real pissin' contest Carlitos Crow ordered up
Jeremy Donovan
>Hi Jeremy! Me? Serious? <chuckling> No, that's one thing I'm really not.
Maybe you're not intelligent enough to be. Or perhaps you just
don't have enough integrity. Well, whatever, good luck with that.
IMO it takes the ability to be serious to have a genuine sense
of humor. From what I can see, neither Crow nor Unc has much of
one, even though each fancies himself the most "unserious"
creature living. :-)
>> You already did give it up.
>
>It does seem a bit silly to argue this, doesn't it?
Yes, it is silly. Because you already gave it up.
>> You're trapped by a bunch of nonsense, among other things.
>
>Nah...
Yeah...
>> But it doesn't matter...
>
>Not really, no. Isn't it nice to share such agreements here?
We think it doesn't matter for different reasons, so it isn't
really an agreement.
>> Almost every good thing in life is more valuable than "freedom".
>
>Yet nothing may be enjoyed without it.
Wrong again. I am living proof that almost everything good
can be enjoyed without it.
>> physical and emotional health, integrity, wisdom,
>> friendship, creativity, children, genuine contribution to life, etc.
>
>I have all those things! Wow! And still I shall insist I am free as
>well!
But you're not. Your illusion of "freedom" would be the
easiest thing in the world to shatter. My life includes
all the things I listed in abundance, yet I am not free, nor
do I have any need to be. :-) Moreover, I would still have
each and every one of the things above, were I incarcerated
in a prison today.
>> You name it... Almost no one has much real freedom, anyway.
>
>Well you're takin' the liberty of sayin' such silly stuff here, isn't
>that freedom, Jeremy?
No, it isn't. "Freedom" is nonsense, and your assertion that you
are free is "silly stuff".
>> Fortunately, no one really needs it.
>
>Well, I sure do! Couldn't live without it, myself.
Sure you could. In fact, you're living without it right now.
(all the TB's are too)
You're chained in so many ways, and one major way
is in your obsessive adherence to all this "warrior" nonsense.
What an incredibly limited view...
>> (hey, you think you're the only one who can play extremist whacko?? :-) )
>
>I'm not playin' any whacko extremist... This is who I am, just the way I
>am here.
Well hey, at least this is one forum you won't get thrown out of
for being the pig-headed, pointless, argumentative, obsessed
"perfect warrior" that you are. So enjoy presenting your
"wonderful" image to everyone. Have loads of fun with it.
I know how much fun it is. Did it for years. LOL.
>> I do it all the time.
>
>It doesn't seem thataway to me. None here.
Perhaps you aren't bright enough to notice when it happens.
>> Your insistence on continuing to approach
>> everything here in terms of "being a warrior" pretty much guarantees
>> that I will not be able to develop much genuine respect for you,
>
>That's okay. I mean, sure, it would be nice to have your respect. But
>I don't need it, really, do I? No.
Right. You got something right. Good.
>> nor have a sincere desire to converse with you at any length.
>
>Well, I'm a bit sorry to hear this, but okay. I'll not pester you for a
>conversation then.
You just did. And I'm obliging you, even though I didn't want to
have to waste the time. It's necessary this once, just to make
things plain.
>> just letting you know, so you
>> don't wonder why I won't respond to your baiting provocations
>> and attempts to derail the expression of significant issues.
>
>Huh? Significant issues? Here? At ADC? <chuckling> No, that's
>silly! A bit funny though. Thanks for the li'l chuckle, there, Jer.
No problem. There's nothing serious here at all. Of course not.
Five inner-circle women may have killed themselves over this shit,
just for starters -- but significance, seriousness, these are
dirty "unenlightened" words in your life. Go back to sleep.
>> Let's just leave it on that friendly note, Crow.
>
>Well sure, you've abandoned the idea of bein' friendly here, seems to me.
No, I sincerely tried to leave it that way in the end.
You ignored my attempt. If you'd been at all restrained
in your reply, I'd have left you alone, and would've kept
a respectful distance, too.
After all, it's not like you're the only person on the
planet obsessed with a dysfunctional, limiting belief system
based on lies, now is it? Of course not.
I can live and let live, as long as people leave me alone.
I can choose what NOT to have around my life, too. And that
very much includes "warriors".
>> That effusively affectionate mood of yours was really great.
>
>That's true, it is a great mood. It's a *warriors' mood*, that might be why.
No, that wouldn't be it, because you were simply being friendly
and open and appreciative, and those are the *furthest* things
from a "warrior's mood". A "warrior's mood" is what got you
thrown off mailing lists, and stuff like that.
>> My wish for you is that you spend as much time as possible there.
>
>I do.
Good. I do too.
>> That's as good as it's gonna get between you and me.
>
>What a peculiar thing to say. Kinda sad, in a way...
Maybe, but it was the truth.
>> Have a good life,
>
>I do, and I'm here to share a bit of it with those free enough to
>appreciate that.
Whatever.
>I'm sorry you aren't. Go figure.
Don't be sorry. After all, I'm not sorry that you're obsessed
with a delusional, limiting philosophy of life based on lies.
Why not? Because I did my best to show you what it's really about,
and I offered you a choice, and you still chose that nonsense.
So why should I be sorry any more? And why should you be sorry
that I have absolutely no need or use for some stupid extremist
view of "freedom"?
OTOH, I guess it is a little sad. After all, without the moronic
lies and limiting framework of Carlos Castaneda's "warrior" crap
polluting every moment of our relationship, we might have liked
one another. But that's the reality of it, so let's not waste
our time any more. Okay?
I've wished you good fortune, and now I'd like it if we can just
leave one another alone. We have irreconciliable differences.
