Athabasca vs Royal Roads
Peter
Royal Roads program has three 3-week residencies. The
Athabasca program is strictly DL.
nort...@my-deja.com
as a private school. My only memory of them was prior to that when
they were an elite military college and had a very good reputation
(alas they are no more). My guess is that in a couple of senses
Athabasca may be better:
i) they are completely DL
ii) they have probably been granting MBA's longer.
Royal Roads has a more impressive sounding name though.
North
In article <39B063AD...@selin.com>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Peter
nort...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I really have no idea. Apparently, Royal Roads has been reincarnated
> as a private school. My only memory of them was prior to that when
> they were an elite military college and had a very good reputation
> (alas they are no more). My guess is that in a couple of senses
> Athabasca may be better:
> i) they are completely DL
> ii) they have probably been granting MBA's longer.
>
> Royal Roads has a more impressive sounding name though.
>
> North
Yeah it is more impressive sounding. There's also about an $8000 fee
differential in favor of RR.
I just don't get how AU can charge $30k for its MBA when traditional
Canadian universties charge under $15K.
Nearby SFU which is one of the top universities in the country chrages
only about $12K!
AU is most definitely the new kid on the block.
I am concerned about being able to arrange time off for the three 3-week
residencies required by RR though.
Peter
heather
AU is respected as probably the leading distance education provider in
Canada and has been on the go since 1970. The Alberta government has
invested money in its development of IT Programs.
Courses are, however, very expensive, and are almost double the cost of
comparable traditional university programs.. masters level are around
$800 c.f. $400-500, traditionally. I don't know what the rationale is
behind this, but AU do have a large throughput of students (mainly
Canadian) and on viewing course outlines the programs seem rigorous.
Heather
> I just don't get how AU can charge $30k for its MBA when traditional
> Canadian universties charge under $15K.
> Nearby SFU which is one of the top universities in the country chrages
> only about $12K!
>
> AU is most definitely the new kid on the block.
>
>
PHelineD
>comparable traditional university programs.. masters level are around
>$800 c.f. $400-500, traditionally.
Remember a few things here:
1) that's in Canadian dollars
2) that's usually for a 3 credit hour courses
3) Its cheaper for Canadians.
PJV
heather
heather
> Remember a few things here:
>
> 1) that's in Canadian dollars
> 2) that's usually for a 3 credit hour courses
> 3) Its cheaper for Canadians.
>
> PJV
>
MichaelMail
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I just don't get how AU can charge $30k for its MBA when traditional
Canadian universties charge under $15K.
Nearby SFU which is one of the top universities in the country chrages
only about $12K!
Good day, everyone. I'd like to add the following about Canadian tuition at
SFU, Athabasca, Royal Roads and Richard Ivey. Get ready for a long-winded
response. I live in Vancouver Canada, only a few miles from SFU's MBA
campus.
I'm in my penultimate course of the Athabasca MBA. I imposed a fast-track on
myself, as I only started Sept 98, and will be finished all residentials
(total of 13 days over three short courses/seminars - just a blip out of
one's time) and the dissertation by November 30th. Most people take three
years. I also have a full-time job, but I don't ski, like everyone else in
British Columbia, thus freeing up a lot of time for actually reading and
studying!
Truth in advertising disclosure:
I can speak to differences in these programs, as I applied to the SFU EMBA
two years ago, but didn't make the cut. They require a higher quantitative
(yes.. this was stated on the rejection letter), though my analytical and
verbal on GMAT were considerably above average.
The comments re: tuition differentials need some fleshing out.
Tuition costs are often one of those apples and oranges comparisons. I think
that in most cases, full-time MBA programs can be subsidized, such as
undergraduate education. But executive MBAs are considered either
profit-centres (the Canadian spelling of center, not a typo), or strategic
business units. Whatever we call them, the funding dynamics are often
different. I did a lot of looking around and info-session attending, and
each EMBA had to pay its way, plus bring money into the school to further
develop the program.
Executive MBAs (which distance learning MBAs are) also presuppose that the
student is already working (and this is a mandatory requirement in many
programs, such as Athabasca's and SFU's). Ergo, one also pays executive
rates, perhaps. My nephew's MBA from Wilfred Laurier University in Ontario,
Canada, was, as you say, under $15,000. But he didn't hold a job while doing
it, and the price structure was more akin to an undergraduate on-campus
program.
What you didn't mention is that the Richard Ivey on-campus program comes to
about $52,000 for the two-year program. So, there's lot of variety regarding
tutition fees in Canada.
SFU (Simon Fraser University, Burnaby (almost Vancouver) British Columbia:
They have a full-time program, but that doesn't concern us here. And their
EMBA is not distance program, so that shouldn't concern us in this
newsgroup, either, but I'll still address it. I'm doing this from memory,
but my memory is good - the facts (if not the acronyms!) will be as close to
reliable as we can get without a brochure to look at:
SFU EMBA (remember, not distance learning):
- Two streams... small enrollment, 30 per stream, I believe, in 1998.
Perhaps more since then.
- the NeMBA, I think it was called, meets Wed, Thurs nights, weekly, for
two years, minus some short breaks and a summer vacation. Plus you were
expected to attend regular co-hort dinners. The team building and group work
was emphasised at the info session.
- the WeMBA, I think, a weekend program, meets every two weeks, for
intense full days. The co-hort stays together all day Friday and Saturday,
also requiring investment in lunches and dinners, and fees for the hotel for
the Friday night.
The announced fees for 1998-99 (and this I recall vividly) were, as you
state, $12,000, but $12,000 per year of a two year program. Even with my
poor quantitative skills, that comes to $24,000 per EMBA, before the extras:
- PLUS textbooks
- PLUS you have to attend the regular dinners and/or residence, depending
on the stream.
- and this doesn't include misc such as admission, registration, fees
that all EMBAs seem to have to accrue revenues.
Now, Athabasca fees, for those of us starting in 1998, were $19,550.00, tota
l, for all three phases, and that included the admission and registration
fees! The Athabasca on-line student handbook now lists them as $25,000 for
May '99 co-hort.And for students who defer classes, there is a small fee per
deferral (you can take six years to complete the MBA), but the tuition fees
are frozen for you. That is good value, right there. At a weekend school,
which you can attend regardless of where you are in the program, the
students pay different fees according to what their original co-hort was.
And there is no tuition freeze in Alberta, the province where Athabasca
University is located.
AUMBA includes:
- all textbooks - and I now have about two linear feet of those (though
you do print out most of your own course notes... that's about $4.00 Cdn per
500 sheets of paper! per course before you finish each eight weeks.)
- the required Office 2000 software is sent to you
- the LotusNotes interface and licence is included
- the technical staff is there each day, including Sunday, except
statutory holidays such as Xmas, Thanksgiving...
- the tuition total I quoted includes the attendance at two weekend
schools, and one weeklong school, and the dissertation fee, though you pay
as you go in chunks:
- phase one (six classes), phase two (four classes), then the two
electives, and the residentials.
- the tuition fee does not cover your accommodation fees at the weekend
school, and there may be a surcharge for the residential weeklong school, as
they're now being held in farflung locations. But your registration fees and
meals are included in the original tuition breakdown.
I did my weeklong in England, this past July - the theme being business in
the UK and European Union. But, if you bundle your vacation around the
course, as I did, you prorate the expenses. Last April, a large group went
to Mexico for a weeklong... so, I see this as an advantage over the SFU
program. And, there are also domestic weeklongs located across the country,
so that portion of the program need not be too financially onerous. I could
have done my mandatory weeklong in Vancouver in August - would have saved
money, but how 'different' could that experience be compared to going to the
UK?
Another issue that the respondent did not address is that the Government of
British Columbia has frozen tuition fees for the past four years. While
students have been pleased, this has created a burden for the university
administrations. I recall in 1998, at the info session, that SFU had
proposed a tuition increase, but was awaiting the govt funding decision. So,
that is why the fee has remained at about $24,000 to $26,000 per two year
program at SFU. I'm sure that Simon Fraser could use an increase... how are
they delivering the same level of program over the four years - all of their
expenses have gone up, and the faculty pay has also increased. And I manage
a college store, so I know that the textbooks have gone up!
A few comments about Royal Roads. Royal Roads would be in the same tuition
freeze position as SFU. But I posit, since several of their MBAs are newly
minted programs, that they have had the chance to price them in a realistic
fashion over the last two years. (RR is very, very new... I think Sept 99 or
perhaps Sept 98 was the first MBA intake.) RR is offering specialist
degrees, such as HR, Entrepreneurship, I think... that sort of thing. So, if
I was an HR specialist and was not interested in moving beyond that field, I
would seriously look at RR. But, for a generalist program, one should take a
serious look at Athabasca's. My enthusiasm has only increased over the past
two years... even when the going was tough during the first two courses,
before I found my 'e-learning' legs, so to speak.
The residential requirements at RR are also rather onerous if you don't live
close by. Three week chunks can be hard to fit in. But, I must say, their
web-site and the marketing brochures that have appeared in the Vancouver
papers have been first class! If the course is as slick as the marketing,
then the program does indeed look promising.
I believe the quality of 'back-office' support at Athabasca has been
excellent, and the quality of the facilitators (or coaches, as AU calls
them) has been mostly of calibre A, with only one of my coaches being at
what I would call a 'C' level facilitator (and she is no longer there).
Athabasca is consistently refining their programs - the MBA has been
offered, I think, since 1994, but the university has been open since 1972.
The 'confidential' AACSB survey has ranked Athabasca very highly for the
past two years. It seems that there is a prohibition on using the surveys as
a marketing tool, but the gist of the most recent is:
-------------------------------
Each year we participate in a survey of that year's graduates of 88 part
time MBA programs in North America. The study is conducted by the AACSB, the
premier US business school accrediting body and includes a wide range of
business schools. This year we rank number 2 in overall student
satisfaction. The survey is based on 72 questions and we rank in the top 3
on 30 questions and in the top 10 on 59. The factors that we are number 1on
in North America include:
Opportunities to pursue work related projects in your courses
The value you derived from team experiences
Friendliness and courtesy of the MBA program staff
The extent that grades received accurately reflected your level of
performance
Training to improve computer skills
Access to the schools computer network
-----------------------------------
While we all know surveys and data can be interpreted in myriad ways, I
contend that Athabasca University MBA is an excellent program, and should be
considered by any of you out there in distance-learning land. I think we
have students from 25 countries, including Saudi Arabia! It's reasonably
priced (Richard Ivey's program, the leader in Canada, is now over $60,000
for the video EMBA two years), accessible from anywhere, interesting,
rigorous, and, as I get closer to the end, can also be considered
'enjoyable'. And, I can say that SFU did me a big favour when I didn't make
the cut two years ago. I've been extremely happy with my AUMBA program.
While SFU was, I think the first EMBA in Canada, in late sixties, and
reputedly a fine program, the AUMBA is now Canada's largest executive MBA. I
think we're at over 1,000 students, at various levels, since it started.
Check it out for yourself, at www.athabascau.ca . (And, no, I don't work for
them!)
Add up the published costs, and the hidden costs, and the AUMBA may still be
the best value.
With thanks
Michael in Vancouver
Peter
heather wrote:
> Spot on, on all counts, PJV.
>
> heather
>
> > Remember a few things here:
> >
> > 1) that's in Canadian dollars
> > 2) that's usually for a 3 credit hour courses
> > 3) Its cheaper for Canadians.
> >
> > PJV
> >
What matters is that the MBA at AU costs about $29K
CDN for Canadians living in Canada and $32K CDN for
international students.
If you convert these to US $ it's $18,850 and $21,600
respectively.
This is still extremely high.
The MBA at the University of WA is $12K US.
Sure it's a bit cheaper if you get paid in US $.
But for someone living in Canada and earning Canadian
dollars it's outrageous.
The MBA at one of Canada's best rated universities,
Simon Fraser, costs $12K CDN!
The Royal Roads U MBA is about $21K CDN for Canadians
and about $30K CDN for International students.
This translates into $14,175 US and $20,250 US.
So RRU is also expensive but AU is right out of the
ball-park.
Peter
MichaelMail
Peter <peter12**@selin.com> wrote in message
news:39B1A171...@selin.com...
>
> The MBA at the University of WA is $12K US.
>
>
> The MBA at one of Canada's best rated universities,
> Simon Fraser, costs $12K CDN!
>
The mis-information seems to be spreading.
For the group's enlightenment, the following clip is from U of Washington's
web-site re: the EMBA:
------------
The fee for the Northwest and Beyond Option for the academic year 2000-2001
is $21,469. This includes tuition, textbooks and course materials, lodging
and meals at the final residence session, parking and lunch on class days,
selected dinners, food and refreshments at hosted social functions, and
traditional courtesies.
The Executive MBA Program is self-sustaining and receives no public funds.
The fee for the EMBA Program may increase each year. For both scheduling
options a $1,500 non-refundable deposit is due upon acceptance of an offer
of admission.
________________
And, I don't see a distance-learning element. So, it seems you do get some
meals, and some residential elements as part of this. In Cdn dollars, this
$21000 is about $30,000. Now, the above says 'academic year' 2000-2001. So,
does this mean another $21,000 for 2001-2002, or is the program only one
year???
Regardless, that is a far cry from the touted '$12k'. And I've already
addressed the mis-information about the Simon Fraser $12,000 Cdn fee, which
is actually $24,000.
With thanks
Michael
Peter
MichaelMail wrote:
> Now, Athabasca fees, for those of us starting in
> 1998, were $19,550.00, tota
> l, for all three phases, and that included the
> admission and registration
> fees! The Athabasca on-line student handbook now
> lists them as $25,000 for
> May '99 co-hort..
AU has upped the fees bigtime:
.
TOTAL $27,500 (Domestic) $32,969 (International)
From http://www.athabascau.ca/mba/
>
I didn't know that EMBAs were double the price. I was
looking at SFU's new MOT MBA which can be taken P/T
and costs a total of $12K CDN.
Thanks for the lenghty response. I am printing it out
and saving it.
One thing I don't understand is why I as a Canadian
living just across the border need to pay $5,469 more
than if I was 150 miles further north.
The extra postage can't be that much over the two to
three years.
Peter
Casey
>
>
>MichaelMail wrote:
>
>> Now, Athabasca fees, for those of us starting in
>> 1998, were $19,550.00, tota
>> l, for all three phases, and that included the
>> admission and registration
>> fees! The Athabasca on-line student handbook now
>> lists them as $25,000 for
>> May '99 co-hort..
>
>AU has upped the fees bigtime:
>
>.
>TOTAL $27,500 (Domestic) $32,969 (International)
>
>From http://www.athabascau.ca/mba/
So get yourself a post office box across the border and visit it once every
2 weeks or so....or get the P.O. Box to forward to you....that way you can
have your cake....er MBA program, and save a bundle too!
