of power for the batteries. Thanks for a
new but inane argument

>>> Storage batteries = chemical energy -> electrical energy. They don't
>>> postpone the use of solar energy, they use electrical
>>> energy which can be from any source to make a chemical reaction. When
>>> you use a battery, another chemical reaction that results
>>> in the release of electrical energy.  None of those processes
>>> involve solar energy.
>>
>> I'll give it a go and disconnect my solar panels from the batteries
>> and see how long this chemical reaction lasts, actually I know it will
>> be 5 days.
>
> During those five days you will get your electricity from a
> chemical reaction, not from the sun.

A chemical reaction that got it's power from being recharged by the sun

>
>> Than I will recharge them from the sun.
>
> Or you could recharge your batteries from a gas-powered generator,
> or you could hook up a car generator to a windmill and use the wind
> to charge your batteries,

Are wind power is an excellent renewable energy source

> or connect that generator to a stationary
> bicycle and pedal away until your batteries are charged.

My emergency radio works like that

> However
> you charge your batteries, when you draw power from those batteries
> it is not solar power, it is chemical energy.

If you're happy with that inanity so be it

[Dechucka]

On 28/09/2021 4:56 pm, Just Wondering wrote:
> On 9/27/2021 8:30 PM, Bob F wrote:
>> On 9/27/2021 6:17 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>> On 9/27/2021 5:00 PM, Bob F wrote:
>>>> On 9/27/2021 2:12 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night.
>>>>>> Go figure
>>>>>
>>>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>>>
>>>> No, we do not.
>>>> Yes, they can.
>>>
>>> Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
>>> is below the horizon.
>>
>> I don't need to play your word games. The energy is solar, with some
>> stored in batteries for later use. It is not hydro, it is not fossil
>> fuel, it is solar.
>
> You could use excess solar power during the day to pump water into an
> uphill pond and use a water-powered generator at night.

Called pump hydro such a scheme is being built in the Snowys

We can and do
> use solar energy to grow trees and such that can be burned to power
> electric generators.  Fossil fuel is just wood that has been stored a
> very long time before we burn it to release the stored solar power.
>
> It's not a word game.  Energy stored in batteries literally is
> not solar energy even if electricity generated from solar panels
> is used to charge the batteries.  If you're going to play THAT
> word game, quite literally every energy source in use is stored
> solar energy.  If that's the game you want to play, hydro power
> is stored solar power.  Wind power is stored solar power,  Energy
> from burning any sort of fuel is stored solar power.  Muscle power
> is stored solar power.  Geothermal is stored solar power.  Even
> nuclear is stored solar power.  So if THAT's how you play the
> game, every house on the planet is totally solar.

So lets stick to the renewable forms of this solar energy as I'm doing
with my solar powered farm

[Just Wondering]

On 9/27/2021 9:02 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> On 28/09/2021 11:13 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 9/27/2021 4:11 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>> "Just Wondering"  wrote in message
>>> news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1....@fx19.iad...
>>>
>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>
>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
>>>> figure
>>>
>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

>>> "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your
>>> only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to
>>> postpone the use of that electricity.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
>>
>> Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar".  Storage batteries =
>> chemical energy -> electrical energy.  They don't postpone
>> the use of solar energy, they use electrical energy which can
>> be from any source to make a chemical reaction.  When you use
>> a battery, another chemical reaction that results in the release
>> of electrical energy.  None of those processes involve solar
>> energy.
>
> Except for the charging part in my case

It sounds like you use electricity from photovoltaic cells during
the day to charge your batteries. You then use electricity from
discharging your batteries when solar energy is not available.
That latter use is chemical energy, not solar energy.

Read my other posts on this subject. If you want to play the game
of "my batteries are stored solar power", then every bloody energy
source on the planet, from horse-drawn carts to burning wood or
ethanol or coal to wind and hydro power to nuclear power is also
stored solar power.

[Just Wondering]

I'm talking science, you're talking political correctness.

[Trevor Wilson]

On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:

**You have 17th century thinking. The rest of us exist in the 21st century.

[Dechucka]

snip

>> My emergency radio works like that
>>
>>> However you charge your batteries, when you draw power from
>>> those batteries it is not solar power, it is chemical energy.
>>
>> If you're happy with that inanity so be it
>
> I'm talking science, you're talking political correctness.

