phantom
Brize
I'm reading and reading... and yet I'm just at the beginning :)
In a dream I "liquified" my body to some kind of black sticky fluid
(like oil) and then 'stuck' to a shadow in a wall. I somehow know I
have this 'idea' from waking state and it got into this dream,
somehow, but I can't remember where I have this from... I called it
'phantom'... does somebody know where I probably got this from?
(note: it was before I saw 'Spawn' or 'Terminator 2', and further it
was different in both movies)
PS: in rpg (I played a lot of DSA, AD&D and GURPS) there is a skill
("hide in shadows") but it has nothing to do with the 'liquid'...
Is there a comic or cartoon with something like this???
ciotog
(Er, this is the introduction that I use in a social newsgroup, so I
may accidentally use it here too. Please don't take offence :) )
>In a dream I "liquified" my body to some kind of black sticky fluid
>(like oil) and then 'stuck' to a shadow in a wall. I somehow know I
>have this 'idea' from waking state and it got into this dream,
>somehow, but I can't remember where I have this from... I called it
>'phantom'... does somebody know where I probably got this from?
I can think of a couple of examples that are similar, but generally
they're associated with evilness. The entities in "The Ghost" (with
Patrick Swaze, Demi Moore, Whoopie Goldburg) who drag the spirit of
someone going to Hell flow out of the shadows.
I don't know much about the 1930's version of The Shadow, but I recall
in the '94 movie (with Alec Baldwin) the Shadow flows in and out of
existence, but not so much in a liquid fashion (although the flowing
of mist or smoke is very similar to liquid, just in 3 dimensions). He
doesn't use it to hide in the shadows, though, but I would imagine
that he would hide in the shadow of the body he's controlling.
On a side note, I read a short story once where the protagonist
started seeing things in people's shadows. Basically the shadow took
on the characteristics of what the person was really like (eg
goatlike, donkeylike, devilish, etc).
--
Chris (Ciotóg) Craig
http://www.ciotog.net
Brize
>I can think of a couple of examples that are similar, but generally
>they're associated with evilness. The entities in "The Ghost" (with
>Patrick Swaze, Demi Moore, Whoopie Goldburg) who drag the spirit of
>someone going to Hell flow out of the shadows.
Yes, I saw this movie but it was not the same thing. I already thought
of it and had to state that there are great differences.
>I don't know much about the 1930's version of The Shadow (...)
I didn't see this for sure, so it can't be it.
Further i want to thank Tormod, who suggested an episode of X-Files...
but I don't see X-Files, I don't like it :)
Thanks again to all... I'm going to navigate a bit in ciotog's site
now :)
BlueboyX
>
>I didn't see this for sure, so it can't be it.
lol nobody did. It was a radio show. Anyway, he was a super hypnotist (to the
point of it being basically magical) and could walk righ into a room and even
if someone directly looked right at him they would never 'see' him, or rather
register in their brains that he was there. He wasn't invisible, but his
abilities made him pretty close to it.
"Never, never suspect the dreams within the dreams of dreaming children."
~The Amazon Quartet
Remove 'Zspam' to send email replies.
Brize
>Just out of interest, did you see yourself "liquifying" or did
>you feel it from your point of view?
I looked at my hands and got lucid, then I continued to focus them and
to turn them around. At some point I decided (but I don't know why) to
get liquid. I became black and glossy, then the definition was lost
and my fingers were 'wobbly'. I didn't 'feel' anything different, it
was just the exterior that changed. When I was suck into the shadow
(because I wanted to) I was feeling 'flat' and attached to the wall. I
was really sticky :)
Byez Brize
http://www.geocities.com/geobrize/mela/cover.htm
(click "enter" below the ICQ indicator)
ciotog
>>>I don't know much about the 1930's version of The Shadow (...)
>>
>>I didn't see this for sure, so it can't be it.
>
>lol nobody did. It was a radio show. Anyway, he was a super hypnotist (to the
>point of it being basically magical) and could walk righ into a room and even
>if someone directly looked right at him they would never 'see' him, or rather
>register in their brains that he was there. He wasn't invisible, but his
>abilities made him pretty close to it.
I'm pretty sure Brize snipped the part he was really replying to,
about the movie :)
At any rate, the movie was somewhat different from the radio show
then, wasn't it? I was sure that the Shadow had a different profile
than Alec Baldwin, which would indicate that he was controlling the
body.
Of course this also isn't much like Brize was talking about, but it
_is_ a possible source that he used as an inspiration.
I would be very surprised to find that someone hadn't thought of it
before, though (turning to a black liquid and hiding in the shadows),
since it sounds familiar. Maybe in an episode of Star Trek?
ciotog
>On Fri, 02 Jun 2000 17:06:40 GMT, cio...@canada.com (ciotog) wrote:
>
>>I can think of a couple of examples that are similar, but generally
>>they're associated with evilness. The entities in "The Ghost" (with
>>Patrick Swaze, Demi Moore, Whoopie Goldburg) who drag the spirit of
>>someone going to Hell flow out of the shadows.
>
>Yes, I saw this movie but it was not the same thing. I already thought
>of it and had to state that there are great differences.
I was going to ask you - when you did this in your dream, what was
your intent? To hide from something that was after you, to spy on
something, or did you have sinister motives?
>>I don't know much about the 1930's version of The Shadow (...)
>
>I didn't see this for sure, so it can't be it.
It's a little further from what you were talking about, anyway.
>Further i want to thank Tormod, who suggested an episode of X-Files...