Trying to keep on topic while sharing my experience from a slightly
different angle...I am in Athabasca University's MDE program. I know for a
fact that I could not have afforded to get my Master's degree had it not
been for the MDE at Athabasca. I am a little biased beause, as an Alberta
resident taking full time studies in Alberta I qualified for complete
student loans which I wouldn't have had I taken any Master's program
elsewhere in a D.E. environment. I am very satisfied with the program, the
teachers and the support (if any of my profs are reading this...a few extra
marks for the ad wouldn't hurt).
Casey
Peter
MichaelMail wrote:
> Peter <peter12**@selin.com> wrote in message
> news:39B1A171...@selin.com...
>
> >
> > The MBA at the University of WA is $12K US.
> >
> >
> > The MBA at one of Canada's best rated universities,
> > Simon Fraser, costs $12K CDN!
> >
>
> The mis-information seems to be spreading.
>
> For the group's enlightenment, the following clip is from U of Washington's
> web-site re: the EMBA:
> ------------
> The fee for the Northwest and Beyond Option for the academic year 2000-2001
> is $21,469. This includes tuition, textbooks and course materials, lodging
> and meals at the final residence session, parking and lunch on class days,
> selected dinners, food and refreshments at hosted social functions, and
> traditional courtesies.
Again, I was comparing the AU MBA with the daytime program at U Dub.
It was $12K US for WA state residents (me) when I last checked.
You are claiming that DL MBAs are considered Executive MBAs and must therefore
be compared in price to them and not to fulltime MBA programs. This is news to
me.
I stand corrected.
Peter
Peter
MichaelMail wrote:
Regardless, that is a far cry from the touted '$12k'. And I've already
> addressed the mis-information about the Simon Fraser $12,000 Cdn fee, which
> is actually $24,000.
>
>
The SFU MOT MBA was indeed $12K CDN in its first year. They just upped the price
to $15K CDN.
I was not looking at the EMBA.
So, we're even. I was wrong about the SFU MOT MBA. You were wrong about the AU
MBA fees.
Peter
Peter
> MichaelMail wrote:
>
>> Truth in advertising disclosure:
>> I can speak to differences in these programs, as I
>> applied to the SFU EMBA
>> two years ago, but didn't make the cut. They require
>> a higher quantitative
>> (yes.. this was stated on the rejection letter),
>> though my analytical and
>> verbal on GMAT were considerably above average.
>
Let me ask you a q about the quantitave aspects of the AU
MBA. When I did my BBA at SFU I just barely made it
through the two stats courses that are part of the core
curriculum. So I am always concerned about this aspect
of a program. Some MBA programs are heavily into the
quantitative formula memorization and number-crunching.
Some are not, like Harvard apparently. (Here in the
States MBA programs are divided in two categories: those
for the "quants" and those for the "poets".)
Is there a lot of stats in the AUMBA? Is there a lot of
numbercrunching over all?
Also, how are mid term and final exams taken in the
AUMBA? Is it the honor system where you just promise not
to refer to your text? Or do you take exams somewhere
where there is someone (adjudicator?) to monitor you?
Peter
Ken Lewchuk
programs, with the plethora of MBA opportunities out there I don't see how
they make the cut.
First... the top of the pecking order (per the Economist, to which I agree)
are distance programs, equivalent to full-time programs, from traditional
schools (good-bye Athabasca).
What are some options to RR. Charles Sturt... gaining a presence in
Canada... multiple majors, writing based and reasonably priced, although not
a "prestigious" school. If you are willing to do residency, try Henley
Mgmt. Of course, Edinburgh Business School is probably the largest MBA in
Canada, prestigous and very reasonably priced (15 K CAD).
I am always amazed that with DL... which allows you to take advantage of
some of the best programs on the globe... that people still look only in
their back yard.
"Peter" <peter128**@selin.com> wrote in message
news:39B063AD...@selin.com...
Peter
Ken Lewchuk wrote:
> Why would you limit yourself to these two schools.
I haven't.
I started with Jonnie's list of about a hundred programs and narrowed it down to
a shortlist of two.
> Although both are fine
> programs, with the plethora of MBA opportunities out there I don't see how
> they make the cut.
What is wrong with them?
I would appreciate an explanation.
> First... the top of the pecking order (per the Economist, to which I agree)
> are distance programs, equivalent to full-time programs, from traditional
> schools (good-bye Athabasca).
>
Sorry, I know that I'll get flamed for saying this, but the Economists' opinion
on this particular matter means absolutely nothing to me.
Why?
I am a Canadian living and working in the US. To avoid all the petty B.S. in
this country over the ranking of one's alma mater on the snob scale, I decided
to go with a Canadian DL program. When the snobs hear Canadian U their wires get
crossed: "Canadian University? Does not compute. Does not compute." They can't
rank it.
If you don't have an MBA from Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, or Northwestern then
it doesn't really matter where you have it from. Someone once said that there
are just two categories of MBA programs in the US: Harvard, Stanford, Wharton,
or Northwestern and then all the rest. What difference does it make whether
your MBA is from Maryland, Colorado, or Chico State? None. No one cares if it
ain't top four or five.
I also like AU and RR because I don't have to take the GMAT. I have the study
books and find it ridiculous that someone with my experience and skills has to
be tested on his algebra and trig skills. The experts agree that the GMAT is a
lousy predictor of one's potential success in an MBA program. Unfortunately,
the GMAT people have a vise like stranglehold on admissions to MBA programs.
BTW, AU is Canada's biggest MBA program. How can you dismiss it so easily?
>
> What are some options to RR. Charles Sturt... gaining a presence in
> Canada... multiple majors, writing based and reasonably priced, although not
> a "prestigious" school. If you are willing to do residency, try Henley
> Mgmt. Of course, Edinburgh Business School is probably the largest MBA in
> Canada, prestigous and very reasonably priced (15 K CAD).
Edinburgh? Do you mean Heriott Watt?
H-W is too controversial for me. I don't want to spend the rest of my life
explaining to people that it is indeed a "real" MBA program and not a diploma
mill. The people here may know that it's a bona fide program but many people in
the business world think of it as a cheapo correspondence course--if they have
heard of it at all. Most haven't.
Sorry, but perceptions equal reality in most cases.
Then the question arises as to how and when I got a degree from a Scottish U.
The answer leads one to assume that it's a "correspondence course".
Moreover, H-W's MBA program was badly in need of an update last time I checked,
and I did check. The program appears to have been designed for managers in the
buggy whip industry.
I need something with a few courses on ecommerce and technology management. AU
and RR offer these.
> I am always amazed that with DL... which allows you to take advantage of
> some of the best programs on the globe... that people still look only in
> their back yard.
>
Using my criteria these two are the BEST.
Thank you for your personal opinion.
Peter
Peter
Ken Lewchuk wrote:
> If you are willing to do residency, try Henley
> Mgmt. Of course, Edinburgh Business School is probably the largest MBA in
> Canada, prestigous and very reasonably priced (15 K CAD).
>
> I am always amazed that with DL... which allows you to take advantage of
> some of the best programs on the globe... that people still look only in
> their back yard.
It's precisely because I do like the idea of residencies that I am drawn to RRU
with its three 3-week residencies held about 100 miles from where I live.
AU also holds shorter residencies nearby.
The thought of working in total isolation as per the H-W program is a real
turn-off. Sure you have a chat board where you can post messgaes for others to
read and reply to, but it ain't the same as working in a group.
Peter
Peter
Let me give you another reason why I have two Canadian universities on my
shortlist. In the business world of the USA domestic business schools are
considered--rightly or wrongly--to be the best in the world. Canadian universities
are also generally respected as many Americans are aware of such institutions as
UBC, Uof T, Western Ontario, and a few others as being world class.
On the other hand, outside of the London Business School, most Americans can't name
any UK institutions, except for maybe Oxford and Cambridge which are not considered
business schools. That's if they even have them.
As for Australian schools? Well with all due respect, why should I bother? No one I
know could name even one Aussie university if their life depended on it.
I am a mid-career pragmatist who is determined to invest his MBA budget to get the
biggest bang for his buck.
Petere
Peter
A friend suggested that if I do the AU MBA, I simply tell Americans that it's Canada's
version of the Duke Fuqua School DL MBA.
Works for me.
Peter
Thomas Nixon
Okay, Peter, we believe you know what you want. Sheesh! I'm sure Ken will respond in due
time.
Tom
Ken Lewchuk
"Peter" <peter12**@selin.com> wrote in message
news:39B5B1E3...@selin.com...
>
>
> Ken Lewchuk wrote:
>
> > Why would you limit yourself to these two schools.
>
> I haven't.
>
> I started with Jonnie's list of about a hundred programs and narrowed it
down to
> a shortlist of two.
>
> > Although both are fine
> > programs, with the plethora of MBA opportunities out there I don't see
how
> > they make the cut.
>
> What is wrong with them?
>
As far as acceptability goes, virtual schools are at the bottom of the DL
pecking order. That does not mean that they necessarily offer a
sub-standard education but you may have a greater level of difficulty in
gaining acceptance. With all the MBA options available, why bother. This,
of course, eliminates Athabasca.
RR is a new program (i.e. no track record). The school has yet to hit any
rankings which help with marketability. Again, with all the options
available there is no compelling reason to choose this program.
> I would appreciate an explanation.
>
> > First... the top of the pecking order (per the Economist, to which I
agree)
> > are distance programs, equivalent to full-time programs, from
traditional
> > schools (good-bye Athabasca).
> >
>
> Sorry, I know that I'll get flamed for saying this, but the Economists'
opinion
> on this particular matter means absolutely nothing to me.
The Economist is a very respected organization within the business community
and is a significant point of external validation. If you intend on
actually using a MBA credential, external validation within the business
community should mean something to you,
> Why?
>
> I am a Canadian living and working in the US. To avoid all the petty B.S.
in
> this country over the ranking of one's alma mater on the snob scale, I
decided
> to go with a Canadian DL program. When the snobs hear Canadian U their
wires get
> crossed: "Canadian University? Does not compute. Does not compute." They
can't
> rank it.
I am also a Canadian working in the US. To the contrary, when they hear
"Canadian University" they may rank it... and rank it poorly. That is why
external validation can be important, to ensure you get proper value.
>
> If you don't have an MBA from Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, or Northwestern
then
> it doesn't really matter where you have it from. Someone once said that
there
> are just two categories of MBA programs in the US: Harvard, Stanford,
Wharton,
> or Northwestern and then all the rest. What difference does it make
whether
> your MBA is from Maryland, Colorado, or Chico State? None. No one cares if
it
> ain't top four or five.
That simply is not true. In reality the US tends to work in strata. The
top strata may be the 5 schools you mention. The second strata covers about
the top 20. With the third covering the next 20 and down from there. If
you have a MBA from Georgetown, Rice or UT Austin (second tier) you will
have an advantage over Podunk U.
>
> I also like AU and RR because I don't have to take the GMAT. I have the
study
> books and find it ridiculous that someone with my experience and skills
has to
> be tested on his algebra and trig skills. The experts agree that the GMAT
is a
> lousy predictor of one's potential success in an MBA program.
Unfortunately,
> the GMAT people have a vise like stranglehold on admissions to MBA
programs.
Other schools do not require a GMAT
>
> BTW, AU is Canada's biggest MBA program. How can you dismiss it so easily?
If you can get a degree from a traditional school (non-traditional delivery)
it is (all else equal) a far superior choice with respect to acceptability.
>
> >
> > What are some options to RR. Charles Sturt... gaining a presence in
> > Canada... multiple majors, writing based and reasonably priced, although
not
> > a "prestigious" school. If you are willing to do residency, try Henley
> > Mgmt. Of course, Edinburgh Business School is probably the largest MBA
in
> > Canada, prestigous and very reasonably priced (15 K CAD).
>
> Edinburgh? Do you mean Heriott Watt?
>
> H-W is too controversial for me. I don't want to spend the rest of my life
> explaining to people that it is indeed a "real" MBA program and not a
diploma
> mill. The people here may know that it's a bona fide program but many
people in
> the business world think of it as a cheapo correspondence course--if they
have
> heard of it at all. Most haven't.
>
> Sorry, but perceptions equal reality in most cases.
>
> Then the question arises as to how and when I got a degree from a Scottish
U.
> The answer leads one to assume that it's a "correspondence course".
I entered the job market with Heriot-Watt on the resume and although some
marketing was required, it was definetly a strong asset. To silence the
questions:
about 30 interviews
fortune 1000
fortune 500
brokerage firm
professional services firm.
Competed against CPA's and top US 20 MBA's and secured 2 competitive job
offers.
>
> Moreover, H-W's MBA program was badly in need of an update last time I
checked,
> and I did check. The program appears to have been designed for managers in
the
> buggy whip industry.
My associates from Olin and Harvard, who evaluated the HW program, had a
differing opinion.
Ken Lewchuk
everyone... if you need strong support and / or have difficulty with exams,
HW sure is not for you !!!
"Peter" <peter12**@selin.com> wrote in message
news:39B5B51D...@selin.com...
Ken Lewchuk
either. That is why external validation is so valuable. Neither of these
schools are tops in Maclean's rankings, neither are the three Canadian
schools listed by the Economist. Virtually no foreign school is going to
give you name recognition in the US. Not a big deal if the school is easily
marketable... it would be much easier to market Charles Sturt (Goode
University of the Year a while back) or Heriot Watt (enough said), than
either of these.
"Peter" <peter12**@selin.com> wrote in message
news:39B5B8ED...@selin.com...
Ken Lewchuk
You better hope no one checks up on your claim. No knowledgeable
individual... or an unknowledgable person who did the slightest bit of
homework... would agree with that comment.
Better hope your HR rep doesn't investigate. Such ignorance / lies /
misrepresentations could cost you a good job !!!
"Peter" <peter12**@selin.com> wrote in message
news:39B5BA5E...@selin.com...
Peter
Ken Lewchuk wrote:
> Americans aren't going to be able to name "Royal Roads" or "Athabasca"
> either.
Americans actually can name very few universities outside their country.
They simply don't care to know. Nor do I blame them for their disinterest.
> That is why external validation is so valuable. Neither of these
> schools are tops in Maclean's rankings, neither are the three Canadian
> schools listed by the Economist. Virtually no foreign school is going to
> give you name recognition in the US.
I think you missed the part where I said I was a mid-career professional who
really wants the letters behind his name as well as learn a few new things. I
see education as a life long process. (But I won't pursue a doctorate.)
If I was in my twenties I would do everything to get into a highly ranked US
school because then such a degree would make a big difference in my career.
> Not a big deal if the school is easily
> marketable... it would be much easier to market Charles Sturt (Goode
> University of the Year a while back) or Heriot Watt (enough said), than
> either of these.
>
I take an interest in universities. I am familiar with many.
Frankly, I had never even heard of Sturt until about a week ago.
See my post yesterday on the general perception of Aussie schools in both the
USA and Canada.
Also, how am I going to explain having an Australian MBA?
