4 layer PCB prototype manufacture.
Fred
200mm.
Can anyone point me in the direction of a low price manufacturer for say 2
off?
I apologise if this question has been asked many times before.
I have come across Olimex but they only seem to do 2 layer boards.
Sylvain Munaut
Tilmann Reh
--
Dipl.-Ing. Tilmann Reh
Autometer GmbH Siegen - Elektronik nach Maß.
http://www.autometer.de
sPoNiX
Fred
"Sylvain Munaut" <tnt_at_246...@reducespam.com> wrote in message
news:415041ea$0$4142$ba62...@news.skynet.be...
Many thanks. I see sPoNiX has offered the same suggestion. However they do
seem expensive for 2 of 200 x 100mm PCB on a 9 day delivery. Their online
quote was 702.00 EUR.
Fred
"Tilmann Reh" <tilma...@despammed.com> wrote in message
news:cipfon$p0m$1...@online.de...
Many thanks. They seem very affordable, their quote for 2 is 174.00 EUR.
However that's for 15 days and they can't do it it any quicker due to
"capacity problems"!
CWatters
"sPoNiX" <sPo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:41504256...@news.individual.net...
.
>
> www.pcb-pool.com are very good.
>
Yes I've used them as well.
They have/had an option that allowed you to purchase the extra board(s) they
make at a discount. eg when you order 2 they sometimes make 3 just in case
of problems. If all three work you could buy the third board at a special
price.
I also used the free version of Target 3001 downloaded from the
www.pcb-pool.com web site.
The quality of the boards I got back was very good.
Leon Heller
"Fred" <Fr...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:4150495b$0$22748$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
I doubt if you will get them much cheaper elsewhere. Their quality is very
good, into the bargain.
Leon
Tilmann Reh
>> http://www.eurocircuits.com
>
> Many thanks. They seem very affordable, their quote for 2 is 174.00 EUR.
> However that's for 15 days and they can't do it it any quicker due to
> "capacity problems"!
Currently, yes. They moved their main plant in August, and I assume
they have some orders piled up during that time...
However, their quality is really good and especially for prototypes
their prices are almost unbeatable. You should check if 15 days is
OK for the moment...
Uwe Bonnes
: Fred schrieb:
: > I'm in the UK and looking to prototype a 4 layer board nominally 100 x
: > 200mm.
: >
: > Can anyone point me in the direction of a low price manufacturer for say 2
: > off?
: >
: > I apologise if this question has been asked many times before.
: >
: > I have come across Olimex but they only seem to do 2 layer boards.
Argh,
another "Internet Exporer" optimized site, leaving me helpless with firefox.
Probably they don't want customers...
--
Uwe Bonnes b...@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de
Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt
--------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------
moun...@iname.com
>: > I have come across Olimex but they only seem to do 2 layer boards.
>: http://www.eurocircuits.com
>Argh,
>another "Internet Exporer" optimized site, leaving me helpless with firefox.
>Probably they don't want customers...
If you send an email to the sales department, and not the webmaster, it will
often get a better results. Most sales people work hard to get customers, and
are seldom amused to hear that their web site discriminates and sends
customers off to another business. Often times, web designers just go off and
do what they want, and the rest of the company has no idea that they suck at
what they do.
Might be worth a try.
Mark
Mike Diack
news:41503f14$0$22756$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk:
Not in the UK, but worth a look, especially if you use Protel :
http://www.becman.com/index.asp?id=74
I've used them lots, and never a problem (as long as you nail down
freight method and cost)
M
Fred
"Mike Diack" <mo...@kcbbs.gen.middleearth> wrote in message
news:Xns956C55AA4981...@203.96.92.12...
>
> Not in the UK, but worth a look, especially if you use Protel :
>
> http://www.becman.com/index.asp?id=74
>
> I've used them lots, and never a problem (as long as you nail down
> freight method and cost)
> M
>
I suspect carriage costs and time will prohibit Aussie companies.
I've noticed that Gerber files are no longer the preferred format for some
manufacturers or there is a premium with them. I'm surprised with this
given their historical standing.
legg
>
>>
>> pcbpool.com maybe ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Sylvain
>
>Many thanks. I see sPoNiX has offered the same suggestion. However they do
>seem expensive for 2 of 200 x 100mm PCB on a 9 day delivery. Their online
>quote was 702.00 EUR.
Requote with a 2-week lead time, or more, if cost is a major obstacle.
RL
Tilmann Reh
> : http://www.eurocircuits.com
>
> Argh,
> another "Internet Exporer" optimized site, leaving me helpless with firefox.
> Probably they don't want customers...
Sorry I forgot to mention that...
Yes, that's the only site where I use IE. I talked to them about this,
and they told me that something in the calculation forms would currently
work only with IE, but they would try to get it running also with other
browsers.
Has been a while though, maybe we should contact sales management now...