>but I don't see X-Files, I don't like it :)
>
>Thanks again to all... I'm going to navigate a bit in ciotog's site
>now :)
Nothing there on dreaming, unfortunately, but I may have something to
say about it in the future :)
Brize
>I would be very surprised to find that someone hadn't thought of it
>before, though (turning to a black liquid and hiding in the shadows),
>since it sounds familiar. Maybe in an episode of Star Trek?
Oh my... I've seen nearly all Star Trek episodes, the older ones with
Scotty and Spock, when I was a child... I also saw a lot of comic
strips (Tom & Jerry, Popeye, ... and many more)... so... probably the
source lies somewhere in these "TV-perceptions", but I think I will
never know from where exactly (and on the other side it isn't so
important, in the end...)
But thank you for the try :)
Brize
>I was going to ask you - when you did this in your dream, what was
>your intent? To hide from something that was after you, to spy on
>something, or did you have sinister motives?
I wanted to hide, but not to escape, just for execise. I thought
something like "this is a good moment to exercise hiding, so if it is
needed in a dream I may do it, even if I'm not lucid" (I'm convinced
that 'exercising' in a lucid dream may give 'tools' for non-lucid
dreams)... this is my personal theory, no proof at all :)
When I 'detached' from the wall I also was not 'flat' anymore. I
jumped on the roof of a house (8 or 10 meters high) and saw into a
window of a room (I lost a bit of lucidity and of control, I think).
There was a man watching TV, and I knew he would get angry because of
my 'invasion' of his privacy. So I hided in the shadow again and moved
away without making him upset...
Generally I wear a black leather battle-suit (very similar to that in
"Lost in Space", recent remake, or the crow).
Does anybody notice it's clothes in lucid dreams? Mine are
'defensive', and in fact I still don't feel too confident with the
dream-surroundings (despite years of practice...). I think I will try
to get completely naked in my next lucid dream :)))
>Nothing there on dreaming, unfortunately, but I may have something to
>say about it in the future :)
I've seen the programs page. Interesting "Aggregation model" ;)
ciotog
>On Sat, 03 Jun 2000 20:00:01 GMT, cio...@canada.com (ciotog) wrote:
>
>>I was going to ask you - when you did this in your dream, what was
>>your intent? To hide from something that was after you, to spy on
>>something, or did you have sinister motives?
>
>I wanted to hide, but not to escape, just for execise. I thought
>something like "this is a good moment to exercise hiding, so if it is
>needed in a dream I may do it, even if I'm not lucid" (I'm convinced
>that 'exercising' in a lucid dream may give 'tools' for non-lucid
>dreams)... this is my personal theory, no proof at all :)
There have been studies done of athletes who's skills improved as much
by doing training in their heads as much as those who actually train
(with a control group who did neither, which showed no improvement).
>When I 'detached' from the wall I also was not 'flat' anymore. I
>jumped on the roof of a house (8 or 10 meters high) and saw into a
>window of a room (I lost a bit of lucidity and of control, I think).
>There was a man watching TV, and I knew he would get angry because of
>my 'invasion' of his privacy. So I hided in the shadow again and moved
>away without making him upset...
Ah, so then you weren't in complete control of the dream, then.
Otherwise the guy would react whichever way you wanted him to.
>Generally I wear a black leather battle-suit (very similar to that in
>"Lost in Space", recent remake, or the crow).
In multiple dreams? I don't think I ever noticed what I was wearing in
dreams (unless I'm naked, of course).
>Does anybody notice it's clothes in lucid dreams? Mine are
>'defensive', and in fact I still don't feel too confident with the
>dream-surroundings (despite years of practice...). I think I will try
>to get completely naked in my next lucid dream :)))
Of course what's the point of getting naked unless you have some sex
;)
>>Nothing there on dreaming, unfortunately, but I may have something to
>>say about it in the future :)
>
>I've seen the programs page. Interesting "Aggregation model" ;)
There are some other forms of the same thing (ballistic aggregation,
freeform clumping, etc) which I think I'll work on next. I'm focusing
on things that you don't find elsewhere. How many fractal generators
or Games of Life do we really need, anyway?
Brize
>>I wanted to hide, but not to escape, just for execise. I thought
>>something like "this is a good moment to exercise hiding, so if it is
>>needed in a dream I may do it, even if I'm not lucid" (I'm convinced
>>that 'exercising' in a lucid dream may give 'tools' for non-lucid
>>dreams)... this is my personal theory, no proof at all :)
>
>There have been studies done of athletes who's skills improved as much
>by doing training in their heads as much as those who actually train
>(with a control group who did neither, which showed no improvement).
<G> I meant to train for other dreams. I never thought to get a
phantom in real life :) (I also know you didn't mean that, just
kidding :))
>>(snip)
>
>Ah, so then you weren't in complete control of the dream, then.
>Otherwise the guy would react whichever way you wanted him to.
In fact I prefer to observe as much as possible. I never even tried to
make others 'do' things I wanted them to. I'll explore this in future,
now that I have more 'lucid spare time' through induction.
>>Generally I wear a black leather battle-suit (very similar to that in
>>"Lost in Space", recent remake, or the crow).
>
>In multiple dreams? I don't think I ever noticed what I was wearing in
>dreams (unless I'm naked, of course).
I wear this suit nearly always. Not always but... well, very very
often in lucid dreams.
>>>Nothing there on dreaming, unfortunately, but I may have something to
>>>say about it in the future :)
>>
>>I've seen the programs page. Interesting "Aggregation model" ;)
>
>There are some other forms of the same thing (ballistic aggregation,
>freeform clumping, etc) which I think I'll work on next. I'm focusing
>on things that you don't find elsewhere. How many fractal generators
>or Games of Life do we really need, anyway?