Either I lie and claim I lived there for two years or announce that it was one
of those--as you put it--inferior DL degrees.
Being a Canadian and having Canadian degrees means the question of when and how
I got them doesn't even come up.
As for H-W, I looked at it very seriously a while ago and after some research I
realized that it would be more of a liability than an asset. It's simply too
controversial. Having read the deja vu archives I realize that it has both its
staunch detractors and defenders. The two sides seem to be at permanent
loggerheads with one another. I take no sides. I simply am not interested in
getting sucked into the highly emotionally charged feud over the H-W DL MBA's
credibility and value.
As with Sturt, the question would always spring up, "Oh! When were you in
Scotland".
Likewise I wish to avoid dealing with this.
Peter
Peter
Ken Lewchuk wrote:
> Now that is the best joke I have heard all day !!!
>
Then the joke is on you. While I wouldn't mention it to an HR person (I haven't
dealt with HR in twenty years and can't see it happening anytime before I
die.), I would use it in passing with people who inquired. Americans love those
easy answers.
"Western Ontario is our Harvard." "Waterloo is our MIT." "Athabasca is our
Fuqua."
See?
8^)
>
> You better hope no one checks up on your claim. No knowledgeable
> individual... or an unknowledgable person who did the slightest bit of
> homework... would agree with that comment.
>
Fuqua's GEMBA is all DL; so is Athabasca.
Try and quantify the differences for me and keep a straight face.
>
> Better hope your HR rep doesn't investigate. Such ignorance / lies /
> misrepresentations could cost you a good job !!!
>
Again, I don't have to deal with those bozoes.
Thank god.
Peter
Peter
Ken Lewchuk wrote:
> As far as acceptability goes, virtual schools are at the bottom of the DL
> pecking order.
I don't see how you have any hope in hell of supporting such sweeping
generalizations?
> That does not mean that they necessarily offer a
> sub-standard education but you may have a greater level of difficulty in
> gaining acceptance. With all the MBA options available, why bother. This,
> of course, eliminates Athabasca.
> RR is a new program (i.e. no track record). The school has yet to hit any
> rankings which help with marketability.
Then again it could actually be one of the better MBA progs in Canada? We don't
really know yet do we?
> Again, with all the options
> available there is no compelling reason to choose this program.
I gave you a shitload of personally compelling reasons yesterday. In the end we
all make our
decision based on subjective criteria. Including you.
>
>
>
>
> > Sorry, I know that I'll get flamed for saying this, but the Economists'
> opinion
> > on this particular matter means absolutely nothing to me.
>
> The Economist is a very respected organization within the business community
> and is a significant point of external validation. If you intend on
> actually using a MBA credential, external validation within the business
> community should mean something to you,
>
> > Why?
> >
> > I am a Canadian living and working in the US. To avoid all the petty B.S.
> in
> > this country over the ranking of one's alma mater on the snob scale, I
> decided
> > to go with a Canadian DL program. When the snobs hear Canadian U their
> wires get
> > crossed: "Canadian University? Does not compute. Does not compute." They
> can't
> > rank it.
>
> I am also a Canadian working in the US. To the contrary, when they hear
> "Canadian University" they may rank it... and rank it poorly. That is why
> external validation can be important, to ensure you get proper value.
>
Here's where we diverge. I want the MBA for two reasons: 1) The letters behind
my name, and 2) to upgrade my box of business tools. The "external validation"
may not be as important to me as it is to you. Although I am avoiding H-W
because there is just too much controversy over it. Never ending controversy, I
might add.
>
> >
> > If you don't have an MBA from Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, or Northwestern
> then
> > it doesn't really matter where you have it from.
>
> That simply is not true. In reality the US tends to work in strata. The
> top strata may be the 5 schools you mention. The second strata covers about
> the top 20. With the third covering the next 20 and down from there. If
> you have a MBA from Georgetown, Rice or UT Austin (second tier) you will
> have an advantage over Podunk U.
Very few people know or care about any school outside say the top ten. Americans
tend to know the top ten and their university. The rest all just blur into one
big cloud.
>
> >
> > I also like AU and RR because I don't have to take the GMAT.
>
> Other schools do not require a GMAT
>
Other than the obvious H-W, which ones don't?
>
> >
> > BTW, AU is Canada's biggest MBA program. How can you dismiss it so easily?
>
> If you can get a degree from a traditional school (non-traditional delivery)
> it is (all else equal) a far superior choice with respect to acceptability.
>
>
At my age I would rather take the twenty or so hours I can apply to my education
and invest it all in actual studying.
If I went to a traditional program I would be spending ten of those hours
commuting, parking, and walking to classes.
Seattle has the worst traffic in the US.
>
> > >
> > > What are some options to RR. Charles Sturt... gaining a presence in
> > > Canada... multiple majors, writing based and reasonably priced, although
> not
> > > a "prestigious" school. If you are willing to do residency, try Henley
> > > Mgmt. Of course, Edinburgh Business School is probably the largest MBA
> in
> > > Canada, prestigous and very reasonably priced (15 K CAD).
> >
> > Edinburgh? Do you mean Heriott Watt?
> >
> > H-W is too controversial for me. I don't want to spend the rest of my life
> > explaining to people that it is indeed a "real" MBA program and not a
> diploma
> > mill. The people here may know that it's a bona fide program but many
> people in
> > the business world think of it as a cheapo correspondence course--if they
> have
> > heard of it at all. Most haven't.
> >
> > Sorry, but perceptions equal reality in most cases.
> >
> > Then the question arises as to how and when I got a degree from a Scottish
> U.
> > The answer leads one to assume that it's a "correspondence course".
>
> I entered the job market with Heriot-Watt on the resume and although some
> marketing was required, it was definetly a strong asset. To silence the
>
Sorry, but this is anecdotal evidence and we all know what that's worth.
>
>
> >
> > Moreover, H-W's MBA program was badly in need of an update last time I
> checked,
> > and I did check. The program appears to have been designed for managers in
> the
> > buggy whip industry.
>
> My associates from Olin and Harvard, who evaluated the HW program, had a
> differing opinion.
>
Oh?
They have added course in entrepreneurship, technology management, and
ecommerce?
Maybe your associates just wanted to spare you the truth?
Other than make sweeping generalizations about AU and RR I haven't seen you
provide any reason why I shouldn't have them on my short list.
Peter
Bruce Tait
>
> > > I also like AU and RR because I don't have to take the GMAT.
> >
> > Other schools do not require a GMAT
> >
>
> Other than the obvious H-W, which ones don't?
Quite a few...the biggie being Duke/Fuqua, but also Regent
University, Morehead State University, Empire State College, City
University, University of Phoenix, University of Sarasota, Capella
University, Bellevue University, Pace University, University of
Maryland, Central Michigan University....the list goes on and on, I just
got tired of typing the names.
Have a great day,
Bruce
Peter
Bruce Tait wrote:
Thanks.
So Athabasca is looking more and more like the Fuqua of the Great White
North!
Peter
Bruce Tait
>
> Thanks.
>
> So Athabasca is looking more and more like the Fuqua of the Great White
> North!
>
> Peter
Well, I would expect anyone even remotely familiar with higher
education to recognize Duke University. Athabasca....who knows? I had
never heard of it until I got interested in the DL scene, and I don't
live all that far from the Great White North.
BTW...for those just jumping in...Athabasca doesn't require the
GMAT.
Peter
> > > I just picked up the most recent (10th) edition of "Which MBA - A
> > > critical guide to the world's best programmes" published by the
> > > Economist Intelligence Unit. They now have a chapter on distance
> > > education programmes and list the ones which qualify.
> > >
> > > They are:
> > >
> > > Aston (UK)
> > > Durham (UK)
> > > Edinburgh - Heriot Watt University (UK)
> > > Henley (UK)
> > > Open University (UK)
> > > Strathclyde (UK)
> > > Warwick (UK)
> > > Fuqua - Duke (USA)
> > > Katz - Pittsburgh (USA)
> > > Warrington - Florida (USA)
> > > Australian Graduate School of Managment
Only three US schools out of eleven? Why so few?
A whopping seven are in the UK and one is even in Australia.
This is quite an odd looking list from a North American's standpoint.
All these schools that no one this side of the Atlantic has ever heard of.
Could the list be so heavily weighted in favor of UK schools because
the source of the list is a UK based publication?
Hmmmm.
I don't know the answer here but I will tell you one thing.
There is an unbelievable amount of regional chauvinism when it comes to
compiling lists
of the so called "best universities".
In Canada, we think that we have one of the very best university systems in
the world.
Indeed many Canadians look down their noses at the vast majority of US
institutions outside of the Top 5 or 10.
(This will most likely shock US readers here.)
Now I live in the US and I see exactly the same type of chauvinism. My
father-in-law teaches at
a well known US business school and he told me that US B-schools "are
recognized internationally as the very best."
Likewise, I am sure that if I talked to Europeans they would compile a top ten
list with mostly continental schools.
And what about the Asians? Gosh, I would be willing to bet that they would
pick their schools over those in other parts of the world.
So, what's my point?
My point is to take these Top Ten or Eleven lists with a grain of salt. They
are always the result of regional biases and chauvinism.
Here in the USA if you want ready recognition and acceptance of your alma
mater, go with a US school. Or at least go with a Canadian school. The
brighter Americans know that Canada has a pretty "good" group of universities.
(I won't get into the silly "best game".)
I have talked to a lot of people both here and in Canada about their
perceptions of various universities and university systems.
I'll repeat that out here in "The Colonies" no one knows or even cares about
UK schools with the exception of maybe the London School of Economics.
Futhermore, if an American or Canadian claims to have a degree from a UK
institution it becomes very clear to everyone very quickly that it was
"obtained via correspondence". (Sorry, but most people don't know the
difference between correspondence and DL.)
As for Heriot Watt being on the list, while it may deserve its slot, it
surprises the hell out of many. The unfortunate thing about Heriot Watt is
that it seems to use the same type of marketing as many degree and diploma
mills. One person asked if Heriot Watt was the b-school that promoted itself
on the back of matchboxes. (This is a North American putdown because
correspondence schools offering courses in "hotel management" and "repair of
small electrical appliances" advertise in this manner.)
In conclusion, while there may be excellent schools on the far side of the
globe one must seriously take into account that domestic schools will have far
higher recognition value and acceptance at home. To use a specific example,
Heriot Watt may indeed be the Harvard of DL MBA programs, but I won't take its
program because I do not want to spend the rest of my life trying to assure
people that it's legit and not some school I found on the back of a matchbox.
The truth is that there are many good universities all over the world. One is
just far better off holding a degree from an institution known within their
own country or region.
Peter
Peter
Lawrie Miller wrote:
>
> >
> > The truth is that there are many good universities all over the world. One is
> > just far better off holding a degree from an institution known within their
> > own country or region.
>
> The prevailing prejudices may be unfair to H-W and other foreign
> schools, but I think Peter is spot on in his in his analysis, his
> conclusions, and his recommendations. I take no pleasure in saying
> that, I wish it were otherwise. My $1200 wishes it were otherwise
> too.
After dropping the Heriot Watt MBA program, did you select another one?
Peter
Peter
It's not just about going to a "top B-school". The top schools can produce absolute ditzes.
Just read the Fortune article (excerpt below) on a small group MBAs from some of those top
schools.
Likewise, lesser schools can produce top rate grads. It really depends on the raw material
the school has to work with (ie, the individual student). This is another reason I have
chosen the two Us on my shortlist. While they may not be Harvard, I am one motivated and
eager to learn student at this point in my life. I have about 20 years of business
experience to help me place in context and understand my studies.
There is truth in the scene in "Wall Street" where Gordon Gecko brags about how as a "City
University grad" he is running circles around people from far more prestigious B-schools.
Peter
PS if you are going to read this article please have a barf bag handy. It's truly
nauseating
From the article: http://www.fortune.com/fortune/2000/05/29/mba.html
Their first day is a lot like their first day at
Della--except that Idealab's temporary offices are in a
plain-vanilla office park, not in a downtown
warehouse. The women are each given a "desk" (a
door on its side, propped on supports), a phone,
pens, and paper. They get a tour and introductions.
Like Della, Idealab has a fully stocked kitchen (with
Clif Bars instead of Tootsie Rolls) and overbooked
meeting rooms. Erin and Nicole sit in a meeting room
with a new co-worker--a khaki-clad guy with wire
rims. "You need to start thinking about names and
branding," he says. "We'll use the Idealab family of
companies to get your message out." He suggests
they start building a computer model of the
economics of the business.
"I haven't built a model in a few weeks," Nicole says.
"It feels like it's time."
Where's the barf bag??
Peter
Lawrie Miller wrote:
> As a Scot living in the US, I jumped at the chance of doing the H-W
> MBA program (about 1995). I knew Heriot Watt to be a fine school with
> a solid reputation (not in the league of L.S.E., but completely
> worthy, nevertheless). I bought the first module, and indicated to
> my boss I was "thinking" of doing this MBA, hoping for some
> corporate benediction. He thought I was BSing him. He'd never
> heard of H-W, thought the name contrived, and really thought the
> "correspondence degree" a joke.
>
> I was stunned. I'd spent around $1200 on the module, s/ware,
> EUN fees, shipping and tax. I talked to a work colleagues, looking
> for solace and perhaps some vindication. They reacted with
> similar skepticism. Depressed, I went home where my wife told me
> she too thought it a bogus degree. She's spent a fair amount of
> time in Edinburgh, but could not recall ever hearing of H-W, and
> counseled, that if her reaction and that of those at work was
> typical (which seemed a reasonable bet), the degree could choke off
> as many opportunities as it might create.
>
I also considered doing the Heriot Watt MBA back in late '98.
After getting the same responses from associates and friends,
I too decided it was more prudent to go elsewhere.
Peter
Peter
Russ Blahetka wrote:
> Hmmmmmmmmmmm, my wife feels the same way about the Universidad de Simon
> Boliver. I guess everyone is <your country here>-centric.
>
That's the reality of the situation. The USA is probably one of the worst examples of
this type of snobbery. It just amazes me how important university ranking are in this
country. You can find half-wits who got into an Ivy league school through daddy's
connections looking down their noses at truly bright people with degrees from "lesser"
institutions.
I won't even get in the total absurdity of trying to rank universities. The concept is
merely a marketing device to sell more issues of certain magazines.
Peter
>
>
>
> On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Lawrie Miller wrote:
>
> >
> > Peter wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > In Canada, we think that we have one of the very best university systems in
> > > the world.
> >
> >
> > *The* best is the Scottish system, of course: ask any Scot.
> >
> >
> > > Now I live in the US and I see exactly the same type of chauvinism.
> >
> >
> > Now, I live in the U.S. too, and see precisely the same bias you
> > detail. Terrible, isn't it? So unjust. I mean, don't they know? :)
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Here in the USA if you want ready recognition and acceptance of your alma
> > > mater, go with a US school.
> >
> >
> > Words to live by.
