Lead acid battery charger (or alternator) switching to trickle with load present?

[Commander Kinsey]

How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

[%]

the catalytic converter tells it

[Peeler]

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:19:05 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (aka "Commander Kinsey",
"James Wilkinson", "Steven Wanker","Bruce Farquar", "Fred Johnson, etc.),
the pathological resident idiot and attention whore of all the uk ngs,
blathered again:

<FLUSH the sociopathic wanker's latest attention-baiting idiotic bullshit
unread again>


--
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Starts many threads most of which die quick as on the UK groups anyone
with sense Kill filed him ages ago which is why he now cross posts to
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This thread was unusual in that it derived and continued without him
to a large extent and his silly questioning is an attempt to get
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MID: <be195d5jh0hktj054...@4ax.com>

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MID: <e39a6a7f-9677-4e78...@googlegroups.com>

--
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MID: <KaToA.263621$g93.2...@fx10.am4>

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MID: <slrnq16c27....@jaka.local>

[Rod Speed]

Commander Kinsey <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote

> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
> switch to trickle charge?

From the current the battery takes.

> I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery is
> on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there is
> in a running car?

You just look at the current going to the battery. The variably
loads like with lights isnt supplied by the battery when the
engine is running, its supplied by the alternator.

[Commander Kinsey]

But how can the regulator on the alternator possibly know the current it's passing to the battery is going into the battery and not going straight across to the lights? If you look at the battery in your car, there are two or three thick wires coming off each terminal. One will go to the alternator, another to the fusebox for all the lights etc. Unless there's some clever circuitry monitoring each battery wire individually and subtracting the currents, the alternator can't tell the difference between a battery taking 12 amps, and a battery taking 2 amps plus lights taking 10 amps. The second one requires switching to trickle charge, the first doesn't.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 06:54:38 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

> You just look at the current going to the battery. The variably
> loads like with lights isnt supplied by the battery when the
> engine is running, its supplied by the alternator.

Does the unwashed Scottish wanker's taste THAT good, senile Rodent? He'll
certainly climax soon with your help, senile Ozzie cretin! LOL

--
MrTu...@down.the.farm about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID: <ps10v9$uo2$1...@gioia.aioe.org>

[Commander Kinsey]

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:18:56 +0100, trader_4 <tra...@optonline.net> wrote:

> On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 4:54:51 PM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:
>> Commander Kinsey <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote
>>
>> > How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
>> > switch to trickle charge?
>>
>> From the current the battery takes.
>

> Except that the alternator doesn't know how much current is going
> into the battery and how much is being used to power the car.
> At least not in any car I've had. The alternator is tied directly
> to the battery and that common point supplies the car. The alternator
> can't switch to trickle charge either. Every one I've seen, with
> the car running normally, the voltage at the alternator/battery is
> about 13.5 - 14V

I used to think the same, until someone in one of these newsgroups (on another topic about 6 months ago) said it drops the voltage or it would wear out the battery on long journeys. I tested my own car, by leaving the lights on for a bit, then starting it. The voltage was about 14.4. It dropped to 13.8 after the battery was filled up. The regulator must have detected the battery was full somehow and lowered the charging voltage.

Mind you after some googling, apparently a lead acid is happy being charged from 13.8 to 14.5 continuously. Although when I used to leave my car on a charger (an old Bradex car battery charger) at 14.5, it fucked the battery after a few months. Maybe 14.5 is only ok in a car alternator circuit, which isn't usually running 24 hours a day. I think I'll always make sure it's 13.8 if it's on charge all the time - my car tends to randomly lose battery power overnight (to the alarm I believe). I was just wondering if I bought an intelligent car battery charger, whether it would ever switch down to trickle if the alarm was sucking juice, as such a charger may not expect any load. I currently have it connected to a bench supply at 13.8.

[Max Demian]

The voltage perhaps.

--
Max Demian

[Peeler]

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian, another brain dead,
troll-feeding senile asshole, blathered:


> The voltage perhaps.

What kind of a troll-feeding asshole are YOU?

[Commander Kinsey]

Why would the voltage change? That's determined by the alternator or charger. Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to charge the battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the charger can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery and power any connected loads. If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same. If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it know if the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full and there's a 10 amp load?

[Rod Speed]

"Commander Kinsey" <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:op.z3q6m...@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...

> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:54:38 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Commander Kinsey <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote
>>
>>> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
>>> switch to trickle charge?
>>
>> From the current the battery takes.
>>
>>> I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery
>>> is
>>> on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there is
>>> in a running car?
>>
>> You just look at the current going to the battery. The variably
>> loads like with lights isnt supplied by the battery when the
>> engine is running, its supplied by the alternator.

> But how can the regulator on the alternator possibly know the current it's
> passing to the battery is going into the battery and not going straight
> across to the lights?

The computer knows whats going to the battery and you can see that with an
ODB2 dongle.

> If you look at the battery in your car, there are two or three thick wires
> coming off each terminal. One will go to the alternator, another to the
> fusebox for all the lights etc.

And it's the voltage across the one going from the alternator to the battery
that allows the computer to know how much current is going to the battery.

> Unless there's some clever circuitry monitoring each battery wire
> individually and subtracting the currents,

Yes there is, its called the computer.

> the alternator can't tell the difference between a battery taking 12 amps,
> and a battery taking 2 amps plus lights taking 10 amps.

But the computer can. And knows if the lights are on too.

[Commander Kinsey]

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:39:34 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> "Commander Kinsey" <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote in message
> news:op.z3q6m...@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
>> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:54:38 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Commander Kinsey <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote
>>>
>>>> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
>>>> switch to trickle charge?
>>>
>>> From the current the battery takes.
>>>
>>>> I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery
>>>> is
>>>> on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there is
>>>> in a running car?
>>>
>>> You just look at the current going to the battery. The variably
>>> loads like with lights isnt supplied by the battery when the
>>> engine is running, its supplied by the alternator.
>
>> But how can the regulator on the alternator possibly know the current it's
>> passing to the battery is going into the battery and not going straight
>> across to the lights?
>
> The computer knows whats going to the battery and you can see that with an
> ODB2 dongle.

My dongle only lists faults.

>> If you look at the battery in your car, there are two or three thick wires
>> coming off each terminal. One will go to the alternator, another to the
>> fusebox for all the lights etc.
>
> And it's the voltage across the one going from the alternator to the battery
> that allows the computer to know how much current is going to the battery.

Bullshit. How could it possibly know if the current flows into the battery or goes to the other wire leading to the fusebox?

>> Unless there's some clever circuitry monitoring each battery wire
>> individually and subtracting the currents,
>
> Yes there is, its called the computer.

So what happened with older cars before they did that?

[Peeler]

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 08:39:34 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

> The computer knows

The troll knows how to bait all you senile assholes successfully, senile
asshole!

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID: <ev1p6ml7ywd5$.d...@sqwertz.com>

[Rod Speed]

"Commander Kinsey" <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote in message

news:op.z3q9f...@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...

> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian <max_d...@bigfoot.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
>>> switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
>>> charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
>>> changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?
>>
>> The voltage perhaps.

> Why would the voltage change?

That's the way batterys work, the battery voltage does change as its
charged.

> That's determined by the alternator or charger.

Nope.

> Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to charge the
> battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the charger
> can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery and power
> any connected loads.

Its more complicated than that with the current going to the battery and the
battery is charged.

> If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current
> when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.

No it doesn't even with a very crude battery charger.

> If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it know if
> the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full and
> there's a 10 amp load?

By checking the current actually being delivered to the battery.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 08:57:52 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

>

> That's the way batterys work

That's the way how your and his trolling work, you senile asshole troll!

--
Bod addressing senile Rot:
"Rod, you have a sick twisted mind. I suggest you stop your mindless
and totally irresponsible talk. Your mouth could get you into a lot of
trouble."
Message-ID: <gfbb94...@mid.individual.net>

[Rod Speed]

"Commander Kinsey" <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote in message

news:op.z3rau...@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...

Because it's a steaming turd with wheels frog car.

Most show all sorts of things.

>>> If you look at the battery in your car, there are two or three thick
>>> wires
>>> coming off each terminal. One will go to the alternator, another to the
>>> fusebox for all the lights etc.
>>
>> And it's the voltage across the one going from the alternator to the
>> battery
>> that allows the computer to know how much current is going to the
>> battery.

> Bullshit.

We'll see...

> How could it possibly know if the current flows into the battery or goes
> to the other wire leading to the fusebox?

By measuring the voltage drop across those cables, stupid.

>>> Unless there's some clever circuitry monitoring each
>> battery wire individually and subtracting the currents,

>> Yes there is, its called the computer.

> So what happened with older cars before they did that?

The voltage across the battery changes as the battery is charged.

[Commander Kinsey]

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:57:52 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> "Commander Kinsey" <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote in message
> news:op.z3q9f...@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
>> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian <max_d...@bigfoot.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
>>>> switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
>>>> charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
>>>> changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?
>>>
>>> The voltage perhaps.
>
>> Why would the voltage change?
>
> That's the way batterys work, the battery voltage does change as its
> charged.
>
>> That's determined by the alternator or charger.
>
> Nope.

Yip. I can put any voltage I like across a battery's terminals. The battery then chooses how much current is drawn.

>> Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to charge the
>> battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the charger
>> can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery and power
>> any connected loads.
>
> Its more complicated than that with the current going to the battery and the
> battery is charged.
>
>> If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current
>> when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.
>
> No it doesn't even with a very crude battery charger.

For example, I'm currently keeping my car's battery topped up with a bench supply overnight. It's set to 13.8V, with a current limiter only to prevent overloading the supply. The voltage stays at 13.8V all the time, sometimes 100mA is drawn, sometimes up to 4A. The only way I or the supply can tell the battery is full, is by the current dropping to 100mA. But it's actually always full, as when 4A is drawn, that's going to a load.

>> If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it know if
>> the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full and
>> there's a 10 amp load?
>
> By checking the current actually being delivered to the battery.

I guess that may be true, if the car's computer has two ammeters and subtracts one from the other. But AFAIK, the alternator regulator only works by it's own current sensor. And that current could be going into the battery, or past it to the loads.

[Commander Kinsey]

Which should adhere to the fucking OBD standards according to the frog's own EU regs!!

And a very basic OBD reader I bought to determine why a warning light was on.

