Wind Solar unreliable compared to Gas Coal Nuclear

[contact]

When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

[Dechucka]

On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>

Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go figure

[Just Wondering]

We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

[Dechucka]

That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
achieved.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Just Wondering" wrote in message news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1....@fx19.iad...

-----------------------

"Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your only
source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to postpone the use
of that electricity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box

[Dechucka]

Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000
megawatts of battery storage to put into the grid.

[Bob F]

No, we do not.
Yes, they can.

[Just Wondering]

Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar". Storage batteries =
chemical energy -> electrical energy. They don't postpone
the use of solar energy, they use electrical energy which can
be from any source to make a chemical reaction. When you use
a battery, another chemical reaction that results in the release
of electrical energy. None of those processes involve solar
energy.

[Just Wondering]

The reality is probably that you uses solar energy when the sun
is shining, and chemical energy in the form of batteries when
solar energy is unavailable.

[Just Wondering]

Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.

[Just Wondering]

Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
is below the horizon.

[Bob F]

I don't need to play your word games. The energy is solar, with some
stored in batteries for later use. It is not hydro, it is not fossil
fuel, it is solar.

[Dechucka]

On 28/09/2021 11:15 am, Just Wondering wrote:
> On 9/27/2021 3:25 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>> On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>
>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
>>>> figure
>>>
>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>
>> That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
>> achieved.
>
> The reality is probably that you uses solar energy when the sun
> is shining, and chemical energy in the form of batteries when
> solar energy is unavailable.

The reality is that the energy comes from the sun, batteries are a
storage mechanism

>
> Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar".

Yes they are as that is what charges them

> Storage batteries =
> chemical energy -> electrical energy.  They don't postpone
> the use of solar energy, they use electrical energy which can
> be from any source to make a chemical reaction.  When you use
> a battery, another chemical reaction that results in the release
> of electrical energy.  None of those processes involve solar
> energy.

I'll give it ago and disconnect my solar panels from the batteries and
see how long this chemical reaction lasts, actually I know it will be 5
days. Than I will recharge them from the sun.

[Dechucka]

Solar energy is a chemical reaction, hey you can claim I'm using nuclear
power. If it makes you happy to believe that renewable energy can't keep
going when the sun doesn't and the wind doesn't blow because chemical
storage is used so be it.
>

[Dechucka]

Except for the charging part in my case

[Just Wondering]

On 9/27/2021 8:53 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> On 28/09/2021 11:15 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 9/27/2021 3:25 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>> On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
>>>>> figure
>>>>
>>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>>
>>> That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
>>> achieved.
>>
>> The reality is probably that you uses solar energy when the sun
>> is shining, and chemical energy in the form of batteries when
>> solar energy is unavailable.
>
> The reality is that the energy comes from the sun, batteries are a
> storage mechanism

If you want to play that game, hydroelectric power is only a
storage mechanism for solar energy. Wind energy is only a
storage machanism for solar energy. Burning anything (wood,
coal, oil, natural gas, ethanol, whatever) is only a storage
mechanism for solar energy. From science's explanation of how
suns and planets are formed, even nuclear energy is only a
storage mechanism for solar energy.

>>
>> Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar".
>
> Yes they are as that is what charges them

Any source of electricity will charge batteries. I charge the
batteries in my wireless computer mouse by plugging the mouse
into a USB port, which draws power from my computer which is
plugged into an outlet that receives power from my friendly
regional electric utility, which gets its electricity from
who knows where. Battery power is not solar power no matter
how much you want to rationalize it.>

>> Storage batteries = chemical energy -> electrical energy.
>> They don't postpone the use of solar energy, they use electrical
>> energy which can be from any source to make a chemical reaction.
>> When you use a battery, another chemical reaction that results
>> in the release of electrical energy.  None of those processes
>> involve solar energy.
>

> I'll give it a go and disconnect my solar panels from the batteries

> and see how long this chemical reaction lasts, actually I know it
> will be 5 days.

During those five days you will get your electricity from a
chemical reaction, not from the sun.

> Than I will recharge them from the sun.

Or you could recharge your batteries from a gas-powered generator,
or you could hook up a car generator to a windmill and use the wind
to charge your batteries, or connect that generator to a stationary
bicycle and pedal away until your batteries are charged. However
you charge your batteries, when you draw power from those batteries
it is not solar power, it is chemical energy.

[Just Wondering]

On 9/27/2021 9:01 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> On 28/09/2021 11:16 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 9/27/2021 4:31 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>> On 28/09/2021 8:11 am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>> "Just Wondering"  wrote in message
>>>> news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1....@fx19.iad...
>>>>
>>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
>>>>> figure
>>>>
>>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>>>
>>>> -----------------------
>>>>
>>>> "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is
>>>> your only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to
>>>> postpone the use of that electricity.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
>>> system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000
>>> megawatts of battery storage to put into the grid.
>>
>> Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.
>
> Solar energy is a chemical reaction, hey you can claim I'm using nuclear
> power.

Solar power comes from nuclear fusion, not a chemical reaction.

> If it makes you happy to believe that renewable energy can't
> keep going when the sun doesn't and the wind doesn't blow
> because chemical storage is used so be it.

It's not my "belief", I am describing the science of what
is solar energy.

https://justenergy.com/blog/what-is-solar-energy/ Notice where
it says, "Disadvantages of Solar Energy It Won’t Work at Night."

[Just Wondering]

You could use excess solar power during the day to pump water into an
uphill pond and use a water-powered generator at night. We can and do
use solar energy to grow trees and such that can be burned to power
electric generators. Fossil fuel is just wood that has been stored a
very long time before we burn it to release the stored solar power.

It's not a word game. Energy stored in batteries literally is
not solar energy even if electricity generated from solar panels
is used to charge the batteries. If you're going to play THAT
word game, quite literally every energy source in use is stored
solar energy. If that's the game you want to play, hydro power
is stored solar power. Wind power is stored solar power, Energy
from burning any sort of fuel is stored solar power. Muscle power
is stored solar power. Geothermal is stored solar power. Even
nuclear is stored solar power. So if THAT's how you play the
game, every house on the planet is totally solar.

[Dechucka]

Of course solar is the source of power for the batteries. Thanks for a
new but inane argument

>>> Storage batteries = chemical energy -> electrical energy. They don't
>>> postpone the use of solar energy, they use electrical
>>> energy which can be from any source to make a chemical reaction. When
>>> you use a battery, another chemical reaction that results
>>> in the release of electrical energy.  None of those processes
>>> involve solar energy.
>>
>> I'll give it a go and disconnect my solar panels from the batteries
>> and see how long this chemical reaction lasts, actually I know it will
>> be 5 days.
>
> During those five days you will get your electricity from a
> chemical reaction, not from the sun.

A chemical reaction that got it's power from being recharged by the sun

>
>> Than I will recharge them from the sun.
>
> Or you could recharge your batteries from a gas-powered generator,
> or you could hook up a car generator to a windmill and use the wind
> to charge your batteries,

Are wind power is an excellent renewable energy source

> or connect that generator to a stationary
> bicycle and pedal away until your batteries are charged.

My emergency radio works like that

> However
> you charge your batteries, when you draw power from those batteries
> it is not solar power, it is chemical energy.

If you're happy with that inanity so be it

[Dechucka]

On 28/09/2021 4:56 pm, Just Wondering wrote:
> On 9/27/2021 8:30 PM, Bob F wrote:
>> On 9/27/2021 6:17 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>> On 9/27/2021 5:00 PM, Bob F wrote:
>>>> On 9/27/2021 2:12 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night.
>>>>>> Go figure
>>>>>
>>>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>>>
>>>> No, we do not.
>>>> Yes, they can.
>>>
>>> Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
>>> is below the horizon.
>>
>> I don't need to play your word games. The energy is solar, with some
>> stored in batteries for later use. It is not hydro, it is not fossil
>> fuel, it is solar.
>
> You could use excess solar power during the day to pump water into an
> uphill pond and use a water-powered generator at night.

Called pump hydro such a scheme is being built in the Snowys

We can and do
> use solar energy to grow trees and such that can be burned to power
> electric generators.  Fossil fuel is just wood that has been stored a
> very long time before we burn it to release the stored solar power.
>
> It's not a word game.  Energy stored in batteries literally is
> not solar energy even if electricity generated from solar panels
> is used to charge the batteries.  If you're going to play THAT
> word game, quite literally every energy source in use is stored
> solar energy.  If that's the game you want to play, hydro power
> is stored solar power.  Wind power is stored solar power,  Energy
> from burning any sort of fuel is stored solar power.  Muscle power
> is stored solar power.  Geothermal is stored solar power.  Even
> nuclear is stored solar power.  So if THAT's how you play the
> game, every house on the planet is totally solar.

So lets stick to the renewable forms of this solar energy as I'm doing
with my solar powered farm

[Just Wondering]

On 9/27/2021 9:02 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> On 28/09/2021 11:13 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 9/27/2021 4:11 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>> "Just Wondering"  wrote in message
>>> news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1....@fx19.iad...
>>>
>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>
>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
>>>> figure
>>>
>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

>>> "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your
>>> only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to
>>> postpone the use of that electricity.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
>>
>> Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar".  Storage batteries =
>> chemical energy -> electrical energy.  They don't postpone
>> the use of solar energy, they use electrical energy which can
>> be from any source to make a chemical reaction.  When you use
>> a battery, another chemical reaction that results in the release
>> of electrical energy.  None of those processes involve solar
>> energy.
>
> Except for the charging part in my case

It sounds like you use electricity from photovoltaic cells during
the day to charge your batteries. You then use electricity from
discharging your batteries when solar energy is not available.
That latter use is chemical energy, not solar energy.