> >
> >
> > > The
> > > brighter Americans know that Canada has a pretty "good" group of universities.
> >
> >
> > But the brightest Americans know Scottish universities are *the* best.
> > Just try finding the brightest Americans when you need them.
> >
> > You were right the first time, here in the U.S. "if you want ready
> > recognition and acceptance of your alma mater, go with a US school".
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I have talked to a lot of people both here and in Canada about their
> > > perceptions of various universities and university systems.
> > > I'll repeat that out here in "The Colonies" no one knows or even cares about
> > > UK schools with the exception of maybe the London School of Economics.
> >
> >
> > Well, me too, and quite a few knew more than just LSE. None even
> > mentioned Canadian universities at all. In fact few seemed to consider
> > Canada a country. Anyway, I agree with the thrust of your argument.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Futhermore, if an American or Canadian claims to have a degree from a UK
> > > institution it becomes very clear to everyone very quickly that it was
> > > "obtained via correspondence".
> >
> >
> > Yup, if you haven't studied "there", that does seem to be a problem,
> > and with an overseas institution, that deficit is more readily
> > surmised.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > As for Heriot Watt being on the list, while it may deserve its slot, it
> > > surprises the hell out of many.
> >
> >
> > Who, among the many, and specifically, why?
> >
> >
> > > The unfortunate thing about Heriot Watt is
> > > that it seems to use the same type of marketing as many degree and diploma
> > > mills.
> >
> >
> > Yes, very good point.
> >
> >
> > > One person asked if Heriot Watt was the b-school that promoted itself
> > > on the back of matchboxes.
> >
> > Again, although this may be apocryphal, I think the underlying tenet,
> > sound.
> >
> >
> > As a Scot living in the US, I jumped at the chance of doing the H-W
> > MBA program (about 1995). I knew Heriot Watt to be a fine school with
> > a solid reputation (not in the league of L.S.E., but completely
> > worthy, nevertheless). I bought the first module, and indicated to
> > my boss I was "thinking" of doing this MBA, hoping for some
> > corporate benediction. He thought I was BSing him. He'd never
> > heard of H-W, thought the name contrived, and really thought the
> > "correspondence degree" a joke.
> >
> > I was stunned. I'd spent around $1200 on the module, s/ware,
> > EUN fees, shipping and tax. I talked to a work colleagues, looking
> > for solace and perhaps some vindication. They reacted with
> > similar skepticism. Depressed, I went home where my wife told me
> > she too thought it a bogus degree. She's spent a fair amount of
> > time in Edinburgh, but could not recall ever hearing of H-W, and
> > counseled, that if her reaction and that of those at work was
> > typical (which seemed a reasonable bet), the degree could choke off
> > as many opportunities as it might create.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > In conclusion, while there may be excellent schools on the far side of the
> > > globe one must seriously take into account that domestic schools will have far
> > > higher recognition value and acceptance at home.
> >
> >
> > Yes, this is sound advice in my opinion.
> >
> >
> > > To use a specific example,
> > > Heriot Watt may indeed be the Harvard of DL MBA programs, but I won't take its
> > > program because I do not want to spend the rest of my life trying to assure
> > > people that it's legit and not some school I found on the back of a matchbox.
> >
> >
> > And that is the problem. One doesn't want the degree to become an
> > issue.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > The truth is that there are many good universities all over the world. One is
> > > just far better off holding a degree from an institution known within their
> > > own country or region.
> >
> >
Lawrie Miller
Peter wrote:
>
> After dropping the Heriot Watt MBA program, did you select another
> one?
Much later, I chose Amber University, mostly on the basis of price.
Perhaps a false economy. I enrolled, but took no classes. It has since
transpired that this DL MBA is not quite as DL as originally
advertised.
Another I considered, to the point of faxing a copy of my transcripts
that they required for preliminary vetting, was University of Colorado
Colorado Springs DL MBA. This program is AACSB and I thought U Colorado
OK. Costs aren't as low as they may seem at first. Important to tally
up all expenses. Also thought CSUDH DL MBA looked reasonable, cheap,
quick, and adequately accredited. For all schools, I used my wife,
work colleagues, and friends this time round, as guides to give me a
rough sense of local US perceptions (once bitten . . .).
CSUDH got a universal thumbs down. I really tried with this one, but
the consensus was clearly not positive, at all. U Colorado was
generally perceived to be on a par with U California.
Other possibles included Auburn (this got a thumbs up due to, I think,
a football team? Does this make sense?). City University, WA, did not
get a positive review from my guides. University of Phoenix was
similarly diss'd, as was Nova Southeastern.
Since that time, many more programs have become available. I think the
various University of Texas and the Texas A&M offerings look good. All
these choices are to a large extent influenced by price. Had I the
money . . .
Now, what were your choices? Athabasca and Rocky Roads? Seriously, I
had asked about Athabasca. Not surprisingly, none of my guides had
heard of it. Most did not like its "alternative" status when the
institution's function was explained. None particularly liked the
Canadian aspect (sorry).
(Royal Roads? Is that correct?)
Peter
Lawrie Miller wrote:
> Now, what were your choices? Athabasca and Rocky Roads? Seriously, I
> had asked about Athabasca. Not surprisingly, none of my guides had
> heard of it. Most did not like its "alternative" status when the
> institution's function was explained. None particularly liked the
> Canadian aspect (sorry).
>
> (Royal Roads? Is that correct?)
I started off by looking at several dozen programs across Canada and the
USA.
You should read my post about how I narrowed my choices down to AU and
Royal Roads (in the "Athabasca vs Royal Roads" thread).
I also looked at Heriot Watt. Conversations with colleagues and friends
typically went like this:
Me: I'm thinking of doing an MBA
They: Really? What school.
Me: Dunno yet. But I am looking at Heriot Watt.
They: Heriot what? Never heard of it.
Me: It's a Scottish university.
They: You're moving to Scotland?
Me: Gosh no, they offer a distance learning MBa. I could do it from home.
They: Oh, you mean it's a correspondence school!
Me: Well not quite. Sort of the same, only different.
This is when they start looking at me like I am the fool who is soon to be
parted from his money.
I also agree with your opinions on all the programs you listed above.
Colorado looks ok. So does Syracuse, but it's expensive.
I'll check out maryland since it doesn't require the GMAT.
I am leaning towards Royal Roads University right now because I like the
idea of the three 3-week residencies.
If I am going to do an MBA I want to be part of a cohort and make some good
connections. (This is another reason why
I find the Heriot Watt program so dismal. The student works in total
isolation.) I also like that I get to pay the lower canadian fee structure
while earning my income in US dollars. Double bonus for me. I could get the
RRU MBA for a total of about $15,600 US!
Peter
Peter
> I'll check out maryland since it doesn't require the GMAT.
>
>
Well, ho hum. Nothing too exciting there.
Peter
Lawrie Miller
to come on stream . . . then I saw the price. 22 grand plus books and
incidentals as I recall. Not excessive for some, I suppose. I'd been
hoping for 12k to 14k all in.
Peter
Lawrie Miller wrote:
>
> CSUDH got a universal thumbs down. I really tried with this one, but
> the consensus was clearly not positive, at all. U Colorado was
> generally perceived to be on a par with U California.
>
> Other possibles included Auburn (this got a thumbs up due to, I think,
> a football team? Does this make sense?). City University, WA, did not
> get a positive review from my guides. University of Phoenix was
> similarly diss'd, as was Nova Southeastern.
>
> Since that time, many more programs have become available. I think the
> various University of Texas and the Texas A&M offerings look good. All
> these choices are to a large extent influenced by price. Had I the
> money . . .
>
You and I maybe going against the grain here. I think that a number of
regulars here have
MBAs from places like Heriot Watt, Pheonix, and CSUDH. Therefore amazingly
enough
you will find a few recommendations here for these schools. Ufortunately,
the general public
image of these schools is pretty low. You don't need others snickering at
you behind your back
at work.
Peter
Pete
<snip>
>They: Oh, you mean it's a correspondence school!
<snip>
I understand.
After raised eyebrows (one set lifted during a job interview re: my
Regents degree) and Sally Struthers jokes (sad, but true), I decided
to opt for a traditional, 10 course, evening MSE program at a nearby
university.
One of my coworkers is doing the IT ALM at Harvard, but then again, he
lives in Cambridge and is a 20 minute walk from Harvard Square. After
doing an analysis of several schools (BU, NEU, Suffolk, Harvard, ad
nauseum) in the Metro Bean Town area, I decided on Brandeis --- the
courses are reasonably priced ($1325.00 per with full company
reimbursement) and the commute is bearable. Although the program is
through the Rabb School (Continuing and Professional Studies), the
'brand name' is top 50 (US News). Add to that that no one has cracked
wise or lifted eyebrows about my choice.
So here I am ... a Regents grad who has been hanging out in this group
since about February 1996 and I'm still not convinced that DE is the
way to go in general. I chose Regents because the sea-going Navy
lifestyle did not lend itself to traditional education. At this
point, I'd only recommend DE to family and friends who
(i) don't live in an area where educational opportunities are
rife or
(ii) through some exceptional personal circumstances
(homebound, taking care of an infirm relative, etc.) can't complete a
traditional program.
Pete
Ken Lewchuk
Fuqua.
Generally speaking there is a DL pecking order with respect to
acceptability:
1) traditional degree... traditional school... non-traditional delivery
2) non-traditional degree... traditional school... non-traditional delivery
3) non-traditional school
All else equal, aim for the top of the list.
"Bruce Tait" <bt...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:39B73F...@erols.com...
Ken Lewchuk
The number of British schools reflects the DL bias of the respective
countries.
Australia. DL has been a feature of Australian education for years,
including the "best" aussy schools. UNSW, Monash... the best schools have
been offering comprehensive DL opportunities for some time.
UK. DL has also been part of the UK environment... see Open University and
the University of London. Again, some of the best schools have worked to
offer DL opportunities. You speak of LSE, you can actually study the LSE
curriculum through UoL external.
USA. DL has not been a part of the USA climate, partly because of "free
market education" which allowed the proliferation of low-grade
correspondence schools. Even now, the best US Universities do not offer DL
degrees.
Hence, when you make a list of the best DL MBA opportunities, the list is
slanted towards the UK.
On Chauvinism. In the US there is some chauvanism but there is more
ignorance (i.e. there is not always that the foreign is inferior... but it
is unknown). This merely requires a little marketing which is not
necessarily a large hurdle.
On correspondence... if you work in New York and you graduate from CSDH...
it is also clear you studied by correspondence. That is why it can be
important that you graduate from a traditional school with a traditional
program.
On the acceptance of foreign degrees... your point is invalid. Certainly,
within the US a Duke MBA will be more valuable than a HW... but howabout the
many no-name state schools ? HW (and others) are easy to market as the
equivalent to a top US school (top 40 or so, anyway)... if you have a US 3rd
tier MBA, everyone will know you have a US 3rd tier MBA.
Finally, a word on globalization. With globalization the chauvinism that
exists is breaking apart. If you work for a small domestic org in Topeka
perhaps you should attend KU but if you work for a MNC, a foreign credential
may actually be an asset (read, diversification, international).
"Peter" <peter12**@selin.com> wrote in message
news:39B7A69F...@selin.com...
Ken Lewchuk
"Lawrie Miller" <osi...@home.net> wrote in message
news:39B7BBC1...@home.net...
>
> Peter wrote:
>
> >
> > In Canada, we think that we have one of the very best university systems
in
> > the world.
>
>
Amongst the informed the UK has an excellent education system... the US has
a poor one. The US does have some of the best schools in the world... but
they have many of the worst which pulls the average down.
> > Now I live in the US and I see exactly the same type of chauvinism.
>
>
> Now, I live in the U.S. too, and see precisely the same bias you
> detail. Terrible, isn't it? So unjust. I mean, don't they know? :)
>
>
> >
> > Here in the USA if you want ready recognition and acceptance of your
alma
> > mater, go with a US school.
Go to the best school you can. A top foreign school will get you farther
than a poor US one.
> Words to live by.
>
>
> > The
> > brighter Americans know that Canada has a pretty "good" group of
universities.
>
>
> But the brightest Americans know Scottish universities are *the* best.
> Just try finding the brightest Americans when you need them.
> You were right the first time, here in the U.S. "if you want ready
> recognition and acceptance of your alma mater, go with a US school".
> > I have talked to a lot of people both here and in Canada about their
> > perceptions of various universities and university systems.
> > I'll repeat that out here in "The Colonies" no one knows or even cares
about
> > UK schools with the exception of maybe the London School of Economics.
>
>
> Well, me too, and quite a few knew more than just LSE. None even
> mentioned Canadian universities at all. In fact few seemed to consider
> Canada a country. Anyway, I agree with the thrust of your argument.
> > Futhermore, if an American or Canadian claims to have a degree from a UK
> > institution it becomes very clear to everyone very quickly that it was
> > "obtained via correspondence".
You are naive to think it is any less obvious when you study at "Colorado
State" when you work in New York.
> Yup, if you haven't studied "there", that does seem to be a problem,
> and with an overseas institution, that deficit is more readily
> surmised.
>
>
> >
> > As for Heriot Watt being on the list, while it may deserve its slot, it
> > surprises the hell out of many.
>
>
> Who, among the many, and specifically, why?
>
>
> > The unfortunate thing about Heriot Watt is
> > that it seems to use the same type of marketing as many degree and
diploma
> > mills.
True... this is not a HW problem, it is a US marketing problem.
> Yes, very good point.
>
>
> > One person asked if Heriot Watt was the b-school that promoted itself
> > on the back of matchboxes.
>
> Again, although this may be apocryphal, I think the underlying tenet,
> sound.
>
>
> As a Scot living in the US, I jumped at the chance of doing the H-W
> MBA program (about 1995). I knew Heriot Watt to be a fine school with
> a solid reputation (not in the league of L.S.E., but completely
> worthy, nevertheless). I bought the first module, and indicated to
> my boss I was "thinking" of doing this MBA, hoping for some
> corporate benediction. He thought I was BSing him. He'd never
> heard of H-W, thought the name contrived, and really thought the
> "correspondence degree" a joke.
>
> I was stunned. I'd spent around $1200 on the module, s/ware,
> EUN fees, shipping and tax. I talked to a work colleagues, looking
> for solace and perhaps some vindication. They reacted with
> similar skepticism. Depressed, I went home where my wife told me
> she too thought it a bogus degree. She's spent a fair amount of
> time in Edinburgh, but could not recall ever hearing of H-W, and
> counseled, that if her reaction and that of those at work was
> typical (which seemed a reasonable bet), the degree could choke off
> as many opportunities as it might create.
>
Myself and another co-worker approached our employer (fortune 1000
equivalent - Canadian) to sponsor our MBA programs (me HW, he Nova). The
employer checked both schools through the academic dean at the local biz
school... I received 100% funding, he 0 and switched to HW. I then moved to
a US firm (forbes private 10). They picked up the tab and gave me time off
to study. I then interviewed at numerous US corporations (fortune 1000,
500, investment bank and accounting firms). Most interviews discussed the
degree and there was no difficulty in gaining acceptance... many were very
impressed and 1 individual (Senior Manager at Big 5) asked for more
informantion because she was interested in the program).