> Most show all sorts of things.
>
>>>> If you look at the battery in your car, there are two or three thick
>>>> wires
>>>> coming off each terminal. One will go to the alternator, another to the
>>>> fusebox for all the lights etc.
>>>
>>> And it's the voltage across the one going from the alternator to the
>>> battery that allows the computer to know how much current is going to the
>>> battery.
>
>> Bullshit.
>
> We'll see...
>
>> How could it possibly know if the current flows into the battery or goes
>> to the other wire leading to the fusebox?
>
> By measuring the voltage drop across those cables, stupid.
>
>>>> Unless there's some clever circuitry monitoring each
>>> battery wire individually and subtracting the currents,
>
>>> Yes there is, its called the computer.
>
>> So what happened with older cars before they did that?
>
> The voltage across the battery changes as the battery is charged.

Wrong. Say the alternator can produce 14V at up to 50 amps. When the battery has been used to start the car and perhaps run some lights when the engine was off, it takes maybe 25A, and the voltage is 14V, regulated by the alternator's circuitry. When the battery becomes full, it takes only a fraction of an amp, but the voltage is still 14V. What needs to be measured is the current going into the battery, and that cannot be done by just measuring the current coming from the alternator, as that could also be going to lights, heaters, spark plugs, etc, etc.

[Colonel Edmund J. Burke]

On 6/21/2019 1:19 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to switch to trickle charge?  I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Alternators are not lead acid.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 09:26:13 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the two clinically insane asshole's latest trollshit unread>


--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"Shit you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID: <ogoa38$pul$1...@news.mixmin.net>

[Rod Speed]

"Commander Kinsey" <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote in message

news:op.z3rc1...@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...

> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:57:52 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> "Commander Kinsey" <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote in message
>> news:op.z3q9f...@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
>>> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian <max_d...@bigfoot.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
>>>>> switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
>>>>> charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
>>>>> changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?
>>>>
>>>> The voltage perhaps.
>>
>>> Why would the voltage change?
>>
>> That's the way batterys work, the battery voltage does change as its
>> charged.
>>
>>> That's determined by the alternator or charger.
>>
>> Nope.
>
> Yip.

Nope.

> I can put any voltage I like across a battery's terminals.

Nope.

> The battery then chooses how much current is drawn.

And that current changes depending on the how charged the battery is.

>>> Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to charge
>>> the
>>> battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the charger
>>> can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery and
>>> power
>>> any connected loads.
>>
>> Its more complicated than that with the current going to the battery and
>> the
>> battery is charged.
>>
>>> If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current
>>> when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.
>>
>> No it doesn't even with a very crude battery charger.

> For example, I'm currently keeping my car's battery topped up with a bench
> supply overnight. It's set to 13.8V, with a current limiter only to
> prevent overloading the supply.

It actually specify the current being supplied.

> The voltage stays at 13.8V all the time, sometimes 100mA is drawn,
> sometimes up to 4A. The only way I or the supply can tell the battery is
> full, is by the current dropping to 100mA. But it's actually always full,
> as when 4A is drawn, that's going to a load.

What load ? There no load with a battery being charged with a bench supply.

>>> If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it know
>>> if the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full
>>> and there's a 10 amp load?

>> By checking the current actually being delivered to the battery.

> I guess that may be true, if the car's computer has two ammeters

It has more than one wire to the positive terminal of the battery.
So it can see what current is going to the rest of the car.

> and subtracts one from the other. But AFAIK, the alternator regulator
> only works by it's own current sensor. And that current could be going
> into the battery, or past it to the loads.

Not when there is more than one wire going to the
positive terminal of the battery, and there always is.

[Rod Speed]

"Commander Kinsey" <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote in message

news:op.z3rc8...@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...

Steaming turd frog cars don't work like that.

> And a very basic OBD reader I bought to determine why a warning light was
> on.

Should still show that other stuff.

>> Most show all sorts of things.
>>
>>>>> If you look at the battery in your car, there are two or three thick
>>>>> wires
>>>>> coming off each terminal. One will go to the alternator, another to
>>>>> the
>>>>> fusebox for all the lights etc.
>>>>
>>>> And it's the voltage across the one going from the alternator to the
>>>> battery that allows the computer to know how much current is going to
>>>> the
>>>> battery.
>>
>>> Bullshit.
>>
>> We'll see...
>>
>>> How could it possibly know if the current flows into the battery or goes
>>> to the other wire leading to the fusebox?
>>
>> By measuring the voltage drop across those cables, stupid.
>>
>>>>> Unless there's some clever circuitry monitoring each
>>>> battery wire individually and subtracting the currents,
>>
>>>> Yes there is, its called the computer.
>>
>>> So what happened with older cars before they did that?
>>
>> The voltage across the battery changes as the battery is charged.
>
> Wrong.

Nope,

> Say the alternator can produce 14V at up to 50 amps. When the battery has
> been used to start the car and perhaps run some lights when the engine was
> off, it takes maybe 25A, and the voltage is 14V,

Yes.

> regulated by the alternator's circuitry.

Nope, buy the battery, and you can prove that with the bench supply.

> When the battery becomes full, it takes only a fraction of an amp,

Yep, because the battery voltage has risen.

> but the voltage is still 14V.

Nope, and you previously said it wasn't.

> What needs to be measured is the current going into the battery,

That's what the computer does.

> and that cannot be done by just measuring the current coming from the
> alternator,

Yes, that's why there is more than one wire on the battery positive
terminal.

> as that could also be going to lights, heaters, spark plugs, etc, etc.

Yes, that's why there is more than one wire on the battery positive
terminal.

[Rod Speed]

"Commander Kinsey" <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote in message

news:op.z3rc8...@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...

Steaming turd with wheels frog cars don't. And that isnt an EU reg anyway.

> And a very basic OBD reader I bought to determine why a warning light was
> on.

That will still show more than just faults.

>> Most show all sorts of things.
>>
>>>>> If you look at the battery in your car, there are two or three thick
>>>>> wires
>>>>> coming off each terminal. One will go to the alternator, another to
>>>>> the
>>>>> fusebox for all the lights etc.
>>>>
>>>> And it's the voltage across the one going from the alternator to the
>>>> battery that allows the computer to know how much current is going to
>>>> the
>>>> battery.
>>
>>> Bullshit.
>>
>> We'll see...
>>
>>> How could it possibly know if the current flows into the battery or goes
>>> to the other wire leading to the fusebox?
>>
>> By measuring the voltage drop across those cables, stupid.
>>
>>>>> Unless there's some clever circuitry monitoring each
>>>> battery wire individually and subtracting the currents,
>>
>>>> Yes there is, its called the computer.
>>
>>> So what happened with older cars before they did that?
>>
>> The voltage across the battery changes as the battery is charged.
>
> Wrong.

Nope.

> Say the alternator can produce 14V at up to 50 amps. When the battery has
> been used to start the car and perhaps run some lights when the engine was
> off, it takes maybe 25A, and the voltage is 14V,

Yep.

> regulated by the alternator's circuitry.

Nope, by the battery.

> When the battery becomes full, it takes only a fraction of an amp,

Yep, because the battery voltage is now higher.

> but the voltage is still 14V.

The battery voltage isnt.

> What needs to be measured is the current going into the battery,

Nope, the current drops automatically.

> and that cannot be done by just measuring the current coming from the
> alternator, as that could also be going to lights, heaters, spark plugs,
> etc, etc.

That's why there is more than one wire to the battery positive terminal.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Definitely. One of the simplest ways to msake a vcarger is to have a
constant voltage source in series with somem form of resistor. As the
terminal voltage rises so too does the charge current drop.

The problem that brings is when a heavy cirrent is siltanoeusly drawn
from the battery.

Which is why car alternator control is a little more spohisticated than
that.


--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

Dennis Miller

[Peeler]

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 09:26:13 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

> We'll see...

We'll see YOU trolling on these groups like there was no tomorrow, you
85-year-old senile pest!

--
Keema Nam addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You are now exposed as a liar, as well as an ignorant troll."
"MID: <0001HW.22B654E700...@news.giganews.com>"

[Peeler]

<FLUSH another 142 !!! lines of absolutel trollshit unread again>

--
gfre...@aol.com addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bullshitter who demonstrates
your particular prowess at it every day."
MID: <rufg9ep6ggjdt3uek...@4ax.com>

[Peeler]

<FLUSH another 137 !!! lines of the two asshole trolls' latest trollshit

[Peeler]

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 09:57:57 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the two prize idiots' endless trollshit>

> Not when there is more than one wire going to the
> positive terminal of the battery, and there always is.

In auto-contradicting mode again, you clinically insane auto-contradicting
senile asshole? <G>

[Xeno]

Nope, the alternator regulator is sensing only *voltage*.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

[Xeno]

Correction - the *battery* is the *load*. In the process of being
charged it is using electric current. That makes it the load. Even when
it is fully charged it will still take a trickle charge so it is still a
load even when fully charged.

>
>>>> If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it
>>>> know if the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery
>>>> is full and there's a 10 amp load?
>
>>> By checking the current actually being delivered to the battery.
>
>> I guess that may be true, if the car's computer has two ammeters
>
> It has more than one wire to the positive terminal of the battery.
> So it can see what current is going to the rest of the car.
>
>> and subtracts one from the other.   But AFAIK, the alternator
>> regulator only works by it's own current sensor.  And that current
>> could be going into the battery, or past it to the loads.
>
> Not when there is more than one wire going to the
> positive terminal of the battery, and there always is.

[Rod Speed]

"Xeno" <xeno...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:gn6a5e...@mid.individual.net...

Nope.

> the *battery* is the *load*.

Not when the battery is fully charges and is being charged
with a bench supply that is delivering 4A to the battery.

> In the process of being charged it is using electric current. That makes
> it the load.

See above.

> Even when it is fully charged it will still take a trickle charge

4A isnt a trickle charge.

> so it is still a load even when fully charged.

Not when its still taking 4A,

[Brian Gaff]

Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15 volts,
but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know and
these days, I'm sure the direction of current flow and voltages are
monitored very well by the computers. In the old days it was a bit of a
black art just relying on the ability of the alternator or dynamo in the old
bangers.
Normally the output will change due to engine speed, but in alternators
there is a voltage regulator inbuilt to keep the thing pretty nominal and
of course the thing that then suffers is the charging rate, ie its going to
be be slower when its not running very fast. I think if a battery dips below
about 11v outside of starter transients, you have to charge it or get a new
one. This very accurate sensing these days can often mask a battery on its
last legs though, as people tend to ignore warnings if the car still works,
then they leave it a couple of days and it won't start!

Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:gn4ugm...@mid.individual.net...
> Commander Kinsey <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote

>
>> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
>> switch to trickle charge?
>

> From the current the battery takes.
>

>> I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery is
>> on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there is
>> in a running car?
>

[Peeler]

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:58:32 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

>

>> Correction
>
> Nope.

LOL Clinically insane 85-year-old senile pest!

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing senile Rot:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID: <XnsA97071CF43...@85.214.115.223>

[Rod Speed]

Brian Gaff <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote

> Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
> volts, but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know

They are a bit higher than that just after being charged.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:15:56 +1000, Xeno, another brain damaged,
troll-feeding, senile Australian idiot, blathered:

>
> Nope, the alternator regulator is sensing only *voltage*.

Nope, it's the Scottish wanker sensing that he can have all you senile
troll-feeding idiots on, time and again! <BG>

[Peeler]

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:11:33 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

> They are a bit higher than that just after being charged.

You ALWAYS have to go one better, eh, you abnormal senile asshole? Can't you
see that that's the very reason why you got NO ONE in real life to talk to?
<BG>

[Xeno]

Take the case of an alternator charging a battery at ~4 amps. The
battery is the load and it also provides, as part of that function, the
reference *voltage* that the alternator *must have* in order to control
the output.

>
>> In the process of being charged it is using electric current. That
>> makes it the load.
>
> See above.

What happens to the charger when you disconnect the power with the
battery connected? It should, if designed correctly, shut down since it
no longer sees a load. Otherwise it may destroy itself.

>
>> Even when it is fully charged it will still take a trickle charge
>
> 4A isnt a trickle charge.

That depends entirely on the amp hour rating of the battery.
Also, my bench charger will start off at 4 amps, its maximum capacity.
As the battery becomes charged, that current will drop down to *1 amp*
and, from that point, it will maintain a *trickle charge*.
From Wikipedia;
For lead-acid batteries under no load float charging (such as
in SLI batteries), trickle charging happens naturally at the
end-of-charge, when the lead-acid battery internal resistance
to the charging current increases enough to reduce additional
charging current to a trickle, hence the name. In such cases,
the trickle charging equals the energy expended by the
lead-acid battery splitting the water in the electrolyte into
hydrogen and oxygen gases

The car alternator regulator is no different. It sees the battery as a
load, determines the voltage reference and pumps up its output. When the
regulator sees the battery voltage at the peak setpoint, it too will
drop the current to a trickle. If you add a load, say by turning
headlights on, that is in *parallel* to the battery and it will drop the
system voltage down a tad. The regulator will see that and pump up the
output current appropriately. The current will apportion itself to the
*two* loads as appropriate to their individual internal resistances.

Here, educate yourself;
https://www.swtc.edu/ag_power/electrical/lecture/parallel_circuits.htm

>
>> so it is still a load even when fully charged.
>
> Not when its still taking 4A,

If the battery is *taking* 4 amps, then it *is definitely the load*.

>
>>>>>> If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it
>>>>>> know if the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the
>>>>>> battery is full and there's a 10 amp load?
>>>
>>>>> By checking the current actually being delivered to the battery.
>>>
>>>> I guess that may be true, if the car's computer has two ammeters
>>>
>>> It has more than one wire to the positive terminal of the battery.
>>> So it can see what current is going to the rest of the car.
>>>
>>>> and subtracts one from the other.   But AFAIK, the alternator
>>>> regulator only works by it's own current sensor.  And that current
>>>> could be going into the battery, or past it to the loads.
>>>
>>> Not when there is more than one wire going to the
>>> positive terminal of the battery, and there always is.
>
>

[Mr Pounder Esquire]

Commander Kinsey wrote:
> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
> switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
> charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
> changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Asks the unemployable wanker/troll with a 20 year old worthless degree and a
stated IQ of 138. Odd that a few years ago your stated IQ was 142.

[Xeno]

On 22/6/19 8:00 pm, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15 volts,
> but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know and

A 12 Volt lead acid battery will show 13.2 volts straight off the
charger, about 2.2 volts per cell. That will drop to about 12.7 volts
after a day or so, a tad over 2.1 volts per cell.

On the other hand, a vehicle's nominal *system voltage* is 14 Volts.
That's because the *alternator typically operates in the 13.8-14.2 range.

Due to increasing loads on vehicle electrical equipment, manufacturers
were pushing to a nominal 42 Volt electrical system on cars. They were
to be equipped with a 36 Volt battery. It may not happen now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42-volt_electrical_system

> these days, I'm sure the direction of current flow and voltages are
> monitored very well by the computers. In the old days it was a bit of a
> black art just relying on the ability of the alternator or dynamo in the old
> bangers.
> Normally the output will change due to engine speed, but in alternators
> there is a voltage regulator inbuilt to keep the thing pretty nominal and
> of course the thing that then suffers is the charging rate, ie its going to
> be be slower when its not running very fast. I think if a battery dips below
> about 11v outside of starter transients, you have to charge it or get a new
> one. This very accurate sensing these days can often mask a battery on its
> last legs though, as people tend to ignore warnings if the car still works,
> then they leave it a couple of days and it won't start!
>
> Brian
>

Most batteries fail gracefully as they progressively lose *capacity*.
The first sign of impending doom is a lack of gusto on the first turn of
the engine on the first cold start of the day. Batteries don't like cold
weather, their chemistry just isn't happy. The rest of the day they will
start pretty much as normal. Most people however aren't as attuned to
this so fail to observe that subtle change. It won't get better however
and it will eventually be noticeable by all and sundry as it will, one
slightly colder morning, fail to start the car at all.

[Rod Speed]

"Xeno" <xeno...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message

news:gn6eud...@mid.individual.net...

>> Not when the battery is fully charged and is being charged

>> with a bench supply that is delivering 4A to the battery.
>
> Take the case of an alternator charging a battery at ~4 amps.

That isnt what was being discussed there. What was being discussed
there was charging the battery out of the car with a bench supply.

> The battery is the load and it also provides, as part of that function,
> the reference *voltage* that the alternator *must have* in order to
> control the output.

None of that is relevant to what was being discussed there,
charging the battery out of the car with a bench supply.

>>> In the process of being charged it is using electric current. That makes
>>> it the load.

>> See above.

> What happens to the charger when you disconnect the power with the battery
> connected?

With a BENCH SUPPLY, it continues to provide the
same voltage as it did with the battery connected.

> It should, if designed correctly, shut down since it no longer sees a
> load. Otherwise it may destroy itself.

That is just plain wrong with a BENCH SUPPLY.
None of those destroy themselves with no load.

>>> Even when it is fully charged it will still take a trickle charge

>> 4A isnt a trickle charge.

> That depends entirely on the amp hour rating of the battery.

We're discussing a normal car battery in a steaming turd with
wheels frog car.

> Also, my bench charger

We arent discussing a bench charger, we are discussing a bench SUPPLY.

> will start off at 4 amps, its maximum capacity. As the battery becomes
> charged, that current will drop down to *1 amp* and, from that point, it
> will maintain a *trickle charge*.

So that is nothing like the situation being discussed
with a BENCH SUPPLY which is still delivering 4A to
a battery that has been removed from the car.

> From Wikipedia;
> For lead-acid batteries under no load float charging (such as
> in SLI batteries), trickle charging happens naturally at the
> end-of-charge, when the lead-acid battery internal resistance
> to the charging current increases enough to reduce additional
> charging current to a trickle, hence the name. In such cases,
> the trickle charging equals the energy expended by the
> lead-acid battery splitting the water in the electrolyte into
> hydrogen and oxygen gases

Irrelevant to what is being discussed, 4A isnt a trickle charge.

> The car alternator regulator is no different.

We arent discussing that there.

> It sees the battery as a load, determines the voltage reference and pumps
> up its output. When the regulator sees the battery voltage at the peak
> setpoint, it too will drop the current to a trickle. If you add a load,
> say by turning headlights on, that is in *parallel* to the battery and it
> will drop the system voltage down a tad. The regulator will see that and
> pump up the output current appropriately. The current will apportion
> itself to the *two* loads as appropriate to their individual internal
> resistances.

All irrelevant to charging a battery out of the car with a BENCH SUPPLY.

> Here, educate yourself;
> https://www.swtc.edu/ag_power/electrical/lecture/parallel_circuits.htm

I knew all that before you were even born, thanks.

>>> so it is still a load even when fully charged.

>> Not when its still taking 4A,

> If the battery is *taking* 4 amps, then it *is definitely the load*.

But it wont be taking 4A WHEN THE BATTERY IS OUT OF THE
CAR WITH A BENCH SUPPLY. Because the battery voltage will
have risen once it has been charged so the original 4A will
have dropped significantly WITH A BENCH SUPPLY.

[TMS320]

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
> switch to trickle charge?

It doesn't.

> I can understand it noticing a drop in
> charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
> changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Ohm's law.

[Bod]

>> Here, educate yourself;
>> https://www.swtc.edu/ag_power/electrical/lecture/parallel_circuits.htm
>
> I knew all that before you were even born, thanks.
>
>>>> so it is still a load even when fully charged.
>
>>> Not when its still taking 4A,
>
>> If the battery is *taking* 4 amps, then it *is definitely the load*.
>
> But it wont be taking 4A WHEN THE BATTERY IS OUT OF THE
> CAR WITH A BENCH SUPPLY. Because the battery voltage will
> have risen once it has been charged so the original 4A will
> have dropped significantly WITH A BENCH SUPPLY.
>
>>>>>>>> If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does
>>>>>>>> it know if the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the
>>>>>>>> battery is full and there's a 10 amp load?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> By checking the current actually being delivered to the battery.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess that may be true, if the car's computer has two ammeters
>>>>>
>>>>> It has more than one wire to the positive terminal of the battery.
>>>>> So it can see what current is going to the rest of the car.
>>>>>
>>>>>> and subtracts one from the other.   But AFAIK, the alternator
>>>>>> regulator only works by it's own current sensor.  And that current
>>>>>> could be going into the battery, or past it to the loads.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not when there is more than one wire going to the
>>>>> positive terminal of the battery, and there always is.
>

> No they aren't, unless one has been added.