Read my other posts on this subject. If you want to play the game
of "my batteries are stored solar power", then every bloody energy
source on the planet, from horse-drawn carts to burning wood or
ethanol or coal to wind and hydro power to nuclear power is also
stored solar power.

[Just Wondering]

I'm talking science, you're talking political correctness.

[Trevor Wilson]

On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:

**You have 17th century thinking. The rest of us exist in the 21st century.

[Dechucka]

snip

>> My emergency radio works like that
>>
>>> However you charge your batteries, when you draw power from
>>> those batteries it is not solar power, it is chemical energy.
>>
>> If you're happy with that inanity so be it
>
> I'm talking science, you're talking political correctness.

If you can talk science you'll know all about the GHG properties of
certain molecules, I'm sure you've kept up with the science as it's been
known since the 1800s. You'll also understand that these molecules don't
change their properties from the lab to the atmosphere.
I'll do my bit while at the same time saving money and ensuring
reliability esp during bush-fires and other natural disasters.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Just Wondering" wrote in message news:_1u4J.58228$2Q_3....@fx35.iad...

Then you don't understand the formal logic of scientific modeling. The Black
Box can include internal storage of inputs.

> Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.

That's irrelevant if the source of that energy is solar.

You can call it whatever you please, but these systems are really defined by
the scientists and engineers who design and build them.

Solar panels without either storage or a sink like the grid to receive the
energy are nearly useless, because almost all real-world loads are so
variable.

I've been experimenting with immediate use of solar power in a freezer with
a DC compressor. In the middle of the day solar panel output is enough to
operate the compressor, and the Watt meter on the input to the attached AC
power supply reads zero.

When the compressor is off the solar current diverts to float charging the
freezer's backup battery and topping off other spares. Yesterday I checked
the battery electrolyte and confirmed that the float voltage is enough to
maintain a full charge but below the gassing level. This is how a UPS or
exit light maintains its lead-acid battery, with the disadvantage that after
an outage a full recharge at the float voltage can take a day or more, as
indicated by the trickle charging current.

When solar current isn't enough the compressor draws the rest from the AC
supply, shown by the power division on their Watt meters, or if the grid
fails it draws from the battery.

This meter keeps track of energy into and out of the battery:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32785159924.html
and this one monitors power drawn from the the AC line:
https://www.aliexpress.com/cheap/cheap-pzem-061.html
This PZEM-031 reads DC solar power but it doesn't like the low voltages at
dawn and dusk so I added a relay that protects it from seeing less than 10V:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32413784036.html

That's as close as I get to using all available solar power as it is
produced.

The other application for immediate use of solar power is heating water, but
I keep my low voltage solar circuits as isolated from the grid as possible
for safety. Otherwise it's just a theoretical exercise, not a practical home
power system.

You can't intelligently discuss energy without an understanding of
thermodynamics and energy quality, which concerns how easily it can be
transformed between forms such as the heat of a fire vs electricity or shaft
rotation. Unfortunately the non-technical general public doesn't seem to
appreciate the distinction between a primary source of energy like sunlight
and the secondary means of storing and distributing it, like hydrogen or
electricity.
https://stem.guide/topic/primary-resources-and-secondary-energy/

"Totally Solar" refers to the primary source. Secondary conversions don't
matter.
jsw

[Jim Wilkins]

"Just Wondering" wrote in message news:D6z4J.85358$Dr.5...@fx40.iad...

It sounds like you use electricity from photovoltaic cells during
the day to charge your batteries. You then use electricity from
discharging your batteries when solar energy is not available.
That latter use is chemical energy, not solar energy.

Read my other posts on this subject. If you want to play the game
of "my batteries are stored solar power", then every bloody energy
source on the planet, from horse-drawn carts to burning wood or
ethanol or coal to wind and hydro power to nuclear power is also
stored solar power.

-------------------

Your attempted redefinition of "total solar" would render the term useless.
You are entitled to your opinion, and we to ours.

[Scout]

"Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:situno$el1$1...@dont-email.me...

<Raises Hand>

Can you tell me how you insure that the energy used to produce every
component of the system, including transportation of such, used 100% solar
power?

Are cargo ships from China now equipped with solar powered engines?

Are you aware that the primary source of the overwhelming bulk of solar
equipment is from the biggest source of emissions and pollution on the
planet?

If you're just pushing the pollution to somewhere you don't see it, does
that really change anything?

[Scout]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:sitfja$nb7$1...@dont-email.me...

Average consumption 30 kilowatthours (kWh).

Figure 16 hours of storage as a bare minimum

100Ahr battery = 600 wh

Minimum required 40 batteries.

Cost about $8000 just for the batteries.

Another $14,000 for the solar system

Figure about $15,000 for installation.

More for the lost floor space, or building to hold all this.

And that only gets you through the day. If you don't have 8 hours of full
charge... overcast, raining, snow, etc then your battery capacity
requirements will go up drastically,.

Then we need to calculate the pollution produced for all that hardware, the
regular replacement of the batteries, panels and systems over a lifetime and
then figure out if you're actually cutting emissions... or just spreading it
around.

Seems to me to be a lot of money and issues for a dubious reduction in
pollution.

[Bob F]

The significant issue is that the solar house with batteries is getting
its energy from the sun, not from fossil fuel, reducing it's damage to
the climate from CO2 releases. If it charged the batteries from a coal
power plant, that would not be the case.

A solar heated house stores thermal energy in thermal mass for use
overnight. A solar powered house can similarly store energy in electric
batteries, or flywheels. They are both solar.

But of course, common sense seems to mean nothing to you. You just have
to be "right".

[Bob F]

Name a few power sources that do not have those costs.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Scout" wrote in message news:siv7tl$t50$7...@dont-email.me...

--------------------------

My backup system isn't nearly that large or expensive, and my normal
consumption is under 5KWH per day.

The backup supports a compact refrigerator and small freezer plus one or two
laptops for cellular Internet and antenna television. For meals I run a 2KW
inverter generator, or use the wood stove since most long outages here are
from winter ice storms. Laundry requires a 3KW generator and kick-starting
by releasing the old Maytag's belt tension with my foot on the motor. I
freeze-dry the laundry on an outdoor clothes line, typically within the same
day since winter humidity is very low.

Two fairly new 12V 105Ah marine batteries will run the inverter for at least
24 hours and maybe 48 depending on conditions. The freezer operates on 12V
DC and can go almost 48 hours on the original pair of ~10 year old
batteries, by recent test. The four marine batteries and four 100W panels
averaged $100 apiece and the sine inverter was free, a "dead" high end APC
UPS. Installation is standing the panels on fold-out legs in the yard or
driveway when I need them for an outage, otherwise a row of small flea
market panels on the roof powers the freezer. After measuring power loss I
upgraded the house solar wire to 10 AWG, a significant expense if you buy it
new.

As best I can figure, the cost of battery depreciation if cycled daily
somewhat exceeds the cost of grid power, so I use the system only for backup
to prolong battery life. I ran the numbers for flooded, AGM and Lithium and
flooded won IF maintained, but not if neglected. I pay $0.18688 per grid KWH
and these $100 batteries would cost $0.20 per KWH if they delivered 1 KWH
each, 500 times. They probably wouldn't last that long, 500 cycles is
pushing the claimed performance of AGMs at twice the price and reportedly
half the storage life, so the high end estimate for battery cost ran around
$0.50/KWH, close to using a generator. I get nearly 10 years in storage from
used PowerSonic 12V 18A AGMs if they are topped up regularly, less than 3
years from Rhinos. They are considered dead and recycled when they won't run
the freezer the equivalent of overnight.

If I switched to daily cycling I would buy different batteries because the
flooded ones may gas if charged fast enough, meaning high enough voltage, to
fully recover from a deep discharge during winter daylight. They don't gas
if limited to the float voltage, but they also don't fully recharge in a
day. They do charge to 70~80% before reaching the gassing voltage, which is
enough for me.

Unless more trees die and fall I don't get enough sun on the roof to justify
a larger permanent installation. What I have has let me unplug from the grid
and keep operating as usual when thunderstorms threaten, and stay off it if
they last overnight. I've only needed the generator briefly a few times
during an extended winter blackout. In clear weather 400W (~330W into the
batteries) of solar power recharged the batteries into the acceptance
(declining current) range by 10AM.

-jsw

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob F" wrote in message news:sivg2e$va0$1...@dont-email.me...

The significant issue is that the solar house with batteries is getting
its energy from the sun, not from fossil fuel, reducing it's damage to
the climate from CO2 releases. If it charged the batteries from a coal
power plant, that would not be the case.

A solar heated house stores thermal energy in thermal mass for use
overnight. A solar powered house can similarly store energy in electric
batteries, or flywheels. They are both solar.

But of course, common sense seems to mean nothing to you. You just have
to be "right".

----------------

If the meaning of words matters more than effective actions then "totally
solar" should exclude the conversion from optical to electrical as well as
from electrical to chemical. The system output should be a beam of sunshine.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Scout" wrote in message news:siv7tl$t50$8...@dont-email.me...
....

Are cargo ships from China now equipped with solar powered engines?

....

---------------------

Be careful what you wish for, you may get it and suffer the consequences.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a34272175/wind-powered-sailboat-cargo-shipping-future/

The better wooden sailing ships could do 15 knots, the best over 20.

[Just Wondering]

On 9/28/2021 12:57 AM, Dechucka wrote:

The fact remains, electric power from batteries is not totally solar.

>
>>>> Storage batteries = chemical energy -> electrical energy. They don't
>>>> postpone the use of solar energy, they use electrical
>>>> energy which can be from any source to make a chemical reaction.
>>>> When you use a battery, another chemical reaction that results
>>>> in the release of electrical energy.  None of those processes
>>>> involve solar energy.
>>>
>>> I'll give it a go and disconnect my solar panels from the batteries
>>> and see how long this chemical reaction lasts, actually I know it
>>> will be 5 days.
>>
>> During those five days you will get your electricity from a
>> chemical reaction, not from the sun.
>
> A chemical reaction that got it's power from being recharged by the sun

A chemical reaction that is not totally solar.