I don't know who you are talking to but so far the degree has performed very
well for me.
My the way... 2 job offers with a salary equal to my friends from the US top
20.
>
> >
> > In conclusion, while there may be excellent schools on the far side of
the
> > globe one must seriously take into account that domestic schools will
have far
> > higher recognition value and acceptance at home.
>
>
> Yes, this is sound advice in my opinion.
>
>
> > To use a specific example,
> > Heriot Watt may indeed be the Harvard of DL MBA programs, but I won't
take its
> > program because I do not want to spend the rest of my life trying to
assure
> > people that it's legit and not some school I found on the back of a
matchbox.
>
>
> And that is the problem. One doesn't want the degree to become an
> issue.
>
>
> >
> > The truth is that there are many good universities all over the world.
One is
> > just far better off holding a degree from an institution known within
their
> > own country or region.
>
>
Ken Lewchuk
You are doing a MBA, what school ?
Royal what? Where is that ?
So you are moving to Canada.
So it is a correspondence school.
How does the school rank?
Yup... you are really going places !!!
"Peter" <peter12**@selin.com> wrote in message
news:39B7D974...@selin.com...
Peter
Ken Lewchuk wrote:
> Let me get this straight
>
> You are doing a MBA, what school ?
>
> Royal what? Where is that ?
>
> So you are moving to Canada.
>
> So it is a correspondence school.
>
> How does the school rank?
>
> Yup... you are really going places !!!
>
Brrrrp. Sorry bad analogy.
Here's the situation. I don't work for some one else. (I have only said this
about five times. So I am surprised that it hasn't sunk in.) This means I
quietly get my MBA and only then put the letters on my business card. If anyone
asks about my MBA I simply tell the truth, "I am a Canadian and got them both in
Canada. My BBA is from SFU in Vancover and my MBA is from RRU which is a short
ferry ride and car commute away from Vancouver."
Hell, I live just about 100 miles from both institutions.
If they dig deeper I continue with the truth, "The RRU MBA is from a real
university in BC. It offers an MBA which combines extended residencies with DL
modules."
Hell the RRU program requires 9 weeks in residency. Syracuse U, the biggie in US
DL (along with Fuqua) only requires four weeks... or is it two?
You have to admit this sounds a hell of a lot better than I got my MBA from some
strange and highly suspicious sounding program in Scotland.
Doesn't it set your alarm bells of just a tad when Lawrie's wife lived in
Edinborough (sp?) and never heard of Heriot Watt.
Peter
Lawrie Miller
foreign and domestic DL MBA degrees, not which degrees are
intrinsically more worthy in other respects.
Ken Lewchuk wrote:
>
> "Lawrie Miller" <osi...@home.net> wrote in message
> news:39B7BBC1...@home.net...
> >
>
> > *The* best is the Scottish system, of course: ask any Scot.
>
> Amongst the informed the UK has an excellent education system... the US has
> a poor one. The US does have some of the best schools in the world... but
> they have many of the worst which pulls the average down.
Yes, but the point of the comment was to emphasize that chauvinism is
international. Having experienced both higher education systems first
hand, I'm satisfied the opinions I've detailed in this newsgroup on
their relative merits are accurate.
>
> Go to the best school you can. A top foreign school will get you farther
> than a poor US one.
>
But H-W is not a top foreign school, nor is it considered a top school
in Scotland, for that matter. It is a solid, middle-of-the-road
institution.
>
> > > Futhermore, if an American or Canadian claims to have a degree from a UK
> > > institution it becomes very clear to everyone very quickly that it was
> > > "obtained via correspondence".
>
> You are naive to think it is any less obvious when you study at "Colorado
> State" when you work in New York.
>
> > Yup, if you haven't studied "there", that does seem to be a problem,
> > and with an overseas institution, that deficit is more readily
> > surmised.
> >
I think neither of us is naive in this respect. I have a USNY and
a Regents degree, and I live thousands of miles from Albany, NY. No
one has ever batted an eyelid about these out-of-state degrees.
> >
> > As a Scot living in the US, I jumped at the chance of doing the H-W
> > MBA program (about 1995). and indicated to
> > my boss I was "thinking" of doing this MBA, hoping for some
> > corporate benediction. He thought I was BSing him. He'd never
> > heard of H-W, thought the name contrived, and really thought the
> > "correspondence degree" a joke.
> >
> I talked to a work colleagues, looking
> > for solace and perhaps some vindication. They reacted with
> > similar skepticism. my wife told me
> > she too thought it a bogus degree.
> I don't know who you are talking to but so far the degree has performed very
> well for me.
> My the way... 2 job offers with a salary equal to my friends from the US top
> 20.
Well, I've just detailed some who I was talking to.
I've been talking to co-workers, my wife, friends. That list
encompasses one personnel manager, several other hiring managers,
various and sundry engineers and programmers.
The results of these "consultations" vis-a-vis H-W, left me in no
doubt as to their opinions and prejudices, and I believe the views
expressed are likely representative of the wider (US) population.
Marginal utility is best assessed in relation to the opinions and
prejudices of the wider population (I've posted more than one
analysis of why that is).
Additionally, the amount of time and effort *you* have had to
spend in this forum dissuading skeptics, supports my experiences
and conclusions, rather than yours, Ken.
That H-W is a sound institution is not disputed. The rigor of
the H-W MBA module I bought, if representative of the rest,
leaves me in no doubt as to the quality of the program.
Unfortunately the issue is not quality but utility, and on
that score, U.S. residents would be better served by a no-name
U.S. MBA than a Heriot Watt degree.
Peter
Ken Lewchuk wrote:
> Jeeze, here we go.
>
It's precisely my intense desire to avoid experiencing the "Jeeze, here we go
again" feeling about having to constantly defend my alma mater that made me drop
any possibility of doing the Heriot Watt program.
I can feel your frustration.
If you had chosen Colorado or Syracuse or Fuqua for you MBA and then discounted
RRU or Athabasca, I'd keep my mouth shut. But when you do so having an MBA
from Heriot Watt I do find it humorous and even bordering on the ridiculous.
I work in business with a lot of bright people. Image is pretty important in
terms of one's academic credentiuals in my circles. (I think that you will agree
that a mediocre student of average intelligence from Harvard or Wharton will
have many more doors open to him than a brilliant top student from a second or
third tier school.) So, I want to avoid peers snickering behind my back. The
likelihood of snickering is extremely high with am MBA from an unknown
institution from across the globe. The probability of snickering by
Washingtonians over a BC university is pretty damn remote. Although there are
Harvard snobs who look down at Northwestern grads, etc, so one never can avoid
that possibility.
Peter
Peter
Lawrie Miller wrote:
Great contribution, Lawrie.
I'll add two more points here.
First, my father-in-law teaches who business at PennState came out to visit us in
early August.
So I took the opportunity to pump him for his opinions on what I should do
regarding earning an MBA.
His unequivocal advice was to just get the MBA and not worry about the institution
so much. (He made it clear that he meant from an fully legit institution.) This
was based on my age (over 40). He said that if I were in my twenties he would
strongly advise me to try to get into the best school possible. However, at my age
even a Harvard MBA would not have that much impact on my career.
He felt that a DL MBA from a bona fide US or Canadian university would do just
fine. I will add that I want more than just the letters. I want to actually learn.
I enjoy going to school. So the program and institution must pass certain
standards with me.
My other point is that if a life-long resident of North America reveals that he
had to resort to a Scottish (or substitute any far off land, eg, Norwegian,
Afghani, etc. ) institution in order to get his MBA, peoples' alarm bells will go
off.
With 2000 universities and colleges in the USA, why on earth did you have to go to
Heriot Watt? Couldn't you get into a domestic program? Even if they don't ask
these questions, they will be in the backs of their minds. There will always be
that suspicion that your degree is somehow not quite kosher.
Peter
Peter
Peter wrote:
>
> My other point is that if a life-long resident of North America reveals that he
> had to resort to a Scottish (or substitute any far off land, eg, Norwegian,
> Afghani, etc. ) institution in order to get his MBA, peoples' alarm bells will go
> off.
>
> With 2000 universities and colleges in the USA, why on earth did you have to go to
> Heriot Watt? Couldn't you get into a domestic program? Even if they don't ask
> these questions, they will be in the backs of their minds. There will always be
> that suspicion that your degree is somehow not quite kosher.
>
> Peter
The above is a very important point.
I will be honest here about my own reasons at looking at Heriot Watt back in 98.
Back then I had just admitted to myself finally that I yearned to have an MBA.
However, I was really out of touch with what was required to gain admission into an
MBA program. So I assumed the worst. I was a B student. I wasn't a great number
cruncher under exam situations. So I fooled myself into thinking
that if I did get into a program it would be a bottom of the barrel school. Then I
heard the
siren call of Heriot Watt: " Come, come, come to me. I'll take anyone. I don't care
what
your GPA was. I don't care about GMATs. I don't even care if you never finished
high school, let alone have an undergraduate degree. I will take you whoever you
maybe."
Once I got the packet I started asking around. My own initial reaction was one of
being "underwhelmed" by Heriot Watt and its MBA program. I showed friends the
brochure and asked for their honest opinion.
The universal feedback was that the whole deal looked dubious, if not downright
suspicious. They cautioned me
about enrolling at Heriot Watt.
I now thank them. Since then I have done enough research to know that I could get into
quite a few good schools and maybe even Washington State's Executive MBA.
However, due to time constraints and my own study preferences I have decided upon the
DL course.
Don't sell yourself short.
Peter
Peter
Ken Lewchuk wrote:
> HW (and others) are easy to market as the
> equivalent to a top US school (top 40 or so, anyway)...
>
Please. This is patent nonsense.
In the USA one is better of with an MBA from ChicoState or CSUDH than with a
"Harriet What?" degree.
Peter
Peter
I found this Q&A on a site about Heriot Watt's MBA program:
http://www.abbeyassociates.com/hwpage.html
Q: Did you interact with other students?
A: In the two-plus years I was in the program, I never saw or talked to another
Heriot-Watt student except via an occasional E-mail. The exam site I was assigned (Florida
Institute of Technology in Melbourne, Florida) never had another student taking a test
while I was there, and usually had none the entire exam week.
Groan! I have always heard that in MBA programs a student learns as much--if not
more--from fellow students than from the courses themselves.
DL MBAs like Athabasca, Fuqua, and many others are designed to maximize student
collaboartion and communication through group projects.
I find the idea of doing a program in such total isolation very unappealing. It's not
that I need support. Not at all. But I want the interaction with others. I want to
network. I want to collaborate. I want to interact. I want to chitchat.
The Heriot Watt program is about as appealing as buying the all the "Portable MBA" books
and reading them at home alone. This is definitely not what a university education should
look like.
Peter
Peter
Pete wrote:
>
> So here I am ... a Regents grad who has been hanging out in this group
> since about February 1996 and I'm still not convinced that DE is the
> way to go in general.
> Pete
I'd like to know why you feel this way since I am looking at two DL MBAs.
Can you elaborate?
Peter
uiupe...@hotmail.com
>it is also clear you studied by correspondence. That is why it can be
>important that you graduate from a traditional school with a traditional
>program.
One minor point of clarification. Unlike the HUX program, the CSUDH
OnlineMBA is not a *correspondence* degree program. It is an *online*
degree with significant interaction between students. The word
"correspondence" conjures up images of a student studying
independently in an academic vacuum (a la Heriot-Watt).
http://www.mbaonline.csudh.edu/index2.htm
Here's the link to the CSUDH MBA home page. If this is a
correspondence degree, then I have a nephew named Curious George.
Michael Barger
uiupe...@hotmail.com
Steve Levicoff
> After raised eyebrows (one set lifted during a job interview re: my
> Regents degree) and Sally Struthers jokes (sad, but true), I decided
> to opt for a traditional, 10 course, evening MSE program at a nearby
> university . . .
>
> So here I am ... a Regents grad who has been hanging out in this group
> since about February 1996 and I'm still not convinced that DE is the
> way to go in general. I chose Regents because the sea-going Navy
> lifestyle did not lend itself to traditional education. At this
> point, I'd only recommend DE to family and friends who
> (i) don't live in an area where educational opportunities are
> rife or
> (ii) through some exceptional personal circumstances
> (homebound, taking care of an infirm relative, etc.) can't complete a
> traditional program.
>
> Pete
Fascinating perspective, and one with which (as a Thomas Edison State
College grad who went on for two additional nontraditional degrees) I
find I increasingly agree.
I would not take it quite as far as Pete, but would submit that the
biggest problem with distance education in terms of the direction in
which it has moved is that it has become much more of a Lone Ranger
experience. (Yes, despite the so-called collaborative projects in which
some online students participate.)
My TESC experience has never been questioned, nor have I ever received
any Sally Struthers jokes. On the other hand, I live only an hour from
TESC, and made sure that all of my academic meetings (with program
advisor, portfolio advisor, testing advisor, etc.) and the few exams
with which I bothered were done *at* TESC. Why? Because I always felt
that (1) it would go smoother if both they and I had a face we could
associate with the name, and (2) I could honestly say, "I went to . . ."
instead of couching the language by saying, "I received my degree from .
. ."
In fact, however, during the entire time I worked on my B.A. (a whopping
year and a half), I never met another TESC student. Never. Until I
enrolled in my M.A. program at Vermont College of Norwich University and
met another TESC grad. Who had also never met another TESC student when
he pursued his bachelor's. Lone Ranger experience? Damn right.
When I did the V.C. master's program followed by the Union doctorate, I
met some people who felt they were in a Lone Ranger experience in the
course of their graduate work. But compared to my TESC experience, V.C.
and Union were perfect, because they had residencies in the first
place. (In other words, for some people it was less than they were used
to, for me it was more.) The one thing they offered that I never felt
at TESC (nor, I imagine, would Regents or COSC students experience) is a
sense of academic *community*.
To be honest, I never liked the term "distance" education. I have
historically preferred "nontraditional" or "alternative" education.
Because the primary way in which they differ from traditional or
residential education is in the learning methodology (which I find far
more creative than sitting in a classroom).
Thus, to me, TESC was a means to an end: A convenient way of getting the
B.A. in order to be admitted to graduate schools where I would have the
opportunity to hang out and play student. An ideal solution?
Absolutely. But hardly "meaningful."
There are many reasons I would still recommend TESC, Regents, etc. to
others. Certainly, the opportunity to pull off a degree while in the
military is one of them. Another would be the opportunity to earn, say,
a B.S.N. if one is already employed as a professional nurse. Another
would be to quickly and efficiently earn a bachelor's degree as an
entree into graduate school. But let's not be so naive to say that the
person who sits back and challenges a degree by portfolio, or does a
degree online, or never touches base with his or her school, has had a
true and total "college experience."