I noticed that the visual bacis runtime library (VBRUN.DLL or similar)
is needed. I know of many people who do not know how to install any
dll... isn't there a 'package' mode that links the needed non-standard
external functions into the executable? I had the same problems and
people told me my software didn't run at all... it may be just a
'tick' away... (just a suggestion)
Did you see my goodies? They are useless and MS-DOS...
Byez Brize
ciotog
>On Sun, 04 Jun 2000 19:31:12 GMT, cio...@canada.com (ciotog) wrote:
>
>>There have been studies done of athletes who's skills improved as much
>>by doing training in their heads as much as those who actually train
>>(with a control group who did neither, which showed no improvement).
>
><G> I meant to train for other dreams. I never thought to get a
>phantom in real life :) (I also know you didn't mean that, just
>kidding :))
You never thought to go phantom in real life? Maybe you just assumed
it wouldn't work. I think you should try it ;)
>In fact I prefer to observe as much as possible. I never even tried to
>make others 'do' things I wanted them to. I'll explore this in future,
>now that I have more 'lucid spare time' through induction.
I'm the same way. Of course I remember so few dreams that it doesn't
occur to me to take control of the dream. Whenever I have taken
control I usually get rid of the negative parts and do something more
enjoyable, but beyond that I don't consciously control the other
people in the dream.
After having joined this newsgroup and thinking more about dreaming,
I'm remembering many more dreams now. Well, it's only been a few days,
but it's something. I'm too lazy to write them down though.
>I noticed that the visual bacis runtime library (VBRUN.DLL or similar)
>is needed. I know of many people who do not know how to install any
>dll... isn't there a 'package' mode that links the needed non-standard
>external functions into the executable? I had the same problems and
>people told me my software didn't run at all... it may be just a
>'tick' away... (just a suggestion)
That's a good idea... I think it's about time the vb runtime library
came standard with Windows.
>Did you see my goodies? They are useless and MS-DOS...
I looked around a bit, and everything looks great, but didn't see any
programs. I'll do some more digging. You might want to consider
another hosting service that doesn't put ads on, like
http://www.redrival.com or http://www.kinjo.com (I definitely
recommend the former though). The ads really get in the way,
especially since my monitor is only capable of 640x480 (and
occasionally decides that I don't need to see the colour red).
dus
dreams; ie. mirrors before seeing 'The Matrix', phantom before
seeing 'Spawn' & 'T2'.
Yet according to J W Dunne's theory of Time Serialism, first mentioned
in his book "An Experiment with Time", the mere fact that you saw these
films at all mean that your dreams can be contaminated.
Basically Dunne tested and more or less proved that dreams can include
'reverse historical perception' (yup, prophecy - kind of). When you had
these experiences in your dreams it was just your mind 'remembering' seeing
films, just that the memory was of a future event, not a past one.
Before all you scientists slam this message for being unsubstantiated and
'New Age mystical nonsense', I should point out that J W Dunne wrote his
book
in 1927, he was a mathematician (hence his extremely technical explanations
of
Serialism) and he was great friends with the famous chemist J B Priestley.
The theory of future memory is really odd, and I don't understand the really
technical stuff, but if any of you (jungfriend, Janice) have read the book
as I have
please post your views.
If none of you know what the hell I'm talking about, try these sites for an
explanation:
http://texaschapbookpress.com/magellanslog3/dunne.htm
http://www.iglou.com/homepages/emonk/dreams/experiment.htm
dus
PS What happened to Haunter?
"Brize" <br...@biogate.com> wrote in message
news:3937b8ca...@news.infinito.it...
> My gowd I love this NG :)))
>
> I'm reading and reading... and yet I'm just at the beginning :)
>
> In a dream I "liquified" my body to some kind of black sticky fluid
> (like oil) and then 'stuck' to a shadow in a wall. I somehow know I
> have this 'idea' from waking state and it got into this dream,
> somehow, but I can't remember where I have this from... I called it
> 'phantom'... does somebody know where I probably got this from?
>
Brize
>Basically Dunne tested and more or less proved that dreams can include
>'reverse historical perception' (yup, prophecy - kind of). When you had
>these experiences in your dreams it was just your mind 'remembering' seeing
>films, just that the memory was of a future event, not a past one.
If there would be a scientific explanation of how "information"
regresses into the past, I think there would already be superfast
computers, capable of calculating the results before the formula is
even inserted.
There is a very basic principle to information (through negentropy,
entropy, and finally to energy) that negates all possibilities that
things like that may ever happen.
Sorry, I respect your point, but... I don't believe it. It sounds like
"Martian Timeslip" (Philip K. Dick) to me.
Byez Brize
bri...@infinito.it
www.geocities.com/geobrize/dis
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it,
doesn't go away (VALIS, Philip Kindred Dick)
remove .isadream to reply
Frank van Schie
dus wrote:
>
> Before all you scientists slam this message for being unsubstantiated and
> 'New Age mystical nonsense',
That it is unsubstantiated is a fact, true or not.
> I should point out that J W Dunne wrote his
> book
> in 1927,
Yup, definitely OLD Age mystical nonsense.
;-)
> he was a mathematician (hence his extremely technical explanations
> of
> Serialism) and he was great friends with the famous chemist J B Priestley.
Not the infamous chemist Timothy Leary? :-)
> The theory of future memory is really odd, and I don't understand the really
> technical stuff, but if any of you (jungfriend, Janice) have read the book
> as I have
> please post your views.
