UNESCO & Berne University
nort...@my-deja.com
University International Graduate School will be listed in the next
addition of UNESCO's Handbook.
Based on what has been said about GAAP I am assuming that in some sense
at least this makes Berne University a viable option for some.
Especially since it is approved for federal aid and veteran's
benefits.
I would especially like to hear from Dr. Bear as to what he makes of
this in terms of acceptability of Berne's degrees based on the UNESCO
listing.
Note: Thanks in advance for any input Dr. B.
North
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Chip
mill, and, by all indications, is. However, since licensure in St. Kitts
(where Berne rents a few hotel rooms for a month or so once a year) is
incredibly lax, Berne may have found a temporary loophole.
My suspicion that the Berne situation will be like the Greenwich
situation... it will cause great consternation, followed by a hurried
closing of the loopholes that allow it a temporary form of undeserved
legitimacy.
And a great deal of educating needs to happen about the places like St.
Kitts, Nevis, Norfolk Islands, etc. to accreditors, graduate admissions
people, employers, etc. If enough people get the word that a degree
from a school like Berne is worthless, the schools will have a harder
and harder time attracting students... and will hopefully eventually
fail.
Tom C. Head
<ch...@remove.mindspring.this.com> wrote:
> > Based on information I have (not from Berne) it appears that Berne
> > University International Graduate School will be listed in the next
> > addition of UNESCO's Handbook.
If this is true, then two things are warranted, I think: (a) a closer
look at Berne and, more importantly, (b) a closer look at UNESCO.
But I'll give UNESCO the benefit of the doubt until I hear it from the
proverbial horse's mouth. After all, we all had reason to be certain
that the DETC would accredit LaSalle earlier this year -- and they
didn't.
One thing to it: If UNESCO does list Berne, then Steve was right all
along about UNESCO being no sure thing (although I still think he's
wrong about MIGS). Either that, or Berne actually is solid. If the
UNESCO lists Berne, it will have to be one or the other.
Peace,
TH
rab...@my-deja.com
> If enough people get the word that a degree
> from a school like Berne is worthless, the
> schools will have a harder
> and harder time attracting students... and
> will hopefully eventually fail.
Or get better. This group has seen me slam Harcourt and CCHS. But is
there any chance I can put them out of business? Probably not. So my
sincere hope is that they realize what scumbags and sleazeballs they
are now, and change their ways for a better DE world.
The same could be true of other borderline legitimate schools.
(Obviously some people, like Mr. Columbia State/Perma-Derm/Permanetics
Ronald Dante Pellar, never seem to understand that what they do is
wrong, and will most likely never change for the better. So we send
people like that to little iron cages to stop them from further
wrongdoings.)
-Rab
nort...@my-deja.com
I've wondered about Berne U in terms of its actual programs. I realize
that it is accredited by a small island, and in the past claimed
accreditation from a couple of less than wonderful agencies (not a good
thing).
However, what is to say that the actual programs themselves are not
quality programs? I do not have the skill others do (ie Steve & John)
in analyzing academic programs.
On the surface though, you have an accredited University, recognized by
UNESCO, with faculty with accredited terminal degrees, and a residency
not unlike Capella & Walden (held on someone else's campus).
North
In article <201020002052352460%he...@netdoor.com>,
Bill Dayson
> Based on information I have (not from Berne)
> it appears that Berne University International
> Graduate School will be listed in the next
> addition of UNESCO's Handbook.
I don't know about that, but I wouldn't be surprised. Nobody on this
newsgroup has ever been able to give any insight into the criteria that
the UNESCO Handbook uses for inclusion and exclusion. My guess has been
that the editors defer to national educational authorities except in
those cases where their own guts tell them different. That's probably
why Berne has not been included up till now. But a little political
pressure will do wonders. St. Kitts and Nevis is a soverign nation, and
the editors may have been told by UNESCO not to second guess St. Kitts'
education minister.
> Based on what has been said about GAAP I
> am assuming that in some sense at least this
> makes Berne University a viable option for
> some. Especially since it is approved for
> federal aid and veteran's benefits.
I suppose so. Assuming that GAAP remains unaltered. The professional
organization of registrars and admissions officers that evolved GAAP as
a rule of thumb in evaluating applicants will almost certainly respond
to this development in some way. Not doing so leaves open a glaring
loophole. GAAP may be substantially reworked.
I guess a lot of this depends on how slavishly universities and private
employers follow GAAP. My unexpert impression is that it has lots of
influence in undergraduate evaluations in university admissions offices,
and less and less influence as you move out from there. A departmental
graduate admissions committee may not care very much if Berne is in the
UNESCO Handbook if they recognize the school as a mill.
And I wonder how many private sector hiring officers even use GAAP. As I
understand it, many are clueless about accreditation, which is why the
degree mills have a market. While the better informed may know about
Berne and feel no obligation to accept it just because GAAP does. So
this Berne development would only effect those employers who know enough
to consult the Handbook but not enough to recognize Berne. Which may or
may not be a large number, I don't know.
I can see some unpleasant international repurcussions from this. If the
Handbook gets the reputation for being unreliable in the case of
small-country and "third world" schools, and since GAAP is just a rule
of thumb that can be improvised around and is not a law, I might expect
to see greater discrimination against all universities in small poor
countries. Hell, if St. Kitts harbors mills, why take a chance on
Antigua? What the hell is this University of Belize? For that matter,
what the hell is Belize? Just toss the application in the trash and
don't take a chance.
Bill Dayson
> And a great deal of educating needs to
> happen about the places like St. Kitts, Nevis,
> Norfolk Islands, etc. to accreditors, graduate
> admissions people, employers, etc.
The problem I see with that is that it will be impossible to educate
every admissions person or employer about every mill. The mills appear
and mutate too fast for that to work.
What will happen is that schools and employers will become aware both
that the UNESCO Handbook is not reliable and that degree mills are apt
to have local government recognition in small jurisdictions.
So the natural result will be a growing hesitancy to accept any
university qualifications from universities in small (especially poor
"third world") countries. If it can happen in St. Kitts, it may be
happening next door in Barbados, right? Consulting the UNESCO Handbook
won't help. So why take a chance? Throw the Barbadian application in the
trash.
Which will obviously hurt all the fine legitimate schools in those kind
of places.
I think that this is another argument for some kind of international
equivalent of an American regional accreditor. Some way that the
legitimate universities in an entire region can come together to
exercise some quality assurance through peer review.
The UNESCO Handbook was and is a very poor alternative. It does not
investigate each university it lists. It does not carry out site visits.
Instead it is dependent on what it is told by the 200+ national
educational authorities around the world. Government authorities which
may have no expertese in higher education at all, or which may be
subject to all sorts of local political pressure and corruption.
What is needed are organizations composed of universities of
unquestioned quality, which have both the expertese and the means to
carry out quality assessments of the universities in their areas.
Steve Levicoff
> > Based on information I have (not from Berne)
> > it appears that Berne University International
> > Graduate School will be listed in the next
> > addition of UNESCO's Handbook.
>
> newsgroup has ever been able to give any insight into the criteria that
> the UNESCO Handbook uses for inclusion and exclusion. My guess has been
> that the editors defer to national educational authorities except in
> those cases where their own guts tell them different. That's probably
> why Berne has not been included up till now. But a little political
> pressure will do wonders. St. Kitts and Nevis is a soverign nation, and
> the editors may have been told by UNESCO not to second guess St. Kitts'
> education minister.
If y'all haven't figured it out yet, I'm just waiting this one out. If
and when Berne is listed in UNESCO, *then* I will laugh my . . . well,
you know.
> > Based on what has been said about GAAP I
> > am assuming that in some sense at least this
> > makes Berne University a viable option for
> > some. Especially since it is approved for
> > federal aid and veteran's benefits.
>
> I suppose so. Assuming that GAAP remains unaltered. The professional
> organization of registrars and admissions officers that evolved GAAP as
> a rule of thumb in evaluating applicants will almost certainly respond
> to this development in some way. Not doing so leaves open a glaring
> loophole. GAAP may be substantially reworked.
>
> I guess a lot of this depends on how slavishly universities and private
> employers follow GAAP. My unexpert impression is that it has lots of
> influence in undergraduate evaluations in university admissions offices,
> and less and less influence as you move out from there. A departmental
> graduate admissions committee may not care very much if Berne is in the
> UNESCO Handbook if they recognize the school as a mill.
>
> And I wonder how many private sector hiring officers even use GAAP. As I
> understand it, many are clueless about accreditation, which is why the
> degree mills have a market. While the better informed may know about
> Berne and feel no obligation to accept it just because GAAP does. So
> this Berne development would only effect those employers who know enough
> to consult the Handbook but not enough to recognize Berne. Which may or
> may not be a large number, I don't know.
I think that one has to remember that Berne is not a foreign university
per se, but is run from a small second-floor office in New Hampshire by
Dr. Berne himself. Does this mean that if I start a degree mill in a
post office box in Louisiana (where I actually run it from my home), for
example, but hold meetings at a hotel (or rent a campus facility) in,
say, Central America, I can call my school a Central American
university? Hardly, methinks.
> I can see some unpleasant international repurcussions from this. If the
> Handbook gets the reputation for being unreliable in the case of
> small-country and "third world" schools, and since GAAP is just a rule
> of thumb that can be improvised around and is not a law, I might expect
> to see greater discrimination against all universities in small poor
> countries. Hell, if St. Kitts harbors mills, why take a chance on
> Antigua? What the hell is this University of Belize? For that matter,
> what the hell is Belize? Just toss the application in the trash and
> don't take a chance.
This goes back to the same argument made by Peter (of Canada) recently,
and one that I have restated here several times over the years: Why
would an American student hold a foreign degree for which he or she has
never done a residency, especially if that degree came from a second or
third-world country? Even if I saw a resume that listed a degree from a
first-world country and knew the person had not gone there, I'd toss
that resume into the circular file.
--
,-~~-.___.
/ | ' \
( ) 0
\_/-, ,----'
==== //
/ \-'~; /~~~(O)
/ __/~| / |
=( _____| (_________|
------------------------------
Steve Levicoff
levi...@ix.netcom.com
http://levicoff.tripod.com
------------------------------
Bill Dayson
> One thing to it: If UNESCO does list Berne,
> then Steve was right all along about
> UNESCO being no sure thing (although I still
> think he's wrong about MIGS).
I should point out that Steve has not been the only one on this
newsgroup to question the criteria that the UNESCO Handbook uses to
decide on inclusion and exclusion. A number of us have raised that
question.
> Either that, or Berne actually is solid. If the
> UNESCO lists Berne, it will have to be one or
> the other.
I think that you need to accept the UNESCO Handbook for what it is. It
is a listing of those universities that have whatever recognition is
considered appropriate in their local juridictions.
The UNESCO Handbook is not an accreditor. It makes no quality
assessments of its own as far as I can see, having no world-wide
evaluative staff or the ability to make international site visits. It
simply reports on the decisions of its UNESCO members.
My guess is that the editors have excluded Berne up till now because
they know what it is. But assuming North's news is correct, they
probably have come under some pressure from UNESCO not to slight a
member state.
Which raises a question: Is this inclusion of Berne in the upcoming
edition, assuming it actually happens, an isolated occurance? Or does it
represent a change in editorial policy? Are there a number of similar
mills in various other obscure jurisdictions that will also be added? It
will be interesting to look closely at the upcoming edition to see what
other surprises it holds.