-Jeremy
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Carlitos Crow
>
> Carlitos Crow <mo...@home.com> wrote:
A pissin' contest, eh! <chuckling> That's pretty silly, Jeremy!
But hey, you know me; I like silly stuff! Especially the seriously
silly stuff, I guess.
...But me? Serious? <chuckling> No, that's one thing I'm really not.
>
> Maybe you're not intelligent enough to be.
It's possible. I really cannot tell nor say just how intelligent I am.
You might be able to, but who'd accept you as an authority on either
intelligence or Crow?
> Or perhaps you just
> don't have enough integrity.
You are makin' it sound as if 'seriousness' were such a desireable
trait; *special* even.
Well, whatever, good luck with that.
And luck... What has luck got to do with seriousness, if anything?
> IMO it takes the ability to be serious to have a genuine sense
> of humor.
Perhaps it does. I may possess the ability to be serious without bein'
compelled in any way to be serious, how's that?
From what I can see, neither Crow nor Unc has much of
> one, even though each fancies himself the most "unserious"
> creature living. :-)
Oh I don't know... That's reachin' just a bit, Jeremy.
>
> >> You already did give it up.
> >
> >It does seem a bit silly to argue this, doesn't it?
>
> Yes, it is silly. Because you already gave it up.
Okay, just for fun, I'll agree, okay? I gave up my freedom, and look
where it's gotten me! Into a 'pissin' contest' with you! Oh boy, hope
it was worth it, but then, heck, next post I can give up hope as well,
huh! <chuckling sadly> I'll hold my hopes ever so high for now though...
>
> >> You're trapped by a bunch of nonsense, among other things.
Well, gee. Bein' slightly challenged... Can you help me? Or are you
goin' to just laugh maliciously and ... well, gee. You'd not lash out
at me or seek to publicly humiliate me would you? Nah... You're really
a nice guy, right? Or is that a bit of the nonsense which has me
trapped here? So darn hard to tell sense from sensibility around
here... I mean, if I go by what you tell me, I guess I have to conclude
that I'm in a really bad way... I thought I was doin' pretty good,
but...
> >
> >Nah...
>
> Yeah...
>
> >> But it doesn't matter...
> >
> >Not really, no. Isn't it nice to share such agreements here?
>
> We think it doesn't matter for different reasons, so it isn't
> really an agreement.
Oh. Well you said it doesn't matter, and I was agreeing with you, but I
s'pose I might have first asked you why you feel it doesn't matter, and
then, havin' known a bit better why it doesn't, well, I could (well, it
would really have to be 'we could') agree more *properly*. It's silly
to argue about stuff that doesn't matter, but if it might prove somehow
instructive, Jeremy, well, I'd be eager to try to learn here.
But it seems unlikely somehow, that I'll ever really learn anything much
here; I've not ever expected to. If anything, I'll be reminded that it
doesn't matter, which I've already learned, even if it's true that we
*all* have our own reasons for sayin' so when we do.
>
> >> Almost every good thing in life is more valuable than "freedom".
> >
> >Yet nothing may be enjoyed without it.
>
> Wrong again.
I do miss it so... How might I get it back, Jeremy? I guess you're not
one to ask, are you, not feelin' free yourself...
> I am living proof that almost everything good
> can be enjoyed without it.
The thing I noticed when I felt so free, was that even bad things didn't
invade that true peace I'd found, that real joy of being so close to
spirit, so at one with both of those things.
>
> >> physical and emotional health, integrity, wisdom,
> >> friendship, creativity, children, genuine contribution to life, etc.
> >
> >I have all those things! Wow! And still I shall insist I am free as
> >well!
>
> But you're not.
If you say so here it's a done deal, huh? I gave it up; I gave it up to
talk pleasantly with you. I thought I could talk pleasantly with you
while being free, but now I know it bothers you, I left freedom for the
moment to find out what you might be able to tell me about enjoying
ourselves blue here while being serious and constructive... Wow,
wouldn't that beat all!
> Your illusion of "freedom" would be the
> easiest thing in the world to shatter.
Well give it a whirl, give it your best shot! It isn't a 'thing', nor
is it of this world either, except for bein' a somewhat dubious word
causin' us all sorts of trouble here... Kinda makes me feel a bit sad,
too, thinkin' of all the innocent folks who have died for the hope of
'freedom' for all... Led by their noses like a rabbit after the
proverbial carrot for a word which turns out so empty and illusionary...
My life includes
> all the things I listed in abundance, yet I am not free, nor
> do I have any need to be. :-)
Well, you've gotta help ol' Crow here, if you would be so kind. I *do*
need to be; I can scarcely write this silly post without my blessed
freedom. I shall die quite miserably without it. You'd not wish a
miserable death on anyone, would you?
It's funny; I already died, rather painlessly I admit... And was born
again... free. And now it turns out it was all an illusion... And what
a wonderful illusion it was, too, I can tell you that much. I was so
overjoyed to have another chance, I wept and cried, and called aloud,
"Thank you, great spirit, for the freedom you have granted me! Your
wish is my command, I shall never be able to repay the gratitude I feel
for this wonderful freedom to live *well*, to live at all! I was dying,
and I couldn't stand it, and now I am so very alive, and so full to the
brim with love for all things living, all things with spirit!" It is a
wonderful thing, even to recall it now. But I can put it behind me, if
you might offer something I can truly grasp with my challenged
intelligence which might help to make the world a better place. I've
had enough freedom, I guess. Perhaps the time has come to try and learn
to live once again without it, if indeed it can be done.
Moreover, I would still have
> each and every one of the things above, were I incarcerated
> in a prison today.
