Wind Solar unreliable compared to Gas Coal Nuclear

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contact

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Sep 27, 2021, 3:57:35 PM9/27/21
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When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

Dechucka

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Sep 27, 2021, 4:15:43 PM9/27/21
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On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>

Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go figure

Just Wondering

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Sep 27, 2021, 5:12:20 PM9/27/21
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We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

Dechucka

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Sep 27, 2021, 5:25:34 PM9/27/21
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That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
achieved.

Jim Wilkins

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Sep 27, 2021, 6:11:57 PM9/27/21
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"Just Wondering" wrote in message news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1....@fx19.iad...
-----------------------

"Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your only
source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to postpone the use
of that electricity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box


Dechucka

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Sep 27, 2021, 6:31:46 PM9/27/21
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Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000
megawatts of battery storage to put into the grid.

Bob F

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Sep 27, 2021, 7:00:28 PM9/27/21
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No, we do not.
Yes, they can.

Just Wondering

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Sep 27, 2021, 9:13:35 PM9/27/21
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Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar". Storage batteries =
chemical energy -> electrical energy. They don't postpone
the use of solar energy, they use electrical energy which can
be from any source to make a chemical reaction. When you use
a battery, another chemical reaction that results in the release
of electrical energy. None of those processes involve solar
energy.

Just Wondering

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Sep 27, 2021, 9:15:05 PM9/27/21
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The reality is probably that you uses solar energy when the sun
is shining, and chemical energy in the form of batteries when
solar energy is unavailable.

Just Wondering

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Sep 27, 2021, 9:16:44 PM9/27/21
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Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.

Just Wondering

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Sep 27, 2021, 9:17:48 PM9/27/21
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Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
is below the horizon.

Bob F

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Sep 27, 2021, 10:30:19 PM9/27/21
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I don't need to play your word games. The energy is solar, with some
stored in batteries for later use. It is not hydro, it is not fossil
fuel, it is solar.

Dechucka

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Sep 27, 2021, 10:53:57 PM9/27/21
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On 28/09/2021 11:15 am, Just Wondering wrote:
> On 9/27/2021 3:25 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>> On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>
>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
>>>> figure
>>>
>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>
>> That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
>> achieved.
>
> The reality is probably that you uses solar energy when the sun
> is shining, and chemical energy in the form of batteries when
> solar energy is unavailable.

The reality is that the energy comes from the sun, batteries are a
storage mechanism

>
> Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar".

Yes they are as that is what charges them

> Storage batteries =
> chemical energy -> electrical energy.  They don't postpone
> the use of solar energy, they use electrical energy which can
> be from any source to make a chemical reaction.  When you use
> a battery, another chemical reaction that results in the release
> of electrical energy.  None of those processes involve solar
> energy.

I'll give it ago and disconnect my solar panels from the batteries and
see how long this chemical reaction lasts, actually I know it will be 5
days. Than I will recharge them from the sun.

Dechucka

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Sep 27, 2021, 11:01:35 PM9/27/21
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Solar energy is a chemical reaction, hey you can claim I'm using nuclear
power. If it makes you happy to believe that renewable energy can't keep
going when the sun doesn't and the wind doesn't blow because chemical
storage is used so be it.
>

Dechucka

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Sep 27, 2021, 11:02:39 PM9/27/21
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Except for the charging part in my case

Just Wondering

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Sep 28, 2021, 2:39:18 AM9/28/21
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On 9/27/2021 8:53 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> On 28/09/2021 11:15 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 9/27/2021 3:25 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>> On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
>>>>> figure
>>>>
>>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>>
>>> That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
>>> achieved.
>>
>> The reality is probably that you uses solar energy when the sun
>> is shining, and chemical energy in the form of batteries when
>> solar energy is unavailable.
>
> The reality is that the energy comes from the sun, batteries are a
> storage mechanism

If you want to play that game, hydroelectric power is only a
storage mechanism for solar energy. Wind energy is only a
storage machanism for solar energy. Burning anything (wood,
coal, oil, natural gas, ethanol, whatever) is only a storage
mechanism for solar energy. From science's explanation of how
suns and planets are formed, even nuclear energy is only a
storage mechanism for solar energy.

