The Demise of Ports O'Call, San Pedro, CA.. - a photo album..
Harv Laser
Smitten with nostalgia and wanting to do something like this before they
tore it down (which they just might do), I hopped in the car this afternoon
and drove over San Pedro and walked from one end of Ports O'Call Village to
the other and back again, and shot a few dozen pictures.
I uploaded them all as an "album" at Sony ImageStation. This is the URL:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4293482721
There are a whole bunch of ways you can view the pictures once you are
there, selecting various numbers of rows and colums, zooming in and out,
blah blah etc. etc.
I shot all of these with my Mavica in 640x480 mode to keep them a managable
size for those without broadband connections. I've never used ImageStation
before, but it was fairly painless. Since I am registered in it with one
browser (cookie) but not another, after I created the album, and copied the
URL, I pasted it into the other browser and it shows it to me just fine so
I believe you do not have to be registered at ImageStation in order to view
any of this, although if you have any problems, holler. I do not know how
it will behave in browsers other than those for Winblows 98.
Since Sony only lets you add 500 characters for an album description, I'll
say a little bit more here.. I had to keep chopping down my description
until it was under 500 characters and they don't provide a counter.. grr..
Ports O'Call is, or was, a quaint seaside shopping and restaurant district
at the tail end of San Pedro, CA, facing one of the channels of L.A.
Harbor. It's probably about 1/4 mile or less long, end to end, and parts
of it resemble the general outlay of New Orleans Square in Disneyland..
tight little twisty avenues lined on both sides with shops and restaurants.
There are no "rides" there except for boat excursion trips and a former
glass elevator tower, similar to the one that was at Marineland before they
tore it down. The one at POC is also long gone.
By my guess, about 90% of the shops and restaurants at POC are closed,
windows papered over, or literally boarded up. The whole far end of the
"Whaler's Wharf" section, which was the second half of the Village to be
built, a good ten or more years after the first part opened, is blocked off
with a big wooden wall but I shot one picture around it. That's the one
labelled poc_04. Sad sad sad!
The huge parking lot was also 90% empty and I doubt I saw more than two
dozen people in the place, including shopkeepers in the shops that are
still open, during the hour or so I was there.
I talked to a couple of shopkeepers, and no one really knows what they're
going to do with the place.. either re-furb it and try to make it work
again, or tear the whole thing down and put up something entirely different
on the same piece of land, like a boat marina.
The place didn't look all that "dumpy" to me - a fresh coat of paint here
and there, a little rennovation, and some better shops and eateries and it
could be a tourist destination again. Or not, I don't know.
I probably went to POC dozens of times in High School and College and
shortly thereafter, from the late 1960s when they built it to the late
1970s.
It was always bustling with people, thousands of people, every shop was
open, and you often had to actually hunt for a parking space. Well, no
more.. all it needs now is some tumbleweeds and a grave marker.
This really has nothing to do with Disneyland except that a huge percentage
of Disneyland visitors live in So. Calif., and read this group and probably
visited POC at one time or another during their lives, so I thought you'd
find it interesting to see what it looks like now. Just another So. Calif.
tourist attraction that had its heyday and then imploded.
I don't think you need to register with Sony ImageStation to view the
album.. you might have to if you want to leave comments there and feel
free, but keep it "G" rated because that's the class I put it in.
All pictures in the album at
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4293482721 are Copyright
Harv Laser, 2000. You may freely distribute them but please give proper
credit or just point people at the URL and let them see it for themselves.
Feel free to link to it from your own site if you wish. Since I'm using
Sony's Web space, not my own, it'll just stay there until ImageStation
blows up.
I'd say "have fun" but it's not all that much fun to look at.. although it
might stir some memories and emotions for some of you. Feel free to
cross-post this to any appropriate newsgroup, or email it to anyone you
want.
Harv
--
Founder of AmigaZone. Supporting Amiga owners since 1985!
Go here for info or to join: http://www.amigazone.com
PLEASE NOTE!!.. My 10-year hrl...@netcom.com account has closed. All mail
sent
to it is auto-forwarded to hla...@socal.rr.com
gjw
I always liked Ports O'Call. My brother used to work there back in the
70's. I'm sorry to see it in such sad shape, but it's been heading in
that direction for years now, so it's no surprise.
It always was a ghost town during off-season weekdays, but it was
clear to see that those empty days were becoming more & more common
throughout the year. The last few years, only mid-summer weekends were
drawing crowds, and then many of them were going to that new section
at the north end, and ignoring the main part of Ports.
I think the village had a few basic problems (most of which could have
been corrected) that held down attendance.
Nice as it was in atmosphere, there was little to do there, other than
take photos, window shop, buy touristy trinkets or admire the nautical
architecture. There were no movie theatres, no arcades, no clubs, no
concerts... And as you mentioned, it had no rides. I think just a few
high-quality carnival rides out front (such as a good carousel, ferris
wheel, etc.) would have greatly increased attendance.
(Yes, they brought in a tiny carnival now and then, but it wasn't up
to snuff.)
Another problem, was the layout of the village. Since it was open to
the parking lot along the entire length, many visitors just walked
along the outside edge, not even venturing into the village itself.
The one thing the place had going for it was its view of the harbor,
yet there were surprisingly few restaurants with a good view of the
water, and most of them that had a view were also pricey. And the maze
of walkways could sometimes be confusing; I know that many people,
walking north to south, stopped dead when they came to the central
lagoon area (that leads to Whaler's Wharf) and turned around, assuming
that was the end of the village, when in fact it was the halfway
point. And on top of all that, the village was located far from the
beaten track and rather hard to find for first-timers.
I think they might have benefitted from a few less-expensive
restaurants providing a good view of the water - perhaps even a food
court with some standard fast-food joints.
I think they also might have benefitted from putting a wall around the
village (cutting it off from the ugly parking lot), and providing only
a single entrance/exit for visitors, then redesigning the walkways to
steer customers to a scenic route they wanted them to take.
They could have used a few popular, non-touristy stores (to
counterbalance all the candle shops and candy stores) to draw the
locals as well as tourists. And much more entertainment (which always
seemed popular on summer weekends) might have helped.
Personally, I think the place could still be salvaged. The look of the
place is still a selling point (if it is spruced up again), as is its
location next to the channel and the view of the huge ships heading
out to sea. It just needs a slight redesign, a new tenant mix, more
things to do once you get there, and a higher advertising budget to
get people out there.
(By the way, the Acapulco restaurant near the entrance to Ports
O'Call, with its seaside view and good food, is one of my favorites.)
Jon Nadelberg
>
> I always liked Ports O'Call. My brother used to work there back in the
> 70's. I'm sorry to see it in such sad shape, but it's been heading in
> that direction for years now, so it's no surprise.
I'm surprised.
In the mid-80s, there was a really really bad storm that kind of wrecked
the place. They used to have this boat that was tied to a dock you
could walk on that had little miniatures you could look at. It all got
wrecked, and I remember it not being as nice afterwards.
But it was always very crowded when I went, mostly in the very north end
where there were fish markets and stuff.
--
See 1970s Disneyland!
http://home.pacbell.net/jonvn
Pinniped
I can recall going to Ports O'Call any number of times with the family.
I think we had dinner there occasionally, but mostly just walked around the
shops. (For some reason I thought they were really cool, when I was a kid,
back in the early-to-mid 1970's I suppose.) I don't think I've been there
in at least 15 years -- the place seemed to be in fairly decent shape the
last time I was, so far as I recall.
Though they never had rides, I do seem to remember that at one time you
could get a harbor tour on board a helicopter. Never did this, though.
It was a place that was a bit hard to find, and surrounded by somewhat
run-down San Pedro, which may be a contributing factor to its langusihing
away. Possibly the place has gotten worse since I moved to San Diego.
In the still more nostalgic realm: does anyone remember a place called
Pierpoint Landing? I know I went there a few times as a kid (probably late
sixties this time), that it was near the ocean, probably somewhere in the
general Long Beach vacinity but no idea exactly where. I think it had some
shops and kiddie rides, but what I mostly remember was that they had sea
lions you could feed. I remember the fishy smell quite distinctly!
Definitely not as "upscale" as Ports O'Call, but I've been wondering just
where the place was for years.
--
Pinniped
To send email, just don't be a doofus
Nick
Did you know they're planning on knocking down Jack London Village in Oakland?
That place seems to be quite similar to Ports O' Call. There's a web page up
about it....www.savethevillage.org.
It's a shame that the unique and well themed shopping centers built in the 70s
are getting knocked down. Many others have been altered to a point where
they're like every other shopping center.
In the Bay Area we've lost places like the Old Mill in Mountain View, the
Pruneyard in Campbell, and El Paseo de Saratoga in Saratoga. Ghiradelli Square
seems to have a lot of empty store fronts too. Its San Francisco location saves
it though. And now it looks like were going to loose Jack London Village.
-Nick
Stop Silicon Valley Sprawl-Save Coyote Valley
www.come.to/coyotevalley
Visit A Guide to Mountain View CA
www.travel.to/mtnview
Jon Nadelberg
>
> Hey Jon and other Bay Area people,
>
> Did you know they're planning on knocking down Jack London Village in Oakland?
> That place seems to be quite similar to Ports O' Call. There's a web page up
> about it....www.savethevillage.org.
>
I don't think I've ever been to Jack London Village. I've been to Jack
London Square...but I don't remember this place. I haven't been to Jack
London Square in four or five years, though.
> It's a shame that the unique and well themed shopping centers built in the 70s
> are getting knocked down. Many others have been altered to a point where
> they're like every other shopping center.
