Rap Times At Crenshaw High
Unknown
From http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin1.asp
>Jewish World Review Jan. 15, 2003 / 12 Shevat, 5763
>Michelle Malkin
>
>Hip-hop hogwash in the schools
>
>http://www.NewsAndOpinion.com | Yo, yo, yo. The Los Angeles Times reports this week that teachers across the country are using rap music to "make classical literature relevant."
>
>
>When I was in school, we studied the major conflicts of "Man vs. Self," "Man vs. Nature," and "Man vs. Society" by reading Shakespeare, Melville, and Hawthorne. We copied famous quotations in our marble composition notebooks, memorized verses and soliloquys that have stood the test of time, and immersed ourselves in the creative genius of men and women who lived and loved centuries before us.
>
>
>But universal themes and great books, which have challenged, enriched, and inspired generations of students around the world, no longer hold sway in the modern academy.
>
>
>At Crenshaw High School, the major conflict being studied is "Man vs. Ho." The revered bard is dead rapper Tupac Shakur. Times reporter Erika Hayasaki enthusiastically describes how English teacher Patrick Camangian got his students talking about the "lyrics" by the late Shakur from an uplifting opus titled "Shorty Wanna Be a Thug:" Blaze up, gettin' with hos through my pager.
Say WHAT??? And to think, some folks here have swore up and down
that Ebonics isn't part of the curriculum in urban schools.
Now, what I'm wondering is, in the conflict between "man vs ho", who
won?? And who is Ho, Ho Chi Minh perhaps?
>Reports Hayasaki: "A lively discussion ensued about sexism, racism and how degrading terms such as "ho" -- slang for "whore" -- can be used to dehumanize and divide people. In hip-hop terms, the students were feelin' it."
Feeling what? Their pain? Or perhaps the taxpayers pain, if they
knew how their money was being spent to "educate" them. Assuming
those lamebrains even know what a "taxpayer" is.
>It's bad enough that the demented scribblings of various hoodlums are being peddled in public high schools as literature. Even worse are the "academic" courses being taught in elite colleges.
>
>
>Here's a recent syllabus I found on the Internet from Dr. Jeffrey O. G. Ogbar, who teaches at the University of Connecticut's Department of History. The course: "Hip-Hop: Politics and Popular Culture in Late 20th Century United States." Among the educational objectives: "to discuss, at a college-level proficiency, the contributions of various artists on hip-hop and the significance of the art form in the United States and abroad."
>
>
>One unit on "development and evolution" focuses on "breaking, popping, graffiti, [and] colloquialisms, with an emphasis on the great minds of "Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, Kurtis Blow, [and] Afrika Bambaattaa."
These folks are "great minds", how?
>Another penetrating unit is devoted to hip-hop's nouveau riche, and lectures on such important historical figures in rap history as "Lil' Kim, Black Star, Puff Daddy, The Roots, Cash Money Millionaires, [and] Jay-Z."
Hmm, wasn't "Cash Money" the name of the dope-dealing gang in "New
Jack City"?
>Dr. Ogbar is no softie, however. Students must produce a "creative writing paper" that develops a 200-250 word rhyme. He provides a helpful example and analysis:
Well, it's always good to be "helpful" to those whose minds are filled
with mush.
>MCs think I'm like an artery because I bring the flow,
>but I'm really just vain so in case you don't know,
>I put out wack MCs like yo momma put out the booty
>You think you a big baller, but you the smallest like Rudy…
WTF?? I really could use an English-Ebonics diary right about now.
Anyone know where I can get one?
>Dr. Ogbar expounds on the "use of simile to insult the opponent by comparing him/her to the smallest child, Rudy, on the popular 80s sitcom 'The Cosby Show.' It can also refer to Rudy, the popular 1993 movie about a small football player, thereby offering a double entendre with idiomatic slang 'baller' (an athlete; also used in reference to someone with wealth and power).
It could also refer to Rudy Giuliani, whom many blacks (including Al
Sharpie Sharpton) don't like.
>The final multi-layered reference is to the smallest character of the 1970s cartoon, 'Fat Albert.' This affirms the humiliation of the opponent and offers a witty popular culture reference."
I think it's easier to make more sense out of Nostradamus' writings
than some of this drivel.
>Another syllabus I found for an Afro-American Studies course at Harvard University, "Hiphop America: Power, Politics and the Word," introduces young scholars to the "Hiphop ideology: Representin', Comin' Correct, and Keepin' It Real." And at Pennsylvania State University, I discovered, students were required to attend a "Mos Def Concert" and write "a page concerning Hip Hop Literacies that you observe at the performance." Also mandatory: in-class listening sessions of "old school rap" and in-class "viewing of various female rapper's (sic) videos."
>
>
>Welcome to the morass of self-absorbed multiculturalism, where urban "relevance" is the be-all and end-all of the intellectual experience. Where teachers are listening partners, rather than imparters of knowledge. Where Fat Albert and Prince Hamlet are equals. Where education has been reduced to the false art of "feelin' it" and "keepin' it real."
What a stinking pile of horse doodoo. Yer taxpayer dollars at work.
Roger Brown
must steal Malkins rant?
Malkin is one of the weakest of the conservative ranters, too. Voice
has the hots for her.
Unknown
wrote:
>So, Voice of White Ignorance still can't write his own opinions, but
>must steal Malkins rant?
I did write my own opinions, mixed in with hers. Do you need reading
glasses too, like yer hot tub buddy Mr Johnson?
>Malkin is one of the weakest of the conservative ranters, too.
Proof?
>Voicehas the hots for her.
So yer saying that it's *OK* to waste taxpayer dollars like they do in
Crenshaw High? Do you really believe these folks are getting a good
education?
make...@worldnet.att.net
Yo!, The V-Dog (VoiceOfReason), in a weak attempt to relate to all
the pipe-hittin' g'bangin' homies wrote:
>
> From http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin1.asp
> >
> >MCs think I'm like an artery because I bring the flow,
> >but I'm really just vain so in case you don't know,
> >I put out wack MCs like yo momma put out the booty
> >You think you a big baller, but you the smallest like Rudy…
>
> WTF?? I really could use an English-Ebonics diary right about now.
> Anyone know where I can get one?
The DAFN_Shelf in Big Don's library is pleased to serve:
1. Smiitherman, G., "Black Talk", Houghton-Mifflin, NY, 1994
2. Westbrook, A., "Hip-Hoptionary" Broadway Books, NY, 2002
Also, Amazon.com has some juicy-looking titles:
African-American English: Structure, History, and Usage
by Salikoko S. Mufwene (Editor)
African American Vernacular English: Features, Evolution, Educational
Implications (Language in Society (Oxford, England), 26.)
by John R. Rickford (Paperback)
Bob LeChevalier
>>MCs think I'm like an artery because I bring the flow,
>>but I'm really just vain so in case you don't know,
>>I put out wack MCs like yo momma put out the booty
>>You think you a big baller, but you the smallest like Rudy…
>
>WTF?? I really could use an English-Ebonics diary right about now.
>Anyone know where I can get one?
Famous poet Ogden Nash:
http://www.westegg.com/nash/baby.cgi
>Ode to a Baby
>by Ogden Nash
>
>A bit of talcum
>Is always walcum.
http://www.westegg.com/nash/wasp.cgi
>The Wasp
>by Ogden Nash
>
>The wasp and all his numerous family
>I look upon as a major calamity.
>He throws open his nest with prodigality,
>But I distrust his waspitality.
Famous writer and mathematician Lewis Carroll:
_The Jabberwock_
>'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
> Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
>All mimsy were the borogoves,
> And the mome raths outgrabe.
>
>"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
> The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
>Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
> The frumious Bandersnatch!"
>
>He took his vorpal sword in hand:
> Long time the manxome foe he sought-
>So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
> And stood awhile in thought.
>
>And, as in uffish thought he stood,
> The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
>Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
> And burbled as it came!
>
>One, two! One, two! And through and through
> The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
>He left it dead, and with its head
> He went galumphing back.
>
>"And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
> Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
>A frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!"
> He chortled in his joy.
>
>'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
> Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
>All mimsy were the borogoves,
> And the mome raths outgrabe.
Geoffrey Chaucer, historic English poet, _Canterbury Tales_
>Heere begynneth the Man of Lawe his Tale.
> In Surrye whilom dwelte a compaignye
>135 Of chapmen riche, and therto sadde and trewe,
> That wyde-where senten hir spicerye,
> Clothes of gold, and satyns riche of hewe.
> Hir chaffare was so thrifty and so newe
> That every wight hath deyntee to chaffare
>140 With hem, and eek to sellen hem hir ware.
William Shakespeare, playwright and poet, _Othello_
>Believe me, I had rather have lost my purse
>Full of crusadoes: and, but my noble Moor
>Is true of mind and made of no such baseness
>As jealous creatures are, it were enough
>To put him to ill thinking.