>>
>> Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar".
>
> Yes they are as that is what charges them

Any source of electricity will charge batteries. I charge the
batteries in my wireless computer mouse by plugging the mouse
into a USB port, which draws power from my computer which is
plugged into an outlet that receives power from my friendly
regional electric utility, which gets its electricity from
who knows where. Battery power is not solar power no matter
how much you want to rationalize it.>
>> Storage batteries = chemical energy -> electrical energy.
>> They don't postpone the use of solar energy, they use electrical
>> energy which can be from any source to make a chemical reaction.
>> When you use a battery, another chemical reaction that results
>> in the release of electrical energy.  None of those processes
>> involve solar energy.
>
> I'll give it a go and disconnect my solar panels from the batteries
> and see how long this chemical reaction lasts, actually I know it
> will be 5 days.

During those five days you will get your electricity from a
chemical reaction, not from the sun.

> Than I will recharge them from the sun.

Or you could recharge your batteries from a gas-powered generator,
or you could hook up a car generator to a windmill and use the wind
to charge your batteries, or connect that generator to a stationary
bicycle and pedal away until your batteries are charged. However
you charge your batteries, when you draw power from those batteries
it is not solar power, it is chemical energy.

Just Wondering

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Sep 28, 2021, 2:48:05 AM9/28/21
to
On 9/27/2021 9:01 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> On 28/09/2021 11:16 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 9/27/2021 4:31 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>> On 28/09/2021 8:11 am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>> "Just Wondering"  wrote in message
>>>> news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1....@fx19.iad...
>>>>
>>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
>>>>> figure
>>>>
>>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>>>
>>>> -----------------------
>>>>
>>>> "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is
>>>> your only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to
>>>> postpone the use of that electricity.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
>>> system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000
>>> megawatts of battery storage to put into the grid.
>>
>> Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.
>
> Solar energy is a chemical reaction, hey you can claim I'm using nuclear
> power.

Solar power comes from nuclear fusion, not a chemical reaction.

> If it makes you happy to believe that renewable energy can't
> keep going when the sun doesn't and the wind doesn't blow
> because chemical storage is used so be it.

It's not my "belief", I am describing the science of what
is solar energy.

https://justenergy.com/blog/what-is-solar-energy/ Notice where
it says, "Disadvantages of Solar Energy It Won’t Work at Night."

Just Wondering

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Sep 28, 2021, 2:56:57 AM9/28/21
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You could use excess solar power during the day to pump water into an
uphill pond and use a water-powered generator at night. We can and do
use solar energy to grow trees and such that can be burned to power
electric generators. Fossil fuel is just wood that has been stored a
very long time before we burn it to release the stored solar power.

It's not a word game. Energy stored in batteries literally is
not solar energy even if electricity generated from solar panels
is used to charge the batteries. If you're going to play THAT
word game, quite literally every energy source in use is stored
solar energy. If that's the game you want to play, hydro power
is stored solar power. Wind power is stored solar power, Energy
from burning any sort of fuel is stored solar power. Muscle power
is stored solar power. Geothermal is stored solar power. Even
nuclear is stored solar power. So if THAT's how you play the
game, every house on the planet is totally solar.

Dechucka

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Sep 28, 2021, 2:57:21 AM9/28/21
to
Of course solar is the source of power for the batteries. Thanks for a
new but inane argument

>>> Storage batteries = chemical energy -> electrical energy. They don't
>>> postpone the use of solar energy, they use electrical
>>> energy which can be from any source to make a chemical reaction. When
>>> you use a battery, another chemical reaction that results
>>> in the release of electrical energy.  None of those processes
>>> involve solar energy.
>>
>> I'll give it a go and disconnect my solar panels from the batteries
>> and see how long this chemical reaction lasts, actually I know it will
>> be 5 days.
>
> During those five days you will get your electricity from a
> chemical reaction, not from the sun.