Karlos Al Lacaye
cis...@webtv.net says...
(snip)
>What the hell is this University of Belize?
The University of Belize is a new comglomeration of instituions now comprising
the University College of Belize, the Belize College of Agriculture, the Belize
School of Nursing, the Belize Teachers Training College, and the Belize
Technical College.
>For that matter,
>what the hell is Belize?
Belize (Spanish Belice) is a country located on the northeast coast of Central
America. With an area of 8,867 square miles (22,965 square km), it is the
smallest nation, after El Salvador, on the mainland of the Americas, and it is
also the least populous. To the north and nortwest, it is bounded by Mexico, to
the west and south by Guatemala, and to the east by the Caribbean Sea, on which
it has a 174-mile (280-km) coastline. Belize, which was known as British
Honduras until 1973, was the last British colony on the American mainland. It
achieved independence on September 21, 1981, but it remains a member of the
Commonwealth. After Belize City was ravaged by a hurricane in 1961, a new
capital, called Belmopan, was built inland about 50 miles (80 km) to the west;
nevertheless, Belize City remains the nation's commercial centre and largest
town.
I hope this helps.
Best wishes,
Karlos Alberto Lacaye
(who has enjoyed his trips to Belize and who has visited the University College
of Belize/University of Belize)
caballe...@myremarq.com
DWC
a solid, reputable program? The curriculm isn't much, if any different
than Capella, Walden, and other respected accredited institutions. All
Berne instuctors have accredited doctorates. I have inquired as to the
flexiblity of the summer residency only to be told that the only option
was to spend two 2 week sessions vs. one 4 week session. A mill
wouldn't have cared. In reality a mill would have waived the residency
entirely in an effort to get my money. The degrees also have changed
to accommodate accreditation standards. Another example is; very
shortly after the tuition went up (days) I asked if I could fall under
the old tuition of $9600 vs. $12000, They said NO! $9600 is more than
$0.00. This proved to me that Berne is not hurting for students nor are
they in it for just money. A mill would have gladly taken my money.
I haven't enrolled in Berne and doubt very seriously that I will but I
have been impressed with their actions and inactions. The worst thing
Berne has ever done in my opinion is claiming accreditation from The
international Assoc. of Universities and Colleges as well as the World
Assoc. of Universities and Colleges. It may take Berne ten more years
to get beyond that.
In article <8sqmnl$3q8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
--
DWC
John Bear
actual application used by schools to apply for membership in the
International Association of Universities. I believe that IAU members gets
one listed in the UNESCO handbook
http://www.unesco.org/iau/memform.html
Looking at the form, it is clear that much depends on (a) what the schools
have to say, and (b) whether UNESCO accepts it at face value or does its
own further investigation. I don't know this, but will certainly be trying
to find out. It may well be that UNESCO hasn't kept up with the times,
since until quite recently, they did not need to think about St. Kittsian,
Barbudan, Norfolkian, or Turks and Caicosian accreditation.
Very conflicting preliminary data from my registrars survey: of 177
registrars with an opinion, 51 said they usually accept UNESCO in deciding
whether to accept a degree or credit transfer, 36 said sometimes, 30 said
occasionally, and 57 said generally they don't rely on it. And, perhaps
most significantly (so far)., 150 others said their school has no policy on
UNESCO, or if does, they are not aware of it.
For comparison, 309 said that a regionally accredited residential degree
was usually acceptable, 18 said sometimes, and no one said unacceptable.
John Bear
www.degree.net
Bill Dayson wrote:
> Chip writes:
>
> > And a great deal of educating needs to
> > happen about the places like St. Kitts, Nevis,
> > Norfolk Islands, etc. to accreditors, graduate
> > admissions people, employers, etc.
>
lewchuk
"Steve Levicoff" <levi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:39F1CFB9...@ix.netcom.com...
> Bill Dayson wrote, in response to North:
>
> > > it appears that Berne University International
> > > Graduate School will be listed in the next
> > > addition of UNESCO's Handbook.
> >
> > newsgroup has ever been able to give any insight into the criteria that
> > the UNESCO Handbook uses for inclusion and exclusion. My guess has been
> > that the editors defer to national educational authorities except in
> > those cases where their own guts tell them different. That's probably
> > why Berne has not been included up till now. But a little political
> > pressure will do wonders. St. Kitts and Nevis is a soverign nation, and
> > the editors may have been told by UNESCO not to second guess St. Kitts'
> > education minister.
>
> If y'all haven't figured it out yet, I'm just waiting this one out. If
> and when Berne is listed in UNESCO, *then* I will laugh my . . . well,
> you know.
>
> > > am assuming that in some sense at least this
> > > makes Berne University a viable option for
> > > some. Especially since it is approved for
> > > federal aid and veteran's benefits.
> >
Since you asked...
Opportunity... many foreign schools provide opportunities unavailable in the
US
Quality... some foreign schools / programs are of much higher quality than
that which is available in the US
Price... some foreign schools are considerably less expensive than US
programs
especially if that degree came from a second or
> third-world country?
True, because you cannot rely on the strength and reputation of the British
/ commonwealth education tradition
Even if I saw a resume that listed a degree from a
> first-world country and knew the person had not gone there, I'd toss
> that resume into the circular file.
That is your perogative of course, but is contrary to the concept of DL
(that you can develop the skills, knowledge and abilities without "going
there") as well as eliminating some pretty good schools / programs like your
own TESC and CSDH.
Steve Levicoff
> > Even if I saw a resume that listed a degree from a
> > first-world country and knew the person had not gone
> > there, I'd toss that resume into the circular file.
>
> That is your perogative of course, but is contrary to the concept of DL
> (that you can develop the skills, knowledge and abilities without "going
> there") as well as eliminating some pretty good schools / programs like your
> own TESC and CSDH.
Lest there be a misconception that I am against foreign degrees, whether
from first-world or second/third-world countries, I do not doubt that
there are some excellent programs in nations other than the U.S. Nor
have I stated that one need "go to" a school in order to receive a
credible degree, at least at the undergraduate level. (Or graduate, for
that matter. While I have always been in favor of residency experiences
in a graduate program, none of my Union residencies were held at Union.
In fact, other than visiting TUI before enrolling, I never "went there"
during my Ph.D. program. Rather, my residencies were held in New York,
Maryland, and Virginia.)
The problem, as I see it, is that without checking into a program
personally, physically, and in detail, it is difficult to tell whether
that program is credible in the first place. There has been much
discussion here, for example, about Berne University, which I maintain
is a degree mill. A couple of people are sufficiently impressed with it
despite its history as a degree mill. But I suggest that they simply
have no idea whether the program is credible or not. (In fact, I would
suggest that they have their heads up their asses if they haven't
checked the program out further than looking at their web site.) Ditto
MIGS . . . If you have not actually visited MIGS or CEU and are relying
solely on their web site, you are bound to be screwed, period.
Incidentally, Ken, the phrase "programs like your own TESC and CSDH" is
not accurate. I graduated from TESC, Norwich, and Union. (Tom Head is
the newsgroup regular who is in CSUDH.) But I visited each one *before*
I enrolled. Because unless you are familiar with a college or
university which you are considering, and whether it is in the U.S. or
elsewhere, *how* do you know whether it is a credible school or not?
Let's go back to Berne, for example. They have an address in New
Hampshire, at which they have been based for several years. Suppose you
enrolled at Berne in the days prior to their emphasizing their St.
Kitts/Nevis location (which, they acknowledge, is in rented space at
another college). How would you have known that they were located in
nothing but a small office? I would no more register for Berne without
a site visit than I would have enrolled at Norwich, which has a major
campus (actually, two campuses - Northfield and Montpelier - plus a
satelite in Brattleboro). I would not have enrolled in TESC if I had
not seen their physical plant, lest they turn out to have a facility
similar to Berne's joke of an office.
In short, the rip-offs faaaaaaaaaaaaar outnumber the legit schools. And
if someone enrolls in a mill without having gone past their initial
impressions orthe hype on their web site in advance, they deserve what
they get.
nort...@my-deja.com
island (not necessarily impressive) and in the past claimed
accreditation from a couple of unrecognized accreditors (no doubt a
poor decision).
However, no one has presented any evidence that their course
requirements or materials are substandard.
What you end up with is an "accredited school", which now meets GAAP,
with faculty with accredited degrees, and a program not unlike any
number of other programs throughout the world.
Yes, they rent a campus for residency (not unlike Capella & Walden) and
as Steve points out if you visted their New Hampshire office you would
find...an office (again not unlike Capella & Walden - although without
doubt I can imagine it is less impressive).
They have been called a mill in the past but that is simply a name
someone chose to call it, and as Dr. Bear has posted the Union
Institute was called a mill at one point, TGSA was almost called that
in Minn., etc.
So, what makes Berne University a mill in terms of actual academic
quality? No one is likely to claim it is Harvard but what makes it any
different than any other generic foreign accredited GAAP institution
(eg. MIGS)? What makes it not a foreign accredited equivalent of TGSA
or Walden (ie a poor man's Walden or Capella)?
North (who is not enrolled or associated with Berne in any
manner)
In article <8sssn5$kur$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> --
> DWC
Tom C. Head
> DWC has a legitimate question. Yes Berne is accredited by a small
> island (not necessarily impressive) and in the past claimed
> accreditation from a couple of unrecognized accreditors (no doubt a
> poor decision).
*snip*
> So, what makes Berne University a mill in terms of actual academic
> quality? No one is likely to claim it is Harvard but what makes it any
> different than any other generic foreign accredited GAAP institution
> (eg. MIGS)? What makes it not a foreign accredited equivalent of TGSA
> or Walden (ie a poor man's Walden or Capella)?
A legitimate question indeed, and I really have no answer. I requested
material from Berne several years ago and wasn't impressed, but can't
remember why. Maybe it's time to request a new catalog and give these
folks a twice-over.
Peace,
TH
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
: lewchuk wrote:
: Lest there be a misconception that I am against foreign degrees, whether
: from first-world or second/third-world countries, I do not doubt that
: there are some excellent programs in nations other than the U.S. Nor
: have I stated that one need "go to" a school in order to receive a
: credible degree, at least at the undergraduate level. (Or graduate, for
: that matter.
I think one should at least meet (face-to-face) some of the people one is
working with.
: While I have always been in favor of residency experiences
: in a graduate program, none of my Union residencies were held at Union.
: In fact, other than visiting TUI before enrolling, I never "went there"
: during my Ph.D. program. Rather, my residencies were held in New York,
: Maryland, and Virginia.)
If I were attending Union (and I'm considering it), I'd want to go for at
least one residency on the main campus (preferably the first residency).
: Incidentally, Ken, the phrase "programs like your own TESC and CSDH" is
: not accurate. I graduated from TESC, Norwich, and Union. (Tom Head is
: the newsgroup regular who is in CSUDH.) But I visited each one *before*
: I enrolled. Because unless you are familiar with a college or
: university which you are considering, and whether it is in the U.S. or
: elsewhere, *how* do you know whether it is a credible school or not?
I am currently applying to a school that I've never seen. However, people
I know *have* seen it and I trust them quite enough. It certainly isn't
a degree mill.