Spehro Pefhany
<Fr...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>"Mike Diack" <mo...@kcbbs.gen.middleearth> wrote in message
>news:Xns956C55AA4981...@203.96.92.12...
>>
>> Not in the UK, but worth a look, especially if you use Protel :
>>
>> http://www.becman.com/index.asp?id=74
>>
>> I've used them lots, and never a problem (as long as you nail down
>> freight method and cost)
>> M
>>
>
>I suspect carriage costs and time will prohibit Aussie companies.
Two prototype boards can be transported between most business centers
in the world within 48 hours for less than $50 US. Some places like
Eastern Europe are still surprisingly expensive (more than the Far
East to North America, for less than half the distance).
>I've noticed that Gerber files are no longer the preferred format for some
>manufacturers or there is a premium with them. I'm surprised with this
>given their historical standing.
? What are they asking for? Design files?
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Jeff
"Spehro Pefhany" <spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
news:c9t2l0hp2uk0p4517...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:56:22 +0100, the renowned "Fred"
> <Fr...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Mike Diack" <mo...@kcbbs.gen.middleearth> wrote in message
> >news:Xns956C55AA4981...@203.96.92.12...
> >>
> >> Not in the UK, but worth a look, especially if you use Protel :
> >>
> >> http://www.becman.com/index.asp?id=74
> >>
> >> I've used them lots, and never a problem (as long as you nail down
> >> freight method and cost)
> >> M
> >>
> >
> >I suspect carriage costs and time will prohibit Aussie companies.
>
> Two prototype boards can be transported between most business centers
> in the world within 48 hours for less than $50 US. Some places like
> Eastern Europe are still surprisingly expensive (more than the Far
> East to North America, for less than half the distance).
>
> >I've noticed that Gerber files are no longer the preferred format for
some
> >manufacturers or there is a premium with them. I'm surprised with this
> >given their historical standing.
>
> ? What are they asking for? Design files?
GenCAD seems to be gaining a little popularity.
Mike Diack
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:56:22 +0100, the renowned "Fred"
> <Fr...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>I've noticed that Gerber files are no longer the preferred format for
>>some manufacturers or there is a premium with them. I'm surprised
>>with this given their historical standing.
>
> ? What are they asking for? Design files?
Yep - they take Protel (all the versions) *.pcb design files -
Which, when you are doing DSPTH/SM/OL is a whole lot less hassle
than a load of Gerbers + drill file. (IIRC,they will accept Gerbers, but
charge extra).
M
Rich Grise
with the following:
> Uwe Bonnes schrieb:
>
>> : http://www.eurocircuits.com
>>
>> Argh,
>> another "Internet Exporer" optimized site, leaving me helpless with
>> firefox. Probably they don't want customers...
>
> Sorry I forgot to mention that...
>
> Yes, that's the only site where I use IE. I talked to them about this,
> and they told me that something in the calculation forms would currently
> work only with IE, but they would try to get it running also with other
> browsers.
>
> Has been a while though, maybe we should contact sales management now...
>
Do you mean this one?
------------------------------
Price Calculator [Plot & Go]
PCB Type *
(PCB's are delivered std. with Solder mask and legend on component side.)
PCB dimension X *
Min. 20 MM. - Max. 450 MM. Use decimal points if applicable.
PCB dimension Y *
Min. 20 MM. - Max. 450 MM. Use decimal points if applicable.
Nr. of PCBs *
(Max. 9 Pieces)
Total Area
Total surface area in DM2
Select country for delivery *
Transport Mode *
"By post" is only applicable for non registered users
Delivery Term *
Your Boards will be shipped after the number of working days you selected
Price per PCB
The calculated price per PCB excluding transport and taxes
Transport Price
Price of the selected transport mode
Order price
Total order price including transport and excluding VAT
Total Price including VAT
Total Price including transport and VAT (21% VAT for delivery into the
European Union; otherwise 0%)
If you need more options, use the "Verified" calculator.
Plot and Go service is available for private as well as Business users. To
order as private user click here To order as Business user, please login.
------------------------------------
* The text boxes don't copy/paste, but it does calculate; I'm using
Konqueror. :-)
It's acting either like a CGI or very well-behaved javascript.
(that's the only form I've tested, so I could still be uninformed. :-) )
Cheers!
Rich
budgie
That's correct. Protel is the de-facto standard here in Australia, and they
support even the old (now freeware) Dos Autotrax. This is actually quite a
useful tool for low-end commercial applications, and even outfits like CustomPCB
in Malaysia take Protel formats as one of their "standard' types for production.
moun...@iname.com
>>>>I've noticed that Gerber files are no longer the preferred format for
>>>>some manufacturers or there is a premium with them. I'm surprised
>>>>with this given their historical standing.
>>>
>>> ? What are they asking for? Design files?
