not a very nice dream...

[slider]

### - just woke from a non-lucid but very vivid dream of 2 live nukes
(tests?) launched from this country, the first some distance away, no
sound but an eerie increased light followed by a kind of dust seen as an
approaching ground-based cloud, the second a few moments later seen as
though from my apartment window; am looking out of it only to see a black
& white missile climbing high into the sky, first stage completed it
splits in two and continues climbing + disappears out of sight, now am
outside on the street in the sunshine, there's a dull and distant thud and
the daylight around me begins to rapidly increase and i press my hands
tightly over my eyes so i wont be blinded, only i can still see it through
my hands and closed eyes! again there's no sound but am worried/scared,
back in my apartment am flicking through the tv channels looking for any
news about it, nada...

don't much like dreams like this hah!

it's bad vibes :D

[pincheculero]

what so bad in your life now to
make you scared?

[slider]

> what so bad in your life now to
> make you scared?

### - can't really think of anything like that?

am more bored than scared heh :)

[shitholio]

strange dream indeed last night mama.
But hey aren't they all just little whacky ?
Sure they are, they all seem to be making
sense UNTIL something so outlandish tips the
scale and bingo! You're lucid once again.
I was kicking ass in this dream because someone was
going to kill somebody or something, not that
i cared but i thought this little of a bitch
ain't killin' nobdody. That's when i knew i was
lucid and i went after them. I overpowered them
with body strength and then bit into some guy.
I could actually taste the salt on his skin as I
bit into him. I usually don't bite people, but
you know in dreams anything goes. I had so many
different dreams (all lucid) i thought i was never
going to wake up. In fact at one point i wanted to
wake up just to make sure that i was dreaming.
I feel like a different person today from that dream.
I went to bed feeling about half past dead last night
from a shitty cold or flu. Son of a bitch i felt bad.
I just wanted some damn relieve from feeling sick. So
I asked the "creator" within (like i know who or what
the fuck that is) if they could help me out here a little
with healing. Of course it's me talking to myself. What
the fuck did i have to loose. Something did help me out
in the most wonderful way. I had the most delightful dream
i think i've ever had in my life. It was everything came
together and everything was going be alright. Can't say
i've ever experienced anything like that. Why did i have
so much lucidity last night? Well could be that i woke up at
3:30 AM after my dogs started barking? Why sure, i'm guessin'
a coyote cruised through the area and set off my dogs.
I already tossed and turned half the night so i got up and looked
around to see if the coyote(s) were in the yard or side yard.
I went back to bed quickly and fell in to this series of dreams.
I did take about 3mg's of melatonin before i went to bed last night.
Man all i wanted to do was get a good nights sleep, that's it.
Interesting feeling you can get from being lucid. I like it. :)

[slider]

sir of the dild-oooh! wrote... :)

> strange dream indeed last night mama.
> But hey aren't they all just little whacky ?
> Sure they are, they all seem to be making
> sense UNTIL something so outlandish tips the
> scale and bingo! You're lucid once again.

### - still WILDing in yer then sleep eh? (WILDing with a lower case w heh)

ya lazy barsteward ya! (j/k) :D

> I was kicking ass in this dream because someone was
> going to kill somebody or something, not that
> i cared but i thought this little of a bitch
> ain't killin' nobdody. That's when i knew i was
> lucid and i went after them. I overpowered them
> with body strength and then bit into some guy.
> I could actually taste the salt on his skin as I
> bit into him. I usually don't bite people, but
> you know in dreams anything goes.

### - not lucid enough though to realise the futility of bashing-up your
dream characters heh ;)

> I had so many
> different dreams (all lucid) i thought i was never
> going to wake up. In fact at one point i wanted to
> wake up just to make sure that i was dreaming.

### - been there a few times too: is this 'really' only a dream??

> I feel like a different person today from that dream.

### - prolonged lucid dreaming seems to consistently do this, a short
single dream may leave ya feeling somewhat energised (a bit anyhoo)
whereas longer ones, or even a series of them, nearly always results in an
unusual sense of detachment that lingers for quite some time after
waking...

i.e., one's usual 'familiarity' with the waking world is, and remains,
somewhat noticeably suspended for a while, often ending with a sensation
of something all clicking back together as one becomes again recognisably
oneself... (a couple of hours solid WILDing always does this for moi
anyway, so maybe it's the same from prolonged dilds too...)

> I went to bed feeling about half past dead last night
> from a shitty cold or flu. Son of a bitch i felt bad.
> I just wanted some damn relieve from feeling sick.

### - to be/feel ill like that, is to actually be in a slightly altered
state of awareness anyway before ya even begin, and perhaps even helps to
explain your facility for many such lucid dreams last night

> So
> I asked the "creator" within (like i know who or what
> the fuck that is) if they could help me out here a little
> with healing. Of course it's me talking to myself. What
> the fuck did i have to loose. Something did help me out
> in the most wonderful way. I had the most delightful dream
> i think i've ever had in my life. It was everything came
> together and everything was going be alright. Can't say
> i've ever experienced anything like that.

### - appears you asked and received/gave to yourself just what you needed
to be/feel well?

now this is gonna sound a bit nuts (heh) so it's a good job jeremy ain't
around to flip-out on me over it hah... and that is; that i've noticed
'some' head colds can defo be the direct result of malicious intent on
some bastard's part (they can send a damaging vibe that makes ya ill to
varying degrees; strange head colds being a common one of 'em, hence maybe
your dream of peeps getting hurt and your subsequent refusal to let it
happen? ya kicked the snot outta him/them and even bit the bastard too
lol... been upsetting/annoying peeps again while driving have ya's? gots
to watch that ya know...)

> Why did i have
> so much lucidity last night? Well could be that i woke up at
> 3:30 AM after my dogs started barking? Why sure, i'm guessin'
> a coyote cruised through the area and set off my dogs.
> I already tossed and turned half the night so i got up and looked
> around to see if the coyote(s) were in the yard or side yard.
> I went back to bed quickly and fell in to this series of dreams.
> I did take about 3mg's of melatonin before i went to bed last night.
> Man all i wanted to do was get a good nights sleep, that's it.

### - full of excuses & rationalisations except for the right one?

if anything, and imho, perhaps being unwell to begin with has the
advantage of starting off from the pov of already being slightly out of it
(was already fairly loose in your socket/dimple heh) coupled with the wbtb
technique; had you unwittingly WILDing (with a lower case w) and flitting
back & forth for a prolonged period, something which is known to cause a
distinct sensation/feeling of detachment on waking + a boost in energy
that might just have repaired the damage that caused your cold...

> Interesting feeling you can get from being lucid. I like it. :)

### - know what you mean old son, i know exactly whatcha mean...

and i rather like it too; a feeling of somehow being somewhat more...
full/complete?

'deliberately' WILDing, however, definitely magnifies the sensation, to
the point it can be examined more easily and apparently (if ya gonna do
something it's always better-er to do it deliberately instead accidentally
i mean... assuming one can accept the responsibility of it that is heh...)
:)

[shitholio]

> ### - still WILDing in yer then sleep eh? (WILDing with a lower case w heh)

honestly you wish you can have a lucid dream like this.
this fucker was epic.

> ya lazy barsteward ya! (j/k) :D

i am such a bastard, in fact my two sisters are bastards also.

> ### - not lucid enough though to realise the futility of bashing-up your
> dream characters heh ;)

well i didn't go completely crazy, it started me going so it was ok.

> ### - been there a few times too: is this 'really' only a dream??

dude this puts taking power plants as baby stuff.

> ### - prolonged lucid dreaming seems to consistently do this, a short
> single dream may leave ya feeling somewhat energised (a bit anyhoo)
> whereas longer ones, or even a series of them, nearly always results in an
> unusual sense of detachment that lingers for quite some time after
> waking...

i was just shooting for some healing, remember, not trying to save the
world this week. (maybe next week?) ha ha

> i.e., one's usual 'familiarity' with the waking world is, and remains,
> somewhat noticeably suspended for a while, often ending with a sensation
> of something all clicking back together as one becomes again recognisably
> oneself... (a couple of hours solid WILDing always does this for moi
> anyway, so maybe it's the same from prolonged dilds too...)

realizing the amount of power that is at your fingertips in a
lucid dream is unbelievable. it real is available.

> ### - to be/feel ill like that, is to actually be in a slightly altered
> state of awareness anyway before ya even begin, and perhaps even helps to
> explain your facility for many such lucid dreams last night

Perhaps Dr. Wild, you may be correcto.

> ### - appears you asked and received/gave to yourself just what you needed
> to be/feel well?

well i'm not completely well but i am definitely on my way. One more good
night of sleep and i might just wake up tomorrow feeling good again.
I don't like being sick, i'm not a good "patient".

> now this is gonna sound a bit nuts (heh) so it's a good job jeremy ain't
> around to flip-out on me over it hah... and that is; that i've noticed
> 'some' head colds can defo be the direct result of malicious intent on
> some bastard's part (they can send a damaging vibe that makes ya ill to
> varying degrees; strange head colds being a common one of 'em, hence maybe
> your dream of peeps getting hurt and your subsequent refusal to let it
> happen? ya kicked the snot outta him/them and even bit the bastard too
> lol... been upsetting/annoying peeps again while driving have ya's? gots
> to watch that ya know...)

there is kind of epidemic here in USA, particularly california with
the flu or colds. Has killed a few people i hear.

> ### - full of excuses & rationalisations except for the right one?

let me know when you discover the right one eh?

> if anything, and imho, perhaps being unwell to begin with has the
> advantage of starting off from the pov of already being slightly out of it
> (was already fairly loose in your socket/dimple heh) coupled with the wbtb
> technique; had you unwittingly WILDing (with a lower case w) and flitting
> back & forth for a prolonged period, something which is known to cause a
> distinct sensation/feeling of detachment on waking + a boost in energy
> that might just have repaired the damage that caused your cold...

so does that mean i had a loosy ap appearing on the scene dr. carlos?

> 'deliberately' WILDing, however, definitely magnifies the sensation, to
> the point it can be examined more easily and apparently (if ya gonna do
> something it's always better-er to do it deliberately instead accidentally
> i mean... assuming one can accept the responsibility of it that is heh...)
> :)

well when one is in the groove of lucidity it's all or nothing. You ether
have awareness OR you're still a little asleep. It's the available memory
or energy is present so you grab that sucker and run like a bastard.

[slider]

>> ### - still WILDing in yer then sleep eh? (WILDing with a lower case w
>> heh)
>
> honestly you wish you can have a lucid dream like this.
> this fucker was epic.

### - WILDs are epic, can't describe them any other way

>> ### - not lucid enough though to realise the futility of bashing-up your
>> dream characters heh ;)
>
> well i didn't go completely crazy, it started me going so it was ok.

### - was only kidding ya heh... am personally rather a snob in my dreams
haha, have dispassionately examined quite a few DC's by now (even slapped
a few of 'em around lol to see what they're made of) and they don't fool
me one bit anymore hah!

if i ever found myself in a similar situation (something i doubt will ever
happen as all my lucid dreams these days are actually quite orderly with
hardly anything happening in them like fights and rows etc, but is more
like wandering around on an empty set...) i'd likely just completely
ignore them and go off on my own exploration instead (was what i meant)

>
>
>> ### - been there a few times too: is this 'really' only a dream??
>
> dude this puts taking power plants as baby stuff.

### - this is WILDing heh, it (full WILDS) also puts yer average dilds
into contrast too, a seeming immediately noticeable qualitative difference
that jeremy fiercely denies exists (for petty reasons of his own) but
which is definitely the case as just about anyone who experiences a WILD
attests to, including even the half-assed WILDs generated using wbtb which
most peeps describe as always being particularly vivid and more easy to
remember than usual...

>
>> ### - prolonged lucid dreaming seems to consistently do this, a short
>> single dream may leave ya feeling somewhat energised (a bit anyhoo)
>> whereas longer ones, or even a series of them, nearly always results in
>> an
>> unusual sense of detachment that lingers for quite some time after
>> waking...
>
> i was just shooting for some healing, remember, not trying to save the
> world this week. (maybe next week?) ha ha

### - totally accept you weren't shooting for anything in particular,
hence an 'unwitting' WILD (and hence also my very slight dig at you for
still doing things in your sleep hehehe... wake up! grinz...)

>
>> i.e., one's usual 'familiarity' with the waking world is, and remains,
>> somewhat noticeably suspended for a while, often ending with a sensation
>> of something all clicking back together as one becomes again
>> recognisably
>> oneself... (a couple of hours solid WILDing always does this for moi
>> anyway, so maybe it's the same from prolonged dilds too...)
>
> realizing the amount of power that is at your fingertips in a
> lucid dream is unbelievable. it real is available.

### - power over one's own imagination & its creations while dreaming
perhaps, but with the added possibility of also powerfully affecting one's
waking awareness too in that, for a little while afterwards at least,
one's more usual perception of the waking world is noticeably
different/altered (i described this altered awareness to be akin to having
been away from home for a few weeks, returning home, and noticing how
everything persistently looks a little different for a few days until you
at last feel like you're completely back home again...)

>
>> ### - to be/feel ill like that, is to actually be in a slightly altered
>> state of awareness anyway before ya even begin, and perhaps even helps
>> to
>> explain your facility for many such lucid dreams last night
>
> Perhaps Dr. Wild, you may be correcto.

### - that awareness CAN be different is a given/no-brainer, and actually
involves quite a large spectrum/range too... being ill definitely
impinging on one more normal awareness, only usually people feel too ill
(out of sorts/uncomfortable in themselves at the time) to be bothered to
experiment with it any, one mainly craving to just feel normal/well
again... the trick there (with altered awareness brought about by illness
i mean) is to not focus on the suffering self at all, and to attempt to
look beyond it (and yourself feeling unwell) in order to then catch a
glimpse of the world looking/being different for a little while (we
usually do notice things looking different from normal when ill, but put
this all down to not being very well and discard it altogether rather than
examining it further + feel too ill to be bothered with anything... the
more ill you are being the harder it is to look beyond it, but light colds
and such like always afford an opportunity to see/look at the world with
slightly different eyes for a little while...) shades of "heightened
awareness" perhaps?

>
>> ### - appears you asked and received/gave to yourself just what you
>> needed
>> to be/feel well?
>
> well i'm not completely well but i am definitely on my way. One more
> good
> night of sleep and i might just wake up tomorrow feeling good again.
> I don't like being sick, i'm not a good "patient".

### - no one is hehehe... but if ya has a plan to 'use' (or try to use)
the situation the next time it occurs instead of just feeling like shit
and hating it, it then becomes possible to be a slightly better patient,
one who's deliberately laying in-wait for it to come around and then
exploiting the novel situation instead of merely suffering from it and
complaining hahaha ;)

>
>> now this is gonna sound a bit nuts (heh) so it's a good job jeremy ain't
>> around to flip-out on me over it hah... and that is; that i've noticed
>> 'some' head colds can defo be the direct result of malicious intent on
>> some bastard's part (they can send a damaging vibe that makes ya ill to
>> varying degrees; strange head colds being a common one of 'em, hence
>> maybe
>> your dream of peeps getting hurt and your subsequent refusal to let it
>> happen? ya kicked the snot outta him/them and even bit the bastard too
>> lol... been upsetting/annoying peeps again while driving have ya's? gots
>> to watch that ya know...)
>
> there is kind of epidemic here in USA, particularly california with
> the flu or colds. Has killed a few people i hear.

### - here too apparently, came from japan or something this time but more
usually from china

the kinda head-colds am referring to being more along the lines of just
one person having it for no good reason seemingly, obviously there's a
marked difference between the contagious kind and someone getting one
quite outta the blue...

>
>
>> ### - full of excuses & rationalisations except for the right one?
>
> let me know when you discover the right one eh?
>
>> if anything, and imho, perhaps being unwell to begin with has the
>> advantage of starting off from the pov of already being slightly out of
>> it
>> (was already fairly loose in your socket/dimple heh) coupled with the
>> wbtb
>> technique; had you unwittingly WILDing (with a lower case w) and
>> flitting
>> back & forth for a prolonged period, something which is known to cause a
>> distinct sensation/feeling of detachment on waking + a boost in energy
>> that might just have repaired the damage that caused your cold...
>
> so does that mean i had a loosy ap appearing on the scene dr. carlos?

### - if ya wanna call it that, then yes heh... (i know you like/use his
model sometimes i mean + was said/used entirely for your benefit alone so
you'd know what am going-on about...)

my own version (said to myself i mean) being more along the lines of a
ball & cup socket-type arrangement that one's more usual/standard
awareness rests comfortably in, but which can come out of its socket to
varying degrees and be experienced differently... (i don't know if that's
strictly true either, it's just how i kinda explain it to myself without
getting stuck on the idea, or any idea come to that...) various
'allusions' referring to something that can't really be described too
good/in any other way, the difference being that cc asserted his model was
mechanically accurate and not only an allusion... that in cc's
model/terms; your AP was probably looser than normal due to illness and
thus you had no problem shifting it a bit more to go half WILD on (i.e.,
you've applied wbtb before many times successfully, only this time + due
to being ill/out of sorts (already halfway out of your skull heh) you went
much farther with it and had a 'series' of lucid dreams that were probably
WILDs, only you didn't realise that exactly else they would been full
WILDs...

>
>
>> 'deliberately' WILDing, however, definitely magnifies the sensation, to
>> the point it can be examined more easily and apparently (if ya gonna do
>> something it's always better-er to do it deliberately instead
>> accidentally
>> i mean... assuming one can accept the responsibility of it that is
>> heh...)
>> :)
>
> well when one is in the groove of lucidity it's all or nothing. You
> ether
> have awareness OR you're still a little asleep. It's the available
> memory
> or energy is present so you grab that sucker and run like a bastard.

### - well, with WILDs, one arguably isn't even actually asleep heh... so
usually lucidity is as-full and as-complete as when waking, dilds usually
varying quite considerably from dream to dream as standard, whereas with
WILDs it's always full as you go into the dream state with exactly the
same awareness you lay down to dream with! (no room for error see?)

with dilds, you're totally depending on 'opportunity' alone (pure chance!)
to supply the lucid dream, whereas with WILDs you only ever dream by
choice alone! (thus, imho, half-WILDs don't really count for anything as
they're not deliberately initiated, but are kinda inadvertently stumbled
into, and as such are often mistakenly considered to just be rather vivid
dilds resulting from no known cause...)

thus the only way to have total control over the dream state (and of
oneself being in it) is via full WILDing + the distinct realisation that
you've just quite deliberately + in full conscious waking awareness of
doing so: PUT yourself there!

"epic" doesn't even begin to describe the resulting state of ultra-lucid
awareness heh, nor does it describe the acute volition one experiences in
the dream state under such circumstances!

peeps really haven't cottened to it yet, but, because of their nature,
WILDs are set to eventually displace dilds altogether as the method of
choice when it comes to lucid dreaming...

not yet as there's still quite a lot of disinformation about WILDs &
WILDing to be overcome, dilds still rule, but soon when peeps realise the
control WILDs afford compared to dilds...

WILDs Vs. DILDs! an awareness war?

the battle for which has hardly even been enjoined yet heh ;)

(slider humming: "it's only just begun...")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__VQX2Xn7tI

(assuming we don't blow our silly selves up in the meantime that is huh...)

[shitholio]

> WILDs Vs. DILDs! an awareness war?

> the battle for which has hardly even been enjoined yet heh ;)

> (slider humming: "it's only just begun...")

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__VQX2Xn7tI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmsJT_1pzQs

i was thinking of this more but both songs work.

[shitholio]

well i feel much better this morning.
what a difference a good night of sleep makes.
son of a bitch, i'm ready for Vegas now!

[slider]

> well i feel much better this morning.
> what a difference a good night of sleep makes.
> son of a bitch, i'm ready for Vegas now!

### - ready to go put the bite on vegas now eh? (cool)

then go get 'em cowboy!

yeeehar! :D

[shitholio]

aha ha i've been there enough times
to know who is gonna get the bite.
'and yet' i'm going back again.
spending my kid's inheritance here boss j/k

[slider]

### - no worries heh, but if you're going to the cleaners
i gots a couple of jackets ya can maybe take with ya's? haha :)

$50 to spend on that big-assed show-machine in the lobby no one
ever dares play on coz ya'd have to be crazy to do so hah!

slider is my name
longshots is my game :D

(family motto: Never play safe!)

[shitholio]

well i won some and lost some.
now i'm home again. saw a
great show though. Love by the Beatles
at the Mirage. Best damn Beatles music
i've ever heard. Worth the money to see
this. Made the trip to Vegas worthwhile
this time. Tried out the Highlander and
it performed well with 24 mph. who could
ask for more? Where's my winning lottery
ticket tonight damnit ?

[slider]

> well i won some and lost some.

### - that's life alright :)

> now i'm home again. saw a
> great show though. Love by the Beatles
> at the Mirage. Best damn Beatles music
> i've ever heard. Worth the money to see
> this. Made the trip to Vegas worthwhile
> this time.

### - what made ya decide to go see a show this time?
(or ya always take one in but this time it was cool)

> Tried out the Highlander and
> it performed well with 24 mph. who could
> ask for more?

### - 25 mph?

> Where's my winning lottery
> ticket tonight damnit ?

### - we all love impossible things, but
miracles take a little longer? :)

strange/unusual dream this morning, a mix of WILD & false awakening (i
think...)

was thinking of my old cat who was outside wanting in; and was just laying
in my bed thinking about all this + thinking of getting up to go let the
fucker in, and was just about to do so when i suddenly realised i was in
fact dreaming the whole thing and that the cat's been dead for 20+ years??
seemed so like my real bed i was baffled for several moments...

have had quite a few of these dreams of laying in my real bed and just
waking up from a dream that then turns out to be a dream, or in another
bed that's not where i actually am but that then turns into my real bed at
home as i wake up for real... it's strange to be dreaming of waking up in
bed after having a dream only to find i was only dreaming of being in bed
as i then wake up for real in my own bed??

weird :)

[shitholio]

> ### - what made ya decide to go see a show this time?
> (or ya always take one in but this time it was cool)

someone bought me a ticket. so i went.
damn good show.

> ### - we all love impossible things, but
> miracles take a little longer? :)

it can happen. it happens right when it is suppose to.

> strange/unusual dream this morning, a mix of WILD & false awakening (i
> think...)

> was thinking of my old cat who was outside wanting in; and was just laying
> in my bed thinking about all this + thinking of getting up to go let the
> fucker in, and was just about to do so when i suddenly realised i was in
> fact dreaming the whole thing and that the cat's been dead for 20+ years??
> seemed so like my real bed i was baffled for several moments...
>
> have had quite a few of these dreams of laying in my real bed and just
> waking up from a dream that then turns out to be a dream, or in another
> bed that's not where i actually am but that then turns into my real bed at
> home as i wake up for real... it's strange to be dreaming of waking up in
> bed after having a dream only to find i was only dreaming of being in bed
> as i then wake up for real in my own bed??

> weird :)

so what if all this was a dream? and then we wake up in
death and realize that is the lucid dream? eh?

[slider]

> so what if all this was a dream? and then we wake up in
> death and realize that is the lucid dream? eh?

### - a lucid dream we were mostly asleep in heh...

which would then make it an ordinary dream no? an ordinary dream that we
only sometimes became lucid in (a lucid dream within an ordinary dream?
damn that's complicated!)

so here we all are ordinary-dreaming (not realising it's a dream i mean)
and then at some point we die and wake up in a 'lucid' dream only to
realise we were only ordinary-dreaming all this shit all along? damn! :)

sounds about riiiight heh + doesn't get much more fucked-up (in a dream)
than wallyworld huh

i dunno maan, could be... i did have that weird dild that time that i
thought i must have died in for real because i couldn't feel/sense either
my sleeping body or the midway point (the place between both options) as
usual, and so figured that i must have died and this this was now some
strange 'other' reality i was now facing after death (had a mixture of
happy/sad feelings to have died but also still being aware + facing some
wtf new reality... talk about scratching my head for a few moments in a
dream?? lol...)

and then of course, i woke up in my bed and realised it was only a dild
(one of my first so i didn't know what was going on at the time heh + was
so weird i even mentioned it in the book...)

so 'maybe' what you suggest might have some truth to it; that one day
we'll die for real only to then wake up in a 'lucid' dream and realise
we've just died and now can't go back because the body is no more? (which
is precisely what i felt/thought in that dild...)

it certainly was a very strange (and rather disturbing) dream, and because
IF that's what gonna happen it could be quite freaky? (shit, am dead
already?? d'oh! now what!?)

otoh, maybe WILDing is the way out of all this mess eh? that by
'consciously' being able to lucid dream we might then just develop that
part of us that persists and thus have more choice about the whole thing
in some way? (some of the buddhists, for instance, reckon that
'deliberately' + at the right time entering into a WILD and NOT returning,
is the proper way to go? curious eh...)

could it be that the "dream/energy-body" (to use cc's terms) is what
persists after death IF it's been duly developed in life? or maybe it
survives anyway in all cases, who knows...

the buddhists going the way of WILDs rather than dilds maybe suggesting
that WILDs are the better option, possibly because of the increased sense
of volition one obtains from WILDing (from deliberately being 'able' to
send oneself into the dream state rather than accidentally i mean...)

i guess we'll ALL find out for sure one day huh :)

from a WILDs pov, dilds are still very creepy really, they're always so
weird and pretty strange compared to WILDs which seem almost factual by
comparison + so stable to a point that ya often reach that same stage of
wondering if you're still actually dreaming or not (because it's all so
concretely real-seeming it raises one's doubts) and then have to prove it
to yourself in some way?

slider goes: up-up & awaaay! as proof of dreaming heh

ya can't beat flying for providing such proof...

best reality check i know!

if ya can fly you're defo dreaming alright hah :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38wIuDAq2yg

"lying there staring at the ceiling
waiting for that sleepy feeling..."

[shitholio]

so it could be that all this pre-running
the later life (lucid dream exercise)
gets one in shape for the next part of
the trip, whatever that might be.

pre-running infinity. what if the son
of a bitch was right? i'll have alot
of crow and hat to eat eh ? ha ha

[slider]

### - jeremy would have to eat a lot more than just THAT!

LOL :D

[Jeremy H. Denisovan]

On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 11:18:41 PM UTC-8, slider wrote:
> >> ### - still WILDing in yer then sleep eh? (WILDing with a lower case w
> >> heh)
> >
> > honestly you wish you can have a lucid dream like this.
> > this fucker was epic.
>
> ### - WILDs are epic, can't describe them any other way

You describe some of yours just below, and... not epic.

> >> ### - not lucid enough though to realise the futility of bashing-up your
> >> dream characters heh ;)
> >
> > well i didn't go completely crazy, it started me going so it was ok.
>
> ### - was only kidding ya heh... am personally rather a snob in my dreams
> haha, have dispassionately examined quite a few DC's by now (even slapped
> a few of 'em around lol to see what they're made of) and they don't fool
> me one bit anymore hah!
>
> if i ever found myself in a similar situation (something i doubt will ever
> happen as

Here:

> all my lucid dreams these days are actually quite orderly with
> hardly anything happening in them like fights and rows etc, but is more
> like wandering around on an empty set...)

Yeah, so how is that so very interesting or exciting?