I was accepted to Nova without having been there. That said, I *had* lived
in Ft. Lauderdale and, while living there, had regularly encountered Nova
students (Law, mostly). Thus, I felt that it was legit. I realized, when
I went to the campus, that I had in fact been there before while living
there, but their programs didn't fit my needs at the time. Now they don't
require the training session I attended. Funny thing, that's been the single
most valuable part of my education at Nova!
: I would no more register for Berne without
: a site visit than I would have enrolled at Norwich, which has a major
: campus (actually, two campuses - Northfield and Montpelier - plus a
: satelite in Brattleboro). I would not have enrolled in TESC if I had
: not seen their physical plant, lest they turn out to have a facility
: similar to Berne's joke of an office.
I did enroll in Norwich after seeing the campus on one of their "Discover"
days I'm pretty sure. In any case, before I started I had been to the campus
at least once.
--
_Deirdre * http://www.sfknit.org * http://www.deirdre.net
"You had thesaurus flakes for breakfast again, didn't you?"
-- Eric Williams
Bill Dayson
> Lest there be a misconception that I am
> against foreign degrees, whether from
> first-world or second/third-world countries, I
> do not doubt that there are some excellent
> programs in nations other than the U.S. Nor
> have I stated that one need "go to" a school in
> order to receive a credible degree...
> ...The problem, as I see it, is that without
> checking into a program personally,
> physically, and in detail, it is difficult to tell
> whether that program is credible in the first
> place.
I don't think that's always necessary. I am perfectly confident
enrolling in a totally non-resident program offered by the University of
London, say. Even though I live in California and London is in Europe. I
feel no need to travel to London and look at some buildings.
The point is that I am already acquainted with the University of London
and its reputation, and I have confidence in the overall quality and
management of the British higher education system.
The point I was trying to make yesterday (that Karlos apparently
misunderstood) is that there are many universities out there that people
have never heard of. And many of them are located in countries whose
higher education standards are either unknown or questionable. So the
mere fact that a university that one has never heard of has recognition
from a government whose standards are a cypher does nothing for one's
confidence.
Up until now, the UNESCO Handbook was one way that problem was
addressed. If somebody presents him- or herself at your desk with a
degree from some weird industrial institute in Turkmenistan (I'll stop
using Belize as an example), how are we to know if it is real or
memorex? Because the Turkmenistan ministry of education accredits it?
What does that mean? Is it a stringent assessment process or does it
just mean that some post-Soviet "biznessman" has greased some palms?
Check the UNESCO Handbook.
The problem is that if the UNESCO Handbook lets in the Bernes, then it
will lose credibility in all the other cases of questioned
qualifications. And some employers may just adopt a policy of rejecting
all degrees from small little-known countries on principle. If you can't
tell the good from the bad, don't take a chance with any of them. And I
think that will be a bad thing.
> There has been much discussion here, for
> example, about Berne University, which I
> maintain is a degree mill... ...Ditto MIGS . . . If
> you have not actually visited MIGS or CEU
> and are relying solely on their web site, you
> are bound to be screwed, period.
I share Steve's disquiet about MIGS, but not nearly to the same degree.
The reason is that I have quite a bit of respect for the Mexican higher
education system. MIGS is about at the cusp of "iffy-ness" in my
opinion. As I've said before, the ball is now in MIGS' court. If it is
going to grant doctorates, it has to act like other research
universities are expected to act. It has to play the academic "game" and
produce research and publications, and generally take a part in the life
of its disciplines.
But I'm not sure what the physical visit would add, exactly, that would
resolve the credibility question.
> Incidentally, Ken, the phrase "programs like
> your own TESC and CSDH" is not accurate. I
> graduated from TESC, Norwich, and Union.
> (Tom Head is the newsgroup regular who is
> in CSUDH.) But I visited each one *before* I
> enrolled. Because unless you are familiar with
> a college or university which you are
> considering, and whether it is in the U.S. or
> elsewhere, *how* do you know whether it is a
> credible school or not?
I got my MA from CSUDH (...not a regular... jeez...) And I enrolled
there without ever having set foot on their campus. The thing is, I was
very well acquainted with the California State University system (having
earned my BA from San Francisco State) and had no doubts as to CSUDH's
credibility. (I was also influenced by the comments in Bear's Guide).
Any questions I had didn't have anything to do with the campus
architecture, they concerned the details of the program, the nature of
the coursework, the thesis requirements and so on.
I don't see why the situation would be any different if I enrolled in
that new archaeology research doctorate that the University of Leicester
just put in and is promoting heavily in archaeological publications as a
distance degree. (Why don't Australian programs do that?) I don't need
to eat bad food in their student union to know that the school is real,
respected and credible. The Leicester School of Archaeology earned a "5"
in the British HEFC research assessments after all...
Steve Levicoff
> I agree completely with your post, but lest you be accused of being an
> old softy on the residency thing:
>
> You've recently stated (in terms more firm than the wimpy "in favor
> of") that you believe "anyone who wants to avoid all residency
> experiences at the graduate level doesn't deserve a graduate degree in
> the first place, since he or she will certainly not become a competent
> professional." You don't explicitly state that the degree itself
> lacks creditability, but ... ;)
Have I become a softie? No, in terms of the standards for *most*
doctorates. However, the availability of doctorates has become so much
wider over the past few years that I allow room for a few exceptions.
For example . . .
Several regionally accredited schools have implemented totally online
doctorates in audiology. However, those degrees are the Aud.D., not the
Ph.D. In the field of audiology, the clinical practicum comes into the
picture at the master's degree level, not the doctoral level.
Therefore, someone who enrolls in an Aud.D. program is *already* a
clinician, often works under the supervision of a physician (usually an
otolaryngologist), and is primarily expanding his or her academic and
clinical knowledge of the field.
Comparing that with psychology, for example, today the Ph.D. or Psy.D.
(or, in some areas, the Ed.D.) is usually the *first* degree for
licensure. A person becomes an audiologist with a master's degree, but
no one becoems a licensed psychologist until they have received the
doctorate, put in *thousands* of hours of clinical internship, passed
the licensure boards, etc.
Therefore, do I endorse the totally non-residential Aud.D., which makes
an audiologist a *better* audiologist? Absolutely. But do I endorse a
totally non-residential Ph.D. or Psy.D. as the *initial* licensure
credential for a psychologist? No way.
Therefore, with few exceptions and within a limited scope, my position
has not changed at all. Yes, I still hold that even a person who is
pursuing, say, a Ph.D. in the Humanities should have a residency
component in their doctoral program. Why? Because doctorate programs
are designed to make *leaders* in their field, and it is likely that
even a doctoral student in the humanities will likely teach others.
And, with the fragile egos of most people, will run around calling
themselves "Doctor." That, whether some of our rebelious colleagues
like it or not, demands accountability.
Tom C. Head
<levi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
*snip*
> Therefore, with few exceptions and within a limited scope, my position
> has not changed at all. Yes, I still hold that even a person who is
> pursuing, say, a Ph.D. in the Humanities should have a residency
> component in their doctoral program. Why? Because doctorate programs
> are designed to make *leaders* in their field, and it is likely that
> even a doctoral student in the humanities will likely teach others.
> And, with the fragile egos of most people, will run around calling
> themselves "Doctor." That, whether some of our rebelious colleagues
> like it or not, demands accountability.
...and the answer: a few weeks of seminars? I don't know, Steve, those
would have to be mighty good seminars; maybe I should refer some of my
Ph.D. buddies who aren't leaders in their fields to these seminars.
Clearly there's a transformative aspect to these things that most of us
just aren't aware of.
Steve, here's the issue as I see it: If you can't do a real doctorate
at a distance, you can't do a real doctorate at a distance, period.
Attending a few seminars and a ten day colloquium won't transform a
non-leader into a leader. If you can do a real doctorate at a
distance, then the seminars and colloquium aren't really essential.
But unless folks are getting neural implants at these things, I don't
see what the big difference is supposed to be.
Peace,
TH
lewchuk
That is an important issue but I don't think visiting the school is
necessarily required. How can you determine the legitimacy of a foreign
school ?
Country of origin... obviously 3rd world countries are more suspect
Accreditation... highest in country of origin
Rank / reputation in reputable professional journals
Opinion from RA schools / acceptance of degree
Qualtiy and opinion of students / alumni
Most of this information can be gathered without actually attending the
school. If all of this information is positive I highly doubt one will be
led astray. If there are any question marks... buyer beware !!!
lewchuk
"Tom C. Head" <he...@netdoor.com> wrote in message
news:221020001428430323%he...@netdoor.com...
Steve Levicoff
> ...and the answer: a few weeks of seminars? I don't know, Steve, those
> would have to be mighty good seminars; maybe I should refer some of my
> Ph.D. buddies who aren't leaders in their fields to these seminars.
> Clearly there's a transformative aspect to these things that most of us
> just aren't aware of.
Actually, Tom, you have hit the nail on the head. (No pun intended.)
Don't take this personally, but I doubt that you have been exposed to
this type of education in CSUDH - which, as good a program as it is, is
a rote/canned program.
The true nature of nontradtional education (not the distance education
claptrap we see these days in terms of cash-cow programs) is, indeed,
*transformative* education. To the extent that there is actually an
entire theoretical base behind it.
> Steve, here's the issue as I see it: If you can't do a real doctorate
> at a distance, you can't do a real doctorate at a distance, period.
> Attending a few seminars and a ten day colloquium won't transform a
> non-leader into a leader. If you can do a real doctorate at a
> distance, then the seminars and colloquium aren't really essential.
> But unless folks are getting neural implants at these things, I don't
> see what the big difference is supposed to be.
Neural implants, no. Of course, there are the nude meditations in a
semi-circle.
(On the other hand, even at Norwich U. they had Mandala centering
exercises on the quadrangle at six in the morning. Strictly optional -
the attendance, not the clothing. And, since I never attended them -
believing that six in the morning is an uncivil time to be awake - I
still don't know what the hell a Mandala centering exercercise is in the
first place.)
nort...@my-deja.com
Another question comes to mind about Berne's newly acquired status.
You had mentioned in the past that Foreign Evaluators were not looking
favorably on Berne. This too was my experience where one evaluator
basically said, fine they are accredited and so what does that mean (ie
who on the island had the ability to assess the school's programs).
Due to the fact that the Federation only has a community college and I
believe some franchised undergraduate programs from a recognized
university in the West Indies, this is probably a valid point.
Now, in light of Berne being listed in the UNESCO international
handbook the question arises as to how Berne will be
perceived/evaluated by the foreign credential evaluators?
You may be able to shed some light as you seem to have begun some
preliminary study on these issues. How do credential evaluators
view/use UNESCO's Handbook? Do they rely on it for making assessments?
North
In article <39F1FA20...@ursa.net>,
> > > And a great deal of educating needs to
> > > happen about the places like St. Kitts, Nevis,
> > > Norfolk Islands, etc. to accreditors, graduate
> > > admissions people, employers, etc.
> >
Steve Levicoff
> That is an important issue but I don't think visiting the school is
> necessarily required. How can you determine the legitimacy of a foreign
> school ?
>
> Country of origin... obviously 3rd world countries are more suspect
> Accreditation... highest in country of origin
> Rank / reputation in reputable professional journals
> Opinion from RA schools / acceptance of degree
> Qualtiy and opinion of students / alumni
>
> Most of this information can be gathered without actually attending the
> school. If all of this information is positive I highly doubt one will be
> led astray. If there are any question marks... buyer beware !!!