>>
>>> Than I will recharge them from the sun.
>>
>> Or you could recharge your batteries from a gas-powered generator,
>> or you could hook up a car generator to a windmill and use the wind
>> to charge your batteries,
>
> Are wind power is an excellent renewable energy source

Do you agree that wind power is solar power just as much as
is battery power?

>
>> or connect that generator to a stationary
>> bicycle and pedal away until your batteries are charged.
>
> My emergency radio works like that

Do you agree that a electricity from a human-powered generator
is just as much solar power as is battery power?

>> However you charge your batteries, when you draw power from
>> those batteries it is not solar power, it is chemical energy.
>
> If you're happy with that inanity so be it

I acknowledge the science. So you think science is inane. Got it.

[Just Wondering]

On 9/28/2021 1:01 AM, Dechucka wrote:
> On 28/09/2021 4:56 pm, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 9/27/2021 8:30 PM, Bob F wrote:
>>> On 9/27/2021 6:17 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>>> On 9/27/2021 5:00 PM, Bob F wrote:
>>>>> On 9/27/2021 2:12 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night.
>>>>>>> Go figure
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>>>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, we do not.
>>>>> Yes, they can.
>>>>
>>>> Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
>>>> is below the horizon.
>>>
>>> I don't need to play your word games. The energy is solar, with some
>>> stored in batteries for later use. It is not hydro, it is not fossil
>>> fuel, it is solar.
>>
>> You could use excess solar power during the day to pump water into an
>> uphill pond and use a water-powered generator at night.
>
> Called pump hydro such a scheme is being built in the Snowys

If battery power is solar power, so is hydro power. But neither
is what people mean when they say "solar power".

>
> We can and do
>> use solar energy to grow trees and such that can be burned to power
>> electric generators.  Fossil fuel is just wood that has been stored a
>> very long time before we burn it to release the stored solar power.
>>
>> It's not a word game.  Energy stored in batteries literally is
>> not solar energy even if electricity generated from solar panels
>> is used to charge the batteries.  If you're going to play THAT
>> word game, quite literally every energy source in use is stored
>> solar energy.  If that's the game you want to play, hydro power
>> is stored solar power.  Wind power is stored solar power,  Energy
>> from burning any sort of fuel is stored solar power.  Muscle power
>> is stored solar power.  Geothermal is stored solar power.  Even
>> nuclear is stored solar power.  So if THAT's how you play the
>> game, every house on the planet is totally solar.
>
> So lets stick to the renewable forms of this solar energy as
> I'm doing with my solar powered farm

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/52/80/bd/5280bd3bc8a37b76d62e6a3aec037fc7.jpg

[Dechucka]

snip

>> If you're happy with that inanity so be it
>
> I acknowledge the science.  So you think science is inane.  Got it.

If aknowledge science you'll know all about the GHG properties of

[Dechucka]

snip

> If battery power is solar power, so is hydro power.  But neither
> is what people mean when they say "solar power".

So you know what is meant and I know what is meant so why your inane
arguing?

[Just Wondering]

If that's your position, then ALL energy on the planet is solar
power. Wind turbines? Secondary conversion of solar energy.
Hydroelectric generators? Secondary conversion of solar energy.
The same is true with combustion of fuel - ANY fuel. The same
for tidal energy, using oxen to plow a field, slaves to pick
cotton, even nuclear fission plants. All are secondary conversions
of energy where solar energy is the primary source.

[Just Wondering]

On 9/28/2021 7:36 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Right back at you. Your own definition of solar power makes
the whole conversation useless. Accepting your definition from
another post, if a "secondary conversion" of solar energy as a
primary source is still solar energy, then there is NO energy
source on the planet that is not solar energy.

[Just Wondering]

Fossil fuels, and non-fossil combustible fuels (wood, ethanol, etc.)
also get their energy from the sun. If battery chemical energy is
solar energy, so is combustion energy.

But the significant issue is Chuckie's dual claims, that "my
house is totally solar" and also "I have power at night". The
only way you can make both statements true is by a definition
of solar energy that logically extends to every form of energy
on the planet - which makes the definition useless.

>
> A solar heated house stores thermal energy in thermal mass for use
> overnight. A solar powered house can similarly store energy in electric
> batteries, or flywheels. They are both solar.
>
> But of course, common sense seems to mean nothing to you. You
> just have to be "right".

Common sense says that batteries are not solar energy even if
you use a photovoltaic cell to charge them. Common sense says
that if you're going to call a battery solar energy, then you
can just as well call wind power or burning weed solar energy too.

[Scout]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:sivm81$i3s$1...@dont-email.me...

Typical container ship 20-25 knots... in all weather, in all conditions.

It would be nice to go back to sail, but it would take many years to make
the change over, and even then only some cargos would benefit from it.

A little disruption in the supply chain, coupled with "just in time"
inventory control means serious issues unless we undo much of what's been
done to streamline and economize industry to reduce costs.

[Scout]

"Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:sivg61$va0$2...@dont-email.me...

So solving the pollution isn't what you're after... just moving it somewhere
else.... got it.

[Scout]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:sivlag$aq4$1...@dont-email.me...

Ok, so first off we're going to have to eliminate a lot of stuff that's now
required for modern homes.

> The backup supports a compact refrigerator and small freezer plus one or
> two laptops for cellular Internet and antenna television. For meals I run
> a 2KW inverter generator, or use the wood stove since most long outages
> here are from winter ice storms. Laundry requires a 3KW generator and
> kick-starting by releasing the old Maytag's belt tension with my foot on
> the motor. I freeze-dry the laundry on an outdoor clothes line, typically
> within the same day since winter humidity is very low.

<yawn> do you really expect people to make this change?

Could you imagine a modern city with virtually everyone using wood for
heating in the winter?

Talk about pollution.

Meanwhile, it seems clear that if the sun doesn't come out.... your
semi-modern lifestyle comes to an end... or you fire up that extremely
polluting fossil fuel generator to help you over the hump.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing the workable solution that will be accepted by
people who want nothing less than 3000 square foot homes and push button
connivance for everything.

I grew up in a home heated exclusively by wood, and let me tell you there
were some COLD mornings, and getting up in the middle of the night,
nevermind all the work over the summer putting up enough wood, which again
city dwellers wouldn't have.

So, while you have a 'solution' that works for you because you're willing to
cut a lot of corners, and do the extra work, I'm still not sure if I'm
seeing an overall improvement in the amount of pollution being produced, and
certainly not something that I see 330 Million Americans who will be be
willing to do that and live like that.

[Just Wondering]

On 9/28/2021 2:43 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> snip
>
>>> If you're happy with that inanity so be it
>>
>> I acknowledge the science.  So you think science is inane.  Got it.
>
> If aknowledge science you'll know all about the GHG properties of
> certain molecules

What's under discussion is your mutually exclusive assertions that

[Just Wondering]

What you mean is that battery power is solar power. What I mean
is that it is not. What I mean is science. What you mean requires
that you ignore science.

[Dechucka]

On 29/09/2021 7:03 am, Just Wondering wrote:
> On 9/28/2021 2:44 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>> snip
>>
>>> If battery power is solar power, so is hydro power.  But neither
>>> is what people mean when they say "solar power".
>>
>> So you know what is meant and I know what is meant so why your inane
>> arguing?
>
> What you mean is that battery power is solar power.  What I mean
> is that it is not.  What I mean is science.

I'm sure you've kept up with the science as it's been known since the
1800s. You'll also understand that these molecules don't change their
properties from the lab to the atmosphere.
I'll do my bit while at the same time saving money and ensuring
reliability esp during bush-fires and other natural disasters

> What you mean requires
> that you ignore science.

So you're happy playing words games. I'm happy reducing GHG production

[Jim Wilkins]

"Scout" wrote in message news:sivvh6$r3f$3...@dont-email.me...

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message

...

<yawn> do you really expect people to make this change?

--------------------

Not at all, but I hope they understand the personal consequences of what
they demand of others

[Just Wondering]

You're happy trying to change the subject when you can't refute
me on the facts.

[Dechucka]

snip

>> So you're happy playing words games. I'm happy reducing GHG production
>
> You're happy trying to change the subject when you can't refute
> me on the facts.

I'm happy that I'm reducing my reliance on fossil fuel. As I know it's
been known since the 1800s that certain molecules are GHGs. I also

[Scout]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:sj00nr$4jd$1...@dont-email.me...

What personal consequences?

Do what they want to do, how they want to do it?

Yea, that's gotta be a bummer

[Jim Wilkins]

"Scout" wrote in message news:sj1olo$uka$1...@dont-email.me...

---------------------

California leads the way with high time-of-use electric rates and outages.

[Bob F]

If you don't include Texas.

[cshenk]

Dechucka wrote:

> On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
> > On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> > > On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
> > > > When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
> > >
> > > Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night.
> > > Go figure
> >
> > We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
> > power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>

> That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
> achieved.

Easy, big backup power and located where sun is the norm, clouds and
rain not much so.

PS: testing the waters with an older 2021 post.

[Jim Wilkins]

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:QemcnYnT1KJXvwH4...@giganews.com...

-------------------------
JW was playing a lawyer's word game with what "solar" means, discounting
solar-derived electricity stored chemically in batteries, until I pointed
out that his strict literal definition would also require solar energy to be
stored and used as photons instead of converted to electricity.

[cshenk]

LOL! Anyway, I opted to not have battery backup at my place. Power
outages are rare and seldom more than an hour.