I could be your cell-mate now, huh! Wouldn't that be fun?
>
> >> You name it... Almost no one has much real freedom, anyway.
> >
> >Well you're takin' the liberty of sayin' such silly stuff here, isn't
> >that freedom, Jeremy?
>
> No, it isn't. "Freedom" is nonsense, and your assertion that you
> are free is "silly stuff".
Well, hopefully even after givin' up hope I'll still get to enjoy a bit
of silly stuff... Or does all that go with freedom?
Gosh, I sure hope not... Seems I sure need hope here at the moment...
Wringin' her right out here, poor dear...
>
> >> Fortunately, no one really needs it.
> >
> >Well, I sure do! Couldn't live without it, myself.
>
> Sure you could. In fact, you're living without it right now.
It's still there... I'm merely abstaining, right? I'm pretty addicted
to it, gotta admit that. Do you mind if I occasionally crow "I'm free!"
just for old times sake? We'd both know it wasn't true, huh! And
perhaps you'd just smile to yourself, and maybe call me a tar-baby...
And of course I'd not mind that, under such circumstances. I didn't
mind it a bit when I was free, but now, well, now maybe things will be
different, and I'll start minding stuff like that.
>
> (all the TB's are too)
Well, I've not been one of those, not according to the definition you
recently posted here. Yet I've been a true believer in the sense that I
believe, and I believe fervently. Is believing a bad thing? I couldn't
live without believing either, I don't believe...
>
> You're chained in so many ways, and one major way
> is in your obsessive adherence to all this "warrior" nonsense.
So I ditched freedom, and suspect my hope is soon to go as well here,
and now I may have to renounce warriorship too? <sigh> A tall order
indeed! If indeed I could get it all right, goodness me, what'll be
left of me, huh!
> What an incredibly limited view...
It's gettin' dimmer now... Or is even that yet another illusion to be
dispensed with?
> >> (hey, you think you're the only one who can play extremist whacko?? :-) )
> >
> >I'm not playin' any whacko extremist... This is who I am, just the way I
> >am here.
>
> Well hey, at least this is one forum you won't get thrown out of
> for being the pig-headed, pointless, argumentative, obsessed
> "perfect warrior" that you are.
No, well... everyone is so friendly here anyhow. Who'd want to throw me
out, unless they themselves enjoyed thinkin' they were all of those
things and it bugged 'em that I was gettin' all the attention that they
were hopin' to get by 'pretending' to be thataway?
> So enjoy presenting your
> "wonderful" image to everyone.
Well, I have enjoyed that to some extent, certainly. I thought enjoyin'
oneself was healthy. And heck, it's only an 'image', right?
> Have loads of fun with it.
> I know how much fun it is. Did it for years. LOL.
But then one day you learned the folly in all that, and I guess you
stopped? So what's fun for you here now, then, Jeremy?
>
> >> I do it all the time.
> >
> >It doesn't seem thataway to me. None here.
>
> Perhaps you aren't bright enough to notice when it happens.
Well, you did say 'all the time', so I thought you might actually be
serious. Nah, I'm not all that bright, just good at reflectin' the
light. Yours, I s'pose, in this case.
>
> >> Your insistence on continuing to approach
> >> everything here in terms of "being a warrior" pretty much guarantees
> >> that I will not be able to develop much genuine respect for you,
> >
> >That's okay. I mean, sure, it would be nice to have your respect. But
> >I don't need it, really, do I? No.
>
> Right. You got something right. Good.
Gettin' to be quite a list of things which one doesn't need but some
folks like myself believe are nice things to have... freedom, hope,
anything which smacks of 'warriorship', respect of others... Are these
the chains which bind me? How could I be so misled?
>
> >> nor have a sincere desire to converse with you at any length.
> >
> >Well, I'm a bit sorry to hear this, but okay. I'll not pester you for a
> >conversation then.
>
> You just did.
Well, I responded to your post. I didn't realize I was bein' a pest.
How is one to know until after the fact, which seems a bit after the fact?
> And I'm obliging you, even though I didn't want to
> have to waste the time.
Is that what this is? A waste of time? It hasn't seemed so to me.
> It's necessary this once, just to make
> things plain.
If only folks could learn so quickly, think of all the time we'd all
save! We'd not need to live at all, would we? And if folks had already
learned before we'd been conceived, it is quite likely we'd not even
ever have been born... My, what an ominous saving of time that would be;
it's practically unthinkable!
>
> >> just letting you know, so you
> >> don't wonder why I won't respond to your baiting provocations
> >> and attempts to derail the expression of significant issues.
> >
> >Huh? Significant issues? Here? At ADC? <chuckling> No, that's
> >silly! A bit funny though. Thanks for the li'l chuckle, there, Jer.
>
> No problem. There's nothing serious here at all. Of course not.
Well, it is *only* life passing. It isn't so very serious as all that,
really, you know.
> Five inner-circle women may have killed themselves over this shit,
I've often wondered why that ng is so empty these days... Perhaps they
simply stopped posting there?
Go on, one li'l joke! Gee whiz. Folks die willingly for what they
believe in often enough. And other folks die without havin' something
or someone to believe in too. And then folks simply die too. Some just
give up; some simply quit. It's okay, no? Life is for the living,
really, isn't it? It isn't for the dying, nor for those without hope,
or without love, or without freedom, yes, even that, however illusionary
it may appear to so many, if one can but apprehend it for oneself.
> just for starters -- but significance, seriousness, these are
> dirty "unenlightened" words in your life. Go back to sleep.
They're just words, Jeremy! And words are not 'enlightened' nor
'unenlightened'! It's *silly* to believe otherwise, no?