Surprising as it might seem, I'm going to agree with you, Ken. 100
percent.
BUT: How many prospective students actually take the time to check out a
school to that extent?
My concern is not the legitimate foreign schools, it's the degree
mills. Even in a country like England, for example, I recall John Bear
writing about one school whose office was located above a London beauty
salon. And I have run across several English schools that held their
degree-granting authority from Louisiana.
The problem, in short, is that the average person will *not* take the
time to "validate" the credibility of a school. In terms of U.S.
students, then, the good ol' regional accreditation factor is a nice,
simple way of validating institutional credibility (although it may not
speak to whether a student will like the program design, learning
methodology, or people at the school).
And the other problem is one you touched on in your very last sentence.
When there are question marks, buyers tend *not* to beware.
Tom C. Head
<levi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > ...and the answer: a few weeks of seminars? I don't know, Steve, those
> > would have to be mighty good seminars; maybe I should refer some of my
> > Ph.D. buddies who aren't leaders in their fields to these seminars.
> > Clearly there's a transformative aspect to these things that most of us
> > just aren't aware of.
>
> Actually, Tom, you have hit the nail on the head. (No pun intended.)
> Don't take this personally, but I doubt that you have been exposed to
> this type of education in CSUDH - which, as good a program as it is, is
> a rote/canned program.
I don't know -- CSUDH has a bad rap for this, but some courses are less
rote than others (HUX 579/The Arab World is pretty rote; HUX
503/Defining Music is about as non-rote as you can get; and, of course,
one can always do a HUX 594/Independent Study Project or three if
things get boring, although I never did). Generally speaking, the
history courses tend to be the worst about being rote (although there's
some flexibility even there, if one knows how to play the right cards),
followed (strangely enough) by the philosophy courses, then the
literature courses, then the music courses (which are extremely
flexible), and finally the art courses (which are almost too flexible).
The main thing about CSUDH is that it is very much the essence of the
Lone Ranger experience; you're unlikely to ever talk to your instructor
on the telephone unless there's a problem. You've got a set of hoops
you're supposed to jump through, and you jump through them. I think
there's something to be said for this approach, and as someone who went
through a bachelor's program based on exams I rather appreciated it.
I'm anything but a rote learner myself, though; I have to absorb
material in a vivid, integral manner, or I don't absorb it at all. So
the rote and canned aspects of CSUDH never really got to me; if I ever
started feeling like I was "phoning in" my assignments, I took my study
off on an interdisciplinary tangent (and usually, but not always, got a
higher grade as a result). Never a problem.
I did take three graduate-level residential classes (one in counseling,
two in Jesuit theology). The counseling class and one of the theology
classes satisfied me; the other theology class left me cold. I do
think that the counseling class taught me things that I probably
wouldn't have learned in a distance learning class, but on an academic
(as opposed to social) level the theology classes were expendable.
> The true nature of nontradtional education (not the distance education
> claptrap we see these days in terms of cash-cow programs) is, indeed,
> *transformative* education. To the extent that there is actually an
> entire theoretical base behind it.
As someone who has hung out with unschoolers for years, I can both
relate and un-relate here. On the one hand, I'm all for social and
transformative education -- as long as I'm the one in control. When
the program is designed to transform me, the experience feels
contrived.
I'm a control freak about very few things, but my mind is one of them.
My general feeling about the Ph.D. is that it's supposed to be very
student-driven; the student should (as s/he did on the master's thesis)
"leave the nest" to a certain extent and boldly go forth. This is why
I'm so thoroughly in love with the concept of the research model
doctorate. I'll readily admit that this is based largely on my own
biases, but I think that everybody's thoughts along these lines are
generally based largely on their own biases. Ze doctorate, zhe is a
work of art, no?
Of course, I can't guarantee now that I'd necessarily end up going
through a doctoral program without residencies; my circumstances have
changed. But if I were to do that, I don't think I'd miss very much on
an academic level. Maybe I would on a social level, or maybe my
promoter turns out to be a schmuck.
> > Steve, here's the issue as I see it: If you can't do a real doctorate
> > at a distance, you can't do a real doctorate at a distance, period.
> > Attending a few seminars and a ten day colloquium won't transform a
> > non-leader into a leader. If you can do a real doctorate at a
> > distance, then the seminars and colloquium aren't really essential.
> > But unless folks are getting neural implants at these things, I don't
> > see what the big difference is supposed to be.
>
> Neural implants, no. Of course, there are the nude meditations in a
> semi-circle.
Ah, yes. Now, *that's* something that can't be done by distance
learning. (I'd imagine CU-SeeMe wouldn't quite have the same effect.)
> (On the other hand, even at Norwich U. they had Mandala centering
> exercises on the quadrangle at six in the morning. Strictly optional -
> the attendance, not the clothing. And, since I never attended them -
> believing that six in the morning is an uncivil time to be awake - I
> still don't know what the hell a Mandala centering exercercise is in the
> first place.)
A bunch of people sit together and stare at an elaborate circle (with
labyrinthean designs, concentric layers of this and that, maybe a few
Tibetan or Sanskrit letters, etc), basically. Very likely some
chanting. May or may not be actually led by a Geshe or Lama, but
usually based on Tibetan meditation practices. Probably no nudity
involved, but at six AM and with hot coffee a likely possibility, this
might have been a good thing.
Peace,
TH
lewchuk
"Steve Levicoff" <levi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:39F36226...@ix.netcom.com...
> "Tom C. Head" wrote:
>
> > ...and the answer: a few weeks of seminars? I don't know, Steve, those
> > would have to be mighty good seminars; maybe I should refer some of my
> > Ph.D. buddies who aren't leaders in their fields to these seminars.
> > Clearly there's a transformative aspect to these things that most of us
> > just aren't aware of.
>
> Actually, Tom, you have hit the nail on the head. (No pun intended.)
> Don't take this personally, but I doubt that you have been exposed to
> this type of education in CSUDH - which, as good a program as it is, is
> a rote/canned program.
>
> The true nature of nontradtional education (not the distance education
> claptrap we see these days in terms of cash-cow programs) is, indeed,
> *transformative* education. To the extent that there is actually an
> entire theoretical base behind it.
>
> > Steve, here's the issue as I see it: If you can't do a real doctorate
> > at a distance, you can't do a real doctorate at a distance, period.
> > Attending a few seminars and a ten day colloquium won't transform a
> > non-leader into a leader. If you can do a real doctorate at a
> > distance, then the seminars and colloquium aren't really essential.
> > But unless folks are getting neural implants at these things, I don't
> > see what the big difference is supposed to be.
>
> Neural implants, no. Of course, there are the nude meditations in a
> semi-circle.
>
> (On the other hand, even at Norwich U. they had Mandala centering
> exercises on the quadrangle at six in the morning. Strictly optional -
> the attendance, not the clothing. And, since I never attended them -
> believing that six in the morning is an uncivil time to be awake - I
> still don't know what the hell a Mandala centering exercercise is in the
> first place.)
>
lewchuk
programs in the world.
"Steve Levicoff" <levi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:39F365A6...@ix.netcom.com...
> lewchuk wrote:
>
> > That is an important issue but I don't think visiting the school is
> > necessarily required. How can you determine the legitimacy of a foreign
> > school ?
> >
> > Country of origin... obviously 3rd world countries are more suspect
> > Accreditation... highest in country of origin
> > Rank / reputation in reputable professional journals
> > Opinion from RA schools / acceptance of degree
> > Qualtiy and opinion of students / alumni
> >
> > Most of this information can be gathered without actually attending the
> > school. If all of this information is positive I highly doubt one will
be
> > led astray. If there are any question marks... buyer beware !!!
>
> Surprising as it might seem, I'm going to agree with you, Ken. 100
> percent.
>
> BUT: How many prospective students actually take the time to check out a
> school to that extent?
>
> My concern is not the legitimate foreign schools, it's the degree
> mills. Even in a country like England, for example, I recall John Bear
> writing about one school whose office was located above a London beauty
> salon. And I have run across several English schools that held their
> degree-granting authority from Louisiana.
>
> The problem, in short, is that the average person will *not* take the
> time to "validate" the credibility of a school. In terms of U.S.
> students, then, the good ol' regional accreditation factor is a nice,
> simple way of validating institutional credibility (although it may not
> speak to whether a student will like the program design, learning
> methodology, or people at the school).
>
> And the other problem is one you touched on in your very last sentence.
> When there are question marks, buyers tend *not* to beware.
>
Steve Levicoff
> > The true nature of nontradtional education (not the distance education
> > claptrap we see these days in terms of cash-cow programs) is, indeed,
> > *transformative* education. To the extent that there is actually an
> > entire theoretical base behind it.
>
> As someone who has hung out with unschoolers for years, I can both
> relate and un-relate here. On the one hand, I'm all for social and
> transformative education -- as long as I'm the one in control. When
> the program is designed to transform me, the experience feels
> contrived. I'm a control freak about very few things, but my mind
> is one of them.
And I agree. But true nontraditional education means that you learn how
to transform yourself, not to let others transform you.
I was lucky enough to do the Vermont College Graduate Program at Norwich
University, where they encourage independent thinking, engage in
critical thinking, and have a real concept of transformative education.
Not all schools are that flexible, or that creative. (I can't help
thinking of Goddard College, just up the road from V.C., where I heard
several horror stories of faculty shoving their own views down the
throats of the students.)
A good nontraditional program will *always* be student-centered, which
is why I would not be able to get uinto the rote courses at CSUDH. (To
their credit, however, CSUDH does publish their course outlines and
assignments on the web. Thus, a prospective student can get an accurate
picture of teh program model prior to enrolling.)
Steve Levicoff
> Hence the mission Stevey... to help people find the best / legitimate
> programs in the world.
*Whose* mission, Kenny? Yours?
Nosiree, dude. It is neither your responsibility, nor mine, to "help
people find the best/legitimate programs in the world." And it is
presumptuous to suggest that you are capable of doing so. *Everyone*
has their preconceived notions about variuos programs, whether based on
accreditation factors, program model, learning methodology, etc. And
what is well-and-good for one person may not be right for somebody else.
(That's why, at the undergrad level, for example, Tom Head functioned
best in an exam-based model, while I functioned best in a
portfolio-based model. One man's ceiling is another man's floor, and
all that . . . )
In other words, people have to accept responsibility for their own
decisions, which is why I have sugessted that they get as many opinions
as possible, do their own damn research, and *then* make up their minds
as informed consumers.
Hell, if one simply takes the word of another person and happens to
read, say, Rich Douglas' tripe - sorry, I mean hype - about MIGS, or
Neil Hynd's crappola about Century, ad infinitum, they're bound to be
screwed.
You can play "missionary," Ken. I'd rather drive a truck. (And, hey, I
do!)
John Bear
> However, no one has presented any evidence that their course
> requirements or materials are substandard.
I think it is safe to say that there are many who would feel that a Ph.D.
that can be earned in six months, start to finish, is, by its very nature,
substandard, regardless of what is done during those six months.
And there are probably some who would argue that six months of intensive
work might result in as many clock hours as 3 years of "ordinary" work.
Incidentally, Berne at various times claimed five different unrecognized
accreditors before its present St. Kittsian one.
John Bear
Kevin Stewart
lewchuk wrote in message <39f37...@newsa.ev1.net>...