>>
>>Yep - they take Protel (all the versions) *.pcb design files -
>>Which, when you are doing DSPTH/SM/OL is a whole lot less hassle
>>than a load of Gerbers + drill file. (IIRC,they will accept Gerbers, but
>>charge extra).
Doubtless a naive question, but are there not copywright and other issues
involved in sending a pcb file to a vendor. Granted, one can reverse engineer
gerbers to a point, but I have not come across this issue yet, and I think my
customers might be a bit concerned about sending the entire design to a
vendor. I know that right off the top of my head, I would be as well.
I have seen many products absconded by other companies, and cannot quite grasp
how this method is becoming a preferred process given that possibility.
Always willing to learn, but I would give up my products and designs only if
absolutely forced to do so, lacking a good explanation.
Mark
Spehro Pefhany
wrote:
Yes, there is a LOT more information in the design files, often
including exact part numbers and even more sometimes. Also, using the
gerbers gives you another chance to see stuff that's wrong by using a
gerber viewer and interpreting the gerber files. I would rather spend
an extra half an hour generating the gerbers and checking them.
budgie
Most operators I have used have confidentiality statements on their websites.
That aside, I suspect you'd be battling to find a use for my designs based on a
DSPTH board layout with or without overlay. If you want to R/E it with labels
like IC1 and Q1 then you're welcome to try.
moun...@iname.com
budgie <m...@privacy.net> said:
>Most operators I have used have confidentiality statements on their websites.
>That aside, I suspect you'd be battling to find a use for my designs based on
>a DSPTH board layout with or without overlay. If you want to R/E it with
>labels like IC1 and Q1 then you're welcome to try.
:-) I have done many products for consumer and high end musical equipment
like sound reinforcement, fx processors, etc. To send pcb files to a board
house in China would guarantee that they would steal them. Since the
enclosures are already outsourced to that country for fab, the whole product
would soon appear on the black market with the resulting damage to the
American company.
Now this is not to be construed as condemnation of the society in another
country, but I have already seen some of my work reverse engineered, appearing
at trade shows under a bogus company name, at what had to be a great effort,
so I would be loathe to just hand over everything to a businesses that are
known to rip off products. Confidentiality statements mean nothing across
international borders.
I guess the question I would like to ask is, how many folks are seeing gerbers
becoming obsolete? This is the first I have heard of it, and as was mentioned,
it seems a stupid way to send data to a fab house, as it is necessary to view
and review files such as the gerbers in order to isolate problems. Its good
practice, and it seems to me to be a sloppy practice to just send the whole
pcb file and let someone else deal with it. Since the board house has to
create all 18 layers anyway, they must be doing something equivalent to making
a gerber file for each layer. I am old fashioned and want to control that
process as much as I can. I don't think I want the board house messing with my
work.
Interesting issue tho, as like I said, I have not heard of this practice. Glad
I am reading these groups, I guess I need to get out more :-)
Mark
Spehro Pefhany
wrote:
>In <dn37l0dkpnp4n1ou8...@4ax.com>, on 09/24/04 at 11:07 AM,
> budgie <m...@privacy.net> said:
>
>>Most operators I have used have confidentiality statements on their websites.
>>That aside, I suspect you'd be battling to find a use for my designs based on
>>a DSPTH board layout with or without overlay. If you want to R/E it with
>>labels like IC1 and Q1 then you're welcome to try.
>
>
> :-) I have done many products for consumer and high end musical equipment
>like sound reinforcement, fx processors, etc. To send pcb files to a board
>house in China would guarantee that they would steal them. Since the
>enclosures are already outsourced to that country for fab, the whole product
>would soon appear on the black market with the resulting damage to the
>American company.
>
>Now this is not to be construed as condemnation of the society in another
>country, but I have already seen some of my work reverse engineered, appearing
>at trade shows under a bogus company name, at what had to be a great effort,
>so I would be loathe to just hand over everything to a businesses that are
>known to rip off products. Confidentiality statements mean nothing across
>international borders.
That's too strong of a blanket statement. NDAs and copyright law are
quite effective from one 'first world' country to another, AFAIUI. I'd
have no worry about a supplier in Europe or the US vs. a customer in
Canada or any combination of those. China is another story.
>I guess the question I would like to ask is, how many folks are seeing gerbers
>becoming obsolete? This is the first I have heard of it, and as was mentioned,
>it seems a stupid way to send data to a fab house, as it is necessary to view
>and review files such as the gerbers in order to isolate problems. Its good
>practice, and it seems to me to be a sloppy practice to just send the whole
>pcb file and let someone else deal with it. Since the board house has to
>create all 18 layers anyway, they must be doing something equivalent to making
>a gerber file for each layer. I am old fashioned and want to control that
>process as much as I can. I don't think I want the board house messing with my
>work.