James Joyce, famous Irish novelist, _Finnegan's Wake_
> riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend 1
>of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to 2
>Howth Castle and Environs. 3
> Sir Tristram, violer d'amores, fr'over the short sea, had passen- 4
>core rearrived from North Armorica on this side the scraggy 5
>isthmus of Europe Minor to wielderfight his penisolate war: nor 6
>had topsawyer's rocks by the stream Oconee exaggerated themselse 7
>to Laurens County's gorgios while they went doublin their mumper 8
>all the time: nor avoice from afire bellowsed mishe mishe to 9
>tauftauf thuartpeatrick: not yet, though venissoon after, had a 10
>kidscad buttended a bland old isaac: not yet, though all's fair in 11
>vanessy, were sosie sesthers wroth with twone nathandjoe. Rot a 12
>peck of pa's malt had Jhem or Shen brewed by arclight and rory 13
>end to the regginbrow was to be seen ringsome on the aquaface.
What was that about needing a dictionary? There ain't no dictionary
with most of the words in Finnegan's Wake.
>I think it's easier to make more sense out of Nostradamus' writings
>than some of this drivel.
Yet there is truly great literature that is much harder to make sense
out of.
>Welcome to the morass of self-absorbed multiculturalism, where urban
> "relevance" is the be-all and end-all of the intellectual experience.
> Where teachers are listening partners, rather than imparters of
> knowledge. Where Fat Albert and Prince Hamlet are equals.
Have you a problem with the comedies of Mr. Cosby? I would not compare
Fat Albert to Hamlet, but a comparison to Bottom of A Midsummer
Night's Dream would be more in order:
>BOTTOM
>That will ask some tears in the true performing of
>it: if I do it, let the audience look to their
>eyes; I will move storms, I will condole in some
>measure. To the rest: yet my chief humour is for a
>tyrant: I could play Ercles rarely, or a part to
>tear a cat in, to make all split.
>The raging rocks
>And shivering shocks
>Shall break the locks
>Of prison gates;
>And Phibbus' car
>Shall shine from far
>And make and mar
>The foolish Fates.
Hey that rap has a pretty good beat.
> Where
> education has been reduced to the false art of "feelin' it" and
> "keepin' it real."
Methinks the rappers would have been quite at home with the Bard in
Elizabethan times. After all, acting and play writing was hardly a
noble profession in those days.
>What a stinking pile of horse doodoo.
What? Looking in a mirror?
>Yer taxpayer dollars at work.
Yep. These kids are reading and writing, so I expect to hear no
nonsense about how they can't read their diploma.
lojbab
Roger Brown
>So yer saying that it's *OK* to waste taxpayer dollars like they do in
>Crenshaw High? Do you really believe these folks are getting a good
>education?
It's impossible to tell from her slanted and fact-lite rendition. Why
do you repeat such crap? Shakespeare has been updated many times, and
in many different ways, some of them very effective.
Karl
news:3E2634D1...@worldnet.att.net...
> The DAFN_Shelf in Big Don's library is pleased to serve:
>
> 1. Smiitherman, G., "Black Talk", Houghton-Mifflin, NY, 1994
>
> 2. Westbrook, A., "Hip-Hoptionary" Broadway Books, NY, 2002
>
> Also, Amazon.com has some juicy-looking titles:
>
> African-American English: Structure, History, and Usage
> by Salikoko S. Mufwene (Editor)
>
> African American Vernacular English: Features, Evolution, Educational
> Implications (Language in Society (Oxford, England), 26.)
> by John R. Rickford (Paperback)
It really upsets you, doesn't it, that black American culture is finally
becoming recognised?
You should be grateful - without black input American culture might be
reduced to McDonalds and Michael Bolton.
make...@worldnet.att.net
Karl wrote:
>
> <make...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>
> > The DAFN_Shelf in Big Don's library is pleased to serve:
> >
> > 1. Smiitherman, G., "Black Talk", Houghton-Mifflin, NY, 1994
> >
> > 2. Westbrook, A., "Hip-Hoptionary" Broadway Books, NY, 2002
> >
> > Also, Amazon.com has some juicy-looking titles:
> >
> > African-American English: Structure, History, and Usage
> > by Salikoko S. Mufwene (Editor)
> >
> > African American Vernacular English: Features, Evolution, Educational
> > Implications (Language in Society (Oxford, England), 26.)
> > by John R. Rickford (Paperback)
>
> It really upsets you, doesn't it, that black American culture is finally
> becoming recognised?
No. Absolutely not.
On the contrary, it is important that degeneracy be well-documented.
> You should be grateful - without black input American culture might be
> reduced to McDonalds and Michael Bolton.
Hey! Chuck Berry is cool.
DAFNz have always been good for entertainment....
Karl
news:nkld2vov2suebhmeu...@4ax.com...
Well... there's always David Haselhof.
Cary Kittrell
Not to mention "polkas or waltzes, reels or jigs" (quote from his
vision of a White future by the seriously dead Dr. William Pierce)
-- cary
Unknown
wrote:
>On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:08:08 -0500, VoiceOfWhiteIgnorance <> wrote:
Sure, West Side Story comes to mind, which won a slew of awards, on
the stage and silver screen. That of course, is NOT the point of her
article. Plus as she pointed out, the works of Shakespeare and others
of his era have stood the test of time.
How long has Tupuc Shakur been dead? Four or five years, maybe?
Now, since you claim to know so many blacks, can you arrange to have
this translated:
"MCs think I'm like an artery because I bring the flow,
but I'm really just vain so in case you don't know,
I put out wack MCs like yo momma put out the booty
You think you a big baller, but you the smallest like Rudy… "
Or even just this: "Blaze up, gettin' with hos through my pager. "
Does this mean he's whispering sweet nothings into his woman's ear,
via instant messaging?
I'm just wondering how this helps educate the young folks of South
Central, and God knows they need better schools.
Unknown
wrote:
So, instead, it's reduced to this:
"MCs think I'm like an artery because I bring the flow,
but I'm really just vain so in case you don't know,
I put out wack MCs like yo momma put out the booty
You think you a big baller, but you the smallest like Rudy… "
Now if you can tell WHAT the hell he's babbling about, those of us
poor, uninformed honkies will be grateful.
Roger Brown
>Sure, West Side Story comes to mind, which won a slew of awards, on
>the stage and silver screen. That of course, is NOT the point of her
>article. Plus as she pointed out, the works of Shakespeare and others
>of his era have stood the test of time.
The point of the article, muddled as it is, is false. The fact that
the teacher at Crenshaw uses rap as a teaching strategy does not
indicate that the teacher does not use many other educational
strategies, including those of a more classical nature. Malkin makes
no such claim, either, but instead gets into a generalized rant at
modern education, and her rant is weakly supported. There is such a
tiny snippet of what happened in the class room that it is impossible
to make a judgement one way or another. Malkin is referring to another
article from which she extracts only a very small piece. Your use of
it takes it back one generation further. There is almost nothing there
for you to base an opinion on, because you didn't read the original
article she refers to.
quote from the little piece of original article:
"Reports Hayasaki: "A lively discussion ensued about sexism, racism
and how degrading terms such as "ho" -- slang for "whore" -- can be
used to dehumanize and divide people. In hip-hop terms, the students
were feelin' it."
The teacher was using the class to point out the degrading terms for
women in rap lyrics. This sounds like a positive activity to me. The
teacher was also using pop culture to make a bridge into classical
literature for students with no exposure to it , which is another good
teaching strategy.
Roger Brown
>So, instead, it's reduced to this:
>
>"MCs think I'm like an artery because I bring the flow,
>but I'm really just vain so in case you don't know,
>I put out wack MCs like yo momma put out the booty
>You think you a big baller, but you the smallest like Rudy… "
>
>Now if you can tell WHAT the hell he's babbling about, those of us
>poor, uninformed honkies will be grateful.
It's pretty obvious. He is bragging about his rapping ability, "the
flow", and uses the blood flow of an artery as a metaphor. He conquers
other rappers, and speaks as to how he puts less talented rappers out
of business, by using additional metaphors of the smallness of Rudy
Guiliani, and the easy sexual ways of the other rapper's mother using
a pun with "put out". It is simply bragging.
You can learn about metaphors at your local community college, when
you start to get an education.
Unknown
wrote:
>On Thu, 16 Jan 2003 20:51:52 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>
>
>>So, instead, it's reduced to this:
>>
>>"MCs think I'm like an artery because I bring the flow,
>>but I'm really just vain so in case you don't know,
>>I put out wack MCs like yo momma put out the booty
>>You think you a big baller, but you the smallest like Rudy… "
>>
>>Now if you can tell WHAT the hell he's babbling about, those of us
>>poor, uninformed honkies will be grateful.
>
>It's pretty obvious.
IF you speak Ebonics / hiphop.
>He is bragging about his rapping ability, "the
>flow", and uses the blood flow of an artery as a metaphor. He conquers
>other rappers, and speaks as to how he puts less talented rappers out
>of business, by using additional metaphors of the smallness of Rudy
>Guiliani, and the easy sexual ways of the other rapper's mother using
>a pun with "put out". It is simply bragging.
I see. Now, did you figure this out on yer own, or did you get one of
the many blacks you claim to know to give you some clues?
No one wonder rappers are constantly fighting (and sometimes shooting)
among each other, if this is about "conquering" the other guy and
dissing his moma. And WHY is Rudy Giuiliani considered "small"?