[Scout]

"cshenk" <csh...@virginia-beach.net> wrote in message
news:QemcnYnT1KJXvwH4...@giganews.com...

> Dechucka wrote:
>
>> On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>> > On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>> > > On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>> > > > When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>> > >
>> > > Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night.
>> > > Go figure
>> >
>> > We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>> > power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>
>> That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
>> achieved.
>
> Easy, big backup power

Ok.. and how much are you going to spend on getting and maintaining such a
system?

How large will it need to be to charge your EV each day as well?

So now you're effectively paying twice as much for electricity.. what was
the benefit again?

[Just Wondering]

If you want to be pedantic, all power is ultimately gravity power.
I was going to say all power is ultimately solar, but even the
fusion that powers stars (and creates the radioactive metals used
in nuclear power) is the result of gravity compressing the star's
contents. But that's not what anybody normally means when talking
about solar.

[Just Wondering]

On 1/8/2024 11:20 AM, cshenk wrote:
>
> ... I opted to not have battery backup at my place. Power

> outages are rare and seldom more than an hour.
>

Certainly, until that's no longer true. It's like saying "I opted
not to have a fire extinguisher at home. Home fires are rare and
are seldom catastrophic." It's like saying "I don't have car
liability insurance. I don't get in accidents, and if I did they
would be minor ones and not my fault." It's like saying "I don't
have any food storage. Food shortages at my local grocery are rare
and seldom last long." No, you don't need an alternate home power
source, or a fire extinguisher, or liability insurance, or food storage,
or take any other risk-avoidance or emergency prepared measures.
Until you do, and if you don't have it by then it will be too late.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Scout" wrote in message news:unhfak$1koaa$2...@dont-email.me...

Ok.. and how much are you going to spend on getting and maintaining such a
system?

How large will it need to be to charge your EV each day as well?

So now you're effectively paying twice as much for electricity.. what was
the benefit again?

---------------------------------

The break-even point to operate my system is between $0.20 and $0.30 per
KWH, depending on claimed vs realized battery life, which in turn depends on
how much I can squeeze from them with monitoring and careful maintenance.
Lead-acids have lasted me up to 15 years. It will never repay its capital
cost (which was less than a riding mower) but neither will a backup
generator, they are for independent reliability rather than economics.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Just Wondering" wrote in message news:z2ZmN.171077$7sbb....@fx16.iad...

If you want to be pedantic, all power is ultimately gravity power.
I was going to say all power is ultimately solar, but even the
fusion that powers stars (and creates the radioactive metals used
in nuclear power) is the result of gravity compressing the star's
contents. But that's not what anybody normally means when talking
about solar.

--------------------------

I firmly do NOT want to be pedantic, it hinders analyzing and solving
problems. Although I have a science degree that covered Thermodynamics and
several years of Physics I "gravitated' to practical engineering, expanding
the scribbled dreams of Ph.D. theoreticians into fleshed-out designs,
building them and making them work. Do you remember me as j...@mitre.org?

[Jim Wilkins]

"Just Wondering" wrote in message news:z2ZmN.171077$7sbb....@fx16.iad...

If you want to be pedantic, all power is ultimately gravity power.
I was going to say all power is ultimately solar, but even the
fusion that powers stars (and creates the radioactive metals used
in nuclear power) is the result of gravity compressing the star's
contents. But that's not what anybody normally means when talking
about solar.

----------------------

Not so.
https://phys.libretexts.org/Courses/HACC_Central_Pennsylvania%27s_Community_College/Astronomy_103%3A_Introduction_to_Planetary_Astronomy/13%3A_The_Sun/13.04%3A_Nuclear_Fusion

Gravity is an enabler to overcome electrostatic repulsion, but not a sine
qua non for fusion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon

Iron and nickel are the end products of fusion, beyond them it becomes
endothermic. The heavier elements are formed by neutron capture in
supernovae, neutron stars and nuclear reactors.
https://www.astronomy.com/science/ask-astro-how-do-stars-make-elements-heavier-than-iron/

[Jim Wilkins]

"Just Wondering" wrote in message news:0aZmN.95241$q3F7....@fx45.iad...

------------------------------

Covid showed that we should increase our food storage, so I added a 12V DC
fridge+freezer that runs on solar/battery/grid/generator power, an Alpicool
T60. Ice and wind storm power outages here have lasted over a week.

[cshenk]

Happy dance! There are people here! I know it's hard to get new
members who have a grain of sanity. alt.solar seems dead and at least
alternative energy is a good fit here!

On the battery part, I'll simply be in the same boat as others.

In a perfect world, my solar would produce all my needs and have enough
left over for an EV car or two. It doesn't due to blocked areas or
wrong slope on parts of the roof. I'm at 92% of my needs. Frankly
laying out 40k worth of lithium batteries for my house, isn't passing
any sanity/fiscal tests.

Carol

[cshenk]

Jim Wilkins wrote:

> "Just Wondering" wrote in message
> news:0aZmN.95241$q3F7....@fx45.iad...
>
> On 1/8/2024 11:20 AM, cshenk wrote:
> >
> > ... I opted to not have battery backup at my place. Power
> > outages are rare and seldom more than an hour.
> >
> Certainly, until that's no longer true. It's like saying "I opted
> not to have a fire extinguisher at home. Home fires are rare and

> are seldom catastrophic." (snips)

>
> ------------------------------
>
> Covid showed that we should increase our food storage, so I added a
> 12V DC fridge+freezer that runs on solar/battery/grid/generator
> power, an Alpicool T60. Ice and wind storm power outages here have
> lasted over a week.

Mom was divorced and Dad didn't pay the 51$ child support. She always
put a bit of shelf stable foods aside, having been raised in the
depression then the WWII years of rationing. I've always done that
too. We were fine. It helped a LOT that I'm a scratch cook.

She did a fine job raising us 3. None of us experienced more than a
slight frown if we had to swap a planned dish over lack of supplies
during the covid hoarding.

The money just wasn't there to go backups but after I pay off the last
of the solar, I'll look at 1 battery to add to it.

[Jim Wilkins]

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:Gx-cnQxsw_2RLAH4...@giganews.com...

Jim Wilkins wrote:

> "Just Wondering" wrote in message
> news:0aZmN.95241$q3F7....@fx45.iad...

> ...

The money just wasn't there to go backups but after I pay off the last
of the solar, I'll look at 1 battery to add to it.

----------------------
If you have commercially installed grid-tied solar adding a battery may not
be possible and would be no help during an outage, since the controller
shuts down when grid power fails, to prevent back-feeding that could shock
line workers. The grid serves as your storage, with any excess of your
output over your consumption recorded by the two-way electric meter.

The simple and safe, though not cheapest, backup is a packaged power station
such as a Jackery. If you are experienced in the design and construction of
electrical equipment a comparable system can be assembled from
single-purpose modules for about half or less the cost.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BX8S2VJ5/ref=nav_signin?sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9ocXBfc2hhcmVk&th=1
https://www.bestekdirect.com/bestek-500W-power-inverter

[Scout]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:unhung$1mvqc$1...@dont-email.me...

> "Scout" wrote in message news:unhfak$1koaa$2...@dont-email.me...
>
> Ok.. and how much are you going to spend on getting and maintaining such a
> system?
>
> How large will it need to be to charge your EV each day as well?
>
> So now you're effectively paying twice as much for electricity.. what was
> the benefit again?
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> The break-even point to operate my system is between $0.20 and $0.30 per
> KWH, depending on claimed vs realized battery life, which in turn depends
> on how much I can squeeze from them with monitoring and careful
> maintenance.

Given in most areas rates are far below that. I think I'm paying $0.135 per
kWhr right now.

It would take a rather large increase in rates to even make such a system
viable, assuming your assumptions work out.

You could also take a bath if a hail storm comes through 3 years later and
wipes out 90% of your panels.. How long would it then take to even think of
breaking even?

> Lead-acids have lasted me up to 15 years. It will never repay its capital
> cost (which was less than a riding mower) but neither will a backup
> generator, they are for independent reliability rather than economics.

Yes, but I can get a backup generator for a small fraction of the cost of a
solar system, and have much greater reliability when I need it. Since all I
really have to buy is a the generator head, and a few bits to adapt it to my
tractor and safe guard my tractor for unmonitored use (low oil pressure and
high temperature shut off primarily). I think the cost when I got it was
$600 for a 10kW unit delivered. Some welding, a bit of scrap mental, and
maybe about $150 in drive shaft, sprockets, chain, bearings and such.
Best part is the whole thing is totally portable and I can now have serious
electric power anywhere I need. Let's me use a small light cheap electric
chain saw instead of a much heavier and more expensive conventional one for
cutting brush and small trees when clearing fence lines and such. Need to
build something I can now have power on site without having the expense or
delay of trying to get in a temporary power hookup.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Scout" wrote in message news:unjgg0$20t0h$1...@dont-email.me...

---------------------------------

The rate here is presently $0.22 / KWH and was $0.33 during the previous
billing cycle. A rough measurement of electricity vs gasoline for my small
inverter generator showed nearly $1 per KWH.

The worst case I plan for is a blizzard with ice forming on everything,
which limits outdoor generator use because I don't have a fireproof covered
but ventilated space for one away from the house, and may not be able to get
to it without risking a fall, at my age a serious consideration. Clearing
the path to the woodshed can be slow and difficult enough. I don't
completely trust rubber fuel lines not to crack and leak, or carb float
valves not to stick and flood the ground.

I gassed the motorcycle at a station I'd never used before, and when I
stopped at work smelled gas; the carbs were overflowing. The gas had been
wet and picked up rust which condensed out into balls like kidney stones in
the engine-warmed carburetors and blocked the float valves from closing. I
had to disassemble and clean the four carbs on my lab bench.