All jest aside...
Memory itself is based on the brain receiving input, processing it,
tossing it into some vault to sort out later, then storing the important
bits. So a memory of the future is impossible.
What would, at least IMVHO, be more likely is that several of the 6
billion people on the planet might have/dream of the same concepts,
resulting in the common situations which you described at the beginning
of your post. But that's just lil' disillusioned (yet gullible) me.
> dus
en...? :-)
--
Frank
Brize
>In a dream most of the walls are sticky when you move into one.
>I think all walls represent some energy-block to prevent the
>normal dreamer from being abducted into "strange" dreams...
How can you say this? And what "strange" dreams?
I once dreamed to be a baby, and to be heroin dependent. There were 7
vietnamese childs of the house of "pain" (???), and I felt trapped in
this room. Suddenly I heared a noise, a spaceship. I transmogrified
into a reptile and a wall breached and fell down. I saw a futuristic
city outside full of neon lights. The spaceship picked me up and we
fled... the commander said "1x" in german (!) and the ship moved
slowly. Then he said "10x" and we moved faster. At some point he said
"1000x" and we left earth. Then he went on and on. At some point he
said "1000000x" and we were out of the galaxy. He then said something
more but I couldn't conceive it somehow, and there was a bang. We were
'outside' the universe and saw it: it was 'electric' blue and red,
like a huge snarl, pulsating. Nice dream :)
Well, there was a wall and a "strange" dream behind it. You are right
(again) but... how can you say that? Did you have similar experiences?
I'm very interested in "exploring mirrors", "opening doors" and
"breaching walls". This is all much more interesting than flying
around <boredoom>
Byez Brize
ICQ# 29726965
Brize
>"All buildings in your dream are yours, and they are the
>only source from which you can build up a dream"
This is very interesting... in fact if there were no walls (limits)
there would be no objects and even no space... like a black OBE,
without anything abound, in *The void*, there would be no content. So
the _limits_ caused by objects (walls, or better surfaces) are the
only 'content' of dream-perceptions... dream-perceptions are *void*
but contain these limits we perceive like surfaces. This is very
filosophic, also may be applied to society...
(just to note, but many know this: there is not only the
dream-perception, there is more to a dream than the visual and
auditory stimuli)
* Does someone want to argue with me about that, please?
Ciao, Brize
---- * ----
Chat: ICQ 29726965
Mail: bri...@infinito.it.nospam
Pics: utenti.tripod.it/belbrize
Site: www.geocities.com/geobrize
Remove ".nospam" when replying by email.
---- * ----
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it,
doesn't go away (VALIS, Philip Kindred Dick)
*** Visit my recommended personal LD sites ***
www.geocities.com/geobrize/mela
www.geocities.com/geobrize/dis
Huria
> I once dreamed to be a baby, and to be heroin dependent. There were 7
> vietnamese childs of the house of "pain" (???), and I felt trapped in
> this room. Suddenly I heared a noise, a spaceship. I transmogrified
> into a reptile and a wall breached and fell down. I saw a futuristic
> city outside full of neon lights. The spaceship picked me up and we
> fled... the commander said "1x" in german (!) and the ship moved
> slowly. Then he said "10x" and we moved faster. At some point he said
> "1000x" and we left earth. Then he went on and on. At some point he
> said "1000000x" and we were out of the galaxy. He then said something
> more but I couldn't conceive it somehow, and there was a bang. We were
> 'outside' the universe and saw it: it was 'electric' blue and red,
> like a huge snarl, pulsating. Nice dream :)
>
> Well, there was a wall and a "strange" dream behind it. You are right
> (again) but... how can you say that? Did you have similar experiences?
>
> I'm very interested in "exploring mirrors", "opening doors" and
> "breaching walls". This is all much more interesting than flying
> around <boredoom>
>
>
>
>
> Byez Brize
>
> ICQ# 29726965
> bri...@infinito.it
> www.geocities.com/geobrize/dis
>
> Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it,
> doesn't go away (VALIS, Philip Kindred Dick)
>
> remove .isadream to reply
Huria
pass through walls and would find myself in a completely different location
than before (what would trigger me to go through would be to escape from
people who might be chasing me or trying to hinder my lucid experience, if i
didn't get away then often the lucid experience would end and i would wake
up).
also, sometimes i'm in a building and get lucid, i try to go out a window
and am still in the building. i try going through again and again, but just
come to another room, even 'though it looks like i'm about to go outside.
this is very frustrating!
Gander <pio...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote in message
news:8hl63v$2ee$1...@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at...
> In article <393c3df8...@news.infinito.it>,
> bri...@infinito.it.isadream (Brize) writes:
> > On 5 Jun 2000 22:11:10 GMT, pio...@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote:
> >
> >>In a dream most of the walls are sticky when you move into one.
> >>I think all walls represent some energy-block to prevent the
> >>normal dreamer from being abducted into "strange" dreams...
> >
> > How can you say this? And what "strange" dreams?
>
> I once did an experiment:
>
> When I fly upwards I always come to somthing similar to a room.
> This room does always have a window to the right and a door
> to the left. So I tried to fly out of this window.
>
> In the dream behind the window I repeated the experiment again.
> I think it was three times I crossed this window until I realized
> that the dream got somewhat strange.
>
> Afterwards I tried the same experiment without flying upwards.
> This is doable, because everytime I fly in only one direction,
> I will always come to a wall. This dream was already strange,
> but after flying through the wall I came into some small hole
> with many corridors, some of them too small for me. There the
> Walls where unpassable, so I had to retreat to the previous dream...