They still often mess with it using FabFactory or whatever, when they
panelize they *may* do little stuff like take silk screen markings off
of SMT pads if they look accidental, and 'silently', plus adding their
own logo etc. but at least you limit what info they have. I know they
still look at the files carefully, because I often get questions about
guard rings, partial slits in power planes (to control where heavy
currents flow to outside of sensitive circuitry), traces with no pads
at the end and other unusual-looking stuff.
The last Protel board I did looked fine on the screen, but I found
that the splits in one of the power planes (I had it split into three)
were generating too-thin slivers at a couple of the edges of the
board. Using a gerber viewer allowed it to be caught and fixed before
the files went off to the other side of the world.
>Interesting issue tho, as like I said, I have not heard of this practice. Glad
>I am reading these groups, I guess I need to get out more :-)
>Mark
From what I can see, some suppliers may *accept* the design files that
to be caught before the files went out to the supplier on the les as
an option, but I've personally not seen any trend to place a premium
on gerbers. Protel is not really a standard world-wide- any supplier
that punished other customers would not be making a good business
move, IMO. RS274X gerbers (with embedded apertures and other stuff)
and Excellon drill files are the standard, AFAIK.
budgie
>In <dn37l0dkpnp4n1ou8...@4ax.com>, on 09/24/04 at 11:07 AM,
> budgie <m...@privacy.net> said:
>
>>Most operators I have used have confidentiality statements on their websites.
>>That aside, I suspect you'd be battling to find a use for my designs based on
>>a DSPTH board layout with or without overlay. If you want to R/E it with
>>labels like IC1 and Q1 then you're welcome to try.
>
>
> :-) I have done many products for consumer and high end musical equipment
>like sound reinforcement, fx processors, etc. To send pcb files to a board
>house in China would guarantee that they would steal them. Since the
>enclosures are already outsourced to that country for fab, the whole product
>would soon appear on the black market with the resulting damage to the
>American company.
>
>Now this is not to be construed as condemnation of the society in another
>country, but I have already seen some of my work reverse engineered, appearing
>at trade shows under a bogus company name, at what had to be a great effort,
>so I would be loathe to just hand over everything to a businesses that are
>known to rip off products.
The ability to R/E a product from Protel .pcb files depends a lot on how much or
how little additional information resides there. In my case I still choose to
use DOS Autotrax, depite it having some limitations. As I previously posted, to
R/E from one of these would require a LOT more information, including some idea
of the end product's role and functionality. I have had a set of boards made in
mainland China and the only clue to the role would be cryptic to we
english-first-language types, to say the least. And as the device was
software-driven, they'd have to fully understand the role and functionality to
the Nth degree to be able to replicate the end product.
If you use a later product with all sorts of additional design information
embedded, then there is certainly a heightened risk of R/E. But my files are
simply a pcb with overlay info which NEVER includes part numbers/values - only
circuit references like R1 and U1. So even though I've been called paranoid I
don't believe my designs are at risk.
Spehro Pefhany
<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>If you use a later product with all sorts of additional design information
>embedded, then there is certainly a heightened risk of R/E. But my files are
>simply a pcb with overlay info which NEVER includes part numbers/values - only
>circuit references like R1 and U1. So even though I've been called paranoid I
>don't believe my designs are at risk.
I suspect with most designers the generation of a complete BOM is only
a couple of clicks away. It's amazing sometimes the amount of
information that's embedded (hidden or not) in the documents some
people send out (such as Word files).
budgie
<spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:01:51 +0800, the renowned budgie
><m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>
>>If you use a later product with all sorts of additional design information
>>embedded, then there is certainly a heightened risk of R/E. But my files are
>>simply a pcb with overlay info which NEVER includes part numbers/values - only
>>circuit references like R1 and U1. So even though I've been called paranoid I
>>don't believe my designs are at risk.
>
>I suspect with most designers the generation of a complete BOM is only
>a couple of clicks away. It's amazing sometimes the amount of
>information that's embedded (hidden or not) in the documents some
>people send out (such as Word files).
I know what you mean - I often peruse Word .doc files with XTREME, and identify
all sorts of useless info like the author's name, default printer etc etc.
I picked up an old 386 laptop YEARS ago a Govt auction, and they had deleted
everything except the basic WFWG installation - left so that it could be
test-run by would-be buyers - EXCEPT they had left the windows swap file. It
contained all sorts of confidential correspondence, name/address lists etc etc.
Scary stuff!!
But you have identified one of the reasons I design with the old tool I do, and
why I leave out ALL the info not needed for board fab.
Santa Claus
"Leon Heller" <leon_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
i know this is like 6 years late but i had to put in my two cents
worth...
an american company http://www.douglas.com can make that PCB for 250
dollars setup and 31 dollars per board plus one cent per hole
at todays rate, the first board will be about 205 euros and each board
after will be about 22.62 euros