Like 15 years ago or so... half of my lucid dreaming experiences started
becoming more like that, where very often I'd be wandering around all
"hyper-aware" in some empty house or building somewhere, or just walking
around in the dark in my own house as if I'd just gotten up out of bed.
That's one reason I lost interest. How many times does one really need
to do things like that?

> i'd likely just completely
> ignore them and go off on my own exploration instead (was what i meant)

If I didn't like a dream scene or the people in it,
very often that's what I would do too.

> >> ### - been there a few times too: is this 'really' only a dream??
> >
> > dude this puts taking power plants as baby stuff.
>
> ### - this is WILDing heh, it (full WILDS) also puts yer average dilds
> into contrast too, a seeming immediately noticeable qualitative difference
> that jeremy fiercely denies exists (for petty reasons of his own) but
> which is definitely the case as just about anyone who experiences a WILD
> attests to, including even the half-assed WILDs generated using wbtb which
> most peeps describe as always being particularly vivid and more easy to
> remember than usual...

What matters is the degree of lucidity attained, not initiation method.
Chris is often only about half lucid, going by his own descriptions.

> >> ### - prolonged lucid dreaming seems to consistently do this, a short
> >> single dream may leave ya feeling somewhat energised (a bit anyhoo)
> >> whereas longer ones, or even a series of them, nearly always results in
> >> an
> >> unusual sense of detachment that lingers for quite some time after
> >> waking...
> >
> > i was just shooting for some healing, remember, not trying to save the
> > world this week. (maybe next week?) ha ha
>
> ### - totally accept you weren't shooting for anything in particular,
> hence an 'unwitting' WILD (and hence also my very slight dig at you for
> still doing things in your sleep hehehe... wake up! grinz...)

Chris didn't say he was WILDing. He said he took melatonin
and went to sleep. Then he woke up in the middle of the night
before going back to sleep and dreaming more.

> >> i.e., one's usual 'familiarity' with the waking world is, and remains,
> >> somewhat noticeably suspended for a while, often ending with a sensation
> >> of something all clicking back together as one becomes again
> >> recognisably
> >> oneself... (a couple of hours solid WILDing always does this for moi
> >> anyway, so maybe it's the same from prolonged dilds too...)
> >
> > realizing the amount of power that is at your fingertips in a
> > lucid dream is unbelievable. it real is available.
>
> ### - power over one's own imagination & its creations while dreaming
> perhaps, but with the added possibility of also powerfully affecting one's
> waking awareness too in that, for a little while afterwards at least,
> one's more usual perception of the waking world is noticeably
> different/altered (i described this altered awareness to be akin to having
> been away from home for a few weeks, returning home, and noticing how
> everything persistently looks a little different for a few days until you
> at last feel like you're completely back home again...)

For the first 5 years or so, LD felt a bit like that to me too.
But that feeling was most likely related to my own beliefs about it.
After 10 or 15 more years of doing LD, it honestly no longer seemed
to really make that much difference to my waking state.

> >> ### - to be/feel ill like that, is to actually be in a slightly altered
> >> state of awareness anyway before ya even begin, and perhaps even helps
> >> to
> >> explain your facility for many such lucid dreams last night
> >
> > Perhaps Dr. Wild, you may be correcto.

I'd say it was something of a fluke. Over the years, I've seldom
done LD while sick - maybe only a couple of times in over 30 years.
To me, that makes sense, because when you're sick you have low energy
and so you are not at your max in terms of self-reflection or
awareness.

> ### - that awareness CAN be different is a given/no-brainer, and actually
> involves quite a large spectrum/range too... being ill definitely
> impinging on one more normal awareness, only usually people feel too ill
> (out of sorts/uncomfortable in themselves at the time) to be bothered to
> experiment with it any, one mainly craving to just feel normal/well
> again... the trick there (with altered awareness brought about by illness
> i mean) is to not focus on the suffering self at all, and to attempt to
> look beyond it (and yourself feeling unwell) in order to then catch a
> glimpse of the world looking/being different for a little while (we
> usually do notice things looking different from normal when ill, but put
> this all down to not being very well and discard it altogether rather than
> examining it further + feel too ill to be bothered with anything... the
> more ill you are being the harder it is to look beyond it, but light colds
> and such like always afford an opportunity to see/look at the world with
> slightly different eyes for a little while...) shades of "heightened
> awareness" perhaps?

I agree that being sick lets you see with 'slightly different eyes'.
The tradeoff is that you have far less energy (because your
body is using lots of your energy to fight off an invader).

https://www.avogel.co.uk/health/immune-system/flu/symptoms/fatigue/

> >> ### - appears you asked and received/gave to yourself just what you
> >> needed
> >> to be/feel well?
> >
> > well i'm not completely well but i am definitely on my way. One more
> > good
> > night of sleep and i might just wake up tomorrow feeling good again.
> > I don't like being sick, i'm not a good "patient".
>
> ### - no one is hehehe... but if ya has a plan to 'use' (or try to use)
> the situation the next time it occurs instead of just feeling like shit
> and hating it, it then becomes possible to be a slightly better patient,
> one who's deliberately laying in-wait for it to come around and then
> exploiting the novel situation instead of merely suffering from it and
> complaining hahaha ;)
>
>
>
> >
> >> now this is gonna sound a bit nuts (heh) so it's a good job jeremy ain't
> >> around to flip-out on me over it hah... and that is; that i've noticed
> >> 'some' head colds can defo be the direct result of malicious intent on
> >> some bastard's part (they can send a damaging vibe that makes ya ill to
> >> varying degrees; strange head colds being a common one of 'em, hence
> >> maybe
> >> your dream of peeps getting hurt and your subsequent refusal to let it
> >> happen? ya kicked the snot outta him/them and even bit the bastard too
> >> lol... been upsetting/annoying peeps again while driving have ya's? gots
> >> to watch that ya know...)

So that's a "magical belief" to comfort paranoids when they get sick
I guess? Fortunately, there's no evidence that really happens. :)
That never stopped you from believing something though, did it?

> > there is kind of epidemic here in USA, particularly california with
> > the flu or colds. Has killed a few people i hear.
>
> ### - here too apparently, came from japan or something this time but more
> usually from china
>
> the kinda head-colds am referring to being more along the lines of just
> one person having it for no good reason seemingly, obviously there's a
> marked difference between the contagious kind and someone getting one
> quite outta the blue...

Like you would know how to tell the difference.

> >> ### - full of excuses & rationalisations except for the right one?

How hilarious for YOU to say that.

Actually your first statement: "with lucidity it's all or nothing",
contradicts your second statement: "you either have awareness OR you're

still a little asleep".

First off, bullshit. You've never been awake, self-aware,
and yet also at the same time a bit groggy?

Secondly, if he realized he was dreaming at all then he was
at least partially lucid, i.e. partially mentally awake.

I say there are definitely 'degrees of lucidity'. Chris often gives
us good examples of LD where he's really only about 'half lucid'.
He knows he's dreaming, but still responds to a dream scene as
if it's somehow real and occasionally gets caught up in it.

You can realize you're dreaming and still proceed to treat the dream
as if it is real in some way. Most LDers do that occasionally.

Also, sometimes one can become confused as to whether one is
dreaming or awake. That too I consider "partial lucidity".
You gave examples of it yourself just today when you talked
about how confusing it can be to "wake up" in your "real bed".

This is actually WHY the initiation method doesn't matter as much as
the degree to which one becomes and stays mentally awake in the dream,
which isn't exactly quantifiable except subjectively (perhaps one day
in a sleep lab it can be more objectively quantifiable somehow).

What I found, personally and subjectively, after hundreds of LDs,
is that when I feel fully mentally awake, I almost always know
for sure whether I'm dreaming or am awake in the real world.

However, I found an exception to that rule, which can happen
when I have a false awakening in a copy of my real-time
real-world home. Sometimes when that happens I subjectively
believe I am mentally awake (like... really awake), when truly
I'm still dreaming and it just has not yet become apparent.

How can I know, if the world I'm perceiving looks and feels exactly
like it really would look and feel if I had really woken up?
I've done that a lot.

Am I saying then that dreams and reality may be the same thing?
NO. I am definitely not saying that. :) I'm saying that because
the same amazing brain creates both, sometimes it can be hard
to tell the difference, at least for awhile.

Yes, it is something of an advantage to initiate dreaming from
a full waking state - and yet truly, most people don't really do that
even with WILD, since they use deep relaxation techniques and focus
on hypnagogic states on the borderline of sleep to initiate WILD.

When you slip into a dream state using WILD, you are doing it
right on the borderline of Sleep Stage 1. That should not be
considered "fully mentally awake".

Even MORE important than the state you are in while initiating
LD is... how mentally awake can you become while inside a dream?
And how long can you remain fully mentally awake while there?
Those are the issues, independent of initiation method.

The one thing I know that has been found about WILDs in research
is that people more often believe themselves to be having OOBs
in WILD. And all that means to me is that people are just as
prone to mental delusions in WILD as they are in DILD. :)

What I found to be the BEST way to become and remain fully awake
inside LD is: while awake, decide to perform some specific activity
when you go lucid, and then continually perform it inside a dream.
That actually requires remaining fully mentally awake just in order
to keep doing it. So... the two best methods I know are:

1) continuously perform some activity pre-determined in waking
that requires you to periodically double-check your lucidity,
such as every minute or so stopping and raising up your own hands
and looking at them (for full technique see Journey to Ixtlan).
It doesn't have to be looking at your hands. You could shout
"I'm a fully lucid asshole!" every one minute or so. In fact,
this is the exact method I would recommend for Slider.

Ironically, I always preferred looking at my hands for the same
reason 'don Juan' suggested: they're almost always readily available.
Also, it's easy to place your hands in your line of sight, and
to do so is minimally disruptive in most dream scenes.

It's actually an excellent method for *maintaining* full lucidity.

I have successfully used this method in LD myself well over 100 times.
I've never heard another person claim they have done this.

2) perform some pre-determined dream experiment, such as to locate a
mirror and repeatedly check to see what you look like in that mirror.
Or perhaps if you dream inside your own house all the time (as I did)
you could decide in waking that the next time you go lucid in your
own house, you will take an ink pen and draw a design on your wall,
to see if you can affect the real wall (which I guarantee will fail). :)

But again, it doesn't matter much what the experiment is. The important
thing is that to precisely carry out a pre-determined dream experiment
REQUIRES staying fully mentally awake inside the dream until you have
successfully intentionally carried out the pre-determined acts.

Both of those methods force you to remain fully awake inside a dream.
If you don't stay fully awake in the dream, you can't even do them.

However, I'd also say that AFTER you've performed specific acts like
this many, many times inside lucid dreaming, THEN you don't have
to keep doing them in order to maintain full awareness inside LD.
After you have done precise things like these say 50 times (or more),
then you can do pretty much anything you like inside LD and will
still usually maintain full lucidity (since it's like anything else,
once you become practiced, you can keep doing it with greater ease).

> > It's the available
> > memory
> > or energy is present so you grab that sucker and run like a bastard.
>
> ### - well, with WILDs, one arguably isn't even actually asleep heh...

Also, arguably, with WILD, initially one isn't "fully awake" either.
Most people use deep relaxation methods and hypnagogia to initiate
and are right on the borderline of sleep stage 1 when they enter LD.
And after all, they ARE still entering a dream of some kind,
albeit lucidly.

In fact, a large percentage of the time people attempting WILD
fail and do enter sleep instead of a lucid dream state, and
people entering dreaming with WILD sometimes lose lucidity.

> so usually lucidity is as-full and as-complete as when waking

This just one of the many places where you show your bias.
Go back and read the accounts of people on your own board WILDing
and then try to tell me they always maintain full waking awareness.
I can see for myself by their own accounts just how far that is
from being the truth.

Again, what matters is to *maintain* full waking awareness inside
the dream state, and much of the time I don't see WILDers doing that.
Many of them fail at it, just as DILDers do.

>, dilds usually
> varying quite considerably from dream to dream as standard, whereas with
> WILDs it's always full as you go into the dream state with exactly the
> same awareness you lay down to dream with! (no room for error see?)

As I pointed out, that's somewhat untrue. Also, what IS different in
DILD is that the dreaming scene itself is much more often something truly
vividly weird and wonderful. This does not necessarily have to lead a
person into being "less awake". What I found is that I was capable of
continually practicing a pre-determined sequence of actions inside
such weird dreams, just as I could inside more mundane dreaming scenes.

The content of the dreaming scenes usually doesn't matter that much.
Although sometimes it does, if you happen to be in a fantastic scene
that truly induces a slack-jawed state of wonder. Yet usually, when
that happens while lucid, it makes you feel MORE awake, not less. :)

Indeed, I am tempted to argue that sometimes the very strangeness of
DILD dreaming scenes can SHOCK a dreamer who has already become lucid
into feeling MORE awake (since it's even more obvious they're dreaming,
because the dreaming scene is so marvelous).

> with dilds, you're totally depending on 'opportunity' alone (pure chance!)
> to supply the lucid dream, whereas with WILDs you only ever dream by
> choice alone!

That's only true if you're good enough at WILD to do it every time
you try. Most people aren't. In fact, most people I've seen
struggle hard to successfully do WILD even as many as 50 times.

I've done DILD at least 400-500 times in my life. And I've explained
that there IS a general way of doing DILD "by choice", which is:
intend it. I adopted the intent to become aware in dreaming
and subsequently succeeded at DILD hundreds of times. It's just a
different method of "choosing" to do something. And notice, when
I lost interest in LD, then I stopped doing it nearly as often.

LD still 'happens' occasionally, but not anywhere near as often
as it happened back when I was intending to do it and cared about it.
That is proof that it's not 'opportunity alone', it also depends
upon interest and intent (which is itself a form of choice).

Such intent must operate somehow at an unconscious level
to suddenly 'activate' one's awareness while inside a dream.
All I can say is that to some extent it definitely works.

If you want more evidence, I can add that in my entire life prior
to beginning to intend dreaming, I had only by "opportunity" done
rudimentary lucid dreaming a total of 3 or 4 times. Whereas AFTER
I began to intend it, at my peak I did it around 35-40 times a year.

Having the intent to do dreaming clearly made a difference.

> (thus, imho, half-WILDs don't really count for anything as
> they're not deliberately initiated, but are kinda inadvertently stumbled
> into, and as such are often mistakenly considered to just be rather vivid
> dilds resulting from no known cause...)

You just sort of half know what you're talking about. :)

> thus the only way to have total control over the dream state (and of
> oneself being in it) is via full WILDing + the distinct realisation that
> you've just quite deliberately + in full conscious waking awareness of
> doing so: PUT yourself there!

I know that that is not "the only way" to have full awareness
in the dream state. :) The other way is: wake up and then GET there!

> "epic" doesn't even begin to describe the resulting state of ultra-lucid
> awareness heh, nor does it describe the acute volition one experiences in
> the dream state under such circumstances!

Yeah, the epic nature of... "hardly anything happening in them...
more like wandering around on an empty set". Oh so inspiring. :)

> peeps really haven't cottened to it yet, but, because of their nature,
> WILDs are set to eventually displace dilds altogether as the method of
> choice when it comes to lucid dreaming...

That's fine, but it won't matter much if it does become the primary way.
Awareness is awareness. Being awake is being awake. Dreaming is dreaming.
And being awake inside a dream is being awake inside a dream.

Unless you're only half awake inside a dream. :)
And I know that doesn't apply to most of the LD I did.
Most of the time I felt as self-aware there as my waking self.

> not yet as there's still quite a lot of disinformation about WILDs &
> WILDing to be overcome, dilds still rule, but soon when peeps realise the
> control WILDs afford compared to dilds...
>
> WILDs Vs. DILDs! an awareness war?

There'a no need for a 'war'. Why? They're just two ways of
reaching the same place - a place which is ultimately
"an empty set" anyway.

> the battle for which has hardly even been enjoined yet heh ;)
>
> (slider humming: "it's only just begun...")
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__VQX2Xn7tI
>
> (assuming we don't blow our silly selves up in the meantime that is huh...)

> ### - was thinking of my old cat who was outside wanting in;

and was just laying in my bed thinking about all this + thinking of
getting up to go let the fucker in, and was just about to do so
when i suddenly realised i was in fact dreaming the whole thing
and that the cat's been dead for 20+ years?? seemed so like my
real bed i was baffled for several moments...

If you went lucid at that point, that was a DILD, not a WILD.

>have had quite a few of these dreams of laying in my real bed and just
waking up from a dream that then turns out to be a dream, or in another
bed that's not where i actually am but that then turns into my real bed at
home as i wake up for real... it's strange to be dreaming of waking up in
bed after having a dream only to find i was only dreaming of being in bed
as i then wake up for real in my own bed??

Yeah, I've done stuff like that like 20 times at least.
Been lucid after waking up in some other bed in some 'dream house'.
And then stayed lucid after waking up again in a dreamed copy of
my real bed.

What's even stranger is to suddenly wake up and yet you're NOT in a bed
at all. Instead, maybe you woke up on someone's front lawn somewhere.
Just bang, all of a sudden you "woke up" on some stranger's lawn.
And immediately go lucid of course.

Or, bang, you wake up on a concrete median in the middle of a
heavily trafficked street with cars whizzing by. :) I've dreamed
lots of stuff like that. It started happening when I began
using "waking up" as a *method* of changing dreaming scenes.

To use this method you "go to sleep" wherever you are in a lucid dream,
and then dream that you "wake up" in a completely different dream
scene. Then you remain lucid in that new dream scene.

Truth is, I didn't necessarily always have to "go to sleep".
I could just be walking along in some lucid dreaming scene
and bang, I'd "wake up" in some bed somewhere.

The challenge came in when I'd "wake up" in what appeared
to be the actual room in which I went to sleep for real.
At least half the time that would fool me.

What's even quite a bit stranger is to wake up in your own real bed,
and get up out of your real bed, and maybe walk out of your bedroom
and then down the stairs and walk through your real living room on
into your real kitchen and maybe start to get your real teapot to
fill it with water and put it on the stove, in fact feeling like
you just normally woke up and came downstairs and are preparing to
make yourself a cuppa, but then... BANG suddenly you wake up again
in your real bed. SHIT! At that point you have to wonder... am I
*really awake* this time?? And it takes awhile to become fully
certain that you even are. Now that's a strange feeling. :)

But what was stranger still was to wake up in my own real bed
and walk around all through my own real house, the entire time
KNOWING it was a lucid dream, although everything in my house
looked and felt exactly like my real house and there was no
tip-off of any kind that I was dreaming. But somehow I knew...

What made the difference between the times when I knew I was dreaming
in an exact copy of my real house, and the times when I did not know
and thought I was actually in my real house until suddenly waking up?
I can't say. It is somewhat mysterious.

That is what I would call a mystery of awareness.
Sometimes I was so 'aware' that I didn't need any time
at all to figure out I was dreaming. I would "get up out
of bed" and just immediately KNOW, although there was no
visible clue. Sometimes I wasn't aware and would get SHOCKED
when I found out.

When I first started doing this in the mid-1980's I would almost
always CHECK to see if it was a dream house or a real house by trying
to turn on the lights. For years, I could never turn on the lights if
I was dreaming. (By the way, notice that this also became a dream
experiment I decided to perform while awake, after the first time
it happened. The first time I didn't plan to do it, it just happened).
But sometimes I'd just get up out of bed just believing I was normally
awake and wouldn't even think to test the lights, and yet at some point... BANG, I'd "wake up" back in my bed again. Then I'd have to DO the test
to determine if I was dreaming or awake. Or BANG, I'd wake up sitting in someone else's front lawn, and then know for sure I was dreaming. :)

***

Below is linked a video of 'scenes' I was in earlier this month
while wide awake. My partner was wide awake there with me.
Other people were there wide awake too. We all saw and felt it.
It wasn't 'an empty set'. These places were amazing and awesome.
The best part is that any of us can go back and see them again.
Because they're *real*. Not only that, but we explored these
real places in our *real* bodies while sharing similar perceptions
together in real-time. :)

https://youtu.be/a0L6hFvoMIw

By now, you probably don't even hear the word "real" when I say it.
But the real world is something to be *deeply appreciated* and
*deeply experienced*. To explore the real world in full waking
awareness imparts a sense of awe that no dream scene can approach.
Because deep down we all know dreams are just dreams.

Here's the thing about full awareness in a dream. In a way, the only
real thing there to marvel at is the awareness itself, or perhaps
also the very capacity to dream. But we have that same awareness
every single day in the real world.

Anyone can dream almost anything. Instantly manufacture virtual 'worlds'.
But it took billions of years to really create all this. It took
billions of years to create the capacity for any creature to dream.

You can't dream a real living body.
It's a real living body that can dream.

As that great old Dead song 'Two Djinn' says:

"Dreams are lies.
It's the dreaming that's real."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1BTAxshaLQ

Actually, though, not all dreams are just 'lies'.
Strangely, the dreams that most often tell some profound truth
are ordinary, unconscious dreams - not lucid ones.

That makes sense too, since what makes such dreams profound is that
they arise from aspects of us that were partially unconscious.
Consciousness gets to watch the show but doesn't hold the baton.
I think that's why for thousands of years people wanted to believe
ordinary dreams could be 'divine messages'. Now tell me and...
be honest, have any of your WILDs ever felt like "divine messages"?
Don't even bother answering; the answer is: no.

Such feelings and experiences are in the province of the unconscious.
As even the deluded Jung knew.

I even must admit, IF there is anything 'divine' about us, it lies
with our totality (everything we are, including our unconscious),
not only in our consciousness or self-awareness or dreams.

But I prefer to think that nothing is "divine". It all just... IS.

I suspect that lucid dreaming ultimately is the "empty set" of
excessive human self-reflection - a self-reflection now extending
even into what for millions of years was naturally the domain of
the unconscious.

Dreaming still is in the domain of the unconscious in other mammals,
like cats and dogs. The ancestors of our cats evolved over 20 million
years ago and presumably being mammals their ancestors could dream.
Hopefully, we won't make dreaming into so much of 'a playground'
that we lose sight of all of its other myriad natural functions.

My cat shares the real world with me in intricate ways.
He also has his own ephemeral dreams I know little of.
Dreaming is a natural part of the totality of my cat,
but it's very far from the be-all and end-all of his life.
He is beautiful, and yet almost certainly his dreaming
is not self-aware. It's performing largely the same functions
it's performed for the last 20 million years, whatever they are.

At the same time, in terms of his 'presence in the real world'
and awareness thereof, my cat often seems more like a 'Zen Master'
than any human ever does. :)

Since it is "the dreaming" that is real, that makes LD cool too
and yet it is only one aspect of living - not the be-all and end-all.

If you don't already realize that, you'll probably figure it out
within another 10 years or so - especially if you continue
focusing so heavily on WILD. :)


Chris:

>well i won some and lost some.

Me, I can take about 30 minutes of all those half-drunken people,
those bells dinging, and all that smoke everywhere. Then I would
prefer to be elsewhere. :)

.

[shitholio]

> Me, I can take about 30 minutes of all those half-drunken people,
> those bells dinging, and all that smoke everywhere. Then I would
> prefer to be elsewhere. :)

that's why i like to sit near the front door on those open door
joints. at least the air flows in constantly to allow you clean
air. smoke sucks bad, i don't like it. in fact i want to take
those ciggs and put them out on their knee caps.

[Jeremy H. Denisovan]

Before leaving the topic of dreaming again,
I realize there's one more important thing I could add.

It has to do with the actual nature of "awareness"
within lucid dreaming. I have said many times that
when I'm fully lucid inside a dream my self-awareness
feels basically the same as that of my waking self.

That's true, but not the entire truth. Something needs
to be added. When I would go lucid in dreaming there was,
especially in the beginning, also an element of extreme
excitement, an intensity, a feeling of being alertly engaged
in whatever scene was unfolding around me.

Lucid dreaming came with a sense of "what I am now doing is
incredible", so I must carefully pay attention to everything.
Keeping that in mind and revisiting my original statement,
my awareness when fully lucid in dreaming was usually more like
that of my waking self when intensely excited and deeply engaged.

My sense of self-awareness is lucid dreaming has most
often been more like my consciousness when I'm walking
around in a place like THIS:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c5rdiszai1r2j2l/This.jpg?dl=0

There was often a feeling like I might need to pinch myself once
in a while to make sure I am not dreaming (which corresponds to
the sense while inside a dream of continually monitoring the
awareness that I AM cognizant of dreaming). It feels especially
strong when I come to some amazing place I do not know for the
very first time (it was the first time I'd been to the place
linked above), because then I have have to continually decide
exactly where I want to go amongst unfamiliar surroundings.
I have choices to make, and must stay alert to make them.

(I don't always make all the best choices. I discover this
sometimes after the fact by seeing photos of different areas
I neglected to explore while in a given location, and sometimes
I have to go back to the same general area again to cover
phenomena I missed before. But I always do the best I can to
make the best choices in the moment. And every time you go
back to a real place in the real world, while some things stay
the same, other things always change...)

At a minimum, in lucid dreaming, there was usually a strong
sense that I was doing something... unusual, and to some extent
that feeling remained even after doing LD hundreds of times,
because... that's really not all that many times compared to
how many times I've been fully awake in the waking world
(many thousands of times for 16 hours or more at a time).

Another factor is... when I first learned lucid dreaming,
I actually believed I was following the instructions of a
"man of power", who was teaching me the steps for
acquiring "power", and in the beginning I was following
his instructions as closely as possible. This imparted a
sense of mystery and excitement to lucid dreaming that
very well may have been above and beyond anything
the activity really warrants. It put me in hyper-vigilance.
So to say that I was merely in a heightened state of my
ordinary waking consciousness doesn't really do it justice.
Most of the time, in my earliest days of lucid dreaming
I was in a state of complete wide-eyed wonder, watching
everything around me like a hawk at all times, while at
the same time being careful to continually perform according
to the instructions I received.

I was on my toes to the extreme most of the time. So the feelings
often went well beyond those inherent in ordinary waking awareness.
Especially when you throw in that I WAS encountering some
pretty amazing dreaming scenes on a regular basis, and was
often intentionally doing things in them that are impossible in the
real world. The first few times I intentionally took off and flew
like Neo in the Matrix felt just as amazing and fun as the movie
makes it look. And the fact that you just look like some skinny,
bald-headed intellectual in the real world only makes it better,
because you realize no one will ever suspect that you are Neo.
Being fully aware that you are dreaming is one thing, but while
doing so to intentionally fly to Mars and fling yourself into a
volcano far larger than any on earth just for the sheer fun is another.
I regularly engaged in activities in dreaming such as diving off of
200 foot waterfalls. Many things I wouldn't and/or couldn't do in real life.
The sense of self-awareness I had while doing these things wasn't
quite like my daily sense of self-awareness. Similar, yet... different,
because many of things I was doing CAN'T be done in the daily world.

Doing such things in full awareness in dreaming regularly imparts
a feeling of genuine awe. I experience similar feelings in real life
when I am in places like the one I linked above. So... much of the
time in dreaming, the 'awareness of daily world' which was always
simultaneously present was also usually ramped up some by the
excitement and the novelty available in dreaming, and that's a
more accurate description of what my "awareness" is like within
lucid dreaming.