>You can learn about metaphors at your local community college, when
>you start to get an education.
Well as a matter of fact, I checked out the local commnuity college,
and although they were familiar with what metaphors are, they had no
one on hand who could speak Ebonics or hiphop. Without which,
metaphors might as well be written in Greek.
Unknown
wrote:
>On Thu, 16 Jan 2003 20:49:22 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>
>>Sure, West Side Story comes to mind, which won a slew of awards, on
>>the stage and silver screen. That of course, is NOT the point of her
>>article. Plus as she pointed out, the works of Shakespeare and others
>>of his era have stood the test of time.
>
>The point of the article, muddled as it is, is false. The fact that
>the teacher at Crenshaw uses rap as a teaching strategy does not
>indicate that the teacher does not use many other educational
>strategies, including those of a more classical nature. Malkin makes
>no such claim, either, but instead gets into a generalized rant at
>modern education, and her rant is weakly supported. There is such a
>tiny snippet of what happened in the class room that it is impossible
>to make a judgement one way or another. Malkin is referring to another
>article from which she extracts only a very small piece. Your use of
>it takes it back one generation further. There is almost nothing there
>for you to base an opinion on, because you didn't read the original
>article she refers to.
I read it, and went back and re-read it. She DID suggest that some
works have stood the test of time , and it's clear that anything by
Tupac Shakur could not have met that test and might not ever. But
you'd have to wait about 100 years or so to be sure. Get back to us
then.
>quote from the little piece of original article:
>"Reports Hayasaki: "A lively discussion ensued about sexism, racism
>and how degrading terms such as "ho" -- slang for "whore" -- can be
>used to dehumanize and divide people. In hip-hop terms, the students
>were feelin' it."
The term "lively discussion" usually means that a subtantial number of
those present *disagreed* whatver premise was on the table. No doubt
here it means that the students told the teacher to stick it when she
suggested that words like "ho" are dehumanizing.
>The teacher was using the class to point out the degrading terms for
>women in rap lyrics. This sounds like a positive activity to me.
Why can't she just conduct a lesson making the point that terms like
"bitch" and "ho" are no good? Why have them study Shakur as if he
were Shakespeare.
>The
>teacher was also using pop culture to make a bridge into classical
>literature for students with no exposure to it , which is another good
>teaching strategy.
Sheer nonsense.
Bob LeChevalier
>I read it, and went back and re-read it. She DID suggest that some
>works have stood the test of time , and it's clear that anything by
>Tupac Shakur could not have met that test and might not ever. But
>you'd have to wait about 100 years or so to be sure. Get back to us
>then.
Why is it clear? Much of the Beatles' work has stood 40 years, and it
was at least as loudly condemned by the mainstream in its time.
Peter, Paul, and Mary of that vintage are still performing. Many of
Elvis Presley's songs from the 50s are better known than 90% of the
20th century "classical" composers whose works "stood the test of
time" to actually get played by the best orchestras.
But how does one learn to judge what sorts of stuff stands the test of
time, if one doesn't look at stuff on both sides of the line using
similar analysis?
>>quote from the little piece of original article:
>>"Reports Hayasaki: "A lively discussion ensued about sexism, racism
>>and how degrading terms such as "ho" -- slang for "whore" -- can be
>>used to dehumanize and divide people. In hip-hop terms, the students
>>were feelin' it."
>
>The term "lively discussion" usually means that a subtantial number of
>those present *disagreed* whatver premise was on the table.
Proof by random assertion.
>>The teacher was using the class to point out the degrading terms for
>>women in rap lyrics. This sounds like a positive activity to me.
>
>Why can't she just conduct a lesson making the point that terms like
>"bitch" and "ho" are no good?
Why should a teenager listen to an adult lecturer and believe what
they are told merely by assertion?
>Why have them study Shakur as if he were Shakespeare.
So they can see why is not considered Shakespeare (who used no small
amount of dialect and creative English himself - lots of words in
Shakespeare are found in no earlier works of English. In his day,
Shakespeare may have been considered a Tupac - indeed he probably
was.)
>>The
>>teacher was also using pop culture to make a bridge into classical
>>literature for students with no exposure to it , which is another good
>>teaching strategy.
>
>Sheer nonsense.
Only because you haven't a clue how the typical kid learns.
lojbab
Unknown
wrote:
>VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>>I read it, and went back and re-read it. She DID suggest that some
>>works have stood the test of time , and it's clear that anything by
>>Tupac Shakur could not have met that test and might not ever. But
>>you'd have to wait about 100 years or so to be sure. Get back to us
>>then.
>
>Why is it clear? Much of the Beatles' work has stood 40 years, and it
>was at least as loudly condemned by the mainstream in its time.
>Peter, Paul, and Mary of that vintage are still performing. Many of
>Elvis Presley's songs from the 50s are better known than 90% of the
>20th century "classical" composers whose works "stood the test of
>time" to actually get played by the best orchestras.
OK, but no one in their right mind has compared Tupac to the Beatles
nor Elvis. And sorry, but 4 or 5 years does NOT constitute having
stood the "test of time".
Now, its certainly possible, even probable, that 100 years from now,
folks will still be listening to the Beatles and Elvis. OTOH, I
really don't believe that will be the case with Tupac or his ilk, but
I'm perfectly willing to wait 100 or so years to find out.
>But how does one learn to judge what sorts of stuff stands the test of
>time, if one doesn't look at stuff on both sides of the line using
>similar analysis?
What line? Time is a continuum.
>>>quote from the little piece of original article:
>>>"Reports Hayasaki: "A lively discussion ensued about sexism, racism
>>>and how degrading terms such as "ho" -- slang for "whore" -- can be
>>>used to dehumanize and divide people. In hip-hop terms, the students
>>>were feelin' it."
>>
>>The term "lively discussion" usually means that a subtantial number of
>>those present *disagreed* whatver premise was on the table.
>
>Proof by random assertion.
Nothing random about the term "lively discussion".
>>>The teacher was using the class to point out the degrading terms for
>>>women in rap lyrics. This sounds like a positive activity to me.
>>
>>Why can't she just conduct a lesson making the point that terms like
>>"bitch" and "ho" are no good?
>
>Why should a teenager listen to an adult lecturer and believe what
>they are told merely by assertion?
That's why they go to school for.
>>Why have them study Shakur as if he were Shakespeare.
>
>So they can see why is not considered Shakespeare (who used no small
>amount of dialect and creative English himself - lots of words in
>Shakespeare are found in no earlier works of English. In his day,
>Shakespeare may have been considered a Tupac - indeed he probably
>was.)
No, I don't think so. But if you can show me where he repeatedly
wrote about disrespecting women, killing rivals, etc, show us.
>>>The
>>>teacher was also using pop culture to make a bridge into classical
>>>literature for students with no exposure to it , which is another good
>>>teaching strategy.
>>
>>Sheer nonsense.
>
>Only because you haven't a clue how the typical kid learns.
That doesn't make it right.
Roger Brown
>I see. Now, did you figure this out on yer own, or did you get one of
>the many blacks you claim to know to give you some clues?
I read what you posted.
>No one wonder rappers are constantly fighting (and sometimes shooting)
>among each other, if this is about "conquering" the other guy and
>dissing his moma.
Much of hip-hop lyrics are about bragging, from what I've seen, not
that I'm an expert. One MC is supposed to conquer another through
clever word play.
>And WHY is Rudy Giuiliani considered "small"?
He is disliked by many African-Americans.
>Well as a matter of fact, I checked out the local commnuity college,
>and although they were familiar with what metaphors are, they had no
>one on hand who could speak Ebonics or hiphop. Without which,
>metaphors might as well be written in Greek.
I had no problem reading them at all. I don't know what your
difficulty is.
Roger Brown
>On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 04:54:53 GMT, bro...@erols.com (Roger Brown)
>wrote:
>>quote from the little piece of original article:
>>"Reports Hayasaki: "A lively discussion ensued about sexism, racism
>>and how degrading terms such as "ho" -- slang for "whore" -- can be
>>used to dehumanize and divide people. In hip-hop terms, the students
>>were feelin' it."
>
>The term "lively discussion" usually means that a subtantial number of
>those present *disagreed* whatver premise was on the table. No doubt
>here it means that the students told the teacher to stick it when she
>suggested that words like "ho" are dehumanizing.
As Bob pointed out, a random assumption on your part. Lively
discussions are the best way to get students to think for themselves,
which is probably the best gift a teacher can give a student: critical
thinking skills. Something you are very lacking in.
>
>>The teacher was using the class to point out the degrading terms for
>>women in rap lyrics. This sounds like a positive activity to me.
>
>Why can't she just conduct a lesson making the point that terms like
>"bitch" and "ho" are no good? Why have them study Shakur as if he
>were Shakespeare.
Why not? It is poetry of a sort, and it is used as a bridge to get to
Shakespeare.
>>The
>>teacher was also using pop culture to make a bridge into classical
>>literature for students with no exposure to it , which is another good
>>teaching strategy.
>
>Sheer nonsense.
You've never taught, or been taught, apparently.