>
It is a shame, but I think it may have something to do with them not
being popular. I personally like them, but then I'm nuts. I do like
the Town and Country shopping centers. The one in Palo Alto is not
doing so well. But there is a new restaurant going into the old
Stickney's. I think the one in Sunnyvale is doing better. Don't know
about the one in San Jose (next to the Mystery House).
> In the Bay Area we've lost places like the Old Mill in Mountain View, the
> Pruneyard in Campbell, and El Paseo de Saratoga in Saratoga. Ghiradelli Square
> seems to have a lot of empty store fronts too. Its San Francisco location saves
> it though. And now it looks like were going to loose Jack London Village.
>
Ghirardelli Square doesn't have any empty storefronts that I can see on
the main level. It's a pretty popular location. I go there
occasionally to scarf overpriced sundaes because they have this one I
really like. Called Strike it Rich, it's a hot fudge/butterscotch
sundae on vanilla ice cream.
About 3 or so years ago, the ice cream place cut by about 1/3 the size
of the sundaes, and at the same time raised it's prices. It was
expensive before, but now it's astronomical.
Ever been to Fenton's in Piedmont? That's a great ice cream place.
Nick
>being popular. I personally like them, but then I'm nuts. I do like
>the Town and Country shopping centers. The one in Palo Alto is not
>doing so well. But there is a new restaurant going into the old
>Stickney's. I think the one in Sunnyvale is doing better. Don't know
>about the one in San Jose (next to the Mystery House).
Town and Country Village is gone in San Jose. It's a very big empty lot right
now. They're building a development called "Santana Row" there. It'll be like a
recreation of a historic Dowtown area, with a central street lined with shops
and restaurants and surrounded by medium density housing and offices.
Town and Country Village in Sunnyvale is actually going to be used to expand
what's left of the traditional Downtown Sunnyvale. They'll probably demolish
most of the center and build a series of office buildings and hotels with
retail on the bottom floor. But that won't be for a while.
..Slowly but surely, things are shifting back to Downtown areas.
Vulcaniya
>Did you know they're planning on knocking down Jack London Village in
>Oakland?
>In the Bay Area we've lost places like the Old Mill in Mountain View, the
>Pruneyard in Campbell, and El Paseo de Saratoga in Saratoga.
Wow. This hit as a sudden burst of shock to me. I used to frequent the Old
Mill when I lived in the Bay Area. I remember the Water Wheel and the Bridges
- and sitting at the Upstart Crow enjoying a Cafe' Borgia on numerous occasions
with nothing to do than sit there and enjoy a well steamed cup of coffee. El
Paseo, altho' a nice public open space, was always troubled for tenants (and I
lived a bit of a mile south from it at the time). My favorite there was Steve
Dawson's Magic shop - which - prior to that had been in Los Gatos - if I recall
correctly.
The Pruneyard - had some great shops, great eateries, and , it was well
located. Across the way was the first Tower Records I ever stepped foot into
and eventually worked at, and, the other angle led to the first TOGO's Sandwich
Shop ever built. I even saw that little house transformed into what was the
cornerstone of a great eatery chain. I can only fear what happend to the "Old
Town Campbell District" - with the Gaslight Theatre and
all..."sigh"....Pruneyard was also the site of my first encounter with Upstart
Crow And Company - a combine bookstore and coffee house - and my first meeting
with the coffee drink destined to become my signature drink - the Cafe' Borgia.
(I am thankful there is still an Upstart at Universal City Walk I can get to
on occasion.) Many happy nights were spent inside those tiered floors,
imbibing various forms of coffee and writing serious works of creative endeavor
for countless english and theatre courses at San Jose City College.
Across the street (sort of) was (I believe( The Factory - another compound of
dining and shopping experiences that suffered due to location. But, The
Factory was the home of KHARTOUM - a clean and well lit fern bar - a place that
eventually replaced Upstart across the street (Upstart eventually closed) as my
writer's nook. I would take a place in a comfortable chair next to the
over-sized fireplace and have the usual trilogy of influence brought to me - An
Irish Coffee, a side shot of Tullamore Dew Irish Whiskey, and a Guiness Stout
on tap. I would enjoy their company for two to three hours at a time as I
continued to write and draw. (By that time I had started doing artwork as
well.)
Ghiradelli Square was a favorite realm in THE CITY, as also was the Cannery.
Jack London Square (on the other side of the bay) was delightful, but, I didn't
get there as much as wanted.
Anyways, I am sad to hear that these unique outdoor dining and shopping
districts are being lost to the ravages of time.
Thank you for bringing this up. And, for the warm memories that followed.
TDC Lady Vulcaniya, Ambassadress Of Discovery Bay & Keeper Of The Temporal
Lighthouse
"Whatever one man is capable of conceiving, other men will be able to achieve."
- Jules Verne -
Vulcaniya
>Date: 10/17/00 2:52 AM ES
>Ever been to Fenton's in Piedmont? That's a great ice cream place.
>
If it is still there - Pollyann's in the Sunset District of San Francisco. used
to have the most eclectic ice cream flavors you would ever hope to find.
Bring back KFAT!
Vulcaniya
>Town and Country Village is gone in San Jose. It's a very big empty lot right
>now. They're building a development called "Santana Row" there. It'll be like
>a
>recreation of a historic Dowtown area, with a central street lined with shops
>and restaurants and surrounded by medium density housing and offices.
A cleaner and asfer downtown SJ than First Street, eh? Hmmm - do you think
they will move Original Joe's (if it is even still open) to a new and more
profitable location? Of course, T&C in San Jose (Stevens Creek and Winchester)
has the "honor" of having been the first location of the now infamous "Chuck E.
Cheese" chain....(opened in 1977) - I do miss the rather large bookstore that
existed in SJ's T&C Village..
>Town and Country Village in Sunnyvale is actually going to be used to expand
>what's left of the traditional Downtown Sunnyvale. They'll probably demolish
>most of the center and build a series of office buildings and hotels with
>retail on the bottom floor. But that won't be for a while.
Does this mean that the covered Mall (Sunnyvale Mall) will go away? When I
lived I lived in Sunnyvale (early 80's) - the Mall was outdoing the T&C
Village....
I wonder how Los Gatos is holding in this - I recall how OLD TOWN LG went from
being an Arts and Craft Center in the late 60's to a commercial reality with
some dining experiences and some shops. I used to enjoy gigging shows in the
pit behind Old Town (if you were lucky, the potters were firing thier kilns and
a unique atmosphere was around) - as well as performing in several productions
on the OT Theatre mainstage.
Santa Cruz - I have not seen it since I left in '89 to travel south - the
rebuild had yet to start and most of what remained of the Pacific Garden Mall
district was still under large white tents. I am curious to get back and see
what has happened.
Nick
>Mill when I lived in the Bay Area. I remember the Water Wheel and the
>Bridges
>- and sitting at the Upstart Crow enjoying a Cafe' Borgia on numerous
>occasions
>with nothing to do than sit there and enjoy a well steamed cup of coffee.
Yup. The Old Mill is now a "new urbanist" neighborhood of condos and rowhouses
centered around a new Caltrain station. I have pictures of the Old Mill up on
part of my web page: http://members.aol.com/MVNick/malls.htm
El
>Paseo, altho' a nice public open space, was always troubled for tenants (and
>I
>lived a bit of a mile south from it at the time). My favorite there was
>Steve
>Dawson's Magic shop - which - prior to that had been in Los Gatos - if I
>recall
>correctly.
>
The new El Paseo, which is now nothing more then an over glorified stucco strip
mall, still has a magic shop in it. Might be the same one.
>The Pruneyard - had some great shops, great eateries, and , it was well
>located. Across the way was the first Tower Records I ever stepped foot into
>and eventually worked at, and, the other angle led to the first TOGO's
>Sandwich
>Shop ever built. I even saw that little house transformed into what was the
>cornerstone of a great eatery chain.
The Pruneyard is still partially intact. The hidden courtyards and gardens have
been taken out though. They ran a small "road" right through the heart of the
shopping center. It feels more like a semi-downtown then the serene garden
atmosphere it once had. But I guess the remodel was worthwhile because the
Pruneyard has adapted and is now thriving.
I can only fear what happend to the
>"Old
>Town Campbell District" - with the Gaslight Theatre and
>all..."sigh"....
Downtown Campbell is doing great. The Gaslight Theatre is still there I
believe. Like I said, Downtown areas have really taken off as the malls in the
South Bay have died off. Now malls are trying to be like Downtowns to survive.
>Ghiradelli Square was a favorite realm in THE CITY, as also was the Cannery.
>Jack London Square (on the other side of the bay) was delightful, but, I
>didn't
>get there as much as wanted.
Ghiradelli is still doing good, although sometimes I worry about it. The lower
levels are empty, the upper levels are filled.
>
>Anyways, I am sad to hear that these unique outdoor dining and shopping
>districts are being lost to the ravages of time.
Ya, it's like the 60s era recession of Downtowns has come full swing and kicked
back at the malls. Future generations will probably complain about how this
generation allowed the malls to be knocked down, as we complain about urban
renewal projects that turned historic Downtown districts into parking lots.
>
>Thank you for bringing this up. And, for the warm memories that followed.
No problemo.
Nick
>A cleaner and safer downtown SJ than First Street, eh? Hmmm - do you think
>they will move Original Joe's (if it is even still open) to a new and more
>profitable location?