I saved a failed alternator to rebuild and connect to the PTO on my tractor
to have battery 12V for the winch and inverter 120V for tools. I haven't
bothered to do it because the only remote power I've needed was compressed
air at the sawmill, from a long hose back to the house. The trees here are
mature oaks, much too big for an electric chainsaw. A 20" bar is barely
enough.

[cshenk]

One of the troubles here that I have, is not a 'bad one' to have. My
science background is primarily 'biology realm' with some chemistry
allowed to lay fallow after my attempt to put myself through college.
I'm probably 'undereducated' by the standards of some here for the
types of knowledge background.

Grin, should be fun to drop a 'silly Sally' into the mix! My skills
are SQL programming, Navy Education and Training, heavy 'Data analysis'
and directing slim resources for maximum benefit to force generation
(getting the right trained sailor to the right ship when needed).

Spent some time post 26year Navy career (E8) in contracting services
and Mitre rings a bell though I never worked for them. I was mostly
CSC then moved to GS-13(NETC then NAVIFOR).

[cshenk]

Easy Scout! I said that was the answer to the setup parameters of the
question. You change it here to a 'bang for the buck' problem but the
2 are distinctly different problems.

If you want to change to 'best bang for the buck with profits soon',
then you have to add in local factors and cost analysis. I'm game but
don't try to swap back and forth between them ok?

Simple answer to 'bang for the buck' with or without home battery
system is 'rarely worth it unless thinking small'. If the grid power
after sundown is 'peak hourly rate', a smaller battery of 4-6kWh may
pay off as in theory, you'll now only draw from the grid at the lowest
rate. Check your company though as some charge lowest rate it you meet
or exceed a set amount of solar production vs use. I don't have much
detail on that other than my grid power costs more from 4pm-9pm and I
pay that.

To cover a week's backup power, you have to overgenerate to your usage
and then the battery costs will normally equal the cost of the panels.
This doubles your 'payoff to profit time'. For most people, this is
where solar 'fails' the budget model. Without the battery, or a small
one to deal with minor nuisance outages, it may work. Small ones only
cover a few hours. Layman's terms: You get what you pay for but best
not buy more than you need.

[Jim Wilkins]

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:S_WdnbFYGq2w_AD4...@giganews.com...

One of the troubles here that I have, is not a 'bad one' to have. My
science background is primarily 'biology realm' with some chemistry
allowed to lay fallow after my attempt to put myself through college.
I'm probably 'undereducated' by the standards of some here for the
types of knowledge background.

Grin, should be fun to drop a 'silly Sally' into the mix! My skills
are SQL programming, Navy Education and Training, heavy 'Data analysis'
and directing slim resources for maximum benefit to force generation
(getting the right trained sailor to the right ship when needed).

Spent some time post 26year Navy career (E8) in contracting services
and Mitre rings a bell though I never worked for them. I was mostly
CSC then moved to GS-13(NETC then NAVIFOR).

------------------------
Mitre worked more with the Air Force, FAA et al. It was structured as a
private non-profit so we didn't have GS grades, or much bureaucratic
interference.

That's a pretty solid resume. I benefitted from someone getting the right
trained soldier to where he was needed. I had listed French and German on
the "dream sheet" requesting an assignment and was sent to Germany instead
of Vietnam. I loved being there and driving around the countryside between
our field communications sites but many Americans didn't, to the extent of
reenlisting to go back to Saigon. In rural areas they didn't speak English
and hadn't been contaminated by us.

I was a hardware guy with programming experience mainly limited to low level
machine control. Being cooped up alone in the lab like Drosselmeyer the
toymaker definitely isn't for everyone. Dan Aykroyd's character in Spies
Like Us was close to my reality. His office was in the boiler room, mine was
beside it, and like him I know a little Russian and KGB = Komitet
Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosti.

[Just Wondering]

OK. "I don't have it yet because I can't afford it yet"
is different from "I opted not to."

[Jim Wilkins]

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:m0adnRyp3bW28AD4...@giganews.com...

Scout wrote:

> So now you're effectively paying twice as much for electricity.. what
> was the benefit again?

Easy Scout! I said that was the answer to the setup parameters of the
question. You change it here to a 'bang for the buck' problem but the
2 are distinctly different problems.

If you want to change to 'best bang for the buck with profits soon',
then you have to add in local factors and cost analysis. I'm game but
don't try to swap back and forth between them ok?

Simple answer to 'bang for the buck' with or without home battery
system is 'rarely worth it unless thinking small'. If the grid power
after sundown is 'peak hourly rate', a smaller battery of 4-6kWh may
pay off as in theory, you'll now only draw from the grid at the lowest
rate. Check your company though as some charge lowest rate it you meet
or exceed a set amount of solar production vs use. I don't have much
detail on that other than my grid power costs more from 4pm-9pm and I
pay that.

To cover a week's backup power, you have to overgenerate to your usage
and then the battery costs will normally equal the cost of the panels.
This doubles your 'payoff to profit time'. For most people, this is
where solar 'fails' the budget model. Without the battery, or a small
one to deal with minor nuisance outages, it may work. Small ones only
cover a few hours. Layman's terms: You get what you pay for but best
not buy more than you need.

-------------------------------

Good analysis. I decided that the course was to instrument and record my
usage, then trim what wasn't necessary, and finally size a solar system with
backup to the fraction of it that would protect refrigerated food for at
least a few days of a storm that kept me indoors, unable to buy more or cook
with electricity. I view it as an insurance policy that I may not want to
collect on instead of an investment with hope a dividend.

Trimming didn't mean giving up, I put always-on things like the TV antenna
distribution amp on switches.

As part of the process I found a way to take a shower with water heated in
kettles on the wood stove. Replace the spray wand of a garden sprayer with a
sink spray hose. 3/8" plastic tubing fit and sealed in the wand fitting of
the sprayers I tried, and adapts to the sink spray thread. The hot water
needs to be tempered to comfortable (115F) before pouring it into the
sprayer, it's too difficult within it. I can take a Navy shower on one 2
gallon sprayer but fill two just in case. Sprayers larger than 2 gallons may
be difficult to handle with slippery footing.

The sink spray hose is long enough if you sit on a plastic stool to wash and
put the sprayer up on the stool to rinse.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:unk0l8$23d7c$1...@dont-email.me...

>Replace the spray wand of a garden sprayer with a sink spray hose.

-------------------------------------------
I think the Danco black braided hoses are worth their higher price for their
better flexibility: The adapter is 1/4" NPT to 3/8" compression, plus a
plastic ferrule to replace the included brass one. The hose end is NPS,
straight thread that seals with a washer but it fits NPT tapered pipe
threads.

https://www.buyfittingsonline.com/pages/npt-vs-nps-vs-nptf-thread-connections-the-difference.html

For tubing the nominal size equals measured outer diameter. For pipe the
nominal size won't be measured anywhere, it's a relic of pipe made from
weaker wrought iron with thicker walls. Lamp fittings, electrical conduit
and chain link fence posts are all based on pipe sizes so their dimensions
aren't common fractions.

I was in line at an industrial supply house behind an inventor who was
picking up a 2" inside diameter thrust bearing he had ordered to go on 2"
water pipe, for a tracking solar array. He was very upset to discover that
2" pipe is actually 2-3/8" outside diameter.

[cshenk]

Jim Wilkins wrote:

> "cshenk" wrote in message
> news:Gx-cnQxsw_2RLAH4...@giganews.com...
>
> Jim Wilkins wrote:
>
> > "Just Wondering" wrote in message
> > news:0aZmN.95241$q3F7....@fx45.iad...
> > ...
>
> The money just wasn't there to go backups but after I pay off the last
> of the solar, I'll look at 1 battery to add to it.
>
> ----------------------
> If you have commercially installed grid-tied solar adding a battery
> may not be possible and would be no help during an outage, since the
> controller shuts down when grid power fails, to prevent back-feeding
> that could shock line workers. The grid serves as your storage, with
> any excess of your output over your consumption recorded by the
> two-way electric meter.

Yes, that's my setup. Transfer to/from grid is 1:1 kWh locked in by
power company for life. Big drive in VA to go solar or 'other'
statewide. Our last 3 coal stations go offline within 3 years (one a
year). There are 2 others privately owned smaller coal stations just
for running internal industrial uses and I'm not sure what those
companies may plan.

The majority of the state grid is 'green' energy in a mix-n-match
pattern of nuclear, solar, wind, and I think hydroelectric. Main
problems here are same as other states. They all relate to grid power
and EV charging.

The EV charging is pretty bad unless you can do it from home generated
excess. Some wise-ass said I was wrong on that as 260 EV statitions
show but they were not aware that fully 50% of those are private
company owned for their own delivery vehicles. 120 stations left (all
but 40 are in awkward use areas like paid tourist parking garages or
airport). Effectively that means 40 to support a population of 1.7m in
Hampton roads.

I know Rome wasn't built in a day but only a fool would not add that
into their EV data when considering purshase of an EV here.

> The simple and safe, though not cheapest, backup is a packaged power
> station such as a Jackery. If you are experienced in the design and
> construction of electrical equipment a comparable system can be
> assembled from single-purpose modules for about half or less the
> cost.
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BX8S2VJ5/ref=nav_signin?sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmF
> tZT1zcF9ocXBfc2hhcmVk&th=1
> https://www.bestekdirect.com/bestek-500W-power-inverter

Perfect! I was about to ask for thoughts on the Jackery setups. On
paper 1 3 panel solar and 2 portable jackery batteries could seemingly
do a lot during a grid outage. As you say above, grid-down for me
means no power until the grid is up.

Amazon has the system (1 battery so would want a spare) for just under
500$ USD. In an outage, I could burst cool the chest freezer and use
the other for a DVD player and TV plus USB charging.

With no cut-out switch, during a grid outage that jackery plus a
gas/kerosine old style generator would be it.