Unfortunately, a lot of people - people who haven't ever done
lucid dreaming - do not really get the difference between having
ordinary dreams that are fantastic and have lucid dreams that
are fantastic. And it is actually quite difficult to explain.
They seldom get that there's a HUGE difference between having an
ordinary dream that you're flying, and... while in a state of full
lucidity to DECIDE you are going to take off into the sky and
fly away like Superman, and then... intentionally, with
full volition to actively DO THAT. Those two things sound highly
similar, and yet in terms of experience they are totally different.
Completely different.

It is very difficult to explain the psychological import of acting
inside a dream with "awareness" and "volition" to people who
have not experienced lucid dreaming. However hard they try
to conceptually understand it, until they experience it and
perhaps even become somewhat good at it, they just will not
and cannot really fully get it.

Similarly, it is almost impossible to convey what it is like,
while dreaming with "awareness" and "volition", to at the same
time believe you are in the process of learning real "sorcery".
How weird that can get is virtually impossible to make other
people understand. I find that however carefully I explain it,
most simply cannot conceive of how deep that trip can go,
and how hard it is to come back and live in the real world
after taking such a trip. :)

Another way of saying that is: most people have no idea at all
how deep and far it's possible to take one's own DELUSIONS
in worlds of lucid dreaming, where one is limited only by one's
own imagination. Frankly, the scenes they created on Star Trek's
holodeck were usually somewhat unimaginative by comparison.

And anyone who just read all that who has NOT actually done lucid
dreaming many times themselves really still has no true concept
of what I just said. :) Sorry. You just don't.

The potential dangers psychological of lucid dreaming are just
as great, or possibly for many even greater, than its potential
benefits, in my opinion.

Another factor is that I didn't learn to do lucid dreaming until I
was an adult 28-29 years old. If I'd learned to do it when I was 10,
it might have seemed like something more normal to do.
But learning to do it only in adulthood, and in the context of
something like "sorcery" to boot gave it a sense of the unbelievable,
a feeling like WOW, this is beyond incredible. That feeling gradually
wore off over the decades, and yet even now, even though I know
better, a tiny bit of that feeling still remains every time I go lucid
in dreaming.

So why don't I still like doing it if it was so intense? Well, first off,
it wasn't ALL so intense; those are like... a few of the highlights.

Second, I did do this stuff like... hundreds of times before starting
to become... a little tired of it.

Third, dreaming was indeed somewhat tainted when I discovered
that the person who had taught me how to do it was to a large extent
simply a clever con artist.

And of course, the kicker: it just isn't real. It's like going to the movies.
I don't want to go see Star Wars every day. Once every few years
is plenty. Or like going into the Star Trek holodeck. Sure, it can be
programmed to simulate thousands of fantastic events, or... you can
just walk in there and see the bare walls before any program is run.

But you can't spend your whole life in the holodeck, because...
sticking with the Star Trek analogy, there's still a fucking REAL
universe out there to explore and THAT needs to be your focus
most of the time.

There are no consequences in dreaming. If you "die" you can just
wake up with another life, just like in a video game. The flip side is:
nothing you do in dreaming is OF CONSEQUENCE in reality.
You can be lord of time and space in lucid dreaming, but
when you wake up you're still a poor schmuck who barely
makes a living. In dreaming, nothing is real.

In the end that's the overriding factor, just as in Star Trek.
There's a real world out there to be explored, so large you are
lucky to see a fraction of it in your short life, and that needs
to be your focus, most of the time.

[slider]

guess who wrote...

> In dreaming, nothing is real.

### - the dream 'itself' (and/or its content) may or may not be real to
varying degrees, but that's another - side-issue - altogether...

what IS real, however, is the PERSON them self who's projecting their
awareness into another state of awareness/reality either wittingly or
unwittingly, 'regardless' of what they do or don't do (with it) while
they're there...

and that's the bit you're not taking into consideration/ignoring...

it's not 'about' the dream, it's about the dreamer!

dilds make it all about the dream! WILDs make it all about the dreamer...

big difference :)

[slider]

oh nooo, the bitch is back, bitchin' as usual...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upR7GQ5ToCs

:)

> On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 11:18:41 PM UTC-8, slider wrote:
>> >> ### - still WILDing in yer then sleep eh? (WILDing with a lower case
>> w
>> >> heh)
>> >
>> > honestly you wish you can have a lucid dream like this.
>> > this fucker was epic.
>>
>> ### - WILDs are epic, can't describe them any other way
>
> You describe some of yours just below, and... not epic.

### - being an old dild-o of old, who has nothing to compare/contrast it
too, you merely confuse 'content' with degrees of lucidity (you do this
several times below imagining you're making good points, when all you're
'really' doing is revealing/confirming your 'lack' of experience with
WILDs)

>
>
>> >> ### - not lucid enough though to realise the futility of bashing-up
>> your
>> >> dream characters heh ;)
>> >
>> > well i didn't go completely crazy, it started me going so it was ok.
>>
>> ### - was only kidding ya heh... am personally rather a snob in my
>> dreams
>> haha, have dispassionately examined quite a few DC's by now (even
>> slapped
>> a few of 'em around lol to see what they're made of) and they don't fool
>> me one bit anymore hah!
>>
>> if i ever found myself in a similar situation (something i doubt will
>> ever
>> happen as
>
> Here:
>> all my lucid dreams these days are actually quite orderly with
>> hardly anything happening in them like fights and rows etc, but is more
>> like wandering around on an empty set...)
>
> Yeah, so how is that so very interesting or exciting?

### - yes "here" :) - again confusing content with degrees of ultra
lucidity, thus again revealing your express 'lack' of experience in this
direction (you always pick up on the specific ref. points in error and end
up talking nonsense, or worse; putting words into my mouth that i didn't
either say or intend) :)

so what do i mean then by interesting or exciting if it doesn't refer to
some kinda dazzling content? well, put it this way; do 'you' find weird
shit going on when you're fully awake at home? do object fly up in the air
all by themselves and/or morph spontaneously into other things right in
front of your eyes? no of course they don't, people may do weird things
but objects and scenes do not and are stable to a point... what's
*interesting* is the ultra high degree of lucidity that's a standard +
marked feature of WILDs, scenery so real-seeming & convincing that many
times i've had to question whether am still actually dreaming or not, so
'concretely' real and unchanging that it's hard to believe you're still
only dreaming, and that's... intriguing!

fascinating actually! it's like being in another real world! a world in
which you yourself are also quite different! with access to areas of
awareness in oneself not normally available/accessible!

>
> Like 15 years ago or so... half of my lucid dreaming experiences started
> becoming more like that, where very often I'd be wandering around all
> "hyper-aware" in some empty house or building somewhere, or just walking
> around in the dark in my own house as if I'd just gotten up out of bed.
> That's one reason I lost interest. How many times does one really need
> to do things like that?

### - again, it's not the 'content' (heh) it's how different 'oneself' is
under such circumstances of altered awareness! how 'available' (to
oneself) that unusual awareness suddenly is! the 'new' areas of awareness
one can then extend oneself into under such circumstances! that instead of
everything being a mish-mash of jumbled content (as is virtually always
the case with dilds) that part is quiescent and thus not competing/vying
for one's attention! the 'content' is/thus becomes secondary to oneself
even being in such a situation! it's the *situation* that's interesting!
the novel 'place' in awareness one has somehow extended oneself (and one's
awareness) into!

'your' problem... is that you initially investigated LDing with a very
heavy + set agenda! you went into it all with a whole heap of prior
expectations! (quite unrealistic expectations as it all turned out...) and
when those phony expectations didn't materialise, you lost all interest!
effectively throwing the baby out with the proverbial bathwater in the
process!

well, i DIDN'T go into lucid dreaming with ANY expectations whatsoever!
for sure i initially tested out a few things i'd *heard* (and read) about,
but that was it! consequently, the whole thing (for me) is about being
ABLE to BE able to project my full waking awareness into a completely
altered state of awareness altogether, no drugs, agents, aids, gizmo's or
anything whatsoever involved!

and... apparently... 'anyone & everyone' is also able to do it too!

it's BETTER than drugs! :)

AND it doesn't cost fuck-all either! heh! :)

question: why do peeps even LIKE drugs and getting-off their faces and
stuff? what have they been getting-out of doing things like that if not
the novelty of experiencing partial altered states of awareness and also,
perhaps more importantly; the altered state of 'themselves' under such
conditions? (their own altered + novel state of awareness that they
experience first-hand while under the chemical influence of such things, i
mean... they're escaping from what exactly?)

that in THAT sense; drugs have provided only 'glimpses' and/or 'clues'
(often grotesquely distorted by the substances themselves...) of something
(about themselves) that people quite like! and often find 'inspiring' for
example? and as an express means of reaching some rather indefinable part
of themselves that they find intriguing! areas then, of our own awareness,
that under normal conditions we don't generally have access to! little
knowing/realising that we don't even NEED such substances to access those
very same areas and more!

that in THAT sense (and context) WILDs provides direct access to those
very same altered states of awareness but in a completely 'volitional'
manner & way! and actually also in a far more 'complete' way as well! the
result of 'drugs' being more like/equating-with being only 'semi-lucid' as
opposed to being fully lucid!

and WILDs... genuinely OPENS that door! ;)

what is *interesting* (about WILDs) is the resulting ACCESS into OTHER
areas of our OWN awareness like never before! and with no 'dependence'
upon anything except oneself involved!

iow: it ISN'T just about LDing! (which apparently is only one option among
many when WILDing) but involves other as yet unexplored/unknown areas of
awareness too!

and THAT'S interesting! :)

YOUR problem is: you're still STUCK on lucid dreaming itself and haven't
moved on from that!

:)

### - wbtb dreams are usually WILDs, albeit unwitting ones... thus more
usually confused with having just been rather vivid/unusual dilds etc...
an 'unwitting/unrealised' WILD not really counting for much because it
*wasn't* deliberately initiated, thus not 'fully' lucid; a confusion +
seeming contradiction that completely disappears when 'deliberately'
initiated because you 'know' you've just put yourself there! quite
deliberately! and that changes everything!

### - you've got to (yet to) realise that dilds are actually unwitting
WILDs heh, they are WILDs ostensibly performed unwittingly: in our sleep!
they are not 'deliberately' initiated directly but indirectly! in them,
one rises to waking awareness from a state of unconsciousness to varying
degrees! FULL lucidity under the conditions of dilding is actually quite
rare and unusual! it's certainly not common! (else chris would report it
all the time instead of only occasionally?) whereas with WILDs it IS
common! actually standard! and while it may indeed BE possible for an
average person to achieve FULL lucidity under the conditions of dilding;
it would likely take them YEARS to be able to do so!

in ref. to the above-above: do a 4 or 5-hour WILDing session and see for
'yourself' just how much it affects waking awareness afterwards...

but then you claim that you can't, so you keep banging-on about dilds
because it's impossible for you to know what am actually expressly talking
out in ref. TO WILDs... dilds & WILDS are NOT the same! and you'd KNOW
that yourself if you'd done much WILDing! (30+ year old memories of what
MIGHT have been WILDs at the time simply doesn't count! as indeed nor do
unwitting WILDs count either if not deliberately initiated! there's no
comparison otherwise...

>
>
>> >> ### - to be/feel ill like that, is to actually be in a slightly
>> altered
>> >> state of awareness anyway before ya even begin, and perhaps even
>> helps
>> >> to
>> >> explain your facility for many such lucid dreams last night
>> >
>> > Perhaps Dr. Wild, you may be correcto.
>
> I'd say it was something of a fluke. Over the years, I've seldom
> done LD while sick - maybe only a couple of times in over 30 years.
> To me, that makes sense, because when you're sick you have low energy
> and so you are not at your max in terms of self-reflection or
> awareness.

### - do you make this shit up as you go along or what? you're assuming
(now) that 'energy' has something to with it?? (who told you that: cc??
riiiight...)

based on what you 'think' (as opposed to actually knowing) you assume if
someone is ill that they have low energy and that would necessarily affect
their ability to LD?? bs! you don't KNOW that!

especially when i used a different context entirely to the one your now
proposing??

(i merely suggested that awareness is different/slightly altered under
conditions of being unwell, and that that may be a boon when it comes to
slipping further into the altered state we call WILD, the implication
being that under normal healthy circumstances one's awareness is perforce
perhaps more rigidly fixed (as fixed as it ever gets) and that being
unwell moves one from off of one's more normal spot than usual so to
speak, something that 'can' possibly be used as a kind of springboard into
other altered states if one was inclined to consider doing so...)

>
>
>> ### - that awareness CAN be different is a given/no-brainer, and
>> actually
>> involves quite a large spectrum/range too... being ill definitely
>> impinging on one more normal awareness, only usually people feel too ill
>> (out of sorts/uncomfortable in themselves at the time) to be bothered to
>> experiment with it any, one mainly craving to just feel normal/well
>> again... the trick there (with altered awareness brought about by
>> illness
>> i mean) is to not focus on the suffering self at all, and to attempt to
>> look beyond it (and yourself feeling unwell) in order to then catch a
>> glimpse of the world looking/being different for a little while (we
>> usually do notice things looking different from normal when ill, but put
>> this all down to not being very well and discard it altogether rather
>> than
>> examining it further + feel too ill to be bothered with anything... the
>> more ill you are being the harder it is to look beyond it, but light
>> colds
>> and such like always afford an opportunity to see/look at the world with
>> slightly different eyes for a little while...) shades of "heightened
>> awareness" perhaps?
>
> I agree that being sick lets you see with 'slightly different eyes'.
> The tradeoff is that you have far less energy (because your
> body is using lots of your energy to fight off an invader).
> https://www.avogel.co.uk/health/immune-system/flu/symptoms/fatigue/

### - that's all very rational & logical and stuff, but those "slightly
different eyes" (as you call it) is actually indicative of having already
shifted (from off of one's more usual spot etc) into a somewhat altered
state of awareness... and, if changing/shifting into an altered state of
awareness is the goal as in WILDing, then already being slightly out of it
can well be a useful leg-up in that direction...

it's got nothing to do with... energy :)

(snip the rest of all this old, rambling + by now well-chewed/repeated:
'dild-stuff')

'coz no one's gonna bother with dilds for too much longer anyway heh...

dilds have... peaked :)

[shitholio]

> it's got nothing to do with... energy :)

let's set energy aside for a moment then.
try to do anything in this world or the dream
world without memory. you can't do it. you
can't even take an order at mcdonalds without
some memory. simple huh? you'll never remember
in dreaming without memory. memory=awareness.

> (snip the rest of all this old, rambling + by now well-chewed/repeated:
> 'dild-stuff')
>
> 'coz no one's gonna bother with dilds for too much longer anyway heh...
>
> dilds have... peaked :)

how much memory you got boy?
that is the question.

[Jeremy H. Denisovan]

On Monday, January 29, 2018 at 11:37:08 PM UTC-8, slider wrote:
> guess who wrote...
>
> > In dreaming, nothing is real.
>
> ### - the dream 'itself' (and/or its content) may or may not be real to
> varying degrees, but that's another - side-issue - altogether...
>
> what IS real, however, is the PERSON them self who's projecting their
> awareness into another state of awareness/reality either wittingly or
> unwittingly, 'regardless' of what they do or don't do (with it) while
> they're there...
>
> and that's the bit you're not taking into consideration/ignoring...

That all applies to the dreamer equally in both DILD and WILD.

> it's not 'about' the dream, it's about the dreamer!
>
> dilds make it all about the dream! WILDs make it all about the dreamer...
>
> big difference :)

Fake difference. :)

[slider]

>> it's got nothing to do with... energy :)

> let's set energy aside for a moment then.

### - yes lets, seein' as old jer' seems a bit confused about all that
heh...

> try to do anything in this world or the dream
> world without memory. you can't do it.

### - know the feelin' alright alright, starts goin' all slow and shit

> you
> can't even take an order at mcdonalds without
> some memory. simple huh?

### - oh lordy, is nuttin' sacred? don't tell me *they's* online* now too??

> you'll never remember
> in dreaming without memory. memory=awareness.

### - mc-who? never even 'eard of 'em! :D

>> (snip the rest of all this old, rambling + by now well-chewed/repeated:
>> 'dild-stuff')
>>
>> 'coz no one's gonna bother with dilds for too much longer anyway heh...
>>
>> dilds have... peaked :)
>
> how much memory you got boy?
> that is the question.

### - currently 4gig according to the stats on here hah :)

but then this lappy's prolly gettin' quite old by now!

an upgrade to SSD next/at some point then... go all solid state

and then we'll be much faster than yer' average boo-boo yogi!

;)

[slider]

auntie Jeremy weasels...

> On Monday, January 29, 2018 at 11:37:08 PM UTC-8, slider wrote:
>> guess who wrote...
>>
>> > In dreaming, nothing is real.
>>
>> ### - the dream 'itself' (and/or its content) may or may not be real to
>> varying degrees, but that's another - side-issue - altogether...
>>
>> what IS real, however, is the PERSON them self who's projecting their
>> awareness into another state of awareness/reality either wittingly or
>> unwittingly, 'regardless' of what they do or don't do (with it) while
>> they're there...
>>
>> and that's the bit you're not taking into consideration/ignoring...
>
> That all applies to the dreamer equally in both DILD and WILD.

### - with the 'emphasis' on the dream when dilding + the opposite when
WILDing

yes, that's right! :)

>> it's not 'about' the dream, it's about the dreamer!
>>
>> dilds make it all about the dream! WILDs make it all about the
>> dreamer...
>>
>> big difference :)
>
> Fake difference. :)

### - like how would YOU even know?

where is YOUR personal evidence FOR that??

just ain't actually gots any have ya! no backup to speak of!

a bs-artist to the end then huh?

i.e., you're big on good evidence from everyone 'else' but not from
yourself?!

one rule for the jeremy, and a different rule for everyone else?

an avowed anti-flim-flam man that now operates by bs-ing & flim-flaming??

by literally making things up???

smacks of hypocrisy to moi all that does; 20-years of it! :)

so ya didn't come back any the more honest then huh...

no 'straighter' than ever?

just crooked through & through...

same as it ever was then! (and getting worse actually...)

can't help peeps who DON'T learn from their mistakes! (no one can!)

WONT learn? are terminally obtuse!

plus can't learn yourself, so actively hinder anyone else from learning??

that's rough! ugly even! - stagnation wins!

plus congratulations! you finally made the grade of a lying little man
with a big voice?

ya did too! :)

c'mon toto, let's go the fuck home; the wicked bitch of the north has
returned, apparently to bore the pants off everyone... again! hah! :D

same as it ever was folks!

same as it EVER was!

(i.e., get back to us when ya finally learn to WILD for real, as perhaps
then your 'opinion' on the matter will actually carry some weight instead
of ringing completely hollow like it does now... but then ya prolly
wouldn't admit it even if ya DID learn to WILD huh! worse: couldn't admit
it!)

lying little bitch! :D

[Jeremy H. Denisovan]

On Monday, January 29, 2018 at 11:57:32 PM UTC-8, slider wrote:
> oh nooo, the bitch is back, bitchin' as usual...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upR7GQ5ToCs
>
> :)
>
> > On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 11:18:41 PM UTC-8, slider wrote:
> >> >> ### - still WILDing in yer then sleep eh? (WILDing with a lower case
> >> w
> >> >> heh)
> >> >
> >> > honestly you wish you can have a lucid dream like this.
> >> > this fucker was epic.
> >>
> >> ### - WILDs are epic, can't describe them any other way
> >
> > You describe some of yours just below, and... not epic.
>
> ### - being an old dild-o of old, who has nothing to compare/contrast it
> too, you merely confuse 'content' with degrees of lucidity (you do this
> several times below imagining you're making good points, when all you're
> 'really' doing is revealing/confirming your 'lack' of experience with
> WILDs)

You don't even realize how you continually contradict yourself. :)

In your last post, you tried to argue that there aren't degrees
of lucidity, you claimed a person is either fully awake or
a little bit asleep. And that's wrong.

Now you're going to the other extreme, acting like WILD *always*
results in some sort of "super-awakeness", with nothing whatsoever
to back up that claim. And I can see that it too is wrong, which you
could see as well if you simply thought for a second about the
accounts of all these goombahs you have now doing their first WILDs.

So apart from your tears of joy over having someone to argue with
on the internet again... briefly... LOL... you're saying very little.

Ultra lucidity! Scenery so real-seeming and convincing!
Are you fucking kidding me? What a total clown act you are.
What you're describing is nothing new to me.

You never even really get what I say. Every single trait you
trot out as some imagined difference between DILD and WILD is
a thing I'd already experienced over and over 25 years ago.

> fascinating actually! it's like being in another real world! a world in
> which you yourself are also quite different! with access to areas of
> awareness in oneself not normally available/accessible!

Like I don't know that. You are incapable of hearing a word I say.
And now you're making fresh new claims since you've been pushed
to do so by having your previous positions debunked.

So now here's the new claim:
"You yourself are also quite different, with access to areas of
awareness in oneself no normally available/accessible."

Actually, that's true in certain ways and in others it isn't true.

The way in which it isn't true is that there's no "ultra lucidity" -
at least not that goes beyond being fully mentally awake, excited,
and motivated. Or, if perhaps you simply never experience such
states in waking then I feel sorry for you. Lucidity MEANS being
fully aware that one is dreaming, while in full possession of one's
waking memories. That's all it means. To have sharp and clear
self-awareness of what one is doing in dreaming while in a state of
rapt attention and while able to think similarly to when awake is...
as good as 'lucidity' gets.

If you think there's some "supernatural awareness" going beyond
that then I think you're as delusional as any Castaneda fanatic
ever was.

(There is also 'volition' similar to waking volition inside LD,
which is another issue. When I did LD I had full waking awareness
and more or less complete waking volition)

Now, the way in which what you said IS true - which we have not
talked about much before, and which you're only bringing up now
because you were badly losing the argument - is that in dreaming
one gains new 'awarenesses' of all the myriad things one can do
inside dreaming that can't be done at all in physical reality.
But that's just because it's a virtual reality where even one's
most outrageous fantasies of either thought or deed can manifest.
So yes, there are new 'awarenesses' of those aspects of dreaming.

There are different 'types' of 'volition' inside dreaming too,
which are also related to activities you can only do in dreaming,
like flying at will, for example.

I am also well aware that there are strange types of 'cognition'
in dreaming that aren't necessarily rational, once again,
because all kinds of "magical" things are possible within the
virtual reality of dreaming.

But those different 'types' of 'awareness' are not directly related
to degree of lucidity, which is what we were talking about. They are
related to activities one can do only in dreaming. And most of those
are not applicable in the real world.

> > Like 15 years ago or so... half of my lucid dreaming experiences started
> > becoming more like that, where very often I'd be wandering around all
> > "hyper-aware" in some empty house or building somewhere, or just walking
> > around in the dark in my own house as if I'd just gotten up out of bed.
> > That's one reason I lost interest. How many times does one really need
> > to do things like that?
>
> ### - again, it's not the 'content' (heh) it's how different 'oneself' is
> under such circumstances of altered awareness! how 'available' (to
> oneself) that unusual awareness suddenly is! the 'new' areas of awareness
> one can then extend oneself into under such circumstances! that instead of
> everything being a mish-mash of jumbled content (as is virtually always
> the case with dilds) that part is quiescent and thus not competing/vying
> for one's attention! the 'content' is/thus becomes secondary to oneself
> even being in such a situation! it's the *situation* that's interesting!
> the novel 'place' in awareness one has somehow extended oneself (and one's
> awareness) into!

Well, as usual I already know all about what you're talking about.
So you go do that shit another 500 times. See where it gets you.
Spend your entire fool life in the holodeck, see if I care.

The simple lack of realization on your part is that the same
degree of lucidity is quite possible in DILD. You always think
the problem is that I haven't done WILD - and yet... I have.
Not a lot, because I find it hard, but enough to know that
it isn't different from where I got to in hundreds of DILDs.

> 'your' problem... is that you initially investigated LDing with a very
> heavy + set agenda! you went into it all with a whole heap of prior
> expectations! (quite unrealistic expectations as it all turned out...) and
> when those phony expectations didn't materialise, you lost all interest!
> effectively throwing the baby out with the proverbial bathwater in the
> process!

That actually wasn't the problem. In terms of achieving the highest
possible degree of lucidity it was more of a benefit. Sure, I was
delusional about exactly WHAT I was accomplishing in dreaming, yet at
the same time, I was incredibly strongly motivated and totally serious
about always doing my best at dreaming. The people you're turning on to
WILD these days are only 'playing games' compared to what I was doing.
I was putting my real life on the line and doing my level best to be 'impeccable' in dreaming at all times for years and years. That's one
reason I KNOW with no doubt that it simply isn't possible to become
"more lucid" than I had become, whether doing DILD or WILD.

That is the baseless assertion you keep making, that just by
changing the induction method, I'll attain some new, heightened
levels of lucidity. I know that can't be true because I regularly
attained my own highest possible levels of dream lucidity ages ago.

You're right about only one thing, which is that - most of the time -
the content of lucid dreaming doesn't really matter. But that's exactly
why the vivid instability of DILDs or the relatively stable content
of WILDs does not matter (I've experienced both of those 'types' of
dream content hundreds of times and even explained WHY those 'types'
of content likely exist - i.e. they result from dreaming being
initiated within different sleep stages).

Content doesn't matter! You say it yourself. So it doesn't matter
if the content is a "sorcery" context, or a "Buddhist" context,
or an "atheist" context. Nor if the dream scenes are incredibly
stable and realistic, or if they morph around all over the place.
Content doesn't matter! Content doesn't matter for the *degree of
lucidity* either! What does matter for degree of lucidity?
Two things mainly, and I already described them in detail.
To summarize:

One: adopting techniques that *necessitate* remaining fully lucid
*continually* inside a dream scene. I used several such methods.

Two: level of motivation and seriousness. I couldn't possibly have
been more motivated, and was dead serious about always doing my
total best to maintain full awareness in dreaming.

You keep acting like you 'know' I'd obtain a higher degree
of lucidity if only I'd keep entering lucid dreams from waking.
But I KNOW that's bullshit, not only because a handful of times I
did WILD, but because 25 years ago I was regularly achieving levels
of lucidity in dreaming similar to my most hyper-vigilant and
ultra-motivated states of *waking awareness* and that was true
regardless of how stable or unstable the content of the dreaming
scenes became. I know it isn't possible for me to be "more lucid"
than I was then because I'm not even capable of being "more awake"
mentally than that in my most intense daily waking states.

It's like you're asserting I could be much more awake than
I fucking am right now! And that's just such pretentious bs. :)

You're attached to things that really don't matter, and ignore
things that do matter.

> well, i DIDN'T go into lucid dreaming with ANY expectations whatsoever!
> for sure i initially tested out a few things i'd *heard* (and read) about,
> but that was it! consequently, the whole thing (for me) is about being
> ABLE to BE able to project my full waking awareness into a completely
> altered state of awareness altogether, no drugs, agents, aids, gizmo's or
> anything whatsoever involved!

Well, that's exactly what it was about for me too. Duh.
You're not ever saying a single thing that is news to me.

> and... apparently... 'anyone & everyone' is also able to do it too!
>
> it's BETTER than drugs! :)

Oh joy, he's expanding his internet argument into drugs.