As far as Pete's rationale, I have not experienced it, but I can
appreciate it. The fact that TESC was located close enough that I could
go there was, at the time, merely a matter of convenience. But I would
imagine that I would have run into it if I had chosen, instead, to earn
my bachelor's degree at, say, Brigham Young University (and had never
been there), a school in California (regionally accredited, of course),
or any other school I had never visited. Then there would, indeed, be
some explaining to do. And the more I look at current developments in
the field, there should be.
--
,-~~-.___.
/ | ' \
( ) 0
\_/-, ,----'
==== //
/ \-'~; /~~~(O)
/ __/~| / |
=( _____| (_________|
------------------------------
Steve Levicoff
levi...@ix.netcom.com
http://levicoff.tripod.com
------------------------------
ed
worry. There are many good schools in Florida that I never heard of,
(until I started looking for a school myself) and I lived within an
hour's drive from these places. Also, most Floridians never heard of
Nova.
Before I started the HW program, I asked several friends and
co-workers from Scotland about HW. All of them knew about it, all of
them said it was a great school. One even knew about the DL program. I
also looked up HW in some school guides, and read some magazines, etc.
All said it was a very good school.
However, I agree that people in the US will have a hard time
explaining this degree. A friend of mine is having similar trouble. He
is from Singapore who graduated from UF. He went back to work in
Singapore and had trouble finding a job because noone heard of UF.
They just new the big names like Harvard, Yale, University of Chicago,
etc. If I was living and working in the US, I would probably not do
the HW program.
ed
either know of the HW program already or will at least look at it and
make a judgement then. The ones who don't know will just sit back and
say "ye haw, you wanna go where? I ain't hearda that place."
On Thu, 7 Sep 2000 20:09:20 -0700, "Ken Lewchuk" <lew...@ev1.net>
wrote:
Bill Dayson
individual decision. There is no objective answer on how to make that
choice that applies to everyone, so this thread could continue forever
without reaching a resolution. Nevertheless, interesting issues have
been raised. Here are some rather sceptical questions I had while
reading the posts:
Might the choice depend in part on where a person is in his or her
career? I get the impression that a school's prestige is most important
for young people just entering the labor market, for whom their degree
is their main selling point. But for more mature workers,
accomplishments and experience become more important, and the degree
prestige factor recedes. So must a mid-career individual who is just
adding an MBA to an established resume pay the same attention to the
published rankings as a person in his/her early twenties without
experience?
Does it matter what kind of industry one is seeking employment in, and
where your potential employer is in the institutional life cycle of that
industry? Living here in the Bay Area, I know a number of people who
work for the new entrepeneurial "dot.com's". And degree-prestige seems
to be a lot less important in these companies than in an older, more
established hierarchical corporation. The 'dot.com's' seem to be
interested in skills. They have a need for a person who can accomplish
this, this and this. If you have the right mix of education and
experience, they like you regardless of where you got your degree.
Whether or not you graduated from a "ranked" school comes a lot lower on
the list. So if one has a choice between a DL school that has higher
prestige but lacks what you personally need, and a lesser known school
that offers course design that you feel will educate you better, or
courses that will better fit your requirements, which to choose?
Might the regional factor apply not only to countries, but more locally
than that? Consider the University of North Dakota. Probably a
relatively obscure school on the national level here in the US. But I'd
be willing to bet that it has considerable clout within North Dakota
itself. It may be a very good vehicle to get into state and local
government in that state, or to find employment in North Dakota
businesses. The question is: the lower prestige and more regional
schools may have influence within their own region, so might they be a
good choice for a person seeking employment there, if they offer other
advantages over a prestige program such as cost, delivery mode or
specialization? I think that schools often rise in perceived prestige
the closer one gets to them.
Which suggests the question, are national and multi-national
corporations more influenced by perceived degree prestige than local
companies? I think that they may be, if only because you are more apt to
have people from outside your own region evaluating you.
Then there is the question of recommendations. How many newly minted
MBA's, particularly from prestige schools, are hired cold? And how many
get jobs because of contacts and networking? Might one of the advantages
of attending a prestige school be in meeting people who either already
are, or are children of, influential figures in corporations you would
like to work for? So that you don't just simply give them your resume,
but you have people on the inside talking you up? My limited experience
is that an awful lot of hiring takes place this way. Companies don't
like to take a risk on someone unless they come with a proven track
record or else recommendations from someone the company knows and
trusts. Personally I think that's a big factor in the success that the
Ivy League or Stanford have in placing their students. The same thing
for Oxbridge in the UK. Well, my question is whether a DL MBA would give
a student the same kind of social connections. Almost certainly
Heriot-Watt, even assuming that it qualifies as a prestige institution
(I'm not convinced), would not give its solitary students that kind of
advantage. So how much advantage would a prestige degree retain with the
contacts/recommendations factor removed? Could *any* DL MBA provide
enough contact with other students and faculty to provide this? Could a
more interactive MBA with lots of team projects be preferrable for some
people, even if it falls lower in the rankings?
Bill Dayson
> I just picked up the most recent (10th) edition
> of "Which MBA - A critical guide to the world's
> best programmes" published by the
> Economist Intelligence Unit...
Peter replies:
> Only three US schools out of eleven? Why so
> few? A whopping seven are in the UK and
> one is even in Australia.
> This is quite an odd looking list from a North
> American's standpoint...
I recently looked at a copy at the San Mateo 'Borders' bookstore, and I
share Peter's opinion.
Several things about the book struck me. First there was its price, $40
or something, for a paperback. Then there was the fact that it is full
of advertising.
It does have the advantage that it gives a lot more information about
each program than most books of its kind. But among that information was
the fact that most of the listed residential programs seemed heavily
oriented towards foreign students, in some cases representing more than
90% of the program's enrollment.
And of course there is that geographical breakdown of programs.
My overall impression was that "Which MBA" is basically a marketing
vehicle intended to sell British MBA programs overseas.
John Bear
Bill Dayson wrote, re Which MBA:
> I recently looked at a copy at the San Mateo 'Borders' bookstore, and I
> share Peter's opinion.
>
> Several things about the book struck me. First there was its price, $40
> or something, for a paperback.
Outrageous. But have you checked prices on non-mass-market paperbacks
lately.
25 to 30 cents a page is pretty common. Which MBA is "only" 8 cents a page.
> Then there was the fact that it is full
> of advertising.
A very common British reference book tradition. At least their ads are
identifiable as ads, unlike the unmarked paid space in the Peterson's
guides.
> My overall impression was that "Which MBA" is basically a marketing
> vehicle intended to sell British MBA programs overseas.
I think not, Bill. My 7th edition lists the following:
22 British schools
23 Other European schools
45 North American schools
14 Australia-India-Hong Kong (and a few other places)
John Bear
(Bears' Guide, with amazon discount, is
about 6 cents a page)
http://www.degree.net
>
T.L.C. Head
> >On correspondence... if you work in New York and you graduate from CSDH...
> >it is also clear you studied by correspondence. That is why it can be
> >important that you graduate from a traditional school with a traditional
> >program.
>
> One minor point of clarification. Unlike the HUX program, the
> CSUDH OnlineMBA is not a *correspondence* degree program. It is
> an *online* degree with significant interaction between students.
> The word "correspondence" conjures up images of a student studying
> independently in an academic vacuum (a la Heriot-Watt).
I second that; the HUX program, though I recommend it highly, is a
correspondence rather than online program. Only two of the courses
(HUX 501 - History and HUX 505 - Philosophy) included an optional
"online" track where you meet weekly for online chat forums
(participation therein counting for 10% of your grade).
Peace,
Tom C. Head
co-author, "Get Your IT Degree and Get Ahead"
Coming September 29th from Osborne/McGraw-Hill
"Don't have good ideas if you aren't willing to be responsible for them."
-- Alan J. Perlis
Ken Lewchuk
DL MBA is now the largest MBA program in the USA. Apparently many in the US
feel that the market value is sufficient to justify the cost as well as the
effort in obtaining the credential.
"ed" <ed3...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:39b90ef6...@nnrp.gol.com...
Ken Lewchuk
There are three issues which, although related, are separate.
1) Establishing contacts within the business community.
Certainly, this is one area where traditional programs have a great
advantage over any DL program. The level of "camaraderie" you establish
during a traditional program can not be matched in a DL environment... even
at those schools which have residencies of various sorts. The question is
how important this is to the individual. To a young-un out of undergrad,
this can be very important (the type least likely to pursue DL). To an
experienced veteran who already has established a network, it is less
important. There are also ways to establish a viable network outside of
grad school (professional organizations, etc.).
2) Quality.
Clearly, you want a program which imparts the skills and knowledge expected
at a stringent graduate level. Otherwise, you might as well just buy a
degree from a mill.
3) Market Value / Acceptability
The basis rule of thumb is go for the highest quality program which meets
your needs (i.e. cost, pedagogy, etc.). If there is a tie, go with the
local option. True, the presitge of a degree has diminishing importance as
you advance but why would you not choose the most prestigous option
available... you never know. You really can't count on name recognition...
it applies to only a few schools and is geographically dependent. So, the
question is... if you end-up needing to market your degree (and you probably
will), what degree would you prefer to market. Most in the US have not
heard of the Ivey school of business. However, in a few minutes I could
convince most anyone that it is equal to the top in the US per rankings from
Macleans, the Economist, the Financial Times and so on. Would you prefer
that or Athabasca, or CSDH
A few last words on HW:
Yes Virginia, HW is a prestigious institution... not Harvard perhaps but
VERY respected. A few examples... did you know that HW and Stanford have
worked together on several joint seminars, etc. ? Did you know that HW is
considered to have perhaps THE top petroleum engineering program in the
world (consistently win global competitions)? And of course, the biz school
is well known and respected.
The only valid criticism of the school is that they did not keep tighter
control over how their DL degree is marketed... this has resulted in the
marketing abuses that have been documented.
Other criticisms are not universal, although they may be an issue for some
students.
1) Support. Truly, in the HW DL MBA you are on your own. However, this is
NOT a feature of the MBA but of the mode of study chosen. If you take the
program full-time, part-time, weekends or summer school, the support is
there. The trade-off is support for flexibility.
2) Pedagogy. 100% exams... this does not fit for some.
3) Difficulty level... time and again accomplished students agree that this
may be the most demanding course of study they have undertaken. There are
easier routes.
In conclusion. DL has offered the unprecedented opportunity for students to
undertake academic study from schools ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD ! You can
choose schools in any country based on the uniqueness of the program, the
quality / prestige of the school or simply on cost. These can be exciting
times !
Incidently... I just saw a new Master of Professional Ethics via DL from the
University of New South Wales... a very unique program from a top Aussy
school for only $12,500 AUD.
"Bill Dayson" <cis...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:19842-39...@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Peter
Bill Dayson wrote:
> My overall impression was that "Which MBA" is basically a marketing
> vehicle intended to sell British MBA programs overseas.
>
Thanks. I could not have said it better myself.
One needs to solicit opinions from more than one source in selecting their
MBA.
This publication is the only one that promotes Harriet What?
The fact maybe that it is indeed a good program. However, the question will
ALWAYS pop up at to why an American or Canadian had to go to a program so
far away.
Peter
Peter
Ken Lewchuk wrote:
> As an aside. According to a recent article from Temple University, the HW
> DL MBA is now the largest MBA program in the USA. Apparently many in the US
> feel that the market value is sufficient to justify the cost as well as the
> effort in obtaining the credential.
>
Isn't The Jerry Springer Show also the most popular TV program in America?
Popularity with the masses says nothing about quality.
The real reason it's the most popular is because it's the easiest MBA program to
get into.
Don't discount that.
Peter
Larry McQueary
"Easiest" to get into, perhaps. However, I gather from what I've read that it's
more rigorous than most US MBA programs, possibly as a result of the format.
Larry
"Peter" <peter12**@selin.com> wrote in message
news:39B99A07...@selin.com...
Larry McQueary
No, it will not ALWAYS come up. And on the few occasions that it does, it's a
question that's easily answered and dismissed: convenience, quality, and rigor.
Larry
Peter
Larry McQueary wrote:
> No, it will not ALWAYS come up. And on the few occasions that it does, it's a
> question that's easily answered and dismissed: convenience, quality, and rigor.
>
> Larry
With all due respect, why should I believe you if you claimed this? Of course you
will try to defend your credentials.
Sorry, but my alarm bells would go off.
Then if I actually researched it and discovered that:
-anyone can get in.
-all work is done in total isolation,
I would discount its value even further.
Peter
Lawrie Miller
ed wrote:
>
> No, just because one wife hasen't heard of a school isn't enough to
> worry. There are many good schools in Florida that I never heard of,
> (until I started looking for a school myself) and I lived within an
> hour's drive from these places. Also, most Floridians never heard of
> Nova.
>
> Before I started the HW program, I asked several friends and
> co-workers from Scotland about HW. All of them knew about it, all of
> them said it was a great school. One even knew about the DL program. I
> also looked up HW in some school guides, and read some magazines, etc.
> All said it was a very good school.
Yes, well, the point was that my wife is an American with more
experience of Scottish culture and Scottish life than most of
her fellow countrymen, but that even given that advantage, Heriot
Watt had failed to make an impression.
I can't think of a Scot I know who would not be aware of H-W, but
that isn't in question. The issue is perceptions in the United
States. The natures of these local (in the US) preferences and
prejudices are important, for they determine the marginal utility
of the degree conferred, as indeed you partially acknowledge in the
remainder of your post.
Our differences may be distilled to varying views of the utility of
the H-W DL MBA degree in the United States. Blinding obvious point,
but lest we stray.
Heriot Watt University is a very respectable, mid-tier, solid,
state funded institution. I can think of no one I know back home,
including its graduates, who would described it as a great school.
The DL MBA module I have, and the past published exams related
to that module, convince me, if they are representative of the
total program, that the H-W MBA is indeed both rigorous and worthy.
Unfortunately, here in the States, as it pertains to utility, the
problem is not what is, but what appears to be.
Karlos Al Lacaye
wrote:
> No, just because one wife hasen't heard of a school isn't enough to
> worry. There are many good schools in Florida that I never heard
> of,
> (until I started looking for a school myself) and I lived within an
> hour's drive from these places. Also, most Floridians never heard
> of
> Nova.
(snip)
Hi, there!
I don't think this is completely right. At least in South Florida,
"most" South Floridians have heard of Nova Southeastern University. No
even that, "most" South Floridians consider Nova a "residential"
university instead of a "distace education" university. Additionally,
quite a few South Floridians know that Nova Southeastern University has
campuses internationally, such as in Panama, Caribbean, Europe (I think
Switzerland), etc. I myself know a woman who graduated from Nova in
Panama. Quality of instruction aside, is there any other Floridian
university with such an international presence, meaning campuses in
different countries? I tend to believe that the answer is "no".
