Why DETC?
pcovers
McQueary" <Termin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> This post is directed primarily at Paul Coverstone, but also to
> anyone else who
> cares to comment.
> It has been alleged that DETC and NCA (for instance) accreditation
> guidelines
> are very similar. By extension, I'd imagine that SACS guidelines
> can't be that
> different from either NCA or DETC. If this is the case, why
> would AICS and/or
> LaSalle choose DETC accreditation over SACS?
> Larry
Larry, as much as I would like to know the answer, not knowing how the
guidelines are similar or different makes any assumption on my part
worthless. I mean, it's not like having an opinion about the weather,
These are very specific issues that can be learned and considered. I
just have never done that.
Maybe parts of the DETC guidelines are, in fact, more lenient. Maybe
they're not. Maybe it costs more to get NCA. Maybe they've been told
don't even bother. Maybe it's lots of other things. Whatever it is,
without comparing the two first, I'd be offering an opinion of little
substance.
Paul C.
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Steve Levicoff
> Maybe parts of the DETC guidelines are, in fact, more lenient. Maybe
> they're not. Maybe it costs more to get NCA. Maybe they've been told
> don't even bother. Maybe it's lots of other things. Whatever it is,
> without comparing the two first, I'd be offering an opinion of little
> substance.
>
> Paul C.
Nothing personal, Paul, but you *already* offer opinions of little
substance.
(Relax, dude. Couldn't pass that one up. Now look in the mirror, laugh
at yourself, and then you can go back to laughing at everyone else.)
--
,-~~-.___.
/ | ' \
( ) 0
\_/-, ,----'
==== //
/ \-'~; /~~~(O)
/ __/~| / |
=( _____| (_________|
------------------------------
Steve Levicoff
levi...@ix.netcom.com
http://levicoff.tripod.com
------------------------------
pcovers
<levi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Nothing personal, Paul, but you *already* offer opinions of little
> substance.
> (Relax, dude. Couldn't pass that one up. Now look in the mirror,
> laugh
> at yourself, and then you can go back to laughing at everyone
> else.)
Steve, no offense taken. After five years of the same old same old
(with this august group I expect a little more panache in the DETC
bashing), it rolls right off the back.
Larry McQueary
Larry McQueary
current discussion.
Larry
"pcovers" <pco...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:2a42f762...@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com...
> In article <j29i4.2732$iL4....@news.rdc1.tx.home.com>, "Larry
> McQueary" <Termin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Larry, as much as I would like to know the answer, not knowing how the
> guidelines are similar or different makes any assumption on my part
> worthless. I mean, it's not like having an opinion about the weather,
> These are very specific issues that can be learned and considered. I
> just have never done that.
>
> Maybe parts of the DETC guidelines are, in fact, more lenient. Maybe
> they're not. Maybe it costs more to get NCA. Maybe they've been told
> don't even bother. Maybe it's lots of other things. Whatever it is,
> without comparing the two first, I'd be offering an opinion of little
> substance.
>
Bruce Tait
>
> It has been alleged that DETC and NCA (for instance) accreditation guidelines
> are very similar. By extension, I'd imagine that SACS guidelines can't be that
> different from either NCA or DETC. If this is the case, why would AICS and/or
> LaSalle choose DETC accreditation over SACS?
My guess (and it's just that, a guess), is that the cost is
probably lower for DETC's process than for a regional. I think it's a
shame that DETC is now accrediting questionable schools, it tarnishes
the reputation of DETC, as well as those DETC schools that have good
programs, such as American Military University. And conversely, it
raises the image of schools with shady pasts, such as Andrew Jackson,
who may yet revert to their past. Just my $.02...
Have a great day,
Bruce
Bill Dayson
> This post is directed primarily at Paul
> Coverstone, but also to anyone else who
> cares to comment.
> It has been alleged that DETC and NCA (for
> instance) accreditation guidelines are very
> similar. By extension, I'd imagine that SACS
> guidelines can't be that different from either
> NCA or DETC. If this is the case, why
> would AICS and/or LaSalle choose DETC
> accreditation over SACS?
A few months ago when American Military University was in the SACS
pipeline, I asked Max Jackson to comment on SACS's attitude towards DE.
He never did, which was understandable.
My nonexpert opinion is that SACS is pretty hard nosed towards
stand-alone DE institutions. They ended up rejecting AMU's application,
and earlier Walden had been turned down as well. The latter school
proceeded to move its headquarters to Minneapolis, in the much more
tolerant NCA territory, where it subsequently got accreditation.
