Too Many MBAs
Lawrie Miller
which are the inferior?
lew...@wichita.infi.net wrote:
> I am firmly on the side of those who believe that there is no 1 perfect
> DL MBA program for everyone, that individuals have different
> objectives, needs, resources, etc., which lead them to different
> programs. However, with the number of DL MBAs topping 100 now there is
> undoubtedly a great degree (pardon the pun) of duplication amongst
> programs. Some of these programs, though similar with respect to
> content, price and delivery are often not equal in real / perceived
> quality. In traditional education the existence of programs similar in
> all but quality can be explained by geography. In the distance field
> this is not the case. Therefore, I find it interesting that inferior
> programs without a real competitive differentiation can find a market
> for its product. The only explanation is ignorance... people are aware
> of inferior programs but unaware of the better ones. Hence, the
> mission of this NG... to direct all to the highest quality programs
> which meet their needs.
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Francesco
Francesco.
lew...@wichita.infi.net
Russ Blahetka
the market is being flooded with MBAs (and I'm one of the drips that
contributed to it).
I wonder what the next decade's degree of choice will be?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Russ Blahetka
http://www.blahetka.com/school.shtml
Let your kids sign your report card- get that degree!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Bill Dayson
> However, with the number of DL MBAs
> topping 100 now there is undoubtedly a great
> degree (pardon the pun) of duplication
> amongst programs.
That's for sure. The question I have is one of marginal utility. If
there are already 100 distance MBA programs, what is gained by adding
the 101'st?
Wouldn't you expect the time to come when there would be more benefit
both to a university and to prospective students, in creating a new
program in an underserved field like history?
Sure there are more people who want MBA's, but if you add a new program
you are only gonna attract less than 1% of them. *And* be lost in the
crowd.
But there are *no* distance graduate programs in philosophy in the US,
and as far as I know none in history. So merely by creating one, any
university can have the best distance graduate program in that subject
in the United States! That's a lot more bang for the buck, it would seem
to me.
Bill Dayson
Lawrie Miller
Two equations to consider, Bill.
1) !% of potential DL graduate Business students = 10,000
2) 100% of potential DL graduate Philosophy students = 5
Bill Dayson wrote:
SNIP
John Bear
cis...@webtv.net (Bill Dayson) wrote:
> But there are *no* distance graduate programs in philosophy in the US,
> and as far as I know none in history. So merely by creating one, any
> university can have the best distance graduate program in that subject
> in the United States! That's a lot more bang for the buck, it would seem
> to me.
The external MA in humanities at Cal State Dominguez Hills can be done in
philosophy (the one my wife did) or history, among others. But there
aren't many of them. And the approach Bill suggests is especially good for
marketing, since the market is small (easily reachable) and, typically,
especially eager for something in their narrow field. For instance, when I
worked there, I tried to persuade Pearson to take on a DL Master of Arts
in Museum Management, offered at Leicester University. There were probably
only 10,000 potential students, unlike 10 zillion for an MBA, but I felt
we could attract a significant percentage of those 10,000 and make the
program a success. (Pearson said 'no thanks').
__..._.-.
/.-. '-.)
\', \
| o'--O
\ / |
;._ _\ '-/
.' __ \_______________________________________
.' .' '.| John Bear, Ph.D., Michigan State U) |
/ \ '._,Co-Author, Bearsāļ Guide to Earning |
; '-._ \ Degrees Nontraditionally (13th |
(| /'-.__/ ed.), described at www.degree.net,|
\ __ ,' | sold at www.amazon.com, www.bn.com, |
`/ `\.-'| | and many bookstores. jo...@ursa.net |
| | '-. |_______________________________________|
| '-. __)
\_______)
Thomas Head
> But there are *no* distance graduate programs in philosophy in the US,
> and as far as I know none in history. So merely by creating one, any
> university can have the best distance graduate program in that subject
> in the United States! That's a lot more bang for the buck, it would
> seem to me.
Agreed! Although interested parties could get a MA/Humanities through CSU
Dominguez Hills with a Philosophy or History concentration, or get a M.A.
in History and/or Philosophy customized through Antioch, Vermont College,
Goddard, etc., I have found *no* MA/History or MA/Philosophy as such
entirely through DL from an accredited U.S. university. And the first
regionally accredited 100% nonresident Ph.D. available in the U.S.? A
Ph.D. in Business Administration from Tuoro.
Peace,
Tom
"Being properly distracted for a moment is child's play; being
rightly distracted for a lifetime is an art."
-- Douglas Adams
Lawrie Miller
Problem is, where are the data to support the notion that the
customers are there in sufficient numbers? There *are* data
for the numbers of potential MBA students, and as the MBA
degree becomes de rigueur for managers, that number may
rise substantially higher. 100+ DL MBA programs may seem
excessive today, but may be judged a paltry figure five years
hence.
Philosophy and History graduate students with the wherewithal
to pay for a DL program may be thin on the ground. Few
employers are going to stump up the money. Which institution
will commit resources to create a program when little data is
available to calculate the ROI?
The popularity of MBA programs with students ultimately lies in
their perceived worth as investment vehicles, and to date, this
perception has proved to be well founded. The same cannot
be said for master's programs in Philosophy or History. The
average MBA student can look forward to a career boost
and increased salary after graduation, and no doubt, many
History and Philosophy students reflect on this fact as they
ask the next customer at checkout whether she would prefer
paper or plastic. It will occur to an increasing number of
potential students that such meditation might best be
exercised before committing to such a degree, rather than
after graduation, thus further reducing the pool of potential
DL customers.
Those who commit their organization's money to these kinds
of enterprises seem to know this. It is no surprise therefore
that Pearson said "no thanks" to Dr. Bear's suggestion.
John Bear wrote:
> In article <872-37B...@newsd-241.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
> cis...@webtv.net (Bill Dayson) wrote:
>
> > But there are *no* distance graduate programs in philosophy in the US,
> > and as far as I know none in history. So merely by creating one, any
> > university can have the best distance graduate program in that subject
> > in the United States! That's a lot more bang for the buck, it would seem
> > to me.
>
lew...@wichita.infi.net
programs come in five strata which are generally easy to identify
(although there may be a few debates at the margin).
Cellar Dwellars:
DL MBA programs without regional accreditation. Dr. Bear has stated
that he sees little reason for a person to pursue an unaccredited
bachelors degree due to the plethora of accredited options available...
I think the same can now be said for MBAs.
In the basement:
Virtual universities like Phoenix, Athabasca, etc. It is not that
these programs are necessarily poor but pure virtual universities are
still fighting an uphill battle for acceptance. A non-traditional MBA
degree from a traditional university is a much better alternative and
there are many to choose from.