>
> >> Let's just leave it on that friendly note, Crow.
> >
> >Well sure, you've abandoned the idea of bein' friendly here, seems to me.
>
> No, I sincerely tried to leave it that way in the end.
Well, this is silly yet again! What 'end' is there in bein' friendly,
Jeremy? It seems wrong to act friendly if you don't truly feel
friendly... Why would you want to mislead someone thataway?
> You ignored my attempt.
Not at all; I'm honouring our budding friendship here as best as I'm
able. It's not so very easy at times, but I'm still hoping it's worth
it. I believe it is too. My crutches, I s'pose, in your eyes, it
seems. Are you really so very disdainful of cripples like me?
> If you'd been at all restrained
> in your reply, I'd have left you alone,
Goodness, I don't mind sharin' this conversation with you or anyone else
who might enjoy it here. I didn't come here to be 'left alone' really.
I enjoy the company I find here, including yours. I'd not come if I
wished to be alone, or left alone.
> and would've kept
> a respectful distance, too.
So in a way, you *do* respect me! <smile>
>
> After all, it's not like you're the only person on the
> planet obsessed with a dysfunctional, limiting belief system
> based on lies, now is it? Of course not.
I'm not obsessed. I like Castaneda's 'milleiu', the whole ball of wax.
It isn't some 'system' which so enthralls me, really, although I have
learned much from a few simple, systematically arranged ideas put into
practise, yes, certainly. And I don't mind givin' credit where it seems
it is due, and so naturally I give credit to Castaneda for some of what
he so cleverly arranged, regardless of the 'sources' of any of these
'ideas' 'principles' and even the stories themselves.
>
> I can live and let live, as long as people leave me alone.
Well gee, I've not been really pickin' on you or anything. We're
talking, exchanging some of our views, or at the very least airing them
anyhow, and that's a good thing to be doing, isn't it? You can keep
posting or leave ADC, you can ignore me or you can call me names or you
can talk decently to me, offer what wisdom you feel might really sink in
here... Don't you desire to do that, if you felt there was some way to
proceed? I come here for friendship, Jeremy, I've always maintained
that intent. True, I've failed miserably in that department with many
others here, yet I have met a number of folks here as well who I can say
I'm on friendly terms with at the very least, and I'm very happy to be
able to say as much and be certain they aren't empty words. And then, I
can still make amends with some of those folks I've evidently offended
in the past; and yeah, it's something to look forward to... And I do.
> I can choose what NOT to have around my life, too. And that
> very much includes "warriors".
Well, we don't have to talk about that if it bugs you so much. So what
sorts of folks do you enjoy as real friends then?
>
> >> That effusively affectionate mood of yours was really great.
> >
> >That's true, it is a great mood. It's a *warriors' mood*, that might be why.
>
> No, that wouldn't be it, because you were simply being friendly
> and open and appreciative, and those are the *furthest* things
> from a "warrior's mood".
Well, the main thing concerning a 'warriors mood' is that this so-called
'warrior' chooses it. It's a willfully made choice, and of course is
liable to be challenged when it doesn't seem to 'fit' either the
prevailling mood overall, or the mood of the folks or person this
so-called 'warrior' is talking with or hangin' out with. It isn't an
easy thing to achieve; one certainly isn't going to manage it
overnight... The other significant thing about this so-called 'warriors
mood' is that it *feels good* and quite often it seems to spread and
uplift others as well. Yes, the opposite is sometimes true as well,
I'll grant you that. When folks are feelin' heavy or perhaps really
'serious' they tend to react in a rather resentful manner towards this
ebullient 'chipper' 'no flies on me' kind of mood.
> A "warrior's mood" is what got you
> thrown off mailing lists, and stuff like that.
Just one, Jeremy. I didn't mind. No biggie. Lots of lists to
subscribe to. I did enjoy Ixtlan, and I know it is due in part to those
who so evidently enjoyed me there. One simply cannot expect to always
please folks, especially if one is so vocal as I can be about the things
one either cares deeply about, or is utterly frustrated by.
>
> >> My wish for you is that you spend as much time as possible there.
> >
> >I do.
>
> Good. I do too.
It's nice to know, Jeremy. <smile>
>
> >> That's as good as it's gonna get between you and me.
> >
> >What a peculiar thing to say. Kinda sad, in a way...
>
> Maybe, but it was the truth.
Maybe, but the truth changes... At least, this sort does. And truth is
often a bit sad, I'm used to that. Friendship without freedom seems to
be the garden variety, doesn't it!
>
> >> Have a good life,
> >
> >I do, and I'm here to share a bit of it with those free enough to
> >appreciate that.
>
> Whatever.
It's much harder to share stuff when one isn't free to share it, doesn't
that seem so obvious? I'm still rahter hoping you're going to help me
to learn a bit about how it might be accomplished.
>
> >I'm sorry you aren't. Go figure.
>
> Don't be sorry.
It would seem I can't help it. Oh, I can say nothing about such
feelings, sure. But I'd still have them; I'd not lie to myself. I only
thought that perhaps sharing them with you might help 'em change for the
best. They're about you, after all.
> After all, I'm not sorry that you're obsessed
Really, I'm not obsessed as you keep insisting I am. Why do you so
insist, instead of accepting the truth in what I am telling you? Have
you any idea?
> with a delusional, limiting philosophy of life based on lies.
The truth must *be* for any lie to cover it. Everyone lives a lie. Not
just me. I can admit it; no skin off my beak. And it is the truth
which really troubles folks, Jeremy, not the lies. I've no delusions
nor doubts about that.