> >
> > I once dreamed to be a baby, and to be heroin dependent. There were 7
> > vietnamese childs of the house of "pain" (???), and I felt trapped in
> > this room. Suddenly I heared a noise, a spaceship. I transmogrified
> > into a reptile and a wall breached and fell down. I saw a futuristic
> > city outside full of neon lights. The spaceship picked me up and we
> > fled... the commander said "1x" in german (!) and the ship moved
> > slowly. Then he said "10x" and we moved faster. At some point he said
> > "1000x" and we left earth. Then he went on and on. At some point he
> > said "1000000x" and we were out of the galaxy. He then said something
> > more but I couldn't conceive it somehow, and there was a bang. We were
> > 'outside' the universe and saw it: it was 'electric' blue and red,
> > like a huge snarl, pulsating. Nice dream :)
>
> I am often using walls to make a dream more interesting.
> when it gets boring I cross some wall or window...
> >
> > Well, there was a wall and a "strange" dream behind it. You are right
> > (again) but... how can you say that? Did you have similar experiences?
>
> I had several dreams in which I learned that from this
> mysterious voice. The most important sentence was:
> "All buildings in your dream are yours, and they are the
> only source from which you can build up a dream"
>
> Since then I assumed that all buildings are Real, while everything
> else is created through my imagination. So when I enter such a building,
> then I come into a new "world" with new "buildings".
> Therefore and because of Castaneda I rationalized that walls must be some
> sort of transport-unit to other, more strange "worlds".
> >
> > I'm very interested in "exploring mirrors", "opening doors" and
> > "breaching walls". This is all much more interesting than flying
> > around <boredoom>
>
> Castaneda warned not to overdo this...
>
> When you enter new "worlds" then your dream will soon be
> overpopulated by these "walls". Your dream will depend less
> on your Imagination than on these walls. at least that is my theory.
>
> P
BlueboyX
>regresses into the past, I think there would already be superfast
>computers, capable of calculating the results before the formula is
>even inserted.
Check out this article in the Sunday Times. Scientists recently found a way to
accelerate photons faster than the accepted speed of light. In fact, I have
heard of two groups of researchers claiming this, but I only have this link.
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/06/04/stifgnusa01007.html
>There is a very basic principle to information (through negentropy,
>entropy, and finally to energy) that negates all possibilities that
>things like that may ever happen.
Dont be so sure. I kind of agree with you, but dont be over-confident. Todays
stupid musings can become proven tomorrow.
BlueboyX
>dreams; ie. mirrors before seeing 'The Matrix', phantom before
>seeing 'Spawn' & 'T2'.
>Yet according to J W Dunne's theory of Time Serialism, first mentioned
>in his book "An Experiment with Time", the mere fact that you saw these
>films at all mean that your dreams can be contaminated.
>'reverse historical perception' (yup, prophecy - kind of). When you had
>these experiences in your dreams it was just your mind 'remembering' seeing
>films, just that the memory was of a future event, not a past one.
>
>book
>in 1927, he was a mathematician (hence his extremely technical explanations
>of
>Serialism) and he was great friends with the famous chemist J B Priestley.
Remember that humans mostly have the same DNA and all that; we can all be very
different people and still have many similarities. What I am trying to say is
that if you think of something now, it is likely that someone has thought of it
in the past or future. In this somewhat contorted logic, it would seem likely
that stuff in old dreams would eventually make it's way into a movie since it
is still a person who writes the movie and makes the effects.
Frank van Schie
BlueboyX wrote:
>
> Remember that humans mostly have the same DNA and all that;
Even chimpansees rank at about 96% of our DNA structure, IIRC. :-)
> we can all be very
> different people and still have many similarities. What I am trying to say is
> that if you think of something now, it is likely that someone has thought of it
> in the past or future.
If not only because of our similarities, then surely because of the
similarities of the perceptions of the world we all inhabit (though some
people appear to see things completely weirdly :).
> In this somewhat contorted logic, it would seem likely
> that stuff in old dreams would eventually make it's way into a movie since it
> is still a person who writes the movie and makes the effects.
Person? Nay, a god! Well, depends on the movie I guess :-)
Still, the brain is by definition a chaotic entity, and especially as
far as creativity is concerned. Hence a chapter in one of the books I
own, "Why all artists are a little nuts" :-)
--
Frank
Brize
wrote:
>> I once dreamed to be a baby, and to be heroin dependent. There were 7
>> vietnamese childs of the house of "pain" (???), (snip)
>wow! that is a very interesting dream you had there brize!
The really nice thing is that this dream revealed a lot of my
character to me... this is just the end but I wrote 10 pages and more,
because it lasted very long (over an hour, I think, but it was not
lucid at all... I think at the end I was prelucid and 'saved' the
memories into the waking life...)
I 'decoded' until now 3 of the 7 childs, and all 3 showed me
interesting things about myself...
When I feel ready (in some months or so) I'll try to access this dream
again...
How? I'll try to use what I call a 'connection dream', something like
a 'corridor' from which I may reach the 'chambers' of the dreams...
does someone know what I talk about?
My connection dreams are:
a path on a hill that spreads into different areas of a landscape
(each one is a dream)
a store like blockbuster where I can see the "records" of my dreams
(like the VHS-movie-tapes)
an underground train with a control panel to choose the destination
station (works like an elevator, but is actually a subway)
What other connection dreams do you (anybody not just Huria) have?