On the Main Floor:
Lower-tier schools like Cal State Dominguez Hills, Baker College,
Regis, Touro, Charles Sturt, etc. These are legitimate DL programs but
from tradition schools often considered third quartile, without AACSB
accreditation, etc.
Upstairs:
More respected schools like Colorado State, Syracuse, etc. These
schools are usually considered at least 2nd quartile and usually have
AACSB accredited programs.
The Penthouse:
These are distance programs from business considered to be in the top
strata (Heriot Watt, Duke, Pittsburgh, Henley, etc.). Many of these
schools are in the UK for the simple reason that the best in the US
have been slow to adopt the DL model.
My point is, with the plethora of options available in the "penthouse"
and "upstairs", I do not see why anyone would need to go down to the
main floor, the basement or the cellar.
In article <37B3949E...@iowaone.net>,
Francesco <ffa...@iowaone.net> wrote:
> I am with you Lawrie, I'd like to know superiors and inferior DL MBA.
> Francesco.
>
> Lawrie Miller wrote:
>
> > Could you then list which are the superior DL MBA programs and
> > which are the inferior?
> >
> > lew...@wichita.infi.net wrote:
> >
> > > I am firmly on the side of those who believe that there is no 1
perfect
> > > DL MBA program for everyone, that individuals have different
> > > objectives, needs, resources, etc., which lead them to different
> > > programs. However, with the number of DL MBAs topping 100 now
there is
> > > undoubtedly a great degree (pardon the pun) of duplication amongst
albertoc...@my-deja.com
> But there are *no* distance graduate programs in philosophy in the US,
> and as far as I know none in history. So merely by creating one, any
> university can have the best distance graduate program in that subject
> in the United States! That's a lot more bang for the buck, it would
seem
> to me.
>
> Bill Dayson
>
>
What about a distance MS or MA in Economics in the United States? This
distance degree will certainly attract an interesting and a more than
average market segment. As of today, no university is offering such a
distance degree. Is any institution considering this possibility?
Best wishes,
Al Caballero
br...@cnetech.com
> The popularity of MBA programs with students ultimately lies in
> their perceived worth as investment vehicles, and to date, this
> perception has proved to be well founded. The same cannot
> be said for master's programs in Philosophy or History. The
> average MBA student can look forward to a career boost
> and increased salary after graduation, and no doubt, many
> History and Philosophy students reflect on this fact as they
> ask the next customer at checkout whether she would prefer
> paper or plastic. It will occur to an increasing number of
> potential students that such meditation might best be
> exercised before committing to such a degree, rather than
> after graduation, thus further reducing the pool of potential
> DL customers.
You seem to be under the impression that history majors and philosophy
majors (and art majors, and music majors) are earning minimum wage.
You're failing to take into account that many of them are teachers. In
fact, the HUGE market segment of teachers (elementary, junior high,
high school) would be an excellent target audience for a DL degree
program such as the Dominguez Hills Humanities MA, the Regents MLS, or
even the Leicester Archaeology program. However, somebody has to reach
out and contact prospective customers. Promotion is not the strong
suit of most DL programs.
Mike B
br...@cnetech.com
P.S. As for the "paper or plastic" jab, how many of those ambitious
souls do you suppose earned a business degree? Hmmm...?
Lawrie Miller
br...@cnetech.com wrote:
> > The popularity of MBA programs with students ultimately lies in
> > their perceived worth as investment vehicles, and to date, this
> > perception has proved to be well founded. The same cannot
> > be said for master's programs in Philosophy or History. The
> > average MBA student can look forward to a career boost
> > and increased salary after graduation, and no doubt, many
> > History and Philosophy students reflect on this fact as they
> > ask the next customer at checkout whether she would prefer
> > paper or plastic. It will occur to an increasing number of
> > potential students that such meditation might best be
> > exercised before committing to such a degree, rather than
> > after graduation, thus further reducing the pool of potential
> > DL customers.
>
> You seem to be under the impression that history majors and philosophy
> majors (and art majors, and music majors) are earning minimum wage.
In general, the statistics that are available lend support to the view
that they earn significantly less than graduates in other fields.
>
> You're failing to take into account that many of them are teachers.
A profession replete with high paying jobs, no doubt..
> In
> fact, the HUGE market segment of teachers (elementary, junior high,
> high school) would be an excellent target audience for a DL degree
> program such as the Dominguez Hills Humanities MA, the Regents MLS, or
> even the Leicester Archaeology program.
Unfortunately, the huge market in schools is for math and science
graduates.
> However, somebody has to reach
> out and contact prospective customers. Promotion is not the strong
> suit of most DL programs.
I dunno, Mike, have you checked out Heriot-Watt, or Bellevue,
or Regis, or UOP, or National, or Webster, or......................
I'd imagine such schools spend considerable amounts of
cash on market research, and that they are willing to invest
in program disciplines where they think they can make a
buck. That they have not as yet offered master's programs
in History or Philosophy may indicate that their data are
telling them the market is simply not there.
I will agree however, that there may be a place for a niche
player with low overheads which can sustain itself by
bottom feeding on the gaunt pickings of the History and
Philosophy crowd. Such a venture might flourish. Who
knows? And therein lies the rub. I don't know
that any data has been produced that would justify
serious consideration of such a scheme, or the large
investment necessary in money, resources and time
to implement it.
So far, all we have had in support of the proposal has
been its proponents "feelings" that it would fly. Laudable
sentiments, no doubt, but who is going to lay their money
down on intuition alone?
And even if it should come to pass, that the necessary data
are gathered, that there are enough potential DL students
to pay the costs of the program, that the stream of customers
will remain stable, and that a profit can be made, there is still
the issue of ROI. It has to be shown that that money would
not be better spent producing yet another DL MBA program
(a field with an expanding customer base), or used in some
other growth area.
>
>
> P.S. As for the "paper or plastic" jab, how many of those ambitious
> souls do you suppose earned a business degree? Hmmm...?
Well, having earned both a liberal arts degree (Political Science),
and a business degree (both bachelor's, not master's), and
having closely considered the utility of each, I'd have to think
a disproportionate number of those master's graduates packing
groceries or pumping gas, are something other than MBAs.
Note that the "paper or plastic" remark was not a jab at
anyone, merely the judicious use of imagery in pursuit of a
point.
..............
br...@cnetech.com
> > However, somebody has to reach
> > out and contact prospective customers. Promotion is not the strong
> > suit of most DL programs.
>
> I dunno, Mike, have you checked out Heriot-Watt, or Bellevue,
> or Regis, or UOP, or National, or Webster, or......................
All promoting business programs, no doubt. I'm talking chiefly about
getting the word out on Dominguez Hills and similar non-business
programs. Very few people are aware of the CSUDH program, the Regents
MLS, Antioch, etc. On the other hand, there are penguins in Antarctica
that are familiar with Phoenix.