> Why not? Because I did my best to show you what it's really about,
You're sounding just a wee bit like a 'failed don Juan' here, do you
realize that?
> and I offered you a choice,
And now just a wee bit like Castaneda...
> and you still chose that nonsense.
Definitely like Castaneda.
> So why should I be sorry any more?
This wasn't about *you* bein' sorry, Jeremy, but about *me* bein' sorry
that you didn't feel free to enjoy our exchanges here.
> And why should you be sorry
> that I have absolutely no need or use for some stupid extremist
> view of "freedom"?
I wasn't sorry about that. Only that you divorce yourself from a
potentially enjoyable and worthwhile exchange by labeling my view as it
appears to you. It's my view, that's all. And it has served me well
enough, as I've said oh so many times now. And it is changing, and I
welcome change. Whatever it may become it'll still be merely my view,
and I'll likely be just as enthused to share it as ever before. I said
before that I respect your view, although your view of me might need
review at some point, that's all.
>
> OTOH, I guess it is a little sad. After all, without the moronic
> lies and limiting framework of Carlos Castaneda's "warrior" crap
> polluting every moment of our relationship, we might have liked
> one another.
Well, I *do* like you, Jeremy! Always have! There's plenty of things
about you to like, if one likes to like folks as I like to do...
But that's the reality of it, so let's not waste
> our time any more. Okay?
I haven't wasted any time. It's been all very worthwhile for me. Thank
you for your time.
>
> I've wished you good fortune,
Is it my turn to wish then? I wish you could find some real value for
all the time you spend here, how's that?
> and now I'd like it if we can just
> leave one another alone. We have irreconciliable differences.
That may well be. Does it really matter at all? And yet, isn't that
kinda neat in a way? You'd likely be driven 'round the bend if everyone
were just like you, no?
>
> -Jeremy
Only one Carlitos Crow... and his precious freedom to boot! <smile>
Jeremy Donovan
[...]
All right, then! Geez!! :-)
The new and improved, infinitely humble, wise, witty,
and affectionate St. Carlitos Crow is okay by me.
Provisionally...
To make a *serious* point. :-) There are so many different
meanings and contexts of "freedom" that the entire
conversation we had about it was really quite inane.
I was making it that way intentionally (as for you, well,
I can't say why you were doing it, LOL), simply to express
my ongoing disapproval of the obsessive, absolutist,
extremist, narcissistically unhealthy poo-poo-on-you-
to-any-deranged-TB's-listening-in "freedom" (gag, choke)
pursued by my dear, deceased guru, CC. (Don't worry
St. Crow, I'm okay :-) ). Freedom can of course be quite
valuable too, as long as one does not trash everything else
which is valuable in life over it, like Castaneda did.
-Jeremy
Carlitos Crow
>
> Carlitos Crow <mo...@home.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> All right, then! Geez!! :-)
Good day, Jeremy! I'm delighted to find a response to my last post to
you, thank you for that!
> The new and improved, infinitely humble, wise, witty,
> and affectionate St. Carlitos Crow is okay by me.
There now, no, I'm not seekin' or expectin' any Sainthood, and really, I
don't even know just how new and improved I am, although as I said, I
keep changin' slowly, but yeah, noticeably enough that even I can notice
it, sure.
And infinitely humble... Well, it's truly amazing that one can achieve
such humility, if but for a moment, much like that indescribable freedom
so seemingly fleeting and dear, if perhaps only for that quality...
Yet I am but a man, and men are as a rule not *infinitely* humble, and
shall only bow and scrape to a given point before giving way to some
lesser emotion or feeling or sentiment. No one truly enjoys grovelling.
And it's pathetic to witness, or be party to, any way you cut it.
The truly humble man may hold his head high, and smile up at the sun as
it shines down upon him, and greet his fellows with equanimity, resigned
yet glad to meet once again on such favorable terms, as friends facing
the difficulties of the good life ahead, willing to help one another in
any way they can...perhaps the one with matters of the gravest nature,
the other in such frivolities as to seem outlandish and superfluous, yet
so very alluring and captivating nonetheless.
> Provisionally...
>
> To make a *serious* point. :-)
Is there any other kind?
> There are so many different
> meanings and contexts of "freedom" that the entire
> conversation we had about it was really quite inane.
I don't know... It has been rather pleasant, and that's ...well, it's
good! I've been enjoying it very much, thank you.
> I was making it that way intentionally
And the result of that intentionality remains heartfelt and good, and is
a mark of your true respect for me, and you bein' someone I've come to
respect, I honour and appreciate that very much.
(as for you, well,
> I can't say why you were doing it, LOL)
Haven't I already told you why? I enjoy it! I enjoy sharing what I can
share here which might be so enjoyable for you and for others, that's
all. And it's a struggle to do so, and I so enjoy that struggle too.
It tempers me; I am learning to forge ahead, to strike while the iron is
hot and malleable, to quench the raging heat evenly, and to hone those
rough edges dilligently before heating and hammering all over again.
> simply to express
> my ongoing disapproval of the obsessive, absolutist,
> extremist, narcissistically unhealthy poo-poo-on-you-
> to-any-deranged-TB's-listening-in "freedom" (gag, choke)
> pursued by my dear, deceased guru, CC.
Well now, I'm actually still quite intrigued by this 'cult' trouble, of
course, or I'd not peck away here as I'm still wont to do on occasion.
And the trouble isn't (or 'wasn't', I s'pose) simply Castaneda's, it is
still ours as well. For us men it could so easily be called 'women
trouble' and for the women, it is 'men trouble', and of course our
sexuality is at the heart of it, would you agree with any of this so far?
> (Don't worry
> St. Crow, I'm okay :-) ).