OJ's is still there and I doubt they will ever move. Downtown San Jose is
coming along too. Stores are starting to move back into 1st street, currently a
Walgreens and House of Blues are under construction. The process of rebirth has
taken longer then it should have though, but the pace is picking up.
>Does this mean that the covered Mall (Sunnyvale Mall) will go away? When I
>lived I lived in Sunnyvale (early 80's) - the Mall was outdoing the T&C
>Village....
The Sunnyvale Mall is a sad, sad place. It hasn't been remodeled since it was
built. That will soon change though. The mall is going to be given a phase
lift, and the surface parking lots are being replaced by parking garages and an
expansion of historic Murphy Street on one end. Along Mathilda, the parking
garage was knocked down and they're building an outdoor semi-urban mall
expansion to the street frontage.
The only part of Downtown Sunnyvale that is doing good right now is the one
block long historic core that they saved from demolition when the built the two
malls. So the other malls are borrowing off that atmosphere.
Vallco Shopping Mall in Cupertino also seems to be on it's last legs.
>I wonder how Los Gatos is holding in this - I recall how OLD TOWN LG went
>from
>being an Arts and Craft Center in the late 60's to a commercial reality with
>some dining experiences and some shops.
Old Town has been turned into a even more commercialized place. It was
completely renovated and Barnes and Noble has opened there. I'm not even sure
if the courtyard in the back still exists. Downtown Los Gatos is one of the
most popular parts of the vally right now. Downtown Palo Alto, Downtown
Mountain View, and parts of Downtown San Jose are also doing really well right
now.
>Santa Cruz - I have not seen it since I left in '89 to travel south - the
>rebuild had yet to start and most of what remained of the Pacific Garden Mall
>district was still under large white tents. I am curious to get back and see
>what has happened.
Downtown Santa Cruz is all rebuilt and doing well. Probably more chain stores
then you remember. A new AMC theater has opened. It's a very nice place to
visit, always crowded when I go there.
Karen Anderson O'Mara
>
>
> Wow. This hit as a sudden burst of shock to me. I used to frequent the Old
> Mill when I lived in the Bay Area. I remember the Water Wheel and the Bridges
> - and sitting at the Upstart Crow enjoying a Cafe' Borgia on numerous occasions
> with nothing to do than sit there and enjoy a well steamed cup of coffee. El
> Paseo, altho' a nice public open space, was always troubled for tenants (and I
> lived a bit of a mile south from it at the time). My favorite there was Steve
> Dawson's Magic shop - which - prior to that had been in Los Gatos - if I recall
> correctly.
I loved all these places in the Old Mill, too. After they closed the shops, the
theaters remained open in the ghost-like structure and ran $1 movies for several
years (I think it was years) and I took Emily to a lot of Disney movies over and
over again for a buck when she was a squirt.
Now, what was the Old Mill is now homes. The connect-together type homes.
> The Pruneyard - had some great shops, great eateries, and , it was well
> located. Across the way was the first Tower Records I ever stepped foot into
> and eventually worked at, and, the other angle led to the first TOGO's Sandwich
> Shop ever built.
Are you sure? I thought the first Togo's was in downtown San Jose, near campus.
Speaking of the Pruneyard, the Left at Albuquerque restaurant is really good. I
wanted to go to El Burro for ol time's sake but was talked into this place. Sort
of NEW mex type of cooking and the Fried Creme Brulee was so wonderful.
> Across the street (sort of) was (I believe( The Factory - another compound of
> dining and shopping experiences that suffered due to location. But, The
> Factory was the home of KHARTOUM - a clean and well lit fern bar - a place that
> eventually replaced Upstart across the street (Upstart eventually closed) as my
> writer's nook. I would take a place in a comfortable chair next to the
> over-sized fireplace and have the usual trilogy of influence brought to me - An
> Irish Coffee, a side shot of Tullamore Dew Irish Whiskey, and a Guiness Stout
> on tap. I would enjoy their company for two to three hours at a time as I
> continued to write and draw. (By that time I had started doing artwork as
> well.)
I used to spend time at Khartoum's too! Remember the Bodega across the street from
Khartoum's? I used to work there as a waitress. The Apple guy owned it.
>
>
> Ghiradelli Square was a favorite realm in THE CITY, as also was the Cannery.
> Jack London Square (on the other side of the bay) was delightful, but, I didn't
> get there as much as wanted.
I went to Jack London Square a few months ago. Parking alone is enough to deter a
lot of people, I think.
>
>
> Anyways, I am sad to hear that these unique outdoor dining and shopping
> districts are being lost to the ravages of time.
>
> Thank you for bringing this up. And, for the warm memories that followed.
same here...
Karen
Karen Anderson O'Mara
>
>
> Does this mean that the covered Mall (Sunnyvale Mall) will go away? When I
> lived I lived in Sunnyvale (early 80's) - the Mall was outdoing the T&C
> Village....
Sunnyvale Town Center (that's what it's called) has a lot of closed stores. But,
it still has a Macy's and Penny's which helps keep it alive, I think. Murphy
Street is the hap'nen restaurant/bar place, just on the other side of Macy's. Il
Postale (means the Post Office, and in fact, is the old SV post office), is one of
my favorite restaurantss. And, one of our favorite agency clients is now in the
T&C buildings, in about 3 of their offices there.
My kid loves this mall, btw.
>
>
> I wonder how Los Gatos is holding in this - I recall how OLD TOWN LG went from
> being an Arts and Craft Center in the late 60's to a commercial reality with
> some dining experiences and some shops. I used to enjoy gigging shows in the
> pit behind Old Town (if you were lucky, the potters were firing thier kilns and
> a unique atmosphere was around) - as well as performing in several productions
> on the OT Theatre mainstage.
LG is still very busy and still has lots of art galleries.
>
>
> Santa Cruz - I have not seen it since I left in '89 to travel south - the
> rebuild had yet to start and most of what remained of the Pacific Garden Mall
> district was still under large white tents. I am curious to get back and see
> what has happened.
Remember the Cooper House?
Karen
Jon Nadelberg
>
> >It is a shame, but I think it may have something to do with them not
> >being popular. I personally like them, but then I'm nuts. I do like
> >the Town and Country shopping centers. The one in Palo Alto is not
> >doing so well. But there is a new restaurant going into the old
> >Stickney's. I think the one in Sunnyvale is doing better. Don't know
> >about the one in San Jose (next to the Mystery House).
>
> now. They're building a development called "Santana Row" there. It'll be like a
> recreation of a historic Dowtown area, with a central street lined with shops
> and restaurants and surrounded by medium density housing and offices.
>
Wow. Shows how often I go down there. That sounds like it might be
better than what was there before.
> Town and Country Village in Sunnyvale is actually going to be used to expand
> what's left of the traditional Downtown Sunnyvale. They'll probably demolish
> most of the center and build a series of office buildings and hotels with
> retail on the bottom floor. But that won't be for a while.
>
> ..Slowly but surely, things are shifting back to Downtown areas.
Downtown Sunnyvale is not exactly what I'd call a downtown area. What
it looks like to me is that what happened in Los Angeles is happening
here. With multiple regional shopping/business areas that are not
connected and do not serve a large metropolitan region, as you'd see in
a typical downtown area.
Matt
Roy Batty wrote:
>
> In article <39EBD902...@pacbell.net>, Jon Nadelberg
> <jo...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >I'm surprised.
> >
> >In the mid-80s, there was a really really bad storm that kind of wrecked
> >the place. They used to have this boat that was tied to a dock you
> >could walk on that had little miniatures you could look at. It all got
> >wrecked, and I remember it not being as nice afterwards.
>
> I could think that the things killing the place are:
>
> There is a LOT of competition these days.
>
> San Pedro is pretty ugly. You don't even want to think about going in
> the water down there.
Its a virtual slime pit. Carson by the sea.
> The Port O' Call space is VERY specific and it doesn't offer a lot of
> options for alternative use. (Remember the SS Pricess Louise?)
What a dive.
> And it's not just PoC. The entire neighborhood is in transition and
> part of that may be because Fort Macarthur has been decommisioned.
> During the sixties and early seventies FM was a little boomtown because
> of Viet Nam. Now there's nothing there. And over in Long Beach I think
> they closed the Mall. There was talk of it closing the last time I was
> over that way. You gotta love Book City!
>
> There are a few things in the area that are okay. I like the 22nd
> Street Pier because there are a lot of dive boats berthed there.
> There's also a few gentrified eating places. I like the Cabrillo Marine
> Museum and I'm trying to remember if the Maritime Museum in the old
> ferry building in over that way. I think it is because I did a few bike
> rides over that way once.
A cool thing to do is go right out to the tide pools. Amazingly the sea
life still lives in the disgusting water. Just park at the Cabrillo
museum, and walk out towards the cliff on the beach. Follow it a little
ways down past the opera singing um living in a giant block of cement,
and you are at some bona fide tide pools. There are urchins, fish,
crabs, anemones (spelling), snails, slugs and other stuff to look at.
You aren't supposed to take anything from the area because its a state
refuge. Check the tides in the newspaper before you go and try to be
there during low tide.
> Somebody, and I doubt it will be LA City needs to put a few dollars into
> the area. I think there's a movement for San Pedro to break away from
> LA City. How it because a part of LA was a story worthy of the most
> Machiavellian intrigues.
Everyone wants to break apart from the city.
Matt
--
Have a problem with what I am saying?
Please visit: http://www.kungaloosh.com/matt.asp
All you need to do is fill out the complaint form.
gjw
wrote:
> I'm trying to remember if the Maritime Museum in the old
>ferry building in over that way. I think it is because I did a few bike
>rides over that way once.