--
Bod

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Peeler]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 01:30:41 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH another 209 !!! lines of senile bullshit unread again>

--
Sqwertz to Rodent Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID: <ev1p6ml7ywd5$.d...@sqwertz.com>

[Commander Kinsey]

Modern car alternators seem to be able to give out a huge amount of current at engine idle speed. I'm sure my friend got his to give out pretty much the full 80 amps without revving the engine. He was powering a small disco on a campsite :-)

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:11:33 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Brian Gaff <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote
>
>> Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
>> volts, but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know
>
> They are a bit higher than that just after being charged.

Depends what voltage you were charging them with. 13.8V is the recommended voltage for a continuous charge. 14.4V for fast, and 15V for very fast. But the last two need to be stopped before boil over.

I used to have a home made solar array, with thirty old car batteries in parallel. Bad idea. One of the batteries died - it lost a cell. The other batteries immediately then charged it very quickly as it was 10V and they were 12V, and evaporated the other cells one by one. There was eventually an explosion and the battery was blasted across the garage in several pieces, with a bloody strong smell of rotten eggs.

[Commander Kinsey]

It has always been 135. And the degree is 22 years old.

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:03:08 +0100, TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
>> switch to trickle charge?
>
> It doesn't.

Mine does, if I start my car when the battery is say 80% full, the voltage will be 14.4V. After a while, something causes that voltage to drop to 13.8, because something knows the battery is full and should no longer be charged at a high rate.

>> I can understand it noticing a drop in
>> charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
>> changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?
>
> Ohm's law.

Explain how an alternator or charger can use ohm's law to distinguish between:
1) A car battery which is full, with a load of 10 amps connected to it, like two headlights.
2) A car battery with no load, which is not full yet and draws 10 amps for the charge.

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 00:57:57 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> "Commander Kinsey" <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote in message
> news:op.z3rc1...@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...

>> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:57:52 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Commander Kinsey" <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote in message
>>> news:op.z3q9f...@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
>>>> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian <max_d...@bigfoot.com>

>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to

>>>>>> switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in

>>>>>> charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
>>>>>> changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?
>>>>>

>>>>> The voltage perhaps.
>>>
>>>> Why would the voltage change?
>>>
>>> That's the way batterys work, the battery voltage does change as its
>>> charged.
>>>
>>>> That's determined by the alternator or charger.
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>
>> Yip.
>
> Nope.
>
>> I can put any voltage I like across a battery's terminals.
>
> Nope.

I can if the charger / power supply is powerful enough.

>> The battery then chooses how much current is drawn.
>
> And that current changes depending on the how charged the battery is.

Correct, it's the current it checks.

>>>> Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to charge
>>>> the
>>>> battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the charger
>>>> can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery and
>>>> power
>>>> any connected loads.
>>>
>>> Its more complicated than that with the current going to the battery and
>>> the
>>> battery is charged.
>>>
>>>> If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current
>>>> when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.
>>>
>>> No it doesn't even with a very crude battery charger.
>
>> For example, I'm currently keeping my car's battery topped up with a bench
>> supply overnight. It's set to 13.8V, with a current limiter only to
>> prevent overloading the supply.
>
> It actually specify the current being supplied.

No, it LIMITS the current. I set 13.8V, 2.5A. It will back off if either is exceeded.

>> The voltage stays at 13.8V all the time, sometimes 100mA is drawn,
>> sometimes up to 4A. The only way I or the supply can tell the battery is
>> full, is by the current dropping to 100mA. But it's actually always full,
>> as when 4A is drawn, that's going to a load.
>
> What load ? There no load with a battery being charged with a bench supply.

The faulty frog car with the dodgy alarm.

[Commander Kinsey]

I believe the reason Rod mentioned load as being seperate to the battery is this thread is about my car, with a fault that draws current from the battery, and it's also connected to a bench supply. In this situation, we refer to "load" as the faulty alarm system. I originally asked how an alternator could distinguish between the battery charging, and a load such as your headlamps being on.

>>> In the process of being charged it is using electric current. That
>>> makes it the load.
>>
>> See above.
>
> What happens to the charger when you disconnect the power with the
> battery connected? It should, if designed correctly, shut down since it
> no longer sees a load. Otherwise it may destroy itself.

Bullshit. You're telling me that a bench supply with a battery on the output and no 240V input will blow up if it doesn't shut down? Wrong. Absolutely wrong. The output end of the supply (which probably ends with smoothing capacitors) is just kept at the normal output voltage by the battery.

>>> Even when it is fully charged it will still take a trickle charge
>>
>> 4A isnt a trickle charge.
>
> That depends entirely on the amp hour rating of the battery.
> Also, my bench charger will start off at 4 amps, its maximum capacity.
> As the battery becomes charged, that current will drop down to *1 amp*
> and, from that point, it will maintain a *trickle charge*.

How fucking big is that battery?! When I charge a 60Ah lead acid at 13.8V, it drops to about 150mA when full.

> From Wikipedia;
> For lead-acid batteries under no load float charging (such as
> in SLI batteries), trickle charging happens naturally at the
> end-of-charge, when the lead-acid battery internal resistance
> to the charging current increases enough to reduce additional
> charging current to a trickle, hence the name. In such cases,
> the trickle charging equals the energy expended by the
> lead-acid battery splitting the water in the electrolyte into
> hydrogen and oxygen gases

Trouble is you might want to do a bulk charge first, at 14.4V.

> The car alternator regulator is no different. It sees the battery as a
> load, determines the voltage reference and pumps up its output.

All it can do is supply a certain voltage. 13.8V is safe. If it uses 14.4V or higher, it has to know when to back off to 13.8. It cannot do that if there is an external current draw like headlamp, as it won't know if they're switched on, or if the battery is drawing that current.

> When the
> regulator sees the battery voltage at the peak setpoint,

You can't tell a battery is full by voltage. You can only tell by it drawing less current. The voltage is determined by the charger.

> it too will
> drop the current to a trickle.

Actually it drops the voltage, to 13.8. I used to have a solar battery regulator which had very detailed instructions saying how it worked. It took the voltage of the solar cells and altered it up or down a bit to suit the battery condition.

> If you add a load, say by turning
> headlights on, that is in *parallel* to the battery and it will drop the
> system voltage down a tad. The regulator will see that and pump up the
> output current appropriately. The current will apportion itself to the
> *two* loads as appropriate to their individual internal resistances.

But it can't tell the difference between current going to the lights and to the battery.

[Rod Speed]

Commander Kinsey <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote

> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Brian Gaff <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote

>>> Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
>>> volts, but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I
>>> know

>> They are a bit higher than that just after being charged.

> Depends what voltage you were charging them with.

We're discussing cars.

> 13.8V is the recommended voltage for a continuous charge.

That's wrong too.

> 14.4V for fast, and 15V for very fast.

And so is that.

> But the last two need to be stopped before boil over.

> I used to have a home made solar array, with thirty old car batteries in
> parallel. Bad idea. One of the batteries died - it lost a cell. The
> other batteries immediately then charged it very quickly as it was 10V and
> they were 12V, and evaporated the other cells one by one.

Trivially easy to avoid that.

> There was eventually an explosion

That was the hydrogen you stupidly didn't get rid of.

[Xeno]

If you have a battery connected to a bench supply, it is still the load
because it will always be taking *some* current. If it is taking 4 amps
it is definitely loading the BENCH SUPPLY.

>
>>>>>>>> If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does
>>>>>>>> it know if the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the
>>>>>>>> battery is full and there's a 10 amp load?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> By checking the current actually being delivered to the battery.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess that may be true, if the car's computer has two ammeters
>>>>>
>>>>> It has more than one wire to the positive terminal of the battery.
>>>>> So it can see what current is going to the rest of the car.
>>>>>
>>>>>> and subtracts one from the other.   But AFAIK, the alternator
>>>>>> regulator only works by it's own current sensor.  And that current
>>>>>> could be going into the battery, or past it to the loads.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not when there is more than one wire going to the
>>>>> positive terminal of the battery, and there always is.
>
>

[Xeno]

That's a bit *deep* for some people to comprehend.

[Rod Speed]

"Xeno" <xeno...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message

news:gn84kj...@mid.individual.net...

It wont be taking 4A when charged unless
you have completely fucked up the voltage.

[Xeno]

On 23/6/19 5:47 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> Modern car alternators seem to be able to give out a huge amount of
> current at engine idle speed.  I'm sure my friend got his to give out
> pretty much the full 80 amps without revving the engine.  He was
> powering a small disco on a campsite :-)

No way to get a full 80 amps out of an alternator *at idle*.

[Peeler]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 10:02:37 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

>

> We're discussing cars.

We're discussing your and his clinical insanity, whenever one you opens his
stupid perverted gob!

[Peeler]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 16:07:14 +1000, Xeno, another brain damaged,

troll-feeding, senile Australian idiot, blathered:

>

> No way to get a full 80 amps out of an alternator *at idle*.

Every way for him to get YOU to suck him off time and again, every time he
wants to be sucked off by one of you seniles infesting these groups! <BG>

[Peeler]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 12:59:55 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

> It wont be taking 4A when charged unless
> you have completely fucked up the voltage.

You clinically insane auto-contradicting asshole disagree? Well, that's a
novelty! LMAO!

--
Keema Nam addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You are now exposed as a liar, as well as an ignorant troll."
"MID: <0001HW.22B654E700...@news.giganews.com>"

[Peeler]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 11:57:35 +1000, Xeno, another brain damaged,

troll-feeding, senile Australian idiot, blathered:

> If you have a battery

Shove your battery up your arse, that will keep you quiet for a while, you
endlessly blathering senile idiot!

[Peeler]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 12:59:55 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH another 223 !!! lines of the two senile Ozzie cretin's latest sick
shit>

[Peeler]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 12:07:05 +1000, Xeno, another brainless, troll-feeding,
senile Australian idiot, blathered:

>> Ohm's law.
>
> That's a bit *deep* for some people to comprehend.

Like you being unable to comprehend that you've turned into another
miserable troll-feeding brainless senile asshole? <BG>

[Mr Pounder Esquire]

My mistake.