You seem fine to me. I don't 'worry', really. I press on, seeking
another avenue which might be a bit more productive or constructive,
just as you seem to wish to do. And I don't mind taking Castaneda's
'trouble' as an example, and trying to understand us all a bit better
through the intelligent use of whatever we can know about it, and I
trust in your findings and in your sincere expression regarding these
painful issues.
> Freedom can of course be quite
> valuable too,
We are so hopelessly lost and worthless without it, or without some
'dream' of it, in my honest and humble opinion. And it is precisely
this *fact* which Castaneda evidently took advantage of, and thereby
missed his own boat, so to speak. I have no desire to repeat what he
did, and so far, so good, for I haven't. Yet I do so enjoy the real
freedom I have, and it's irresistible to many, and I continue to
struggle to find ways to help folks to 'see' it for themselves, and to
use it wisely myself in my inevitable dealings and interactions with them.
> as long as one does not trash everything else
> which is valuable in life over it, like Castaneda did.
Ah, but so very many people *do* trash the good things in life, without
needing Castaneda to excuse them for it. That *is* the trouble, and I
still believe Castaneda must have struggled hard with it before toppling
into his own web of power-hunger.
And my hat's still off to him for having tried; there are always others
involved, aren't there! And we must try just as he once did, and in our
success we must continue to keep on trying, for it is never all done,
there is no 'cap' or 'golden clasp' on unconditional love and the
continuing search for its truest expression.
>
> -Jeremy
Carlitos Crow
chris rodgers
Carlitos Crow wrote:
I imagine life in hell (if there was such a place as hell) would be
to have to read Carlitos Crow and Gander's stuff over and over.
You guys have the great ability to write stuff but where's is
the punch line? It's like eating chinese food, 3 seconds after
you read it you wonder what the fuck you just read? :)
Carlitos Crow
>
> Carlitos Crow wrote:
>
> I imagine life in hell (if there was such a place as hell) would be
> to have to read Carlitos Crow and Gander's stuff over and over.
Hi there, Chris! <chuckling> Well things take awhile to develop, don't they?
And you don't have to read anything here, so it isn't so hellish as all that.
> You guys have the great ability to write stuff but where's is
> the punch line?
I guess in my recent exchanges with Jeremy we've not come to it yet. Or
perhaps there really isn't one, bein' that it's not a joke, but an
attempt at a 'serious' exchange. Perhaps Jeremy shall make all the
points; I don't mind, so long as I may be instrumental in stimulating a
refreshing view or review of a tired and worn-out topic of discussion
for the most of us.
> It's like eating chinese food, 3 seconds after
> you read it you wonder what the fuck you just read? :)
Just an opening. It isn't Chinese food. It's likely to be far more
sustaining than noodles.
Did you enjoy the article presented us here by Ps? Some folks claim to
live on nothing but consecated wafers and the love of god. I wonder
what the good woman's blood is made of? Special sauce, maybe? <grin>
Was there a punchline to that story? If so, I guess I missed that one.
Crow
Jeremy Donovan
>> The new and improved, infinitely humble, wise, witty,
>> and affectionate St. Carlitos Crow is okay by me.
>
>There now, no, I'm not seekin' or expectin' any Sainthood, and really, I
>don't even know just how new and improved I am, although as I said, I
>keep changin' slowly, but yeah, noticeably enough that even I can notice
>it, sure.
>
>And infinitely humble... Well, it's truly amazing that one can achieve
>such humility, if but for a moment, much like that indescribable freedom
>so seemingly fleeting and dear, if perhaps only for that quality...
>
>Yet I am but a man, and men are as a rule not *infinitely* humble, and
>shall only bow and scrape to a given point before giving way to some
>lesser emotion or feeling or sentiment. No one truly enjoys grovelling.
> And it's pathetic to witness, or be party to, any way you cut it.
>
>The truly humble man may hold his head high, and smile up at the sun as
>it shines down upon him, and greet his fellows with equanimity, resigned
>yet glad to meet once again on such favorable terms, as friends facing
>the difficulties of the good life ahead, willing to help one another in
>any way they can...perhaps the one with matters of the gravest nature,
>the other in such frivolities as to seem outlandish and superfluous, yet
>so very alluring and captivating nonetheless.
Dang, being a saint isn't enough.
You're also running for Mayor?
[...]
>> simply to express
>> my ongoing disapproval of the obsessive, absolutist,
>> extremist, narcissistically unhealthy poo-poo-on-you-
>> to-any-deranged-TB's-listening-in "freedom" (gag, choke)
>> pursued by my dear, deceased guru, CC.
>Well now, I'm actually still quite intrigued by this 'cult' trouble, of
>course, or I'd not peck away here as I'm still wont to do on occasion.
>And the trouble isn't (or 'wasn't', I s'pose) simply Castaneda's, it is
>still ours as well. For us men it could so easily be called 'women
>trouble' and for the women, it is 'men trouble', and of course our
>sexuality is at the heart of it, would you agree with any of this so far?
Sounds like you are talking about only one specific aspect of
the trouble with the version of freedom Castaneda presented.
It's quite a bit broader, yet it may be possible to generalize.
Since I am not advocating any such obsessive pursuit of freedom,
no, it's not my trouble -- that is, not as long as I refrain
from making the grave error of letting a person into my life
who DOES buy into it completely. Perhaps the best way to
generalize is to say that it's about "respect trouble".
A person who operates in the obsessed, extremist mode
advocated by Castaneda tends to blatently *disrespect*
other people's lives, activities, and feelings. They tend
to treat people merely as objects to be used, then discarded,
with virtually *everything* else in life treated merely as
the "things" one discards in frantic pursuit of this alleged
absolute freedom (which is itself purely imaginary, anyway).