But SACS did accredit Max's University of Sarasota, so it is not
*entirely* hostile to DE schools. But probably a bit of politics was
involved, which Max was understandably reluctant to talk about, seeing
as how Sarasota continues to be dependent on SACS's grace.
So it seems to me that if SACS is prepared to reject a quality effort
like AMU, then AICS and LaSalle would have had little chance. They
probably knew that and opted for the less selective DETC.
Bill Dayson
John Bear
> I think it's a
> shame that DETC is now accrediting questionable schools, it tarnishes
> the reputation of DETC, as well as those DETC schools that have good
> programs, such as American Military University.
From my talk with two administrators from American Military University at
the DETC convention in 1998, my sense is that this is exactly why they had
decided to apply for regional accreditation, a process which I believe is
underway.
John Bear
Joseph Wang
Bill Dayson <cis...@webtv.net> wrote:
>My nonexpert opinion is that SACS is pretty hard nosed towards
>stand-alone DE institutions. They ended up rejecting AMU's application,
>and earlier Walden had been turned down as well. The latter school
>proceeded to move its headquarters to Minneapolis, in the much more
>tolerant NCA territory, where it subsequently got accreditation.
That's my impression too. I had a conversation from someone in SACS
in which he mentioned that he thought that NCA's standards were far
too lenient.
One thing that really annoys me is that there real educational issues
that are involved here, but so far this sort of debate is taking place
behind closed doors. I think it would really be healthy if these
sorts of issues were hashed out in the open.
What's really interesting is that one effect of the Internet is that
now the regional accreditors are competing with each other in a way
that they never did before. A student in SACS's operating area can
now easily take courses from a school in NCA's area.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wang Ph.D. Globewide Network Academy
pres...@gnacademy.org FREE Distance Education catalog database
http://www.gnacademy.org Over 20,000 courses and degrees
Bruce Tait
>
> From my talk with two administrators from American Military University at
> the DETC convention in 1998, my sense is that this is exactly why they had
> decided to apply for regional accreditation, a process which I believe is
> underway.
Of all the DETC schools I've looked at (not that the list is
that extensive), I've been most impressed by AMU. I'm not surprised that
they're going for RA, and I'd make a fair wager that they make it.
pcovers
I discussed this subject with AMU several months ago and was told that
they were not unhappy with DETC accreditation but that they could no
longer avoid the credit transfer issue. As with all DETC schools,
credit transfer is problematic. AMU told me that the question came up
too often with students for them to avoid seeking possible solutions.
One of which is seeking RA.
Roland E. Pittman
Are we saying that the standards for accreditation vary from regional accreditor to
regional accreditor? (My impression is that accreditation is about 80% politics
and 20% content with a dab of faith.) It seems to me that all the hoopla about
regional accreditation being the benchmark for quality amounts to nothing. Is
SCACS accreditation superior to NCA accreditation? Is NCA accreditation superior
to DETC? It seems that all those folks who wanted to believe in accreditation now
have a new dilemna. At first it was simply accreditation, then it was U.S. Dept. of
Ed. approved accreditation, next it was regional accreditation, and now regional
accreditation is a bust. Which accreditation do you trust? Accreditation is not
the answer. Education is too complex and varied to judge its quality by a single
set of standards. After all, we are not agreed to what comprises a good education
or a good school.
Isn't it ironic that some of the ng who bashed unaccredited degrees and boasted the
loudest of their accredited degrees received the said degree from NCA accredited DL
schools. Wonder if their degrees would past SACS muster? Just a thought.
Roland E. Pittman
wdh...@my-deja.com
Hey, Roland! They finally gave you a day pass, eh? :-)
To get the issues out in the open, we, on this ng, could dig up as much
info from the agencies themselves & post it. A new forum could be
started.
I don't think uniformity is the answer. Like GAAP (the real one -
Generally Accepted Accounting Principles, which I teach), there is a
variety to choose from. Not every company has to use the same policies
and methods. Same with schools, and agencies. There should be variety
(this is the US), but under an all-encompassing GA Accrediting P.
--
Wm. Dennis Huber
http://wdhuber.tripod.com/
I reserve the right to publicly disclose private
e-mail received in response to this post.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Steve Levicoff
> Gentlemen:
>
> Are we saying that the standards for accreditation vary from regional accreditor to
> regional accreditor? (My impression is that accreditation is about 80% politics
> and 20% content with a dab of faith.) It seems to me that all the hoopla about
> regional accreditation being the benchmark for quality amounts to nothing. Is
> SCACS accreditation superior to NCA accreditation? Is NCA accreditation superior
> to DETC?
No, SACS accreditation is not superior to NCA. Yes, NCA accreditation
is superior to DETC.