Yes it is. It's just across the parking lot from Acapulco restaurant,
near the entrance way to Ports O'Call.
Actually, that's quite a nice little museum (lots of nautical stuff),
especially when you consider that it's free.
Tjames Madison
>>From: na...@aol.com (Nick)
>
>>Town and Country Village is gone in San Jose. It's a very big empty lot right
>>now. They're building a development called "Santana Row" there. It'll be like
>>a
>>recreation of a historic Dowtown area, with a central street lined with shops
>>and restaurants and surrounded by medium density housing and offices.
>
>they will move Original Joe's (if it is even still open)
It is. I had dinner and cocktails there last month.
What a great joint.
RoR-Alucard | http://www.pigdog.org
~Yo Soy Un Pistolero~
seanster
to
> the other and back again, and shot a few dozen pictures.
Visited Ports O'Call on a weekend early last year and also noticed the
change from when I used to visit it in the 70's as a kid. It really was a
tourist attraction back in the day. Lots of stores were vacant, but it did
seem pretty busy near the fish market in the middle, where lots of hispanic
families were scarfing down on fish and seafood they were grilling right
there. Ate at the Ports O'Call Restaurant and thought the food was still
pretty decent but pricey. It's amazing to be sitting there at your table and
watching one of those humongous shipping vessels pass by you as it goes out
or comes in from sea. They are really HUGE. Saw a couple of cruise ships
pass by as well.
Also went to the small seaside village/strip mall in Marina Del Rey a few
months ago. The one with the Shanghai Red's restaurant at one end. That one
seems to be dying a slow death as well. Not as quaint or interesting a place
as Ports O'Call used to be, but it was a nice place for a walk with a date
about a decade ago.
>There are no "rides" there except for boat excursion trips and a former
>glass elevator tower, similar to the one that was at Marineland before they
>tore it down. The one at POC is also long gone.
Wasn't there some sort of accident on that sky tower in the 70's?
sean
Vulcaniya
>Remember the Cooper House?
>
I'll get back to that, but, yes.
Wow. The "historic district" of Sunnyvale has really changed A LOT - from what
you good folk tell me. Thanks. It used to be an old and worn street with a
great oriental restaurant and pizzeria when I was there. "sigh".
From what was also said in another post about Old Town LG - wow!.
Mountain View (Downtown area) wasn't much either when I was up and going to
Foothill and DeAnza...amazing how things redistribute and change.
Now for Cooper House and Santa Cruz. I have pictures of the House - somewhere.
I also have pictures of the wonderful old stained glass ceiling that used to
span the the patio along the side of it as well. In fact, (and, this will
prove me to be a true denizen of Santa Cruz...) When I first moved to that City
of wonderful weirdness, I dwelt for several months in the "quaint and historic"
Saint George Hotel. Now, there was a slice of life. ;) (Later I moved out to
Capitola into a rather nice mobile, but, such was another story - someplace
between art classes at Cabrillo and late night gigs on KPIG.......
Vulcaniya
Re: Original Joe's -
>It is. I had dinner and cocktails there last month.
>
>What a great joint.
>
(This will date me) I had dinner there with my folks when we first moved to
San Jose in 1966. Man, First Street and downtown were seedy as heck then. I
remember when the SJ Public Library was still in the beautiful old brick
building. Lived about a mile and a half to two miles south of Frontier Village
- a simple bicycle ride away to a wonderful Saturday or Sunday of "Old West"
adventure.
Vulcaniya
>Are you sure? I thought the first Togo's was in downtown San Jose, near
>campus.
Umm . ... I'd give it a 98% factor of being certain. I'll option the 2%
probability, however. Campbell is - if I recollect correctly - Shop # 1 and is
still listed as the home office on the flyers..I'll check at Togo's next to
Fullerton College tomorrow and get some info on this...thanks for the
question....
>Left at Albuquerque restaurant is really good. I
Got one here at the BLOCK in Orange. Not bad grub. I prefer TU TU TANGO,
meself....
>Remember the Bodega across the street from
>Khartoum's? I used to work there as a waitress. The Apple guy owned it.
>
Ohmigawd, THE BODEGA...yea, verily, I do. Fun place to hang. OK - here's a
shot of weirdness - Sylvester McFly's (I believe was correct name of the place)
alongside the 280 on ramp - I think? Time Travelling themed bar - still
around? Had great calamari rings when I used to go there....
Vulcaniya
>I stayed in Allen Hall at SJSU in '75.
>
>The running joke was:
>
>What do you do for fun in San Jose on weekends?
>
>Go to The City.
>
>
>
That was more a truth than a joke! ;)
Karen Anderson O'Mara
> Mountain View (Downtown area) wasn't much either when I was up and going to
> Foothill and DeAnza...amazing how things redistribute and change.
Downtown MV is a PaloAlto-wannabe, and in a lot of ways, the old downtown MV was
so much nicer. It had so much character. (Sorry, Nick, but those were the good
ol', funky days.)
>
>
> Now for Cooper House and Santa Cruz. I have pictures of the House - somewhere.
> I also have pictures of the wonderful old stained glass ceiling that used to
> span the the patio along the side of it as well. In fact, (and, this will
> prove me to be a true denizen of Santa Cruz...) When I first moved to that City
> of wonderful weirdness, I dwelt for several months in the "quaint and historic"
> Saint George Hotel. Now, there was a slice of life. ;) (Later I moved out to
> Capitola into a rather nice mobile, but, such was another story - someplace
> between art classes at Cabrillo and late night gigs on KPIG.......
You've lived in a lot of places around these parts...!
Karen
Karen Anderson O'Mara
> (This will date me) I had dinner there with my folks when we first moved to
> San Jose in 1966. Man, First Street and downtown were seedy as heck then. I
> remember when the SJ Public Library was still in the beautiful old brick
> building. Lived about a mile and a half to two miles south of Frontier Village
> - a simple bicycle ride away to a wonderful Saturday or Sunday of "Old West"
> adventure.
ahem, this will date me, but I used to cut Environmental Law class with a buddy in
1979 all the time and hang out at Original Joe's. Now, I have gone there a few
times when I've gone to a movie at the Camera theaters...
sigh, they serve red wine in wine glasses now... they used to serve it in water
glasses....
Karen
Karen Anderson O'Mara
> Ohmigawd, THE BODEGA...yea, verily, I do. Fun place to hang. OK - here's a
> shot of weirdness - Sylvester McFly's (I believe was correct name of the place)
> alongside the 280 on ramp - I think? Time Travelling themed bar - still
> around? Had great calamari rings when I used to go there....
I used to hang out there, too... but, alas, it's gone!
Karen
BlakeMF
Filmed there for two days on a Universal series and we had carte blanche over
the whole area. Back then (1980) there were some great shops.
Last time I was there (1991) it was pretty dead (this was a weekday & around 5
pm).
Did you know they shot part of the John Jakes mini-series "The Rebels" there?
Some of the old shops were used as Philadelphia in the 1770s. Looked great,
too. They also shot at Knott's Independence Hall.
<<Wasn't there some sort of accident on that sky tower in the 70's?>>
I do not recall the sky tower, but they had a helicopter ride that was a lot of
fun. However, I think it went into the drink a few times and they stopped
offering rides (no one was seriously hurt).
They also had an old three mast ship where you could have dinner and cruise the
harbor or have weddings.
Michael F. Blake
Harv Laser
news:5%bH5.34147$qM3.2...@news1.bnapk1.occa.home.com...
> Wasn't there some sort of accident on that sky tower in the 70's?
>
Perhaps that's why they tore it down.. it wasn't part of the original
Village, and I don't think it was there all that long, but that'd take more
research than I have time to do. Marineland's much taller glass elevator
tower was also a later add-on and it too eventually developed problems and
they just parked the elevator at the top and left it there.
I remember when they started tearing down Marineland.. the Tower was about
the last thing to go.
Harv
Harv Laser
news:20001018115546...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
We appear to have come full circle here :) ..
> I remember how busy the place was in the late 1970s/early 1980s.
Indeed, Ports O'Call used to be a very popular place.
> Filmed there for two days on a Universal series and we had carte blanche
over
> the whole area. Back then (1980) there were some great shops.
Another film that has a lot of footage shot around the South Bay area where
I live is "Lifeguard"
(1976) with Sam Elliot, Anne Archer, and a very young Kathleen Quinlan.
There aren't a whole lot of films with recognizable South Bay footage, but
this one is loaded with it, nothing in San Pedro, though, mainly Torrance
and Redondo streets and beaches. But I digress..
> <<Wasn't there some sort of accident on that sky tower in the 70's?>>
>
> I do not recall the sky tower, but they had a helicopter ride that was a
lot of
> fun. However, I think it went into the drink a few times and they
stopped
> offering rides (no one was seriously hurt).
Not included in my "Demise of.." photo essay is the little booth from which
they sold the Helicopter Ride tickets.. it's still there with the price
sign still there, but vacant and boarded up like most everything else.
> They also had an old three mast ship where you could have dinner and
cruise the
> harbor or have weddings.
As I mentioned earlier - The Buccaneer Queen. Went out on her a bunch of
times for corporate / industry dinner party cruises. Now that was fun, and
the ship mainly stayed in the channels and inside the breakwater, except
for a short period outside it when they turned off the motor and put up the
sails. They had a BBQ grill on deck so big they could throw 100 steaks on
it at once. There was also a similar but slightly smaller sister ship
operated by the same outfit docked next to it.