Dreaming is different than 'drugs'. I wouldn't even compare the two.
And each 'drug' is different too.

> AND it doesn't cost fuck-all either! heh! :)
>
> question: why do peeps even LIKE drugs and getting-off their faces and
> stuff? what have they been getting-out of doing things like that if not
> the novelty of experiencing partial altered states of awareness and also,
> perhaps more importantly; the altered state of 'themselves' under such
> conditions? (their own altered + novel state of awareness that they
> experience first-hand while under the chemical influence of such things, i
> mean... they're escaping from what exactly?)
>
> that in THAT sense; drugs have provided only 'glimpses' and/or 'clues'
> (often grotesquely distorted by the substances themselves...) of something
> (about themselves) that people quite like! and often find 'inspiring' for
> example? and as an express means of reaching some rather indefinable part
> of themselves that they find intriguing! areas then, of our own awareness,
> that under normal conditions we don't generally have access to! little
> knowing/realising that we don't even NEED such substances to access those
> very same areas and more!

The substances themselves are the drugs. And the states accessed on
drugs ARE different than the states accessed in dreaming because it
IS about 'the substances themselves' and how they alter neurochemistry,
and therefore alter the entire 'mode' of our perception.

Getting high really isn't all that much like lucid dreaming,
not for any of the many drugs I know. Not to me, anyway.

So yeah... you're really just... bullshitting again. :)

> that in THAT sense (and context) WILDs provides direct access to those
> very same altered states of awareness but in a completely 'volitional'
> manner & way! and actually also in a far more 'complete' way as well! the
> result of 'drugs' being more like/equating-with being only 'semi-lucid' as
> opposed to being fully lucid!

Those very same altered states of awareness! What complete bullshit!
You're like a fanatical cult leader with no cult. Confidently preaching
nonsense to anyone who will waste the time to listen. You don't even
care what kind of stupid claims come out of your mouth.

Your basic problem is that you have no genuine integrity or objectivity.
You're a fanatic who assumes anything he feels like believing is true.

> and WILDs... genuinely OPENS that door! ;)
>
> what is *interesting* (about WILDs) is the resulting ACCESS into OTHER
> areas of our OWN awareness like never before! and with no 'dependence'
> upon anything except oneself involved!
>
> iow: it ISN'T just about LDing! (which apparently is only one option among
> many when WILDing) but involves other as yet unexplored/unknown areas of
> awareness too!

So now you're breaking out your next grandiose claim:
Wake Initiated Lucid Dreaming isn't just about Lucid Dreaming!

Ha, Slider says, you refute my arguments - I'll top you by making an
even more grandiose claim! :) (And all without even bothering to describe
what he's talking about too...)

Well, as I have long known, lucid dreaming also opens as yet
unexplored potential for delusion too. And you seem to be right
in the big middle of it.

> and THAT'S interesting! :)
>
> YOUR problem is: you're still STUCK on lucid dreaming itself and haven't
> moved on from that!
>
> :)

Yeah, you're one of those assholes who just moves the goal posts
every time his arguments get refuted, so you can keep your
petty arguments going and beef up your escalating belief that
you're really some kind of special messiah or something.

But everything you have actually STATED to date that you have
done in lucid dreaming, I was already doing it too, decades ago.
And I'm no longer the one obsessed with LD (rather, you are).

I just can't wait to see your next delusional claims about what
you imagine you're doing now. That's sarcasm. I can totally wait. :)
Watch, he'll be acting like he thinks he's the fucking Buddha
before you know it. Btw, we're done again after this post, because
you're as shameless as any nut-job I ever met in Castaneda land.

This repetition adds nothing to your poorly reasoned claims.

I accomplished it decades ago. The people you have doing WILD now
are not even half as serious or determined as I was back then.

> in ref. to the above-above: do a 4 or 5-hour WILDing session and see for
> 'yourself' just how much it affects waking awareness afterwards...
>
>
> but then you claim that you can't, so you keep banging-on about dilds
> because it's impossible for you to know what am actually expressly talking
> out in ref. TO WILDs... dilds & WILDS are NOT the same! and you'd KNOW
> that yourself if you'd done much WILDing! (30+ year old memories of what
> MIGHT have been WILDs at the time simply doesn't count! as indeed nor do
> unwitting WILDs count either if not deliberately initiated! there's no
> comparison otherwise...

I can see by the irrationality and hostility you continually display
here that your "waking awareness" has not been changed one iota. :)
At least not in any positive way. And you certainly haven't
accomplished anything worth a damn in the real world either
with your alleged 'super awareness'.

4-5 hour dreaming sessions are extremely uncommon for either
DILDers or WILDers. I knew tons of dreamers, but only two other
people who could stay in dreaming for hours. Dan Lawton was one.
But guess what, he could do that with either DILD or WILD. :)
This is still another way for me to know you are bullshitting.
Lawton could stay in dreaming for hours, yet he never made any
big distinction between DILD and WILD. He could do both.

Between 30-45 minutes is about the longest I'd ever stay in LD
in one session. And even that long in LD seems like forever.
Most people do not even go that long, using WILD or DILD.
And you know that Slider, you huge bullshitter. :)

The truth is, I never thought it would change much to stay in
dreaming longer in the same session. After 15 minutes or so,
to go longer usually seemed like just doing more of the same.
And I did plenty.

I think this is merely yet another way in which you attempt to
aggrandize yourself.

> >> >> ### - to be/feel ill like that, is to actually be in a slightly
> >> altered
> >> >> state of awareness anyway before ya even begin, and perhaps even
> >> helps
> >> >> to
> >> >> explain your facility for many such lucid dreams last night
> >> >
> >> > Perhaps Dr. Wild, you may be correcto.
> >
> > I'd say it was something of a fluke. Over the years, I've seldom
> > done LD while sick - maybe only a couple of times in over 30 years.
> > To me, that makes sense, because when you're sick you have low energy
> > and so you are not at your max in terms of self-reflection or
> > awareness.
>
> ### - do you make this shit up as you go along or what? you're assuming
> (now) that 'energy' has something to with it?? (who told you that: cc??
> riiiight...

No dumb ass. Ordinary physical energy. Did you not even read the
link I posted? Yes, real human bodies actually run on real
physical energy. I don't know, maybe budding messiahs don't?

And you are clearly the one who makes shit up. All that crap
about people 'sending you a cold'... your vague claims above about
'altered states of waking awareness' somehow causing lucid dreaming.
LOL. You have zero evidence for such claims. What I said above
about energy is widely known and accepted.

> based on what you 'think' (as opposed to actually knowing) you assume if
> someone is ill that they have low energy and that would necessarily affect
> their ability to LD?? bs! you don't KNOW that!
>
> especially when i used a different context entirely to the one your now
> proposing??
>
> (i merely suggested that awareness is different/slightly altered under
> conditions of being unwell, and that that may be a boon when it comes to
> slipping further into the altered state we call WILD, the implication
> being that under normal healthy circumstances one's awareness is perforce
> perhaps more rigidly fixed (as fixed as it ever gets) and that being
> unwell moves one from off of one's more normal spot than usual so to
> speak, something that 'can' possibly be used as a kind of springboard into
> other altered states if one was inclined to consider doing so...)

Pure speculation for which there's no evidence. Your speculations
about 'awareness' and 'altered states' are much more Castaneda-like.
I was talking in the context of physical, medical reality.

You always end your bad arguments with some know-it-all assertion
that you have not really established at all. And you're supposed
to be "Mr. Awareness"? I don't think so. :)

Remaining vigilantly aware and attentive - which is needed in
lucid dreaming - requires energy like anything else humans do.
Not imaginary magical energy. Ordinary real physical energy.
Your brain uses a large percentage of your body's physical energy,
and lucid dreaming is a thing you do with your brain.
If the available energy is low because your immune system is
using lots of it, it will naturally be harder to remain aware
and attentive, in either waking or dreaming. Not to mention
that you feel like crap at the same time.

> (snip the rest of all this old, rambling + by now well-chewed/repeated:
> 'dild-stuff')
>
>
> 'coz no one's gonna bother with dilds for too much longer anyway heh...
>
> dilds have... peaked :)

As I already said in my last post... that's fine with me,
because it won't matter much one way or the other.
And you're like... headed off the rails. Good luck mofo.
You're gonna need it.

Ultra awareness my ass. You have precious little that I can see.
You can't even conceive that most of your misunderstandings are
just based in your own inability to reach full lucidity in DILD. :)

[Jeremy H. Denisovan]

You know Slider, maybe I've been approaching this whole thing wrong.

I keep defending against all your assertions, as you keep insisting
that everyone must learn to do lucid dreaming the same way YOU do.
But suppose I was to turn the tables and start insisting that you
must do dreaming the way I did? :)

Let's even assume for argument's sake that you're right about it
being easier to go lucid and stay lucid using WILD (maybe it is
for many). Well, then perhaps it should be considered an even more
difficult achievement to succeed at that same task using DILD.
Right? I mean, if it's harder to maintain full awareness
consistently in DILD (as you claim), that would only mean that to
succeed at DILD tasks would require even more skill.
More discipline. More sobriety. Yes?

Great. So here is the exercise you must successfully perform,
and it can't be done using WILD, you must do this in DILD:

"I am going to teach you right here the first step to power... :)
"I am going to teach you how to set up dreaming."

"You must start by doing something very simple...
"Tonight in your dreams you must look at your hands."

"Focus your eyes on them just like this."
(bends head forward, and stares at hands with mouth open)

"You can, of course, look at whatever you please: your toes,
or your belly, or your pecker, for that matter. I said your hands
because that was the easiest thing for me to look at."

Clarification:
Yeah, it's funny and all, but I say do not bend forward.
Instead raise your hands up so your eyes remain at the level you
were already using to view the dream scene. And no bs of looking
at your dick or your toes or anything else, because that requires
disengaging your gaze from the dream scene, and then having to look
back up again. Do everything the old man says with no deviation.
Just like I did.

"I said your hands because they'll always be there.
When they begin to change shape, you must move your sight away
from them and pick something else; and then look at your hands again."

Clarification:
You don't have to stare at your hands until they begin to
'change shape' if you don't want to. It suffices to stare at them
long enough to assure yourself that you're still fully lucid and
sober and can still clearly see your hands. You also need to remember
what you were looking at before you looked at your hands each time,
because when you look away again, each time you will look at
different objects in the dream scene than you were looking at before.

I am not going to include all of Castaneda's accounts of his
attempts, because I can tell they are to some extent bullshit
(if you care to know how I can tell that, I could explain it,
but CC himself later confessed to us that he was actually unable
to successfully perform this exercise as instructed). He eventually
had to use other methods to learn dreaming - at least, that's what
he later claimed. I'll comment on only a part of CC's remarks:

CC:
"I had no volition whatsoever over when I would give myself the
command to look at my hands, or to look at other items of the dreams.
It would just happen. At a given moment I would remember that I
had to look at my hands and then at the surroundings."

Clarification:
That part is misleading. To succeed, you have to go lucid FIRST,
and THEN consciously command yourself to raise up your hands and
look at them. If you merely have a dream of looking at your hands,
you're not really doing the exercise. To rewrite CC's comment
in the way it would need to be written by someone who succeeded:

Jeremy's rewrite:
I didn't know when I would suddenly realize I was dreaming,
but the moment after going lucid in a dream, I would intentionally
raise up my hands and stare at them for several seconds, before
turning my gaze to the dream scene and the specific items in it.

These are the main instructions to follow exactly:

"I'm going to remind you of all the dreaming techniques you must
practice...

First, you must focus your gaze on your hands as the starting point.
Then shift your gaze to other items, and look at them in brief glances.
Focus your gaze on as many things as you can. Remember that if you
only glance briefly, the images do not shift. Then go back to your hands.

Every time you look at your hands you renew the power needed for
dreaming, so in the beginning don't look at too many things.
Four items will suffice every time. Later on, you may enlarge the
scope until you can cover all you want, but as soon as the images
begin to shift and you feel you are losing control, go back to
your hands."

That's it. Repeat that sequence as often as you can before waking up
in each of the 10 sessions of dreaming.

And it's not good enough just to find your hands, you have
to do this entire procedure verbatim as it is written above.
Each time you look at your hands, look back toward the dream scene
in a different direction, and choose at least 3 or 4 different
dream scene items to carefully observe.

Now, using DILD alone, do that exact exercise 10 times
on 10 different days.

Good luck!

I don't know for sure where Carlos got this damned method.
The earliest mention I've found of it seems to indicate it originally
came from Gurdjieff. I'll even confess that I was shocked as hell
when this method actually worked. I was completely amazed. It is
what hooked me into the entire long road...

Notice that the above method not only *requires* remaining
continually lucid, it also requires employing significant
discipline within the shifting dream scenes, which naturally
being DILD may indeed be somewhat... unstable. It doesn't
matter what the dreaming scenes are, or what they may morph into.
Whatever the dreaming scenes do, you must simply keep performing
the same exercise over and over.

This lays down a distinct structure for sober behavior in lucid dreaming.

Slider, I've only asked that you complete this 10 times on
10 different days. I myself successfully performed the exercise
more than 10 times in my first year of dreaming alone (1985-86),
and had many other dreaming adventures besides, including learning
to intentionally fly and having what seemed to be several OOBEs
(but of course, really were not). And that was merely the bare
beginnings of my dreaming adventures over 30 years ago.

It's also interesting to note that at first I told no one else
in the world I was doing this. There were no internet discussions,
no Cleargreen, and not a single other person I knew had ever
mentioned attempting such a thing. I had not yet even heard what
"lucid dreaming" was. I had nothing to go on but these... books.

So... do you think you can do that, big shot?
Come on, it's only the first step to power. :)

Well, after succeeding at that 10 times, then, if you still want to,
you can come back and tell me about how much greater your lucidity
supposedly is when using WILD to initiate dreaming.

But until you can succeed at this task, maybe you shouldn't say
another word to me about how superior your method supposedly is.
You criticize me for finding it difficult to do your dreaming method.
Let's see if you can do mine.

***

Epilogue:

Of course, there's a snowball's chance in hell of you doing this.
It would probably be just as hard for you to use this method as
it would be for me to do WILD 10 times. It may well be almost
impossible for you if you do even try at all, simply because it
wasn't your own way of learning to do dreaming.

You may be comforted to know that Carlos himself largely
abandoned this dreaming technique, as he did so many of his
early practices. In The Art Of Dreaming, as the initial dreaming
exercise, in the first step at 'the first Gate' he replaces
this initial exercise with a method that's more like WILD. :)
Did you know that?

[slider]

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 21:05:25 -0000, Jeremy H. Denisovan
<david.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, January 29, 2018 at 11:57:32 PM UTC-8, slider wrote:
>> oh nooo, the bitch is back, bitchin' as usual...
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upR7GQ5ToCs
>>
>> :)
>>
>> > On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 11:18:41 PM UTC-8, slider wrote:
>> >> >> ### - still WILDing in yer then sleep eh? (WILDing with a lower
>> case
>> >> w
>> >> >> heh)
>> >> >
>> >> > honestly you wish you can have a lucid dream like this.
>> >> > this fucker was epic.
>> >>
>> >> ### - WILDs are epic, can't describe them any other way
>> >
>> > You describe some of yours just below, and... not epic.
>>
>> ### - being an old dild-o of old, who has nothing to compare/contrast it
>> too, you merely confuse 'content' with degrees of lucidity (you do this
>> several times below imagining you're making good points, when all you're
>> 'really' doing is revealing/confirming your 'lack' of experience with
>> WILDs)
>
> You don't even realize how you continually contradict yourself. :)

### - YOU don't even realise how you continually bs everyone in an
authoritarian/dictatorial manner.

seig fucking heil! :)

>
> In your last post, you tried to argue that there aren't degrees
> of lucidity, you claimed a person is either fully awake or
> a little bit asleep. And that's wrong.

### - lol you're a pedantic asshole AS usual! i wasn't even talking to
you! i was responding to chris?

i.e., i talk to chris differently than i talk to you! completely
differently! and if you hadn't BUTTED IN on our conversation in the first
place, you wouldn't now be being told to BUTT-OUT! (6 words, and he & i
understand each other almost perfectly! no difficulty whatsoever! 1000
words with YOU tho' and you STILL can't even keep up without having to
'invent' totally irrelevant shit just to have something to say??

duh! :)

>
> Now you're going to the other extreme, acting like WILD *always*
> results in some sort of "super-awakeness", with nothing whatsoever
> to back up that claim. And I can see that it too is wrong, which you
> could see as well if you simply thought for a second about the
> accounts of all these goombahs you have now doing their first WILDs.
>
> So apart from your tears of joy over having someone to argue with
> on the internet again... briefly... LOL... you're saying very little.

### - YOU'VE got nada whatsoever to back up YOUR claims! thus you're
forced to resort to INVENTING shit (LYING!) just to have something to say
& argue about??

you totally misunderstand what people are saying and then you're the
authority on the subject??

lol fuck off! i don't HAVE to answer to YOU! :)

truth is you understand very little! mainly because you don't (or just
can't) listen properly!

having heard the 'same' thing said more than several times put in
different ways, you're STILL unable to get what's actually being said?? i
mean, to completely miss the mark once or twice is permissible with such
difficult subjects, but to only ever hear your OWN ideas when listening to
other people's and then blame THEM because there's something YOU don't
understand, is moronic jeremy!

this isn't rocket science ya know! so are you just thick or what? lol! :D

### - so you 'say'? - and then you also affirm on several occasions that
you: CAN'T WILD!

bs jeremy! you haven't experienced anything! dilds yes WILDs no! and then
you fill in the blanks with pure horse shit LOL! over 25 years ago you
THINK you MIGHT have had 5 or 6 WILDS tops???

fuck off with that bs! you quite obviously don't know wtf you're even
talking about! they're NOT the same! and IF you'd ever REALLY WILDed you'd
KNOW that! but you haven't, and you don't! so why don't you STOP waffling
& bs-ing!

you might know something about dilds, but you DON'T know anything
personally about WILDs!

sorry pal, but 25+ year old 'memories' of what MIGHT have been WILDs just
doesn't count!

doesn't count for shit! so don't come-it like you're suddenly an expert on
WILDs already when you quite obvious are not! (you're SUCH a bullshitter!
and you don't see anything wrong with that?? well that makes ya a nutjob
then innit!) :D

>
>
>> fascinating actually! it's like being in another real world! a world in
>> which you yourself are also quite different! with access to areas of
>> awareness in oneself not normally available/accessible!

### - yes! (really laughing...)

> Like I don't know that. You are incapable of hearing a word I say.
> And now you're making fresh new claims since you've been pushed
> to do so by having your previous positions debunked.

### - am holding exactly the same position as i have all along jeremy! no
NEW claims at all!

again, you just haven't been listening!

> So now here's the new claim:
> "You yourself are also quite different, with access to areas of
> awareness in oneself no normally available/accessible."

### - i documented all this in the book? can't you read properly either?

this is nothing new! one's awareness IS different under the conditions of
lucid dreaming! and is certainly not the same as ordinary waking awareness
is! i don't, for example, have a photographic memory under normal
conditions, whereas in WILDing i do! plus loads of other things like that
too! :)

> Actually, that's true in certain ways and in others it isn't true.

### - am only interested in the way i've personally described it? i know
exactly what I'M saying alright, and also WHY am saying it, PLUS what it's
based on! i know what i mean! you DON'T want to know what i mean tho', you
just want to, off the bat, contradict everything and anything i might say!
you don't/wont even make the 'attempt' to grasp what am actually
saying/suggesting + why!

well it's no skin off MY nose jeremy if ya don't WANNA understand, duh!

personally, i think you actually understand all too well, and thus,
feeling threated as such, you literally trample down 'anything' that's
said + hijack every thread in order to turn it all into just another
slanging match?

call yourself an intellectual?? LOL no chance! you don't HAVE the required
disciple to even conduct yourself properly in a simple discussion, let
alone actually + genuinely debate something??

you're a dick! :D

>
> The way in which it isn't true is that there's no "ultra lucidity" -
> at least not that goes beyond being fully mentally awake, excited,
> and motivated. Or, if perhaps you simply never experience such
> states in waking then I feel sorry for you. Lucidity MEANS being
> fully aware that one is dreaming, while in full possession of one's
> waking memories. That's all it means. To have sharp and clear
> self-awareness of what one is doing in dreaming while in a state of
> rapt attention and while able to think similarly to when awake is...
> as good as 'lucidity' gets.

### - 'logic' ain't gonna get ya out of this situation jeremy! awareness
is different again under the conditions of WILDing; it's even MORE acute!
and IF you'd done any WILDs recently you'd know that! and you'd know the
difference too! as it is; all ya gots to play with is logical deduction as
backup?? there IS a difference! and you're NOT aware of it! (which is why
ya keep banging-on about dilds heh, like there's some comparison...)

>
> If you think there's some "supernatural awareness" going beyond
> that then I think you're as delusional as any Castaneda fanatic
> ever was.

### - see, there ya go again INVENTING shit?? lies! no one's even
mentioned the term "supernatural" except you?? plus YOU were the one who
WAS delusional re castaneda remeber, not moi? :)

there ARE some very strange things though that apparently only occur when
WILDing! and of which lucid dreaming is only ONE available thing? another
thing is being able to be in several places at the same time! (don't hear
much about 'that' in dilds do ya!) another thing is the 'midway point' (as
i've termed it...) a place in awareness apparently existing somewhere
between waking and lucid dreaming! it's also quite possible to stand in
ALL 3 places at the same time! (definitely very strange indeed hehehe, but
also extremely cool!)

>
> (There is also 'volition' similar to waking volition inside LD,
> which is another issue. When I did LD I had full waking awareness
> and more or less complete waking volition)

### - yeah, albeit coming from the opposite direction altogether? (rising
to waking awareness from a state of unconsciousness as in dilds, versus
not losing consciousness at all between waking and WILDing, and wherein
one doesn't at all feel like one IS asleep! (chris recently described
sitting in his bath experiencing something very much along these lines
that confirms the above? his comment at the time being along the lines of
exclaiming that " holy cow, it IS possible to be awake AND dreaming AT the
same time!" (or certainly said words to that effect no?)

but then i suppose you DON'T understand THAT either, have an alternate
explanation to explain it away, and thus want to contradict him too, yes?

all you do 'persisting' with this crap, is to continually reveal that you
don't actually KNOW wtf you're talking about in the first instance! you're
resorting to using dilds to 'explain' WILDs, when imho (and observation)
WILDs are far superior to dilds in almost every damn way!

> Now, the way in which what you said IS true - which we have not
> talked about much before, and which you're only bringing up now
> because you were badly losing the argument - is that in dreaming
> one gains new 'awarenesses' of all the myriad things one can do
> inside dreaming that can't be done at all in physical reality.
> But that's just because it's a virtual reality where even one's
> most outrageous fantasies of either thought or deed can manifest.
> So yes, there are new 'awarenesses' of those aspects of dreaming.

### - am not losing anything lol, i've been completely consistent all
along with this! and NOW you're reducing it all again to that of mere...
content??

it's NOT a fantasy to be able to flit between several places/positions at
once! neither is the midway point a fantasy! neither is the quite apparent
resulting qualitative difference existing between the 2 very different
approaches! i may have difficulty explaining/defining it, but that's only
because it's new and am thus forced to invent new terms for some of it!
terms that have yet to become fixed, so if i wanna switch to using the
term 'ultra' awareness in order to 'allude' to something not yet
definitively defined and nailed down, then i can! 'qualitative difference'
and 'ultra awareness' quite obviously referring to exactly the same thing
is all! a subjective impression! NOT a different thing! the SAME thing!
just different but ultimately similar terms attempting to
describe/allude-to the very SAME thing! :)

>
> There are different 'types' of 'volition' inside dreaming too,
> which are also related to activities you can only do in dreaming,
> like flying at will, for example.

### - not talking about such things because that's more to do with content
and not the raw + novel awareness itself that's involved!

> I am also well aware that there are strange types of 'cognition'
> in dreaming that aren't necessarily rational, once again,
> because all kinds of "magical" things are possible within the
> virtual reality of dreaming.

### - am not even talking about such things either heh, there's a place in
WILDs (the midway point) where one isn't even actually lucid dreaming! and
from which pov LDing becomes only a single option hovering ever so
slightly off to one's left! just as the clear option to be back in bed
hovers ever so slightly off to one's right (at least, that's how it
subjectively appears, just as when you're apparently standing in a
completely black void with no signs of even having a body at all; there IS
only a very subjective impression of up and down too!)

>
> But those different 'types' of 'awareness' are not directly related
> to degree of lucidity, which is what we were talking about. They are
> related to activities one can do only in dreaming. And most of those
> are not applicable in the real world.

### - well that's where your 'theory' is incomplete jeremy! only WITHIN an
actual lucid dream does ANY of what you describe above apply! you're
talking content again! and am NOT talking about the content of some lucid
dream! am talking about one's OWN altered sense (plus state) of awareness
that prevails UNDER such conditions!

if ALL you know IS content (the content of any resulting lucid dreams
themselves) then we're not at ALL on the same page here! you're still
talking about content and i'm talking about something else again!
something you'd know about yourself IF you'd been doing any WILDing
recently! consequently you're only 'theorising' whereas i'm speaking from
direct personal experience! as was chris in his bath etc just the other
day!

### - holodecking is only ONE option when WILDing! there ARE others!

> The simple lack of realization on your part is that the same
> degree of lucidity is quite possible in DILD. You always think
> the problem is that I haven't done WILD - and yet... I have.
> Not a lot, because I find it hard, but enough to know that
> it isn't different from where I got to in hundreds of DILDs.

### - nope, you're going-off on that same tangent again?

you've NEVER stood at that midway point jeremy! you've never experienced
that of being able to be in several places at once, including that of also
being in a lucid dream while all that is also going on! degrees of
lucidity refers only to being in a lucid dream! at the midway point
something is very different again! as is laying down in bed wide awake and
seeing/experiencing all this going on at the same time too! (chris was
both sitting IN his bath AND in a lucid dream AT the same time!)

>
>
>> 'your' problem... is that you initially investigated LDing with a very
>> heavy + set agenda! you went into it all with a whole heap of prior
>> expectations! (quite unrealistic expectations as it all turned out...)
>> and
>> when those phony expectations didn't materialise, you lost all interest!
>> effectively throwing the baby out with the proverbial bathwater in the
>> process!
>
> That actually wasn't the problem. In terms of achieving the highest
> possible degree of lucidity it was more of a benefit. Sure, I was
> delusional about exactly WHAT I was accomplishing in dreaming, yet at
> the same time, I was incredibly strongly motivated and totally serious
> about always doing my best at dreaming. The people you're turning on to
> WILD these days are only 'playing games' compared to what I was doing.
> I was putting my real life on the line and doing my level best to be
> 'impeccable' in dreaming at all times for years and years. That's one
> reason I KNOW with no doubt that it simply isn't possible to become
> "more lucid" than I had become, whether doing DILD or WILD.

### - you assert that but you don't actually KNOW that, you merely deduce
it because of some unchallenged beliefs you still harbour...

>
> That is the baseless assertion you keep making, that just by
> changing the induction method, I'll attain some new, heightened
> levels of lucidity. I know that can't be true because I regularly
> attained my own highest possible levels of dream lucidity ages ago.