Unknown
wrote:
>On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 12:12:07 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 04:54:53 GMT, bro...@erols.com (Roger Brown)
>>wrote:
>
>>>quote from the little piece of original article:
>>>"Reports Hayasaki: "A lively discussion ensued about sexism, racism
>>>and how degrading terms such as "ho" -- slang for "whore" -- can be
>>>used to dehumanize and divide people. In hip-hop terms, the students
>>>were feelin' it."
>>
>>The term "lively discussion" usually means that a subtantial number of
>>those present *disagreed* whatver premise was on the table. No doubt
>>here it means that the students told the teacher to stick it when she
>>suggested that words like "ho" are dehumanizing.
>
>As Bob pointed out, a random assumption on your part. Lively
>discussions are the best way to get students to think for themselves,
>which is probably the best gift a teacher can give a student: critical
>thinking skills. Something you are very lacking in.
Wrong on all counts. A "lively discussion" means that there is
dissent from whatever POV is presented. In this case, since
presumably the teacher is running the class, the teacher no doubt
presented or expressed problems with young men referring to their
women as "bitches" and "hos".
Thus I'm quite comfortable that the dissent came from many of the
"students", and thus were defending their curious choice of language.
>>>The teacher was using the class to point out the degrading terms for
>>>women in rap lyrics. This sounds like a positive activity to me.
>>
>>Why can't she just conduct a lesson making the point that terms like
>>"bitch" and "ho" are no good? Why have them study Shakur as if he
>>were Shakespeare.
>
>Why not? It is poetry of a sort, and it is used as a bridge to get to
>Shakespeare.
People have studied The Bard for centuries, without needing a
"bridge". Are you suggesting that inner-city students don't have what
it takes to read Hamlet, Othello, etc?
>>>The
>>>teacher was also using pop culture to make a bridge into classical
>>>literature for students with no exposure to it , which is another good
>>>teaching strategy.
>>
>>Sheer nonsense.
>
>You've never taught, or been taught, apparently.
Good guess.
But I *have* been a student, and for longer a period of time than you
keep deluding yerself. In high school, I read many of Shakespeare's
works, and even older stuff too, like the Canterbury Tales. And
without any "bridges".
Unknown
wrote:
>On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 10:31:51 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>
>>I see. Now, did you figure this out on yer own, or did you get one of
>>the many blacks you claim to know to give you some clues?
>
>I read what you posted.
And? You must be listening to a hell of a lot of rap to be able to
look at some gobbledegook and figure what the hell the rapper was
trying to say (if he was trying to say anything coherent at all).
>>No one wonder rappers are constantly fighting (and sometimes shooting)
>>among each other, if this is about "conquering" the other guy and
>>dissing his moma.
>
>Much of hip-hop lyrics are about bragging, from what I've seen, not
>that I'm an expert. One MC is supposed to conquer another through
>clever word play.
And, apparently, through clever gun play too, sometimes.
>>And WHY is Rudy Giuiliani considered "small"?
>
>He is disliked by many African-Americans.
No kidding. But WHY, especially for those outside of NYC? Because
someone told them not to like him?
>>Well as a matter of fact, I checked out the local commnuity college,
>>and although they were familiar with what metaphors are, they had no
>>one on hand who could speak Ebonics or hiphop. Without which,
>>metaphors might as well be written in Greek.
>
>I had no problem reading them at all. I don't know what your
>difficulty is.
My difficulty is that I don't speak variants like Ebonics, Hiphop,
etc, have no plans to, and neither do about 80% of Americans.
I guess being a wannabee has its advantages....
Joni Rathbun
On Sat, 18 Jan 2003, it was written:
There was nothing in the snippet you provided that required a knowledge
of Ebonics (you don't even know what that is) or Hip hop (you don't
know what that is either obviously) to interpret. Not a thing. The
only thing hip hoppish about it (there was no hint of Ebonics) was
how it was pieced together, not the words or their meaning, some
of which have been in use since (at least) I was a kid in the 60s.
You're either stupid or being deliberately obtuse.
WHether Tupac will endure or not, I have no idea. But the political
and cultural influence of hip hop will not be forgotten and has
already shaped part of a generation. There's simply no escaping that,
even if you have no clue what it's all about (which you clearly
do not). But like you, they too shall grow old and start buying music
collections "only available from this television offer!"
BTW, Tupac appeals to all sorts of young people, not just Blacks.
Joni Rathbun
On Sat, 18 Jan 2003, it was written:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:29:10 GMT, bro...@erols.com (Roger Brown)
You've never spoken to these kids I assume. In fact, you probably
won't even drive through their neighborhood.
But yes, they will defend the use because to many, that's not how
they define the words in question. Sort of like gay.... and gay.
There are all sorts of ways to look at it but when a kid uses
the term "ho" or "bitch" it may not mean what you think it means.
A teacher may be able to get them to look at the bigger picture
through discussion.
> >>>The teacher was using the class to point out the degrading terms for
> >>>women in rap lyrics. This sounds like a positive activity to me.
> >>
> >>Why can't she just conduct a lesson making the point that terms like
> >>"bitch" and "ho" are no good? Why have them study Shakur as if he
> >>were Shakespeare.
> >
> >Why not? It is poetry of a sort, and it is used as a bridge to get to
> >Shakespeare.
>
> People have studied The Bard for centuries, without needing a
> "bridge". Are you suggesting that inner-city students don't have what
> it takes to read Hamlet, Othello, etc?
Many have failed to study Shakespeare too.
A good teacher will draw upon students' previous knowledge and
background to help kids make connections. Many kids need help in seeing
the relevance and don't just accept, "We're studying Shakespeare just
because" as a convincing introduction. I've seen many kids develop at
least an appreciation for Shakespeare (and other "classic" authors) when
approached this way. You hear a lot of, "Aha! I didn't realize that!"
kind of comments from them. "Now I get it. This is interesting!"
In fact, I heard that from two kids just last week. They were talking
about Faulkner but it was the Same Thing (tm).
>
> >>>The
> >>>teacher was also using pop culture to make a bridge into classical
> >>>literature for students with no exposure to it , which is another good
> >>>teaching strategy.
> >>
> >>Sheer nonsense.
> >
> >You've never taught, or been taught, apparently.
>
> Good guess.
>
> But I *have* been a student, and for longer a period of time than you
> keep deluding yerself. In high school, I read many of Shakespeare's
> works, and even older stuff too, like the Canterbury Tales. And
> without any "bridges".
>
And a lot of the kids we're talking about here have had experiences
you couldn't imagine. Some are far older than you will ever be.
Wayne Johnson
>OK, but no one in their right mind has compared Tupac to the Beatles
"...I am the egg man....I am the walrus....goo goo ka choo..."
Explain that.
>nor Elvis.
"...a hukka hukka burnin love...."
Explain that.
Wayne "If possible" Johnson
************************************************
"Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something."
- last words of Pancho Villa (1877-1923)
Bob LeChevalier
>On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 18:34:53 GMT, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org>
>wrote:
>>VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>>>I read it, and went back and re-read it. She DID suggest that some
>>>works have stood the test of time , and it's clear that anything by
>>>Tupac Shakur could not have met that test and might not ever. But
>>>you'd have to wait about 100 years or so to be sure. Get back to us
>>>then.
>>
>>Why is it clear? Much of the Beatles' work has stood 40 years, and it
>>was at least as loudly condemned by the mainstream in its time.
>>Peter, Paul, and Mary of that vintage are still performing. Many of
>>Elvis Presley's songs from the 50s are better known than 90% of the
>>20th century "classical" composers whose works "stood the test of
>>time" to actually get played by the best orchestras.
>
>OK, but no one in their right mind has compared Tupac to the Beatles
>nor Elvis.
But 40 years ago, they would have said "no one in their right mind has
compared the Beatles to XYZ [Big Band leader who has since been
forgotten]". We really have no idea what people will say in 10 years
or 40 years about the performers of today.
>And sorry, but 4 or 5 years does NOT constitute having
>stood the "test of time".
>
>Now, its certainly possible, even probable, that 100 years from now,
>folks will still be listening to the Beatles and Elvis.
But folks would not have said that at the time when their stuff was
new.
>OTOH, I
>really don't believe that will be the case with Tupac or his ilk, but
>I'm perfectly willing to wait 100 or so years to find out.
Seems more likely that Eminem will be the one who is remembered.
>>But how does one learn to judge what sorts of stuff stands the test of
>>time, if one doesn't look at stuff on both sides of the line using
>>similar analysis?
>
>What line? Time is a continuum.
I mean the line of quality/artistic influence such that art that is
beyond that line is remembered and art that is not, is forgotten.
>>>>quote from the little piece of original article:
>>>>"Reports Hayasaki: "A lively discussion ensued about sexism, racism
>>>>and how degrading terms such as "ho" -- slang for "whore" -- can be
>>>>used to dehumanize and divide people. In hip-hop terms, the students
>>>>were feelin' it."
>>>
>>>The term "lively discussion" usually means that a subtantial number of
>>>those present *disagreed* whatver premise was on the table.
>>
>>Proof by random assertion.
>
>Nothing random about the term "lively discussion".