After dinner and they cleaned up all the paper plates and such, (the crew
was umm.. maybe a half dozen people) you'd park yourself wherever you could
sit or wander around above and below deck, and they'd sail back to their
dock through the channels, under a bridge that had to be lifted, past those
huge freighters, and so on.. the dinner cruises started just before sunset
so you'd get daylight, dinner, sunset, and come back in the dark. Ahh..
o/~ memories o/~
Those are gone..
Harv
Vulcaniya
Re: Sly McFly's -
>I used to hang out there, too... but, alas, it's gone!
Darn! I wish I could have gotten pictures of that interior. Great stuff. Oh
well, I still have a menu around here, someplace!
So, old Sly finally got the hang of temporal relocating down, eh.
Is the buiilding stil there, or, was it gutted and turned into something else
again? If so - do you (or anyone up that way) know hwat happened to the
interior set pieces?
Vulcaniya
>You've lived in a lot of places around these parts...!
>
>Karen
Yeah - I was a Nothern Central Coast/Bay area junkie. found an area I enjoyed
visiting and wound up staying in it for about a year at a time to soak up the
local character...allows me to get to know a place on more than a surface
relationship...faves are - Los Gatos, Santa Cruz, San Francisco (no particular
order.)
Jon Nadelberg
>
> BlakeMF <bla...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20001018115546...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
>
> We appear to have come full circle here :) ..
>
> > I remember how busy the place was in the late 1970s/early 1980s.
>
> Indeed, Ports O'Call used to be a very popular place.
Thinking about it, I remember the last time I went there. It was very
busy, but I recall thinking "there's really not a lot to this." The
fish market at the north end was kind of neat, but otherwise, there
wasn't a lot there and it was really kind of small. Certainly not
enough to merit a drive all the way to San Pedro. They could never
charge admission for the place.
Without anything other than shops, it was really nothing more than a
mall with the same kinds of shops you could find locally. There were no
hotels connected to it, no rides or shows. Nothing that would make
anyone want to go there during the week. And individual businesses that
are not propped up by some other financial means of support, usually
can't survive like that.
So, the weaker businesses close, making the place even less of a draw
than before. Fewer people show up, making what were formally stronger
businesses weaker until they too are forced to close. It all just
spirals down to what it looks like it is now.
The spot still has a lot of potential, even though it probably has a bad
rap in the minds of a lot of locals now. They would have to put in a
hotel, some shows, rides, a museum, and probably charge people to go
in. Otherwise, it would simply not going to be able to compete, which
it obviously has not been able to do up to now.
EnergiFlow
>By my guess, about 90% of the shops and restaurants at POC are closed,
I was there several weeks ago and the place does have a sad, washed-up quality
about it. The Times did an article about the surrounding community of San Pedro
some time ago, noting that in spite of the seaside location and hillsides of
the community and its redevelopment projects, the area continues to suffer.
L.A.'s port town ain't no Sydney, Australia or Venice, Italy.
>The huge parking lot was also 90% empty and I doubt I saw more than two
>dozen people in the place,
I was there on a Saturday and the place was somewhat busy with a clientele made
up of mostly Latino families, possibly tourists or locals.
>The place didn't look all that "dumpy" to me
I noticed some rather significant wood rot in at least one largely vacant
retail structure. Not much better, I noticed the developers never even bothered
to conceal a row of ugly power poles and wires sitting right along part of the
front side of the shopping complex.
Janet H.
gjw
<sean...@nospam.home.com> wrote:
>seem pretty busy near the fish market in the middle, where lots of hispanic
>families were scarfing down on fish and seafood they were grilling right
>there
Actually, I think that is part of the problem. I don't think that fish
market area is really even part of Ports O'Call, but lots of people
seem to stop there and they never even venture down to the real Ports
O'Call village (where the shops are closing down.)
gjw
<hla...@NOSPAM.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>As I mentioned earlier - The Buccaneer Queen. Went out on her a bunch of
>times for corporate / industry dinner party cruises. Now that was fun, and
>the ship mainly stayed in the channels and inside the breakwater, except
>for a short period outside it when they turned off the motor and put up the
>sails.
Which reminds me. If you're into boat rides and harbor tours, the Port
has a good deal once a year, usually around Mothers Day weekend. They
offer free harbor cruises - completely free, no strings attached -
from Ports O'Call village. Get there early to avoid the long lines,
but otherwise it's a nice little trip with a unique view of the L.A.
harbor.
Harv Laser
news:39ef961a...@news.earthlink.net...
And now for something completely different.. A Man With Three Buttocks! No
wait.. wrong script..
Okay.. now you got me started..
One of my favorite hangouts which is another tourist trap, but FAR better
maintained, and nearly ALWAYS busy is Old Sacramento, in that City,
sandwiched almost literally between the State Capitol and the Sacramento
River. I lived up there ten years ago and went over to Old Sacto countless
times. I make a yearly trek up there to exhibit at a certain AMIGA
Computer Convention and always visit Old Sacto at least two or three times
while there.
http://www.oldsacramento.com is their site. Many of the merchants there
have their own sites which link from that one.
Now I'm not going to try to make a direct comparison between Ports O'Call
and Old Sacramento, because while they're not exactly apples and oranges,
(more like tangerines and oranges).. it does show how two vaguely similar
"themed" shopping areas/districts can be on the one hand, a dismal failure,
and on the other a wild success.
Old Sacramento is much bigger, emcompassing a few smallish city blocks, it
has besides over a hundred functioning retail shops (most of which, again,
are unique, one-of-a-kind places, not chains) at least twenty different
eateries - everything from a quickie ice cream cone or cuppa joe to full
sit down dinners and nightclubs. Well there is a Carl's Jr. There but
offhand I can't think of any other chains.
Picture Frontierland, the strip with the Saloon and where the Pendleton
Woolen Mills Store used to be, and that general area, or Knott's original
Ghost Town, or Calico, and now imagine a half dozen city blocks that look
like that. Wooden planked sidewalks three times as wide. Generally
two-story buildings, most of which date back nearly 150 years to the Gold
Rush Era.. (although they have been restored and brought up to code, of
course). Alleys in which you can actually walk and not feel like you're
going to get mugged. Cobblestone streets. A huge "Farmer's Market" area.
Blah Blah etc. etc.
Plus, the famous State Railroad Museum is right there on the grounds, and
then behind that on the river are a number of REAL "Mark Twains" - one of
which, the Delta King, I think it's called, is permanently moored (Like the
Queen Mary) and turned into a hotel, while at least two others are fully
functioning triple-decker paddle-wheel steamers (and they ain't on tracks,
kids).. that offer tours of from an hour to three hours in length as they
cruise up and down The Sacramento River. You can pay ten bucks for an
hour's sightseeing (with an onboard bar that serves $3.00 beers, or bring
your own snacks along) or you can pay triple that for a full dinner cruise.
Old Sacramento is, after Disneyland, probably my favorite "tourist trap"
that I've ever experienced. I just never get tired of the place. Like
Disneyland, it's probably more than the average person can see in a single
day. Free admission. A huge parking structure that isn't free, or up to
two hours of parking on the cobblestone streets if you can find a place.
My three favorite shops there are: "The Closet" run buy a wacky guy named
Jon.. an absolutely wonderful mish-mash of old STUFF, and he'll wheel and
deal on anything and doesn't charge tax (how he gets away with that I have
no idea).. and the back area of his store up a few stairs is another store
called "The Good, The Bad And The Ugly" with a similar selection of old
stuff, "Brooks Records and Novelties" downstairs in a courtyard near The
Closet, who probably have 50,000 used LPs and 45s, and rooms full of stuff
like old pinball arcade machines, old gas station neon clocks, etc. etc..
and their walls are plastered with old Fillmore posters, and "Stage Nine
Entertainment" who sells new Hollywood/Movie oriented stuff, tourist junk,
(Ya need a matched set of Larry, Moe and Curley keychains? :) .. but also
has a half a room with nothing but Disney Gallery stuff.. in fact they were
recently annointed as an official Disney Gallery store. Their web site has
a QTVR 360 degree zoomable camera shot of that room.. that's a trip to
view..
One of my customers works maintenance there and he is constantly puttering
around in one of those little gas carts, painting this, fixing that. The
place is very well-maintained.
Anyway, you compare a bustling place like Old Sacramento to a pathetic
nearly-closed place like Ports O'Call and you have to ask yourself.. why is
one still flouishing, and the other is on the verge of meeting Mr. Wrecking
Ball. Neither is packed with rides. Both front a busy waterway. One is a
joy and the other has degenerated into tears.
One of the mantras of retail is "Location, location, location." Comparing
where the two are with respect to what is close to them probably has a lot
to do with it. But it doesn't take 70 acres full of Disneyland-style
rides to make a place a success. It takes a management and an owner who
cares about the place, and makes it into something that people really like
and will keep coming back to, to unload their wallets.
Harv
Jon Nadelberg
>
> Anyway, you compare a bustling place like Old Sacramento to a pathetic
> nearly-closed place like Ports O'Call and you have to ask yourself.. why is
> one still flouishing, and the other is on the verge of meeting Mr. Wrecking
> Ball. Neither is packed with rides. Both front a busy waterway. One is a
> joy and the other has degenerated into tears.
>
Sacramento is the state capital, and gets tourists in for that. Other
than the capital building itself, there is no other focal point for
people in the area to go to. That is quite different from POC.
Also, the California State Railroad Museum is next to Old Sacramento.