>Hmmmmmm......bullshit !
Well, that's wo bullseye's in a row, (in this thread).
If you were this accurate in archery, your medals would make Mr. T look
unadorned!
Kevin
Thomas Nixon
> I agree completely with your post, but lest you be accused of being an
> old softy on the residency thing:
>
> You've recently stated (in terms more firm than the wimpy "in favor
> of") that you believe "anyone who wants to avoid all residency
> experiences at the graduate level doesn't deserve a graduate degree in
> the first place, since he or she will certainly not become a competent
> professional." You don't explicitly state that the degree itself
> lacks creditability, but ... ;)
>
> Pete
Hasn't Steve said that about only doctorates and, in particular, those in the human
services field?
Tom
John Bear
> John,
>
> I am somewhat surprised by the six month time frame as it is not
> mentioned in their catalogue. I do not have their oldest catalogue
> merely the last two. They indicate between two and four years for a
> PhD. Where did you get the six month time frame from?
From the catalog I have. I says that one year is common, but if one has
already done graduate work, it can be as short as six months, plus the
month in St. Kitts. That is also in the approved-by-Eric-Berne text that
appeared in one recdent printing of Bears' Guide. It would appear there
has been a change for the better.
nort...@my-deja.com
I am somewhat surprised by the six month time frame as it is not
mentioned in their catalogue. I do not have their oldest catalogue
merely the last two. They indicate between two and four years for a
PhD. Where did you get the six month time frame from?
I realize that in the past they have claimed strange accreditation.
However, from what I have observed in their catalogue they are not that
much different than Walden & Capella. Of course none of us have taken
courses from them and are able to assess their course standards.
I guess the question is are they credible based on UNESCO or is
UNESCO's International Handbook now suspect as far as GAAP goes.
Also, do foreign credential evaluators use the Handbook for
assessments? I seem to think one of them told me they do (when I was
checking on the Trinity thing a long time ago).
North
In article <39F38F72...@ursa.net>,
John Bear <jo...@ursa.net> wrote:
> nort...@my-deja.com wrote, re Berne, in part:
>
> > However, no one has presented any evidence that their course
> > requirements or materials are substandard.
>
> I think it is safe to say that there are many who would feel that a
Ph.D.
> that can be earned in six months, start to finish, is, by its very
nature,
> substandard, regardless of what is done during those six months.
>
> And there are probably some who would argue that six months of
intensive
> work might result in as many clock hours as 3 years of "ordinary"
work.
>
> Incidentally, Berne at various times claimed five different
unrecognized
> accreditors before its present St. Kittsian one.
>
> John Bear
>
>
nort...@my-deja.com
nort...@my-deja.com wrote:
> John,
> I guess the question is are they credible based on UNESCO or is
> UNESCO's International Handbook now suspect as far as GAAP goes.
Hypothetically, if UNESCO is now suspect that pretty much leaves us at
Steve's position with regard to RA & US degrees. At least with very
few exceptions and even then his point is well taken. Explaining to
someone how you ended up with a University of South Africa or Potch PhD
and have never been out of New York in your life would be an
interesting sell no matter how reputable these institutions are.
UNESCO was used in part to judge MIGS credibility. If UNESCO listing
is no longer a reliable indicator, what assurance do we have that any
rigour was applied to the development & monitoring of their (MIGS)PhD
programs? You have a third world educational system accrediting a
school aimed primarily at the US market.
The times are getting very interesting.
North
Kevin Stewart
C R U T C H ! ! !
Relying on something like RA or UNESCO or USN&WR for validation of programs
is bullshit!
For example, in the case of a foreign school having a "branch office" in the
U.S., who's to say it isn't politically motivated or at least impacted? And
any international source for quality? You leave a country or their 'better'
colleges out and there could be a world of grief. You admit a country/-'s
'better' school and folks who know (the actual criteria by which that
classification ["better"] is given), may not "go with the flow."
Let's face it, a school may make the international list of 'proper' schools
and make the worst aspects of LaSalle or *that* Trinity look like ivy league
finest ideal!
OTOH, if education is ever to improve globally, the market will probably
have to do just such a weeding job. We may see College-level romper rooms
get approved officially, but ignored by those looking for the practical, not
the political or economic. It's kinda like critical acclaimation given to
some movie that flopped.
Kevin
nort...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8t0as0$3e4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <8t08og$22m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> nort...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> John,
>
>> I guess the question is are they credible based on UNESCO or is
>> UNESCO's International Handbook now suspect as far as GAAP goes.
snipped
Steve Levicoff
> From the catalog I have. I says that one year is common, but if one has
> already done graduate work, it can be as short as six months, plus the
> month in St. Kitts. That is also in the approved-by-Eric-Berne text that
> appeared in one recdent printing of Bears' Guide. It would appear there
> has been a change for the better.
I trust that what appears in Bear's Guide is a text approved by *Dale*
Berne, head honcho of his self-named degree mill.
The late Eric Berne, of course, was a well-known psychiatrist
specializing in Transactional Analysis and the author of "What Do You
Say After You Say Hello?" Having died in 1970, we can rest assured that
he never had anything to do with Berne University.
Tom C. Head
In article <39F3DEBB...@ix.netcom.com>, Steve Levicoff
<levi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> The late Eric Berne, of course, was a well-known psychiatrist
> specializing in Transactional Analysis and the author of "What Do You
> Say After You Say Hello?"
(If the answer is "How much for the diploma?", we may be on to
something.)
> Having died in 1970, we can rest assured that he never had anything to do
> with Berne University.
Having died in 1970, how would we know?
(I'm sorry; my whole reason for responding to this post was to point
out that lovely dangling participle. Games people play, and whatnot.)
Slightly more relevant: I was reading Jorge Luis Borges' "Collected
Fictions" (Andrew Hurley's translation) last night in a half-awake
state, and ran across something that struck me as being most explicitly
about DE. And then I forgot where I saw it.
Volumes could be written about nontraditional education in Latin
American literature anyway, though. The younger Aureliano Buendia in
Gabriel Garcia Marquez' "One Hundred Years of Solitude" spends most of
his life studying Sanskrit in his basement without a tutor.
Peace,
TH
lewchuk
<nort...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8t0as0$3e4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8t08og$22m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> nort...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > John,
>
> > I guess the question is are they credible based on UNESCO or is
> > UNESCO's International Handbook now suspect as far as GAAP goes.
>
> Hypothetically, if UNESCO is now suspect that pretty much leaves us at
> Steve's position with regard to RA & US degrees. At least with very
> few exceptions and even then his point is well taken. Explaining to
> someone how you ended up with a University of South Africa or Potch PhD
> and have never been out of New York in your life would be an
> interesting sell no matter how reputable these institutions are.
Actually, no more interesting than explaining to someone how you ended up
with a California State Masters and have never been out of New York in your
life.
Bill Dayson
> Having died in 1970, we can rest assured that
> he never had anything to do with Berne
> University.
All I can say if that if he has recently been representing Berne
University to Dr. Bear, I think that I have found an *excellent* reason
to pursue a religious studies doctorate at Berne, accreditation or no
accreditation. They must have a dynamite research program!
John Bear
DWC wrote:
> The worst thing
> Berne has ever done in my opinion is claiming accreditation from The
> international Assoc. of Universities and Colleges as well as the World
> Assoc. of Universities and Colleges. It may take Berne ten more years
> to get beyond that.
And the Accrediting Commission International of Beebe, Arkansas, and the
Worldwide Ministries of the United Kingdom.
Nonetheless -- people do change; organizations do change. If would be a
pretty dismal world if there were no prospect of this. Even we
non-Christians buy that argument. So I watch with interest and await
further developments.
John Bear
John Bear
>
> I trust that what appears in Bear's Guide is a text approved by *Dale*
> Berne, head honcho of his self-named degree mill.
>
> The late Eric Berne, of course, was a well-known psychiatrist
> specializing in Transactional Analysis and the author of "What Do You
> Say After You Say Hello?" Having died in 1970, we can rest assured that
> he never had anything to do with Berne University.
Indeed, yes, it was Dale Berne, and neither Eric Berne, nor Bobby Seale* who
approved that copy.
John
__________
""Berne, baby, Berne!"
jvorde...@ggu.edu
prepared by the International Association of Universities & the UNESCO
Information Centre on Higher Education? If so, I don't see how Berne
University could appear. While I have not yet seen the just-released
16th edition, the International Handbook has never listed tertiary
institutions in Commonwealth countries. Since St. Kitts & Nevis is a
Commonwealth country, it seems to me that the listing would have to be
in the Commonwealth Universities Yearbook published by the Association
of Commonwealth Universities. UNESCO has no role in the publication of
the Commonwealth Universities Yearbook.
While I suppose it is possible that Berne University might somehow be
able to join the International Association of Universities, I know of
no one who uses membership in that group as a criterion for
acceptability of a degree. A quick check of the list of members
(http://www.unesco.org/iau/members.html) shows that there are many well-
known universities around the world which do not belong.
Jason Vorderstrasse
jvorde...@ggu.edu
In article <8sqmnl$3q8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
nort...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Based on information I have (not from Berne) it appears that Berne
> University International Graduate School will be listed in the next
> addition of UNESCO's Handbook.
John Bear
information indeed.
Preliminary data from my survey of (to date) 327 registrars shows that 51
find schools listed in the UNESCO-IAU handbook as "generally acceptable,"
66 sometimes acceptable, 87 definitely unacceptable (based on this standard
alone), and the rest from neutral to somewhat unacceptable.
It may well be time to reconsider the criteria for GAAP that I include. (As
mentioned here more than once, GAAP is not our idea, but my daughter and I
made the determination of which of a dozen or so 'markers' we would accept
for inclusion. But, heaven forfend, I really wouldn't want both Steve
Levicoff *and* Jason Vorderstrasse laughing at me. Not at the same time,
anyway.
John Bear
www.degree.net
Tom C. Head
Dayson <cis...@webtv.net> wrote:
> > Having died in 1970, we can rest assured that
> > he never had anything to do with Berne
> > University.
>
> All I can say if that if he has recently been representing Berne
> University to Dr. Bear, I think that I have found an *excellent* reason
> to pursue a religious studies doctorate at Berne, accreditation or no
> accreditation. They must have a dynamite research program!
Actually, you've probably looked at this school already, but the
University of Wales-Lampeter offers an external research Ph.D. in
religious studies:
...and boasts John Hick ("Death and Eternal Life"), Ninian Smart
("Encyclopedia of World Religions"), and Gavin Flood (the West's
foremost authority on Kashmir Shaivism) as visiting lecturers and
consultants.
They also offer an M.A. in death and immortality entirely by distance
learning, and the entire program is designed around Hick's "Death and
Eternal Life" as a central pillar (although there is a *lot* of other
reading involved).
Peace,
TH
Tom C. Head
> Actually, no more interesting than explaining to someone how you ended up
> with a California State Masters and have never been out of New York in your
> life.
Or (my scenario) why you have a bachelor's from New York, a master's
from California, and yet are a lifelong Mississippian who has never
gone further west than Texas or further north than Ohio.
The way I've addressed it so far is to be very blunt, open, and frankly
pretty cocky about how I've earned my degrees. Will this come back to
haunt me later on? Probably, but I've learned that it usually pays to
be honest in other areas of life, so I'm not really inclined to handle
this any differently, at least not yet.