But no, it's not just about sex, or love; the utter
disrespect for the lives of others extends to virtually
every area of life.
Here's a modified version of a poem I wrote which should
explain what I mean rather well:
Too Free
Too free to help, and too free to care,
too free to nurture, comfort, explain -
too free to speak, and too free to share,
too free to fix it when another's in pain.
Too free for your parents, too free for your child,
too free for brothers, sisters, aunts -
too free for old friends who take up your time,
too free for naivete like romance.
Too free to give, and too free to take,
too free to repay when you take anyway,
too free to admit it when you make a mistake,
too free to grow old and die one day.
Too free for truth, and too free for love,
too free for these too common realities,
too free for the game you were so high above,
Free one, you were always just too free for me!
>I still believe Castaneda must have struggled hard with it
>before toppling into his own web of power-hunger.
You can see the set up for what he did, the moment you start
looking at the practical consequences of his idealities without
the obsessive focus and blinders of a TB -- because it's
throughout his writings on how to be a "warrior".
Carlitos Crow
[]
> Dang, being a saint isn't enough.
I'm not after anything other than a fine friendship, and that requires
love, patience, understanding, respect, thoughtfulness, caring,
acceptance of differences, and willingness to strike a functional
balance in all of these things.
A tall order. Yet I've no expectations, only hopes that we'd accept
such a fine and worthy challenge.
> You're also running for Mayor?
No, of course not. Just gettin' a bit serious, so we might get on a bit
better.
>
> [...]
>
> >> simply to express
> >> my ongoing disapproval of the obsessive, absolutist,
> >> extremist, narcissistically unhealthy poo-poo-on-you-
> >> to-any-deranged-TB's-listening-in "freedom" (gag, choke)
> >> pursued by my dear, deceased guru, CC.
>
> >Well now, I'm actually still quite intrigued by this 'cult' trouble, of
> >course, or I'd not peck away here as I'm still wont to do on occasion.
> >And the trouble isn't (or 'wasn't', I s'pose) simply Castaneda's, it is
> >still ours as well. For us men it could so easily be called 'women
> >trouble' and for the women, it is 'men trouble', and of course our
> >sexuality is at the heart of it, would you agree with any of this so far?
>
> Sounds like you are talking about only one specific aspect of
> the trouble with the version of freedom Castaneda presented.
> It's quite a bit broader, yet it may be possible to generalize.
> Since I am not advocating any such obsessive pursuit of freedom,
> no, it's not my trouble --
Never your trouble? Are you 'trouble free', Jeremy? Seems to me you
said you'd left your wife at some point.
What was the trouble there, if I may be so brash in askin' here and now?
Sounds like 'woman trouble' to me... Wasn't it?
that is, not as long as I refrain
> from making the grave error of letting a person into my life
> who DOES buy into it completely.
But folks are already *in* your life; it's not just a matter of *letting
them in*... That sounds oh so very elitist, no?
Even I am currently in your life, if only as a sort of pesky 'image' or
cartoon figment of your imagination.
Perhaps the best way to
> generalize is to say that it's about "respect trouble".
Alright then, let's start there, fine with me. The most common trouble
there is, most evidently. Why is it so important?
Just a couple of posts ago you told me I'd finally got something right:
that I was living without need of your respect, and that it seemed most
doubtful that I'd ever have that, for all the other things I may so
enjoy crowin' about. And I told you then that you had mine, and still
you do. And then I said I'd be willing to change up a bit, if only to
show a genuine willingness to try to understand your veiws here, and
hopefully gain your respect for making that attempt. So I ask you now;
is there *anyone* here posting at ADC who has your respect? Because if
not, it seems rather as if it is *you* who has 'respect troubles' here, no?
> A person who operates in the obsessed, extremist mode
> advocated by Castaneda tends to blatently *disrespect*
> other people's lives,activities, and feelings.
There are a number of your postings here now which would so very readily
illustrate your own lack of respect for others here. Being that this is
all most any of us have to go on, it might be so easy to draw
conclusions about you as being so 'blatantly disrespectful', as wrong as
such conclusions may be in truth. So I wonder what you feel about
ADseers, really. Or anyone beyond the confines of this li'l newsgroup actually.
> They tend
> to treat people merely as objects to be used, then discarded,
Well, you've almost said as much of your own treatment of me here, just
as a platform for thumpin' these 'TBers' you've concocted for the
purposes of your own self-important grand-standing. You've *not*
treated me respectfully, beyond feeling 'pestered' into a response to
me, a legitimate poster here, and a loving family man, still living with
his dear wife (no, not a second marriage) and with a great many friends
both here and in daily life.
> with virtually *everything* else in life treated merely as
> the "things" one discards in frantic pursuit of this alleged
> absolute freedom (which is itself purely imaginary, anyway).
Well now perhaps you've said something *significant* yourself. You
*degrade* the idea of *pure imagination* as if it were the boogey-man
which keeps you locked out of your own 'pure imagination'. It isn't.
You are trapped, and an ally stands at the door; it is so painfully
evident to me, and perhaps to others, despite this being merely an
imaginative interpretation of the true state of affairs.
> But no, it's not just about sex, or love; the utter
> disrespect for the lives of others extends to virtually
> every area of life.
Alright. So what got *you* so *hooked* on bein' a 'TB' of Castaneda's
fantasies then? You say you spent more than a decade, livin' and
breathin' this stuff. Did *you* leave your family and friends during
that period? Did you renounce the day-to-day world as a frightful hell
perpetrated and perpetuated by power-hungry 'sorcerers and black magicians'?