Regards,
Karlos Al Lacaye
caballe...@myremarq.com
* Sent from Novell Discussion Forums http://novell.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Michael Lloyd
2000 with a prospective student. I believe he needs to disabuse himself of
the perception that Edinburgh Business School lacks academic rigor and is
primarily a refuge for students lacking in academic achievement.
I am familiar with the Seattle-area MBA programs, as he has cited in
previous messages, and they are not held in the highest regard even in the
local Puget Sound business community.
Regards,
Michael Lloyd
"Peter" <peter12**@selin.com> wrote in message
news:39B998BE...@selin.com...
> This publication is the only one that promotes Harriet What?
>
> The fact maybe that it is indeed a good program. However, the question
will
> ALWAYS pop up at to why an American or Canadian had to go to a program so
> far away.
>
> Peter
>
Dear Mr. Moorehead:
I am happy to be of some assistance to you in making your choice on a MBA
program. By way of background, I have a honors BSc\MSc in chemistry from
the University of Washington in the early 1980's. Unfortunately, due to the
severe economic recession in the USA at the time and my unwillingness to
relocate from my Seattle home, I have not worked in the chemistry field
since doing a couple of years of oncology research. By a very circuitous
route involving healthcare experience, earning a paralegal degree, working
at a law firm, and being recruited from the firm by a major client, I have
worked in the medical malpractice field since 1986. I subsequently earned
two postgraduate diplomas in insurance and risk management and am now a
senior risk management consultant earning around $ 65K USD per year.
When I first began looking into MBA programs in the early 1990's, I first
looked at the two MBA programs in the Seattle area: the University of
Washington and Seattle University. The UW would not accept me since my
undergrad/graduate degrees were not in business administration (they have
subsequently changed that policy). Seattle University would have accepted
me into a special program designed for Boeing engineers and scientists.
However, much of my work is done in the evenings, lecturing at medical
meetings, hospital grand rounds and the like. I could not arrange my work
schedule to accommodate the fixed schedule of three evening classes per
week. In addition, the degree would have cost me over $ 25,000 to attend a
fourth-tier business school.
I began exploring the distance learning option and rapidly discovered that
at the time, there were a great many 'degree mill' programs out there. I
had no interest in a fake degree. As luck would have it, I was browsing one
day at a local bookshop and found a book written by Dr. John Bear on the
concept of distance learning. Dr. Bear is an expert in the field of
distance learning. I purchased some other books by him and found the HW
program based upon his recommendation. I did some additional research into
the program and signed up, taking my first exam in December 1992.
Now, to answer your questions:
1. I found the material to be very challenging, comprehensive and
difficult. My first exposure to most of the business material was at the
MBA level, given my previous educational experience in the physical
sciences.
2. I took my first exam in December 1992 and finished my last exam in
December 1999. However, your mileage may vary considerably. I took a
hiatus of a year and a half to earn my insurance and risk management
diplomas. Then my wife at the time experienced severe psychiatric problems
which took up a lot of time and effort and resulted in my failing three
exams the first time out. I subsequently passed the exams on the second
attempt. I was and am working an average of 45-50 hours per week and am a
single parent to boot. For the typical working adult, I think that taking
one or at the most two, classes per six month period is feasible.
3. I didn't really take the program for career progression. I took it more
for my own love of learning and personal interest in the subject. I have no
desire to work in the financial industry and since I just finished the
program, I am not sure how it will help me in the future. I am pretty sure
that it will not hurt.
4. Overall I would recommend this course with the following caveats: (a).
Most people in North America have never heard of the school. But then
again, most people in the UK or Europe have never heard of the University of
Washington, either. (b). I would emphasize that it is a very difficult
program. There are much easier MBA programs out there. (c). It requires a
great deal of self-discipline to study independently. Most people
apparently cannot do this and need a classroom setting. I gave up much of
my free time for seven years to finish the program. (d). The program
really provides no opportunities for networking. This may or may not be a
problem for the typical student. Since most of the students in the program
are working adults, networking is probably not a major issue.
5. Based on my review and research of other programs, the program is
clearly at least equivalent to, if not more challenging then other programs
with different admission requirements. In high school, I was a National
Merit scholar, and my SATs were around 1500 out of 1600. I had universities
all over the country trying to recruit me. After college, I took the MCAT,
LSAT and GRE, all with very high scores. With all due modesty, I could have
gotten into any professional or graduate program anywhere. And yet I was
astonished at the British model of higher education as being more difficult
then my experience with the American model of higher education. For my
whole educational career, I was used to getting high grades based on my high
effort. Yet for some of the MBA courses, I barely squeaked by, and some of
them I failed the first time out. I have seen the texts and curricula from
some other business schools, and the HW program is often more difficult and
comprehensive then others I have seen.
I do not regret my choice of HW for the MBA program. I am proud of earning
the degree there. I look forward to attending graduation this July in
Edinburgh.
In my view, anyone who thinks the program is a sinecure has clearly never
taken an exam there! People with concerns over accreditation generally do
not realize that accreditation is pretty much a North American phenomenon
and they do things differently in the UK. The UK educational establishment
clearly thinks that they do higher education far better than in North
America and who am I to argue with that?
For the slight chance that my musings on this topic may be of benefit to
others, I will be posting this message on the Watercooler. Please contact
me if I can be of any further help to you.
Regards,
Michael Lloyd
|-----Original Message-----
|From: Moorehead, Jason [mailto:Jas...@mrscompany.com]
|Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 07:20
|To: 'mgl...@msn.com'
|Subject: RE: Heriot Watt MBA
|
|
|Michael,
|
|I hope that you don't mind but I got your e-mail address from the
|"Watercooler" page. Although I am not in Seattle, (Toronto Canada) I am
|thinking of taking the course and was interested in getting
|your perspective
|on the course. I see a lot of controversy regarding the
|acceptance of the
|course and was interested in your opinion. If you have the
|time maybe you
|could answer a few questions for me:
|
|1. Did you find the course material thorough and challenging?
|2. How long did it take to complete the course (if you are finished)
|3. Has the programme helped your career?
|4. Overall would you recommend this course?
|5. I have an undergrad degree. Do you? Do you feel the course
|is equivalent
|to programmes that require a degree?
|
|I think I have researched this programme to death, however
|before I order my
|first course I would like to hear what graduates and students
|think overall
|of the education they received.
|
|Jason Moorehead
|Corporate Account Manager
|M.R.S. Company Ltd.
|
|http://www.mrscompany.com
|
|Phone: (905) 602 - 1700 Ext. 212
|
|
|
Lawrie Miller
program in particular, I couldn't agree more.
The issue is, however, the marginal utility of the H-W MBA when peddled
by a graduate in the United States, relative to that of the equivalent
American product, peddled by the same graduate.
Larry McQueary
>
>
> Larry McQueary wrote:
>
> > No, it will not ALWAYS come up. And on the few occasions that it does, it's
a
> > question that's easily answered and dismissed: convenience, quality, and
rigor.
> >
> > Larry
>
> With all due respect, why should I believe you if you claimed this? Of course
you
> will try to defend your credentials.
>
> Sorry, but my alarm bells would go off.
Well, the it's a good thing you're not in the position to hire anyone!
> Then if I actually researched it and discovered that:
> -anyone can get in.
But can "anyone" actually complete the degree? I think not.
> -all work is done in total isolation,
>
> I would discount its value even further.
I think that's pretty narrow-minded, don't you?
Larry
Peter
Lawrie Miller wrote:
> So far as the relative rigor of the UK system in general, and the H-W
> program in particular, I couldn't agree more.
>
The issue here is not the rigor of the program. I repeat: The issue here is not
the rigor of the program.
It may well be very rigorous. Indeed, we have some anecdotal evidence here to
suggest that this is the case.
However, what is challenging to one student may not be so challenging to another.
I'm sure that there are students who found their BA at Upper Iowa University
challenging.
But I can't help but think that maybe, just maybe, for a student who has the GPA
and GMAT to get into
Wharton or Stanford, the Heriot Watt program may not have been so challenging.
However, as I have stated, that is not the issue under discussion here.
What I am attempting to discuss is the marginal utility of a North American having
a correspondence MBA degree from halfway around the world. (Please Note this
IMPORTANT POINT: To show that I am being as unbiased as possible I will state that
if I were in Europe I would likewise be expressing concern over the optics of
someone getting a correspondence degree from, say, CSUDH.) The fact that an
American chose to bypass 2000 US universities and colleges to go to some obscure
Scottish institution sets off one's BS alarms. (And yes, it is a very obscure
school.)
"I went to Heriot Watt because it's program is better than the domestic
alternatives!"
"Sure bro, you went there because you couln't get into any of the 2000 schools at
home."
That's going to be the general perception whether it is articulated or not.
>
When I graduated back in Vancouver a class mate left for a masters at the LSE.
No one reacted to this with suspicion. It's a highly recognized institution world
wide
and he was entering a traditional program which required his presence on campus/
Correspondence schools are different. Tell someone that you're signing up for an
MBA by correspondence program from a school halfway around the world that allows
anyone in and they are bound to conclude that you have been turned down by all the
domestic schools.
>
> The issue is, however, the marginal utility of the H-W MBA when peddled
> by a graduate in the United States, relative to that of the equivalent
> American product, peddled by the same graduate.
>
Yes, it's the marginal uitility that's under discussion here and not the quality
of the program.
Peter
Larry McQueary
you to assess how many people share it. We all like to think that our opinions
are the majority's opinions.
If a distance MBA (trans-atlantic or not) sets off your BS alarm, then I'll just
have to make sure that I never apply to a job that you're hiring for, should you
ever become hiring manager for a position requiring an MBA!
Larry
"Peter" <peter12**@selin.com> wrote in message
news:39BA5696...@selin.com...
Ken Lewchuk
On the rigor of the program. This is anecdotal of course but associates of
mine from both Harvard and Olin (Wash U)... two top 20 schools... were both
impressed with the quality of the material and the rigor of the exams. A
student with an undergrad econ from Purdue left the program after having
failed the econ course twice (I have not confirmed but it appeared legit).
Some other associates I know who attest to the rigor of the program include
several professional accountants and a geologist who studied at the Colorado
school of mines (Harvard for rock guys).
Why would a person choose HW over the 2000 domestic alternatives ? That is
an easy question.
First, unless you are willing to put your career on hold and go full-time,
you are limited to local and distance learning alternatives... 2000 domestic
has suddenly become 150 domestic (illustrative only).
Distance Learning: If an individual's personal circumstances or learning
style lean away from a traditional MBA, then you enter the relm of the DL
MBA... part-time local programs have been eliminated and 150 is now 145.
Quality: Unlike the UK and Australia, the best US schools do not offer DL
MBA's. Domestic programs are now down to about 5 (less actually).
Cost: US schools can be prohibitly expensive. You probably have now
eliminated all the US schools.
HW offers a world class quality DL MBA at a reasonable cost... I am unaware
of any program in the US than can compete on flexibility (no residency),
quality (tops in the world) and cost (10K ish).
Correspondence... HW is not a correspondence school... EBS is not a
correspondence school... the EBS MBA is not a correspondence degree. The DL
program is the same as the full-time program... you just cut class.
HW does not allow everyone in. You cannot matriculate without an undergrad
or demonstrating the ability for graduate study... a fine distinction but
one that is not that uncommon even within the US.
Marginal utility. Again, from someone who actually entered the US job
market with HW at the top of the resume... some marketing is required but
the credential is so solid that it is rather simple to position it /
yourself appropriately. Would I prefer to have a traditional MBA from Duke
? Sure, but for many people in the US, HW (and other foreign schools) can
offer programs superior to US offerings with greater "marginal utility".
Note: HW is a good program but any suggestion that it is "the best" for
everyone is unintentional. There are other good programs which may be more
suited for a particular individual.
"Peter" <peter12**@selin.com> wrote in message
news:39BA5696...@selin.com...
Peter
Ken Lewchuk wrote:
> Peter,
>
> On the rigor of the program.
I really am not interested in the rigor of Heriot Watt's program.
My motivation is to find a fully DL or partially DL MBA which I will not need to
defend for the rest of my nor "market" as you like to put it.
>
>
> Why would a person choose HW over the 2000 domestic alternatives ? That is
> an easy question.
> First, unless you are willing to put your career on hold and go full-time,
> you are limited to local and distance learning alternatives... 2000 domestic
> has suddenly become 150 domestic (illustrative only).
> Distance Learning:
You have a point here. But the number of DL MBA programs is growing steadily now
in North America.
>
> HW offers a world class quality DL MBA at a reasonable cost...
I'm sorry but "world class" summons images in one's mind of Wharton, Stanford,
Harvard, Kellog, LSE, etc.
No one but a Heriot Watt grad would ever call its MBA "world class."
> I am unaware
> of any program in the US than can compete on flexibility (no residency),
> quality (tops in the world) and cost (10K ish).
>
> Correspondence... HW is not a correspondence school...
Someone else here just said that if a course or program can be completed in
total isolation without any interaction with either fellow students or faculty
it is a correspondence program and not a DL/DE program.
I just read an online account of one H-W's MBA grad who admits to never
interacting with other students and having minimal interaction with faculty
because they seemed impossible to get a hold of via nay method.
If it looks like a correspondence course, smells, like a correspondence course
and walks like a correspondence course....
Peter
>
Larry McQueary
[ snip ]
> Someone else here just said that if a course or program can be completed in
> total isolation without any interaction with either fellow students or
faculty
> it is a correspondence program and not a DL/DE program.
I don't know who said that, but distance learning is distance learning.
> I just read an online account of one H-W's MBA grad who admits to never
> interacting with other students and having minimal interaction with faculty
> because they seemed impossible to get a hold of via nay method.
And what problem do you have with that?
> If it looks like a correspondence course, smells, like a correspondence course
> and walks like a correspondence course....
.... then all that matters is whether you have the mettle to pass the rigorous
proctored examination. If you don't have the right stuff, haven't learned the
material, then it doesn't necessarily matter what format you took it in. Or,
more precisely, it won't matter to those who weren't in it for the human
interaction in the first place. Example: people who are in a business setting
every day seeing this stuff applied.
Larry
Ken Lewchuk
making ability (which I would deeply question from the postings you have
made). The UoToronto grad defends why he didn't choose Ivey, the Rice grad
why he didn't choose Stanford, and so on.
Peter, you know better. The Economist and Focus have considered it world
class... I am safe to assume that the editors of neither are HW grads.
If I take the full-time HW MBA in Edinburgh and skip all the lectures but 1
and write the exam... this is legitimate in your mind. But if I study the
same material in the US and write the same exam... the degree is inferior in
your mind.
What interesting logic you have.
By the way, according to your logic my wife is also pursuing her degree from
another "correspondence" school... the London School of Economics !