Peace,
TH
lewchuk
"Tom C. Head" <he...@netdoor.com> wrote in message
news:231020001615521283%he...@netdoor.com...> > Actually, no more interesting than explaining to someone how you ended
up
> > with a California State Masters and have never been out of New York in
your
> > life.
>
> Or (my scenario) why you have a bachelor's from New York, a master's
> from California, and yet are a lifelong Mississippian who has never
> gone further west than Texas or further north than Ohio.
I can't believe that the "you havn't been to ____" arguement is still being
raised against foreign schools, it is so lame.
>
> The way I've addressed it so far is to be very blunt, open, and frankly
> pretty cocky about how I've earned my degrees. Will this come back to
> haunt me later on? Probably,
If you pursue programs like CSDH I think you are relatively safe (i.e.
traditional university, traditional program offered via traditional means
with an option for non-traditional delivery). People who pursue virtual
universities or non-traditional programs are in much more dangerous
territory.
I find it amazing that some individuals in this NG have "questioned" market
reaction to foreign degrees but embrace any RA non-traditional option. In
my experience I have seen little prejudice against legitimate foreign
degrees but I have seen plenty of skepticism towards virtual-Us, internet
degrees, etc..
Of course this does not mean that it is impossible that some close-minded
sort will not exclude you in the future for not sitting in a class.
Steve Levicoff
> lewchuk <wald...@ev1.net> wrote:
>
> > Actually, no more interesting than explaining to someone how you ended up
> > with a California State Masters and have never been out of New York in your
> > life.
>
> Or (my scenario) why you have a bachelor's from New York, a master's
> from California, and yet are a lifelong Mississippian who has never
> gone further west than Texas or further north than Ohio.
>
> The way I've addressed it so far is to be very blunt, open, and frankly
> pretty cocky about how I've earned my degrees. Will this come back to
> haunt me later on? Probably, but I've learned that it usually pays to
> be honest in other areas of life, so I'm not really inclined to handle
> this any differently, at least not yet.
Nor should you. I freely admit that this is an example of my American
provincialism, but to me, one does not need to "explain" having a degree
from Cal State absent having gone to California.
Why? Because it's freakin' Cal State! *Everyone* has heard of Cal
State, right down to their football teams. On the other hand, absent
discussion in this newsgroup or mention in Bear's Guide, I (an
accomplished academic, which, along with fifty cents, will buy me half a
cup of coffee . . . except at Starbucks) have never heard of
Poncharellofestoom. Or MIGS. Or Sturt. Ad infinitum, ad nauseam.
But freakin' Cal State? I'll accept that one in a nanosecond,
regardless of whether one has ever been to California.
Steve Levicoff
> Snip. . .
Snip? How conveeeeeeeeeenient.
> "This goes back to the same argument made by Peter (of Canada) recently,
> and one that I have restated here several times over the years: Why
> would an American student hold a foreign degree for which he or she has
> never done a residency, especially if that degree came from a second or
> third-world country?"
>
> Steve and the others who hold to this argument,
>
> IF, and it is a big IF, you are not implying that US Education is
> superior to all other, then, your argument attacks the foundation of
> distant education. In other words, if you did not physically
> attend "that" school, how can you claim a valid education from "that"
> school?
Physically attending a school is not the issue at all. Indeed, the
whole philosophy of nntraditional education is that it is campus-free.
> Steve, as I recall, we each have degrees from Thomas Edison State
> College.
Correct. Prior to my going on for a doctorate from Union, and you going
on for a doctorate . . . from LaSalle. (Couldn't resist, Randy. Just a
reminder for anyone who forgot that little gem.)
> While you may have spent long nights at the TESC library, my
> experience is different.
Right. All of those long hours burning the candle at both ends in the
stacks on State Street . . .
> Other than driving Interstate 95 for the ferry ride to the Statue of
> Liberty, and a few airport connections through Trenton, I have
> never actually traveled to New Jersey. In fact, more than a few
> would consider New Jersey a third world country, albeit one with
> schools that have attained Regional Accreditation. . . .
And your point is? New Jersey is hardly the cesspool that some people
describe. However, I do not feel the need to play New Jersey apologist,
preferring to leave that to the more eloquent Mr. Springsteen.
Besides, how could you connect through Trenton and not visit your alma
mater, even if it were just to pick up a nifty t-shirt or coffee mug?
> . . . which takes us back to the original contention posed by several here.
> If Regional Accreditation is your one and only gold standard, then say
> it.
Okay . . . Regional accreditation is my one and only gold standard. I
have other standards that are silver and bronze, for example, but the
gold standard is, indeed, regional accreditation.
> Don't line to take shots at one non-US school after another
> relying on the lame notion that somehow each are inferior to, fill in
> the blank, (with your local favorite school) based solely on slivers of
> information you found after two hours on the internet.
My monthly summary reveals that I use the Internet for far more than two
hours. But thanks for the kind thought.
> Steve, I am not trying to slam you (this time). I picked your position
> to post because your argument was better constructed that some others
> making the same assertion.
r_ke...@my-deja.com
Snip. . .
"This goes back to the same argument made by Peter (of Canada) recently,
and one that I have restated here several times over the years: Why
would an American student hold a foreign degree for which he or she has
never done a residency, especially if that degree came from a second or
third-world country?"
Steve and the others who hold to this argument,
IF, and it is a big IF, you are not implying that US Education is
superior to all other, then, your argument attacks the foundation of
distant education. In other words, if you did not physically
attend "that" school, how can you claim a valid education from "that"
school?
Steve, as I recall, we each have degrees from Thomas Edison State
College. While you may have spent long nights at the TESC library, my
experience is different. Other than driving Interstate 95 for the
ferry ride to the Statue of Liberty, and a few airport connections
through Trenton, I have never actually traveled to New Jersey. In
fact, more than a few would consider New Jersey a third world country,
albeit one with schools that have attained Regional Accreditation. . . .
which takes us back to the original contention posed by several here.
If Regional Accreditation is your one and only gold standard, then say
it. Don't line to take shots at one non-US school after another
relying on the lame notion that somehow each are inferior to, fill in
the blank, (with your local favorite school) based solely on slivers of
information you found after two hours on the internet.
Steve, I am not trying to slam you (this time). I picked your position
to post because your argument was better constructed that some others
making the same assertion.
Randy Kearns
nort...@my-deja.com
you do since you are a registrar. However, they have been listed in
the IHU as an accredited institution (based on their St. Kitts
accreditation). Apparently, they have started listing tertiary
institutions in Commonwealth countries.
My information came from Ms Rabreau along with an attached copy of the
page to be included.
The issue here is that this publication was one of the unoffical and
not universally accepted GAAP methods to verify an institution's
legitimacy/acceptability (for example MIGS).
The issue of global education is getting very interesting, if not
somewhat confusing.
North
In article <8t1u0m$b2p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
jvorde...@ggu.edu wrote:
> I'm assuming you mean the International Handbook of Universities,
> prepared by the International Association of Universities & the UNESCO
> Information Centre on Higher Education? If so, I don't see how Berne
> University could appear. While I have not yet seen the just-released
> 16th edition, the International Handbook has never listed tertiary
> institutions in Commonwealth countries. Since St. Kitts & Nevis is a
> Commonwealth country, it seems to me that the listing would have to be
> in the Commonwealth Universities Yearbook published by the Association
> of Commonwealth Universities. UNESCO has no role in the publication
of
> the Commonwealth Universities Yearbook.
>
> While I suppose it is possible that Berne University might somehow be
> able to join the International Association of Universities, I know of
> no one who uses membership in that group as a criterion for
> acceptability of a degree. A quick check of the list of members
> (http://www.unesco.org/iau/members.html) shows that there are many
well-
> known universities around the world which do not belong.
>
> Jason Vorderstrasse
> jvorde...@ggu.edu
>
> In article <8sqmnl$3q8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> nort...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Based on information I have (not from Berne) it appears that Berne
> > University International Graduate School will be listed in the next
> > addition of UNESCO's Handbook.
> > North
> >
nort...@my-deja.com
John Bear <jo...@ursa.net> wrote:
snip
> From the catalog I have. I says that one year is common, but if one
has
> already done graduate work, it can be as short as six months, plus the
> month in St. Kitts. That is also in the approved-by-Eric-Berne text
that
> appeared in one recdent printing of Bears' Guide. It would appear
there
> has been a change for the better.
Their new catalogue says they will only take a maximum of 15 credit
hours of transfer credit to be applied to courework.
North
nort...@my-deja.com
US degree. In my organization they look it up to see that it is
accredited and then case closed. Foreign degrees are accepted as well
as long as they are in a book HR has. Otherwise off you go to the
foreign credential evaluator. The job requirement merely says
accredited degree in such and such. Beyond that they look at the rest
of your resume.
As for classroom experience, mine has been that it was somewhat
valuable but not invaluable. For the most part I could have done
quite well with a reading list and research and skipped much of the
self promoting discussion in the classroom. For what the experience
itself was worth, I believe someone could probably have done as well
using the completely DE Touro's methods (camera and internet for
interaction with students and professor). Being there live and in
person is not a necessity at all (for most fields). There are of
course exceptions such as Liberty U's Counseling program which requires
(rightfully so) limited residency summer sessions. A group therapy
class is best conducted with warm bodies in a classroom where real
interaction/dynamics can occur and be observed in as close to a real
life setting as possible.
North
In article <39f4b...@newsa.ev1.net>,
"lewchuk" <wald...@ev1.net> wrote:
>
> "Tom C. Head" <he...@netdoor.com> wrote in message
> news:231020001615521283%he...@netdoor.com...
> > In article <39f43...@newsa.ev1.net>, lewchuk <wald...@ev1.net>
wrote:
> >
> > > Actually, no more interesting than explaining to someone how you
ended
> up
> > > with a California State Masters and have never been out of New
York in
> your
> > > life.
> >
> > Or (my scenario) why you have a bachelor's from New York, a master's
> > from California, and yet are a lifelong Mississippian who has never
> > gone further west than Texas or further north than Ohio.
>
> I can't believe that the "you havn't been to ____" arguement is still
being
> raised against foreign schools, it is so lame.
>
> >
> > The way I've addressed it so far is to be very blunt, open, and
frankly
> > pretty cocky about how I've earned my degrees. Will this come back
to
> > haunt me later on? Probably,
>
> If you pursue programs like CSDH I think you are relatively safe (i.e.
> traditional university, traditional program offered via traditional
means
> with an option for non-traditional delivery). People who pursue
virtual
> universities or non-traditional programs are in much more dangerous
> territory.
>
> I find it amazing that some individuals in this NG have "questioned"
market
> reaction to foreign degrees but embrace any RA non-traditional
option. In
> my experience I have seen little prejudice against legitimate foreign
> degrees but I have seen plenty of skepticism towards virtual-Us,
internet
> degrees, etc..
>
> Of course this does not mean that it is impossible that some close-
minded
> sort will not exclude you in the future for not sitting in a class.
>
> but I've learned that it usually pays to
> > be honest in other areas of life, so I'm not really inclined to
handle
> > this any differently, at least not yet.
> >
> >
> > Peace,
> >
> > TH
Karlos Al Lacaye
In article <2716-39F...@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, Bill Dayson
says...