The term "lively discussion" has a clear denotation, and could have
several different connotations.
>>>>The teacher was using the class to point out the degrading terms for
>>>>women in rap lyrics. This sounds like a positive activity to me.
>>>
>>>Why can't she just conduct a lesson making the point that terms like
>>>"bitch" and "ho" are no good?
>>
>>Why should a teenager listen to an adult lecturer and believe what
>>they are told merely by assertion?
>
>That's why they go to school for.
Nope. Do you believe everything you are told? Why do you think a
teenager at peak rebellion will?
Furthermore, we don't especially just want kids to memorize a bunch of
trivia; we want them to learn to think, to research, and to argue
intelligently (as opposed to what you are doing).
>>>Why have them study Shakur as if he were Shakespeare.
>>
>>So they can see why is not considered Shakespeare (who used no small
>>amount of dialect and creative English himself - lots of words in
>>Shakespeare are found in no earlier works of English. In his day,
>>Shakespeare may have been considered a Tupac - indeed he probably
>>was.)
>
>No, I don't think so. But if you can show me where he repeatedly
>wrote about disrespecting women, killing rivals, etc, show us.
Lots of killing rivals, and by modern standards, most of it was
disrespecting women too.
Besides, Shakespeare isn't the only great literature. I'm partial to
Burton's translation of the Arabian Nights, which cannot be studied in
high schools because the real stuff is X-rated (with lots of killing
and disrespecting to boot).
>>>>The
>>>>teacher was also using pop culture to make a bridge into classical
>>>>literature for students with no exposure to it , which is another good
>>>>teaching strategy.
>>>
>>>Sheer nonsense.
>>
>>Only because you haven't a clue how the typical kid learns.
>
>That doesn't make it right.
If the kid learns, then it certainly IS right.
lojbab
Unknown
Wrong. It was all gibberish.
>The
>only thing hip hoppish about it (there was no hint of Ebonics) was
Ebonics, hiphop, they're all variants.
>how it was pieced together, not the words or their meaning, some
>of which have been in use since (at least) I was a kid in the 60s.
So what? You've obviously been hangin' in some strange places for 30+
years. Yer probably no stranger to controlled substances either.
>You're either stupid or being deliberately obtuse.
No and no.
>WHether Tupac will endure or not, I have no idea. But the political
>and cultural influence of hip hop will not be forgotten and has
>already shaped part of a generation. There's simply no escaping that,
>even if you have no clue what it's all about (which you clearly
>do not). But like you, they too shall grow old and start buying music
>collections "only available from this television offer!"
Not necessarily. Rappers and their hangers-on have a much lower life
expectancy. They very well may never make it past 40.
>BTW, Tupac appeals to all sorts of young people, not just Blacks.
Yes, he appeals to some foolish suburban white teens and pre-teens,
flush with cash that their dopey parents throw at them to get them out
of the house.
Bob LeChevalier
>>>The term "lively discussion" usually means that a subtantial number of
>>>those present *disagreed* whatver premise was on the table. No doubt
>>>here it means that the students told the teacher to stick it when she
>>>suggested that words like "ho" are dehumanizing.
>>
>>As Bob pointed out, a random assumption on your part. Lively
>>discussions are the best way to get students to think for themselves,
>>which is probably the best gift a teacher can give a student: critical
>>thinking skills. Something you are very lacking in.
>
>Wrong on all counts. A "lively discussion" means that there is
>dissent from whatever POV is presented.
Maybe in YOUR dialect. In mine, it means that there was discussion in
which the entire class got actively involved, as opposed to the
traditional lecture where most of the class zombifies, and a couple of
better students ask questions that the rest of the class ignores.
Any teacher worth their salt doesn't merely make statements and asks
the class to agree or disagree. That is dead weight to a discussion -
the kids know the answer the teacher wants, and they either give it or
they don't They learn nothing. But ask the kids open-ended
questions, with no clear right or wrong answer, and they might learn
to think.
>In this case, since
>presumably the teacher is running the class, the teacher no doubt
>presented or expressed problems with young men referring to their
>women as "bitches" and "hos".
Probably, but that might not have caused much dissent or discussion.
A better question would be to ask WHY they used those words, whether
indeed they were TRYING to be disrespectful, or merely macho. The
girls might have expressed their opinion about how they feel when such
words are used, and what they think of a guy who tries impressing them
with insulting language. This can segue into a discussion of how else
someone could express the same feelings more effectively (maybe with a
short scene with Falstaff from Henry IV:
>FALSTAFF
>Go, hang thyself in thine own heir-apparent
>garters! If I be ta'en, I'll peach for this. An I
>have not ballads made on you all and sung to filthy
>tunes, let a cup of sack be my poison: when a jest
>is so forward, and afoot too! I hate it.
...
>FALSTAFF
>Strike; down with them; cut the villains' throats:
>ah! whoreson caterpillars! bacon-fed knaves! they
>hate us youth: down with them: fleece them.
>
>Travellers
>O, we are undone, both we and ours for ever!
>
>FALSTAFF
>Hang ye, gorbellied knaves, are ye undone? No, ye
>fat chuffs: I would your store were here! On,
>bacons, on! What, ye knaves! young men must live.
>You are Grand-jurors, are ye? we'll jure ye, 'faith.
>
>Here they rob them and bind them. Exeunt
I daresay that Bill S.'s language here was comparable to a Tupac for
his day.
or a longer speech, showing lots of colorful language:
>FALSTAFF
>If I be not ashamed of my soldiers, I am a soused
>gurnet. I have misused the king's press damnably.
>I have got, in exchange of a hundred and fifty
>soldiers, three hundred and odd pounds. I press me
>none but good house-holders, yeoman's sons; inquire
>me out contracted bachelors, such as had been asked
>twice on the banns; such a commodity of warm slaves,
>as had as lieve hear the devil as a drum; such as
>fear the report of a caliver worse than a struck
>fowl or a hurt wild-duck. I pressed me none but such
>toasts-and-butter, with hearts in their bellies no
>bigger than pins' heads, and they have bought out
>their services; and now my whole charge consists of
>ancients, corporals, lieutenants, gentlemen of
>companies, slaves as ragged as Lazarus in the
>painted cloth, where the glutton's dogs licked his
>sores; and such as indeed were never soldiers, but
>discarded unjust serving-men, younger sons to
>younger brothers, revolted tapsters and ostlers
>trade-fallen, the cankers of a calm world and a
>long peace, ten times more dishonourable ragged than
>an old faced ancient: and such have I, to fill up
>the rooms of them that have bought out their
>services, that you would think that I had a hundred
>and fifty tattered prodigals lately come from
>swine-keeping, from eating draff and husks. A mad
>fellow met me on the way and told me I had unloaded
>all the gibbets and pressed the dead bodies. No eye
>hath seen such scarecrows. I'll not march through
>Coventry with them, that's flat: nay, and the
>villains march wide betwixt the legs, as if they had
>gyves on; for indeed I had the most of them out of
>prison. There's but a shirt and a half in all my
>company; and the half shirt is two napkins tacked
>together and thrown over the shoulders like an
>herald's coat without sleeves; and the shirt, to say
>the truth, stolen from my host at Saint Alban's, or
>the red-nose innkeeper of Daventry. But that's all
>one; they'll find linen enough on every hedge.
>Thus I'm quite comfortable that the dissent came from many of the
>"students", and thus were defending their curious choice of language.
But that of course would be the wrong question.
>>>>The teacher was using the class to point out the degrading terms for
>>>>women in rap lyrics. This sounds like a positive activity to me.
>>>
>>>Why can't she just conduct a lesson making the point that terms like
>>>"bitch" and "ho" are no good? Why have them study Shakur as if he
>>>were Shakespeare.
>>
>>Why not? It is poetry of a sort, and it is used as a bridge to get to
>>Shakespeare.
>
>People have studied The Bard for centuries, without needing a
>"bridge".
And most haven't understood what they read, given that you cannot come
up with useful comparisons between the Bard and Tupac.
>Are you suggesting that inner-city students don't have what
>it takes to read Hamlet, Othello, etc?
I'm unconvinced that YOU have what it takes to read them in their
proper spirit. It's clear that you think of Shakespeare as high
literature, failing to realize it was the lowbrow stuff in its day.
Actors and playwrights were no more acceptable in high society than
rappers are today. Shakespeare has more in common with Tupac, than
with Dickens or Tennyson.
>>>Sheer nonsense.
>>
>>You've never taught, or been taught, apparently.
>
>Good guess.
>
>But I *have* been a student, and for longer a period of time than you
>keep deluding yerself. In high school, I read many of Shakespeare's
>works, and even older stuff too, like the Canterbury Tales. And
>without any "bridges".
And you understood everything you read? No doubt you are widely
published as a Shakespearean scholar if you understood the Bard THAT
well.
Maybe YOU need a bridge.
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier
>>>And WHY is Rudy Giuiliani considered "small"?
>>
>>He is disliked by many African-Americans.
>
>No kidding. But WHY, especially for those outside of NYC? Because
>someone told them not to like him?