> I will agree however, that there may be a place for a niche
> player with low overheads which can sustain itself by
> bottom feeding on the gaunt pickings of the History and
> Philosophy crowd. Such a venture might flourish. Who
> knows? And therein lies the rub. I don't know
> that any data has been produced that would justify
> serious consideration of such a scheme, or the large
> investment necessary in money, resources and time
> to implement it.
The continued existence of the CSUDH program over the past few decades
is proof that it can be done.
> Well, having earned both a liberal arts degree (Political Science),
> and a business degree (both bachelor's, not master's), and
> having closely considered the utility of each, I'd have to think
> a disproportionate number of those master's graduates packing
> groceries or pumping gas, are something other than MBAs.
> Note that the "paper or plastic" remark was not a jab at
> anyone, merely the judicious use of imagery in pursuit of a
> point.
Yes, but *any* college graduate packing groceries or pumping gas
chooses to do so.
Mike B
br...@cnetech.com
rfr...@surf1.de
>or Regis, or UOP, or National, or Webster, or......................
I am enrolled in the Regis Accredited MBA degree program, and highly
recommend it to anyone who works full time, or has an awkward schedule.
Regis has a unique learning format, and you get graded on a paper a week. I
can honestly say that I have learned a lot during the first course.
Regards,
Rodger
lew...@wichita.infi.net
US. There is a great demand for MBA degrees so the Universities have
hurried to crank out programs to capture student dollars.
Unfortunately, with some schools this has resulted in a "race to the
bottom"... "I can get you a MBA in only 24 months and only 2 class
night a week"... "oh yeah, I can get you a MBA in only 18 months and
only 1 class night a week". The focus has become "making it easy"
rather than producing quality graduates. Therefore, tons of newly
minted MBAs graduate every year from schools interested in seemingly
little more than capturing dollars from students who pay for the hope
that a degree and the skills learned will lead to a more prosperous and
secure future.
In article <Pine.BSF.4.10.99081...@shell9.ba.best.com>,
Russ Blahetka <blah...@blahetka.com> wrote:
> Actually, I think the subject of the post was more appropriate. I
think
> the market is being flooded with MBAs (and I'm one of the drips that
> contributed to it).
>
> I wonder what the next decade's degree of choice will be?
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Russ Blahetka
> http://www.blahetka.com/school.shtml
> Let your kids sign your report card- get that degree!
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
> On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 lew...@wichita.infi.net wrote:
>
> > I am firmly on the side of those who believe that there is no 1
perfect
> > DL MBA program for everyone, that individuals have different
> > objectives, needs, resources, etc., which lead them to different
> > programs. However, with the number of DL MBAs topping 100 now
there is
> > undoubtedly a great degree (pardon the pun) of duplication amongst
> > programs. Some of these programs, though similar with respect to
> > content, price and delivery are often not equal in real / perceived
> > quality. In traditional education the existence of programs
similar in
> > all but quality can be explained by geography. In the distance
field
> > this is not the case. Therefore, I find it interesting that
inferior
> > programs without a real competitive differentiation can find a
market
> > for its product. The only explanation is ignorance... people are
aware
> > of inferior programs but unaware of the better ones. Hence, the
> > mission of this NG... to direct all to the highest quality programs
> > which meet their needs.
> >
> >
lew...@wichita.infi.net
based on capitalist economics... can we get a return on this ???
Schools in the British tradition obviously need to remain financially
viable but with a clear educational mandate and some funding from
government they are able to produce certain DL degrees "because they
need to be available" without the creation of a business plan
beforehand. This is partly why many of the best DL opportunities are
in Canada, the UK and Australia.
In article <7p452n$rs7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
br...@cnetech.com wrote:
> (gimme an s!, gimme an n!, gimme an i!, gimme a p!)
>
> > > However, somebody has to reach
> > > out and contact prospective customers. Promotion is not the
strong
> > > suit of most DL programs.
> >
> > I dunno, Mike, have you checked out Heriot-Watt, or Bellevue,
> > or Regis, or UOP, or National, or Webster, or......................
>
lew...@wichita.infi.net
amazes me that in a NG on "DISTANCE" education that so many individuals
sound like a red-necked hick from Kansas "duh, is it American".
In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.990813...@lance.netdoor.com>,
Thomas Head <t...@netdoor.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Bill Dayson wrote:
>
> > But there are *no* distance graduate programs in philosophy in the
US,
> > and as far as I know none in history. So merely by creating one, any
> > university can have the best distance graduate program in that
subject
> > in the United States! That's a lot more bang for the buck, it would
> > seem to me.
>
> Agreed! Although interested parties could get a MA/Humanities
through CSU
> Dominguez Hills with a Philosophy or History concentration, or get a
M.A.
> in History and/or Philosophy customized through Antioch, Vermont
College,
> Goddard, etc., I have found *no* MA/History or MA/Philosophy as such
> entirely through DL from an accredited U.S. university. And the first
> regionally accredited 100% nonresident Ph.D. available in the U.S.? A
> Ph.D. in Business Administration from Tuoro.
>
> Peace,
>
> Tom
>
> "Being properly distracted for a moment is child's play; being
> rightly distracted for a lifetime is an art."
> -- Douglas Adams
>
>
Bill Dayson
> Problem is, where are the data to support the
> notion that the customers are there in
> sufficient numbers? ...
> Philosophy and History graduate students
> with the wherewithal to pay for a DL program
> may be thin on the ground. ...
There are approximately 150 on-campus philosophy graduate programs in
the United States. History graduate programs are more numerous. Somebody
chooses to attend them. CSUDH's humanities MA has no problem attracting
students. This newsgroup routinely gets questions about programs in
those areas. Doing a bit of market research shouldn't be very hard.
> Few employers are going to stump up the
> money. ...
That probably *is* a reason for the large number of MBA's. They are seen
as profitable for the schools because they can tap into that employer
reimbursement money and command higher fees.
> The popularity of MBA programs with
> students ultimately lies in their perceived
> worth as investment vehicles ...
> The average MBA student can look forward to
> a career boost and increased salary after
> graduation, and no doubt, many History and
> Philosophy students reflect on this fact as
> they ask the next customer at checkout
> whether she would prefer paper or plastic.
Doesn't the value of education *occasionally* extend beyond furthering
one's career prospects? Suppose that everyone was given enough money to
retire immediately. Would all interest in higher education cease?
Personally, my interests in graduate work are 99% driven by my academic
interests. I'm 50 years old, and have enough net worth to be considering
an early retirement. Finally, I have the economic security to pursue my
interests. I don't really care if there is a job for me after
graduation, frankly.
So while an education may well be an 'investment vehicle', one's
'capital gains' may not always be best measured in dollars.