Does someone know how to activate the dreams? Because I was on this
landscape and I visited 2 dreams but both were 'deactivated'. There
was everything apart the living creatures. It seemed like an abandoned
set where the pictures were taken but the things were left behind,
nobody caring anymore about them... I question how to "activate" it,
because seeing the scene without action was useless and I was
disappointed... any hints?
Ciao, Brize
---- * ----
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Pics: utenti.tripod.it/belbrize
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Remove ".nospam" when replying by email.
---- * ----
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it,
doesn't go away (VALIS, Philip Kindred Dick)
*** Visit my recommended personal LD sites ***
www.geocities.com/geobrize/mela
www.geocities.com/geobrize/dis
ciotog
>Actually my imagination is able to create some "space" there,
>but I have still the feeling of being inside of some building.
>That is also the world in which there are some inpassable walls.
>Often there is also some way to enter some kind of "void" there.
It just occured to me that I'm never really in an open space in a
dream - even when I seem to be outside, it's as if there's a huge dome
over the entire scene. I haven't really been aware of it before, but
now that I think about it, it seems true.
Maybe I'm just altering my perception.
--
Chris Craig - Ciotóg
http://www.ciotog.net
Janice
>
> BlueboyX wrote:
> >
> > Remember that humans mostly have the same DNA and all that;
>
> Even chimpansees rank at about 96% of our DNA structure, IIRC. :-)
>
More like 99%.
Janice
>
> regarding walls, i had a "series" of lucid dreams for a while where i would
> pass through walls and would find myself in a completely different location
> than before (what would trigger me to go through would be to escape from
> people who might be chasing me or trying to hinder my lucid experience, if i
> didn't get away then often the lucid experience would end and i would wake
> up).
Jay from the group here used to use going through walls and ceilings in
lucid dreams as a teleportation device.
> also, sometimes i'm in a building and get lucid, i try to go out a window
> and am still in the building. i try going through again and again, but just
> come to another room, even 'though it looks like i'm about to go outside.
> this is very frustrating!
Loops like that are not uncommon. You have to focus your attention more
on getting outside than on the loop, else you'll just perpetuate the
loop.
ciotog
>In article <3943c482...@news.netcom.ca>,
> cio...@canada.com (ciotog) writes:
>> I don't really buy that, but there's a lot of things discussed here
>> that I don't agree with (like the idea that everyone experiences glass
>> in a dream the same way). I'd say about half of my dreams take place
>
>Are you able to look through a window, see what is outside,
>without being able to enter that landscape?
>When you open the window, is it still the same image?
I haven't had much experience dealing with glass in my dreams, but
I'll keep an eye out for it. I only doubt it because most of the other
things that people say are not possible while dreaming (like being
able to read) I've done.
I have noticed that I've never experienced drowning in a dream,
however... I've been in water, and am always glad to find that I can
breathe normally.
>> outside (inside a "dome"), and the other half in rooms or buildings
>> that have no relation to my bedroom. Usually they're just big enough
>
>It is true, that the dream has got no relation to your bedroom,
>but when you leave the ground (i.e. while flying) and you try
>to feel all impassable obstacles without touching them, does their
>relative position *not* remind you of your bed-room?
Not really, no. I flew in a dream once where I had the impression I
was in a grocery store I worked at in high school. I don't know why it
felt like the store, nothing about it was familiar... But at any rate,
many of my dreams seem to take place in familiar surroundings, but not
necessarily my bedroom.
>> to contain all the action. I wonder if my dreams are scripted out
>> beforehand in order to make sure they don't go outside the boundary :)
>
>I rather imagine it to be like a Holo-Suite from Star Trek.
>You can walk and walk, but the computer keeps
>moving you towards the center.
I think it's more like a modern computer game with a clipping plane.
With the Star Trek holo-suite, there's an impression that the
landscape continues forever, whereas with a clipping plane it's often
quite apparent that nothing exists beyond (until you move closer, or
in dream, think about it).
Either way, I'm sure the dream-reality is limited by the capacity of
the dreamer.
>> Maybe I'm just not imaginative enough to go beyond.
>>
>
>Did you try to differenciate between walking and
>moving without touching the ground?
>
>I think if you let the dream handle it, you should be able to
>go as far as you like. If not, then it's the fault of your expectations.
I usually let the dream handle things, and you're right, I tend to
cover a lot more ground when I do. When I'm in control I'm usually
exploring the sensation of flying, and not paying so much attention to
the surroundings.
Huria
i don't have this "loop" happening much in my experiences lately. i know
what i need to do it if it happens again, i have to discipline myself to
memorize a way to overcome situation so i remember to do something different
than just keep going through the windows when lucid.
i find in lucid experiences that sometimes my thinking abilities are
better, so that no memorizing in waking life of what i'll do when lucid is
necessary...i'll be able to think rationally while lucid and work it out
there and then. unfortunately i don't think those times happen as frequently
as the "poor thinking abilitiy" lucids. so i'll just have to discipline
myself to be disciplined!
Janice <not...@not-here.net> wrote in message
news:3944F6...@not-here.net...
Janice
>
> thanks for the input janice:)
> i don't have this "loop" happening much in my experiences lately. i know
> what i need to do it if it happens again, i have to discipline myself to
> memorize a way to overcome situation so i remember to do something different
> than just keep going through the windows when lucid.
Yep. Have as big a repertoire of tricks as you can remember.
> i find in lucid experiences that sometimes my thinking abilities are
> better, so that no memorizing in waking life of what i'll do when lucid is
> necessary...i'll be able to think rationally while lucid and work it out
> there and then. unfortunately i don't think those times happen as frequently
> as the "poor thinking abilitiy" lucids. so i'll just have to discipline
> myself to be disciplined!