This is one of the finest railroad museum in the country. That's a
draw. There is also a lot of stuff going on at night, and these are
actual working city streets. Throw in the fact that this is a historic
district, and you have popularity.
POC doesn't really have any of that. It was a quaint shopping area next
to a channel that you could hardly even see, as the design of the place
blocked most of the views. It could become that, but it'd need a lot of
work.
> One of the mantras of retail is "Location, location, location." Comparing
> where the two are with respect to what is close to them probably has a lot
> to do with it. But it doesn't take 70 acres full of Disneyland-style
> rides to make a place a success. It takes a management and an owner who
> cares about the place, and makes it into something that people really like
> and will keep coming back to, to unload their wallets.
>
It basically needs customers. If you have no customers, you have no
business.
TCS
Pruneyard in Campbell, and El Paseo de Saratoga in Saratoga. <
Wow! It's like you are destroying my childhood (actually young adulthood).
Even tho I live in Colo, I use to spend a lot of time in Silicon Valley. And l
have been to these 3 "malls" many times, particularly the Old Mill.
And in another life I once ate dinner at Jack London Square, and I have visited
Ports of Call many times (once sailed from there to Catalina on a charter
schooner) . It's sad to lose all of these fun places. Next you will be
telling me that the "The Pike" is gone! ;-)
(or the Spruce Goose)
Is Pier 39 still active?
TCS (The Colorado Skier)
Colorado - Only one more week till Loveland opens!
Nick
>Even tho I live in Colo, I use to spend a lot of time in Silicon Valley. And
>l
>have been to these 3 "malls" many times, particularly the Old Mill.
The Pruneyard still stands. It just got its courtyards ripped up. If you go to
eat outdoors at El Burro's then you're going to eat next to a parking lot
instead of the garden that used to be there.
Like I said before, if anyone wants to get nostalgic and see pictures of The
Old Mill, visit this web page:
http://members.aol.com/MVNick/malls.htm
>Is Pier 39 still active?
Very. They claim it's the most popular tourist destination in San Francisco.
Always packed with tourists.
-Nick
Stop Silicon Valley Sprawl-Save Coyote Valley
www.come.to/coyotevalley
Visit A Guide to Mountain View CA
www.travel.to/mtnview
Harv Laser
news:RBatty-CF5F43....@news.earthlink.net...
> If they could clean up the harbor I could see the area going way
> upscale. But nobody wants to spend $350k on a house that overlooks a
> seaside cesspool.
You think that's bad?
If you take Hawthorne Boulevard all the way up over the Palos Verdes Hill
and all the way down to its very end where it Ts at Palos Verdes Drive
West, straight ahead you will see a bunch of flags and an entry way to a
new housing area - I hesitate to use the word "tract." Subdivision.
Whatever.
What's there are "turnkey" houses for millionaires - they are fully
furnished and landscaped and brand new, and multi-thousand square feet
each, most with huge lots and pools and Jacuzzis, and blah blah etc. etc.,
and sell for from $3 million to $8 million, give or take. I forget exactly
what that tract is called, but it's just being finished and there are
models and houses for sale there. It's been featured on quite a few teevee
shows, both local and national/cable.
The problem is, those houses, as palatial as they are, and I'm talking such
things as solid polished onyx floors, already furnished, literally pay the
price, get handed the key and walk in.. well, they are not selling.
The people who have $3 million to $8 million to buy a turnkey pre-furnished
home, no matter how nice it is, are rich Hollywood studio types. And if
you know the area of which I speak (about a mile or less from where
Marineland was), you'll know that there is basically nothing there, except
a half-vacant shopping center whose supermarket has been shut down for ten
years, two restaurants, a few shops, and a church. The rich folks don't
want to spend over an hour commuting to and from the studios every day.
From those homes it takes you over half an hour just to get to the nearest
freeway, either all the way through Portuguese Bend through San Pedro, or
up and over the hill and back down again. And that's not even during rush
hour, when it takes longer.
The developer of this millionaire's housing tract fought with the State for
years to finally get permission to build on what was literally virgin land
forever. Unfortunately, his brain was not in gear. He's built his field
of dreams, but no one came.
Harv
Joe Keenan
from a poster about living a mile south of Frontier Village in San Jose. I too
lived just south of FV. I went to Oak Grove HS ('79).
Does anyone know of websites that might bring back visual memories of the dear
departed FV? Thanks.
Robb Alvey
>dear
>departed FV? Thanks.
Funny you should mention this! A dedication site has just been published about
4 weeks ago.
The site was put together by two Bay Area members of the American Coaster
Enthusiasts, Elliott Fong and Kim Perderson (also president of the Monorail
Society).
The site can be found at:
http://www.frontiervillage.net/
And, if you're interested, the Monorail Society is at:
Cheers.
--Robb
Remove the Gerstlauer to respond!
Theme Park Review Update!
Download new videos of Lake Compounce's Boulder Dash and Holiday World's
Legend!
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ICQ# 9407662
Joe Keenan
Davko58
> >Does anyone know of websites that might bring back visual memories of the
> >dear
> >departed FV? Thanks.
> Funny you should mention this! A dedication site has just been published about
> 4 weeks ago.
I was wondering when someone was going to mention Frontier Village with
all this talk about South Bay shopping centers. I've made a few
comments about the place here before, but only a few people seemed to
know what I was talking about.
> The site was put together by two Bay Area members of the American Coaster
> Enthusiasts, Elliott Fong and Kim Perderson (also president of the Monorail
> Society).
>
> The site can be found at:
> http://www.frontiervillage.net/
And it really is a very well done site with some great pics.
My family used to make the trek from Marin to Frontier Village every
couple of years back in the 60's. We'd go there, then pop over the hill
to Santa's Village, then on to the Santa Cruz Beach and Boardwalk. It
would only take a weekend to do it all, and we didn't have drive 500
miles to Disneyland. I remembered very little about what it looked
like, but some of those pics brought back some memories. That dark ride
that looked like Rainbow Caverns, the log blockhouses, the gunfights,
the mules, the Stagecoach, the train; very Disneylandlike.
I also experienced death for the first time in the Frontier Village
parking lot. A week before we went, we saw a traveling circus that set
up where the Marin Fairgrounds are now. They sold these little lizards
that were strapped onto a cardboard thing for a few bucks. Believe it
or not, they were chameleons. I loved that little lizard and wanted to
take it with us on our next amusement park excursion. Well, when we
finished seeing the park we returned to the car and I realized I had
left the little bugger in his coffee can on the back shelf of the car
under the rear window. The sun was on him all day, and all that was
left was this little shriveled up thing that no longer resembled a
chameleon. It looked more like a twig. I cried for about 2 hours, and
have obviously retained the memory for about 35 years.
Davko58
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TCS
>the last thing to go.
>
>
still intact and being used to film TV shows, but the tower was gone.
TCS
TCS
>and all the way down to its very end where it Ts at Palos Verdes Drive
>West, straight ahead you will see a bunch of flags and an entry way to a
>new housing area
That whole region is a known landslide area. When I lived at the top of Palos
Verdes (off Hawthorne) nothing was allowed to be built south of us - between us
and the ocean. On my last visit I was surprised to see new houses.
Nick
>
Yup. Never been to the Flea Market, but the drive in it is located in still is
going strong.
Ditch
My family would go there several times a year and we were there the last
weekend of operation. My sister and I rode the Round-Up 4 times in a row.
With the website up, wow. Brings back a lot of memories.
-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*
Harv Laser
TCS <thec...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001020002848...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
> >If you take Hawthorne Boulevard all the way up over the Palos Verdes
Hill
> >and all the way down to its very end where it Ts at Palos Verdes Drive
> >West, straight ahead you will see a bunch of flags and an entry way to a
> >new housing area
>
> That whole region is a known landslide area. When I lived at the top of
Palos
> Verdes (off Hawthorne) nothing was allowed to be built south of us -
between us
> and the ocean. On my last visit I was surprised to see new houses.
There is a section about a mile south of where Marineland used to be called
Portuguese Bend. That is about a 1/4 mile long stretch that is a constand
landslide/shift area. The drive there is like a roller coaster which
changes almost literally day to day. Speed limit is 15mph. They have had
to move the gas and other pipes above ground so they can flex. The road
has been totally rebuilt numerous times, and patched between rebuilds
thousands of times. I am speaking of a different area, directly at the
very end of Hawthorne Boulevard.
The place where the new millionaire homes are built was protected public
lands for as long as I can remember, up until a couple years ago when
apparently, some politicians had their pockets lined.
I don't know your history on the hill but I have lived in the area since
1965. Palos Verdes High School Class of 1967. Disneyland Grad Night 1967,
The Summer of Love, Baby. I was invited to go to the Monterey Pop Festival
(Hendrix, The Who, etc. etc.) and chose Grad Night instead.
Harv
Jack...@webtv.net
there because I wanted to see the "Big W" from "It's A Mad Mad Mad Mad
World". I was amazed to see just how much the road had changed since
the movie. Anyway, I parked my car down on the beach and I actually
climbed up the side of the cliff and walked right onto the property and
saw the remains of the Big W. In retrospect, I realize that I could
have been arrested because it was obviously private property. But I was
young and stupid back then and I saw no signs of any people, so I went
for it. I wonder if it's still there? Only one of the palms was alive
back then.
Jon Nadelberg
I don't think there ever really was a big W.
dobe...@socal.rr.com
>One of my favorite hangouts which is another tourist trap, but FAR better
>maintained, and nearly ALWAYS busy is Old Sacramento, in that City,
>sandwiched almost literally between the State Capitol and the Sacramento
>River. I lived up there ten years ago and went over to Old Sacto countless
>times.