I don't think I'm as atypical as some would think. From art history to
literature, and from history to astronomy, there are people like me,
considered odd even in the halls of higher education, who are actually
motivated by interest in our subjects. (That's perverse, I know.) And
as Lawrie suggests, economic realities often force us to seek careers in
different, more lucrative, fields. ("Paper or plastic"?)
But doesn't that fact suggest that distance education might be
particularly appropriate for us? People who have career and family
commitments, and who don't have the luxury of attending a full time
on-campus program in a subject that has little economic payoff? But who
are unwilling to turn their backs on what they love?
It doesn't have to be a *big* market either. A few hundred graduate
students would be a pretty good sized distance program. What's that, an
average of half a dozen per state? I think that programs in many
underserved academic subjects could attract that level of interest.
The United States has 260 residential degree programs in Classics, at
the bachelor's level. I'm sure that few of these graduates find
professional work in the field, and most are forced to seek jobs
elsewhere. So if even *one* graduate of each bachelor's program is
interested in keeping his or her hand in through distance education,
you've got a market.
> It will occur to an increasing number of
> potential students that such meditation might
> best be exercised before committing to such a
> degree,
That's the issue I think. It's a matter of "philosophy" (horrors!) I am
saying that a market for distance ed programs in underserved subjects
exists. Lawrie seems to be arguing that it *shouldn't* exist.
Bill Dayson
Lawrie Miller
br...@cnetech.com wrote:
> (gimme an s!, gimme an n!, gimme an i!, gimme a p!)
>
> > > However, somebody has to reach
> > > out and contact prospective customers. Promotion is not the strong
> > > suit of most DL programs.
> >
> > I dunno, Mike, have you checked out Heriot-Watt, or Bellevue,
> > or Regis, or UOP, or National, or Webster, or......................
>
> All promoting business programs, no doubt. I'm talking chiefly about
> getting the word out on Dominguez Hills and similar non-business
> programs. Very few people are aware of the CSUDH program, the Regents
> MLS, Antioch, etc. On the other hand, there are penguins in Antarctica
> that are familiar with Phoenix.
Some might feel obliged to point out that CSUDH is "getting the
word out" about its DL MBA program without any apparent
difficulty.
Regents undergraduate programs are well known, and both
those programs and the graduate MLS, utilize the same PR
resources, so far as I know.
Antioch University seem to do a roaring business with their
Psychology and their Management graduate programs.
If Liberal Arts programs at these institutions are not widely
known or discussed, it could be because relatively few people
are all that interested in them.
Now, these programs are designed to appeal to a broad
spectrum of students with differing interests within the
Liberal Arts. These programs have a potential customer
base which is very large in comparison to that of more
focused programs in Philosophy or History. If the more
generalized Liberal Arts programs are having difficulty
finding and maintaining an adequate customer base, what
chance is there that individualized programs will survive?
It is not necessarily a question of poor promotion, more likely it
is that Philosophy and History advanced degree programs are
inherently less marketable. It will have escaped the attention of
few graduate students that few employers are clamoring for job
candidates with these credentials. Even in the teaching profession
there are more applicants than vacancies for History or
Philosophy graduates. The reverse is true for math and science.
graduates. There are the occasional bubbles when teachers in
all disciplines are in demand, but even here, the supply of
LA candidates outstrips demand.
It is not that people ignore philosophy or do not care about
History. It is that, relative to other disciplines, they are a
poor investment of money, and time, and effort, when you
have to put food on the table, and clothes on the kids, and
the first down on a new house.
>
>
> > I will agree however, that there may be a place for a niche
> > player with low overheads which can sustain itself by
> > bottom feeding on the gaunt pickings of the History and
> > Philosophy crowd. Such a venture might flourish. Who
> > knows? And therein lies the rub. I don't know
> > that any data has been produced that would justify
> > serious consideration of such a scheme, or the large
> > investment necessary in money, resources and time
> > to implement it.
>
> The continued existence of the CSUDH program over the past few decades
> is proof that it can be done.
I wonder if this program makes a profit or at least, breaks even.
Again, this Humanities program tells us little about the likely
survival of discipline-specific programs in Philosophy or History.
>
>
> > Well, having earned both a liberal arts degree (Political Science),
> > and a business degree (both bachelor's, not master's), and
> > having closely considered the utility of each, I'd have to think
> > a disproportionate number of those master's graduates packing
> > groceries or pumping gas, are something other than MBAs.
> > Note that the "paper or plastic" remark was not a jab at
> > anyone, merely the judicious use of imagery in pursuit of a
> > point.
>
> Yes, but *any* college graduate packing groceries or pumping gas
>chooses to do so.
In the current lush economic climate in the States, I might agree
with you, but in less prosperous times, that is simply not true.
>
>
> Mike B
> br...@cnetech.com
Bill Dayson
earnings of humanities graduates:
> In general, the statistics that are available
> lend support to the view that they earn
> significantly less than graduates in other
> fields.
I think that may be true. But it's irrelevant. The question here isn't
whether students *should* choose to study the humanities. The question
is whether underserved academic fields should be served with distance
degree programs, instead of adding one more distance MBA to 100+
virtually identical programs.
> Unfortunately, the huge market in schools is
> for math and science graduates.
And that makes my point perfectly. Mathematics is an underserved
subject. I'm not aware of any distance graduate programs in mathematics
(as opposed to statistics) in the United States. Even if Lawrie has some
kind of prejudice against the arts and humanities, just exchange the
words "philosophy and history" for "mathematics".
The question remains: Should a school add the 101'st distance MBA to 100
virtually identical existing programs? Or put in America's first
distance MS in math?
> I'd imagine such schools spend considerable
> amounts of cash on market research, and that
> they are willing to invest in program
> disciplines where they think they can make a
> buck. That they have not as yet offered
> master's programs in History or Philosophy
> may indicate that their data are telling them
> the market is simply not there.
Odd that the market for on-campus programs seems to be there. There are
754 on-campus regionally accredited BA programs in philosophy in the US.
If only *one* graduate of each program is interested in a distance
philosophy graduate program, you have a market. How do the residential
graduate programs survive?
If there are no career opportunities in philosophy besides bagging
groceries, doesn't that imply several things? First, that many thousands
of students are willing to study the subject for some other reason than
financial gain? And second, that many (most?) of them are forced to take
jobs outside their specialty?
That would suggest to me that there is a market for distance education
that can be pursued for avocational intellectual reasons without giving
up more lucrative employment. A graduate student probably is more
willing give up full time employment and to suffer the costs and
inconvenience of on-campus residency if it is going to pay off in career
terms. In other words, subjects like philosophy may be particularly well
suited for distance education.
> there is still the issue of ROI. It has to be
> shown that that money would not be better
> spent producing yet another DL MBA program
> (a field with an expanding customer base), or
> used in some other growth area.
That suggests another "philosophical" question:
Are universities profit-making businesses? Should they exist simply to
maximize the bottom line?