A chemical reaction that got it's power from being recharged by the sun
>
>> Than I will recharge them from the sun.
>
> Or you could recharge your batteries from a gas-powered generator,
> or you could hook up a car generator to a windmill and use the wind
> to charge your batteries,

Are wind power is an excellent renewable energy source

> or connect that generator to a stationary
> bicycle and pedal away until your batteries are charged.

My emergency radio works like that

> However
> you charge your batteries, when you draw power from those batteries
> it is not solar power, it is chemical energy.

If you're happy with that inanity so be it

Dechucka

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Sep 28, 2021, 3:01:12 AM9/28/21
to
On 28/09/2021 4:56 pm, Just Wondering wrote:
> On 9/27/2021 8:30 PM, Bob F wrote:
>> On 9/27/2021 6:17 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>> On 9/27/2021 5:00 PM, Bob F wrote:
>>>> On 9/27/2021 2:12 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night.
>>>>>> Go figure
>>>>>
>>>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>>>
>>>> No, we do not.
>>>> Yes, they can.
>>>
>>> Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
>>> is below the horizon.
>>
>> I don't need to play your word games. The energy is solar, with some
>> stored in batteries for later use. It is not hydro, it is not fossil
>> fuel, it is solar.
>
> You could use excess solar power during the day to pump water into an
> uphill pond and use a water-powered generator at night.

Called pump hydro such a scheme is being built in the Snowys

We can and do
> use solar energy to grow trees and such that can be burned to power
> electric generators.  Fossil fuel is just wood that has been stored a
> very long time before we burn it to release the stored solar power.
>
> It's not a word game.  Energy stored in batteries literally is
> not solar energy even if electricity generated from solar panels
> is used to charge the batteries.  If you're going to play THAT
> word game, quite literally every energy source in use is stored
> solar energy.  If that's the game you want to play, hydro power
> is stored solar power.  Wind power is stored solar power,  Energy
> from burning any sort of fuel is stored solar power.  Muscle power
> is stored solar power.  Geothermal is stored solar power.  Even
> nuclear is stored solar power.  So if THAT's how you play the
> game, every house on the planet is totally solar.

So lets stick to the renewable forms of this solar energy as I'm doing
with my solar powered farm

Just Wondering

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Sep 28, 2021, 3:03:02 AM9/28/21
to
On 9/27/2021 9:02 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> On 28/09/2021 11:13 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 9/27/2021 4:11 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>> "Just Wondering"  wrote in message
>>> news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1....@fx19.iad...
>>>
>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>
>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
>>>> figure
>>>
>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

>>> "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your
>>> only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to
>>> postpone the use of that electricity.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
>>
>> Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar".  Storage batteries =
>> chemical energy -> electrical energy.  They don't postpone
>> the use of solar energy, they use electrical energy which can
>> be from any source to make a chemical reaction.  When you use
>> a battery, another chemical reaction that results in the release
>> of electrical energy.  None of those processes involve solar
>> energy.
>
> Except for the charging part in my case

It sounds like you use electricity from photovoltaic cells during
the day to charge your batteries. You then use electricity from
discharging your batteries when solar energy is not available.
That latter use is chemical energy, not solar energy.

Read my other posts on this subject. If you want to play the game
of "my batteries are stored solar power", then every bloody energy
source on the planet, from horse-drawn carts to burning wood or
ethanol or coal to wind and hydro power to nuclear power is also
stored solar power.

Just Wondering

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Sep 28, 2021, 3:14:36 AM9/28/21
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I'm talking science, you're talking political correctness.

Trevor Wilson

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Sep 28, 2021, 3:17:13 AM9/28/21
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On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
**You have 17th century thinking. The rest of us exist in the 21st century.

Dechucka

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Sep 28, 2021, 3:25:42 AM9/28/21
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snip

>> My emergency radio works like that
>>
>>> However you charge your batteries, when you draw power from
>>> those batteries it is not solar power, it is chemical energy.
>>
>> If you're happy with that inanity so be it
>
> I'm talking science, you're talking political correctness.