### - going into the altered state of awareness called WILD from a totally
fully awake pov and experiencing no resulting break in ones stream of
waking awareness, IS very different indeed from entering into a dild from
the pov of first having to be fast asleep and then waking up into it,
often hours after you've fallen asleep... it IS different! very different
in fact, one is completely volitional and the other is not, end of! the
result of which is that of being offered different options along the way!
in which case WILDs trumps dilds every time if only for the completely
volitional aspect of it!

am snipping the rest as you merely belabour this erroneous point re
content over and over again to no avail because the answer is still the
same...

you're completely wrong in the context you're dealing with it/reducing it
all to :)

snip!

> You're right about only one thing, which is that - most of the time -
> the content of lucid dreaming doesn't really matter. But that's exactly

> why the... etc etc etc etc etc....

[slider]

On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 16:40:33 -0000, Jeremy H. Denisovan
<david.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You know Slider, maybe I've been approaching this whole thing wrong.
>
> I keep defending against all your assertions, as you keep insisting
> that everyone must learn to do lucid dreaming the same way YOU do.
> But suppose I was to turn the tables and start insisting that you
> must do dreaming the way I did? :)
>
> Let's even assume for argument's sake that you're right about it
> being easier to go lucid and stay lucid using WILD (maybe it is
> for many). Well, then perhaps it should be considered an even more
> difficult achievement to succeed at that same task using DILD.
> Right? I mean, if it's harder to maintain full awareness
> consistently in DILD (as you claim), that would only mean that to
> succeed at DILD tasks would require even more skill.
> More discipline. More sobriety. Yes?

### - have already agreed with you entirely on this! and is, for example,
precisely (as i've said before) why i put dilds in the 'advanced' section
of the book -= dilds ARE harder, not only to achieve but also to maintain!
they're VERY difficult indeed!

### - listen, if i can do WILDs then i'd have to say that just about
'anyone' can also do it too! there's nothing special about me in this, i
had express difficulty obtaining any dilds, for months on end: nada!

and then while still waiting and trying to dild i stumbled into WILDs and
haven't even looked back ever since, spontaneous dilds are now the order
of the day with me! i.e., more often than not when i don't go WILD and
instead fall asleep, a dild turns up all by itself with no effort at all!
which actually makes sense, in that there IS no on/off switch for dilds
are there is for WILDing! it's impossible to go directly to dilds!
everything ABOUT dilds perforce is indirect!

>
> ***
>
> Epilogue:
>
> Of course, there's a snowball's chance in hell of you doing this.
> It would probably be just as hard for you to use this method as
> it would be for me to do WILD 10 times. It may well be almost
> impossible for you if you do even try at all, simply because it
> wasn't your own way of learning to do dreaming.

### - there's no 'actual' way to try to dild as there is to WILD!

you could try every night and STILL wait forever on a dild or even your
next one IF you were lucky enough to nget one that is! and coz that's
what's involved with dilds: pure luck! whereas with WILDs one either lucid
dreams or not by choice alone! (only a fool would thus fail to see the
rather obvious advantage WILDs have over dilds, n'cest pa?)

> You may be comforted to know that Carlos himself largely
> abandoned this dreaming technique, as he did so many of his
> early practices. In The Art Of Dreaming, as the initial dreaming
> exercise, in the first step at 'the first Gate' he replaces
> this initial exercise with a method that's more like WILD. :)
> Did you know that?

### - i will never attempt to DILD again, if only because it's an
impossible task per se?

there's no direct route to it, see? no available on/off switch! thus i'd
only be jerking myself off even attempting it! :)

i mean, why gamble on a dild possibly for years on end, when one can
instead go directly to WILD if all one is seeking is the lucid dreaming
aspect of it all?

fortunately, that's not all there is to WILDs & WILDing heh, there's much
more than lucid dreaming alone involved, far more ;)

[Jeremy H. Denisovan]

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 9:59:33 AM UTC-8, slider wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 16:40:33 -0000, Jeremy H. Denisovan

> wrote:

[...snip...]

> > Epilogue:
> >
> > Of course, there's a snowball's chance in hell of you doing this.
> > It would probably be just as hard for you to use this method as
> > it would be for me to do WILD 10 times. It may well be almost
> > impossible for you if you do even try at all, simply because it
> > wasn't your own way of learning to do dreaming.
>
> ### - there's no 'actual' way to try to dild as there is to WILD!

Of course, there is. You just adopt the INTENT to succeed at it.
That's all I did.

It would really be kinda nice if you could ever acknowledge
my primary point, which is simply that FULL waking lucidity
CAN be reached in DILD. You just have to do the exercise I gave.
You don't even have to do it a hundred times like I did.
Let me assure you that gets boring, almost like 'working out'.
Yet to do so WILL result in FULL waking lucidity. I guarantee it. :)

And there's no lucidity beyond full waking lucidity.
That's as good as it gets. You may be doing other far-out stuff
with WILD by now that is probably more like some form of meditation,
but for sheer LUCIDITY, that's as good as it gets.

> you could try every night and STILL wait forever on a dild or even your
> next one IF you were lucky enough to nget one that is! and coz that's
> what's involved with dilds: pure luck! whereas with WILDs one either lucid
> dreams or not by choice alone! (only a fool would thus fail to see the
> rather obvious advantage WILDs have over dilds, n'cest pa?)

I already told you what the main advantage is. To learn by using
a systematic method in DILD FORCES you to develop greater discipline
and sobriety in dreaming. Similar to how lifting heavier weights
will eventually make you stronger.

> > You may be comforted to know that Carlos himself largely
> > abandoned this dreaming technique, as he did so many of his
> > early practices. In The Art Of Dreaming, as the initial dreaming
> > exercise, in the first step at 'the first Gate' he replaces
> > this initial exercise with a method that's more like WILD. :)
> > Did you know that?
>
> ### - i will never attempt to DILD again, if only because it's an
> impossible task per se?
>
> there's no direct route to it, see? no available on/off switch!

The on/off switch is intent.

It's kind of fun to look at what Carlos switched the technique to
in The Art Of Dreaming:

"The first gate is a threshold we must cross by becoming aware
of a particular sensation before deep sleep... A sensation which
is like a pleasant heaviness that doesn't let us open our eyes.
We reach that gate the instant we become aware that we're
falling asleep; suspended in darkness and heaviness."

Notice how similar that is to the moment just before WILD.

"There are no steps to follow. One just intends to become aware
of falling asleep... Intent or intending is something very
difficult to talk about. I or anyone else would sound idiotic
trying to explain it. Bear that in mind when you hear what I have
to say next: Sorcerers intend anything they set themselves to
intend, simply by intending it."

Well, ordinary humans do that too. :) The intent *I* am talking about
is just... ordinary human intent, which is probably the only kind
that really exists. That's truly how I succeeded at DILD on a
regular basis and how I reached full waking lucidity in DILD.

"the only way to intend is by focusing your intent
on whatever you want to intend" - don Juan

LOL.

It also helps to really give a fuck. :)

[shitholio]

last night in dreaming i interacted with this
short brown guy with long hair something like
how the beatles had back in the 60's. I kept
looking at his hair thinking this guy has changed.
He told me that these practices have been around
for 300 hundred years. I said three thousand? And
said no, 300 hundred years. He spent a long time
in the dream with me and my sister. How my sister
got in this dream i'll never know. She seldom shows
up in dreaming. But recently (in real life) we discovered
that we are half brother and sister. Her father is different
than my Father. So is my older sister. Great, just fucking
great. God damn 69 years later you find your moma was fucking
around with god knows who. Hey thanx Mom for being so up front.
Life never ceases to amaze the fuck out of ya huh? So you think
that little short dude in the dream was one little shaman man
from Peru? Could it be? He was so plain and ordinary. No big
razzle-dazzle horseshit, just simple everyday talk that i could
actually understand. No lucidity needed here folks. I just
"paid" attention to what he was saying. And then i woke up and
had a good laugh. Son of a bitch "only in dreaming" eh? :)

[shitholio]

should read three hundred years
(300) sorry about that.

[slider]

On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 19:00:52 -0000, Jeremy H. Denisovan
<david.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 9:59:33 AM UTC-8, slider wrote:
>> On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 16:40:33 -0000, Jeremy H. Denisovan
>> wrote:
>
> [...snip...]
>
>> > Epilogue:
>> >
>> > Of course, there's a snowball's chance in hell of you doing this.
>> > It would probably be just as hard for you to use this method as
>> > it would be for me to do WILD 10 times. It may well be almost
>> > impossible for you if you do even try at all, simply because it
>> > wasn't your own way of learning to do dreaming.
>>
>> ### - there's no 'actual' way to try to dild as there is to WILD!
>
> Of course, there is. You just adopt the INTENT to succeed at it.
> That's all I did.

### - so is that some kinda 'magical belief' or something, or what?? heh ;)

(kidding, i at least know what you mean, only i wouldn't exactly call
'that' a reliable switch involving a very more simple on/off like a real
switch?)

meaning; one could spend an eternity 'intending' to dild and never succeed!

even cc wrote that he initially spent a couple of years uselessly
'intending' to LD with little or no results to speak of? well, compare
'that' to the current record of only 11 days for a newbie obtaining their
first real WILD when deliberately initiated (i too spent somewhere around
18 months 'intending' to dild for all i was worth lol, with absolutely
nada to show for it!) there really is no comparable comparison between the
2 methods; one is purely practical and the other... unclear/nebulous, and
actually kinda non-rational/ridiculous involving no real + actual method
at all!

>
> It would really be kinda nice if you could ever acknowledge
> my primary point, which is simply that FULL waking lucidity
> CAN be reached in DILD.

### - never said it couldn't, only that it's NOT the norm/is actually
quite rare and definitely cannot be relied upon! not like you CAN rely on
WILDing...

i.e., offer someone the choice between waiting maybe 18 months just to
have their first LD, or only 2 weeks to their first WILD and see which
they'd more likely choose huh...

no comparison!

> You just have to do the exercise I gave.
> You don't even have to do it a hundred times like I did.
> Let me assure you that gets boring, almost like 'working out'.
> Yet to do so WILL result in FULL waking lucidity. I guarantee it. :)

### - couldn't have become MORE bored than waiting 18 months for fuck all
to materialise hah!

whereas after realising i could WILD i even managed to repeat the
experience the very next night!

so put the 2 offers side by side: 18 months of nada with absolutely NO
guarantee whatsoever, or only 2 weeks after which ya can quite
realistically repeat it virtually every night thereafter with no effort
whatsoever! and you see 'which' people would more likely choose as their
beginners method of choice?

like, how long did it take YOU to get your first dild via 'intending?

see what i mean? :)

> And there's no lucidity beyond full waking lucidity.
> That's as good as it gets. You may be doing other far-out stuff
> with WILD by now that is probably more like some form of meditation,
> but for sheer LUCIDITY, that's as good as it gets.

### - full is full alright, but is an unlikely standard eventuality where
dilds are concerned, yet ever-present with WILDs even from your very first
experience! and that's a BIG difference!

>> you could try every night and STILL wait forever on a dild or even your
>> next one IF you were lucky enough to nget one that is! and coz that's
>> what's involved with dilds: pure luck! whereas with WILDs one either
>> lucid
>> dreams or not by choice alone! (only a fool would thus fail to see the
>> rather obvious advantage WILDs have over dilds, n'cest pa?)
>
> I already told you what the main advantage is. To learn by using
> a systematic method in DILD FORCES you to develop greater discipline
> and sobriety in dreaming. Similar to how lifting heavier weights
> will eventually make you stronger.

### - sure, and if ya don't mind waiting maybe a couple YEARS to even get
the ball rolling?? lol

you were 'apparently' fairly lucky with it, but 'luck' it was as opposed
to just flipping a switch!

>> > You may be comforted to know that Carlos himself largely
>> > abandoned this dreaming technique, as he did so many of his
>> > early practices. In The Art Of Dreaming, as the initial dreaming
>> > exercise, in the first step at 'the first Gate' he replaces
>> > this initial exercise with a method that's more like WILD. :)
>> > Did you know that?
>>
>> ### - i will never attempt to DILD again, if only because it's an
>> impossible task per se?
>>
>> there's no direct route to it, see? no available on/off switch!
>
> The on/off switch is intent.

### - aha, and in which pocket do ya keep that switch ro play with then
huh?

that's NOT a switch jeremy, and/or is more like a genie in a bottle?

nah, ya can't seriously call 'intent' a switch lol, there's no comparison!
plus am surprised at you for even suggesting such a thing??

> It's kind of fun to look at what Carlos switched the technique to
> in The Art Of Dreaming:
>
> "The first gate is a threshold we must cross by becoming aware
> of a particular sensation before deep sleep... A sensation which
> is like a pleasant heaviness that doesn't let us open our eyes.
> We reach that gate the instant we become aware that we're
> falling asleep; suspended in darkness and heaviness."
>
> Notice how similar that is to the moment just before WILD.
>
> "There are no steps to follow. One just intends to become aware
> of falling asleep... Intent or intending is something very
> difficult to talk about. I or anyone else would sound idiotic
> trying to explain it. Bear that in mind when you hear what I have
> to say next: Sorcerers intend anything they set themselves to
> intend, simply by intending it."
>
> Well, ordinary humans do that too. :) The intent *I* am talking about
> is just... ordinary human intent, which is probably the only kind
> that really exists. That's truly how I succeeded at DILD on a
> regular basis and how I reached full waking lucidity in DILD.
>
> "the only way to intend is by focusing your intent
> on whatever you want to intend" - don Juan

### - amazing then what people can actually achieve when they put their
minds to it; we can apparently even achieve the impossible!

tell ya what; you stand on one corner offering 'intent' as the express
means to LD, and i'll stand on another offering a far more wholly
practical means of reaching a fully lucid dream state, and i think you
know what peeps would more likely go for?

> LOL.
>
> It also helps to really give a fuck. :)

### - newbies to LDing are genuinely + generally very enthusiastic, and
you're only bored with it now because it never went beyond the first gate?
else you'd likely still be doing it even now!

gates of dreaming eh?? i shit 'em! :)

and on them! heh...

don't need ANY of that crap to enter into a fully lucid dream state AND
into other actually + really quite interesting things to go along with
that! - WILDs are thus multifaceted, whereas dilds only really offer LDing
itself as the only goal (as you've personally proven) and not much else,
so no wonder then someone might become quite bored after a while playing
around with what is ostensibly only of entertainment value
alone/holodecking! (young gamers might like it but that's about all...)

besides which; dilds, because of their nature, are completely mystical
compared to WILDing...

there's really no comparison, not if you're honest at any rate!

the case for dilds is thus really quite... weak?

(i've literally had dozens and dozens of dilds by now and NONE of them the
result of having to intend it? at least not consciously anyway heh... plus
i still say they're weird and vague compared to the sheer instant clarity
of WILDs...)

with WILDs now clearly on offer, who needs dilds??

certainly not moi :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urMjGAimtRc

"can ya put your hands in your head, oh no"

[shitholio]

slider dude i worked out with shorty for the
first time back in august 1995. That very
night i had my first lucid dream. did i intend
or not? hell yes i intended. but i didn't get
a hernia doing it. i just 'let' it happen.
it's hard to explain but it's something like making
your bet at the track and then just letting your
horse run the race. You don't go sticking a broom
in your horse's ass or holding up a carrot.

[slider]

### - obviously you were (in cc's terms) merely riding on his personal
power that time, that he somehow managed to round-up your own "energy
body" in order to give you a demonstration just as he wrote about don juan
somehow giving him a very similar lesson?

plus, i can easily accept what you say, especially as i apparently did
something quite similar with you myself when starting you off on WILDs? (i
chatted with you and ya somehow did it but without knowing exactly how...
plus jeremy nearly split a gut when i suggested i'd helped ya do it
hahaha, remember? lol...

i willed/intended it was all but just don't ask me how ;)

[shitholio]

> i willed/intended it was all but just don't ask me how ;)

don't worry i won't.

[slider]

> don't worry i won't.

### - ahaha :D

[shitholio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEeY7Kw8mTo

in dreaming stand your ground
and then in the waking world
you will have a leg up already
practice it and you'll see

[shitholio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yA7HUlJsW8

please to meet you

[Jeremy H. Denisovan]

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 4:24:47 PM UTC-8, slider wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 19:00:52 -0000, Jeremy H. Denisovan

> wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 9:59:33 AM UTC-8, slider wrote:
> >> On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 16:40:33 -0000, Jeremy H. Denisovan
> >> wrote:
> >
> > [...snip...]
> >
> >> > Epilogue:
> >> >
> >> > Of course, there's a snowball's chance in hell of you doing this.
> >> > It would probably be just as hard for you to use this method as
> >> > it would be for me to do WILD 10 times. It may well be almost
> >> > impossible for you if you do even try at all, simply because it
> >> > wasn't your own way of learning to do dreaming.
> >>
> >> ### - there's no 'actual' way to try to dild as there is to WILD!
> >
> > Of course, there is. You just adopt the INTENT to succeed at it.
> > That's all I did.
>
> ### - so is that some kinda 'magical belief' or something, or what?? heh ;)
>
> (kidding, i at least know what you mean, only i wouldn't exactly call
> 'that' a reliable switch involving a very more simple on/off like a real
> switch?)

Your joke might have been funnier were it not for how you turned
around and acted like you honestly believe your own intent
somehow directly affected Chris. Which actually would be more of
a "magical belief". You realize that, right?

> meaning; one could spend an eternity 'intending' to dild and never succeed!

And yet it certainly wasn't my experience. It was the opposite.
Back in 1985 when I first decided to consciously attempt dreaming,
I began to succeed within only a couple of weeks of establishing
the definite intent to do it. Even back then I was surprised how
little time it seemed to take to 'kick in'. I was expecting a
longer struggle yet it happened fairly quickly.

> even cc wrote that he initially spent a couple of years uselessly
> 'intending' to LD with little or no results to speak of? well, compare
> 'that' to the current record of only 11 days for a newbie obtaining their
> first real WILD when deliberately initiated

Something around that same amount of time is about how long it took
me to do the very specific form of DILD I have described, after
setting the deliberate intent to do it. Has it ever occurred to you
that the simple intent to do dreaming could also have an impact
on how people succeed at WILD? It probably is a component.

Again, there's nothing mystical about it. I think it's just
setting a firm determination in oneself to accomplish it
(coupled with a feeling of confidence that one can do it),
which then becomes deeply internalized in the mind and
begins to affect actual behavior.

In the case of DILD, it was almost like setting an unconscious
"alarm clock" - like internalizing the unconscious command:
"I will become aware in the midst of a dream", and then somehow...
that alarm would go off and... I would become aware in a dream.
THEN I would deliberately perform acts to continually reinforce
and exercise that state.

In my experience, it wasn't too terribly difficult. Indeed,
WILD for me has always been considerably MORE difficult.
Because I have to somehow consciously "make a leap" INTO
the dream state. To me, that often seems just as hard as
intending to become lucid while already dreaming seems to you.
That's why I maintain that dreaming is subject to personal
preferences and 'predilections'. I don't think there's any
one "right way" for every person.

> (i too spent somewhere around
> 18 months 'intending' to dild for all i was worth lol, with absolutely
> nada to show for it!) there really is no comparable comparison between the
> 2 methods; one is purely practical and the other... unclear/nebulous, and
> actually kinda non-rational/ridiculous involving no real + actual method
> at all!

Right. But all that really shows is your own 'predilection'. Plus,
I'd guess you just found it hard to really 'believe in' DILD.
Also, if you do not have an "inner confidence" that you can achieve
what you're doing, then your intent is not potent. It's not exactly
like 'positive thinking'; it's more like harboring a truly confident
assumption that you can succeed.

Chris still finds it damn difficult to do WILD. Don't you, Chris?
So do I.

> > It would really be kinda nice if you could ever acknowledge
> > my primary point, which is simply that FULL waking lucidity
> > CAN be reached in DILD.
>
> ### - never said it couldn't, only that it's NOT the norm/is actually
> quite rare and definitely cannot be relied upon! not like you CAN rely on
> WILDing...

That's not honest. You've repeatedly implied that I couldn't have
attained full lucidity in DILD (although you have no way of knowing
what I have or haven't done).

> i.e., offer someone the choice between waiting maybe 18 months just to
> have their first LD, or only 2 weeks to their first WILD and see which
> they'd more likely choose huh...
>
> no comparison!

That's funny because it did take me right around 2 weeks
to succeed at my first "structured DILD" after distinctly
intending to try.

Precise comparison! :)

Although to be fully honest, when I made that first attempt I had
also begun using other early techniques from Ixtlan, such as
'disrupting routines', 'the right way of walking', and curtailing
'self-importance'. However, all that may merely have helped
establish intent.

> > You just have to do the exercise I gave.
> > You don't even have to do it a hundred times like I did.
> > Let me assure you that gets boring, almost like 'working out'.
> > Yet to do so WILL result in FULL waking lucidity. I guarantee it. :)
>
> ### - couldn't have become MORE bored than waiting 18 months for fuck all
> to materialise hah!

I only wrote that post about insisting you do dreaming my way
as a rhetorical device. I don't think you necessarily need to
do it my way, although the claim that it may build discipline and
sobriety to stay fully lucid in DILD may well be true. It's been
my position all along that people should use whatever methods of
dreaming work well for them. That's still my opinion.

> whereas after realising i could WILD i even managed to repeat the
> experience the very next night!
>
> so put the 2 offers side by side: 18 months of nada with absolutely NO
> guarantee whatsoever, or only 2 weeks after which ya can quite
> realistically repeat it virtually every night thereafter with no effort
> whatsoever! and you see 'which' people would more likely choose as their
> beginners method of choice?
>
> like, how long did it take YOU to get your first dild via 'intending?
>
> see what i mean? :)

Absolutely. In your case it's very clear.
Hopefully, you finally see what I mean, too. :)

> > And there's no lucidity beyond full waking lucidity.
> > That's as good as it gets. You may be doing other far-out stuff
> > with WILD by now that is probably more like some form of meditation,
> > but for sheer LUCIDITY, that's as good as it gets.
>
> ### - full is full alright, but is an unlikely standard eventuality where
> dilds are concerned, yet ever-present with WILDs even from your very first
> experience! and that's a BIG difference!

Ummm. No, what I have seen is that people can lose lucidity
(or never fully achieve it) in accounts of WILDs too. Maintaining
full lucidity and volition isn't guaranteed either in DILD or WILD.
It is, after all, an altered brain state, and peoples' mileage
seems to vary, from what I can see.

> >> you could try every night and STILL wait forever on a dild or even your
> >> next one IF you were lucky enough to nget one that is! and coz that's
> >> what's involved with dilds: pure luck! whereas with WILDs one either
> >> lucid
> >> dreams or not by choice alone! (only a fool would thus fail to see the
> >> rather obvious advantage WILDs have over dilds, n'cest pa?)
> >
> > I already told you what the main advantage is. To learn by using
> > a systematic method in DILD FORCES you to develop greater discipline
> > and sobriety in dreaming. Similar to how lifting heavier weights
> > will eventually make you stronger.
>
> ### - sure, and if ya don't mind waiting maybe a couple YEARS to even get
> the ball rolling?? lol
>
> you were 'apparently' fairly lucky with it, but 'luck' it was as opposed
> to just flipping a switch!

It wasn't luck. I did have a natural aptitude for dreaming, and yet
had experienced rudimentary lucid dreaming by what you call
"opportunity" alone only 3 or 4 times in the previous two decades.
When I began intending to do dreaming, I succeeded for the first time
in around two weeks and subsequently increased my frequency of LD
by well over 10 times what it had ever been "naturally". Again,
that is proof that intent made a difference.

It's not 'on-demand', though. It's a more... 'organic' way.
And realistically, for anyone with any kind of a "balanced life",
they're not going to want to do dreaming every single day anyway,
no matter what method is used. I doubt if even a total fanatic
like you does it every single day. :) And most people with
real lives probably wouldn't do it more than a few times a week,
even after becoming skilled at WILD.

I preferred the concept of doing dreaming when it is somehow
"the right time for it". And that's how I chose to do it, for the
next 20 years. With a good deal of effort, but without obsession. :)
I really think you ought to drop your seemingly strident insistence
that everyone on earth must do dreaming the same way you do, or that
people "replace sleep with it" or anything obsessive like that.
I find that sort of fanaticism to be unhealthy and borderline offensive.

"We won't talk about dreaming any more," he said. "You might
become obsessed. If one is to succeed in anything, the success
must come gently; with a great deal of effort, but with no stress
or obsession."

LOL. :)

> >> > You may be comforted to know that Carlos himself largely
> >> > abandoned this dreaming technique, as he did so many of his
> >> > early practices. In The Art Of Dreaming, as the initial dreaming
> >> > exercise, in the first step at 'the first Gate' he replaces
> >> > this initial exercise with a method that's more like WILD. :)
> >> > Did you know that?
> >>
> >> ### - i will never attempt to DILD again, if only because it's an
> >> impossible task per se?

And yet... you're almost contradicting yourself again, in that
you just told me you've had "dozens of DILDs" since learning
to WILD. To me, that's not mysterious because you set your intent
to do dreaming while doing WILD over and over. Naturally, that
could also cause you to have more DILDs. And you even say you are.
So actually, you too have already verified what I said.

If you thought about it, you would also realize that since you
now naturally have DILDs, you could also do the exercise exactly
as I suggested whenever you have DILDs. I'm not saying you
have to, just that you could, especially if you intend to. :)

It doesn't need to be a competition. Except to you... apparently. :)

> > LOL.
> >
> > It also helps to really give a fuck. :)
>
> ### - newbies to LDing are genuinely + generally very enthusiastic, and
> you're only bored with it now because it never went beyond the first gate?
> else you'd likely still be doing it even now!
>
> gates of dreaming eh?? i shit 'em! :)
>
> and on them! heh...

It's a pity you insist on remaining so arrogant about your ways.
I've decided that it's worthwhile and interesting to revisit
Castaneda's 'gates' to make some important points, so bear with me
and hear me out while I pursue that discussion further.

CC made a distinction between arriving at a gate of dreaming
and crossing it. In The Art Of Dreaming, he said one arrives
at the first gate by becoming aware of falling asleep, and
said one 'crosses' or 'passes' the first gate by doing this:

"First you must focus your gaze on anything of your choice as
the starting point. Then shift your gaze to other items and look

at them in brief glances. Focus your gaze on as many things

as you can. Remember that if you glance only briefly, the images
don't shift. Then go back to the item you first looked at...
"We reach the first gate of dreaming by becoming aware that we
are falling asleep, or by having, like you did, a gigantically
real dream. Once we reach the gate, we must cross it by being
able to sustain the sight of any item of our dreams."

So I was incorrect to say CC discarded my initial dreaming exercise
from Ixtlan. He didn't. What he actually did was to clarify that
achieving that result is how one *crosses* the first gate. It's also
very interesting that he said the first gate can be reached in
TWO ways, the second of which is having a gigantically real dream.

That's what YOU did when you first began WILDing. :)
You had a gigantically real dream.

And what does one supposedly get out of crossing the first gate?

"The most astounding thing that happens to dreamers... is that
on reaching the first gate, they also reach the energy body."