The jazz festival draws thousands, & you make a good point here. I
lived in that area for awhile, too, & Old Sac draws locals constantly
(in addition to out-of-towners).
Masselin D'Isigny
>
> The people who have $3 million to $8 million to buy a turnkey pre-furnished
> home, no matter how nice it is, are rich Hollywood studio types.
I'll go a step further and say that the people who spend that kind of
money on a tract home have more money than they have brains. I don't
care how nice those homes are; they're still sausage grinder tract
homes.
If I ever have that kind of money, I'm going to hire an architect to
design a home.
Masselin
Jon Nadelberg
>
> Harv Laser wrote:
> >
> > The people who have $3 million to $8 million to buy a turnkey pre-furnished
> > home, no matter how nice it is, are rich Hollywood studio types.
>
> money on a tract home have more money than they have brains. I don't
> care how nice those homes are; they're still sausage grinder tract
> homes.
> If I ever have that kind of money, I'm going to hire an architect to
> design a home.
You don't need that kind of money to have an architect, but if you did
have that kind of money, you'd have to be nuts not to hire one and build
what you wanted exactly.
An architect will draw up plans for you for only a few thousand dollars.
Matt
Masselin D'Isigny wrote:
>
> Harv Laser wrote:
> >
> > The people who have $3 million to $8 million to buy a turnkey pre-furnished
> > home, no matter how nice it is, are rich Hollywood studio types.
>
> I'll go a step further and say that the people who spend that kind of
> money on a tract home have more money than they have brains. I don't
> care how nice those homes are; they're still sausage grinder tract
> homes.
> If I ever have that kind of money, I'm going to hire an architect to
> design a home.
You can't have a home designed for the money it costs for a tract home.
Well you can have it designed, but that's about it. You will have a
nice blue print to mount in your apartment.
Matt
--
Have a problem with what I am saying?
Please visit: http://www.kungaloosh.com/matt.asp
All you need to do is fill out the complaint form.
Harv Laser
> In article <39F286...@cwnet.com>, Masselin D'Isigny
> <rya...@cwnet.com> wrote:
>
> >If I ever have that kind of money, I'm going to hire an architect to
> >design a home.
>
> beauracracy involved that it takes years to see a completed structure.
> A gy I worked with ten years ago built a modest home in Malibu and the
> stories he told around the shop were almost enough to make ME cry.
>
> There are state, city, county, and federal governments involved.
> Environmental impact reports, title searches, tax issues.
There are some cities with such strange laws that you almost have to wonder
how any houses get built there at all.
For instance - lots of people, not necessarily you, but lots of people
think "Palos Verdes" is just one place. It's actually four separate and
distinct cities: (and none of this will make any sense to folks who have
never lived there, or travelled through it)..
Palos Verdes Estates, the oldest one, with its City Hall next to Malaga
Cove Plaza.
Rolling Hills Estates, mainly the top part of the hill, this is where the
Peninsula Center shopping center and The Hill's one remaining high school
are.
Rolling Hills, this is a private, gated city which is literally fenced off
from the others, and requires entry and exit past guard shacks.. if you are
not a resident or a guest of one, you simply cannot drive in there. I've
only been in there once, back in college.. I think some of us shooting a
movie lied our way in ;) .. Lots of huge, rambling ranch homes, a tiny
population, most of them who have stables with horses.
Crime is nearly zero.
Rancho Palos Verdes, the one most recently incorporated (10 years ago or
maybe it was 15 or 20). This one is what used to be the rest of the Hill,
which was unincorporated L.A. County Land. This is the one that stretches
over most of the Southeastern side of the Hill, and includes the nearly
deserted Golden Cove Shopping Center, those turnkey millionaire homes I was
talking about, and its City Hall is actually located on the site of what
used to be a Nike Missile Base (!).. yes, back in my High School and
College
Years and for some years thereafter until it was de-commissioned and the
hardware removed, one could actually drive down Hawthorne and see the
missiles being test-raised out of their ground holders and pointing at
angles into the sky!
Except for P.V.E., I believe the other three all use the services of the
L.A. County Sheriffs and Fire Departments.
Having lived in P.V.E. for a couple decades before I moved out on my own, I
am familiar with the quirky rules and regulations in that City. For
instance, nowhere in the City will you find any street lights or
intersection lights. Just stop signs. Hardly any sidewalks anywhere.
Over 90% custom-built homes, no tracts.. Street signs are all made of wood,
on wooden posts, and their lettering is all raised wooden carved letters.
Most of it has Spanish tile roofed homes, and if you are re-roofing an
older home these days, you are forbidden from using wood shingles entirely.
This is both for the aesthetic look they're trying to achieve, and because
it's classed as a high fire risk zone.
Not one single home in P.V.E. is allowed to put its trash cans at curbisde
for weekly pickup. Instead, every single home must have a concealed, gated
area somewhere on its side where trashcans are kept and the trash hauling
guys have to go into that area with bigger wheeled cans, empty your
trashcans into theirs, and then haul those back to their trucks. The same
goes for the three separate recycling bins each house must have (paper,
glass, and clippings).
The City can and will tell you what color you can paint your house, how
high a fence you can put around it, if they'll let you put one around it at
all (the guy who lived on the corner of our block erected a 2 foot high
slatted painted fence around his front yard, and the City made him tear it
down), since it has an "Art Jury" which must see and approve any and all
such plans.
Anyway, that's some of the b.s. you have to put up with if you want to
build or own a home in P.V.E.
There are also ultra-strict laws about retail signage, what size it can be,
whether or not it can have lighting, etc. etc.
Now, back to those turnkey millionaire homes - they are located just
outside the city limits of P.V.E. in Rancho Palos Verdes, which has an
entirely different set of laws. If you drive past them, you will see these
things are on HUGE lots.. with HUGE floorplans, like 5000 to 7000 sq. ft.
..they are not crammed up against each other. Yes, it is a "tract" but
each house is different in size, floorplan, and outward appearance. I'd
have to check but I don't think there are more than a few dozen of them.
There are models open now, but unless you drive down there in a Mercedes,
I'm not sure they'll let you in to see them ;)
Anyway, to end this blather, here's the Web site of their development
company:
Go there and click on the enter "Oceanfront" link and you can see what this
is all about. This site is rather graphics heavy and needs a modern
browser.
Harv
beer man
CRobin4564
>Crow And Company - a combine bookstore and coffee house
Me too! Boy, that seems like a lifetime ago :). Sorry to hear the Pruneyard
is gone. What is in it's place?
Does anyone remember St. James Infirmary? It was in SJ or Campbell or
somewhere around there.
CarolR
The Doctor
>> I'll go a step further and say that the people who spend that kind of
>> money on a tract home have more money than they have brains. I don't
>> care how nice those homes are; they're still sausage grinder tract
>> homes.
>> If I ever have that kind of money, I'm going to hire an architect to
>> design a home.
>
>You can't have a home designed for the money it costs for a tract home.
>Well you can have it designed, but that's about it. You will have a
>nice blue print to mount in your apartment.
Sure you can, you just won't get as big/nice of house and it'll take
longer to build. I grew up, and for a short time worked with a
contractor up in Oregon, all he did was build homes. Custom and
tract. The nice thing about tract homes, or developer homes is that
costs such as running plumbing, traffic/environment impact studies,
running phone lines, etc can be spread out amoung quite a few homes
lessening the costs for the individual home owners. However, if
you've got $3+ million to spend on a home, you can still get yourself
a pretty nice house custom built. Especially if you don't mind living
out in the countryside. If you are building in a city, esp a So Cal
city, you might as well get a tract home in a development. Many So
Cal cities have such extreme building codes that go so far as to tell
you what color paint you can use, what your roof can look like, etc,
etc, you are pretty much stuck with a house that looks like a tract
house when finished anyway.
Boy that was rambling, and I'm not sure if I made any sense. In
summary, for $3 million you can have a custom designed/built house
that's pretty darn nice. Especially if you live outside a city.
However don't expect as big/nice a house as if you had just bought a
tract home that had a lot of the overhead development costs spread out
among 50+ other homes.
The Doctor
"And isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean
all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when
you're good and crazy, oooh oooh oooh, the sky is the
limit!"-The Tick
Nick
>is gone. What is in it's place?
The Pruneyard still stands. Sort of.
>
>Does anyone remember St. James Infirmary? It was in SJ or Campbell or
>somewhere around there.
>
It was in Mounain View and it burnt down a few years back. I somehow got a old
Disneyland ticket book at a collector shop in Sacramento that had "St. James
Infirmary" written on the back. I didn't even know that it had St. James
written on it until I was back home in Mountain View.
Masselin D'Isigny
>
> Having lived in P.V.E. for a couple decades before I moved out on my own, I
> am familiar with the quirky rules and regulations in that City.
After hearing all those rules, I'm wondering why anyone would want to
live there?
Masselin
TCS
>There is a section about a mile south of >where Marineland used to be, called
>Portuguese Bend. That is about a 1/4 >mile long stretch that is a constant
>landslide/shift area. The drive there is >like a roller coaster which changes
>almost literally day to day.
>Speed limit is 15mph. They have had
>to move the gas and other pipes above >ground so they can flex. The road
>has been totally rebuilt numerous times, >and patched between rebuilds
>thousands of times. I am speaking of a >different area, directly at the very
end of >Hawthorne Boulevard.