With that said, no one ever said that there are not differences between
the regionals. NCA has always been known as the most friendly to
nontraditional programs, although SACS has also accredited
nontraditional programs. A few years ago, there was quite a bit of
controversy surrounding Middle States' tendencies to shove their
policies down institutional throats, resulting in threats by DoEd to
give them the left foot of fellowship. Like any other agency, each of
the regionals have their own personalities, but they are still the prime
standard for institutional accreditation on the whole.
> It seems that all those folks who wanted to believe in accreditation now
> have a new dilemna. At first it was simply accreditation, then it was U.S. Dept. of
> Ed. approved accreditation, next it was regional accreditation, and now regional
> accreditation is a bust. Which accreditation do you trust? Accreditation is not
> the answer. Education is too complex and varied to judge its quality by a single
> set of standards. After all, we are not agreed to what comprises a good education
> or a good school.
Quite right, though as a general principle regional accreditation is
still *the* standard on an institution-wide basis. Notwithstanding
that, even regional accreditation is not enough if one wants to enter
certain fields such as psychology (iun which APA accreditation is a
must), law (APA approval), or nursing (NLN approval), etc.
> Isn't it ironic that some of the ng who bashed unaccredited degrees and boasted the
> loudest of their accredited degrees received the said degree from NCA accredited DL
> schools. Wonder if their degrees would past SACS muster? Just a thought.
Of course they would. SACS may not be as liberal as NCA, but they have
certainly set a precedent in terms of accrediting distance programs.
Would they have accredited the profit-making University of Phoenix?
Sure - after all, they accredited the profit-making University of
Sarasota. Would they have accredited the totally online Jones
International University? Too early to tell - we'll see when a similar
venture pops up within SACS' area. Would they accredit distance
programs based at traditional schools? Of course - the instances in
which they have already done this are too numerous to list here.
kg...@my-deja.com
Bruce Tait <bt...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> My guess (and it's just that, a guess), is that the cost is
> probably lower for DETC's process than for a regional.
(big snip to isolate the point)
We just went through our 10-year NCA re-accreditation last fall and got
our wrist slapped for only having $1.5 million or so in our unreserved
fund balance (rural community college, enrollment 3,000 plus). I would
guess that if an institution were worried about the cost of DETC vs.
NCA accreditation, it probably couldn't pass NCA muster financially.
When I have a chance I'll try to make sense out of the NCA report and
post the highlights in the appropriate thread.
Regards.
Tommy
Tommy
John Bear
> Isn't it ironic that some of the ng who bashed unaccredited degrees and
boasted the
> loudest of their accredited degrees received the said degree from NCA
accredited DL
> schools. Wonder if their degrees would past SACS muster? Just a thought.
Sometimes we forget that a great deal of what we discuss and argue about
in this newsgroup is stuff that is at the very outer edges of higher
education, with the arguments being whether the item is near the edge or
over it.
There were nearly 100,000 doctorates granted in the US in 1998 by
regionally accredited schools. I would be confident in betting that 99% of
them would be acceptable to all six regional agencies.
--
John Bear, co-author, Bears' Guide to Earning Degrees
Non-Traditionally
Roland E. Pittman
> Hey, Roland! They finally gave you a day pass, eh? :-)
>
> --
> Wm. Dennis Huber
> http://wdhuber.tripod.com/
> I reserve the right to publicly disclose private
> e-mail received in response to this post.
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
Nope--it was for three days!
a a
> In article <9003-388...@storefull-245.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
> Bill Dayson <cis...@webtv.net> wrote:
> >My nonexpert opinion is that SACS is pretty hard nosed towards
> >stand-alone DE institutions. They ended up rejecting AMU's application,
> >and earlier Walden had been turned down as well. The latter school
> >proceeded to move its headquarters to Minneapolis, in the much more
> >tolerant NCA territory, where it subsequently got accreditation.
> That's my impression too. I had a conversation from someone in SACS
> in which he mentioned that he thought that NCA's standards were far
> too lenient.
> One thing that really annoys me is that there real educational issues
> that are involved here, but so far this sort of debate is taking place
> behind closed doors. I think it would really be healthy if these
> sorts of issues were hashed out in the open.
> What's really interesting is that one effect of the Internet is that
> now the regional accreditors are competing with each other in a way
> that they never did before. A student in SACS's operating area can
> now easily take courses from a school in NCA's area.
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Joseph Wang Ph.D. Globewide Network Academy
> pres...@gnacademy.org FREE Distance Education catalog database
> http://www.gnacademy.org Over 20,000 courses and degrees
how to contact you ?
It's me , Darius f. GNA ;)