If so, they have some dramatic downsizing to do. Goodbye astronomy,
paleontology, Buddhist studies, English lit, pure mathematics, history,
cognitive psychology, anthropology, geography, art history, music
theory...
Eliminate all of the "underperforming" subjects and redirect the money
to the B-school. Then franchise the sucker all over creation and copy
the University of Phoenix.
Or better yet, junk the university idea entirely and reinvent
yourself... perhaps take yourself public as a web firm... something.com.
This whole thing seems to be about which decision is going to be the
most profitable for a university, which investment leads to the
strongest ROI, measured in strictly monetary terms. But is that what
universities are? Is that what they should be?
My "bottom line" is that I am not convinced that entering an
increasingly crowded and competitive market for distance MBA programs is
a better business choice than showing a bit of entrepreneurship and
producing a distinctive new product. Even when measured in strictly
dollar terms.
But even more than that, I am convinced that this is really more than
just a simple business decision. Universities are a lot more than mere
monetary ROI maximization engines. If they don't treat their on-campus
operation strictly as a profit making business enterprise, why do they
treat their distance offerings that way?
Bill Dayson
Thomas Nixon
lew...@wichita.infi.net wrote:
> Why should anyone really care what country the degree is from ? It
> amazes me that in a NG on "DISTANCE" education that so many individuals
> sound like a red-necked hick from Kansas "duh, is it American".
One purely subjective reason is that, unlike other parts of the world,
distance education is somewhat still in its infancy in terms of
acceptability in the U.S. Although I would say that this is changing, we
certainly still have a way to go.
In terms of practicality, while no one will probably ever ask you whether
your BA from Northern Iowa University was done through seat time or through
distance learning, they might be interested about the time you spent living
in the UK earning your degree from the University of Leicester.
And, yes, there are still plenty of people who look askance at a degree
earned through distance learning. Which is sad, particularly with some of
the great programs out there now.
Tom Nixon
Russ Blahetka
haid. It's more, "izzi "Meric'n?"
Bah Jove, Ah thin' heez gottit!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Russ Blahetka
http://www.blahetka.com/school.shtml
Learn the rules then break some.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
On Sat, 14 Aug 1999 lew...@wichita.infi.net wrote:
> Why should anyone really care what country the degree is from ? It
> amazes me that in a NG on "DISTANCE" education that so many individuals
> sound like a red-necked hick from Kansas "duh, is it American".
>
>
>
MichaelMail
substance, the following exerpted sentiment strikes me as one of the most
important concepts:
_________________________________________________________
That would suggest to me that there is a market for distance education
that can be pursued for avocational intellectual reasons without giving
up more lucrative employment. A graduate student probably is more
willing give up full time employment and to suffer the costs and
inconvenience of on-campus residency if it is going to pay off in career
terms. In other words, subjects like philosophy may be particularly well
suited for distance education.
The thread has been all over the map, much as the kind of conversations that
I have at my local pub! But, like those tavern conversations, there is value
in all sides of the discussion.
I'm about half way through my Athabasca (Canada) MBA, and have enjoyed the
distance learning format immensely. The flexibility of 'open hours' has
really worked for me. And as regards an earlier comment about 'basement
tier'... well, not judging from the talent that I've been exposed to, but as
regards perception of an all-virtual school, this may be the case.
The MBA is for me, at age 47, even moreso than for my employer, as I wanted
to be challenged, having felt that I could 'phone in' much of my job for the
last few years. (And I have no interest in moving on.. it's a good job that
brings me satisfaction about 90% of the time, and incredible benefits that I
balance against moving on. I also don't want to start fresh at this point.
My employer is paying the whole shot as both a perk, a reward for past
services, and to re-energize me - with of course the expectation that the
operation will benefit.)
My BA ('73, Dalhousie, Halifax Canada) was certainly the best three years of
my life - I've never really 'gotten over' the joy of going to school. As an
adult, I both regret and am grateful that I didn't tackle several of the
subjects and issues that now interest me from a more, shall we say, mature
perspective. But I segued into bookselling, and have managed two stores in
private sector, and then a college store for most of the last two decades.
So, I've always been around books, faculty, education and IDEAS. And I've
spent long enough ensuring that the students are all looked after in 'their'
pursuit of knowledge. Now, it's my time.
I am most intrigued by the idea of enrolling in the CSU-Dominguez Hills
external Humanities Masters, at my expense, at the conclusion of my Business
studies. I will be extremely hungry for something other than marketing, IT
initiatives, global pressures, and strategic planning paradigms. The
physical location of the campus means nothing to me, as the only time I'll
likely see it is if I go to the graduation ceremony. I'm interested in the
program for my own edification and not for any concrete career aspirations -
this I'd posit is generally the foundation of liberal arts education. The
Humanities is only a career school for those who go on to teach, but the
rest of us can use this exposure to IDEAS to bring texture to our reading,
our writing, and perhaps even our conversations at the local pub!
As stated, the location is not important to me, but the accessibility and
the accreditation are. The fact that DH is part of a four-decades old group
of state-run schools is important to me. Not all schools can be first-tier,
but most of us can still get a premium education but not at premium prices.
If a similar program was offered DL in Canada, I would opt for that, as it
would be cheaper for me, and the tax receipts would be easier to process!
But I've searched and cannot find one.
When I decided to take an MBA, I didn't make the cut at one of our local
prestigious residential EMBA programs (Simon Fraser U only takes 60
students, and my quantitative wasn't high enough for them). But Athabasca is
more inclusive at the beginning, but then weeds out, as far as I can
determine, as there were frequent notices listing withdrawals in the first
several months. My marks in the first two courses were nothing to boast of,
but I morphed into an 'A' student in the following three classes, and didn't
have to travel in the dead of winter.
Now, from what I can gather, the CSU-DH's HUX program (excellent web-site,
even allowing for some conflicting and out-dated info) looks so, so exciting
to the frustrated 'scholar' that is still residing within me. And I would be
able to work on it during my time. My on-going MBA experiences have reminded
me that I'm the sort of odd person who enjoys writing papers (admittedly
there is much angst, procrastination, and self-flagellation during the
process), and I find this a 'good' stress. I like working in my study with
the pc, the books, and then sweating out trying to 'connect' the dots of the
intellectual exercise.
I actually find that I enjoy my work more, I enjoy my personal life more. A
return to school, albeit DL, has brought numerous, qualitative rewards to my
life, and I would be surprised if this feeling ended when I achieve the MBA.
I guess it's like beer and potato chips... more, more, more are required...
single helpings won't do.
Generall, I'd like to hear more about life-affirming experiences via DL.
Specifically, I'd also like to hear more about the CH Hux program from those
who are/have experienced it. It sounds like a solid, challenging experience.