>
You are correct. I checked a map and determined that the area I was referring
to is at the end of Crenshaw, not Hawthorne. Everything south of Crest was
supposed to be off-limits to new construction. But there are some new houses
just south of Crest.
>
>I don't know your history on the hill but I >have lived in the area since
1965. Palos >Verdes High School Class of 1967.
>
I lived just off Crenshaw from 1971 to 1973. Too old for high school (aerospace
engineer) and my daughter was way too young. We moved out before the taxes ate
us up.
Cheers, TCS
TCS (The Colorado Skier)
Colorado - Loveland Basin ski area is now open!
Joe Keenan
Mountains to get a Christmas tree and a visit to see Santa at the Village. It
was even better when it snowed.
Gawd, I'm going to get nostalgic all over again. First Frontier Village, now
Santa's Village. I take it SV is also housing now?
Bruce Bergman
wrote:
>In article <39F323...@cwnet.com>, Masselin D'Isigny
><rya...@cwnet.com> wrote:
>>After hearing all those rules, I'm wondering why anyone would want to
>>live there?
>The rules keep out "the wrong type of people". And that doesn't have to
>mean race but it doesn't exclude it. Basically, if you can live within
>those rules then you are "the right type of person."
< Snip current and legal CC&R provisions >
>Until it was struck down by courts as unconstitutional there were
>restrictions in old covenants that said who you could and couldn't sell
>your house to. (House cannot be sold to jews, chinese, negroes, or
>mexicans).
And the stupid part is, even though they have been legally
unenforceable for years, I bought some vacant land that had some
odious CC&R's like this in the original subdivision deeds. I asked if
I could expunge the clauses from the deed, and was told that they have
to stay in there. (Unless I had a LOT of money to waste on legal fees
getting it done.)
Which is why I probably will avoid ever buying into a "Planned
Community" or condominium. I LIKE having room available behind the
gate in the side yard, and the option to tear down a car to fix it if
I want to. Or plant any darned type of hedge I want. Nyaah!! ;-P
--<< Bruce >>--
--
Bruce L. Bergman blCHURRObergman@ NOearthSPAMlink.netEVER Remove the caps.
Troubleshooter - Electrician, Phones, HVAC, Plumbing,...
'Current'ly with Westend Electric, Agoura, CA 818/889-9545
WARNING: No Unsolicited Commercial E-mail is EVER accepted.
Harv Laser
Masselin D'Isigny <rya...@cwnet.com> wrote in message
news:39F323...@cwnet.com...
> Harv Laser wrote:
> >
> > Having lived in P.V.E. for a couple decades before I moved out on my
own, I
> > am familiar with the quirky rules and regulations in that City.
>
> After hearing all those rules, I'm wondering why anyone would want to
> live there?
>
I don't know where you live but go drive around on the Hill, especially on
the side facing the ocean and you'll understand. There are many different
areas in P.V.E. just like there are different lands in Disneyland, each
with its own look and feel. Older "tree" sections, newer more open
sections, hilly sections, flat sections, on and on. Crime is very low, and
the cops are very present. Except for some condos here and there, and a
scant few apartment buildings, it's mainly single-family homes, almost all
custom-built. (This is only P.V.E. I'm speaking of.. the other cities on
the Hill do have tract homes)..
Homes there didn't cost millions a few decades ago like they do now. Well,
they're not ALL in the millions, but good luck finding a single family home
anywhere on the Hill for under $600,000 or so..
and if you do, it'll be a "fixer-upper." I could drive you around there on
some back streets and past some homes that would simply make you do a Roger
Rabbit (eyes bulging out of your head)..
But the property value has simply skyrocketed. People put up with the
rules and regulations and learn to live with them for the simple fact that
it's a lovely place to live, if you can afford to, although parts of it are
way out of the way for just about everything, such as even something as
common as a supermarket. Which is one main reason why that "Oceanfront"
development of millionaire homes is not selling.. (there is a shopping
center literally across the street from it, whose "anchor" store, a
supermarket, was built in the 1960s, and the building has been vacant for
nearly ten years.. why? I don't know.. one would think that area needs a
supermarket but it's empty).. the people with that kind of money don't want
to live so far away from everything. Especially movie studio people who
have that kind of money.
Sure, if you're that rich, you have peons, servants, maids, and gargoyles
to do your shopping for you, (I can't quite imagine Tom and Nicole or Jack
pushing a shopping cart down an aisle at Ralph's).. but you also don't want
to have to drive an hour or two to get to the studios, which is what you'd
have to do if you lived in one of those mansions.
Anyway, people live in that area because it's nice.. they live with the
quirky rules and laws because in part that's what keeps it nice. No
trashcans at curbside. A ruralish ambience. And I'm sure the snob factor
has a lot to do with it. You know your next door neighbor can't paint his
house bright screaming neon yellow and park pickup trucks on his lawn,
surround it with chain link and raise pit bulls.
Harv
TCS
>somewhere around there.
I remember it. We used to go to lunch there from Sunnyvale. Must be close by.
TCS
>TRW?
"It's always TRW" as we said whenever we lost a contract.
Nope, CSC
TCS
>they're not ALL in the millions, but good luck finding a single family home
>anywhere on the Hill for under $600,000 or so..
Ohmagod! Do you think we sold too low at $52,500? Okay, we weren't in PVE or
Rolling Hills, we were in the county area which became the new city. What's
that called?
TCS (wondering if selling the condo at Marina Del Rey for $40K was also too
low.)
TCS
>Santa's Village.
I thought that the Santa's Village that closed was at Lake Arrowhead. Did the
one up north close, too?
TCS (Our "North Pole", near Colorado Springs is still open.)
Joe Keenan
>I thought that the Santa's Village that closed was at Lake Arrowhead. Did
>the
>one up north close, too?
Santa lives! The one up North is still open, yes??
Actually, the SV that I went to as a kid was on Highway 17 on the way to Santa
Cruz. A long ago memory...
Dave & Deanna
> I don't know where you live but go drive around on the Hill, especially on
> the side facing the ocean and you'll understand. There are many different
> areas in P.V.E. just like there are different lands in Disneyland, each
> with its own look and feel. Older "tree" sections, newer more open
> sections, hilly sections, flat sections, on and on. Crime is very low, and
> the cops are very present. Except for some condos here and there, and a
> scant few apartment buildings, it's mainly single-family homes, almost all
> custom-built. (This is only P.V.E. I'm speaking of.. the other cities on
> the Hill do have tract homes)..
> Anyway, people live in that area because it's nice.. they live with the
> quirky rules and laws because in part that's what keeps it nice. No
> trashcans at curbside. A ruralish ambience. And I'm sure the snob factor
> has a lot to do with it. You know your next door neighbor can't paint his
> house bright screaming neon yellow and park pickup trucks on his lawn,
> surround it with chain link and raise pit bulls.
Actually getting this on-topic for a moment (no!), am I the only one who
has driven through there and, suddenly struck by the strange rural
quaintness of the area, found myself compelled to intone "This, too, is
America" in my best America The Beautiful narrator voice? :-)
CRobin4564
>Santa
>Cruz. A long ago memory...
Ooh, I used to go there too! Remember riding in the ornaments on the Christmas
tree ride?? I used to love that place.
CarolR
Joe Keenan
home. I just didn't know he lived so close to San Jose!
My favorite ride was the cars. They had a wood railing around the course so you
couldn't go careening off into the woods!
Does anyone know of a web page for SV? I've bookmarked the Frontier Village
website. It is an excellent site.
boz...@earthlink.net
how come every post by "Masselin" has something blatantly
wrong contained within it? EVERY post...
what makes it entertaining are the lines of people
correcting his stupidass comments and his subsequent predictable
no-show while people tear his ignorant posts apart. the guy
just flat out disappears.
mr. liver may be a bigger idiot, but at least he sticks around
to defend his idiotic rants that totally miss the point completely.
On Sun, 22 Oct 2000 06:47:08 GMT, Jon Nadelberg <jo...@pacbell.net>
wrote:
Masselin D'Isigny
>
> how come every post by "Masselin" has something blatantly
> wrong contained within it? EVERY post...
>
flamebait? THE FIRST POST?
> what makes it entertaining are the lines of people
> correcting his stupidass comments and his subsequent predictable
> no-show while people tear his ignorant posts apart. the guy
> just flat out disappears.
>
What makes it entertaining is how he expects me to continue to defend a
position after someone's proven me wrong. I have more class than Gore
does, thanks...
Masselin
Jon Nadelberg
>
> boz...@earthlink.net wrote:
> >
> > how come every post by "Masselin" has something blatantly
> > wrong contained within it? EVERY post...
> >
> flamebait? THE FIRST POST?
>
> > correcting his stupidass comments and his subsequent predictable
> > no-show while people tear his ignorant posts apart. the guy
> > just flat out disappears.
> >
> position after someone's proven me wrong. I have more class than Gore
> does, thanks...
>
Why not? Everyone else does it!
Jon Nadelberg
Davko58
> Roy Batty wrote:
> > In article <3A0D5AE2...@pacbell.net>, Jon Nadelberg
> > <jo...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > >Why not? Everyone else does it!
> > <Raise hand>
> Yes?
I think he has to go potty.
Davko58
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Jon Nadelberg
>
> Jon Nadelberg wrote:
>
> > Roy Batty wrote:
>
> > > In article <3A0D5AE2...@pacbell.net>, Jon Nadelberg
> > > <jo...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > > >Why not? Everyone else does it!
>
> > > <Raise hand>
>
> > Yes?
>
> I think he has to go potty.
>
Not until he finishes his fruit cup.