This is what is called in literature a "cultural reference". The Bard
abounds with references to Greeks, Romans, and Englishmen of note, who
the typical playgoer might or might not have known.
>>>Well as a matter of fact, I checked out the local commnuity college,
>>>and although they were familiar with what metaphors are, they had no
>>>one on hand who could speak Ebonics or hiphop. Without which,
>>>metaphors might as well be written in Greek.
>>
>>I had no problem reading them at all. I don't know what your
>>difficulty is.
>
>My difficulty is that I don't speak variants like Ebonics, Hiphop,
>etc, have no plans to, and neither do about 80% of Americans.
But you speak Elizabethan English perfectly in order to understand the
Bard, and Middle English perfectly in order to understand Chaucer,
when 99% of Americans do not speak those now-dead variants?
lojbab
Joni Rathbun
On Sat, 18 Jan 2003, the Voice of Nonsense said:
> >There was nothing in the snippet you provided that required a knowledge
> >of Ebonics (you don't even know what that is) or Hip hop (you don't
> >know what that is either obviously) to interpret. Not a thing.
>
> Wrong. It was all gibberish.
Point out the ebonics or the hip hop words. Demonstrate how a knowledge of
either is required to interpret the snippet. It could be all sorts of
gibberish without a hint of ebonics or hip hop. Gibberish exists
independently of both. You're trying to make something out of nothing.
>
> >The
> >only thing hip hoppish about it (there was no hint of Ebonics) was
>
> Ebonics, hiphop, they're all variants.
What ignorance. Why don't you find a topic you know something about.
>
> >how it was pieced together, not the words or their meaning, some
> >of which have been in use since (at least) I was a kid in the 60s.
>
> So what? You've obviously been hangin' in some strange places for 30+
> years. Yer probably no stranger to controlled substances either.
>
Common tactic among those who don't know what they're talking about.
I am a teacher who works with ghetto and gang kids. They're real people
with real hopes and dreams and needs. They're still young enough to learn
what we know but you'll never learn what they know.
> >You're either stupid or being deliberately obtuse.
>
> No and no.
>
> >WHether Tupac will endure or not, I have no idea. But the political
> >and cultural influence of hip hop will not be forgotten and has
> >already shaped part of a generation. There's simply no escaping that,
> >even if you have no clue what it's all about (which you clearly
> >do not). But like you, they too shall grow old and start buying music
> >collections "only available from this television offer!"
>
> Not necessarily. Rappers and their hangers-on have a much lower life
> expectancy. They very well may never make it past 40.
The listeners are doing just fine.
>
> >BTW, Tupac appeals to all sorts of young people, not just Blacks.
>
> Yes, he appeals to some foolish suburban white teens and pre-teens,
> flush with cash that their dopey parents throw at them to get them out
> of the house.
>
He appeals to kids from all walks of life - for various and whatever
reasons.
Wayne Johnson
>Not necessarily. Rappers and their hangers-on have a much lower life
>expectancy. They very well may never make it past 40.
Just rappers? How can you be this ignorant, and still use that fake
screen name?
From http://users.efortress.com/doc-rock/deadrock.html
[just typed "dead musicians" for a Google search] [particularly horrid
are the deaths of Jimmie Lunceford, Jimi Hendrix, Les Harvey, and Jaco
Pastorius...who I didn't know was dead...]
Hank Williams ( Hiram Williams ) - Died 1-1-1953 - Heart attack (
Country & Western ) Born 9-17-1923 in Mt. Olive, Alabama, U.S. (He
did,"Your Cheatin' Heart" and "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry") He was a
member of The Drifting Cowboys - Father of Hank Williams Jr. -
"Country Music Hall of Fame Inductee" and "Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame
Inductee". [drank heavily, too]
Jimmie Lunceford (James Melvin Lunceford) - Died 7-12-1947 - May have
been poisoned by a racist restaurant owner or from a heart attack (
Swing ) Born 6-6-1902 in Fulton, MS, U.S. - Music teacher turned pro -
Played piano and reeds.
Mario Lanza (Alfredo Arnold Cocozza) (aka The Service Caruso) -
Dubbed, the greatest voice of the 20th century - Died 10-7-1959 -
Officially recorded as a heart attack but rumored to be a mob hit (
Pop - Opera ) Born 1-31-1921 in Philadelphia, PA, U.S. (He had hits
with,"Earthbound", "The Drinking Song" and "Arrivederci Roma").
Eddie Cochran ( Ray Edward Cochrane ) - Died 4-17-1960 - Severe brain
injuries from a car accident ( Rock & Roll ) Born 10-3-1938 in Albert
Lea, Minnesota, U.S. (Recorded the original, "Summertime Blues" and
"C'mon Everybody") "Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame Inductee".
Marilyn Monroe (Norma Jean Baker) - Died 8-5-1962 - Overdose of
sleeping pills (Jazz - Pop) Born 1926 in Los Angeles, CA, U.S. (She
recorded,"I Wanna Be Loved By You" and "Diamonds Are A Girl's Best
Friend").
Dinah Washington (Ruth Lee Jones) - Died 12-14-1963 - Accidental
overdose of sleeping pills and alcohol ( Blues - Pop - Country - Jazz
- R&B ) Born 8-29-1924 in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, U.S. (Sang,"What A
Difference A Day Makes" and "September In The Rain") "Rock And Roll
Hall Of Fame Inductee".
Sam Cooke (Samuel Cook)(also recorded as Dale Cooke)- Died 12-11-1964
- One disputed story says he was shot and clubbed to death by a motel
managerette after breaking into her office looking for a woman who
escaped from his motel room that he had forcefully brought there (
Soul - R&B ) Born 1-22-31 in Clarksdale, Mississippi, U.S. (Recorded,
"You Send Me" and "Bring It On Home to Me") Was a member of The Soul
Stirrers - "Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame Inductee".
Brian Epstein - Died 8-27-1967 - Accidental overdose of brandy and
barbiturates ( Rock Manager ) Born 9-19-1934 in Liverpool, England -
Managed The Beatles - Worked with Gerry And The Pacemakers, The
Fourmost, Billy J. Kramer and Cilla Black.
Frankie Lymon - Died 2-28-1968 - Heroin overdose ( Rock and Roll )
Born 9-30-1942 in Washington Heights, New York, U.S. - Was the singer
for The Premiers who became The Teenagers (They did,"Why Do Fools Fall
In Love" and "I'm Not A Juvenile Deliquent") "Rock And Roll Hall Of
Fame Inductee".
Judy Garland (Frances Ethel Gumm) - Died 6-22-1969 - Barbituate
overdose ( Pop - Standards - Show Tunes ) Born 6-10-1922 in Grand
Rapids, MN, U.S. (She did,"Somewhere Over The Rainbow")
Jimi Hendrix ( James Marshall Hendrix ) (aka Jimmy James) - Died
9-18-1970 - Asphyxiated on his vomit after ingesting a heavy dose of
barbiturates ( Rock - Metal - Blues ) Born 11-27-42 in Seattle,
Washington, U.S. as Johnny Allen Hendrix - Was a guitar player and
singer for Jimmy James and Blue Flames, The Jimi Hendrix Experience
(They did, "I Don't Live Today" and "Foxy Lady") and The Band of
Gypsies - He also played for Little Richard, King Curtis, and the
Isley Brothers "Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Inductee"
Janis Joplin (Janis Lyn Joplin)- Died 10-4-1970 - Heroin overdose (
Rock ) Born 1-19-1943 in Port Arthur, Texas, U.S. She was the singer
for Big Brother and The Holding Company, (They recorded,"Piece of My
Heart"), The Kozmic Blues Band (They did,"Try Just a Little Bit
Harder") and The Full Tilt Boogie Band (They did,"Me and Bobby McGee")
- "Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Inductee".
Duane Allman (Howard Duane Allman) - Died 10-29-1971 - Motorcycle
accident ( Southern Rock ) Born 11-20-1946 in Nashville, Tennessee,
U.S. (He did,"Midnight Rider") Was a member of The Kings, The Allman
Joys, Hourglass and The Allman Brothers Band - "Rock & Roll Hall of
Fame Inductee" .
Les Harvey (Leslie Harvey) - Died 5-3-1972 - Electrocuted on stage by
touching a live microphone with wet feet ( Rock ) Born 1945 - Was a
member of Stone The Crows & The Sensational Alex Harvey Band .
Gram Parsons ( Cecil Ingram Connor ) - Died 9-19-1973 in Joshua Tree,
CA, U.S. - Heart failure from tequila & morphine overdose ( Rock )
Born 11-5-1946 in Winter Haven, Florida, U.S. - Was a member of The
Shilos, The Legends, The International Submarine Band, The Byrds and
The Flying Burrito Brothers - "Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Inductee"
Phil Ochs - Died 4-9-1976 - Hung himself, he suffered from chronic
depression ( Folk - Rock ) Born 12-19-1940 in El Paso, Texas, U.S.
(Sang,"Draft Dodger Rag" and "There But For Fortune").
Mark Bolan ( Mark Feld ) (aka Toby Tyler) - Died 9-16-1977 - Car crash
into a tree ( Rock - Folk ) Born 9-30-47 in Hackney, London, England -
Was a member of John's Children (They did,"Desdemona") and the leader
of Tyrannosaurus Rex later renamed T Rex (They did,"Bang A Gong" and
Rabbit Fighter").