"I have an IQ of 140".
"I am seldom wrong".
(Peter Hucker)

"I have driven a Ford Sierra 1.6 at 90mph on single track roads
> with passing places in the NW of Scotland. Fucking great fun"!
>
> "Vauxhalls and Fords are mass produced. VWs are engineered".
>
> "I am proud of being nicked 10 times, and even prouder of talking my
> way out of twice that number of offences".
> "Make that 12. 9 speeding offences, 2 seatbelts, and 1 unroadworthy
> vehicle".
>
> On rape:
> "What is wrong is raping someone. It doesn't matter if they are an
> adult or a child".
> "The problem there is our prudishness. People ought to have sex with
> everyone all the time".
>
> On Jimmy Savile:
> "If he had done it against their will, they would have come forwards
> earlier. The fact that they didn't suggests either he did nothing at
> all, or the children liked it".
>
> "Journalists are not human".
>
> "I don't give a shit about the law".
> "Fuck the law".
> "It's only illegal is you get caught".
> "Something being illegal does not matter".
> "The law is irrelevant".
>
> "I am honest".
> "Theft is illegal".
> "When I was 11 I stole candles from a church".
>
> "I have never found out the purpose of underpants".
>
> "Women are inferior".
> "Crying is unnecessary and pathetic. So is screaming. Why do women
> scream when they're frightened? Perhaps they realise they're
> inferior and are calling for the nearest man"?
>
> "I believe that UFOs have visited us but not in recent times".
> "I don't believe in UFOs".
> "When someone says "UFO", they do not mean 4000 years ago. Then they
> would just be "FO" as they hadn't invented flying yet".
>
> "My IQ is superiour to that of most people".
> "I am inferior in some ways but superior in other ways".
> "I admit I should not have been born".
> "Jobs are for sheeple".
>
> "Some men are hot".
>
> "I can sleep outside in a temperature of -20C wearing only shorts".
>
> "I once took a dump behind some bushes and slid down a hill to wipe my
> arse".
>
> "I do not post waffling bullshit or childish insults".
> "He is indeed very stupid, and easy to make fun of".
>
> "I am currently eating a sandwich made with bread that has been in my
> fridge THREE WEEKS past the sell by date. It is not dry, it is not
> mouldy, it is identical to the day I bought it".
>
> "And there's nothing wrong with jumping red lights if you don't cause
> an accident"
>
> "I don't want to drive at the speed limit. It's absurdly slow and in
> fact I find it more dangerous. It's so tedious I'm in danger of
> falling asleep. "Whoever made up the limits must have a really slow
> brain". "I think it's stupid to follow a law which is baseless. The
> law on red lights is to stop you hitting someone. If there is
> nobody there, you cannot hit them".
>
> "If the guy behind me has his lights on too bright. I let him past
> then tailgate him with my full beam on until he switches his off".
>
> "I like driving fast and scaring people".
>
> "People who don't know how to shave don't know how to behave."
>
> On mental health:
> "Being sectioned just means you are different from others, it doesn't
> mean you are wrong".
>
> "If I wanted you to stab me with a knife and kill me, you should not
> get into trouble for it".
> "I would kill my sister if I thought I'd get away with it".
> "I'm not what most people think of as human".
>
> "I have an IQ of 140".
> "I am seldom wrong".
> "There is no reason the data stored in our heads cannot be
> transferred".
> "I will not accept money from my neighbours for doing them a favour"
> "My neighbour just paid me £40 to brush moss off the roof of her porch
> extension. It took me 10 minutes."
>
> "Pain is not harmful. The victim may well want rid of it, but it's no
> reason for anyone to rush there".
>
> "Dogs are supposed to live in packs of other dogs, running wild. Not
> sat in a house all day".
>
> "We should be allowed to do as we wish within reason. For example":
> "Smoke weed in a public place, drive as fast as we like, and do both
> of those stark naked. Oh and fuck in public".
>
> "Careful drivers tend to get in my way".
>
> "I can only predict two minutes into the future".
>
>
>
>> Sociopath.
>> http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html
> "As I've told you before, that's quite normal. It's just not prim and
> proper like you, you silly snob".

[Xeno]

On 23/6/19 9:24 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:41:15 +0100, Xeno <xeno...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

>>>
>>>> the *battery* is the *load*.
>>>
>>> Not when the battery is fully charges and is being charged
>>> with a bench supply that is delivering 4A to the battery.
>>
>> Take the case of an alternator charging a battery at ~4 amps. The
>> battery is the load and it also provides, as part of that function, the
>> reference *voltage* that the alternator *must have* in order to control
>> the output.
>
> I believe the reason Rod mentioned load as being seperate to the battery
> is this thread is about my car, with a fault that draws current from the
> battery, and it's also connected to a bench supply.  In this situation,
> we refer to "load" as the faulty alarm system.  I originally asked how
> an alternator could distinguish between the battery charging, and a load
> such as your headlamps being on.
>
>>>> In the process of being charged it is using electric current. That
>>>> makes it the load.
>>>
>>> See above.
>>
>> What happens to the charger when you disconnect the power with the
>> battery connected? It should, if designed correctly, shut down since it
>> no longer sees a load. Otherwise it may destroy itself.

Ooops, got that arse about - disconnect the *battery* with the 240V
power still connected.

>
> Bullshit.  You're telling me that a bench supply with a battery on the
> output and no 240V input will blow up if it doesn't shut down?  Wrong.

The battery is the load. And I'm referring to a charger and the leads to
the battery being disconnected, not the 240V input. The same as if you
open circuit the battery on a running, and charging, alternator. It can
be done but there is a high risk of a spike zapping something. The
battery acts to dampen spikes and it's removal from the circuit exposes
the regulator and any other electronic components to spikes.

> Absolutely wrong.  The output end of the supply (which probably ends
> with smoothing capacitors) is just kept at the normal output voltage by
> the battery.

I used the term *charger* for a very good reason.

>
>>>> Even when it is fully charged it will still take a trickle charge
>>>
>>> 4A isnt a trickle charge.
>>
>> That depends entirely on the amp hour rating of the battery.
>> Also, my bench charger will start off at 4 amps, its maximum capacity.
>> As the battery becomes charged, that current will drop down to *1 amp*
>> and, from that point, it will maintain a *trickle charge*.
>
> How fucking big is that battery?!  When I charge a 60Ah lead acid at
> 13.8V, it drops to about 150mA when full.

When I was working on trucks, it wasn't unusual to see 4 x 12 Volt, 200
AH batteries wired series-parallel, so yes, 1 amp can be a trickle.

>
>>  From Wikipedia;
>>      For lead-acid batteries under no load float charging (such as
>>      in SLI batteries), trickle charging happens naturally at the
>>      end-of-charge, when the lead-acid battery internal resistance
>>      to the charging current increases enough to reduce additional
>>      charging current to a trickle, hence the name. In such cases,
>>      the trickle charging equals the energy expended by the
>>      lead-acid battery splitting the water in the electrolyte into
>>      hydrogen and oxygen gases
>
> Trouble is you might want to do a bulk charge first, at 14.4V.
>
>> The car alternator regulator is no different. It sees the battery as a
>> load, determines the voltage reference and pumps up its output.
>
> All it can do is supply a certain voltage.  13.8V is safe.  If it uses
> 14.4V or higher, it has to know when to back off to 13.8.  It cannot do
> that if there is an external current draw like headlamp, as it won't
> know if they're switched on, or if the battery is drawing that current.

The regulator has a Zener diode to *limit* the voltage. An external
current draw will lower the voltage.

>
>> When the
>> regulator sees the battery voltage at the peak setpoint,
>
> You can't tell a battery is full by voltage.  You can only tell by it
> drawing less current.  The voltage is determined by the charger.

The voltage at the battery will be determined by the battery's *internal
resistance*. As that battery's internal resistance goes higher, as it
will do as it becomes charged, the voltage will go higher and current
will reduce.

>> it too will
>> drop the current to a trickle.
>
> Actually it drops the voltage, to 13.8.  I used to have a solar battery
> regulator which had very detailed instructions saying how it worked.  It
> took the voltage of the solar cells and altered it up or down a bit to
> suit the battery condition.
>
>> If you add a load, say by turning
>> headlights on, that is in *parallel* to the battery and it will drop the
>> system voltage down a tad. The regulator will see that and pump up the
>> output current appropriately. The current will apportion itself to the
>> *two* loads as appropriate to their individual internal resistances.
>
> But it can't tell the difference between current going to the lights and
> to the battery.

It doesn't need to. All it needs to know is the aggregate current draw,
the total. That will be indicated by the voltage.

[Peeler]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 23:36:35 +1000, Xeno, another brainless, troll-feeding,
senile Australian idiot, blathered:

> Ooops, got that arse about - disconnect the *battery* with the 240V
> power still connected.

You've been warned, senile Ozzie tard!

[TMS320]

On 22/06/2019 22:58, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:03:08 +0100, TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:

>>> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
>>> switch to trickle charge?
>>
>> It doesn't.
>
> Mine does, if I start my car when the battery is say 80% full, the
> voltage will be 14.4V.  After a while, something causes that voltage to
> drop to 13.8, because something knows the battery is full and should no
> longer be charged at a high rate.
>
>>> I can understand it noticing a drop in
>>> charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
>>> changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?
>>
>> Ohm's law.
>
> Explain how an alternator or charger can use ohm's law to distinguish
> between:

To determine current, measure the voltage across a series resistor, duh.

> 1) A car battery which is full, with a load of 10 amps connected to it,
> like two headlights.
> 2) A car battery with no load, which is not full yet and draws 10 amps
> for the charge.

Two resistors?

[Peeler]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 17:27:09 +0100, TMS320, yet another brain damaged,
troll-feeding, senile asshole, blathered again:


>
> Two resistors?

Two idiots (a troll and a troll-feeding senile asshole) having a
"conversation"? <BG>

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 14:36:35 +0100, Xeno <xeno...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

> On 23/6/19 9:24 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:41:15 +0100, Xeno <xeno...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>>> the *battery* is the *load*.
>>>>
>>>> Not when the battery is fully charges and is being charged
>>>> with a bench supply that is delivering 4A to the battery.
>>>
>>> Take the case of an alternator charging a battery at ~4 amps. The
>>> battery is the load and it also provides, as part of that function, the
>>> reference *voltage* that the alternator *must have* in order to control
>>> the output.
>>
>> I believe the reason Rod mentioned load as being seperate to the battery
>> is this thread is about my car, with a fault that draws current from the
>> battery, and it's also connected to a bench supply. In this situation,
>> we refer to "load" as the faulty alarm system. I originally asked how
>> an alternator could distinguish between the battery charging, and a load
>> such as your headlamps being on.
>>
>>>>> In the process of being charged it is using electric current. That
>>>>> makes it the load.
>>>>
>>>> See above.
>>>
>>> What happens to the charger when you disconnect the power with the
>>> battery connected? It should, if designed correctly, shut down since it
>>> no longer sees a load. Otherwise it may destroy itself.
>
> Ooops, got that arse about - disconnect the *battery* with the 240V
> power still connected.