If you can talk science you'll know all about the GHG properties of
certain molecules, I'm sure you've kept up with the science as it's been
known since the 1800s. You'll also understand that these molecules don't
change their properties from the lab to the atmosphere.
I'll do my bit while at the same time saving money and ensuring
reliability esp during bush-fires and other natural disasters.

Jim Wilkins

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Sep 28, 2021, 8:55:45 AM9/28/21
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"Just Wondering" wrote in message news:_1u4J.58228$2Q_3....@fx35.iad...
Then you don't understand the formal logic of scientific modeling. The Black
Box can include internal storage of inputs.

> Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.

That's irrelevant if the source of that energy is solar.

You can call it whatever you please, but these systems are really defined by
the scientists and engineers who design and build them.

Solar panels without either storage or a sink like the grid to receive the
energy are nearly useless, because almost all real-world loads are so
variable.

I've been experimenting with immediate use of solar power in a freezer with
a DC compressor. In the middle of the day solar panel output is enough to
operate the compressor, and the Watt meter on the input to the attached AC
power supply reads zero.

When the compressor is off the solar current diverts to float charging the
freezer's backup battery and topping off other spares. Yesterday I checked
the battery electrolyte and confirmed that the float voltage is enough to
maintain a full charge but below the gassing level. This is how a UPS or
exit light maintains its lead-acid battery, with the disadvantage that after
an outage a full recharge at the float voltage can take a day or more, as
indicated by the trickle charging current.

When solar current isn't enough the compressor draws the rest from the AC
supply, shown by the power division on their Watt meters, or if the grid
fails it draws from the battery.

This meter keeps track of energy into and out of the battery:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32785159924.html
and this one monitors power drawn from the the AC line:
https://www.aliexpress.com/cheap/cheap-pzem-061.html
This PZEM-031 reads DC solar power but it doesn't like the low voltages at
dawn and dusk so I added a relay that protects it from seeing less than 10V:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32413784036.html

That's as close as I get to using all available solar power as it is
produced.

The other application for immediate use of solar power is heating water, but
I keep my low voltage solar circuits as isolated from the grid as possible
for safety. Otherwise it's just a theoretical exercise, not a practical home
power system.

You can't intelligently discuss energy without an understanding of
thermodynamics and energy quality, which concerns how easily it can be
transformed between forms such as the heat of a fire vs electricity or shaft
rotation. Unfortunately the non-technical general public doesn't seem to
appreciate the distinction between a primary source of energy like sunlight
and the secondary means of storing and distributing it, like hydrogen or
electricity.
https://stem.guide/topic/primary-resources-and-secondary-energy/

"Totally Solar" refers to the primary source. Secondary conversions don't
matter.
jsw

Jim Wilkins

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Sep 28, 2021, 9:37:00 AM9/28/21
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"Just Wondering" wrote in message news:D6z4J.85358$Dr.5...@fx40.iad...

It sounds like you use electricity from photovoltaic cells during
the day to charge your batteries. You then use electricity from
discharging your batteries when solar energy is not available.
That latter use is chemical energy, not solar energy.

Read my other posts on this subject. If you want to play the game
of "my batteries are stored solar power", then every bloody energy
source on the planet, from horse-drawn carts to burning wood or
ethanol or coal to wind and hydro power to nuclear power is also
stored solar power.

-------------------

Your attempted redefinition of "total solar" would render the term useless.
You are entitled to your opinion, and we to ours.

Scout

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Sep 28, 2021, 10:13:11 AM9/28/21
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"Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:situno$el1$1...@dont-email.me...
<Raises Hand>

Can you tell me how you insure that the energy used to produce every
component of the system, including transportation of such, used 100% solar
power?

Are cargo ships from China now equipped with solar powered engines?

Are you aware that the primary source of the overwhelming bulk of solar
equipment is from the biggest source of emissions and pollution on the
planet?

If you're just pushing the pollution to somewhere you don't see it, does
that really change anything?



Scout

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Sep 28, 2021, 10:13:11 AM9/28/21
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"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:sitfja$nb7$1...@dont-email.me...
Average consumption 30 kilowatthours (kWh).