Easier said than done! Unfortunately, semilucidity seems to be more
common than full lucidity. But the more you practice, the better you
should get ...
ciotog
>In a dream I can read one letter, I can read read multiple letters and
>assemble them to words. But with a large text I will risk to be
>sucked into the text. When I read some large text, then my imagination
>tries to translate the contents into a vision of the events happening
>in that text. in a dream these visions will transform into a new dream
>and therefore my lucidity is endangerd...
My experience has usually been that I knew already what the message
was trying to say, so the words were just what they needed to be to
fit the context. I don't recall ever having text change from one look
to another, but I just never really looked twice anyway...
>However, Water does have special propieties in a dream.
>You can walk on water. When you dive into water you will
>notice that it isn't wet, and that it is just as dense as
>the rest of the dream. You can walk on the ground just as
>you can walk outside of the water. There is no friction
>slowing down your movements, except when you try to run.
>But even without water it is impossible to run faster than
>that, because the movement of your feet will lift your body,
>so that your feet won't touch the ground anymore. That is just
>like under water, where it is impossible to run for the same reason.
Well, I still don't believe there are restrictions to what you can do
in any of these situations. It may be highly unlikely that someone
could run while underwater in a dream, but I wouldn't say impossible.
I think it's similar to the way some people say that it's impossible
to imagine four spacial dimensions. I'm sure most people can't, but I
wouldn't say that no-one can. I wish I had more to back up these
speculations :)
I'm also very sceptical about dream analysis. If I dream about riding
a horse, I don't see why it should mean the same thing as if Phey from
Singapore dreams about riding a horse. If there's anything I do
believe though it's message dreams, but they're usually so obvious
that I don't understand why they're seen as something special.
>Also I think that when you have two container of the same size,
>one with some fluid, then you will be able to get any amount
>of that fluid by pouring it into the other container.
Or else nothing comes out of the first container, or maybe only a few
drops :)
>I didn't say the dream takes place at some familiar surrounding,
>I said that (when you disregard size) there are some similarities
>to one particular place. Maybe it isn't always the Bedroom, but
>everytime when the shape of my bedroom could be used to build the
>landscape with houses in the place of my furniture, then the arrangement
>of the furniture in my bedroom is used to place these buildings.
I frequently change my bedroom around, and have moved so often that I
doubt my mind really takes this into consideration. I'm sure my dreams
usually take place in familiar settings because they're, well,
familiar. Some of my best dreams have been (or at least seemed)
unrelated to any place I've seen, though.
>It seems like the imagination doesn't want to invent new coordinates,
>so it will use something it could easily reproduce. But my question is
>if the perception of OBE is used for this or just memories.
>I discoverd, that in every dream I am OOB and dreaming at the same time.
>It is like having two eyes: one watching and the other creating the dream.
I'm entirely sceptical about "true" OBEs. I mean, if anyone is
actually able to separate their mind from their body, certainly I
should be able to do it! :)
So having said that, I'd say you're taking things from your memories
to create the OBE.
>I don't know how the inventors of the Holo-Suite in Star-Trek imagined
>the reaction on "going too far",
I think it depends on how well it fits into the plot of the episode :)
Some of the earlier ones had it restricted to the actual size of the
room, but they changed that for later episodes.
>but turning you around also seems to be
>a valid solution. I too experienced that when you move closer, then
>the picture will loose its third dimension. However in my dreams there
>is always enough space for one rem-phase. Sometimes (for example when
>I dream of skiing or car-driving) I don't move at all, while the landscape
>does change.
I don't think I've ever experienced being still while the landscape
moves around me... But I can't really say that I ever paid much
attention to the horizon, and what it was like. I've had several
dreams where I felt for certain that I was in an enclosed area (like a
domed space station), and otherwise there would be the usual horizon
blocking features (buildings, trees etc.)
Wouldn't you know I've had two dreams in the past week where I
could've explored this idea more, but it never occured to me at the
time. I need more control!
>In some rare situations I must go through a tunnel to get from
>one landscape to the other. This is often a good point to get Lucid,
>since there is always this strange sensation, that by entering the
>tunnel you leave one world (sometimes I can see this two-dimensional
>wall) and without crossing it, you will come out into another even
>more strange world.
I really need to get more dreaming experience before I can comment on
this... Not to mention dream control.
>I think flying is boring without a context. Therefore I prefere
>being half-lucid, because then I can apply my flying-arts to
>some adventures. It is fun being chased, finding new places
>to hide, solving riddles or just saving the world.
>Non-lucid dreams are much more fun, when you know that you are dreaming...
Ah, so you're taking "lucid" to mean "in control". I take it to mean
"aware". Anyway, I'd also rather just let the dream happen without my
control. That's prolly why I rarely take control.
ciotog
>Then you never actually read a text. You are right that every action
>or object from real life can be represented in a dream. However,
>when you try to verify that these actions are exactly the same
>experience as they are in real life, then you will notice such
>discrepances. Reading in a dream is difficult, because we have
>the impression that reading is some kind of communication, like
>whaching a film or hearing a story. So not reading itself is impossible,
>but some sensations are differing from real life.
There were definitely letters, they were arranged in words, the words
were in the form of sentences. I certainly read them. Not necessarily
every word, but I don't read every word of a every script I see, and I
could probably still tell you the basics of what information they're
trying to convey. This is similar to what I experience in my dreams -
it's like reading something you're already familiar with.
>No, Running faster than at a certain speed is impossible in any dream!
I don't know how you can say that without being familiar with every
dream that was ever dreamt!