[cshenk]

Just Wondering wrote:

> On 1/8/2024 7:35 PM, cshenk wrote:
> > Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >
> > > "Just Wondering" wrote in message
> > > news:0aZmN.95241$q3F7....@fx45.iad...
> > >
> > > On 1/8/2024 11:20 AM, cshenk wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ... I opted to not have battery backup at my place. Power
> > > > outages are rare and seldom more than an hour.
> >

> > The money just wasn't there to go backups but after I pay off the
> > last of the solar, I'll look at 1 battery to add to it.
> >

(snips)

> OK. "I don't have it yet because I can't afford it yet"
> is different from "I opted not to."

Don't be so tied to battery backups. It's not a 'can't afford it yet'
in the way you seem to be pushing. It's 'may add a 4-6 hour unit' to
prevent higher peak hour consumption rates'. With no cut-out switch,
it's only usable when grid is up. The potential jackery backup is for
use during grid down times for basic comfort.

You seem to address this from 'desirement'. This is very different
from my point view which is 'requirement' based.

The math doesn't work out here on 'bang for the buck'. You did catch
that I only produce 92% of my annual needs' right? A honkin' big
backup battery setup would not only never fill, some of it would be
lost whereas I am protected from any loss as it is as that storage is
nown the problem of the grid. I get all of it back with no loss.

[cshenk]

Jim Wilkins wrote:

> "cshenk" wrote in message
> news:S_WdnbFYGq2w_AD4...@giganews.com...
>
> One of the troubles here that I have, is not a 'bad one' to have. My
> science background is primarily 'biology realm' with some chemistry
> allowed to lay fallow after my attempt to put myself through college.
> I'm probably 'undereducated' by the standards of some here for the
> types of knowledge background.
>
> Grin, should be fun to drop a 'silly Sally' into the mix! My skills
> are SQL programming, Navy Education and Training, heavy 'Data
> analysis' and directing slim resources for maximum benefit to force
> generation (getting the right trained sailor to the right ship when
> needed).
>
> Spent some time post 26year Navy career (E8) in contracting services
> and Mitre rings a bell though I never worked for them. I was mostly
> CSC then moved to GS-13(NETC then NAVIFOR).
>
> ------------------------
> Mitre worked more with the Air Force, FAA et al. It was structured
> as a private non-profit so we didn't have GS grades, or much
> bureaucratic interference.

I did a lot of work as active duty Navy, with all DOD branches. Don't
worry on GS grades, that doesn't apply to contractors. (for the rest,
'Government Civilian' is GS. Large percentage of them are retired
military veterans on second careers. GS13 is equal to Army Major or
Navy LT CDR but on the civilian counterpart). I retired from GS work
after 5 years and 4 months. I get a small monthly pension from them
for life and have a sizable TSP account as well.

> That's a pretty solid resume. I benefitted from someone getting the
> right trained soldier to where he was needed. I had listed French and
> German on the "dream sheet" requesting an assignment and was sent to
> Germany instead of Vietnam. I loved being there and driving around
> the countryside between our field communications sites but many
> Americans didn't, to the extent of reenlisting to go back to Saigon.
> In rural areas they didn't speak English and hadn't been contaminated
> by us.

Grin! My dream sheet said 'any ship overseas, any shore overseas, then
any east coast or west coast. Of course the Navy sent me to San
Antonio TX, AF Manpower Personnel Center, then next to Camp Smith
(marines/Army) at IPAC Hawaii. I didnt get to serve with the Navy
until I was 6 years in and that was as an instructor for basic entry
skills training in the computer rating (mos for you). Then I finally
got my dream ship at the 12 year mark and the rest was all sea except
for 4.5 years of it. Had a blast!

> I was a hardware guy with programming experience mainly limited to
> low level machine control. Being cooped up alone in the lab like
> Drosselmeyer the toymaker definitely isn't for everyone. Dan
> Aykroyd's character in Spies Like Us was close to my reality. His
> office was in the boiler room, mine was beside it, and like him I
> know a little Russian and KGB = Komitet Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosti.

Snicker! Had 'one of those' too most of my career.

Anyways, my uniform was cuter! Dixie cups suit me! Also got to wear
blue jeans at work until I made E7.

[cshenk]

Scout wrote:

>
>
>
> You could also take a bath if a hail storm comes through 3 years
> later and wipes out 90% of your panels.. How long would it then take
> to even think of breaking even?

Hi Scout. You might want to look up newer stats. Thats the old China
panels. Mine are the newer USA/Canada type. (every part of my system
is USA;/Canada made per the documents for it). They rate significantly
higher for hail and wind. I'm actually warrenteed for 25 years against
both hazards. Homeowner policy covers the gaps for install.

[Jim Wilkins]

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:4cucnah3_8rNJgP4...@giganews.com...

Jim Wilkins wrote:
> The simple and safe, though not cheapest, backup is a packaged power
> station such as a Jackery.

Perfect! I was about to ask for thoughts on the Jackery setups.

-------------------------
I like the concept more than the price. But my version isn't portable. They
ask $1099 for 1 KWH of capacity, I have nominally 1.2 KWH for $100, readily
expandable, and perhaps another hundred or so for the solar controller and
inverter etc bought separately. A Lithium Iron Phosphate battery of that
capacity costs under $300. The disadvantage of my approach is needing my
industrial electrician experience to safely wire them together and metal
fabrication equipment to enclose the bare circuit boards, circuit breakers
and high current connections.

I designed and built custom industrial test equipment and was the battery
tech at Segway. Lithiums can be left at any charge level without (much)
concern, like a gas tank. They have internal controls that disconnect the
output if the charge level approaches too high or too low or the current is
excessive. According to their Chat a Jackery can display remaining capacity.

Lead-acids want to remain fully charged as much as possible. I can't get a
manufacturer to quote numbers but I think a few days to a week discharged
may be harmful, like your blood sugar level. Reportedly the discharge
products recrystallize into a less reactive form, called "sulfation", though
some disagree. On the plus side their voltage drops as they discharge so a
simple voltmeter indicates (hints at) remaining capacity.

The implication is that solar power with cheaper flooded lead-acids needs to
be recharged daily for longest cycle life. In a stretch of bad weather they
need to be disconnected from the load and receive at least a trickle charge
from the grid, which means you have to watch tomorrow's weather forecast and
hope it's correct. Sealed lead-acids, also called AGM or VRLA, may or may
not perform better enough to justify their added cost. I'm still looking at
this. They can be bought prepackaged into car jump starters, some with 120V
AC outlets.

This is the go-to tool to measure the electricity consumption of your
plugged-in appliances:
https://www.harborfreight.com/kill-a-watt-electric-monitor-93519.html
They can tell you how much backup capacity you actually need.
Watts is the rate of consumption, like how fast you are driving. Watt- or
Kilowatt-Hours is the total (Integral) of consumption, like how far you've
driven. It's the measure of battery energy storage capacity, Volts x Amps x
Time.

[Jim Wilkins]

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:f8KdnXJdAcArXQP4...@giganews.com...

Don't be so tied to battery backups. It's not a 'can't afford it yet'
in the way you seem to be pushing. It's 'may add a 4-6 hour unit' to
prevent higher peak hour consumption rates'. With no cut-out switch,
it's only usable when grid is up. The potential jackery backup is for
use during grid down times for basic comfort.

You seem to address this from 'desirement'. This is very different
from my point view which is 'requirement' based.

The math doesn't work out here on 'bang for the buck'. You did catch
that I only produce 92% of my annual needs' right? A honkin' big
backup battery setup would not only never fill, some of it would be
lost whereas I am protected from any loss as it is as that storage is
nown the problem of the grid. I get all of it back with no loss.

---------------------------

I didn't check the details, but this is a very competitive price per KWH and
hopefully a good sign of a continuing downward trend.
https://sungoldpower.com/collections/new-years-sale/products/5-12kwh-powerwall-lifepo4-lithium-battery-sg48100m

Being LiFePO4 it doesn't ever need to fill, the suggested charge level for
maximum life is 60-80%. It or similar could be charged from 120VAC when your
rate is low and used when it's high, or saved for outages, avoiding the
expense of new panels and their installation and wiring.

However the IRS apparently doesn't allow a Form 5695 deduction for batteries
not exclusively charged by alternate energy. I arranged my system so only
the batteries for daily cycling I bought used at a flea market and didn't
claim are charged with a prioritized mix of solar then grid when solar
output is low or uncertain. In clear weather I switch the grid input off and
discharge the battery overnight. The batteries bought new and claimed are
separately solar charged in clear weather and saved for outage backup.

The most common use of the system is to go on battery when a night squall
line or thunderstorm is predicted, so my electronics are isolated from the
power line.

If you have a secure location like an enclosed deck a Jackery etc could be
charged outdoors from free-standing panels either aimed due south or
occasionally shifted toward the sun. I made fold-out panel rear supports
from 1/2" electrical conduit bent into a V. On clear days my batteries
recharge before noon and the initial 10AM panel aim is enough. 100W panels
are now below $70.

Since I build whatever I want I have no experience with Jackerys or similar.
I do have an old Harbor Freight 5-in-1 power pack refitted with LiFePO4 but
18Ah (216Wh) won't run much overnight.

[Scout]

"cshenk" <csh...@virginia-beach.net> wrote in message

news:SIednfevasrLUwP4...@giganews.com...

> Scout wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> You could also take a bath if a hail storm comes through 3 years
>> later and wipes out 90% of your panels.. How long would it then take
>> to even think of breaking even?
>
>
> Hi Scout. You might want to look up newer stats. Thats the old China
> panels.

Actually they were US panels stated to be hail proof, and were less than 4
years old.

[Scout]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:unmrdg$2k3bk$1...@dont-email.me...