How would it destroy itself? Mine in fact just stay at 13.8V open circuit.

>> Bullshit. You're telling me that a bench supply with a battery on the
>> output and no 240V input will blow up if it doesn't shut down? Wrong.
>
> The battery is the load. And I'm referring to a charger and the leads to
> the battery being disconnected, not the 240V input. The same as if you
> open circuit the battery on a running, and charging, alternator. It can
> be done but there is a high risk of a spike zapping something. The
> battery acts to dampen spikes and it's removal from the circuit exposes
> the regulator and any other electronic components to spikes.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with having a charger with no battery on it.

>> Absolutely wrong. The output end of the supply (which probably ends
>> with smoothing capacitors) is just kept at the normal output voltage by
>> the battery.
>
> I used the term *charger* for a very good reason.

They are one and the same, constant voltage current limited supplies

>>>>> Even when it is fully charged it will still take a trickle charge
>>>>
>>>> 4A isnt a trickle charge.
>>>
>>> That depends entirely on the amp hour rating of the battery.
>>> Also, my bench charger will start off at 4 amps, its maximum capacity.
>>> As the battery becomes charged, that current will drop down to *1 amp*
>>> and, from that point, it will maintain a *trickle charge*.
>>
>> How fucking big is that battery?! When I charge a 60Ah lead acid at
>> 13.8V, it drops to about 150mA when full.
>
> When I was working on trucks, it wasn't unusual to see 4 x 12 Volt, 200
> AH batteries wired series-parallel, so yes, 1 amp can be a trickle.

Yes with 400Ah I can believe a 1A trickle.

>>> From Wikipedia;
>>> For lead-acid batteries under no load float charging (such as
>>> in SLI batteries), trickle charging happens naturally at the
>>> end-of-charge, when the lead-acid battery internal resistance
>>> to the charging current increases enough to reduce additional
>>> charging current to a trickle, hence the name. In such cases,
>>> the trickle charging equals the energy expended by the
>>> lead-acid battery splitting the water in the electrolyte into
>>> hydrogen and oxygen gases
>>
>> Trouble is you might want to do a bulk charge first, at 14.4V.
>>
>>> The car alternator regulator is no different. It sees the battery as a
>>> load, determines the voltage reference and pumps up its output.
>>
>> All it can do is supply a certain voltage. 13.8V is safe. If it uses
>> 14.4V or higher, it has to know when to back off to 13.8. It cannot do
>> that if there is an external current draw like headlamp, as it won't
>> know if they're switched on, or if the battery is drawing that current.
>
> The regulator has a Zener diode to *limit* the voltage. An external
> current draw will lower the voltage.

Only if the alternator can't provide enough current.

>>> When the
>>> regulator sees the battery voltage at the peak setpoint,
>>
>> You can't tell a battery is full by voltage. You can only tell by it
>> drawing less current. The voltage is determined by the charger.
>
> The voltage at the battery will be determined by the battery's *internal
> resistance*. As that battery's internal resistance goes higher, as it
> will do as it becomes charged, the voltage will go higher and current
> will reduce.

Bollocks. If I connect a 13.8V regulated supply (or charger, same thing) to a car battery sat on my bench, provided it's not needing a lot of current to charge it from empty, the charger will keep the terminals at precisely 13.8V. The only thing that changes as it becomes completely full is the current, so that's what the charger has to monitor.

>>> it too will
>>> drop the current to a trickle.
>>
>> Actually it drops the voltage, to 13.8. I used to have a solar battery
>> regulator which had very detailed instructions saying how it worked. It
>> took the voltage of the solar cells and altered it up or down a bit to
>> suit the battery condition.
>>
>>> If you add a load, say by turning
>>> headlights on, that is in *parallel* to the battery and it will drop the
>>> system voltage down a tad. The regulator will see that and pump up the
>>> output current appropriately. The current will apportion itself to the
>>> *two* loads as appropriate to their individual internal resistances.
>>
>> But it can't tell the difference between current going to the lights and
>> to the battery.
>
> It doesn't need to. All it needs to know is the aggregate current draw,
> the total. That will be indicated by the voltage.

If it's going to switch between fast and slow charge rates, it needs to know where that current is going. There is no way in hell it can tell from it's own internal sensing whether your battery is charging at 10 amps, or you have two 60W headlights switched on.

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 11:32:57 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire <MrPo...@rationalthought.com> wrote:

> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:55:51 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
>> <MrPo...@rationalthought.com> wrote:
>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when
>>>> to switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
>>>> charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
>>>> changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?
>>>
>>> Asks the unemployable wanker/troll with a 20 year old worthless
>>> degree and a stated IQ of 138. Odd that a few years ago your stated
>>> IQ was 142.
>>
>> It has always been 135. And the degree is 22 years old.
>
> My mistake.
>
> "I have an IQ of 140".
> "I am seldom wrong".
> (Peter Hucker)

It may be possible it varies slightly, I've taken it in several places.

>> "I have driven a Ford Sierra 1.6 at 90mph on single track roads
>> with passing places in the NW of Scotland. Fucking great fun"!

Not my fault you're too thick to drive fast.

>> "Vauxhalls and Fords are mass produced. VWs are engineered".

What do you find wrong with that?

[snip more silly quotes, collected by Pounder the OCD stalker]

[Mr Pounder Esquire]

Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 11:32:57 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
> <MrPo...@rationalthought.com> wrote:
>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:55:51 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
>>> <MrPo...@rationalthought.com> wrote:
>>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when
>>>>> to switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop
>>>>> in charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a
>>>>> random changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?
>>>>
>>>> Asks the unemployable wanker/troll with a 20 year old worthless
>>>> degree and a stated IQ of 138. Odd that a few years ago your stated
>>>> IQ was 142.
>>>
>>> It has always been 135. And the degree is 22 years old.
>>
>> My mistake.
>>
>> "I have an IQ of 140".
>> "I am seldom wrong".
>> (Peter Hucker)
>
> It may be possible it varies slightly, I've taken it in several
> places.

Yeah, right.

>
>>> "I have driven a Ford Sierra 1.6 at 90mph on single track roads
>>> with passing places in the NW of Scotland. Fucking great fun"!
>
> Not my fault you're too thick to drive fast.
>
>>> "Vauxhalls and Fords are mass produced. VWs are engineered".
>
> What do you find wrong with that?
>
> [snip more silly quotes, collected by Pounder the OCD stalker]

They are your quotes.

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 21:30:16 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire <MrPo...@rationalthought.com> wrote:

> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 11:32:57 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
>> <MrPo...@rationalthought.com> wrote:
>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:55:51 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
>>>> <MrPo...@rationalthought.com> wrote:
>>>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when
>>>>>> to switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop
>>>>>> in charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a
>>>>>> random changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?
>>>>>
>>>>> Asks the unemployable wanker/troll with a 20 year old worthless
>>>>> degree and a stated IQ of 138. Odd that a few years ago your stated
>>>>> IQ was 142.
>>>>
>>>> It has always been 135. And the degree is 22 years old.
>>>
>>> My mistake.
>>>
>>> "I have an IQ of 140".
>>> "I am seldom wrong".
>>> (Peter Hucker)
>>
>> It may be possible it varies slightly, I've taken it in several
>> places.
>
> Yeah, right.

Yip. So what's yours? Bod admitted to 98.

>>>> "I have driven a Ford Sierra 1.6 at 90mph on single track roads
>>>> with passing places in the NW of Scotland. Fucking great fun"!
>>
>> Not my fault you're too thick to drive fast.
>>
>>>> "Vauxhalls and Fords are mass produced. VWs are engineered".
>>
>> What do you find wrong with that?
>>
>> [snip more silly quotes, collected by Pounder the OCD stalker]
>
> They are your quotes.

You collected them, which makes you a psychopath.

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 17:27:09 +0100, TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 22/06/2019 22:58, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:03:08 +0100, TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>
>>>> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
>>>> switch to trickle charge?
>>>
>>> It doesn't.
>>
>> Mine does, if I start my car when the battery is say 80% full, the
>> voltage will be 14.4V. After a while, something causes that voltage to
>> drop to 13.8, because something knows the battery is full and should no
>> longer be charged at a high rate.
> >
>>>> I can understand it noticing a drop in
>>>> charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
>>>> changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?
>>>
>>> Ohm's law.
>>
>> Explain how an alternator or charger can use ohm's law to distinguish
>> between:
>
> To determine current, measure the voltage across a series resistor, duh.

Why didn't you wait until I'd finished?

>> 1) A car battery which is full, with a load of 10 amps connected to it,
>> like two headlights.
>> 2) A car battery with no load, which is not full yet and draws 10 amps
>> for the charge.
>
> Two resistors?

Yes that would work, but not if it has no external sensors (as in external to the alternator).

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 14:53:00 +0100, trader_4 <tra...@optonline.net> wrote:

> On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 5:58:02 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:03:08 +0100, TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
>> >> switch to trickle charge?
>> >
>> > It doesn't.
>>
>> Mine does, if I start my car when the battery is say 80% full, the voltage will be 14.4V. After a while, something causes that voltage to drop to 13.8, because something knows the battery is full and should no longer be charged at a high rate.
>
>

> Go find a description of the voltage regulator/alternator and/or a
> schematic for that car.

No idea where to find that.

> Give us the references. If something is telling
> the VR/alternator what voltage to target, then there must be an additional
> wire or connection of some kind.

Agreed. And it could well have a sensor in the fusebox etc.

> I have not seen that. The other possibilities
> are that the VR itself lowers the target voltage, based on? Makes no sense
> and I've never seen it mentioned anywhere. I just googled for VR and looked
> at half a dozen references, all just say the VR targets a specific voltage
> period. The other possibility is that when you read the voltage later,
> some other load is present that is lowering the system voltage that you see.

No, all I did was to start the car when the battery was almost full. The battery terminal voltage was immediately 14.4V. 20 minutes later it dropped to 13.8V. I added no loads. I think it actually dropped gradually if that means anything. I actually did that test because someone in one of these groups (although some troll has deleted half the groups, so I've added them back in AGAIN) told me that a car alternator changes voltage, this was in a post 6 months ago.