"Peter" <peter12**@selin.com> wrote in message
news:39BAB3DA...@selin.com...
uiupe...@hotmail.com
>
>Someone else here just said that if a course or program can be completed in
>total isolation without any interaction with either fellow students or faculty
>it is a correspondence program and not a DL/DE program.
A correspondence program (e.g. Upper Iowa Univ, CSUDH HUX, Texas Tech)
is one *type* of distance learning program. Where has this been
denied and by whom?
>I just read an online account of one H-W's MBA grad who admits to never
>interacting with other students and having minimal interaction with faculty
>because they seemed impossible to get a hold of via nay method.
>
>If it looks like a correspondence course, smells, like a correspondence course
>and walks like a correspondence course....
I've always considered the H-W program to be an "exam-based" program
rather than a "correspondence" program. If a prospective H-W student
already possesses the requisite knowledge, it's just a matter of
enrolling, shelling over the cash, and taking the tests. In theory, I
suppose it's possible to complete the entire H-W degree rather
quickly. IIRC, this has been done in the past.
Michael Barger
uiupe...@hotmail.com
Peter
Ken Lewchuk wrote:
> Get over it, you will always need to defend your degree and your decision
> making ability (which I would deeply question from the postings you have
> made). The UoToronto grad defends why he didn't choose Ivey, the Rice grad
> why he didn't choose Stanford, and so on.
>
Yes, there is a lot of academic snobbery. So why set yourself up for a lifetime
of explaining and defending?
>
> Peter, you know better. The Economist and Focus have considered it world
> class... I am safe to assume that the editors of neither are HW grads.
>
What is the "Focus"? Never heard of it.
>
> If I take the full-time HW MBA in Edinburgh and skip all the lectures but 1
> and write the exam... this is legitimate in your mind.
No it's not. A big part of an MBA education is participation in class and group
projects.
So, no I would not consider that you would have the same quality of education as
your peers who attended lectures, polished their debating skills in class, and
learned team work in group projects.
> But if I study the
> same material in the US and write the same exam... the degree is inferior in
> your mind.
> What interesting logic you have.
It's not my logic as I just pointed out.
>
> By the way, according to your logic my wife is also pursuing her degree from
> another "correspondence" school... the London School of Economics !
>
>
Well, hopefully for her it's not another Robinson Crusoe affair like the Heriot
Watt program.
Peter
Peter
Larry McQueary wrote:
> > Someone else here just said that if a course or program can be completed in
> > total isolation without any interaction with either fellow students or
> faculty
> > it is a correspondence program and not a DL/DE program.
>
> I don't know who said that, but distance learning is distance learning.
>
So, in other words this newsgroup should be renamed alt.education.correspondence?
Because if Harriet What is not a correspondence program but a DL/DE program like
Fuqua, Syracuse, Colorado, Athabasca, Maryland, Royal Roads, etc, then you may as
well call them all "correspondence programs".
I hate to differ but I think that there is a big difference between a program which
entails heavy doses of ongoing interaction between class mates and their
teachers--even if it's mostly via email and Lotus Notes--and the Robinson Crusoe
method of study employed by Heriot Watt.
Peter
Peter
uiupe...@hotmail.com wrote:
> If a prospective H-W student
> already possesses the requisite knowledge, it's just a matter of
> enrolling, shelling over the cash, and taking the tests. In theory, I
> suppose it's possible to complete the entire H-W degree rather
> quickly. IIRC, this has been done in the past.
>
> Michael Barger
> uiupe...@hotmail.com
The Harriet What? should just grant degrees for one's life experiences.
To hell with the pretense of requiring actual academic effort.
If we actually had any real academics here they would be laughing themselves silly
reading what some here consider to be bona fide university educations.
Peter
Kevin Stewart
uiupe...@hotmail.com wrote in message
<39bacc3...@news.cnetech.com>...
snipped
If a prospective H-W student
>already possesses the requisite knowledge, it's just a matter of
>enrolling, shelling over the cash, and taking the tests. In theory, I
>suppose it's possible to complete the entire H-W degree rather
>quickly. IIRC, this has been done in the past.
7 mos. is the record, iirc.
And what would this person be paying for? Surely not an "education".
He would be doing what anyone can do at several web-based churches: spending
the loot for what s/he can/has obtained for free. Make that "for a
certificate of what s/he . . . ". What is the significance of GAAP/a royal
charter/RA in such a scenario -- or for the student who must struggle with
the material?
I could go to the nearest Sylvan Center and take a test for the series _#_
credential (for securities). My learning the material comes from somewhere
else, but so what? Why not call this function of the Sylvan Learning Centers
"Sylvan College of [city]"?
Kevin
snipped
Steve Levicoff
> Get over it, you will always need to defend your degree and your decision
> making ability (which I would deeply question from the postings you have
> made). The UoToronto grad defends why he didn't choose Ivey, the Rice grad
> why he didn't choose Stanford, and so on.
What's up, Ken? Are you trying to become as bitchy as me?
> Peter, you know better. The Economist and Focus have considered it world
> class... I am safe to assume that the editors of neither are HW grads.
I have not heard of Focus (remember, I don't particularly bother with
keeping up to date on business-related degrees), but let's see if I have
this straight . . .
The Economist considers Heriot-Watt "world class," whatever that is.
The Economist is published by Pearson (which, as newsgroup regulars are
aware, was John Bear's employer for a short time), and Heriot-Watt's MBA
courses are marketed by - why, Pearson!
How conveeeeeeeeeeeeenient, Ken.
--
,-~~-.___.
/ | ' \
( ) 0
\_/-, ,----'
==== //
/ \-'~; /~~~(O)
/ __/~| / |
=( _____| (_________|
------------------------------
Steve Levicoff
levi...@ix.netcom.com
http://levicoff.tripod.com
------------------------------
Peter
Kevin Stewart wrote:
> uiupe...@hotmail.com wrote in message
> <39bacc3...@news.cnetech.com>...
>
> snipped
>
> If a prospective H-W student
> >already possesses the requisite knowledge, it's just a matter of
> >enrolling, shelling over the cash, and taking the tests. In theory, I
> >suppose it's possible to complete the entire H-W degree rather
> >quickly. IIRC, this has been done in the past.
>
> 7 mos. is the record, iirc.
>
> And what would this person be paying for? Surely not an "education".
>
> He would be doing what anyone can do at several web-based churches: spending
> the loot for what s/he can/has obtained for free. Make that "for a
> certificate of what s/he . . . ". What is the significance of GAAP/a royal
> charter/RA in such a scenario -- or for the student who must struggle with
> the material?
>
I just want to add that if an alleged graduate level program's courses can all
be passed by someone who just shows up for the final exam then we are talking
about a pretty pathetic program.
I have a lot of busines experience. Over twenty years worth. I keep up to date
in my field. Yet I doubt very much that I could ace any course final in a real
MBA program.
Perhaps Heriot Watt isn't so rigorous after all?
Peter
Peter
Steve Levicoff wrote:
> The Economist considers Heriot-Watt "world class," whatever that is.
>
> The Economist is published by Pearson (which, as newsgroup regulars are
> aware, was John Bear's employer for a short time), and Heriot-Watt's MBA
> courses are marketed by - why, Pearson!
>
> How conveeeeeeeeeeeeenient, Ken.
>
> -
Ha! You just made me spray my keyboard with a mouthful of water.
Peter
Dan Snelson
Why don't you check out this site if you think they are NOT very rigorous. Previous exams can be found (Yes they do
change them).
You might also try the discussion forum which is very active and includes professors posting. It sure looks like
students get together on line and when possible face to face.
Dan Snelson
"Peter" <peter12**@selin.com> wrote in message news:39BADB16...@selin.com...
uiupe...@hotmail.com
>be passed by someone who just shows up for the final exam then we are talking
>about a pretty pathetic program.
>
>I have a lot of busines experience. Over twenty years worth. I keep up to date
>in my field. Yet I doubt very much that I could ace any course final in a real
>MBA program.
>
>Perhaps Heriot Watt isn't so rigorous after all?
This is one hypothesis that you can actually test. Below, you'll find
a link to a site that contains copies of past H-W exams. Are they
rigorous? I think so. Judge for yourself.
Michael Barger
uupe...@hotmail.com
Larry McQueary
[ snip ]
> No it's not. A big part of an MBA education is participation in class and
group
> projects.
> So, no I would not consider that you would have the same quality of education
as
> your peers who attended lectures, polished their debating skills in class, and
> learned team work in group projects.
And what of people who already have excellent debating and teamwork skills?
Peter, I hate to say it, but you remind me of a gentleman named Stan who came
visiting us a year or more ago who (oddly enough) used the same regional ISP
that you do, and attempted to cloak his email address in the same way that you
do. He used all the same arguments against H-W and other international schools.
Could it be.....? I mean -- really? Stan, baby, we missed you!
Larry
Larry McQueary
Steve L.:
[ snip ]
> Ha! You just made me spray my keyboard with a mouthful of water.
>
> Peter
Time to find a new enema cleanup routine, Peter!
<sorry, and yes, I deserve being flamed for this little quip>
Larry
Kevin Stewart
Larry McQueary wrote in message ...
snipped
>Time to find a new enema cleanup routine, Peter!
So you're sure this is "Stan" now.
Wasn't "Stan" considered part of the Goldblatt continuum among some of those
who believe there is such a thing?
Kevin
Oh, yeah, the flame. Uhhhh. . . the army wears your mothers boots! (It's
late, ok?)
Peter
Larry McQueary wrote:
> "Peter" <peter12**@selin.com> wrote in message
> news:39BAD2ED...@selin.com...
> [ snip ]
>
> > No it's not. A big part of an MBA education is participation in class and
> group
> > projects.
> > So, no I would not consider that you would have the same quality of education
> as
> > your peers who attended lectures, polished their debating skills in class, and
> > learned team work in group projects.
>
> And what of people who already have excellent debating and teamwork skills?
>
You can always learn something new. You just have to be alert.
If your attitude is just give me the goddam diploma, I'm not interested in actually
learning anything than
go with all the cheesy equivalency exams for credit at some fifth tier institutions.
Peter
Peter
Dan Snelson wrote:
> http://watercooler.homepage.com/
>
> Why don't you check out this site if you think they are NOT very rigorous. Previous exams can be found (Yes they do
> change them).
> You might also try the discussion forum which is very active and includes professors posting. It sure looks like
> students get together on line and when possible face to face.
>
> Dan Snelson
>
I checked a few out. First off, if I tried to take these exams right now, fifteen years after my BBA, I might not do so
good.
Hell, I might even fail. However, with a bit of time to refresh my memory I am sure that I would have no difficulty in
aceing the exam. I didn't see anything in the Finance or Org Behaviour exams that i didn't see in my fourth year
courses.
Peter
Lawrie Miller
troll.
Lawrie Miller
Kevin Stewart wrote:
>
> Larry McQueary wrote in message ...
>
> >Time to find a new enema cleanup routine, Peter!
>
> Oh, yeah, the flame. Uhhhh. . . the army wears your mothers boots!
<shaking head>
Larry, Kevin . . . can't we all just, get along?
<sensitive, pained expression>
Now, let's all hold hands and sing:
Kum ba yah, My Lord, Kum ba yah . . .
Lawrie Miller
Peter wrote:
>
> >
>
> I checked a few out. First off, if I tried to take these exams right now, fifteen years after my BBA, I might not do so
> good.
> Hell, I might even fail. However, with a bit of time to refresh my memory I am sure that I would have no difficulty in
> aceing the exam.
All sound and fury signifying nothing.
Peter
Lawrie Miller wrote:
> Mmm, had me fooled at the start of this thread. It appears Peter is a
> troll.
>
>
Now Lawrie, I am not a troll. Unless you are like Larry McQ who starts screaming "troll!"
anytime someone doesn't swallow the bullshit that he hands out by the wheelbarrel full.
Peter
Peter
Larry McQueary wrote:
>
> Peter, I hate to say it, but you remind me of a gentleman named Stan who came
> visiting us a year or more ago who (oddly enough) used the same regional ISP
> that you do, and attempted to cloak his email address in the same way that you
> do. He used all the same arguments against H-W and other international schools.
> Could it be.....? I mean -- really? Stan, baby, we missed you!
>
> Larry
You're as sharp as a tack Larry. With your acute paranoia you'd be right at home in
alt.conspiracy.
I was wondering how long it would take you to see it was me. Lord, I was shoveling
out clues for nearly two whole weeks!
I live in the PNW. I'm a Canadian who graduated from SFU. I'm self-employed. And on
and on.
For anyone new here let me confess to my Horrible Crimes in usenet:
1. Since I don't like my mailbox getting flooded with spam, and I do like my
privacy, I mangled my identity. I just picked a name out of the air.
2. However, I always stuck to just one identity.
3. I also just asked questions and didn't readily accept simplistic pat answers:
"Duh, if the Economist has a listing for it, it must be good." Yeah right.
So what happened? Well, Mr. "simplistic pat answers" McQueary didn't like that I
wasn't swallowing his simplistic pat answers hook, line, and sinker, so he decided
to to try and undermine my credibility because I wasn't willing to reveal my true
identity along with my SS and DL numbers.
When I stubbornly refused old Larry got quite, quite irate.
Now I could understand Larry's demands if I had been making any sort of claims about
my credentials as an authority on DL or various institutions, but I wasn't. All
along I have been a mid-career pro asking questions in order to be able to make the
best choice possible regarding an MBA for a very complicated life.
Yes, I did check out Heriot Watt at first because, as I said yesterday, I was out of
touch after 15 years with what was required to gain admission into an MBA program.
So I started looking at Heriot Watt thinking that I might have to compromise and set
my sights lower if I was going to get an MBA. Then, thankfully, I started asking
colleagues (just like a number of people here did) about what their gut reaction was
to a "correspondence MBA" from an unknown (in North America) Scottish university.
They shook their heads and either called me an idiot (close friends) or were more
tactfully (colleagues) in getting the same message across.
With abit more digging and patience (meaning that the longer I waited, the more
universities offered DL MBAs), I discovered that there were many DL MBAs with far
more utility as Lawrie puts it for a Canadian or American.
Now check my first posts here as Peter (my real name, are you getting happier,
Larry?), I came back here after a long period away from aed to talk about RRU and
AU. All was fine until a Heriot Watt grad jumps and tells me that my two picks are
inferior and that I should instead enroll in a "world class" program like Harriet
What? (Steve, I agree with you: what the fuck does "world class" mean"? Well you
answered it by explaining the same corporation that markets H-W's MBA also publishes
The Economist.)
Now watch Larry's response to this post for the true measure of the man. He won't be
able to stick to the discussion at hand. Rather he will as before start demanding
that I fax him a copy of my WA State Driver's License to prove my identity to him.
Larry, you can blow it out your ass as before. I ran circles around you then and I
will run circles around you again if you push me into it.
However, I would prefer to exhange info here with other mid-career pros looking at
various p/t or DL MBA programs with utility in the United States--not Scotland or
Uzbekhistan or Singapore.
Peter