And if there are similar DL programs that I can use for comparison purposes
(other than the Regents one... I've reviewed their website), please advise.
Now, while I said that I'm not interested in the HUX program for career
reasons, I also don't think it would be detrimental to have two Masters
degrees if I do go into teaching Communications or Marketing courses here at
the Institute's night business school. And I've always thought that I had at
least one book in me, but I feel a real lacking in Humanities/Liberal
Studies area... my undergrad degree just wasn't enough.
I hope that I've added some value to this discussion.
With thanks
Michael in Vancouver, Canada
jonath...@my-deja.com
Think about that we have so many potential students
for MBA programs. Some of them want totally on-line
programs. Some of them want combined in-class/on-line
programs. Some people don't like 100% on-line because
they want a chance to discuss with the professors
in person about some realistic problem in our daily
life. (This is the same thing as even though we have
Amazon.com, still a lot of people go to bookstore
to buy books. They have computer too.) But they do
want the distance learning option in case that they
can not go to class every semester.
Should we say that USA has too many universities?
There are about 2000 four year colleges and
universities around the country. But different
college meet different students' need. If they
exist, there must be some reason why they can survive.
J.
--
Jonnie's Distance Learning Page
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Haven/2386/distance.html
John Bear
> If they
> exist, there must be some reason why they can survive.
In the US, between fall 1997 and fall 1998, at least 23
regionally-accredited colleges and universities went out of business or
were merged into other schools. That's more than many countries have. This
was not an unusual year in that regard, either. I think a lot of schools
in financial trouble look to distance learning and internet courses as a
means of financial salvation, and I think that notion grows less realistic
with every passing day.
Schools are going to have to get better at (a) marketing themselves, and
(b) coming up with what the ad biz calls USP -- their "unique selling
proposition" that sets a given DL MBA, for instance, apart from the other
106.
Heriot-Watt continues to prosper (I believe it is still the largest MBA in
the US) in large part because it remains the only major MBA (listed in the
Economist's 'world's best...' book, etc.) that does not require a
Bachelor's degree.
,===,._
| `",
| /
,-..-"-.=-,,_/
/,- \.""-`\ )_
\_ - '--' \
/ 0 __0 7_/
|/ _ (__) \ /`| John Bear, Ph.D.
|/(@) |` _.-"\-; '. (Michigan State U)
\ # \/ /'_.-" \ \ `)\ Co-author, Bearsāļ Guide
.="#,_ __ _,'` ;-'-.`) to Earning Degrees
__`;.#/|/ \/ \. | Nontraditionally (13th ed)
/` # | () |\ _.-"`` jo...@ursa.net
| .--# |'--' `-`\|-'` (Don't worry, I'll tire of
\ / `)\ `./ \| this fairly soon...)
'. | .-#\ \ \ \
`\__/# \ |_ /`-. /|
/ # \|`-` . ` }
/ .#-, | ; ,}
/ / # `' , .}
/ /`\ # _,-'
//` `#_ ,--'{
(( _,;` { }
jgs `""` / } {
,-'` } `-._
.' _,-``, `\
(_(_(_.' `-.__)_)/
--
John Bear, Ph.D. (Michigan State University, 1966)
Co-Author, Bears' Guide (13th edition) described
at http://www.degree.net, and sold at www.amazon.com
or www.barnesandnoble.com, bookstores, and www.tenspeed.com.
Lawrie Miller
Bill Dayson wrote:
> Lawrie Miller says:
>
> > Problem is, where are the data to support the
> > notion that the customers are there in
> > sufficient numbers? ...
>
> > Philosophy and History graduate students
> > with the wherewithal to pay for a DL program
> > may be thin on the ground. ...
>
> There are approximately 150 on-campus philosophy graduate programs in
> the United States. History graduate programs are more numerous. Somebody
> chooses to attend them. CSUDH's humanities MA has no problem attracting
> students. This newsgroup routinely gets questions about programs in
> those areas.
Humanities encompasses a far larger group of potential
DL students than either History and Philosophy disciplines
alone. The point at issue here is whether or not sufficient
critical mass exists to warrant dedicated Philosophy and
History distance learning programs.
> Doing a bit of market research shouldn't be very hard.
If not, it likely has already been done. Wonder what the
figures show. Wonder what happens when the numbers
are crunched and ROI calculated. Wonder why, if such
programs *are* viable, none exist.
"Viable" in this context necessarily includes consideration
that, not only can a buck be made, but that more bucks
can be made producing these programs than other
programs.
>
>
> > Few employers are going to stump up the
> > money. ...
>
> That probably *is* a reason for the large number of MBA's. They are seen
> as profitable for the schools because they can tap into that employer
> reimbursement money and command higher fees.
>
> > The popularity of MBA programs with
> > students ultimately lies in their perceived
> > worth as investment vehicles ...
>
> > The average MBA student can look forward to
> > a career boost and increased salary after
> > graduation, and no doubt, many History and
> > Philosophy students reflect on this fact as
> > they ask the next customer at checkout
> > whether she would prefer paper or plastic.
>
> Doesn't the value of education *occasionally* extend beyond furthering
> one's career prospects?
Yes, but we are discussing the viability of DL Philosophy and
History graduate programs in a competitive market, not
whether education has value that transcends the market
(which, I am in no doubt, it does).
> Suppose that everyone was given enough money to
> retire immediately.
A supposition devoutly to be wished.
> Would all interest in higher education cease?
No, the reverse would be true, but, once again, the nub of
the issue is whether there are enough students out there
willing to cough up the money and pay the market price
for Philosophy and History graduate programs.
>
>
> Personally, my interests in graduate work are 99% driven by my academic
> interests. I'm 50 years old, and have enough net worth to be considering
> an early retirement. Finally, I have the economic security to pursue my
> interests. I don't really care if there is a job for me after
> graduation, frankly.
And if there are enough people out there like Bill, these
programs will be viable. If institutions find it more profitable
to invest their DL dollars in these programs than in other
programs, then History and Philosophy have a bright
future in the distance learning environment. You will note
that currently, no such programs exist. Why might this be?
>
>
> So while an education may well be an 'investment vehicle', one's
> 'capital gains' may not always be best measured in dollars.
Well, here I agree with you completely. However, those
charged with the responsibility of resource allocation at
our many institutions of higher learning are apparently of
a different mind, since none have to date, thought it
prudent to pioneer graduate Philosophy or History
distance learning programs.
>
>
> I don't think I'm as atypical as some would think. From art history to
> literature, and from history to astronomy, there are people like me,
> considered odd even in the halls of higher education, who are actually
> motivated by interest in our subjects. (That's perverse, I know.) And
> as Lawrie suggests, economic realities often force us to seek careers in
> different, more lucrative, fields. ("Paper or plastic"?)