>I don't think that's always necessary. I am perfectly confident
>enrolling in a totally non-resident program offered by the University of
>London, say. Even though I live in California and London is in Europe. I
>feel no need to travel to London and look at some buildings.
I agree. However, it would be nice to go to the graduation ceremony; at least,
that is what I think. However, I know that many people on this newsgroup don't
care about this...
>The point is that I am already acquainted with the University of London
>and its reputation, and I have confidence in the overall quality and
>management of the British higher education system.
I agree. And I also believe in the "Association of (British) Commonwealth
Universities". As a matter of fact, weren't the British themselves who invented
this whole thing of "Commonwealth Countries"?
>The point I was trying to make yesterday (that Karlos apparently
>misunderstood)
I don't understand what I didn't understand, but I am going to try to explain
myself here.
> is that there are many universities out there that people
>have never heard of.
I know that in the United States there is a lot of ignorance when it comes to
foreign universities, even if they are English-speaking universities. Notheless,
this does not apply to the whole world. For example, in Latin America,
university students and university teachers are well aware of many
Spanish-speaking universities in many different countries.
> And many of them are located in countries whose
>higher education standards are either unknown or questionable.
Tom Head mentioned that international validation is important to recognize the
validity of these universities. I couldn't agree more with this. There are some
methods to achieve this end that I am going to try to explain.
> So the
>mere fact that a university that one has never heard of has recognition
>from a government whose standards are a cypher does nothing for one's
>confidence.
I agree. That is why I mentioned international validation. Let us put as an
example The University of Belize. While you might not have heard about this
university, let me tell you why this is a "genuine" institution:
1) The University of Belize is a member of the "Association of
(British)Commonwealth Universities".
2) The University of Belize is a member of the "Caribbean Tertiary
Institutions".
3) The University of Belize is a member of the "Central American Confederation
of State Universities".
I think that these points by themselves validate the "authenticity" of The
University of Belize, but there is more:
4) There have been agreements with universities in Maine and in Florida so that
a University of Belize graduate is guaranteed a place in graduate studies in
specific fields.
5) The University of Belize maintains cooperations with universities in the
United States, the United Kingdon, Mexico, and Central America.
6) The University of Belize offers student exchange programs and scholarships,
mainly to Mexicans and Central Americans.
Finally, I can attest of the quality of this university since I have their
current catalog and have visited this instituion personally. For instance, in
the case of their Bachelor of Science in Business Administration, they require
136 credit hours as opposed to the 120 required in the United States.
Furthermore, many of the books used for this program are books from the United
States used in American instituions, for example, Ferris State University (The
University of Belize used to be affiliated with Ferris State University). If
somebody tells me that a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration from The
University of Belize is not at least equivalent to an American Bachelor of
Business Administration, then I don't know what to tell him or her.
>Up until now, the UNESCO Handbook was one way that problem was
>addressed. If somebody presents him- or herself at your desk with a
>degree from some weird industrial institute in Turkmenistan (I'll stop
>using Belize as an example), how are we to know if it is real or
>memorex? Because the Turkmenistan ministry of education accredits it?
>What does that mean? Is it a stringent assessment process or does it
>just mean that some post-Soviet "biznessman" has greased some palms?
>Check the UNESCO Handbook.
If the institute in Turkmenistan also satisfies some or most of the points I
mentioned above, it would also be "genuine".
>The problem is that if the UNESCO Handbook lets in the Bernes, then it
>will lose credibility in all the other cases of questioned
>qualifications. And some employers may just adopt a policy of rejecting
>all degrees from small little-known countries on principle.
I agree. At any rate, that applies to all foreign degrees in general. Nobody can
deny that there is a general discrimination for foreing degrees in the United
States, whether they are from the UK, Australia, South Africa, etc. Steve
Levicoff knows this perfectly; that is why he recommends an American student to
study an American degree. And you know what? Sometimes there is even regional
discrimination for domestic US degrees. I remember a Human Resources Manager
here in Florida that always gave preferences to studens who graduated in
Florida. If this even happens at the domestic level, what can we expect at the
foreign level?
(snip)
Please, folks, don't start a controversy here. I know that there are times when
a foreign degree is useful and even desirable, but we need to be prepared when
confronted about this foreign degree.
Thank you for your time and attention.
Respectfully yours,
Karlos Alberto Lacaye
caballe...@myremarq.com
P.S.: Please excuse my grammatical errors or spelling errors, but I am really
tired.
jvorde...@ggu.edu
determining whether or not a particular institution is recognized by
that country's Ministry of Education. The International Handbook of
Universities remains the best source to find out this information for a
variety of countries in the same book. While I would certainly
recommend that registrars/admissions officers also look to PIER books
or Ministry of Education information on the particular country, the
International Handbook is a good starting point.
My point regarding the IAU was that most of the schools listed in the
Handbook are not IAU members. So, if Berne is a member of IAU, that
might influence a particular admissions officer/registrar, but I think
that the admissions officer/registrar is much more likely to be
influenced by any communication from the Ministry of Education, Labour
& Social Security that Berne is, in fact, recognized. Of course, if
the International Handbook has started to list schools in Commonwealth
countries, it will also be interesting to see if admissions
officers/registrars use these lisitings or if they will continue to use
the Commonwealth Universities Yearbook. My guess is that many
admissions officers/registrars will use only the International
Handbook, given that not having to buy the Commonwealth Universities
Yearbook will mean a $200 savings!
Jason Vorderstrasse
In article <39F483BC...@ursa.net>,
John Bear <jo...@ursa.net> wrote:
> Jason writes as an experienced registrar/admissions officer.
Interesting
> information indeed.
>
> Preliminary data from my survey of (to date) 327 registrars shows
that 51
> find schools listed in the UNESCO-IAU handbook as "generally
acceptable,"
> 66 sometimes acceptable, 87 definitely unacceptable (based on this
standard
> alone), and the rest from neutral to somewhat unacceptable.
>
> It may well be time to reconsider the criteria for GAAP that I
include. (As
> mentioned here more than once, GAAP is not our idea, but my daughter
and I
> made the determination of which of a dozen or so 'markers' we would
accept
> for inclusion. But, heaven forfend, I really wouldn't want both Steve
> Levicoff *and* Jason Vorderstrasse laughing at me. Not at the same
time,
> anyway.
>
> John Bear
> www.degree.net
>
> jvorde...@ggu.edu wrote:
>
> > While I suppose it is possible that Berne University might somehow
be
> > able to join the International Association of Universities, I know
of
> > no one who uses membership in that group as a criterion for
> > acceptability of a degree. A quick check of the list of members
> > (http://www.unesco.org/iau/members.html) shows that there are many
well-
> > known universities around the world which do not belong.
> >
> > Jason Vorderstrasse
> > jvorde...@ggu.edu
> >
> > In article <8sqmnl$3q8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > nort...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > Based on information I have (not from Berne) it appears that Berne
> > > University International Graduate School will be listed in the
next
> > > addition of UNESCO's Handbook.
> > > North
> > >
jvorde...@ggu.edu
list Commonwealth countries. It will be interesting to see if
admissions officers/registrars will continue to use the International
Handbook and the Commonwealth Universities Yearbook in tandem or just
the International Handbook. It will be particularly interesting to see
what sort of conflicts there are between the two books.
Are any other institutions listed for St. Kitts & Nevis? Palgrave
claims that the 16th edition was published this month, but my copy is
still back-ordered.
Jason Vorderstrasse
In article <8t2q86$3fc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
nort...@my-deja.com
only one I know about is Berne University International Graduate School.
The only page I was e-mailed by Ms. Rabreau (UNESCO) was the one for
Berne University so I have no idea about the inclusion of any other St.
Kitts/Nevis schools. Of course St. Kitts does have a Vet program (DVM)
there which is tied to a school in NY. I believe it is called Ross
something or other and qualifies graduates to take the licensure exams
back in the United States. Very expensive.
Also Ms Rabreau said it will be included in the next addition. I
assume that is the one that is coming out now.
Since you are a registrar, how would you view Berne University. How do
you evaluate foreign schools?
North
In article <8t4g55$eft$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
jvorde...@ggu.edu wrote:
> That's great information that the International Handbook is going to
> list Commonwealth countries. It will be interesting to see if
> admissions officers/registrars will continue to use the International
> Handbook and the Commonwealth Universities Yearbook in tandem or just
> the International Handbook. It will be particularly interesting to see
> what sort of conflicts there are between the two books.
>
> Are any other institutions listed for St. Kitts & Nevis? Palgrave
> claims that the 16th edition was published this month, but my copy is
> still back-ordered.
>
> Jason Vorderstrasse
>
> In article <8t2q86$3fc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> nort...@my-deja.com wrote:
r_ke...@my-deja.com
Snip. . .
> Snip? How conveeeeeeeeeenient.
But of course. (grin)
Snip. . .
> Correct. Prior to my going on for a doctorate from Union, and you
going on for a doctorate . . . from LaSalle. (Couldn't resist, Randy.
Just a reminder for anyone who forgot that little gem.)
and today you drive a truck and I employee a few truck drivers
(although most have GED's with CDL's not PhD's), sorry, couldn't resist
for anyone who forgot that gem as well.
Snip. . .
> Okay . . . Regional accreditation is my one and only gold standard. I
> have other standards that are silver and bronze, for example, but the
> gold standard is, indeed, regional accreditation.
And Steve, that is my point. Several here have taken more than one
thinly veiled attack on Brene, MIGS, Heriot Watt, several Canadian and
some of the Australian Universities with a host of sordid reasons, when
the real issue is, they do not meet YOUR/THEIR idea of your/their Gold
Standard. There is nothing wrong with that position, but say it.
Don't rationalize with hearsay, guilt by association, or some crack
about renting hotel space to hold a class. You can hold a class at a
hotel and still retain some legitimacy.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/ccpe/programs/AHC.shtml
(check the location!)
The issue is not about what is "good." It is about "legitimate and
Generally Accepted." Maybe Brene is for real, maybe they are not. I
don't know, but for most of you out there, neither do you. If you have
a real experience with Brene, then by all means, share it.
Again Steve, not trying to flame you, and as I noted in an offline
email, I do appreciate your point of view. As I said before, I
probably agree with it more than you realize.
Steve Levicoff
> Steve,
>
> Snip. . .
> > Snip? How conveeeeeeeeeenient.
>
> But of course. (grin)
>
> Snip. . .
> > Correct. Prior to my going on for a doctorate from Union, and you
> > going on for a doctorate . . . from LaSalle. (Couldn't resist, Randy.
> > Just a reminder for anyone who forgot that little gem.)
>
> and today you drive a truck and I employee a few truck drivers
> (although most have GED's with CDL's not PhD's), sorry, couldn't resist
> for anyone who forgot that gem as well.
Nor would I want them to. After all, Randy, it's someone who has
accomplished what they wanted to that can afford to make the choice to
have some fun. And with people like you pontificating about a field in
which they are unqualified, it's no wonder that I prefer driving a truck
to puttering around in academe. Besides, as Rick Nelson wrote, "If
memories are all I sang, I'd rather drive a truck." So I do.
> > Okay . . . Regional accreditation is my one and only gold standard. I
> > have other standards that are silver and bronze, for example, but the
> > gold standard is, indeed, regional accreditation.