Terry Kath - Died 1-23-78 - Accidental self inflicted gun shot (Rock)
Born 1-31-1946 in Chicago, Illinois, U.S. - Was a guitarist for
Chicago (They did,"If You Leave Me Now").
Keith Moon (aka Moon The Loon) - Died 9-7-1978 - Accidental overdose
on Hemenephirin (He died in the same flat that Mama Cass died in) (
Rock ) Born 8-23-1947 in Wembley, London, England - Drummer for The
Escorts, The Beachcombers and The Who (They did,"I Can't Explain" and
"My Generation") Worked with Eric Clapton, Klaus Voormann, Joe Walsh,
Harry Nilsson, Ringo Starr, Aynsley Dunbar, Yoko Ono and Jeff Beck -
"Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Inductee" .
Charles Miller - Died 1979 - Murdered during a robbery ( Rock ) Born
1-2-1939 - Played flute,sax and percussions for War (They did, "Low
Rider" and "Cisco Kid").
Donny Hathaway - Died 1-13-1979 - Jumped or fell from a 15th floor
hotel window ( Soul ) Born 10-1-1945 in Chicago, Illinois, U.S. (He
recorded,"Where Is The Love" with Roberta Flack and "The Ghetto").
Sid Vicious ( John Simon Ritchie ) - Died 2-2-1979 - Heroin overdose (
Punk ) Born 5-10-1957 in London, England - Was a member of The Sex
Pistols.
Lowell George (Lowell George Jr.) - Died 6-29-1979 - Heroin-induced
heart attack ( Rock ) Born 4-12-1945 in Hollywood, California, U.S. -
Was a guitarist and vocalist for Little Feat (They did,"Dixie
Chicken" and "Willing").
Ray Smith (Raymond Eugene Smith)- Died 11-29-1979 - Shot himself (
Rockabilly ) Born 10-30-1938 in Melber, Kentucky, U.S. - Was the
leader of Ray Smith And The Rock N' Roll Boys (They did, "Rocking
Little Angel") Rockabilly Hall Of Fame Inductee .
Chuck Wagon - Died 1981 - Shot himself ( Punk Rock ) Was a keyboardist
for The Dickies (They did,"You Drive Me Ape (You Big Gorilla)" and
"Hideous").
Dennis Wilson - Died 12-28-1983 - Drowned ( Surf Rock ) Born 12-4-1944
in Inglewood, California, U.S. - Was a singer and drummer for The
Beach Boys (They did,"I Get Around" and "Good Vibrations") - "Rock &
Roll Hall of Fame Inductee"
Jaco Pastorius ( John Francis Pastorius III ) - Died 9-21-1987 -
Beaten to death by a nightclub bouncer while trying to enter a club in
a disheveled condition (Pop - Rock - Jazz) Born 12-1-1951 in
Norristown, Pennsylvania, U.S. - Bass player and singer for Weather
Report and Word Of Mouth, also played forBlood, Sweat And Tears and
Joni Mitchell.
Wayne "Get educated, as soon as possible" Johnson
Joni Rathbun
On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, Wayne Johnson wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:51:26 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>
> >Not necessarily. Rappers and their hangers-on have a much lower life
> >expectancy. They very well may never make it past 40.
>
> Just rappers? How can you be this ignorant, and still use that fake
> screen name?
>
> From http://users.efortress.com/doc-rock/deadrock.html
>
> [just typed "dead musicians" for a Google search] [particularly horrid
> are the deaths of Jimmie Lunceford, Jimi Hendrix, Les Harvey, and Jaco
> Pastorius...who I didn't know was dead...]
>
Gosh, all that and Elvis was dead by age 42.
ANd Shakespeare seems to have had a run in with the law....
Roger Brown
>Wrong on all counts. A "lively discussion" means that there is
>dissent from whatever POV is presented. In this case, since
>presumably the teacher is running the class, the teacher no doubt
>presented or expressed problems with young men referring to their
>women as "bitches" and "hos".
>
>Thus I'm quite comfortable that the dissent came from many of the
>"students", and thus were defending their curious choice of language.
This is why you are a waste of time. You throw out a premise you don't
think about, or you're just too stupid to know any better, get
challenged on that premise, and then get completely illogical and
insistent rather than admit error.
Your above stated theory is absolutely idiotic, and based on nothing.
Not one fact. You've made it all up.
(I await your "Wrong on all counts" and "Nonsense" non-rebuttal
response, or something equally nonsensical).
Roger Brown
>>>I see. Now, did you figure this out on yer own, or did you get one of
>>>the many blacks you claim to know to give you some clues?
>>
>>I read what you posted.
>
>And? You must be listening to a hell of a lot of rap to be able to
>look at some gobbledegook and figure what the hell the rapper was
>trying to say (if he was trying to say anything coherent at all).
I don't listen to any rap at all.
Unknown
wrote:
>On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 16:19:11 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>
>>OK, but no one in their right mind has compared Tupac to the Beatles
>
>"...I am the egg man....I am the walrus....goo goo ka choo..."
>
>Explain that.
Like I said, no one in their right mind has compared Tupac to the
Beatles. You never heard them refer to their women as bitches and
hoes, nor bad-mouth the mamas of their rivals, did ya?
>>nor Elvis.
>
>"...a hukka hukka burnin love...."
>
>Explain that.
You never heard him refer to his women as bitches and hoes, nor
bad-mouth the mamas of his rivals, did ya?
Wayne Johnson
>On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 01:43:32 GMT, cia...@pingme.com (Wayne Johnson)
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 16:19:11 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>>
>>>OK, but no one in their right mind has compared Tupac to the Beatles
>>
>>"...I am the egg man....I am the walrus....goo goo ka choo..."
>>
>>Explain that.
>
>Like I said, no one in their right mind has compared Tupac to the
>Beatles. You never heard them refer to their women as bitches and
>hoes, nor bad-mouth the mamas of their rivals, did ya?
Well, they told Loretta to get back, in that tight sweater.
Happiness, in their opinion, was a warm gun. That's about it. I
never heard them discuss any rivals. Are you ready to continue this
comparison of Tupac and the Beatles?
>>>nor Elvis.
>>
>>"...a hukka hukka burnin love...."
>>
>>Explain that.
>
>You never heard him refer to his women as bitches and hoes, nor
>bad-mouth the mamas of his rivals, did ya?
Not in public.
Wayne "I guess he overdosed before his career got to that phase"
Joni Rathbun
On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, Wayne Johnson wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 02:59:47 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 01:43:32 GMT, cia...@pingme.com (Wayne Johnson)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 16:19:11 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
> >>
> >>>OK, but no one in their right mind has compared Tupac to the Beatles
> >>
> >>"...I am the egg man....I am the walrus....goo goo ka choo..."
> >>
> >>Explain that.
> >
> >Like I said, no one in their right mind has compared Tupac to the
> >Beatles. You never heard them refer to their women as bitches and
> >hoes, nor bad-mouth the mamas of their rivals, did ya?
>
> Well, they told Loretta to get back, in that tight sweater.
> Happiness, in their opinion, was a warm gun. That's about it. I
> never heard them discuss any rivals. Are you ready to continue this
> comparison of Tupac and the Beatles?
But the butchering babies album cover stirred up quite a fuss and
when John said, "We're more popular than Jesus now" things really
hit the fan.
>
> >>>nor Elvis.
> >>
> >>"...a hukka hukka burnin love...."
> >>
> >>Explain that.
> >
> >You never heard him refer to his women as bitches and hoes, nor
> >bad-mouth the mamas of his rivals, did ya?
>
> Not in public.
IN public, the police waited on stage for him to swivel his hips
just so so they could make an arrest....
Unknown
wrote:
>On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 18:43:03 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>
>>Wrong on all counts. A "lively discussion" means that there is
>>dissent from whatever POV is presented. In this case, since
>>presumably the teacher is running the class, the teacher no doubt
>>presented or expressed problems with young men referring to their
>>women as "bitches" and "hos".
>>
>>Thus I'm quite comfortable that the dissent came from many of the
>>"students", and thus were defending their curious choice of language.
>
>This is why you are a waste of time. You throw out a premise you don't
>think about, or you're just too stupid to know any better, get
>challenged on that premise, and then get completely illogical and
>insistent rather than admit error.
If you'd bother thinking this through, you'd realize that the above is
the most likely scenario.
>Your above stated theory is absolutely idiotic, and based on nothing.
>Not one fact. You've made it all up.
Wrong, as usual. It's based on common sense, and knowledge of what
the term "lively discussion" usually connotes.
>(I await your "Wrong on all counts" and "Nonsense" non-rebuttal
>response, or something equally nonsensical).
Well, if you were more accurate, you wouldn't be waiting for it as
often.
Unknown
<jrat...@orednet.org> wrote:
>
>On Sat, 18 Jan 2003, the Voice of Nonsense said:
>
>
>> >There was nothing in the snippet you provided that required a knowledge
>> >of Ebonics (you don't even know what that is) or Hip hop (you don't
>> >know what that is either obviously) to interpret. Not a thing.