I don't believe in "the energy body" (though I supposedly
"reached it" and "crossed" the first gate over 30 years ago),
but let's ignore that for now and move on to the "second gate".

"You reach the second gate of dreaming when you wake up from
a dream into another dream."

That means I also reached the 'second gate' over 30 years ago,
and it means YOU have reached the second gate too (you were
talking about how you wake up in different beds in your dreaming).

I did this a lot without knowing what CC would later say about it.
In the late 1980's I naturally developed at least 3 different ways
of changing dream scenes while maintaining lucidity. Here's what
CC said about it in 1993, again in The Art Of Dreaming:

"There are two ways of properly crossing the second gate of dreaming.
One is to wake up in another dream, that is to say, to dream that one
is having a dream, and then dream that one wakes up from it. The
alternative is to use the items of a dream to trigger another dream."

I came upon both of those methods naturally in my own dreaming,
and added a few methods of my own, such as to simply close
my dream eyes, and intend to be in a new scene when I open them.

I want to emphasize that it is merely a natural progression to do
these things, especially after using the specific exercise I did.
Why? Because I was training myself to keep doing the same
exercise no matter what the dream scenes did. And since in DILD,
although the dream scenes can be stable for a while, eventually
they always shift, I got used to paying attention to dream scene
shifts, and to all the different ways they can happen. Next,
I started intentionally causing it to happen sometimes.

"How do we fixate the assemblage point on a dreaming position?"
"By sustaining the view of any item in your dreams, or by changing
dreams at will. Through your dreaming practices, you are really
exercising your capacity to be cohesive. That is to say, you are exercising
your capacity to maintain a new energy shape by holding the assemblage
point fixed on the position of any particular dream you are having..."
"How do we know we are maintaining cohesion?" "We know it by the clarity
of our perception. The clearer the view of our dreams, the greater
our cohesion."

I don't believe in "assemblage points", but I do know that in fully
lucid dreaming the clarity of even the strangest scenes can equal
the clarity and stability of our waking perception. And I did learn
how to change dreaming scenes at will.

YOU can do that too. Right?

The point is that it is natural to start focusing on different
ways of changing the dream scene while maintaining lucidity.
It is also natural, due to the phenomenon of false awakenings,
to begin to focus on maintaining lucidity while "waking up"
in different dreaming scenes.

So here we are, well into the "second gate", and so far everything
is really only a natural progression related to the attempt to
become competent and disciplined at lucid dreaming. And I arrived
at this 'second gate' 30 years ago, without being instructed on it.

Also notice, so far, there is nothing particularly or necessarily
REAL about any of this dreaming activity, other than the activities
themselves. So far, it's all just about maintaining, expanding,
and improving one's dreaming awareness.

But here's where the whole Castaneda thing jumps the shark. :)

"Upon crossing the first or second gate of dreaming, dreamers reach
a threshold of energy and begin to see things or to hear voices.
Not really plural voices, but a singular voice. Sorcerers call it
the voice of the dreaming emissary... "Let's say that the dreaming
emissary is a force that comes from the realm of inorganic beings.
This is the reason dreamers always encounter it... "Everyone hears
the emissary. Very few see it or feel it."

and...

"The second gate of dreaming is reached and crossed only when a
dreamer learns to isolate and follow the foreign energy scouts...
Waking up in another dream or changing dreams is the drill devised...
to exercise a dreamer's capacity to isolate and follow a scout...
Following a scout is a high accomplishment... When dreamers are able
to perform it, the second gate is flung open and the universe that
exists behind it becomes accessible to them... In essence, the
second gate of dreaming is the door into the inorganic beings' world,
and dreaming is the key that opens that door."

and...

"To be transported by a scout is the real dreaming task of the second gate."

Now THAT is a horse of a different color. We are now being told that
in order to progress further in dreaming we must hear voices
and be transported in our dreams to other worlds by alien beings.
Also, we've been told all this by a man we caught telling dozens of
outlandish lies. :)

This is the 'demarcation point' in Castaneda's dreaming. It is where
dreaming stops being a natural practice within one's own mind and
starts REQUIRING the belief that DREAMING WORLDS AND BEINGS ARE REAL.
And not only that they are real, but also that they are dangerous.

That's where I had to get off the train. Even if you experienced
all this, how could you know whether it was real or if you were
just going nuts?

Yet there was supposed to be a way to tell. That way requires going
further still, to "the third gate", where what supposedly happens is:
"a true merging of your dreaming reality and your daily reality".

Quotes on the third gate:

"By dreaming what you've dreamt - that you saw yourself asleep -
you arrived at the third gate. The second phase is to move around
once you've seen yourself asleep... At the third gate of dreaming...
you begin to deliberately merge your dreaming reality with the reality
of the daily world. This is the drill, and sorcerers call it completing
the energy body."

"The given drill at the third gate... is to consolidate the energy body.
Dreamers begin forging the energy body by fulfilling the drills of the
first and second gates. When they reach the third gate, the energy body
is ready to come out... it is ready to act.

At the third gate, dreamers have to avoid a nearly irresistible impulse
to plunge into everything, and they avoid it by being so curious,
so desperate to get into everything that they don't let any particular
thing imprison them."

"At the third gate the entire energy body can move like energy moves:
fast and directly."

"The moment the energy body can move on its own... the optimum
position of the assemblage point has been reached. The next step is
to stalk it, that is, to fixate it on that position in order to
complete the energy body... One intends to stalk it... Let your
energy body intend to reach the optimum dreaming position... Then,
let your energy body intend to stay at that position and you will
be stalking... Intending is the secret... Sorcerers displace their
assemblage points through intending; and fixate them, equally,
through intending. And there is no technique for intending.
One intends through usage."

So there it is. The third gate is also all about intent.
Intent to see oneself sleeping. Intent to not become immersed in
detail. Intent to reach the optimum position for moving as energy.
And intent to fixate on your final optimum position.

"You have fulfilled the drill for the third gate of dreaming:
moving your energy body by itself. Now you are going to perform
the real task: seeing energy with your energy body."

The real tasks of the third gate, in addition to consolidating the
energy body, are "to determine whether the items on which you focus
your dreaming attention are energy generating, mere phantom
projections, or generators of foreign energy", and to "in full
consciousness, to use the avenue of awareness to make a journey"
(into another real world).

This is also how you tell if you're looking at your real sleeping
body or not, you have to "see energy". But forget about all that
for a second...

The key issue is that at the third gate, you can allegedly act
in the real world with your dreaming body. And if you could really
do that, then you could prove what you do in dreaming is real.

Supposedly, "dreams can take place in the consensual reality of
our daily world".

If anyone had ever *proved* that, I would have kept totally
knocking myself out to do all of these things. I would not ever
have stopped. But NO ONE EVER DID. :) Not only that, but at the
same time, most of those people either fucked up, ran away, or died.

For years, I was supposedly surrounded by naguals, scouts,
death defiers, inorganic beings, etc. and yet... not a single one
of these allegedly magical beings ever simply demonstrated beyond
a doubt that they can ACT in the real world using the 'energy body'.
No one ever did, in spite of how the entire time I was around them
I had already long been at the alleged 'second gate', on my own.

All any of those people had to do was to prove they could act
in the daily world with their energy body, but it didn't happen.
When you couple that with how we subsequently caught them lying
over and over, the obvious probable conclusion is: none of the
claims of the later 'gates' are truly possible.

Everything beyond the 'natural demarcation point' I noted above
is almost certainly mainly exaggerations, fantasies, and lies.

However, I must admit I do still wonder how Castaneda got so much
about dreaming correct. There seems to be deep consistency which
runs through his dreaming praxis, and yet no one has ever shown
his advanced techniques are real. I'm left to conclude that he
probably used his standard method of taking some things that are
to some extent real, and then exaggerating them grandiosely.

In reality, there may be all kinds of other things possible
in DILD or WILD, and with lucid dreaming in general, but everything
that extends past the beginning of the "second gate" in Castaneda's
works is probably fiction.

If somehow it's not fiction, what has to happen (for anyone in
his/her right mind to ever take any of it seriously) is for
ONE person to conclusively prove it's possible to act in the real
world with their "energy body". That's really all that ever needed
to happen to "start the revolution". And yet... since it never did,
that "revolution" must have been a lie.

There is only one other remote possibility, which is that somehow
Castaneda accessed some genuine information about advanced dreaming
that he and his own people could not truly actualize. That possibility
is also far-fetched, and I'd simply say the same thing about it,
that I could not ever take it seriously until at least one person
demonstrates the claims objectively by acting in the real world
as an 'energy body' (such a person could easily prove they had
baffling supernatural abilities).

> don't need ANY of that crap to enter into a fully lucid dream state AND
> into other actually + really quite interesting things to go along with
> that! - WILDs are thus multifaceted, whereas dilds only really offer LDing
> itself as the only goal (as you've personally proven) and not much else,
> so no wonder then someone might become quite bored after a while playing
> around with what is ostensibly only of entertainment value
> alone/holodecking! (young gamers might like it but that's about all...)

If complete lucidity and full volition are possible using DILD -
and I know very well they are - then anything else you may be doing
using WILD may also be possible using DILD. At least, you shouldn't
just assume they're not. You're still very far from being an expert
on DILD, just as I am far from being an expert on WILD.

You have only described this "being in several places at once"
thing in a vague way. So... how many places are we talking about?
If it's more than 3 (which we've discussed before and which I've had
experience with myself), then it sounds like it might merely be...
confusing. Maybe you could explain why you think it is important?

> besides which; dilds, because of their nature, are completely mystical
> compared to WILDing...
>
> there's really no comparison, not if you're honest at any rate!
>
> the case for dilds is thus really quite... weak?
>
> (i've literally had dozens and dozens of dilds by now and NONE of them the
> result of having to intend it? at least not consciously anyway heh... plus
> i still say they're weird and vague compared to the sheer instant clarity
> of WILDs...)

To arrive at full lucidity and volition in DILD you have to
systematically control your dreaming actions. But I'm certainly
not the only one to ever do it. Many sleep lab experimenters have
done it too, by performing objective dream experiments.
I probably overkilled the hell out of it.

> with WILDs now clearly on offer, who needs dilds??
>
> certainly not moi :)

Except as a rhetorical device, I have never insisted anyone do
DILD the same way I do. I think it might open people's eyes if
they did, but I've always been accepting of other methods.
You're the one who keeps insisting or implying that everyone
must do dreaming as you do. Maybe you should rethink that.

[slider]

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 17:21:07 -0000, Jeremy H. Denisovan
<david.j...@gmail.com> wrote:


>> with WILDs now clearly on offer, who needs dilds??
>>
>> certainly not moi

> Except as a rhetorical device, I have never insisted anyone do
> DILD the same way I do. I think it might open people's eyes if
> they did, but I've always been accepting of other methods.
> You're the one who keeps insisting or implying that everyone
> must do dreaming as you do. Maybe you should rethink that.

### - all i've stated/affirmed is that WILDs are an instant upgrade to
dilds, of going from doing things completely 'unconsciously' to something
far more consciously volitional thereby avoiding all the nonsense,
mumbo-jumbo and ridiculous convoluted procedures of dilds...

you, for example, admittedly can't even do them, yet you insist/imply
(without even any real experience of being able to do them) that it's
basically no different (or better) than learning to dild - and, when
confronted with that, then escape/hop to stating that it all doesn't
matter anyway because dreaming is still only dreaming heh...

no jeremy, you may indeed know a heck of a lot about *dilds* but nothing
as yet about WILDs, so you're in no position to say anything about them
other than to express your your 'belief' that it's none of the things i've
said, and you really don't know that!

personally, i would have thought you'd have been only too GLAD to finally
dispense with cc's convoluted methods altogether, even to cutting him out
of the picture altogether? but no, talk about WILDs and ALL i/we get is
some bs diatribe and quotes FROM castandea??

and well, you can STICK with cc's methods if ya want (and even recommend
them apparently heh) but i don't need them, and, with the clear advent of
WILDs onto the scene, neither does anyone else! it's all completely moved
on from there & that!

and maybe you should rethink 'that'. :)

[shitholio]

the thing about getting relaxed enough to fall
into a wild seems to be the key. I've tried to
relax the fuck out of myself only to only maybe
drift off and go to sleep. yeah that one time
(only 1 time) i dozed off in the hot tub. It
was such a fluke that i have not been able to do
it again. I'm tryin', son of a bitch, you can't
get much more relaxed than laying in a hot tub.
I even made the water at 98 degrees so that the
heat would not be a distraction. I think some of
these guys who are long time meditators could get
to the spot relatively fast. I never 'went' anywhere
when i mediated. Oh if i go 37 minutes i can see a blue
hole looking out in the sky. But that's it, that is as
far as she goes. You wake up sometime. What i am suppose
lay there for 2 hours like an idiot in order to 'see' something?
Really? I rather go for a dild in dreaming, at least i can snooze.
But IF i ever get lucky you guys will be the first to hear about it.

[slider]

### - you've had enough' experiences of WILDing by now to know for sure
that it's a distinct possibility? (that it really can happen!)

well ok then, mow you're convinced that it CAN actually happen, and
assuming you'd still actually like to be ab;e to do it, it's your job now
to go claim this (or rather: give this) ability to yourself in the very
simple manner already suggested: a small but systematic effort lasting for
2 weeks or there abouts, that will eventually drop the whole thing right
into your own lap complete and entire, with YOU as the person initiating
it instead of (like now) being a passive passenger just hanging around
waiting for it to come to you...

a week of practicing how to 'consciously' relax the body followed by a
week of using that state same of light relaxation (which is NOT sleep btw)
as a springboard into WILDing! simples! :)

you can defo do it, you just haven't actually 'tried' to do it in the
prescribed manner & way in order to get-going with it all...

plus 'after' ya get going with it (after several deliberately initiated
experiences of actually succeeding i mean) you'll quite naturally begin to
adapt it all more to your 'own' liking and/or predilection...

and that's it! no more 'excuses' and dithering about not being sure etc
etc, only YOU can possibly give this to yourself no one else!

think of this: it's been 2 years (this month) and you still haven't made
the minimal amount of consistent effort required to pull this all off,
even though there's nothing actually complicated about it??

2 years! and ya still can't pull a simple 2-weeks effort outta ya ass
already?? (j/k?)

c'mon! who ya kidding! ya just haven't really tried is all :D

2 weeks from now (or less) you 'could' be doing this every single time ya
wanted to, and NOT only at bedtime! (as your bath experience clearly +
obviously proved...)

so no more 'excuses' ok?

either DO it, or don't bother at all...

the only 'actual' difficulty involved is that of overcoming 'already'
ingrained actions & reactions such as piling into bed and falling fast
asleep in the usual rapid manner...

and that's ALL there is to it! :)

-------

It’s really as simple as that! What is not simple, however, is to adapt
these otherwise already ingrained reactions and responses to ordinary
situations and things, which is why, in the initial stages at least, and
paradoxically so, we regularly get booted out; not in spite of, but
rather, because of them.

from: 'The WILD Way To Lucid Dreaming'

[slider]

Entering into sleep in such an unconscious manner automatically results in
ordinary, random, non-lucid dreams, something which seems quite obvious,
if you think about it. Whereas to enter into the sleeping state
consciously and deliberately instead, results in something else
altogether. It results in dreams again, but this time fully lucid ones in
which one is completely aware of being in a dreaming state and can control
their dreams to varying degrees depending on what you want (and know) to
do with them.

*** Furthermore, the only real difficulty people might experience in
attempting to lucid dream is basically that of correcting and getting over
our more usual, sloppy habit of just letting ourselves be pulled into
sleep in a completely unconscious manner.***

If I appear to be belabouring this point, it is because I believe that
this particular realisation rests at the very crux of understanding
exactly what ordinary dreams and lucid dreams are and why they occur.
Namely, that what we usually call ‘falling asleep’ is, in fact, the
unconscious entering into an available altered state of awareness, one
that somehow energetically refreshes the body and mind and one to which we
return night after night but only because we have to.

--The WILD Way To Lucid Dreaming.

[shitholio]

then perhaps it is a lifetime of
bad habit then? it is the not
doing of falling asleep like the
rest of the flock.

[Jeremy H. Denisovan]

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 12:54:11 PM UTC-8, shitholio wrote:
> the thing about getting relaxed enough to fall
> into a wild seems to be the key. I've tried to
> relax the fuck out of myself only to only maybe
> drift off and go to sleep. yeah that one time
> (only 1 time) i dozed off in the hot tub. It
> was such a fluke that i have not been able to do
> it again.

Exactly.

I did manage to succeed at it a few times too, but those instances
were scattered over a period of years, and the conditions had to be
just perfect for me to succeed. The best way for me to succeed at it
was to wake up in the middle of the night and try it then, when I'd
already had some sleep yet was still drowsy, and it was dead silent.

> I'm tryin', son of a bitch, you can't
> get much more relaxed than laying in a hot tub.
> I even made the water at 98 degrees so that the
> heat would not be a distraction. I think some of
> these guys who are long time meditators could get
> to the spot relatively fast. I never 'went' anywhere
> when i mediated. Oh if i go 37 minutes i can see a blue
> hole looking out in the sky. But that's it, that is as
> far as she goes. You wake up sometime. What i am suppose
> lay there for 2 hours like an idiot in order to 'see' something?
> Really? I rather go for a dild in dreaming, at least i can snooze.
> But IF i ever get lucky you guys will be the first to hear about it.

For you, DILD is easier, just as it is for me.

Slider, I wrote all that about Castaneda's methods not to recommend
them, but really just to summarize all my own thinking about them.

[shitholio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3_RCJ3Szjc

this will keep your spirit it.

only the best for doing your best eh?

[slider]

crsds wrote...

### - you can't wait for WILDs to come to YOU like ya do with dilds!

being the 'conscious' form of LDing YOU have to go to THEM!

Relaxation Techniques.

There are many ways of achieving a state of relaxation. You may already
know some and be using them fairly regularly anyway. If so, that’s just
fine as it will definitely save you time later while becoming familiar
with using a state of relaxation as a springboard into lucid dreaming.

Okay, so this is where the fun really begins. Better sit down and strap
in, since for our current purposes I’ll be concentrating on just one or
two quite simple but effective methods of getting oneself sufficiently
relaxed to invoke our hidden, innate ability to hop off into a waking
dream state at will. Both methods are rather similar.

For the first I’d initially suggest getting yourself into bed and lying
down on your left side with your knees together and your legs slightly
bent. Give your body a little time to adjust to the exertion involved of
getting into bed and settling down into a comfortable position. Just lie
there for a few minutes in the dark until your breathing and heart-rate
gradually slow down to a steady rhythm.

After about five minutes, when your breathing has settled right down and
has become steady and regular, deliberately take a long, deep breath by
breathing slowly in through your nose until no more air can get in. Don’t
force anything or cork your throat by letting go and relaxing your chest
once fully inflated. Keep your throat held open and hold that breath for
about four or five seconds or so and then let it out again very slowly
through the mouth while at the same time trying to feel any residual
tension in your muscles draining out of your body and sinking down through
the bed and into the floor. Make a conscious attempt as you breathe out to
feel your whole body becoming even more relaxed than it was before, as
though it was sinking down into the bed. Aim via these breaths to let your
body become so relaxed that if anyone were at one point to lift one of
your arms and let it go again, the arm would just flop right back to where
it was under its own weight without any help from you.

Do this long breath just the once and then let your body return to
breathing again under its own steam. Spend a few moments breathing
normally, just letting your body breathe as it may, and then, after a
little while, deliberately take another long slow breath in through your
nose feeling your whole body tense up slightly as you control the intake
of air, letting your lungs fill up as much as they can without forcing
anything, again holding that breath when it reaches the top by maintaining
the ever so slight pressure of breathing in (i.e. by not corking your
throat in order to hold it locked in) for another count of four or five
seconds before slowly letting that breath out through your mouth while at
the same time deliberately letting go of your body as though you were
weightless. When all the air is naturally out (again without forcing
anything) let your body return to its usual way of breathing for a couple
of minutes or so, noting how much more your body feels relaxed each time.

Repeat this exercise several times over the course of the next few minutes
and you’ll probably be surprised at just how tense you actually were, even
though your body felt completely relaxed before. A good example of this is
around the head, neck and shoulders area which seems to sink ever deeper
than before into the pillow each time you do the long breath out. Try to
detect any residual muscle tension from your body sink down into the bed
and floor as a mild sensation similar to that of going down in an
elevator. Pay particular attention to these areas of the head, neck and
shoulders, working through them in sequence if necessary until they all
feel completely relaxed and as sunken into your pillow as they’re likely
to get.

Keep this up for about ten to twenty minutes in total, alternating between
normal breathing and the occasional long controlled one and/or until you
experience a sensation of feeling like a complete dead weight, trying each
time to aim for that feeling of being so relaxed that if someone were to
lift your arm and let it go again it would just flop back to your side.

You may also feel at this point a very slight overall tingling sensation,
a kind of spreading numbness in your limbs, and also notice that your
breathing is now beginning to be composed of slow, far slighter breaths
coming more from the lower part of your abdomen (belly breaths). This is
perfect. Don’t try to force this situation to come about, let it occur
naturally through using your breathing to release muscle tension. This is
precisely the easy state of mental and physical relaxation one is aiming
for in order to begin trying to lucid dream, and this feeling of bodily
lightness or largeness coupled with belly breaths confirms it.

The second method consists of doing exactly the same breathing exercises
for a few moments to get started, but this time systematically working all
the way up from your toes to the top of your head, gradually releasing all
bodily tension from each area down through the bed and into the ground as
you go. Again, spending at least fifteen to twenty minutes or so on this,
the time it takes to reach a state of relaxation gradually becoming
shorter with each session as your ability to relax at will progresses.
Don’t worry if it takes longer in the initial stages, you are learning to
consciously relax your body and it takes a little practice. You may have
to try for forty minutes the first few times to reach and recognise this
state of being but, rest assured, you’ll quickly get it all down to under
twenty minutes or so with familiarity and practice. In the meantime, just
enjoy it for what it is; the setting out upon a new adventure. Don’t rush
things. Enjoy every part and stage of it!

In order later to reach a state of lucid dreaming, it’s also very
important during these relaxation exercises not to move or change your
body position or posture at all, particularly during the last few minutes
of doing them. During the first few minutes get yourself into a
comfortable enough position and try to maintain it and to also perfect
that position by tweaking it minutely here and there until you don’t need
to settle down or move anymore. After that don’t even move an inch.

The end result of relaxing without moving like this is eventually to
achieve a mild sensation of floating, or of the body having slightly
expanded in some way. At this point the hands will possibly sometimes feel
kind of puffy or enlarged. Other times it’s as though one can no longer
tell the exact proportion or size of bodily areas you happen to focus on.
For example, upon focusing on them my teeth once lost their usual
dimensions of size, feeling huge and disproportionate for the size of my
mouth until they felt the size of tombstones. A very odd sensation indeed,
but I stress that all these minor sensations are perfectly normal, they’re
a novelty, enjoy them and explore them for what they are, they are nothing
to worry about and are really only clues the body provides us with to let
us know we’re nearly ready now to enter into a lucid dreaming state.

Once you’ve reached this floating feeling of relaxation, the next step is
to absolutely and deliberately turn your attention completely away from
all and any sensations of the body altogether, totally ignoring them.
Having served their purpose they are no longer important. Peer instead at
the
blank dark screen you can see just behind your closed eyes. Don’t move at
all and hang on to that feeling of lightness or floating and stare at the
darkness that’s right there in front of your face until you begin to
notice the odd blob or streak of colour appearing and disappearing at
random.

Your body may feel a little strange at this point but just totally ignore
it (or any other sensations) by deliberately placing and holding your full
attention ‘only’ on what your eyes can see.
At this point, consciously adjust your focus so it’s as though you are
looking at an area about ten to fifteen inches away from your face. Keep
your eyes closed and let any blobs and splashes of colour come and go as
they please. Don’t attempt to control these effects in any way, just keep
watching for them by staring straight ahead until you perhaps notice the
appearance of an image of some kind. This is the next stage.

The following images can be rather faint and fleeting (fast), not really
giving you the time to focus on them properly, but that’s okay, don’t
worry about it, just let them come and go as they please and wait for the
next one to appear. Having already made yourself relax you shouldn’t be
thinking about your body or your breathing at all by having deliberately
forced your attention away from them onto only what your closed eyes can
see. Don’t try to do anything other than watch those images come and go,
the same way as those blobs and streaks of colour did, especially since at
this point you are nearly ready to attempt entering into a dreaming state.

The only problem you may initially encounter at this stage is that of
accidentally drifting right off into a deep sleep, and this is something
that’s quite likely to happen repeatedly until you learn to recognise this
as being a distinct possibility. After all, every night for the duration
of our lives to date, we’ve always piled into bed with the express
expectation of getting off to sleep as quickly as possible. We never know,
or even remember, just exactly how (or when) we actually drifted off, but
usually just lie there kind of relaxing and getting comfortable while
waiting to be somehow snatched away.

It’s a ritual we’ve all unconsciously learned to perform since before we
were born. One feels kind of drowsy and the eyes close while not really
thinking of anything in particular, and before you know it we’ve gone off
to sleep without even realising it. Suddenly it’s the next day, something
we’re all totally expert at doing by now because we’ve been doing it all
our lives. Children (and insomniacs) are the only ones who tend to exhibit
any difficulty in getting off to sleep sometimes and so we distract them
by reading them stories and singing them lullabies and as soon as they
stop struggling against it their little eyes glaze over and off they jolly
well go! (Peace reigns at last. Whew!)

But I digress…so anyway, keep going like this, lightly gazing at fleeting
images while trying not to accidentally nod off completely, until a really
clear image shows up, sometimes shockingly so! Next, do your best to let
your eyes examine some of that image’s details.

(from the TWWTLD...)

***

again, WILDs can't be reached/achieved in a haphazard way like dilds are,
the above technique being anything but complicated (a starter only for 10)
has to be consistently performed for several nights on the trot to be
effective + once ya eventually push through to the other side (heh) you'll
begin to develop your very own personal technique for getting there...

falling asleep in the middle of this exercise 10 times (or whatever) on
the trot is perfectly normal, the 'habit' (of a lifetime) of doing so has
to be broken in order to bring you face to face with the process itself
that 'unconsciously' whisks us off into sleep night after night after
night, change this ritual habit, however, and it literally changes
everything!

smile... there's no way yo 'nag' you (or anyone) into being consistent
with this (laughing) so really it's up to YOU to attempt this enough times
to be successful...

the current record holder was only successful with this on his 11th
attempt!

:)

[slider]

Jeremy wrote...

(to chris...)

> For you, DILD is easier, just as it is for me.

### - falling 'asleep' like a baby is easier for... 'everyone'

no 'effort' required to just fall asleep like an idiot!

going WILD takes a little conscious/deliberate 'effort' is all lol :)))

> Slider, I wrote all that about Castaneda's methods not to recommend
> them, but really just to summarize all my own thinking about them.

###' - yeah well shut up about them then LOL, they have absolutely no
place with WILDs!

they're not even relevant!

unless of course you KEEP trying to MAKE them relevant?? heh...

FORGET castaneda! FORGET castenada's techniques!

this is NOT castaneda!

cc was 30 years ago! let castaneda... GO!

and then maybe you'll find something... different ;)

DIFFERNT! (really laughing hehehe...)