Figure 16 hours of storage as a bare minimum

100Ahr battery = 600 wh

Minimum required 40 batteries.

Cost about $8000 just for the batteries.

Another $14,000 for the solar system

Figure about $15,000 for installation.

More for the lost floor space, or building to hold all this.

And that only gets you through the day. If you don't have 8 hours of full
charge... overcast, raining, snow, etc then your battery capacity
requirements will go up drastically,.

Then we need to calculate the pollution produced for all that hardware, the
regular replacement of the batteries, panels and systems over a lifetime and
then figure out if you're actually cutting emissions... or just spreading it
around.

Seems to me to be a lot of money and issues for a dubious reduction in
pollution.






Bob F

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Sep 28, 2021, 12:32:16 PM9/28/21
to
The significant issue is that the solar house with batteries is getting
its energy from the sun, not from fossil fuel, reducing it's damage to
the climate from CO2 releases. If it charged the batteries from a coal
power plant, that would not be the case.

A solar heated house stores thermal energy in thermal mass for use
overnight. A solar powered house can similarly store energy in electric
batteries, or flywheels. They are both solar.

But of course, common sense seems to mean nothing to you. You just have
to be "right".

Bob F

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Sep 28, 2021, 12:34:11 PM9/28/21
to
Name a few power sources that do not have those costs.

Jim Wilkins

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Sep 28, 2021, 2:01:55 PM9/28/21
to
"Scout" wrote in message news:siv7tl$t50$7...@dont-email.me...
--------------------------

My backup system isn't nearly that large or expensive, and my normal
consumption is under 5KWH per day.

The backup supports a compact refrigerator and small freezer plus one or two
laptops for cellular Internet and antenna television. For meals I run a 2KW
inverter generator, or use the wood stove since most long outages here are
from winter ice storms. Laundry requires a 3KW generator and kick-starting
by releasing the old Maytag's belt tension with my foot on the motor. I
freeze-dry the laundry on an outdoor clothes line, typically within the same
day since winter humidity is very low.

Two fairly new 12V 105Ah marine batteries will run the inverter for at least
24 hours and maybe 48 depending on conditions. The freezer operates on 12V
DC and can go almost 48 hours on the original pair of ~10 year old
batteries, by recent test. The four marine batteries and four 100W panels
averaged $100 apiece and the sine inverter was free, a "dead" high end APC
UPS. Installation is standing the panels on fold-out legs in the yard or
driveway when I need them for an outage, otherwise a row of small flea
market panels on the roof powers the freezer. After measuring power loss I
upgraded the house solar wire to 10 AWG, a significant expense if you buy it
new.

As best I can figure, the cost of battery depreciation if cycled daily
somewhat exceeds the cost of grid power, so I use the system only for backup
to prolong battery life. I ran the numbers for flooded, AGM and Lithium and
flooded won IF maintained, but not if neglected. I pay $0.18688 per grid KWH
and these $100 batteries would cost $0.20 per KWH if they delivered 1 KWH
each, 500 times. They probably wouldn't last that long, 500 cycles is
pushing the claimed performance of AGMs at twice the price and reportedly
half the storage life, so the high end estimate for battery cost ran around
$0.50/KWH, close to using a generator. I get nearly 10 years in storage from
used PowerSonic 12V 18A AGMs if they are topped up regularly, less than 3
years from Rhinos. They are considered dead and recycled when they won't run
the freezer the equivalent of overnight.

If I switched to daily cycling I would buy different batteries because the
flooded ones may gas if charged fast enough, meaning high enough voltage, to
fully recover from a deep discharge during winter daylight. They don't gas
if limited to the float voltage, but they also don't fully recharge in a
day. They do charge to 70~80% before reaching the gassing voltage, which is
enough for me.

Unless more trees die and fall I don't get enough sun on the roof to justify
a larger permanent installation. What I have has let me unplug from the grid
and keep operating as usual when thunderstorms threaten, and stay off it if
they last overnight. I've only needed the generator briefly a few times
during an extended winter blackout. In clear weather 400W (~330W into the
batteries) of solar power recharged the batteries into the acceptance
(declining current) range by 10AM.