If you can talk science you'll know all about the GHG properties of
certain molecules, I'm sure you've kept up with the science as it's been
known since the 1800s. You'll also understand that these molecules don't
change their properties from the lab to the atmosphere.
I'll do my bit while at the same time saving money and ensuring
reliability esp during bush-fires and other natural disasters.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Just Wondering" wrote in message news:_1u4J.58228$2Q_3....@fx35.iad...

Then you don't understand the formal logic of scientific modeling. The Black
Box can include internal storage of inputs.

> Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.

That's irrelevant if the source of that energy is solar.

You can call it whatever you please, but these systems are really defined by
the scientists and engineers who design and build them.

Solar panels without either storage or a sink like the grid to receive the
energy are nearly useless, because almost all real-world loads are so
variable.

I've been experimenting with immediate use of solar power in a freezer with
a DC compressor. In the middle of the day solar panel output is enough to
operate the compressor, and the Watt meter on the input to the attached AC
power supply reads zero.

When the compressor is off the solar current diverts to float charging the
freezer's backup battery and topping off other spares. Yesterday I checked
the battery electrolyte and confirmed that the float voltage is enough to
maintain a full charge but below the gassing level. This is how a UPS or
exit light maintains its lead-acid battery, with the disadvantage that after
an outage a full recharge at the float voltage can take a day or more, as
indicated by the trickle charging current.

When solar current isn't enough the compressor draws the rest from the AC
supply, shown by the power division on their Watt meters, or if the grid
fails it draws from the battery.

This meter keeps track of energy into and out of the battery:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32785159924.html
and this one monitors power drawn from the the AC line:
https://www.aliexpress.com/cheap/cheap-pzem-061.html
This PZEM-031 reads DC solar power but it doesn't like the low voltages at
dawn and dusk so I added a relay that protects it from seeing less than 10V:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32413784036.html

That's as close as I get to using all available solar power as it is
produced.

The other application for immediate use of solar power is heating water, but
I keep my low voltage solar circuits as isolated from the grid as possible
for safety. Otherwise it's just a theoretical exercise, not a practical home
power system.

You can't intelligently discuss energy without an understanding of
thermodynamics and energy quality, which concerns how easily it can be
transformed between forms such as the heat of a fire vs electricity or shaft
rotation. Unfortunately the non-technical general public doesn't seem to
appreciate the distinction between a primary source of energy like sunlight
and the secondary means of storing and distributing it, like hydrogen or
electricity.
https://stem.guide/topic/primary-resources-and-secondary-energy/

"Totally Solar" refers to the primary source. Secondary conversions don't
matter.
jsw

[Jim Wilkins]

"Just Wondering" wrote in message news:D6z4J.85358$Dr.5...@fx40.iad...

It sounds like you use electricity from photovoltaic cells during
the day to charge your batteries. You then use electricity from
discharging your batteries when solar energy is not available.
That latter use is chemical energy, not solar energy.

Read my other posts on this subject. If you want to play the game
of "my batteries are stored solar power", then every bloody energy
source on the planet, from horse-drawn carts to burning wood or
ethanol or coal to wind and hydro power to nuclear power is also
stored solar power.

-------------------

Your attempted redefinition of "total solar" would render the term useless.
You are entitled to your opinion, and we to ours.

[Scout]

"Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:situno$el1$1...@dont-email.me...

<Raises Hand>

Can you tell me how you insure that the energy used to produce every
component of the system, including transportation of such, used 100% solar
power?

Are cargo ships from China now equipped with solar powered engines?

Are you aware that the primary source of the overwhelming bulk of solar
equipment is from the biggest source of emissions and pollution on the
planet?

If you're just pushing the pollution to somewhere you don't see it, does
that really change anything?

[Scout]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:sitfja$nb7$1...@dont-email.me...

Average consumption 30 kilowatthours (kWh).

Figure 16 hours of storage as a bare minimum

100Ahr battery = 600 wh

Minimum required 40 batteries.

Cost about $8000 just for the batteries.

Another $14,000 for the solar system

Figure about $15,000 for installation.

More for the lost floor space, or building to hold all this.

And that only gets you through the day. If you don't have 8 hours of full
charge... overcast, raining, snow, etc then your battery capacity
requirements will go up drastically,.