[shitholio]

dude this a very focused process you are
mentioning here. Now you're talking about
really focusing on relaxation. This requires
a very specific plan until you can get to it
on your own. I actually think your attempt
here is so good that at the very least if one
falls asleep that you stand a very good chance
at falling into a dild by accident. The trick
is to get as silent as possible at the moment
of sleep. Or at the moment of images coming
in play on your 'screen'. This is a good reference
for trying this, this is a good guide. I'll give
it a go. 20 to 40 minutes is a serious attempt.
That ain't no foolin' around my friend. Your method
is a very sustained attempt. Strong intent pally.

[slider]

mr chips wrote...

### - the 'whole thing' is an attempt to 'move away' from 'unconscious'
behaviour...

and perforce this 'includes' consciously relaxing!

iow: the whole attempt commences with learning to 'consciously' relax!

its important to be (and remain) conscious throughout the relaxing process
too!

this then puts ya in the perfect position to 'consciously' enter into the
first stages of what we've been calling: sleep! (i don't care what anyone
says/suggests; i really don't think we're actually asleep at the point of
beginning to gaze at the hypnagogia...)

you'll know/recognise when your body is relaxed enough (20 to 40 mins for
newbies) when it 'begins' to feel a bit different! (hands feel puffy, body
feels slightly wider/bigger etc) and that's all ya have to arrive at via
the relaxing bit, you don't have to go any farther than that! as soon as
your body feels only a BIT different you're now ready to go on to the next
stage!

this first stage passed, next: ya consciously remove 'all' attention from
how your body feels altogether by focusing now on only what your closed
eyes can see, state straight ahead at a distance of around 10 to 15 inches
away from your face... the hypnagogia will begin to appear now, if it
hasn't already started appearing...

stare straight ahead only, eventually images etc will also begin to appear
more in your direct line of sight, these are the ones to go for so don't
move your eyes around at all (if you move your eyes about the images will
likely all disappear and you'll have to start over waiting for them...)

you shouldn't be thinking/noticing your body at all by now, the images get
clearer and clearer so when a really clear image shows up make an attempt
to examine some of its finer details, this is the practice, and because
looking at the finer details of any image is the very thing that finally
beckons ya right into a WILD! this is usually immediately followed by:
Yikes! Zing! D'OH! as ya bounce back out from the sudden jolt of being
yanked into a WILD - no problem tho', just wait till the next image shows
up and have another go straight away :)))

and it's really no more complicated/complex than that! just a very simple
progression!

ya 'consciously' relax your body, and then ya 'consciously' isolate
hypnagogia to examine in detail, and then ya 'consciously' find yourself
right in the most epic lucid dream ever!

fortunately for you (and all dild-doers too as it goes) you already know
perfectly well how to behave in a lucid dream so's not to get immediately
booted out, so the typical learning curve for old dild-os is actually
shorter...

the current record (for an absolute beginner) is 11 days, so you should be
quite able to beat that really, as all it takes is a consistently
'conscious' effort...

everything ABOUT WILDing is the result of a - 'conscious' - effort

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsUpvFL_sGg

ya gots to be a conscious mon! :)

ya dig?

[shitholio]

> ### - the 'whole thing' is an attempt to 'move away' from 'unconscious'
> behaviour...

i see that. (said the blind man) ha ha

> and perforce this 'includes' consciously relaxing!

> iow: the whole attempt commences with learning to 'consciously' relax!

> its important to be (and remain) conscious throughout the relaxing process
> too!

hey dave i think we have found the new nagual of dreaming eh?
don Slider, you are at our service now aren't ya? lol!

> this then puts ya in the perfect position to 'consciously' enter into the
> first stages of what we've been calling: sleep! (i don't care what anyone
> says/suggests; i really don't think we're actually asleep at the point of
> beginning to gaze at the hypnagogia...)

i think you are correct here otherwise it is nite-nite time for sure.

> you'll know/recognise when your body is relaxed enough (20 to 40 mins for
> newbies) when it 'begins' to feel a bit different! (hands feel puffy, body
> feels slightly wider/bigger etc) and that's all ya have to arrive at via
> the relaxing bit, you don't have to go any farther than that! as soon as
> your body feels only a BIT different you're now ready to go on to the next
> stage!

i remember feelin' this way once on psilocybin back in '70.

> this first stage passed, next: ya consciously remove 'all' attention from
> how your body feels altogether by focusing now on only what your closed
> eyes can see, state straight ahead at a distance of around 10 to 15 inches
> away from your face... the hypnagogia will begin to appear now, if it
> hasn't already started appearing...

eyes wide closed right ?

> stare straight ahead only, eventually images etc will also begin to appear
> more in your direct line of sight, these are the ones to go for so don't
> move your eyes around at all (if you move your eyes about the images will
> likely all disappear and you'll have to start over waiting for them...)

> you shouldn't be thinking/noticing your body at all by now, the images get
> clearer and clearer so when a really clear image shows up make an attempt
> to examine some of its finer details, this is the practice, and because
> looking at the finer details of any image is the very thing that finally
> beckons ya right into a WILD! this is usually immediately followed by:
> Yikes! Zing! D'OH! as ya bounce back out from the sudden jolt of being
> yanked into a WILD - no problem tho', just wait till the next image shows
> up and have another go straight away :)))

> and it's really no more complicated/complex than that! just a very simple
> progression!

good because i don't like complicated hoop hoppin'.

> ya 'consciously' relax your body, and then ya 'consciously' isolate
> hypnagogia to examine in detail, and then ya 'consciously' find yourself
> right in the most epic lucid dream ever!

> fortunately for you (and all dild-doers too as it goes) you already know
> perfectly well how to behave in a lucid dream so's not to get immediately
> booted out, so the typical learning curve for old dild-os is actually
> shorter...

well i hope to god (so to speak), at least i have some experience
under my belt.

> the current record (for an absolute beginner) is 11 days, so you should be
> quite able to beat that really, as all it takes is a consistently
> 'conscious' effort...

> everything ABOUT WILDing is the result of a - 'conscious' - effort

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsUpvFL_sGg

> ya gots to be a conscious mon! :)

> ya dig?

i digs mon
dig some of this too (while we are at it)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8DXhoIJ8cU

[slider]

oh no wrote heh...

>> ### - the 'whole thing' is an attempt to 'move away' from 'unconscious'
>> behaviour...
>
> i see that. (said the blind man) ha ha

### - what? oop's sorry, i'll 'feel' that again? (braille glitch)

>> and perforce this 'includes' consciously relaxing!
>
>> iow: the whole attempt commences with learning to 'consciously' relax!
>
>> its important to be (and remain) conscious throughout the relaxing
>> process
>> too!
>
> hey dave i think we have found the new nagual of dreaming eh?
> don Slider, you are at our service now aren't ya? lol!

### - always with the cc-jokes huh (cc=carbon copy)

>> this then puts ya in the perfect position to 'consciously' enter into
>> the
>> first stages of what we've been calling: sleep! (i don't care what
>> anyone
>> says/suggests; i really don't think we're actually asleep at the point
>> of
>> beginning to gaze at the hypnagogia...)
>
> i think you are correct here otherwise it is nite-nite time for sure.
>
>> you'll know/recognise when your body is relaxed enough (20 to 40 mins
>> for
>> newbies) when it 'begins' to feel a bit different! (hands feel puffy,
>> body
>> feels slightly wider/bigger etc) and that's all ya have to arrive at via
>> the relaxing bit, you don't have to go any farther than that! as soon as
>> your body feels only a BIT different you're now ready to go on to the
>> next
>> stage!
>
> i remember feelin' this way once on psilocybin back in '70.

### - i've had that on not only weed but lsd too + also correlates with
what i've been sayin' (and also said in the book... dave) re exploring the
same state of altered awareness that drugs produce 'without' the drugs!
and 'without' the typical distortions those drugs also produce as side
effects

(don't get me wrong some of those 'side-effects' are luvely maan! hehe...)

### - doesn't get much easier nor straightforward than this mate! :)

= no mo' messin' aboot playin' guessin' games pal! (said in a strongly
scottish caretaker willie accent heh)

>> ya 'consciously' relax your body, and then ya 'consciously' isolate
>> hypnagogia to examine in detail, and then ya 'consciously' find yourself
>> right in the most epic lucid dream ever!
>
>> fortunately for you (and all dild-doers too as it goes) you already know
>> perfectly well how to behave in a lucid dream so's not to get
>> immediately
>> booted out, so the typical learning curve for old dild-os is actually
>> shorter...
>
> well i hope to god (so to speak), at least i have some experience
> under my belt.

### - takes peeps quite a long time to learn to maintain being in the
dream state without it all ending too soon to do any real
exploring/mapping, but you already have all that well in-stock after years
of dildo-ing about hehehe...

now STOP dildo-ing aboot hah, just a little focusing on all 'this' for a
little while will reveal shit you can't hardly believe you're actually
doin' all by yourself hehehe

(true...)

[shitholio]

a very dangerous time to attempt this
is when one is bone ass tired. It is
too easy to fall asleep, better to wait
until one is in good shape when going to
sleep. I was so damn tired last night
and i wanted to give it a shot but as
usual i fell asleep and had crappy dreams
with no awareness.

[slider]

### - strike one! ;)

10 strikes to go to equal the current record holder hehehe...

(you at least had the 'intention' to try it last nite, and so it begins...)

so, would it break every rule in the book to maybe retire half an hour
earlier tonite?

to like maybe give yourself a fighting chance?

(plus don't listen to jeremy, 'his' only intention at this point is to see
you fail at this, just to spite ME! (ridiculous!) so am betting he can't
keep his gob shut let alone actually encourage ya! and as such is
virtually guaranteed so say something negative to ya aboot it...)

jeremy, for example previously wrote: "For you, DILD is easier, just as it
is for me."

NOT! - chris is NOT at ALL like you jeremy! so please butt-out!

chris WANTS to do this! so please let him be?

--------------

for jeremy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xDzVZcqtYI

"ooh ooh ooh oooh..." :)

[shitholio]

relax tiger, he wants to see me do it.
he's NOT competitive that way.
hell i want to see anyone do this.
i'm all for it. IF you can do it,
more power to ya.

[Jeremy H. Denisovan]

On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 2:30:08 PM UTC-8, shitholio wrote:
> > ### - the 'whole thing' is an attempt to 'move away' from 'unconscious'
> > behaviour...
>
> i see that. (said the blind man) ha ha
>
> > and perforce this 'includes' consciously relaxing!
>
> > iow: the whole attempt commences with learning to 'consciously' relax!
>
> > its important to be (and remain) conscious throughout the relaxing process
> > too!
>
> hey dave i think we have found the new nagual of dreaming eh?
> don Slider, you are at our service now aren't ya? lol!

Oh, he's already made it clear that he's well beyond any lousy
'nagual'. Hasn't he? But notice how he ignores the good points
I make (doesn't even answer direct questions half the time),
and nearly wets his pants if anyone starts talking about dreaming
outside the context of his precious WILD method.

He's so uptight now he's even accusing me of trying to
corrupt you, and has posted virtually the entirety of the
content of his dreaming method from his book. He must
be plenty worried. I keep telling him I think WILD is fine;
I just don't think it's as important as he does.

He just doesn't seem to believe ol' don Juan, who says:
"Each warrior has his own way of dreaming. Each way is different." :)

> > this then puts ya in the perfect position to 'consciously' enter into the
> > first stages of what we've been calling: sleep! (i don't care what anyone
> > says/suggests; i really don't think we're actually asleep at the point of
> > beginning to gaze at the hypnagogia...)

Yeah, truer words were never spoken than when you say "I don't care
what anyone says...". :)

> i think you are correct here otherwise it is nite-nite time for sure.

It's on the borderline between waking and sleeping. Wiki calls
it a "transitional state" or a "threshold consciousness".

I can get to the point of watching hypnagogia easily, even to the
point of having it turn into little 'eyelid movies' with fairly
clear and vividly detailed images. That's no problem for me,
but conditions have to be totally perfect before I can "leap into
a full dream state" from there.

[slider]

On Sun, 04 Feb 2018 20:44:16 -0000, Jeremy H. Denisovan
<david.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

> conditions have to be totally perfect before I can "leap into
> a full dream state" from there.

### - aww, never mind, even a genius like 'you' can't be good at
'everything' can they!

LOL :D

(am actually 'glad' ya can't WILD, last thing the world needs is shark
swimming around in the beginners pool hah!)

[slider]

On Sun, 04 Feb 2018 20:44:16 -0000, Jeremy H. Denisovan
<david.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

> He's so uptight now he's even accusing me of trying to
> corrupt you, and has posted virtually the entirety of the
> content of his dreaming method from his book.

### - ya didn't try to corrupt vinny either huh...

fortunately, he (and his thunder mountain) left you standing bub!

flew right over your head & left ya standing hah!

standing in a pile your own shit! lol :)

as for my book?

you can KEEP all your million dollar ideas!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhhOmFwp7tc

"i'm just giving it all away..."

:P :P :P

[Jeremy H. Denisovan]

On Sunday, February 4, 2018 at 1:23:19 PM UTC-8, slider wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Feb 2018 20:44:16 -0000, Jeremy H. Denisovan

> wrote:
>
> > He's so uptight now he's even accusing me of trying to
> > corrupt you, and has posted virtually the entirety of the
> > content of his dreaming method from his book.
>
> ### - ya didn't try to corrupt vinny either huh...

?? My most recent emails with Vini were last Summer.
A couple of years back we had lunch together one day as I
passed through Portland. Why on earth would you talk about him?
He thought you were a shithead last I heard.

[shitholio]

how about those Eagles ?
long shot came in.
a real good football game.
clean.

[Jeremy H. Denisovan]

We had decided not to watch the game this year, but I changed
my mind and recorded it, so I could speed through all the parts
I didn't want to watch. It was such a great game! :)
Just watched all the best parts...

[shitholio]

wild day on wally street. we'll see how
it goes again today. Headed for another
dive? Most likely.

not much luck with wild work last night
but late this morning good cracks at
lucidity. flying with friends and fooling
around. Someone who looked like Uma Thurman
was sitting next to me so i dripped 3 or 4
drops of water down her neck and the next
thing i knew she was leaning against me.
I told her five seconds of this and you'll
be just fine. And then i said to her that
i could laugh until my heart explodes.
Needless to say i felt so good i could have
practically cried in delight. so is dreaming.

[slider]

> wild day on wally street. we'll see how
> it goes again today. Headed for another
> dive? Most likely.
>
> not much luck with wild work last night

### - did you actually remember to 'try' last night or just fell asleep
again without even remembering to try?

if you tried (no matter how little) and failed then it's strike 2! :)

(doesn't matter if ya just forgot, habits of a lifetime to overcome and
all that)

ever have a nap in the afternoon at all? if remaining awake long enough to
try at night is the problem, then maybe naps might be your way to go to
get started, plus once started you can begin more to choose the times of
day (or night) you do 'em to suit you (e.g., have gotten to the point now
that i can close my eyes anytime, and like you in the bath be WILDing in
only 5 minutes...)

> but late this morning good cracks at
> lucidity. flying with friends and fooling
> around. Someone who looked like Uma Thurman
> was sitting next to me so i dripped 3 or 4
> drops of water down her neck and the next
> thing i knew she was leaning against me.
> I told her five seconds of this and you'll
> be just fine. And then i said to her that
> i could laugh until my heart explodes.
> Needless to say i felt so good i could have
> practically cried in delight. so is dreaming.

### - so that by now famous quote from you of: "Aw shucks, i hardly ever
shag anyone in my dreams these days..." - still applies?

(laughing) :D

[wilddild]

> ### - so that by now famous quote from you of: "Aw shucks, i hardly ever
> shag anyone in my dreams these days..." - still applies?

yes, it does. Where did you read that i shagged anyone
in that dream? She leaned against me, that's all.
There was no sex.

[slider]

### - oh well, you know, habits of a lifetime and all that lol :)))

[wilddild]

1000 point drop on the Dow today.
holy shit, i had some money yesterday,
what do i have today? son of a bitch.
oh hell it'll come back, just relax.

[wilddild]

this could be about our very own dave & brian yes?


Always, no, sometimes think it's me
But you know I know when it's a dream
I think, er, no, I mean, er, yes, but it's all wrong
That is I think I disagree

[Jeremy H. Denisovan]

No one I think is in my tree. :)

[wilddild]

what's the 411 on chia seeds?
anyone ever do these ?
yeah it's the same stuff that
goes on a chia pet. grows in
southern mexico.

[wilddild]

slider it looks like you are a long
time meditator. did you ever have
successes with meditation that produced
other things? perhaps other psychic items?
you must have learned to relax quite well
from doing meditation. it may be a huge
leap for beginners in wild to jump quickly
to the relaxed state. maybe i need to
practice meditation again for a period of
time and see if i can get to a relaxed
state more easily. i'm noticing it has
been close to two years since i first read
your book. Time flies when you're sleeping. :)

[slider]

### - did some meditation in my youth (not 'that' much) until a certain
state of mind resulted - i.e., the 'ideal' goal of meditation is to
practice every day until the resulting state of mind from any session (a
kinda high feeling) becomes 24/7 (or permanent), and while i can't claim
to have succeeded that much with it, it (and the dude i was learning from)
certainly did eventually affect my total outlook generally and so i
moved-on and didn't bother with it again, and that was 40 years ago!

so in answer to your question: no, you *don't* (imo) need to learn all
that first in order to be able to relax enough.

if you've never learned to relax on purpose before, then the exercises
i've suggested are more than enough for anyone to quickly learn (a week
tops!) as a springboard... (one of the few things jeremy agreed upon was
that the suggested method (for relaxing) was effective, so he must have
tried it...)

iow: do it every night for a week and you're bound to succeed in reaching
that bodily state described (body feels kinda slightly
puffy/expanded/enlarged whatever) and that's as far as anyone would ever
need to go with it... at that point ya switch to focusing on only what the
eyes can see, totally ignoring the body altogether after that...

after first getting comfortable enough, it's important NOT to move your
body even one iota after that while doing the breathing exercise; it's
this keeping-still that quickly brings the feeling of floating/expanding
etc...

if you seem to not be able to experience this sensation, then 20/30
minutes of trying should be enough anyway to then switch to focusing on
only what your eyes can see etc, you'll know when you're relaxed enough
(without that sensation) when your breathing naturally becomes more
shallow via belly breaths, so that's the time to switch up to the eyes
only part anyway...

if you're not getting any hypnagogia at that point, then try
lengthening/shortening your focal distance (have suggested between 10 to
fifteen inches away from your face so try that starting at around 10
inches for a few minutes and then lengthen it to 12 inches, then 15
inches, etc etc, noting at what distance they begin to appear for you
personally...) plus don't move your eye about while looking at them, just
stare straight ahead until images appear in your line of sight to examine

after that it's only a matter of waiting until the images become
noticeably sharp enough to gaze at their finer detail and then you'll
either fall fast asleep while doing this or get pulled into a WILD

so describe in detail what happens so far when you try to relax, how does
it go for you?

how far do you get/what happens?

[wilddild]

> so describe in detail what happens so far when you try to relax, how does
> it go for you?
>
> how far do you get/what happens?

seems like everything just goes dark.
i can relax, feel at ease but not much
goes on. I just patiently wait for the
lights to come on (so to speak), you know
waiting for the movie to begin. I guess
eventually i doze off to sleep land. However
when and if i wake up in the night i do another
round of this relaxing and focusing quietly.
Not much results, what the hell is wrong with me?

[slider]

the man with the iron claw wrote... ;)

### - you're screwed LOL :)))

nah seriously, so no hypnagogia eh?

ok, plus can understand now why you inquired about meditation too, seein'
as when you tried to meditate you saw some hypnagogia (a green door one
time and then a hole letting you see the sky etc etc...)

reminds too of a dude on fb who's seriously meditated for more than 30
years and who's even written books on the subject of awareness &
enlightenment, who claimed his problem was with his mind that had become
so trained via meditation to utterly destroy all illusions (his own words)
thus, when, like you he tried to see hypnagogia, his mind wouldn't allow
it and so all he ever saw was darkness... his mind, he claimed, was now
too disciplined to ever allow it (curious problem!)

however, being the disciplined person he is, he persisted determined to
succeed and started getting some strange unusual effects... for instance,
at one point he began to see what he called his 'imagination' of a vague
scene with himself in it! no hypnagogia as such before that or leading up
to it, just some scene that seemed quite far away, oddly enough starring
himself wandering around in it too... none of us knew wtf he was talking
about really heh, but he apparently was getting something like this fairly
regularly... eventually, one day he said he was kinda examining these
'scenes' (all of which appeared to be kinda far away/too at arms length to
access) when he said he experienced a feeling of 'backing-up some' (as
though he drew back a bit?) and then all the hypnagogia appeared in 'all
their glory' (again his worlds) which i assumed he meant in greater detail
and vivid colour as opposed to looking more wishy-washy and seen as though
from a distance...

he'd been trying to MAKE it happen! and perhaps that was the problem?

ya have to... let go?

he'd been trying too hard!

after that, all he had to do was to get to the imagination-movies kinda
thing, deliberately back-up some, and bingo! hypnagogia like never before!
vivid and sharp enough to access in the usual manner!

ultimately, i accredited him with perhaps having found another 'route'
into WILDing, although i dunno if that's actually true and that all it was
is that he was somehow deliberately holding himself in the wrong place to
ever get to see any decent stuff... his cultivated 'grip' on reality was
too strong to ever allow it?

suggestion: get to the place where you felt relaxed & comfy enough, and
then try to visualise/remember that green door and/or that hole in the
ceiling that let you see through to the sky that time... and because
whatever you 'thought' they were, they were actually only vivid hypnagogia!

that merely by 'wanting' to repeat the experience (of seeing that green
door/sky etc) you may then be able to place yourself more correctly (in
awareness) to see more of it...

perhaps even just remembering your first inadvertent WILD on here that
time (no seeming transition phase involved, you were suddenly just in one
looking around!) and/or merely by, for example, remembering your vivid
bath-time experience more recently, you'll get-over whatever it is that's
been delaying you...

having done it several times now you know you 'can' WILD no problem! so
that's not the prob, plus maybe it's something to do with having learned
to dild first? (that dude had also been dilding previously on occasion
too!) who knows! dildo-rehab may indeed have to become a reality LOL, they
spoils ya for life mate! (kinda thing...) in truth beginners have far less
problems with this! :)

oddly enough, you report (above) going into sleep without seeing ANY
hypnagogia too? like your mind filters them completely out (or even just
the memory of them) even though ya HAVE to actually see some or ya
wouldn't be able to even GO to sleep at all!

best suggestion really, is to wait until you 'start' to actually feel a
'little' sleepy and look for some hypnagogia then... remembering having
seen them before (as in that green door/sky etc) even to deliberately
visualising them in order to start/kick them off!

you'll have to play around with this somewhat, trying different things to
alter (slightly) the place you keep otherwise ending up in with that
rather strong mind of yours...

ya gots to LET GO bud! :)

LET THE FUCK GO! (laffing...)

and seein' as ya don't really 'know' how you're hangin' on exactly; you'll
have to experiment a bit once you're relaxed enough, until it yields up
the goodies!

personally, i don't think you're relaxing enough/properly etc?

you're not getting to the point where your bod feels
strange/inflated/larger whatever?

poor old chris; hypnagogia-less in good 'ole cali-forn-i-A? (grinz...)

ok... for real + all laffing aside... try the second method for relaxing
then yeah?

start atcha feet and work up block by block (feet, then ankles to knees,
knees to hips, hips to shoulders, shoulders to the top of your head - 5
blocks - slowly doing the long breath out as you LET GO! (smile) all the
tension in those areas one at a time! paying particular attention to
around the shoulders, neck & head area doing it several times, letting any
residue muscle tension fall away down into your pillow, bed and floor with
a mild sensation every time of descending in an elevator AS you breath
out...

that should do it alright heh... plus, by the time ya reach your neck &
head area, you should already be noticing/feeling that slightly expanded
feeling in your body (i aways feel/notice it first in my forearms and
hands for some reason...)

when you've worked your way through all 5 blocks (am only suggesting 5,
you could make it more/less if ya want) do one last block as the whole
body altogether... as you breath slowly in you can feel your body tense up
slightly, hold it for a few moments and let it slowly out, your whole body
falling as you let all/any tension go down through the bed and down into
the floor... then letting it breath how it wants for a while...

IF ya DON'T feel slightly different (in your body) by then, then there's
summat wrong with ya!

(really laffing hehehe...)

after doing all that 'relaxing' (heh) it's prolly safe to assume you're
now IN the right place, in which case, if there's no hypnagogia, calling
up the 'memory' of having seen some before should be enough to getcher
rolling heh...

thinks am gonna can ya 'the iron claw' from now on k? hahaha

has a grip on reality like iron!

so let the fuck GO will ya?? :)

(that's just my pulling your pisser is all btw, you can achieve it all by
relaxing more correctly, and feeling slightly differently in the bod while
doing it is the sure sign of it...)

you said you felt 'relaxed' in that bath... remember?

you can do it; you've just never really relaxed quite so 'deliberately'
before!

let me know what happens ok? plus good luck!

teething problems! :)

[wilddild]

i think i mentioned years ago maybe about
how easy it was for me to apprehend auditory
conversations before anything visual came
into play. It was a snap to do that. It
just happened whenever i relaxed enough.
But it never developed into anything visual.
i would pull myself out of it like waking
up and it would stop. I thought i was
catching cell phone conversations or something.
I never knew what they were about. Do you
get auditory stuff when your visions come around?
Or is it just a cinema show ?

[slider]

### - well maybe that's how you've been doing it then?

letting audio sounds rather than images pull ya into ordinary sleep?

never gets audio here until the WILD begins, instead get vague shapes
followed by vague images (one turned into an incredibly clear face the
other day and startled me...) then a scene of sorts, looked closely at a
tree's branches and was pulled straight in!

hearing sounds is defo indicating an altered state tho, so maybe you could
use that either to WILD directly (dunno if that'd work...) or just using
audio to get to the place where images can also then be seen and then go
from there...

lots of peeps have difficulty getting to see any hypnagogia at first, and
it's always been something to do with either not being relaxed enough (as
in not feeling any body changes) and/or something to do with how they hold
their eyes wrongly by focusing too close making the eyes ache and jump
about, or chasing after any patterns/images with their eyes, something
which dispels the images altogether and then they have to start over...)

i still bet on the second method of relaxing changing it for you, you need
to go just a little farther out to where the images appear/can be viewed,
so go all-out for getting completely relaxed (which you'll know you've
reached by then experiencing some bodily sensations) + later it'll prolly
all settle down to something less extreme anyway...

just be determined to 'break through' the impasse and somehow you'll
'make' it happen

i.e., as you're first laying there be determined just before you start
(intend it as jer would say heh:) and then start the process and see what
happens...

:)

[wilddild]

what no one knows anything about
chia seeds? come on now, gotta
be one dude out there who knows?

[slider]

>> what's the 411 on chia seeds?
>> anyone ever do these ?
>> yeah it's the same stuff that
>> goes on a chia pet. grows in
>> southern mexico.
>
> what no one knows anything about
> chia seeds? come on now, gotta
> be one dude out there who knows?