-jsw

Jim Wilkins

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Sep 28, 2021, 2:08:47 PM9/28/21
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"Bob F" wrote in message news:sivg2e$va0$1...@dont-email.me...

The significant issue is that the solar house with batteries is getting
its energy from the sun, not from fossil fuel, reducing it's damage to
the climate from CO2 releases. If it charged the batteries from a coal
power plant, that would not be the case.

A solar heated house stores thermal energy in thermal mass for use
overnight. A solar powered house can similarly store energy in electric
batteries, or flywheels. They are both solar.

But of course, common sense seems to mean nothing to you. You just have
to be "right".

----------------

If the meaning of words matters more than effective actions then "totally
solar" should exclude the conversion from optical to electrical as well as
from electrical to chemical. The system output should be a beam of sunshine.

Jim Wilkins

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Sep 28, 2021, 2:17:39 PM9/28/21
to
"Scout" wrote in message news:siv7tl$t50$8...@dont-email.me...
....
Are cargo ships from China now equipped with solar powered engines?
....

---------------------

Be careful what you wish for, you may get it and suffer the consequences.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a34272175/wind-powered-sailboat-cargo-shipping-future/

The better wooden sailing ships could do 15 knots, the best over 20.

Just Wondering

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Sep 28, 2021, 4:36:16 PM9/28/21
to
On 9/28/2021 12:57 AM, Dechucka wrote:
The fact remains, electric power from batteries is not totally solar.
>
>>>> Storage batteries = chemical energy -> electrical energy. They don't
>>>> postpone the use of solar energy, they use electrical
>>>> energy which can be from any source to make a chemical reaction.
>>>> When you use a battery, another chemical reaction that results
>>>> in the release of electrical energy.  None of those processes
>>>> involve solar energy.
>>>
>>> I'll give it a go and disconnect my solar panels from the batteries
>>> and see how long this chemical reaction lasts, actually I know it
>>> will be 5 days.
>>
>> During those five days you will get your electricity from a
>> chemical reaction, not from the sun.
>
> A chemical reaction that got it's power from being recharged by the sun

A chemical reaction that is not totally solar.
>>
>>> Than I will recharge them from the sun.
>>
>> Or you could recharge your batteries from a gas-powered generator,
>> or you could hook up a car generator to a windmill and use the wind
>> to charge your batteries,
>
> Are wind power is an excellent renewable energy source

Do you agree that wind power is solar power just as much as
is battery power?
>
>> or connect that generator to a stationary
>> bicycle and pedal away until your batteries are charged.
>
> My emergency radio works like that

Do you agree that a electricity from a human-powered generator
is just as much solar power as is battery power?

>> However you charge your batteries, when you draw power from
>> those batteries it is not solar power, it is chemical energy.
>
> If you're happy with that inanity so be it

I acknowledge the science. So you think science is inane. Got it.

Just Wondering

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Sep 28, 2021, 4:40:16 PM9/28/21
to
On 9/28/2021 1:01 AM, Dechucka wrote:
> On 28/09/2021 4:56 pm, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 9/27/2021 8:30 PM, Bob F wrote:
>>> On 9/27/2021 6:17 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>>> On 9/27/2021 5:00 PM, Bob F wrote:
>>>>> On 9/27/2021 2:12 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night.
>>>>>>> Go figure
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>>>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, we do not.
>>>>> Yes, they can.
>>>>
>>>> Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
>>>> is below the horizon.
>>>
>>> I don't need to play your word games. The energy is solar, with some
>>> stored in batteries for later use. It is not hydro, it is not fossil
>>> fuel, it is solar.
>>
>> You could use excess solar power during the day to pump water into an
>> uphill pond and use a water-powered generator at night.
>
> Called pump hydro such a scheme is being built in the Snowys