>
> But doesn't that fact suggest that distance education might be
> particularly appropriate for us? People who have career and family
> commitments, and who don't have the luxury of attending a full time
> on-campus program in a subject that has little economic payoff? But who
> are unwilling to turn their backs on what they love?
Absolutely. And if there is a critical mass, and a buck can be
better made there than elsewhere, providers will fall over one
another to satisfy the need.
>
>
> It doesn't have to be a *big* market either. A few hundred graduate
> students would be a pretty good sized distance program. What's that, an
> average of half a dozen per state? I think that programs in many
> underserved academic subjects could attract that level of interest.
Yes, a niche player might do quite well, but it is speculation
until the numbers are run and ROI calculated.
>
>
> The United States has 260 residential degree programs in Classics, at
> the bachelor's level. I'm sure that few of these graduates find
> professional work in the field, and most are forced to seek jobs
> elsewhere. So if even *one* graduate of each bachelor's program is
> interested in keeping his or her hand in through distance education,
> you've got a market.
It could well be, and if it is so, people with imagination and
experience will come along to exploit the opportunity. They
are already here. John Bear approached Pearson with a
similar argument and proposal but was rebuffed. If he or
another broker of like conviction approach Bellevue or
UoP, or other providers, we could see it come to pass.
For now, and until we have hard data, any alleged viability
is mere speculation.
>
>
> > It will occur to an increasing number of
> > potential students that such meditation might
> > best be exercised before committing to such a
> > degree,
>
> That's the issue I think. It's a matter of "philosophy" (horrors!) I am
> saying that a market for distance ed programs in underserved subjects
> exists. Lawrie seems to be arguing that it *shouldn't* exist.
No, Lawrie is arguing that in a free market, there are no
under served subjects that remain under served for long.
Lawrie is saying that "underserved subjects" implies demand
outstrips supply, and that this is a situation that cannot long
endure as it has endured in the case of Philosophy and
History DL graduate programs.
Lawrie points out there is no hard evidence a critical mass
of potential distance learning students exists that would
warrant hard cash being risked on such a venture, and is
suggesting that hard data replace enthusiastic speculation.
Lawrie reiterates he is a Liberal Arts graduate who knows
the value of a Liberal Arts education, but thinks it important
we address the hard issues rather than wax lyrical about
the conjunction of Philosophy and History and Distance
Learning.
>
>
> Bill Dayson
Lawrie Miller
errors.
Bill Dayson wrote:
> Here's Chapter Two of my "Arguing with Lawrie Miller". He says regarding
> earnings of humanities graduates:
>
> > In general, the statistics that are available
> > lend support to the view that they earn
> > significantly less than graduates in other
> > fields.
>
> I think that may be true. But it's irrelevant.
Well, it was a response to a comment alleging I thought all
Philosophy and History graduates were earning minimum wage.
I notice you managed to lose that reference and thereby quote
my response out of context. Your cut 'n' paste privileges are
hereby withdrawn.
> The question here isn't
> whether students *should* choose to study the humanities. The question
> is whether underserved academic fields should be served with distance
> degree programs, instead of adding one more distance MBA to 100+
> virtually identical programs.
No, the question is whether Philosophy and History are in fact
under served at all. I later developed an argument that the
reason for a lack of demand might be poor relative (economic)
utility.
>
>
> > Unfortunately, the huge market in schools is
> > for math and science graduates.
>
> And that makes my point perfectly. Mathematics is an underserved
> subject.
No, Bill, mathematics teachers are in demand, not DL
mathematics graduate programs. I does not follow that
there should be a demand for DL graduate math programs
because there is a demand for math teachers.
> I'm not aware of any distance graduate programs in mathematics
> (as opposed to statistics) in the United States. Even if Lawrie has some
> kind of prejudice against the arts and humanities, just exchange the
> words "philosophy and history" for "mathematics".
Again, the market is for math teachers in schools, not math
DL programs, and as a Liberal Arts graduate, I am pro
the arts and pro the humanities, but dreams and reason
must balance in the end.
>
>
> The question remains: Should a school add the 101'st distance MBA to 100
> virtually identical existing programs? Or put in America's first
> distance MS in math?
No, the question is whether there is sufficient demand for *any*
given DL program. If there is, someone will provide it. If there
is not, no one will provide it (unless it is subsidized).
The nth DL MBA program exists because those doing the
numbers determine that is where they can best make a profit
(usually for non profit institutions).
The nth+1 MBA will be produced for the same reason,
and so on until the market is saturated and supply matches
demand (a bit Econ 101, I know, but best kept simple here).
>
>
> > I'd imagine such schools spend considerable
> > amounts of cash on market research, and that
> > they are willing to invest in program
> > disciplines where they think they can make a
> > buck. That they have not as yet offered
> > master's programs in History or Philosophy
> > may indicate that their data are telling them
> > the market is simply not there.
>
> Odd that the market for on-campus programs seems to be there. There are
> 754 on-campus regionally accredited BA programs in philosophy in the US.
> If only *one* graduate of each program is interested in a distance
> philosophy graduate program, you have a market.
It could be that you are right, but we need the data, and I would
again caution that the fact that there are no programs DL
programs now, is not a good omen.
> How do the residential
> graduate programs survive?
They survive because there is a market for them, or
because they are subsidized.
>
>
> If there are no career opportunities in philosophy besides bagging
> groceries, doesn't that imply several things? First, that many thousands
> of students are willing to study the subject for some other reason than
> financial gain? And second, that many (most?) of them are forced to take
> jobs outside their specialty?
Some choose Philosophy to meet chicks and hang out with
interesting people (nothing wrong with that). Some do not
have any real clue about what career they'd like to pursue,
park themselves in grad school, and choose philosophy
with the vague notion they might find themselves (a completely
understandable impulse). A minority are deeply committed to
the discipline, pursue it for its own sake, and hang the
financial consequences (though they too like to meet
chicks and hang out with interesting people).
That applies to on-campus study. Distance learning will not
attract the fist two groups detailed above. You are left with
a much smaller core, of which only a fraction will be interested
in distance learning.
>
>
> That would suggest to me that there is a market for distance education
> that can be pursued for avocational intellectual reasons without giving
> up more lucrative employment. A graduate student probably is more
> willing give up full time employment and to suffer the costs and
> inconvenience of on-campus residency if it is going to pay off in career
> terms. In other words, subjects like philosophy may be particularly well
> suited for distance education.
>
> > there is still the issue of ROI. It has to be
> > shown that that money would not be better
> > spent producing yet another DL MBA program
> > (a field with an expanding customer base), or
> > used in some other growth area.
>
> That suggests another "philosophical" question:
> Are universities profit-making businesses? Should they exist simply to
> maximize the bottom line?
I think that certain disciplines should be subsidized in the interests
of "the greater social good", but I am uncomfortable choosing, or
allowing others to choose, what The Social Good might be, and
what disciplines should be exempt from paying their way.