> "cshenk" wrote in message
> news:4cucnah3_8rNJgP4...@giganews.com...
> Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> The simple and safe, though not cheapest, backup is a packaged power
>> station such as a Jackery.
>
> Perfect! I was about to ask for thoughts on the Jackery setups.

If I can offer a suggestion, instead of a prepacked format. Maybe look at
the boon-docking and camping areas.

Buy a pure sine wave inverter, batteries and charger as individual units, as
long as high mobility isn't a factor, you can get better and cheaper as
individual units and have the ability to customize to exactly the format you
want, and upgrade as needed based on your needs/wants.. from increasing
charging capacity, or going to higher voltages for better efficiencies or
different battery tech depending on weight, size, or mobility issues.
Yes, it does take a bit more research and consideration, but all in all you
will get a system tuned to your preferences at a lower price, and if you
should have a failure.. you only have to replace the part that failed.
Further you have much more access to replacements when on the road as most
RV and camping outlets will have at least a few options as replacements for
all of the parts.

So if you're talking a fixed installation for your home, then weight isn't
really an option and you can save money and get better capacity choosing
options not limited by weight. If you're RVing you may get away with a much
smaller inverter as often much of the rest can be run directly from DC thus
eliminating the conversion loses and expense of a larger inverter.

The advantage of the repacked is only simplicity and mobility.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Scout" wrote in message news:unosv3$3109a$1...@dont-email.me...

If I can offer a suggestion, instead of a prepacked format. Maybe look at
the boon-docking and camping areas.

Buy a pure sine wave inverter, batteries and charger as individual units, as
long as high mobility isn't a factor, you can get better and cheaper as
individual units and have the ability to customize to exactly the format you
want, and upgrade as needed based on your needs/wants.. from increasing
charging capacity, or going to higher voltages for better efficiencies or
different battery tech depending on weight, size, or mobility issues.
Yes, it does take a bit more research and consideration, but all in all you
will get a system tuned to your preferences at a lower price, and if you
should have a failure.. you only have to replace the part that failed.
Further you have much more access to replacements when on the road as most
RV and camping outlets will have at least a few options as replacements for
all of the parts.

So if you're talking a fixed installation for your home, then weight isn't
really an option and you can save money and get better capacity choosing
options not limited by weight. If you're RVing you may get away with a much
smaller inverter as often much of the rest can be run directly from DC thus
eliminating the conversion loses and expense of a larger inverter.

The advantage of the repacked is only simplicity and mobility.

-------------------------------

I briefly covered some of the advantages and disadvantages of that approach
when describing my DIY solar system. To expand, in order to design one you
need a good quantitative understanding of your requirements and to study and
understand the capabilities of the separate modules and how they interact.

Specifically an AC refrigerator draws a starting surge current that may
exceed 10 times its run current. You won't find that surge current in its
spec sheet. The inverter, which must be true sine for a fridge or freezer,
needs to be able to supply the brief overload. Then the cable to the battery
and the fuse or circuit breaker has to pass the 10x higher DC current
without an excessive voltage drop that would fault the inverter.

If the battery is Lithium its protection circuit will have maximum surge and
continuous current ratings which are quite low compared to lead-acid, they
often can't serve as vehicle starting batteries. For my 100Ah Minis it's
100A, or 1200W which is questionable to start a compact refrigerator and
likely inadequate for a normal sized one. All this to keep your beer cold.

The heavy cables from battery to inverter are usually terminated with
solderless crimp terminals that interconnect on brass bolts. These terminals
need special large and often expensive crimpers to squeeze them tight enough
onto the wire. For safety the cables should be fused which adds another
difficult connection to make.
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Bussmann-Eaton/BK-HHX?qs=ge9Jjt4GY3XDnWkUkqvZpw%3D%3D&mgh=1&gad_source=1

I've had bad results from the in-line circuit breakers sold for car audio.
The may open at the rated current the first time, then they overheat and
open at lower current. I think the contacts burn. Carling or Blue Sea
magnetic breakers are reliable and consistent and have the required DC
voltage and current ratings (which house breakers don't) but need an
enclosure and punched or drilled mounting panel.

If the battery and inverter aren't fastened together the cables need
connectors to allow separate handling, and likely a different expensive
crimper.
https://powerwerx.com/anderson-sb-connectors-sb50-50amp

The likely enclosure for a battery is a NOCO or Atwood boat battery box
which doesn't have internal space or ventilation for an inverter, it can be
mounted outside on the cover. The LiTime 100Ah Mini LiFePO4 will fit in a
NOCO Group 24 box although it's a bit taller than a lead-acid. Walmart is a
cheaper source for them than Amazon. If you have trouble with the strap
buckle I can explain how to assemble it.

The solar controller for a portable system will likely be small enough for
10AWG wire and PP45 Anderson connectors, which are somewhat easier to crimp.
Don't use connector types with exposed pins or wire of the thinnest NEC
permitted gauge. 10AWG wire can fit the 30A pin if its barrel is wedged open
a little with a tapered punch, then it can be soldered instead of crimped.
If you need solar panel cables other than what you can buy the special
crimper for MC4 connectors is another expense. An MPPT controller is
probably a waste of money for a system of 500W or less. In hot weather panel
voltage drops and their efficiency advantage over PWM disappears.

For 12DC appliances I have Alpicool fridge/freezers with minimal starting
surges and older laptops running Win7 Media Center with Hauppauge USB TV
tuners that let them be battery TVs that can record. The Firefox browser
still works in Win7 and I have Boost mobile 4G LTE Internet on an iPhone.
Mine have primary SSDs to boot from and secondary 1TB spinning drives in the
DVD slot for recordings. Their Auto/Air power adapters run on 12V, avoiding
the question of if the power brick needs true sine AC.

For serious independence this is a nice little wood burning camping cook
stove:
https://www.amazon.com/Fltom-Camping-Portable-Sectional-Stainless/dp/B0BG5D1NYP/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&th=1
I suspect the similar models that are available in that price range would be
as good, check the reviews. The 60mm stovepipe doesn't fit any US sizes but
it can be adapted with a flue plug slit with pizza-like cuts out to 60mm
diameter and the bent-down tabs secured with a hose clamp. The cooking
opening appears sized for a wok, it's fine with a frypan with soap rubbed on
the bottom to help the soot wash off.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Scout" wrote in message news:unoo75$309gk$1...@dont-email.me...

>Actually they were US panels stated to be hail proof, and were less
>than 4 years old.

-----
Did your insurance cover the damage?

[Scout]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:unpab4$334vp$1...@dont-email.me...

No, but if you contact the manufacturer directly they should be able to
supply that information for any specific model, contact the compressor
manufacturer if it was sourced from a different manufacturer. Worst case
would require real world testing, or be prepared for the worst case. About
the only think I might add is a delay to prevent a rapid restart if power is
interrupted.
But this was covered above under the "research and consideration" clause.
If you don't want to do it.. then design your system for worst case.. I
pretty much promise a packaged system isn't necessarily designed to start
every fridge out there either.

>The inverter, which must be true sine for a fridge or freezer, needs to be
>able to supply the brief overload.

Well, given you get a true sine wave to support running motors.. surge
current requirements are a regular design criteria of most of not all pure
sign converters.

> Then the cable to the battery and the fuse or circuit breaker has to pass
> the 10x higher DC current without an excessive voltage drop that would
> fault the inverter.

Again, typically already addressed and covered by the manufacturers
recommendations on conductor sizing.

> If the battery is Lithium its protection circuit will have maximum surge
> and continuous current ratings which are quite low compared to lead-acid,
> they often can't serve as vehicle starting batteries.

Yes, see "research and consideration" above.

> For my 100Ah Minis it's 100A, or 1200W which is questionable to start a
> compact refrigerator and likely inadequate for a normal sized one. All
> this to keep your beer cold.
>
> The heavy cables from battery to inverter are usually terminated with
> solderless crimp terminals that interconnect on brass bolts. These
> terminals need special large and often expensive crimpers to squeeze them
> tight enough onto the wire. For safety the cables should be fused which
> adds another difficult connection to make.

Or you can find a source that makes custom cables to crimp them on, or can
hit the pluming isle and get some solder and simply solder the ends on, or
use No-crimp ends.

If you must get a crimping tool you can search around and find one that will
do the limited work you need for very little.
Here's one from amazon that handles 8-1/0 awg for less than $26
iCrimp Cable Lug Crimping Tool on the IWISS store front.

Indeed, it's beginning to sound like you're trying to INVENT excuses not to
go with individual components even though it would allow greater
customization and cheaper upgrade route if needs change.

> I've had bad results from the in-line circuit breakers sold for car audio.

Why would you use circuit breakers? Fuses are cheaper, more reliable and
should never need to be replaced unless you have a major failure.

However, if you want circuit breakers.. they are readily available through
RV sources including the boxes, or you can even use combined switch/circuit
breaker. You can even get waterproof though the Boating suppliers.

> The may open at the rated current the first time, then they overheat and
> open at lower current. I think the contacts burn. Carling or Blue Sea
> magnetic breakers are reliable and consistent and have the required DC
> voltage and current ratings (which house breakers don't) but need an
> enclosure and punched or drilled mounting panel.

Why would you use a breaker designed for AC on the DC side of your system?
I mean you can get 150amp DC breakers for less money that are Marine rated
for less than you would pay for 150 amp breaker designed for home use.

Indeed, then of course if you look into the industrial stuff you have a
whole new pile of options and mounting options even breakers rated for AC/DC
that are UL rated.

Then of course, there are all sorts of breakers being offered in the solar
sphere.

> If the battery and inverter aren't fastened together the cables need
> connectors to allow separate handling, and likely a different expensive
> crimper.
> https://powerwerx.com/anderson-sb-connectors-sb50-50amp

Now you're just starting to repeat yourself.