If battery power is solar power, so is hydro power. But neither
is what people mean when they say "solar power".
>
> We can and do
>> use solar energy to grow trees and such that can be burned to power
>> electric generators.  Fossil fuel is just wood that has been stored a
>> very long time before we burn it to release the stored solar power.
>>
>> It's not a word game.  Energy stored in batteries literally is
>> not solar energy even if electricity generated from solar panels
>> is used to charge the batteries.  If you're going to play THAT
>> word game, quite literally every energy source in use is stored
>> solar energy.  If that's the game you want to play, hydro power
>> is stored solar power.  Wind power is stored solar power,  Energy
>> from burning any sort of fuel is stored solar power.  Muscle power
>> is stored solar power.  Geothermal is stored solar power.  Even
>> nuclear is stored solar power.  So if THAT's how you play the
>> game, every house on the planet is totally solar.
>
> So lets stick to the renewable forms of this solar energy as
> I'm doing with my solar powered farm

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/52/80/bd/5280bd3bc8a37b76d62e6a3aec037fc7.jpg

Dechucka

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Sep 28, 2021, 4:43:13 PM9/28/21
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snip

>> If you're happy with that inanity so be it
>
> I acknowledge the science.  So you think science is inane.  Got it.

If aknowledge science you'll know all about the GHG properties of

Dechucka

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Sep 28, 2021, 4:44:48 PM9/28/21
to
snip

> If battery power is solar power, so is hydro power.  But neither
> is what people mean when they say "solar power".

So you know what is meant and I know what is meant so why your inane
arguing?

Just Wondering

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Sep 28, 2021, 4:46:03 PM9/28/21
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If that's your position, then ALL energy on the planet is solar
power. Wind turbines? Secondary conversion of solar energy.
Hydroelectric generators? Secondary conversion of solar energy.
The same is true with combustion of fuel - ANY fuel. The same
for tidal energy, using oxen to plow a field, slaves to pick
cotton, even nuclear fission plants. All are secondary conversions
of energy where solar energy is the primary source.

Just Wondering

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Sep 28, 2021, 4:48:27 PM9/28/21
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On 9/28/2021 7:36 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Right back at you. Your own definition of solar power makes
the whole conversation useless. Accepting your definition from
another post, if a "secondary conversion" of solar energy as a
primary source is still solar energy, then there is NO energy
source on the planet that is not solar energy.

Just Wondering

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Sep 28, 2021, 4:55:40 PM9/28/21
to
Fossil fuels, and non-fossil combustible fuels (wood, ethanol, etc.)
also get their energy from the sun. If battery chemical energy is
solar energy, so is combustion energy.

But the significant issue is Chuckie's dual claims, that "my
house is totally solar" and also "I have power at night". The
only way you can make both statements true is by a definition
of solar energy that logically extends to every form of energy
on the planet - which makes the definition useless.
>
> A solar heated house stores thermal energy in thermal mass for use
> overnight. A solar powered house can similarly store energy in electric
> batteries, or flywheels. They are both solar.
>
> But of course, common sense seems to mean nothing to you. You
> just have to be "right".

Common sense says that batteries are not solar energy even if
you use a photovoltaic cell to charge them. Common sense says
that if you're going to call a battery solar energy, then you
can just as well call wind power or burning weed solar energy too.

Scout

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Sep 28, 2021, 4:56:07 PM9/28/21
to


"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:sivm81$i3s$1...@dont-email.me...
Typical container ship 20-25 knots... in all weather, in all conditions.

It would be nice to go back to sail, but it would take many years to make
the change over, and even then only some cargos would benefit from it.

A little disruption in the supply chain, coupled with "just in time"
inventory control means serious issues unless we undo much of what's been
done to streamline and economize industry to reduce costs.





Scout

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Sep 28, 2021, 4:56:07 PM9/28/21
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"Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:sivg61$va0$2...@dont-email.me...
So solving the pollution isn't what you're after... just moving it somewhere
else.... got it.


Scout

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Sep 28, 2021, 4:56:08 PM9/28/21
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"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:sivlag$aq4$1...@dont-email.me...
Ok, so first off we're going to have to eliminate a lot of stuff that's now
required for modern homes.