>>
>> Wrong. It was all gibberish.
>
>Point out the ebonics or the hip hop words.
Pick just about any word in those lines.
Unknown
wrote:
>On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:51:26 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>
>>Not necessarily. Rappers and their hangers-on have a much lower life
>>expectancy. They very well may never make it past 40.
>
>Just rappers? How can you be this ignorant, and still use that fake
>screen name?
I didn't say "just" rappers, now did I? Geez, you REALLY do need
reading glasses. Or maybe an eye transplant.
[lengthy but irrelevant trivia deleted to conserve bandwidth]
Unknown
wrote:
>On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 18:47:17 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
Then fess up -- you got one of those "many" blacks you claim to know
to sit down with you and walk you thru it.
Roger Brown
It was quite easy to comprehend.
The truth is that the only gibberish around here comes from your own
writings.
>
Roger Brown
>If you'd bother thinking this through, you'd realize that the above is
>the most likely scenario.
Your problem is that I did think it through, and it is not likely in
the least. You forget: I teach. You, again, don't know what you are
talking about in a whole new subject area, education. I'll have to add
that to the large and growing stack of subject matter that you have no
versing in. You really should get a college education, if you can get
accepted somewhere.
>>Your above stated theory is absolutely idiotic, and based on nothing.
>>Not one fact. You've made it all up.
>
>Wrong, as usual. It's based on common sense, and knowledge of what
>the term "lively discussion" usually connotes.
Your connotation of "lively discussion" is uniquely your own, and you
have little to no common sense, as anyone who follows one of your
threads can see. You are illogical in the extreme.
Joni Rathbun
On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, it was written:
Did that.
All it requires is a simple command of English to understand
what was written. There was nothing cryptic about it. Absolutely
nothing. It's difficult to understand why you claim there is.
Unknown
wrote:
>On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:33:47 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>
>>If you'd bother thinking this through, you'd realize that the above is
>>the most likely scenario.
>
>Your problem is that I did think it through, and it is not likely in
>the least.
The fallacy with the above argument is that is assumes that what you
calling "thinking" is on the money.
>You forget: I teach.
Irrelevant. A discussion is a discussion, regardless of where it is
held and who is doing the discussing. If everyone has the same POV,
then it won't be too "lively", if everyone is saying "Yeah, I agree"
with the next guy.
>You, again, don't know what you are
>talking about in a whole new subject area, education. I'll have to add
>that to the large and growing stack of subject matter that you have no
>versing in. You really should get a college education, if you can get
>accepted somewhere.
Yer drunk.
>>>Your above stated theory is absolutely idiotic, and based on nothing.
>>>Not one fact. You've made it all up.
>>
>>Wrong, as usual. It's based on common sense, and knowledge of what
>>the term "lively discussion" usually connotes.
>
>Your connotation of "lively discussion" is uniquely your own, and you
>have little to no common sense, as anyone who follows one of your
>threads can see. You are illogical in the extreme.
Another paragraph, wrong from start to finish.
Unknown
wrote:
>On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:37:58 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 05:53:39 GMT, bro...@erols.com (Roger Brown)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 18:47:17 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>I see. Now, did you figure this out on yer own, or did you get one of
>>>>>>the many blacks you claim to know to give you some clues?
>>>>>
>>>>>I read what you posted.
>>>>
>>>>And? You must be listening to a hell of a lot of rap to be able to
>>>>look at some gobbledegook and figure what the hell the rapper was
>>>>trying to say (if he was trying to say anything coherent at all).
>>>
>>>I don't listen to any rap at all.
>>
>>Then fess up -- you got one of those "many" blacks you claim to know
>>to sit down with you and walk you thru it.
>
>It was quite easy to comprehend.
Only if you speak hiphop or Ebonics.
>The truth is that the only gibberish around here comes from your own
>writings.
Nope.
Joni Rathbun
On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, it was written:
> On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:41:21 GMT, bro...@erols.com (Roger Brown)
Repeating that over and over will not make it true.
You can't even provide an example.
Wayne Johnson
>On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 03:53:44 GMT, cia...@pingme.com (Wayne Johnson)
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:51:26 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>>
>>>Not necessarily. Rappers and their hangers-on have a much lower life
>>>expectancy. They very well may never make it past 40.
>>
>>Just rappers? How can you be this ignorant, and still use that fake
>>screen name?
>
>I didn't say "just" rappers, now did I?
You singled them out.
>Geez, you REALLY do need
>reading glasses. Or maybe an eye transplant.
You didn't specify anyone but rappers.
>[lengthy but irrelevant trivia deleted to conserve bandwidth]
The dead on that list were all around or under 40 years of age. None
were rappers. The relevance to your anonymous comments are obvious.
Wayne "Too bad you can't stand up under your own name" Johnson
Roger Brown
<jrat...@orednet.org> wrote:
>Repeating that over and over will not make it true.
Voice thinks that it will. Repeat a lie often enough, and it becomes
true, magically.
Unknown
wrote:
>On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:36:13 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 03:53:44 GMT, cia...@pingme.com (Wayne Johnson)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:51:26 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Not necessarily. Rappers and their hangers-on have a much lower life
>>>>expectancy. They very well may never make it past 40.
>>>
>>>Just rappers? How can you be this ignorant, and still use that fake
>>>screen name?
>>
>>I didn't say "just" rappers, now did I?
>
>You singled them out.
No. I didn't say "just". Or "only".
>>Geez, you REALLY do need
>>reading glasses. Or maybe an eye transplant.
>
>You didn't specify anyone but rappers.
The article mentioned rap in the classroom. I responded to it. What
part of that are you having trouble grasping?
>>[lengthy but irrelevant trivia deleted to conserve bandwidth]
>
>The dead on that list were all around or under 40 years of age. None
>were rappers. The relevance to your anonymous comments are obvious.
No. I was talking about using rap "songs" as part of the high school
curriculum at Crenshaw High.
>Wayne "Too bad you can't stand up under your own name" Johnson
So what? I think yer real name is Fred Sanford. Yer sure crotchety
enough, and probably about the same age.
Unknown
wrote:
>On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 15:16:49 -0800, Joni Rathbun
Why do you persist in telling lies? I can't help it if others can't
read, or think they see things that aren't there.
Roger Brown
>Why do you persist in telling lies? I can't help it if others can't
>read, or think they see things that aren't there.
Sure you can, but you won't. It's funny how no one else supports your
interpretation of your own statements but you.
Roger Brown
>No. I was talking about using rap "songs" as part of the high school
>curriculum at Crenshaw High.
I doubt that it is part of the curriculum at Crenshaw High. SImply a
device a teacher uses in teaching a lesson.
Unknown
wrote:
>On Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:01:16 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
From the column: "At Crenshaw High School, the major conflict being
studied is "Man vs. Ho.... English teacher Patrick Camangian got his
students talking about the "lyrics" by the late Shakur from an
uplifting opus titled 'Shorty Wanna Be a Thug'. "
Sounds like a bit more than a "device" to me. Of course, I'm not
familiar with 'Shorty Wanna Be a Thug'. No doubt, you are though,
and perhaps you could fill us in on how this relates to "Man vs Ho"
and who wins in that conflict.
Roger Brown
>From the column: "At Crenshaw High School, the major conflict being
>studied is "Man vs. Ho.... English teacher Patrick Camangian got his
>students talking about the "lyrics" by the late Shakur from an
>uplifting opus titled 'Shorty Wanna Be a Thug'. "
This is Malkin's interpretation of what the teacher was teaching, not
the name of the course.
Unknown
wrote:
>On Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:02:52 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
Because they are self-evident, nothing more to say.
Roger Brown
>On Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:09:49 GMT, bro...@erols.com (Roger Brown)
>wrote:
>>Sure you can, but you won't. It's funny how no one else supports your
>>interpretation of your own statements but you.
>
>Because they are self-evident, nothing more to say.
Your capacity for self-delusion is infinite.
Unknown
wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:49:35 -0500, VoiceOfReason <> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:09:49 GMT, bro...@erols.com (Roger Brown)
>>wrote:
>
>>>Sure you can, but you won't. It's funny how no one else supports your
>>>interpretation of your own statements but you.
>>
>>Because they are self-evident, nothing more to say.
>
>Your capacity for self-delusion is infinite.
Totally wrong. I'm standing here, on solid ground. Surrounded by
reality on all sides.
Roger Brown
>On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 04:06:31 GMT, bro...@erols.com (Roger Brown)
>wrote:
>>Your capacity for self-delusion is infinite.
>
>Totally wrong. I'm standing here, on solid ground. Surrounded by
>reality on all sides.
Like I said, your capacity for self -delusion ....
Gray Shockley
(in message <99ju2vchr9lht9th9...@4ax.com>):
> Totally wrong. I'm standing here, on solid ground. Surrounded by
> reality on all sides.
--------------------------------------------------------
Jail cell or room in a mental institution?
Or just your ninth grade room for the third time, young child?
Gray Shockley
--------------------------
"Swinehood hath no remedy." - Sidney Lanier