>
> And Steve, that is my point. Several here have taken more than one
> thinly veiled attack on Brene, MIGS, Heriot Watt, several Canadian and
> some of the Australian Universities with a host of sordid reasons, when
> the real issue is, they do not meet YOUR/THEIR idea of your/their Gold
> Standard. There is nothing wrong with that position, but say it.
Thinly veiled? I thought that our attacks on Berne and MIGS are not
veiled at all, they're quite blatant. (I do not comment on Harriet What
[sic] at all, nor am I concerned with Canadian and Australian
universities one way or the other.]
And I have said it: In terms of Berne and MIGS, they not only do not
meet my gold standard, they are blatant degree mills.
> Don't rationalize with hearsay, guilt by association, or some crack
> about renting hotel space to hold a class. You can hold a class at a
> hotel and still retain some legitimacy.
Who ever said that you could not? Of the cilloquium and three seminars
I attended when doing my Ph.D. from Union, two were held at a YMCA
conference center in Pawling, New York. One was held at a Sheraton
Hotel in Alexandria, Virginia, and the other was held at the University
College Center at the U. of Maryland.
The question does not revolve around the facility at which an event is
held, but around the school that is sponsoring that event. Thus, there
is a significant difference between, say, Union holding an event at a
Sheraton Hotel in the metro Washington area and Berne University holding
an event in Nevis/St. Kitts. The difference is between Union and Berne
- and that's a biiiiiiiiiggggg difference.
> The issue is not about what is "good." It is about "legitimate and
> Generally Accepted." Maybe Brene is for real, maybe they are not. I
> don't know, but for most of you out there, neither do you. If you have
> a real experience with Brene, then by all means, share it.
I'd say that we *do* know the difference. If you don't know the
difference, perhaps it's because your judgment is skewed by your own
degree mill doctorate.
> Again Steve, not trying to flame you, and as I noted in an offline
> email, I do appreciate your point of view. As I said before, I
> probably agree with it more than you realize.
Probably. But if you were to clean up your own credential act, think of
how much more credibility you would have.
lewchuk
<r_ke...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8t5jpv$crf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Steve,
>
> Snip. . .
> > Snip? How conveeeeeeeeeenient.
>
> But of course. (grin)
>
> Snip. . .
> > Correct. Prior to my going on for a doctorate from Union, and you
> going on for a doctorate . . . from LaSalle. (Couldn't resist, Randy.
> Just a reminder for anyone who forgot that little gem.)
>
> and today you drive a truck and I employee a few truck drivers
> (although most have GED's with CDL's not PhD's), sorry, couldn't resist
> for anyone who forgot that gem as well.
>
> Snip. . .
> > Okay . . . Regional accreditation is my one and only gold standard. I
> > have other standards that are silver and bronze, for example, but the
> > gold standard is, indeed, regional accreditation.
>
> And Steve, that is my point. Several here have taken more than one
> thinly veiled attack on Brene, MIGS, Heriot Watt, several Canadian and
> some of the Australian Universities with a host of sordid reasons, when
> the real issue is, they do not meet YOUR/THEIR idea of your/their Gold
> Standard.
Interesting point.
I have two basic assumptions:
1) The acquisition of knowledge, skills and abilities required for being
awarded a degree (from AA to PhD) can be accomplished in most fields in a
multitude of ways... from ones emphasizing an extremely high level of human
interaction and support to a purely "self-educated" / independent learning
ones. However, most people have a specific learning style which emphasizes
a particular type of experience... they will be more effective in one type
of program than another. Furthermore, an individual may choose not to study
via their preferred learning style because of personal circumstances.
2) Although education systems have developed somewhat differently in
various countries... there are excellent programs in countries around the
globe. Any learner is doing themselves a disservice (in most cases) by
limiting their potential learning experience to programs from any particular
country.
I believe these assumptions are shared by others, for example I would infer
from their postings that both Mr. Head and Dr. Bear would agree with these
assumptions. My "gold-standard" is influenced by these two assumptions.
Dr. Levicoff (and some others), appears to have other assumptions:
1) The acquisition of some knowledge, skills and abilities (as least at
certain degree levels) can only be accomplished via a certain learning
experience regardless of the learnings style of the person (i.e. the
residency argument)
2) "Foreign" programs and non-RA US programs are inferior to RA US programs.
(i.e. the RA argument)
Steve's "gold-standard" is influence by his two assumptions.
So the discussion, in this case, is not totally over the quality of schools
(although that is a factor) as much as it is a discussion regarding
pedagogy, prejudices and presuppositions.
Tom C. Head
> Dr. Levicoff (and some others), appears to have other assumptions:
> 1) The acquisition of some knowledge, skills and abilities (as least at
> certain degree levels) can only be accomplished via a certain learning
> experience regardless of the learnings style of the person (i.e. the
> residency argument)
> 2) "Foreign" programs and non-RA US programs are inferior to RA US programs.
> (i.e. the RA argument)
While I think you hit the nail on the head with #1, I think #2 is a bit
off; Steve's argument is not that foreign programs and non-RA programs
are inherently inferior to RA US programs, but that they're inherently
less marketable (and in the case of non-RA U.S. programs *usually*
inferior, which is probably true).
I think Steve concede that in Australia, it's better to get an
Australian degree than a U.S. degree, and that in Japan it's better to
get a Japanese degree, and in the U.K. a British degree, and so forth.
It's not the U.S. that's superior; it's getting the degree from
whatever your country of residence happens to be.
And even here Steve makes exceptions; you'll remember he spoke very
highly of the Spurgeon's College Th.M. program (in the UK), but I think
he'd also say that it's less marketable than a U.S. ATS-accredited
Th.M., at least for a student residing in the U.S. So the issue here
isn't rigor (a tangible point where we'd be in clear disagreement), but
marketability (a fuzzy point I don't feel prepared to argue).
Peace,
TH
lewchuk
> In article <39f6e...@newsa.ev1.net>, lewchuk <wald...@ev1.net> wrote:
>
> > Dr. Levicoff (and some others), appears to have other assumptions:
> > 1) The acquisition of some knowledge, skills and abilities (as least at
> > certain degree levels) can only be accomplished via a certain learning
> > experience regardless of the learnings style of the person (i.e. the
> > residency argument)
> > 2) "Foreign" programs and non-RA US programs are inferior to RA US
programs.
> > (i.e. the RA argument)
>
> While I think you hit the nail on the head with #1, I think #2 is a bit
> off; Steve's argument is not that foreign programs and non-RA programs
> are inherently inferior to RA US programs,
That is not what I would infer when he suggests that RA is the "gold
standard". He has not said that RA is the "gold standard in the US", just
the "gold standard".
> but that they're inherently less marketable
Still an assumption which influences his "gold standard".
(and in the case of non-RA U.S. programs *usually*
> inferior, which is probably true).
>
> I think Steve concede that in Australia, it's better to get an
> Australian degree than a U.S. degree, and that in Japan it's better to
> get a Japanese degree, and in the U.K. a British degree, and so forth.
> It's not the U.S. that's superior; it's getting the degree from
> whatever your country of residence happens to be.
A point I actually agree with... ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. Of course, all
things are never equal and Levicoff and company greatly exagerate the
geographic effect.
>
> And even here Steve makes exceptions;
He is not the most consistant chap.
Karlos Al Lacaye
(snip)
>I think Steve concede that in Australia, it's better to get an
>Australian degree than a U.S. degree, and that in Japan it's better to
>get a Japanese degree, and in the U.K. a British degree, and so forth.
>It's not the U.S. that's superior; it's getting the degree from
>whatever your country of residence happens to be.
Dear Tom,
To a certain extent, I agree with you. In all honestly, I don't feel comfortable
coming back to Costa Rica, Central America, with just foreign degrees. While
this is desirable in most circles there, in some circles it is "not" desirable
at all. That is why I would like to get a hold of a degree from the University
of Belize, Central America. At least, Belize is in Central America as well. Of
course, that is contingent upon the establishment of the distance education
program I have been talking about. Otherwise, I don't know...maybe a Spanish
translation certificate would make me feel that "I belong there"...
Yours,
Karlos Alberto Lacaye
caballe...@myremarq.com
Tom C. Head
> > While I think you hit the nail on the head with #1, I think #2 is a bit
> > off; Steve's argument is not that foreign programs and non-RA programs
> > are inherently inferior to RA US programs,
>
> That is not what I would infer when he suggests that RA is the "gold
> standard". He has not said that RA is the "gold standard in the US", just
> the "gold standard".
I always thought gold was the gold standard, myself.
(Seriously: I think Steve was probably speaking within the context of
U.S. education, and if he wasn't, he was being ridiculous.)
Peace,
TH
diplomat-at-large
Malcolm Jenner
>
>I am grateful to Sheila Danzig for providing me with the source of the
>actual application used by schools to apply for membership in the
>International Association of Universities. I believe that IAU members gets
>one listed in the UNESCO handbook
>http://www.unesco.org/iau/memform.html
>
>Looking at the form, it is clear that much depends on (a) what the schools
>have to say, and (b) whether UNESCO accepts it at face value or does its
>own further investigation. I don't know this, but will certainly be trying
>to find out. It may well be that UNESCO hasn't kept up with the times,
>since until quite recently, they did not need to think about St. Kittsian,
>Barbudan, Norfolkian, or Turks and Caicosian accreditation.
>
>Very conflicting preliminary data from my registrars survey: of 177
>registrars with an opinion, 51 said they usually accept UNESCO in deciding
>whether to accept a degree or credit transfer, 36 said sometimes, 30 said
>occasionally, and 57 said generally they don't rely on it. And, perhaps
>most significantly (so far)., 150 others said their school has no policy on
>UNESCO, or if does, they are not aware of it.
>
>For comparison, 309 said that a regionally accredited residential degree
>was usually acceptable, 18 said sometimes, and no one said unacceptable.
>
>John Bear
>www.degree.net
>
>
Perhaps I can add something from my perspective and experience as an admissions
tutor assessing applicants for places on our various Masters programmes. A
first criterion for graduates from non-UK institutions is that the institution
must be credible in its own country. The second criterion then concerns the
standing of degrees from that instituion when compared to our entry requirement
of the equivalent of a UK good honours degree (i.e. a Bachelor's degree with at
least second class honours). In some countries there is known to be
considerable variation between institutions (e.g. China has over 1000
universities - only some of which are classified as "prestigious" and whose
degrees I can accept). In some countries there is variation between subjects,
even within the same universities. When I receive such applications I
telephone the person who holds the current database of all the recognised
institutions and get specific guidance on the acceptability of the degree held
by the applicant.
For UK universities I know all the real ones (no one has ever tried me with a
fake from UK). I have had a few applications from students with degrees from
US degree mills operating in Pakistan. For US universities I would require a
Master's degree - the US Bachelor's degree is at best only equivalent to the
second year of a UK three-year Bachelor's degree programme.
This process of assessment of qualifications is by no means uniform.
Applicants that I turn down sometimes tell me that they have been offered a
place by another UK university or even by another department in my own
university. I then advise them to accept that offer.
Malcolm S Jenner
Senior Lecturer
School of Computing & IT
University of Wolverhampton
lewchuk
"Malcolm Jenner" <cm1...@wlv.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:8t9l9l$h...@ccuh.wlv.ac.uk...
Be warned Malcolm, around these parts those is fighten words.
Kevin Stewart
Kevin
lewchuk wrote in message <39f86...@newsa.ev1.net>...
SNIPPED