Why did you 'follow' Castaneda; what was so wrong with your life before
you read those books that you had to 'vanquish all that, and live as a
warrior'? Same thing that's still wrong, as I 'see' it, Jeremy, and I
guess you're gettin' pretty used to folks tellin' you so, and your
tough, warriors' hide keeps shuckin' all that away...
Love is a war; it always has been. And folks are repressed, and
unhappy, and many naturally seek escape from their repression; it is
very painful. And you are one of them; why wouldn't you be?
>
> Here's a modified version of a poem I wrote which should
> explain what I mean rather well:
>
> Too Free
That's silly. One is either free or not. 'Too free' is insensible.
>
> Too free to help, and too free to care,
> too free to nurture, comfort, explain -
> too free to speak, and too free to share,
> too free to fix it when another's in pain.
>
> Too free for your parents, too free for your child,
> too free for brothers, sisters, aunts -
> too free for old friends who take up your time,
> too free for naivete like romance.
>
> Too free to give, and too free to take,
> too free to repay when you take anyway,
> too free to admit it when you make a mistake,
> too free to grow old and die one day.
>
> Too free for truth, and too free for love,
> too free for these too common realities,
> too free for the game you were so high above,
> Free one, you were always just too free for me!
>
> >I still believe Castaneda must have struggled hard with it
> >before toppling into his own web of power-hunger.
>
> You can see the set up for what he did, the moment you start
> looking at the practical consequences of his idealities without
> the obsessive focus and blinders of a TB -- because it's
> throughout his writings on how to be a "warrior".
One cannot 'blame' writings for people's behavior. One must take
responsibility for how one interprets and acts.
And you seem trigger-happy, unable to face up to your silly error, and
attempt to make any amends at all.
Is this true?
>
> -Jeremy
love, Crow It's tough, but it's the real deal.
rainbowbird
>
>
> Dang, being a saint isn't enough.
> You're also running for Mayor?
>
> [...]
Just to remember:
The only real saints here are just ST. Ether and me.
All other Saints are blatant imitations.
Saint Danyatha.
slider
chris wrote
### - heh heh heh chris, this one has me chuckling-away at your above
comments (nice simile by the way:) - but what it is, is that some
people are capable of being very subtle in what they say and exactly
how they word it etc, sometimes even saying much more in some ways by
implication alone and by the use of subtle-innuendoes etc than when
it's all spelled-out (at least with crow it is anyway... i.e. his last
post for example had me really laughing because he is (imho:) sort of
subtly taking the piss etc, yet at the same time he was actually also
being very kind to jeremy in many ways in gently (but persistently)
offering him a way out of that corner jeremy's apparently in:)
with gander, imho he's very clear in what he's trying to say but
the language translation from his to ours doesn't carry well and
so many times the points are completely missed at one end (or
the other) and so it then appears that things are getting repeated
a lot (at least that's my experience with him anyway:) - but
otherwise he's obviously very sharp...
i'm going to take this up further with gander in another thread, but
could you possibly accept that in the hands of a master, amazing
things can maybe achieved with words and language? (i.e. for an
example think of the idea of there being different aspects to sorcery
in that some shamans were curers and others dancers etc - plus some
were story-tellers?)
or if you like metaphors... think of some of the old jazz-players who
were all accepted and acknowledged genius's in their own right, and
whose magic (if you like) was to totally and originally improvise
their music at a very high level - and then consider someone doing the
very same thing only with words and language instead! - and basically
what you got is a kind of word-smith (only i don't really like the
term because it sounds too much of something like a factory output:)
i.e. imho a simple but true example of this might be "certain forms"
of poetry perhaps? - and in which the poet is perhaps attempting to
even communicate something "beyond" words to the recipient:)
there is another example i know of in which knowledge is "imparted"
rather than taught directly... the very strange effect of this method
(and one i can personally vouch for through my own experience;) is
that things said are forgotten at the time and only come back to you
much later with a sensation very much like as though you somehow
already knew this before, and as such seems like it is your "own"
realisation instead of anothers - (even though you are (sometimes)
fully aware at the time who actually gave you that:)
plus for those who "don't" realise where it came from (plus sometimes
this is actually intended) then you will just see them going around
next week now stating something different from before and they not
even realising someone actually gave it to them - (i.e. to them it
appears as being "their own" realisation, and which of course is that
much more powerful and/or empowering;)
plus i know... it all sounds like so much gobbleydegook doesn't it
matey:) - but well, you tend to use what you got is all eh:) - and
everyone's good at "something" - ya' know:)
regards...
Jeremy Donovan
>The only real saints here are just ST. Ether and me.
>All other Saints are blatant imitations.
>
>
>Saint Danyatha.
How could one with any discernment possibly forget? :-)
The difference is evident in virtually every phrase.
I am often sarcastic or sly, yet often sincere,
and it may take a saint to tell when it's one or the other.
All by way of confessing. What is there for the lowly,
but to imitate a saint in faint hope of one day ascending.
-Jeremy
big tit
a person he likes, in your case he simply thought you and E were sexy, so he
thought he would make you saints, he will take your sainthood of you if you dont
bend over enough GOT IT!
In article <3B620A98...@cable.a2000.nl>, rainbowbird says...
henry
feelings will do that
share honesty
thanks jd
hank
Jeremy Donovan wrote:
>.....
rainbowbird
> dont you know how this works, first jesus in the course of his day, comes across
> a person he likes, in your case he simply thought you and E were sexy, so he
> thought he would make you saints, he will take your sainthood of you if you dont
> bend over enough GOT IT!
Scary :)