> The backup supports a compact refrigerator and small freezer plus one or
> two laptops for cellular Internet and antenna television. For meals I run
> a 2KW inverter generator, or use the wood stove since most long outages
> here are from winter ice storms. Laundry requires a 3KW generator and
> kick-starting by releasing the old Maytag's belt tension with my foot on
> the motor. I freeze-dry the laundry on an outdoor clothes line, typically
> within the same day since winter humidity is very low.

<yawn> do you really expect people to make this change?

Could you imagine a modern city with virtually everyone using wood for
heating in the winter?

Talk about pollution.

Meanwhile, it seems clear that if the sun doesn't come out.... your
semi-modern lifestyle comes to an end... or you fire up that extremely
polluting fossil fuel generator to help you over the hump.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing the workable solution that will be accepted by
people who want nothing less than 3000 square foot homes and push button
connivance for everything.

I grew up in a home heated exclusively by wood, and let me tell you there
were some COLD mornings, and getting up in the middle of the night,
nevermind all the work over the summer putting up enough wood, which again
city dwellers wouldn't have.

So, while you have a 'solution' that works for you because you're willing to
cut a lot of corners, and do the extra work, I'm still not sure if I'm
seeing an overall improvement in the amount of pollution being produced, and
certainly not something that I see 330 Million Americans who will be be
willing to do that and live like that.


Just Wondering

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Sep 28, 2021, 5:00:46 PM9/28/21
to
On 9/28/2021 2:43 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> snip
>
>>> If you're happy with that inanity so be it
>>
>> I acknowledge the science.  So you think science is inane.  Got it.
>
> If aknowledge science you'll know all about the GHG properties of
> certain molecules

What's under discussion is your mutually exclusive assertions that

Just Wondering

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Sep 28, 2021, 5:03:21 PM9/28/21
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What you mean is that battery power is solar power. What I mean
is that it is not. What I mean is science. What you mean requires
that you ignore science.

Dechucka

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Sep 28, 2021, 5:11:14 PM9/28/21
to
On 29/09/2021 7:03 am, Just Wondering wrote:
> On 9/28/2021 2:44 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>> snip
>>
>>> If battery power is solar power, so is hydro power.  But neither
>>> is what people mean when they say "solar power".
>>
>> So you know what is meant and I know what is meant so why your inane
>> arguing?
>
> What you mean is that battery power is solar power.  What I mean
> is that it is not.  What I mean is science.

I'm sure you've kept up with the science as it's been known since the
1800s. You'll also understand that these molecules don't change their
properties from the lab to the atmosphere.
I'll do my bit while at the same time saving money and ensuring
reliability esp during bush-fires and other natural disasters

> What you mean requires
> that you ignore science.

So you're happy playing words games. I'm happy reducing GHG production

Jim Wilkins

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Sep 28, 2021, 5:16:45 PM9/28/21
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"Scout" wrote in message news:sivvh6$r3f$3...@dont-email.me...



"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
...

<yawn> do you really expect people to make this change?

--------------------

Not at all, but I hope they understand the personal consequences of what
they demand of others

Just Wondering

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Sep 28, 2021, 5:27:11 PM9/28/21
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You're happy trying to change the subject when you can't refute
me on the facts.

Dechucka

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Sep 28, 2021, 5:33:20 PM9/28/21
to
snip
>> So you're happy playing words games. I'm happy reducing GHG production
>
> You're happy trying to change the subject when you can't refute
> me on the facts.


I'm happy that I'm reducing my reliance on fossil fuel. As I know it's
been known since the 1800s that certain molecules are GHGs. I also

Scout

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Sep 29, 2021, 9:11:23 AM9/29/21
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"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:sj00nr$4jd$1...@dont-email.me...
What personal consequences?

Do what they want to do, how they want to do it?

Yea, that's gotta be a bummer


Jim Wilkins

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Sep 29, 2021, 12:54:38 PM9/29/21
to
"Scout" wrote in message news:sj1olo$uka$1...@dont-email.me...
---------------------

California leads the way with high time-of-use electric rates and outages.

Bob F

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Sep 29, 2021, 2:06:08 PM9/29/21
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If you don't include Texas.
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