>
>
> If so, they have some dramatic downsizing to do. Goodbye astronomy,
> paleontology, Buddhist studies, English lit, pure mathematics, history,
> cognitive psychology, anthropology, geography, art history, music
> theory...
No, these subsidies exist in the traditional setting, but you seem
to be suggesting they be extended to distance learning. I'd like
to do a DL master's in International Relations. It is unlikely I
will ever apply the knowledge in any practical way, but I think
you should chip in a few thousand dollars anyway. Will you
help me, Bill? That question is asked of you every year when
you file your Federal and State tax returns. Of course, if you
refuse to help for long enough, men with guns and handcuffs
will come, and ruin your day.
All of the disciplines you list are worthwhile and contribute
to a civilized society, but why should you or I have to put
our hand in our pockets to help others study online
Buddhist Studies, Music Theory, or Art History?
>
>
> Eliminate all of the "underperforming" subjects and redirect the money
> to the B-school. Then franchise the sucker all over creation and copy
> the University of Phoenix.
When I stop laughing I'll try to answer.......................
Maybe some subjects should be eliminated as formal
independent programs. The discipline will be kept
alive by those interested, but why should we have
a program for every interest? Why does the working
stiff have to pay to subsidize scholarly investigation of
every esoteric nook and cranny of human existence?
>
>
> Or better yet, junk the university idea entirely and reinvent
> yourself... perhaps take yourself public as a web firm... something.com.
>
> This whole thing seems to be about which decision is going to be the
> most profitable for a university, which investment leads to the
> strongest ROI, measured in strictly monetary terms. But is that what
> universities are? Is that what they should be?
No it isn't, Bill, but I still don't want to pay for some guy to
do a DL program in Philosophy so he can find his inner self.
I wish him well, but the buck stops here, in my pocket.
>
>
> My "bottom line" is that I am not convinced that entering an
> increasingly crowded and competitive market for distance MBA programs is
> a better business choice than showing a bit of entrepreneurship and
> producing a distinctive new product. Even when measured in strictly
> dollar terms.
Clearly, those with the data and making the decisions *are*
sure (duck while the 110th DL MBA is launched).
But, you could be right, and I address that issue in a
previous post.
>
>
> But even more than that, I am convinced that this is really more than
> just a simple business decision. Universities are a lot more than mere
> monetary ROI maximization engines. If they don't treat their on-campus
> operation strictly as a profit making business enterprise, why do they
> treat their distance offerings that way?
This sounds like an elitist slippery slope. I hope profit
based higher education becomes the norm rather than the
exception, with limited subsidies provided to less
popular disciplines. The practice of requiring that DL
programs be profitable may become the dominant ethos
in higher education as we shift from traditional bricks and
mortar institutions to networked learning centers in the
next few decades.
Whooshhh! The 111th DL MBA is launched.
..
>
>
> Bill Dayson
lew...@wichita.infi.net
In article <Pine.BSF.4.10.9908141410290.27545-
100...@shell9.ba.best.com>,
Russ Blahetka <blah...@blahetka.com> wrote:
> No, no, no, no...... You need to form the words more in the back of
the
> haid. It's more, "izzi "Meric'n?"
>
> Bah Jove, Ah thin' heez gottit!
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Russ Blahetka
> http://www.blahetka.com/school.shtml
> Learn the rules then break some.
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
> On Sat, 14 Aug 1999 lew...@wichita.infi.net wrote:
>
> > Why should anyone really care what country the degree is from ? It
> > amazes me that in a NG on "DISTANCE" education that so many
individuals
> > sound like a red-necked hick from Kansas "duh, is it American".
> >
> >
> >
> > In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.9908131612060.29286-
100...@lance.netdoor.com>,
> > Thomas Head <t...@netdoor.com> wrote:
> > > On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Bill Dayson wrote:
> > >
> > > > But there are *no* distance graduate programs in philosophy in
the
lew...@wichita.infi.net
contribute to its success:
1) No residency required.
2) Exam based which, although extremely difficult, increases
flexibility compared to programs where assignments are due periodically.
3) Full integration between full-time, part-time and distance modes...
there is no real question whether the distance program equals the full
time program.
In article <john-14089...@coat48.ppp.lmi.net>,
Dan Snelson
(Philosophy as an example) do not translate well to distance learning. Too
much "gray" to try to teach long distance, and quite frankly to much opinion
instead of fact! I do agree that Philosophy will not help when you are
bagging groceries, I mean to they have to WANT to be bagged! With a nice
Philosophy Degree what do you do except train new Philosophy majors who
learn and train..... close as we will get to perpetual motion.
Dan Snelson
Lawrie Miller wrote in message <37B662D3...@ix.netcom.com>...
Lawrie Miller
I'd have thought Philosophy *the* ideal subject for the medium.
Unless you were referring to the comment about the need of many
student practitioners of the art to meet chicks and hang out in bars
with interesting people.
Occurs to me that this may be the only justification necessary for
doing a Philosophy degree, not to mention the only reason. In
which case, you're right, Philosophy would not map well to DL.
Dan Snelson wrote:
> I think you both might be missing a point, and that is some subjects
> (Philosophy as an example) do not translate well to distance learning. Too
> much "gray" to try to teach long distance, and quite frankly to much opinion
> instead of fact! I do agree that Philosophy will not help when you are
> bagging groceries, I mean to they have to WANT to be bagged! With a nice
> Philosophy Degree what do you do except train new Philosophy majors who
> learn and train..... close as we will get to perpetual motion.
SNIP
Dan Snelson
and sitting at home alone just does not seem to be the best way to study the
subject. I AM currently in that process and find NON TRADTITIONAL is not
working well compared to subjects that are more yes/no black/white. way to
much "If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it did it make a noise."
for distance study. And I want to know what a Philosophy major is trained
for as an occupation.
Dan Snelson, CPO, FAAOP
Lawrie Miller wrote in message <37B73615...@ix.netcom.com>...
I'd have thought Philosophy *the* ideal subject for the medium.
Unless you were referring to the comment about the need of many
student practitioners of the art to meet chicks and hang out in bars
with interesting people.
Occurs to me that this may be the only justification necessary for
doing a Philosophy degree, not to mention the only reason. In
which case, you're right, Philosophy would not map well to DL.
Dan Snelson wrote:
> I think you both might be missing a point, and that is some subjects
> (Philosophy as an example) do not translate well to distance learning.
Too
> much "gray" to try to teach long distance, and quite frankly to much
opinion
> instead of fact! I do agree that Philosophy will not help when you are
> bagging groceries, I mean to they have to WANT to be bagged! With a
nice
> Philosophy Degree what do you do except train new Philosophy majors
who
> learn and train..... close as we will get to perpetual motion.
SNIP