> The likely enclosure for a battery is a NOCO or Atwood boat battery box
> which doesn't have internal space or ventilation for an inverter, it can
> be mounted outside on the cover.

Why would you mount your inverter on the battery box?

Yea, you're definitely into the 'invent excuses' mindset.

<snip>

For those of you actually interested in this, are suggested to do your own
research as a prepackaged system is a series of compromises and probably
will not be best for your specific needs or it is probably easy to
reconfigure in you need to make changes much less deal with components that
die. So do your homework, find people in your area with experience..
boon-dockers (ie people who live off-grid for extended periods) are usually
an excellent source of information particularly when it comes to what brands
and specific items are highly reliable to keep on working and what problems
you may have or need to consider and what to do about those problems.

Some blog and following their experiences, errors, solutions and such may
allow you to get an idea of what you should do, and what hardware you might
want to use or avoid given their experiences.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Scout" wrote in message news:unrbtk$3f6el$1...@dont-email.me...

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:unpab4$334vp$1...@dont-email.me...

>

> I briefly covered some of the advantages and disadvantages of that
> approach when describing my DIY solar system. To expand, in order to
> design one you need a good quantitative understanding of your requirements
> and to study and understand the capabilities of the separate modules and
> how they interact.
>
> Specifically an AC refrigerator draws a starting surge current that may
> exceed 10 times its run current. You won't find that surge current in its
> spec sheet.

No, but if you contact the manufacturer directly they should be able to
supply that information for any specific model, contact the compressor
manufacturer if it was sourced from a different manufacturer. Worst case
would require real world testing, or be prepared for the worst case. About
the only think I might add is a delay to prevent a rapid restart if power is
interrupted.

But this was covered above under the "research and consideration" clause.
If you don't want to do it.. then design your system for worst case.. I
pretty much promise a packaged system isn't necessarily designed to start
every fridge out there either.

-------------------------

I listed design considerations. Most aren't difficult, you just have to know
to look for them, like breakers marked for DC . That fell under my job
because the electrical engineers weren't trained in practical considerations
like switch contact rating. One I didn't mention is that indoor solar DC
wiring is to be in metal conduit, which brings up conduit wire fill and
temperature rise derating concerns.

Determining starting surge current can be difficult if the equipment is
imported or old. Getting specs from China is particularly hard, I went
directly to the circuit designer (Liu Liang) for some. Fortunately I haven't
had to call Inner Mongolia about a product that was made there. I have a DVM
that claims to measure peak values but the result aren't close to the
readout for digital oscilloscope traces. Some refrigeration compressors have
a thermistor surge limiter that delays an immediate restart attempt, others
don't and rely on the 10,000A or more surge capacity of the power grid
(breaker short circuit interrupt rating). You have to get past customer
service to engineering to find out, which requires knowing how to talk like
an engineer yourself. Otherwise I'll be treated like a woman having her car
repaired.

The IWISS crimper can be awkward and tricky to use and tends to lengthen the
crimp sleeve and squeeze metal flash out between the jaws. It's my last
resort if I don't have a better tool.

[Scout]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:unpqp1$35gv5$1...@dont-email.me...

Why would my insurance cover their damages?

[Jim Wilkins]

"Scout" wrote in message news:unrbtk$3f6el$1...@dont-email.me...

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message

Why would you mount your inverter on the battery box?

---------------------------------
Because having two large heavy items joined only by cables invites excessive
strains on the cable connections. If the inverter is on the box lid (or
side) the heavy cables are short, the battery terminals still accessible,
and the combination can be carried as a unit. The battery is in an enclosure
designed to be safe for it. The inverter has airflow access all around,
which it might not if on the side and pushed against a wall. A charger and
PWM controller could go on the exposed side but still need some airflow.

http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/reference/2010_ABYCexcerpts.pdf
The 7" lead rule allows an in-line fuseholder made with a loop of cable to
reach from a terminal to outside the box, where it shouldn't ignite hydrogen
if the fuse blows violently and the cap isn't on. The most likely battery
short is from the wrench when tightening the nuts on the inverter studs. The
fuse can be removed as a safety disconnect.

Packaging concerns like this tend to be ignored by designers without much
practical experience. For a homeowner wood is the only readily available and
easily worked structural material, but it's a fire hazard around high
powered electricity. Sheet metal requires different equipment and skills.
When I started Transite was the temperature resistant electrical insulator
with decent structural strength, then asbestos was banned and nothing has
fully replaced it. Glass-epoxy circuit board chars and becomes conductive if
overheated. The Teflon equivalent I used for microwave radio isn't as rigid.
I've repaired an expensive custom circuit board with a blackened hole where
the main chip used to be.
https://www.adafruit.com/product/1281?gad_source=1
ZIF test sockets are available molded from higher temperature material than
standard sockets.

I've been using the handrail and exterior column steel from a scrapped
outdoor pool for projects, it's 22 ga galvanized and extremely durable
outdoors. However I have an anvil to straighten and flatten it, a large
metal shear and a corner notcher to cut it and a press brake to bend it. I
think I was chosen over other techs to build many prototype projects because
my results could look like commercial products instead of being tacked to a
Bud chassis.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Scout" wrote in message news:unrinp$3g7hb$1...@dont-email.me...

--------------------------------

I wouldn't know, that depends on the specific coverage and exclusions in
your homeowners policy.

[cshenk]

Pre-packed and simplicity is the aim this time. There are others very
similar to the Jackery, that I have looked at too. I am (on the
Jackery) replacing an awkward gas/keri backyard portable generator with
something I can just pickup and bring inside and plug on with no 75+
foot cables strung everywhere.

[cshenk]

That is similar to my possible 4-6 hour battery. Not ready to do it in
next year. Might do it in 2 years.

[cshenk]

That's probably it. Some of the other components (inverters maybe?)
come from Canada.

[cshenk]

There's no sign Scout had any hail damage. He only asked me about
coverage 'if' something hit me.

[Polettik]

On 13 Jan 2024, "cshenk" <csh...@virginia-beach.net> posted some
news:zT6dnbJ-hfQ-gz74...@giganews.com:

Buy an adapter for your Telsa and just plug in your house. That's what
Gavin Newsom says you can do.

[Jim Wilkins]

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:-W-dna87UK_Uvj74...@giganews.com...

That is similar to my possible 4-6 hour battery. Not ready to do it in
next year. Might do it in 2 years.

--------------------------

https://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-support-search-content?contentId=17354

Operating on limited backup power is easier with lower powered appliances.
My main AC powered fridge is a 4.3 cubic foot Magic Chef that must be
manually defrosted. The defrost cycle of a frost-free is a power hog.
Usually it's plugged into the wall and allowed to coast without being opened
during short outages.

For longer ones that reach meal times it goes onto my homebrew version of
the Jackery, made from a commercial server room UPS with 2 KWH of
solar-charged extra batteries. If you find one cheap a large true sine
server UPS can make a nice backup system but setting it up isn't for
beginners. Mine was free because the flea market seller didn't know how to
remove the old swollen batteries and was about to pack and leave.

https://www.sunwize.com/tech-notes/should-i-add-solar-to-my-ups-system/
It can be the lowest cost option if you are up to it. When the outage risk
is high it can run its loads from the grid and automatically switch to
battery when the grid fails, and back when it's restored, as a UPS is meant
to. They do consume power internally and cost something to leave on
continuously.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Polettik" wrote in message news:unvcl9$bg2$1...@toxic.dizum.net...

Buy an adapter for your Telsa and just plug in your house. That's what
Gavin Newsom says you can do.

----------------------------------

https://calmatters.org/environment/2023/07/california-electric-cars-bidirectional-charging/

Lets also make Direct Deposit bidirectional, so the bank account they
deposit your Social Security into could be temporarily debited to make up
deficits, if you have more than they know you need.

[Jim Wilkins]

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:-W-dna87UK_Uvj74...@giganews.com...

That is similar to my possible 4-6 hour battery. Not ready to do it in
next year. Might do it in 2 years.

-----------------------------

I use laptops whose batteries protect them from power outages, so I can
afford a few minutes to reconfigure to battery power. If you need continuous
power for a desktop a power station may or may not provide it with a UPS
function. Apparently the Jackery 1000 doesn't, the 2000 does. One indication
is the AC power cord plugging in directly instead of running a small
external AC>DC power brick.

https://www.storagereview.com/review/portable-power-stations-actually-work-pretty-well-as-a-ups

Internet weather radar gives a pretty good view of approaching storms and
fronts. When I hear approaching thunder I pull the UPS wall plug and
continue working on my spreadsheets or program on isolated battery power
until the storm has passed.

[Scout]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:unrp0i$3h5b2$1...@dont-email.me...

Why would my policy cover them?

[Scout]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:unrodd$3h2bv$1...@dont-email.me...

> "Scout" wrote in message news:unrbtk$3f6el$1...@dont-email.me...
> "Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> Why would you mount your inverter on the battery box?
> ---------------------------------
> Because having two large heavy items joined only by cables invites
> excessive strains on the cable connections.

and what sort of stain do you think would likely exist in a garage or shed,
or outdoor enclosure?

IOW, you are making unfounded assumptions to the nature of the system.

Try again when you can get up to speed.

[cshenk]

I don't know who you meant to reply to but it's not related to anything
I said or need.

[Jim Wilkins]

"cshenk" wrote in message
news:d-2cnfiUIsRl4zj4...@giganews.com...

Polettik wrote:

>
> Buy an adapter for your Telsa and just plug in your house. That's
> what Gavin Newsom says you can do.

I don't know who you meant to reply to but it's not related to anything
I said or need.

--------------------------
These unmoderated Usenet discussion groups are open and free to all, for
better or worse, and rarely stay on the original topic for long. I've put up
with the noise for 30+ years.