>That's because the movment of your feet will prevent you from touching
>the ground. However, when you ignore the sensation of the ground
>under your feet, then it could be possible to move fast, unless
>there is some non-squeezable person near you. Then you won't be
>able to run away that fast without some kind of flying.
>
>Anything is possible in what you call a normal dream. However,
>when you gain control then it is not possible to fool you, and
>you will notice that some things are not possible
I would've thought the opposite - when you can't be fooled, that's
when you can break free from your limitations.
>Symbols in a dream are individual, however our language is not.
>If some symbol is related to some word in our language, some
>movement in the language of our body or some association connected
>to that symbol which is propagated through media, then you can assume
>that these symbols are not unique...
I've found that the majority of people aren't able to appreciate
symbolism in many ways (for example in movies, books, etc), so I have
a hard time believing that their minds are able to come up with the
type of deep symbolism that is often stated in dream analysis. Do you
think that people are able to achieve their potential in dreams when
they don't show that potential while awake?
>I think there is a misunderstanding.
>For example: Often my dreams take place in a certain street
>frequented by me in real life. I noticed that in these dreams there is
>always one building smaller than the rest. That's always the second
>building from the "starting point". when I fly on this building then
>there is always some smaller "building" on the roof. The two buildings
>next to this could be interpreted as the two cupboards next to a
>smaller one just like in my bedroom. Other locations tend to have a similar
>shape. The individual surface of the buildings does change, even the
>shape of the buildings are never the same, however the size and relative
>order is always the same when I fly around.
Could it be that you're experiencing what you expect? I can't remember
what it's called... You think it's going to happen this way, so it
does.
I've certainly never experienced this. All the dreams I can think of
have taken place in different locations that bear no similarity to one
another. A hedge maze, where the hedges were all the same height, in a
pool (the deep end, actually - this was pretty cool, since everything
in the pool acted like it was weightless, except me), in a tv studio,
etc. I don't think I misunderstand you, I just don't think this is
something that what you're noticing is happening to everyone without
their awareness.
>In my understanding OBE is just sleep-paralysis with visual perception
>and where you are certainly not in the same position as your sleeping body.
Where your "consciousness" has left your body? I don't think so...
>That doesn't only apply to OBE, but also to perception while awaken.
>I've heard that it would need some seconds until the visual image
>could be transmitted from the eye to our conciousness. To increase this
>reaction we tell our eyes what we expect to happen, and they will
>tell us directly when it happens. So the pictures used to describe
>some event are taken from memory (which in turn gets feedback from the
>eyes).
Some seconds - I don't think so. Professional athletes would also have
a very strong case to disagree with this.
Certainly our brains will use memories and other things to try and
interpret things that you haven't experienced before, but I don't
think we're doing it ahead of time. We do something like this when
we're walking through our house in the darkness, but there's too many
stimuli to expect this to happen in regular activities.
>> Wouldn't you know I've had two dreams in the past week where I
>> could've explored this idea more, but it never occured to me at the
>> time. I need more control!
>
>If you really want, you will get Control...
I'm sure it will happen, I'm not worried about that at all.
>> I really need to get more dreaming experience before I can comment on
>> this... Not to mention dream control.
>
>I think that's why this newsgroup has such a low traffic:
>Everybody needs to test something before replying...
I think it has low traffic because most of these ideas have been
explored before, and I would imagine it gets tiring to say the same
thing over and over...
>>>Non-lucid dreams are much more fun, when you know that you are dreaming...
>>
>> Ah, so you're taking "lucid" to mean "in control". I take it to mean
>> "aware". Anyway, I'd also rather just let the dream happen without my
>> control. That's prolly why I rarely take control.
>
>No.
What does "non-lucid dreams are much more fun, when you know that you
are dreaming" mean then? If you're non-lucid, then you don't know
you're dreaming.
>If I would understand lucid as aware, then all the dreams I can remember
>would be lucid. If you asked me in the dream if I am dreaming, then
>I would say yes. If the situation needs special abilities that are only
>possible in a dream, then I would use them. So I would say that I have
>a lucid dream each day. Such a distinction is useless for me.
Yes, but in order for everyone to have a meaningful discussion about
such things it's really necessary to keep the same definitions. We
could have different definitions if we were all aware of each others
distinctions, but that's not possible.
>Sometimes I have half-lucid dreams, where I am controlling where the
>story should go next. I am inventing new locations or forcing the
>consistency of some objects. These dreams are fun, because I control
>one part of the dream, while the rest is unknown for me.
So you _are_ taking lucid to mean "in control" then.
>Even though in the normal dream I know that I am dreaming, there is
>no possibility for me to be certain, that there is no timespan
>in which I think to be not dreaming. In a half-lucid dream I also don't
>have that certainity. only in a lucid dream I can be certain of my lucidity,
>because I give up the conrol over the dream and simply step out of it.
>When I am not part of the dream, only then I can try to remember the
>things I wanted to do. Inside of the dream it would be impossible to
>concentrate on both "stories".
I think that's my problem, I'm concentrating too much on the actual
dream itself and "forget" that I want to grab control of it and try
some things.
>So a lucid dream is only when I step out of a dream. I only do that
>when I get bored of a dream or when I remember some really important
>things to do while dreaming. This isn't that often, rather only
>once a month. But this still isn't a guarantee, that I will remember
>Everything I intended to do in a dream.
Sometimes in dreams it feels like I'm just an observer, and these are
usually the most interesting dreams I have. I can't think of any that
were boring enough for me to want to end them and take control. The
few times I have is because I was getting frustrated with something,
like trying to fly.