>> >> I can understand it noticing a drop in
>> >> charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
>> >> changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?
>> >
>> > Ohm's law.
>>
>> Explain how an alternator or charger can use ohm's law to distinguish between:
>> 1) A car battery which is full, with a load of 10 amps connected to it, like two headlights.
>> 2) A car battery with no load, which is not full yet and draws 10 amps for the charge.
>

> Rod claims that they have an extra sensing wire at the battery terminal
> and use the voltage there versus the voltage at the other end of the
> cable, to determine the current. I seriously doubt that, for obvious
> reasons involving the very large gauge cable and current of interest.

It could only be mV, but easy enough to sense with modern electronics. Or how about an amp clamp?

> And he can't produce a damn thing from anywhere that says that's what
> they do, except his own worthless statements. If it's done that way
> anywhere, it's not done on the cars I've seen here, that have just one
> battery cable on the positive terminal.

Every UK car has 2 or 3 cables on the battery positive. America is infamous for being behind the times. We all know your cars can't go round corners, and get way less HP for the same engine size.

> Why doesn't someone show us
> an example, a description of one of these alleged fancy voltage regulators
> that are computer controlled?

[TMS320]

On 23/06/2019 23:55, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 17:27:09 +0100, TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 22/06/2019 22:58, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:03:08 +0100, TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>
>>>>> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
>>>>> switch to trickle charge?
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't.
>>>
>>> Mine does, if I start my car when the battery is say 80% full, the
>>> voltage will be 14.4V.  After a while, something causes that voltage to
>>> drop to 13.8, because something knows the battery is full and should no
>>> longer be charged at a high rate.
>>  >
>>>>> I can understand it noticing a drop in
>>>>> charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
>>>>> changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?
>>>>
>>>> Ohm's law.
>>>
>>> Explain how an alternator or charger can use ohm's law to distinguish
>>> between:
>>
>> To determine current, measure the voltage across a series resistor, duh.
>
> Why didn't you wait until I'd finished?

You asked.

>>> 1) A car battery which is full, with a load of 10 amps connected to it,
>>> like two headlights.
>>> 2) A car battery with no load, which is not full yet and draws 10 amps
>>> for the charge.
>>
>> Two resistors?
>
> Yes that would work, but not if it has no external sensors (as in
> external to the alternator).

An alternator is not simply two wire power output. The electronics on
the alternator would be to keep everything within acceptable parameters
but fine control comes from the ECU.

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:33:08 +0100, TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 23/06/2019 23:55, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 17:27:09 +0100, TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 22/06/2019 22:58, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:03:08 +0100, TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
>>>>>> switch to trickle charge?
>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't.
>>>>
>>>> Mine does, if I start my car when the battery is say 80% full, the
>>>> voltage will be 14.4V. After a while, something causes that voltage to
>>>> drop to 13.8, because something knows the battery is full and should no
>>>> longer be charged at a high rate.
>>> >
>>>>>> I can understand it noticing a drop in
>>>>>> charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
>>>>>> changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ohm's law.
>>>>
>>>> Explain how an alternator or charger can use ohm's law to distinguish
>>>> between:
>>>
>>> To determine current, measure the voltage across a series resistor, duh.
>>
>> Why didn't you wait until I'd finished?
>
> You asked.

No, I said "explain.... distinguish between:" and before I'd listed the two things, you interrupted.

>>>> 1) A car battery which is full, with a load of 10 amps connected to it,
>>>> like two headlights.
>>>> 2) A car battery with no load, which is not full yet and draws 10 amps
>>>> for the charge.
>>>
>>> Two resistors?
>>
>> Yes that would work, but not if it has no external sensors (as in
>> external to the alternator).
>
> An alternator is not simply two wire power output. The electronics on
> the alternator would be to keep everything within acceptable parameters
> but fine control comes from the ECU.

So there are external sensors.

[Mr Pounder Esquire]

You posted them, you freak.
I enjoy taking the piss out of wankers, and you are a wanker.

[Commander Kinsey]

Not admitting to your IQ then?

>>>>>> "I have driven a Ford Sierra 1.6 at 90mph on single track roads
>>>>>> with passing places in the NW of Scotland. Fucking great fun"!
>>>>
>>>> Not my fault you're too thick to drive fast.
>>>>
>>>>>> "Vauxhalls and Fords are mass produced. VWs are engineered".
>>>>
>>>> What do you find wrong with that?
>>>>
>>>> [snip more silly quotes, collected by Pounder the OCD stalker]
>>>
>>> They are your quotes.
>>
>> You collected them, which makes you a psychopath.
>
> You posted them, you freak.
> I enjoy taking the piss out of wankers, and you are a wanker.

Because I disagree with your illogical beliefs?

[Peeler]

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:33:08 +0100, TMS320, yet another brain damaged,

troll-feeding, senile asshole, blathered again:

> You asked.

Nope, senile asshole! HE baited, and YOU bit!

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 03:07:05 +0100, Xeno <xeno...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

> On 23/6/19 2:03 am, TMS320 wrote:
>> On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
>>> switch to trickle charge?
>>
>> It doesn't.
>>
>>> I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery
>>> is on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as
>>> there is in a running car?
>>
>> Ohm's law.
>
> That's a bit *deep* for some people to comprehend.

It's also impossible to use it without having a remote (to the alternator) sensor. It's like my power company telling me if I'm using a kettle or a toaster.

[Commander Kinsey]

Well I see the full voltage charging a flat battery at idle. Obviously they could be designed to be capable of this and it would be very useful to charge the battery quickly when doing stop start town driving, or driving at minimum revs in top gear in a town.

[Daniel60]

Xeno wrote on 22/06/2019 9:03 PM:

> On 22/6/19 8:00 pm, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
>> volts,
>> but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know and
>

> A 12 Volt lead acid battery will show 13.2 volts straight off the
> charger, about 2.2 volts per cell. That will drop to about 12.7 volts
> after a day or so, a tad over 2.1 volts per cell.
>
> On the other hand, a vehicle's nominal *system voltage* is 14 Volts.
> That's because the *alternator typically operates in the 13.8-14.2 range.
>
> Due to increasing loads on vehicle electrical equipment, manufacturers
> were pushing to a nominal 42 Volt electrical system on cars. They were
> to be equipped with a 36 Volt battery. It may not happen now.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42-volt_electrical_system

Do Electric Cars have a 'standard' operating voltage?? Or does it vary
from one manufacturer to another??


--
Daniel

[The Natural Philosopher]

There would be no reason to have a standard voltage - standard charge
voltage, yes. 230 single phase or 400 three phase (same thing)

A far as battery voltages go - looking at say 200bhp (around 260Kw) is
around 660A at 400V.

which is still a lot of amps. I'd say the ideal is probably near the
limit of *cheap* semiconductor power FETS probably around 1kv or so.

I am a long time out of that field though, so it may be higher.

What I am fairly sure of however is that battery voltage will be decided
by cost of using that particular voltage and that will be down to what
semiconductors are available.

Should the market develop towards standardised batteries that could be
replaced by a local kwikfit etc, then I am sure manufacturers would
develop a common standard.


--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

[Xeno]

On 11/7/19 5:11 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> Well I see the full voltage charging a flat battery at idle.  Obviously
> they could be designed to be capable of this and it would be very useful
> to charge the battery quickly when doing stop start town driving, or
> driving at minimum revs in top gear in a town.
>

You may see a high voltage but you will not see a high current at idle.
The alternator is not *capable* of high current at idle.

[Xeno]

It varies. Anything up to 600 volts DC seems to be the norm at present.
BEVs have a regulator to drop those very high voltages down to whatever
voltage the ancillaries require - between 12V and 48V typically.

[Commander Kinsey]

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:47:33 +0100, Xeno <xeno...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

> On 11/7/19 5:11 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> Well I see the full voltage charging a flat battery at idle. Obviously
>> they could be designed to be capable of this and it would be very useful
>> to charge the battery quickly when doing stop start town driving, or
>> driving at minimum revs in top gear in a town.
>>
> You may see a high voltage but you will not see a high current at idle.
> The alternator is not *capable* of high current at idle.

A flat battery at a high voltage means there's a high current.

And will you please stop mixing up top and bottom posting. I top posted because I was replying to a blind user who had done the same.

[Peeler]

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:47:33 +1000, Xeno, another brainless, troll-feeding,
senile Australian idiot, blathered:


>>

> You may see a high voltage but you will not see a high current at idle.
> The alternator is not *capable* of high current at idle.

What we see is you AUSTRALIAN senile ASSHOLE taking every single bait the
Scottish wanker sets out for you! Just HOW senile are you, idiot?

[Rod Speed]

"Daniel60" <dani...@eternal-september.org> wrote in message
news:qg6ucf$oie$1...@dont-email.me...

Nope.

> Or does it vary from one manufacturer to another??

And from one model to another too.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 11/07/2019 14:47, Xeno wrote:
> On 11/7/19 5:11 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> Well I see the full voltage charging a flat battery at idle.
>> Obviously they could be designed to be capable of this and it would be
>> very useful to charge the battery quickly when doing stop start town
>> driving, or driving at minimum revs in top gear in a town.
>>
> You may see a high voltage but you will not see a high current at idle.
> The alternator is not *capable* of high current at idle.
>
>

You would be surprised.

Howver 80A at 12v is only a brake horsepower and a bit..

>>
>> On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:07:14 +0100, Xeno <xeno...@optusnet.com.au>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23/6/19 5:47 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> Modern car alternators seem to be able to give out a huge amount of
>>>> current at engine idle speed.  I'm sure my friend got his to give out
>>>> pretty much the full 80 amps without revving the engine.  He was
>>>> powering a small disco on a campsite :-)
>>>
>>> No way to get a full 80 amps out of an alternator *at idle*.

That however is probably true for most car alternators




--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people
by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason they are
poor.

Peter Thompson

[Daniel60]

Ah!! Good to read there is consistency ...... *NOT* !! ;-P

--
Daniel

[TMS320]

More volts requires more cells. Better to standardise on the size of a
cell, set a maximum operating current and alter the number of cells
according to cost/power requirements.