Then we need to calculate the pollution produced for all that hardware, the
regular replacement of the batteries, panels and systems over a lifetime and
then figure out if you're actually cutting emissions... or just spreading it
around.

Seems to me to be a lot of money and issues for a dubious reduction in
pollution.

[Bob F]

The significant issue is that the solar house with batteries is getting
its energy from the sun, not from fossil fuel, reducing it's damage to
the climate from CO2 releases. If it charged the batteries from a coal
power plant, that would not be the case.

A solar heated house stores thermal energy in thermal mass for use
overnight. A solar powered house can similarly store energy in electric
batteries, or flywheels. They are both solar.

But of course, common sense seems to mean nothing to you. You just have
to be "right".

[Bob F]

Name a few power sources that do not have those costs.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Scout" wrote in message news:siv7tl$t50$7...@dont-email.me...

--------------------------

My backup system isn't nearly that large or expensive, and my normal
consumption is under 5KWH per day.

The backup supports a compact refrigerator and small freezer plus one or two
laptops for cellular Internet and antenna television. For meals I run a 2KW
inverter generator, or use the wood stove since most long outages here are
from winter ice storms. Laundry requires a 3KW generator and kick-starting
by releasing the old Maytag's belt tension with my foot on the motor. I
freeze-dry the laundry on an outdoor clothes line, typically within the same
day since winter humidity is very low.

Two fairly new 12V 105Ah marine batteries will run the inverter for at least
24 hours and maybe 48 depending on conditions. The freezer operates on 12V
DC and can go almost 48 hours on the original pair of ~10 year old
batteries, by recent test. The four marine batteries and four 100W panels
averaged $100 apiece and the sine inverter was free, a "dead" high end APC
UPS. Installation is standing the panels on fold-out legs in the yard or
driveway when I need them for an outage, otherwise a row of small flea
market panels on the roof powers the freezer. After measuring power loss I
upgraded the house solar wire to 10 AWG, a significant expense if you buy it
new.

As best I can figure, the cost of battery depreciation if cycled daily
somewhat exceeds the cost of grid power, so I use the system only for backup
to prolong battery life. I ran the numbers for flooded, AGM and Lithium and
flooded won IF maintained, but not if neglected. I pay $0.18688 per grid KWH
and these $100 batteries would cost $0.20 per KWH if they delivered 1 KWH
each, 500 times. They probably wouldn't last that long, 500 cycles is
pushing the claimed performance of AGMs at twice the price and reportedly
half the storage life, so the high end estimate for battery cost ran around
$0.50/KWH, close to using a generator. I get nearly 10 years in storage from
used PowerSonic 12V 18A AGMs if they are topped up regularly, less than 3
years from Rhinos. They are considered dead and recycled when they won't run
the freezer the equivalent of overnight.

If I switched to daily cycling I would buy different batteries because the
flooded ones may gas if charged fast enough, meaning high enough voltage, to
fully recover from a deep discharge during winter daylight. They don't gas
if limited to the float voltage, but they also don't fully recharge in a
day. They do charge to 70~80% before reaching the gassing voltage, which is
enough for me.

Unless more trees die and fall I don't get enough sun on the roof to justify
a larger permanent installation. What I have has let me unplug from the grid
and keep operating as usual when thunderstorms threaten, and stay off it if
they last overnight. I've only needed the generator briefly a few times
during an extended winter blackout. In clear weather 400W (~330W into the
batteries) of solar power recharged the batteries into the acceptance
(declining current) range by 10AM.

-jsw

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob F" wrote in message news:sivg2e$va0$1...@dont-email.me...

The significant issue is that the solar house with batteries is getting
its energy from the sun, not from fossil fuel, reducing it's damage to
the climate from CO2 releases. If it charged the batteries from a coal
power plant, that would not be the case.

A solar heated house stores thermal energy in thermal mass for use
overnight. A solar powered house can similarly store energy in electric
batteries, or flywheels. They are both solar.

But of course, common sense seems to mean nothing to you. You just have
to be "right".

----------------

If the meaning of words matters more than effective actions then "totally
solar" should exclude the conversion from optical to electrical as well as
from electrical to chemical. The system output should be a beam of sunshine.