### - never heard of 'em till now heh...

can apparently do anything ya like with them, except smoke 'em?

so not interested! lol ;)

https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=8euBWvPYLoXEgAaQlqiICQ&q=chia+seeds&oq=chia+seeds&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i131k1j0l3j0i131k1j0l5.7743.7743.0.9719.1.1.0.0.0.0.362.362.3-1.1.0....0...1c..64.psy-ab..0.1.361....0.gZeVuaSkAzE

[wilddild]

i just thought maybe someone with some
knowledge here could speak on this topic.

[slider]

> i just thought maybe someone with some
> knowledge here could speak on this topic.

### - ya don't know 'anything' about chia seeds?? sheesh!

well let me tell ya... it all goes back to a time when peeps
were still all living in caves and hunting/gathering to stay
alive in the face of enormous odds against living beyond the age
of only 14... and then, one cloudy day, a single drop of rain fell onto
a bunch of plants that were all dying of thirst (did i mention in
those times there was a terrible drought for 10,000 years and
everything was dying? well there was, so back to the story...)
and just because of that single drop of water, one of those plants, in
it's last dying gasp, produced a tiny mutant seed that remained dormant
in the ground for another 20,000 years before the drought ended and
everything all came back to life again and humans were able to come
out of our caves and eat the only things that still existed to eat; the
humble chia seed, which people then honoured & worshiped from then on as
their only saviour.

and that's why god created dna-manipulation & train wrecks...

now go in peace & spread the word oh enlightened one ;)

[wilddild]

> and that's why god created dna-manipulation & train wrecks...

> now go in peace & spread the word oh enlightened one ;)

i hear they up your serotonin level and produce melatonin.
Now as a dreamer this could be helpful.
OR i could make a paste and smear it all
over my Donald Trump statue i got for Xmas last year.
Trumpy with green hair, perfect huh ?

[slider]

>> and that's why god created dna-manipulation & train wrecks...
>
>> now go in peace & spread the word oh enlightened one ;)
>
> i hear they up your serotonin level and produce melatonin.
> Now as a dreamer this could be helpful.

### - ONLY to dild dreamers! and even that's controversial!

WILDs make ALL add-on crap like that: completely redundant!

unless, that is, ya don't mind 'remaining' a victim ALL yer life? ;)

> OR i could make a paste and smear it all
> over my Donald Trump

### - lol don't do that! no matter HOW fed up ya gets? :)

besides, there's very good lubes available on amazon for shit
like that... just ask jeremy! :D

[imagenoguns]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC-IsCryRlE

slider this is alan watts talking in this video
above. This is the exact way to lucid dreaming
be it wild or dild. I think in the beginning
perhaps you tried a little too hard with the dild.
I think i myself have probably tried a little too
hard with the wild. I am working too hard to
relax so i am kind of defeating myself with the
effort. I have to find the balance between doing
and not doing. watch the video, this guy knows
a thing or two.

[slider]

### - so how about those elusive hypnagogia, seen any yet? :)

was gazing earlier today in order to catch them commencing, to catch their
first appearance and how it all then progressed to shapes & images...

here's what happened:

had being awake nearly all night anyway as any usual cycles/patterns of
sleeping & being awake etc have literally all gone out the window these
days to be replaced by naps at just about any old time of the day/night...
so anyway, around 11am this morning, i noticed a certain weariness/fatigue
that is indicative of an impending nap-time should i wish to take it (i
don't always take it when offered + often wait till the next one if
there's anything/something else to do...) but accepted the offer with the
express purpose of hypnagogia watching to see how it all starts up &
unfolds etc...

having no official bed-room per se anymore, i darkened the front room and
lay down on the sofa making myself comfortable by lying on my left side
facing the wall... it's quite cold in my place as these are some of the
oldest buildings in the lambeth borough (over 100 years old) with no
central heating as such and rather tall ceilings in a faux-georgian style,
so a good duvet is required in the winter and which i wrapped myself
with...

almost straight away there were light hypnagogia effects similar, perhaps,
to a largish blob of yellowish light right in the center of my vision
covering maybe 20/30 percent of the visible field, a very light yellowish
blob marked by an even lighter/very-faint crosshatch pattern composed of
vertical & horizontal lines that were only just barely discernible...

having been through this many times by now, i adjusted my focus
accordingly to stare right at the very center of this yellowish blob and
then relaxed the focus slightly so as to be kinda staring straight through
it as though staring off into the distance, the yellowish blob appearing
to then be existing somewhere in the middle of this between my face and
said horizon... this being my usual focus whenever commencing; ya let the
eyes go and stare out into the distance while observing any patterns of
light (or whatever) that then seem to appear maybe 10 or 15 inches away
from my face as i started in on the breathing exercise...

by now, and after all that practice, it never takes long to begin feeling
that slightly expanded sensation in my arms, hands and knees (after about
10 minutes only) indicative of having begun to move into a slightly
altered state of awareness... at which point, i stopped all that
deliberate breathing and switched to staring exclusively at the
hypnagogia, which by now had changed into a darker space with what looked
like a wisp of whitish-grey cloud that started as a small distant point
that then slightly expanded by curving slightly towards me, creating the
effect of it coming closer to me as it grew in size until it looked about
the size of a penny, which then halted there for a moment before
disappearing altogether and then starting all over again from that same
distant point, and it did this many times...

as i tried to examine it without interfering with it any + while still
staring straight ahead, it continued into other similar patterns that all
appeared to commence from a distance and draw closer before disappearing
and starting over... this pulsing of lights & then shapes going from vague
to clearer, being something am quite familiar with by now so i just let it
continue at its own pace + noting any changes to these patterns as they
occurred... another 10 minutes of this and it was beginning to get quite
lively but still only with blobs and strips of various coloured lights,
which by now was taking upwards of 40/50% of the visual field surrounded
by darkness... and then as i watched, an incredibly faint profile of
someone's face appeared amongst this mass wearing eye glasses! being not
quite dead center to my direct line of sight, i watched this image as it
then floated off to one side seemingly turning slightly as it went,
cool... plus, from focusing on it, the other hypnagogia surrounding it
also all became noticeably more vivid and striking, although that was the
only actual image so far...

this head kept moving slowly away until it disappeared altogether
stage-left (i didn't follow it with my eyes btw, but could see it moving
away until it was gone...) still staring/gazing straight ahead, the
patterns of light and blobs in my field of vision continued appearing &
disappearing albeit much more clearly discernible than before, whereon a
changing vague geometric whitish shape appeared right in my line of sight,
small rectangular blocks (it was almost like looking at tiny skyscrapers
as seen from a great height appearing within it at a slight angle it as i
looked at it, the more i looked the clearer it became until, at one point,
i could quite clearly see and distinguish these tiny skyscraper shapes,
some of which were higher/lower than others, the whole thing no bigger
than a small whitish plate maybe only 5 or 6 inches across, the more i
examined it the clearer the details of it became, and as i stared with
interest at it and its growing detail, i was suddenly pulled from where i
was over a period of maybe 3 seconds tops right into the image itself...
and i was WILDing!

Yikes! Zing! D'oh already?? nope hehehe... just the zing and the distinct
sensation of movement as i zoomed-in on this thing only to then find
myself in an incredibly vivid WILD!

the whole process from first laying down, doing a bit of relaxing until my
arms (mainly) lost their more usual dimensions, to seeing that faint face,
to seeing that geometric shape, to being yanked right into it; taking only
(or seeming to take 'coz i didn't actually time it) around 20/25 minutes
total... tada!

no fuss no bother but the hypnagogia were there right from the start,
albeit initially only a large yellowish blob with a vague crosshatch
pattern in parts of it, this yellowish light i put down to residual light
in my eyes after lowering the ambient light in the room; a bit like maybe
looking at a monitor screen for a few moments and then scrunching up your
eyes and noting the various blobs and streaks of light remaining there
until they fade...

that in truth, 'whenever' i close my eyes there's always 'some' patterns
and streaks right there to begin playing with? and it's THESE patterns and
streaks that develop in various, often unpredictable, ways!

a completely dark blank field isn't available! there's always 'something'
there to begin with??

perhaps then chris you've been looking in the wrong place? or rather,
you're kinda expecting something far more dramatic to start happening
before you can look at it?

no, it's these very faint lights and streaks of colour that you can see
right now if you tightly scrunch up your eyes while reading this? hold
them scrunched up like that for a few moments and note how other patterns
then begin to develop within these initial brightnesses (e.g., when i do
this now while typing, there's a big + fairly bright navy-blue blob with
yellowish lights around and through it as the whole thing turns into what
looks like a black and yellowish speckled background?

and it's THIS shit that shapes then come/emerge out of!

keep staring/gazing at it and it changes! un-scrunch the eyes at this
point but still keeping them closed and a lot of it vanishes for sure, but
not ALL of it? it's still all there albeit much fainter now?

and it's by playing around with all this that it all becomes much clearer
and then sharper until even vague images can be discerned amongst it! a
bit like seeing/making shapes outta clouds?

or it's a bit like looking at the white-noise effect on an untuned tv
screen, all those moving dots and blips, if ya stare at them for a while,
then begin to take on shapes and whirls that appear to move around the
screen if you let your eyes follow them? you don't invent these
patterns/shapes, they just begin to appear after a while...

(am gonna watch that vid now & report back...)

anyway, let me know how ya's get on with it ok? :)

[imagenoguns]

> ### - so how about those elusive hypnagogia, seen any yet? :)

i see fragments of dreams late in the morning, and i'm not asleep.
soon as i notice it i wake up. There is something beginning to
happen. Can't take anything to the bank yet, hanging on.

> was gazing earlier today in order to catch them commencing, to catch their
> first appearance and how it all then progressed to shapes & images...

> here's what happened:

> had being awake nearly all night anyway as any usual cycles/patterns of
> sleeping & being awake etc have literally all gone out the window these
> days to be replaced by naps at just about any old time of the day/night...
> so anyway, around 11am this morning, i noticed a certain weariness/fatigue
> that is indicative of an impending nap-time should i wish to take it (i
> don't always take it when offered + often wait till the next one if
> there's anything/something else to do...) but accepted the offer with the
> express purpose of hypnagogia watching to see how it all starts up &
> unfolds etc...

> having no official bed-room per se anymore, i darkened the front room and
> lay down on the sofa making myself comfortable by lying on my left side
> facing the wall...

i have good results from the right side. I guess i'm conservative? ha ha

> it's quite cold in my place as these are some of the
> oldest buildings in the lambeth borough (over 100 years old) with no
> central heating as such and rather tall ceilings in a faux-georgian style,
> so a good duvet is required in the winter and which i wrapped myself
> with...

we sleep with a duvet, that son of a bitch gets hot and stays hot.

you've definitely got an area of play there happening.

see now right there you got something up and happening before you even
start. you are at a place already. This is interesting.

> albeit initially only a large yellowish blob with a vague crosshatch
> pattern in parts of it, this yellowish light i put down to residual light
> in my eyes after lowering the ambient light in the room; a bit like maybe
> looking at a monitor screen for a few moments and then scrunching up your
> eyes and noting the various blobs and streaks of light remaining there
> until they fade...

> that in truth, 'whenever' i close my eyes there's always 'some' patterns
> and streaks right there to begin playing with? and it's THESE patterns and
> streaks that develop in various, often unpredictable, ways!

dude you have a "leg up" on this practice before you even start.
Perhaps your AP shifted years ago and NEVER moved back?

> a completely dark blank field isn't available! there's always 'something'
> there to begin with??

you are the verge before you start, born sorcerer it looks like.

> perhaps then chris you've been looking in the wrong place? or rather,
> you're kinda expecting something far more dramatic to start happening
> before you can look at it?

no man, i'll take whatever comes my way. I've seen stuff before, it
is very hard to miss.

> no, it's these very faint lights and streaks of colour that you can see
> right now if you tightly scrunch up your eyes while reading this? hold
> them scrunched up like that for a few moments and note how other patterns
> then begin to develop within these initial brightnesses (e.g., when i do
> this now while typing, there's a big + fairly bright navy-blue blob with
> yellowish lights around and through it as the whole thing turns into what
> looks like a black and yellowish speckled background?

i don't see anything but darkness. Nothing happening here.

> and it's THIS shit that shapes then come/emerge out of!

i don't doubt that.

> keep staring/gazing at it and it changes! un-scrunch the eyes at this
> point but still keeping them closed and a lot of it vanishes for sure, but
> not ALL of it? it's still all there albeit much fainter now?

> and it's by playing around with all this that it all becomes much clearer
> and then sharper until even vague images can be discerned amongst it! a
> bit like seeing/making shapes outta clouds?

> or it's a bit like looking at the white-noise effect on an untuned tv
> screen, all those moving dots and blips, if ya stare at them for a while,
> then begin to take on shapes and whirls that appear to move around the
> screen if you let your eyes follow them? you don't invent these
> patterns/shapes, they just begin to appear after a while...

Yeah you just let it come on its on, you don't try to fuck with it.

> (am gonna watch that vid now & report back...)

> anyway, let me know how ya's get on with it ok? :)

i want to see if you catch Watt's drift there in the video.
Yes, maybe, no ?

[slider]

### - have always liked alan watts... who's telling us to eliminate
duality by walking in the middle of things (be here now) instead of always
dwelling in (and on) the extremes as is normally the case, then giving us
endless examples of this 'blending of the opposites' until they kinda
cancel each other out... that the 'seeker & the sought' have to thus
become one lest we remain trapped on a merry-go-round of our own making...

that if, for example, you're looking for happiness, then what you're
really affirming by this act of 'looking' is that you're actually unhappy,
that by definition actually 'being happy' is thus the 'absence' of looking
for happiness! and consequently, that living in the 'now' is thus the
solution to being caught up in the false duality of past and future!
cool...

but where does that leave us when it comes to lucid dreaming? how do we
blend the 'unconscious' act of dilding with the far more 'conscious' +
'deliberate' act of WILDing?

possibly by only having 'both' options up & running?

that dilding is always gonna remain an ostensibly 'unconscious' act
because ya can't go directly to it! WILDs being the complete opposite of
that because ya *can't* go unconsciously to them! (well ya can, but then
it's not really recognised as WILDing per se and gets called something
else, such as false awakenings or night terrors...)

that ya *can't* just let WILDs happen because to WILD is the act of lucid
dreaming deliberately! (i can deliberately send myself into a WILD but
can't deliberately send myself into a dild?)

and if those 2 are the opposites of it, what then is the NOW of lucid
dreaming?? :)

that in that sense, lucid dreaming per se is the NOW of being awake &
asleep?

asleep - NOW - awake!

this 'lucid dreaming' being something which can be accomplished in one of
2 ways: you can go into it arseways/backwards via dilds and thus have no
control over doing/initiating it, or more deliberately via WILDs wherein
everything about it is always a strictly conscious act!

personally, i'd have to consider WILDing to be the NOW of lucid dreaming
(the not doing of dilding? heh...) plus there's this very strange place ya
eventually get to with WILDing which i've termed the 'midway point' - a
place (in awareness) where lucid dreaming and waking up in the daily world
become equal options! (genuinely weird!)

problem is you guys haven't gotten to this midway point yet so we can't
really discuss it except perhaps hypothetically? i.e., it seems to be a
completely black void wherein one has no perceivable body or substance,
one is and remains just a thought, an 'idea' of self? to dream or not to
dream becoming a genuine option from such a position, as in indeed is that
of waking up for real in the daily world or not (to wake or not to wake
being/becoming another question from that midway pov!)

plus i don't think alan watts can really help us here?

that IF there's such a thing as a NOW to lucid dreaming, then to discover
it ya probably needs to have BOTH options (both dilding AND wilding) up &
running?

i still, however, say/suggest that any answers to all this will only
eventually come/derive from WILDing rather than dilding, if only from the
increased levels of lucidity (or rather: sobriety) involved?

on another note: i find it hard to accept that you don't (or can't) see
ANY effects from scrunching up your eyes for a few moments? that all you
can ever see is a completely black space with no ghostly/vague light show
of some description?? (e.g., while staring at my lappy's monitor in a
darkened room while typing this, if i tightly scrunch up my eyes right now
the first thing i can see is a large whitish blob, kinda oval in nature,
that is the remnant light of my monitor screen? and if i keep them tightly
scrunched up and keep looking the white fades and blue blobs and streaks
begin to appear, the tighter i scrunch them the more effects (of light &
dark) that begin to appear?

e.g., look at your screen for a few seconds, stare right at it, then
scrunch up your eyes and keep them closed... don't tell me you can't see
blobs of white (and other colours too) for a few moments?

for a little while i can even see blocks/lines of text and the approximate
paragraph spaces in between? (can't read the actual text itself, but ya
can still tell it's text)

here's a little childhood trick i learned one time that's fairly
interesting (if you're a kid that is heh, although it's still kinda
interesting...) you need a fairly bright light for this (a 60watt
incandescent bulb for example) set in a side/table lamp...

at night turn out all the lights in the room except this side lamp, you
know the type, small with a lampshade and an on/off switch just below the
bulb... place your hand on the switch while fixedly staring at the back of
that same hand, do it for a solid 10 or more seconds and then switch off
the bulb and quickly remove your hand, all the while rigidly still staring
in the direction of where your hand last was around the lamp, don't move
your eyes at all and keep staring straight ahead at that same spot, and
after a few moments of blackness a ghostly hand will then appear before
your very eyes to startle & amaze you! (good trick!)

if you move your eyes at all when staring at that ghostly hand it
disappears and ya have to start over, but if you can keep your eyes (and
focus) fixed the effect actually lasts for quite a while/several seconds
hehehe...

anyway, even after the hand fades but you keep staring, you can still see
some blobs of light and shit gradually fading away, the forms have gone
(your hand holding the lamp) but blobs of light remain for quite a while
afterwards, no?

the only hard bit is keeping your eyes fixed in one place after turning
out the lamp (might take a few shots to get it right...) but it works
every time :)

a ghostly greenish hand that appears/emerges outta the darkness and makes
ya jump because you know your own hand isn't there anymore hehehe :)

happy Halloween! :)

[slider]

>> ### - so how about those elusive hypnagogia, seen any yet? :)
>
> i see fragments of dreams late in the morning, and i'm not asleep.
> soon as i notice it i wake up. There is something beginning to
> happen. Can't take anything to the bank yet, hanging on.

### - fragments of dreams (actual images) i would consider dramatic effects

>
>> was gazing earlier today in order to catch them commencing, to catch
>> their
>> first appearance and how it all then progressed to shapes & images...
>
>> here's what happened:
>
>> had being awake nearly all night anyway as any usual cycles/patterns of
>> sleeping & being awake etc have literally all gone out the window these
>> days to be replaced by naps at just about any old time of the
>> day/night...
>> so anyway, around 11am this morning, i noticed a certain
>> weariness/fatigue
>> that is indicative of an impending nap-time should i wish to take it (i
>> don't always take it when offered + often wait till the next one if
>> there's anything/something else to do...) but accepted the offer with
>> the
>> express purpose of hypnagogia watching to see how it all starts up &
>> unfolds etc...
>
>> having no official bed-room per se anymore, i darkened the front room
>> and
>> lay down on the sofa making myself comfortable by lying on my left side
>> facing the wall...
>
> i have good results from the right side. I guess i'm conservative? ha
> ha

### - i get loud buzzing vibrations etc on the right side, quite
disturbing really, throws ya around and shit but am kinda getting used to
it/learning to just ride with it, feels like you've stopped breathing, so
maybe even dying haha, very hard not to gulp for air at that point as you
begin to swell up and burst, whereon the act of gulping/breathing stops
the vibrations and ya have to start over... stick with it however (so what
if i die! heh) and ya end up in a WILD still buzzing and being thrown
around until that fades and you're just WILDing, why? i dunno :)

>> no fuss no bother but the hypnagogia were there right from the start,
>
> see now right there you got something up and happening before you even
> start. you are at a place already. This is interesting.

### - when was the last time ya stayed up all night and didn't sleep till
the next night? didn't you notice any mild visual effects?

>
>> albeit initially only a large yellowish blob with a vague crosshatch
>> pattern in parts of it, this yellowish light i put down to residual
>> light
>> in my eyes after lowering the ambient light in the room; a bit like
>> maybe
>> looking at a monitor screen for a few moments and then scrunching up
>> your
>> eyes and noting the various blobs and streaks of light remaining there
>> until they fade...
>
>> that in truth, 'whenever' i close my eyes there's always 'some' patterns
>> and streaks right there to begin playing with? and it's THESE patterns
>> and
>> streaks that develop in various, often unpredictable, ways!
>
> dude you have a "leg up" on this practice before you even start.
> Perhaps your AP shifted years ago and NEVER moved back?

### - or maybe am just generally sleep deprived heh :)

>
>> a completely dark blank field isn't available! there's always
>> 'something'
>> there to begin with??
>
> you are the verge before you start, born sorcerer it looks like.

### - oh fuck off! (laughing...) like everyone else i was a born asshole!
(heh) but then ya tend to learn quite a few things over 60 years or so
innit? ;)

>
>> perhaps then chris you've been looking in the wrong place? or rather,
>> you're kinda expecting something far more dramatic to start happening
>> before you can look at it?
>
> no man, i'll take whatever comes my way. I've seen stuff before, it
> is very hard to miss.

### - some details please? (i remember the green door & a hole in the roof
ones) gimmie some more to work with...

>
>> no, it's these very faint lights and streaks of colour that you can see
>> right now if you tightly scrunch up your eyes while reading this? hold
>> them scrunched up like that for a few moments and note how other
>> patterns
>> then begin to develop within these initial brightnesses (e.g., when i do
>> this now while typing, there's a big + fairly bright navy-blue blob with
>> yellowish lights around and through it as the whole thing turns into
>> what
>> looks like a black and yellowish speckled background?
>
> i don't see anything but darkness. Nothing happening here.

### - then you ain't doin' it right! heh j/k + see my other post...

[imaginenoguns]

> happy Halloween! :)

exactly. you're just playin' with your self
i mean your eyes.

[imaginenoguns]

> ### - fragments of dreams (actual images) i would consider dramatic effects

they not that unusual, very much like a regular dream but i think
i am still awake when they appear.

> ### - when was the last time ya stayed up all night and didn't sleep till
> the next night? didn't you notice any mild visual effects?

been a very long time since i have done that. i usually crap out and
fall asleep when i try to stay up all night.

> ### - or maybe am just generally sleep deprived heh :)

> ### - oh fuck off! (laughing...) like everyone else i was a born asshole!
> (heh) but then ya tend to learn quite a few things over 60 years or so
> innit? ;)

you're younger than that now.

> ### - some details please? (i remember the green door & a hole in the roof
> ones) gimmie some more to work with...

i will when they appear, i'm not holding out on ya.

> ### - then you ain't doin' it right! heh j/k + see my other post...

no doubt i'm doing something stupid. i knew that relaxation hurdle
was gonna be a son of a bitch. but i got the hot tub to help me
relax. sort of like how john lilly had his salt water tank thingys.

[slider]

> no doubt i'm doing something stupid. i knew that relaxation hurdle
> was gonna be a son of a bitch. but i got the hot tub to help me
> relax. sort of like how john lilly had his salt water tank thingys.

### - it's only supposed to be a lite state of relaxation?

e.g., feeling just a little sleepy is/has just about the same effect +
that's all that you're really aiming for, only deliberately...

the back of my neck & shoulders seems to be the place where most of the
residual tension is, the feeling of the body expanding (arms & hands
first) usually kicking in when i start in on those areas particularly...

geeze you're apparently locked down tighter than a gnats foreskin, have ya
ever considered using power plants to loosen it all up a bit? (j/k :)))
hahaha

[imaginenoguns]

> geeze you're apparently locked down tighter than a gnats foreskin, have ya
> ever considered using power plants to loosen it all up a bit? (j/k :)))
> hahaha

yeah i did one time back in '70. I saw energy for a week afterwards.
loosy alright, changed forever i suppose. lucky me.

[slider]

loosy in the sky wrote...

### - so ya turned on, tuned in, but didn't quite drop out then?

well, maybe just a little bit then huh :)

did that several times in all back in the day + had flashbacks for years
afterwards lol

and was defo looser in my socket after that hah! (could be anywhere doing
anything, and was then suddenly 7+ feet tall for a little while 'and'
became long-sighted while it (the flashback) lasted, which was damn
disconcerting to say the least! hehehe...)

not overreacting to it was the key to taming it eventually + had some
pretty far out experiences from it, came to enjoy it eventually, even to
finding ways (often without drugs) to trigger it off sometimes

fancy having a different kinda day out + view of the world sometimes?
cultivate flashbacks and wander around london feeling for all the world
like a 7ft tall martian for a few hours occasionally heh...

and take/make notes ;)

[imaginenoguns]

this is for EL Ron Jeremy
your field notes finally came in.
someone got ahold of shorty's stuff.
but again it proves absolutely nothing.
there's only one place they got these
from IF they are legit. And that would
mean they leaked them on purpose.
Fuck they never give up do they? lol!
check it out at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8jqPxUuYq0

[Jeremy H. Denisovan]

This isn't a mystery. Those people are being deceptive, though.
Anyone who has paid attention all along knows that Castaneda
did once reveal a very small portion of so-called 'field notes'.

Upon request, CC sent 12 pages of Spanish 'notes' to Gordon Wasson -
and surprise, surprise, these people are indeed displaying copies
of 12 pages of Spanish notes (refusing to reveal their source).

Below are a few of my comments about the 'notes' provided to Wasson,
comments I made on Sustained Reaction over 10 years ago:

"It is most significant that the 12 pages Castaneda sent to Wasson
were admitted by Castaneda himself to be a "direct transcription"
of less legible notes Castaneda allegedly took while talking with
'don Juan'. In other words, even the 12 lousy pages are NOT
original field notes! So how many pages of ORIGINAL field notes
do we have from Castaneda's famous alleged note taking? Zero!
Is anyone surprised?"

The 12 pages of so-called 'field notes' are not original,
although they were indeed written by Castaneda. They are
discussed in some detail by Richard DeMille in his 1980 book
'The Don Juan Papers', if you want to know more. In DeMille's
opinion, they could simply have been part of an earlier
Castaneda manuscript. There's no compelling case at all
that they really came from any original 'field notes'.

I can even tell you where these people probably got their copy
of these 'notes'. Back when Ralph Torjan from the Sunday Class
was making his movie 'Carlos Castananeda - Enigma of A Sorcerer',
on his website he was offering people a 'bonus' of a copy of
these very 'notes'. You had to have the right username and
password to get them. I don't even recall if I saved my own
copy somewhere, probably - but... who cares, right?
Ralph's site is gone now, of course.

Mystery solved? :)

.

(See, this is why I'm still on this stupid board. LOL.)

.

[imaginenoguns]

it's funny these astute warriors from Mexico
would try and play the scam again. No no no.
Ain't gonna be no re-match. Sorry amigos, nice
try but you are way too late. OK, that's the
end of that horseshit. What's next?

[imaginenoguns]

well here we are again on planet dumb-ass.
who is going to get shot today?
as though killing someone does something.
109 billion people have been here so far.
we got 7 or 8 billion here now.
what does death do?
nothing.