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 03:59:55 +0100, Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> "Xeno" <xeno...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:gn84kj...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 23/6/19 1:30 am, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Xeno" <xeno...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
>>> news:gn6eud...@mid.individual.net...
>>>> On 22/6/19 7:58 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Xeno" <xeno...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
>>>>> news:gn6a5e...@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>> On 22/6/19 9:57 am, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Commander Kinsey" <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:op.z3rc1...@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:57:52 +0100, Rod Speed
>>>>>>>> <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Commander Kinsey" <CFKi...@military.org.jp> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:op.z3q9f...@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian
>>>>>>>>>> <max_d...@bigfoot.com>

>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
>>>>>>>>>>>> when to

>>>>>>>>>>>> switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop

>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a
>>>>>>>>>>>> random
>>>>>>>>>>>> changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?
>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> The voltage perhaps.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why would the voltage change?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's the way batterys work, the battery voltage does change as
>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>> charged.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That's determined by the alternator or charger.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yip.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can put any voltage I like across a battery's terminals.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The battery then chooses how much current is drawn.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And that current changes depending on the how charged the battery is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to
>>>>>>>>>> charge the
>>>>>>>>>> battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the
>>>>>>>>>> charger
>>>>>>>>>> can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery
>>>>>>>>>> and power
>>>>>>>>>> any connected loads.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Its more complicated than that with the current going to the
>>>>>>>>> battery and the
>>>>>>>>> battery is charged.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less
>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>> when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No it doesn't even with a very crude battery charger.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For example, I'm currently keeping my car's battery topped up with a
>>>>>>>> bench supply overnight. It's set to 13.8V, with a current limiter
>>>>>>>> only to prevent overloading the supply.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It actually specify the current being supplied.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The voltage stays at 13.8V all the time, sometimes 100mA is drawn,
>>>>>>>> sometimes up to 4A. The only way I or the supply can tell the
>>>>>>>> battery is full, is by the current dropping to 100mA. But it's
>>>>>>>> actually always full, as when 4A is drawn, that's going to a load.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What load ? There no load with a battery being charged with a bench
>>>>>>> supply.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Correction
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope.

>>>>>
>>>>>> the *battery* is the *load*.
>>>>>

>>>>> Not when the battery is fully charged and is being charged

>>>>> with a bench supply that is delivering 4A to the battery.
>>>>
>>>> Take the case of an alternator charging a battery at ~4 amps.
>>>

>>> That isnt what was being discussed there. What was being discussed
>>> there was charging the battery out of the car with a bench supply.

>>>
>>>> The battery is the load and it also provides, as part of that function,
>>>> the reference *voltage* that the alternator *must have* in order to
>>>> control the output.
>>>

>>> None of that is relevant to what was being discussed there,
>>> charging the battery out of the car with a bench supply.

>>>
>>>>>> In the process of being charged it is using electric current. That
>>>>>> makes it the load.
>>>
>>>>> See above.
>>>
>>>> What happens to the charger when you disconnect the power with the
>>>> battery connected?
>>>

>>> With a BENCH SUPPLY, it continues to provide the
>>> same voltage as it did with the battery connected.

>>>
>>>> It should, if designed correctly, shut down since it no longer sees a
>>>> load. Otherwise it may destroy itself.
>>>

>>> That is just plain wrong with a BENCH SUPPLY.
>>> None of those destroy themselves with no load.

>>>
>>>>>> Even when it is fully charged it will still take a trickle charge
>>>
>>>>> 4A isnt a trickle charge.
>>>
>>>> That depends entirely on the amp hour rating of the battery.
>>>

>>> We're discussing a normal car battery in a steaming turd with
>>> wheels frog car.
>>>
>>>> Also, my bench charger
>>>
>>> We arent discussing a bench charger, we are discussing a bench SUPPLY.

>>>
>>>> will start off at 4 amps, its maximum capacity. As the battery becomes
>>>> charged, that current will drop down to *1 amp* and, from that point, it
>>>> will maintain a *trickle charge*.
>>>

>>> So that is nothing like the situation being discussed
>>> with a BENCH SUPPLY which is still delivering 4A to
>>> a battery that has been removed from the car.

>>>
>>>> From Wikipedia;
>>>> For lead-acid batteries under no load float charging (such as
>>>> in SLI batteries), trickle charging happens naturally at the
>>>> end-of-charge, when the lead-acid battery internal resistance
>>>> to the charging current increases enough to reduce additional
>>>> charging current to a trickle, hence the name. In such cases,
>>>> the trickle charging equals the energy expended by the
>>>> lead-acid battery splitting the water in the electrolyte into
>>>> hydrogen and oxygen gases
>>>

>>> Irrelevant to what is being discussed, 4A isnt a trickle charge.

>>>
>>>> The car alternator regulator is no different.
>>>

>>> We arent discussing that there.

>>>
>>>> It sees the battery as a load, determines the voltage reference and

>>>> pumps up its output. When the regulator sees the battery voltage at the
>>>> peak setpoint, it too will drop the current to a trickle. If you add a

>>>> load, say by turning headlights on, that is in *parallel* to the battery
>>>> and it will drop the system voltage down a tad. The regulator will see
>>>> that and pump up the output current appropriately. The current will
>>>> apportion itself to the *two* loads as appropriate to their individual
>>>> internal resistances.
>>>

>>> All irrelevant to charging a battery out of the car with a BENCH SUPPLY.
>>>
>>>> Here, educate yourself;
>>>> https://www.swtc.edu/ag_power/electrical/lecture/parallel_circuits.htm
>>>
>>> I knew all that before you were even born, thanks.
>>>
>>>>>> so it is still a load even when fully charged.
>>>
>>>>> Not when its still taking 4A,
>>>
>>>> If the battery is *taking* 4 amps, then it *is definitely the load*.
>>>
>>> But it wont be taking 4A WHEN THE BATTERY IS OUT OF THE
>>> CAR WITH A BENCH SUPPLY. Because the battery voltage will
>>> have risen once it has been charged so the original 4A will
>>> have dropped significantly WITH A BENCH SUPPLY.
>>
>> If you have a battery connected to a bench supply, it is still the load
>> because it will always be taking *some* current. If it is taking 4 amps it
>> is definitely loading the BENCH SUPPLY.
>
> It wont be taking 4A when charged unless
> you have completely fucked up the voltage.

Or a cell has died, in which case you have a 10V battery. I've done that and caused an explosion.

[Steve Walker]

Better still, standardised voltage and standardised packs where a small
town car may use one, while a larger, longer range car may use two or
three. Make the packs so they can be slid in or out - it doesn't matter
if each car puts them in at different locations, in different directions
or around different obstructions - and "battery stations" could use
robot arms, pre-programmed for all different models, to swap out
discharged batteries for fully charged ones. The service paid for at a
fixed sum, plus a rate for the increase in charge level.

That makes recharging an electric vehicle as fast as a petrol or diesel
one from the driver's point of view and ensures that failing batteries
are removed from circulation, with the cost spread amongst all drivers
rather than an individual being hit by a high fee.

It would also mean that as battery technology improved, all cars would
benefit, not just the latest model.

SteveW

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <qgalu9$j6e$1...@dont-email.me>,

Steve Walker <st...@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
> Better still, standardised voltage and standardised packs where a small
> town car may use one, while a larger, longer range car may use two or
> three. Make the packs so they can be slid in or out - it doesn't matter
> if each car puts them in at different locations, in different directions
> or around different obstructions - and "battery stations" could use
> robot arms, pre-programmed for all different models, to swap out
> discharged batteries for fully charged ones. The service paid for at a
> fixed sum, plus a rate for the increase in charge level.

> That makes recharging an electric vehicle as fast as a petrol or diesel
> one from the driver's point of view and ensures that failing batteries
> are removed from circulation, with the cost spread amongst all drivers
> rather than an individual being hit by a high fee.

> It would also mean that as battery technology improved, all cars would
> benefit, not just the latest model.

Which would require cooperation between every maker in every country.
Just the thing all the Farages and Trumps of this world are dead against.
How dare anyone tell us how we should do things. And so on.

--
*If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.*

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Robin]

On 13/07/2019 11:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <qgalu9$j6e$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Steve Walker <st...@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
>> Better still, standardised voltage and standardised packs where a small
>> town car may use one, while a larger, longer range car may use two or
>> three. Make the packs so they can be slid in or out - it doesn't matter
>> if each car puts them in at different locations, in different directions
>> or around different obstructions - and "battery stations" could use
>> robot arms, pre-programmed for all different models, to swap out
>> discharged batteries for fully charged ones. The service paid for at a
>> fixed sum, plus a rate for the increase in charge level.
>
>> That makes recharging an electric vehicle as fast as a petrol or diesel
>> one from the driver's point of view and ensures that failing batteries
>> are removed from circulation, with the cost spread amongst all drivers
>> rather than an individual being hit by a high fee.
>
>> It would also mean that as battery technology improved, all cars would
>> benefit, not just the latest model.
>
> Which would require cooperation between every maker in every country.
> Just the thing all the Farages and Trumps of this world are dead against.
> How dare anyone tell us how we should do things. And so on.
>

How do you propose decisions should be made on what is to be produced
and when innovation is to be allowed? The same system that produced the
Trabant in 1957 - and carried on producing it until 1990?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[Steve Walker]

On 13/07/2019 11:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article <qgalu9$j6e$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Steve Walker <st...@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
>> Better still, standardised voltage and standardised packs where a small
>> town car may use one, while a larger, longer range car may use two or
>> three. Make the packs so they can be slid in or out - it doesn't matter
>> if each car puts them in at different locations, in different directions
>> or around different obstructions - and "battery stations" could use
>> robot arms, pre-programmed for all different models, to swap out
>> discharged batteries for fully charged ones. The service paid for at a
>> fixed sum, plus a rate for the increase in charge level.
>
>> That makes recharging an electric vehicle as fast as a petrol or diesel
>> one from the driver's point of view and ensures that failing batteries
>> are removed from circulation, with the cost spread amongst all drivers
>> rather than an individual being hit by a high fee.
>
>> It would also mean that as battery technology improved, all cars would
>> benefit, not just the latest model.
>
> Which would require cooperation between every maker in every country.
> Just the thing all the Farages and Trumps of this world are dead against.
> How dare anyone tell us how we should do things. And so on.

We manage to agree on the standards of petrol that cars have to be able
to run on now. We manage to impose (although not police) emissions
standards. Standards are not the same in every country, but someone
supplying from outside has to meet the standards in force in the UK.
There is nothing wrong with countries co-operating on standards - only
in having them imposed externally.

SteveW