I am an ANGRY ARTIST!!!!!
Hades
>I am an artist/designer.
>I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
question, are these people you know or just strangers who ask for your
services?
Matt.
::SLAVE SCREAMS:He spends his life learning conformity! ::
::SLAVE SCREAMS:He claims he has his own identity! ::
::SLAVE SCREAMS:He's going to cause the system to fall! ::
::SLAVE SCREAMS:But he's glad to be chained to that wall!::
::Dont open your eyes you won't like what you see.::
::The blind have been blessed with security!::
::Dont open your eyes, take it from me, ::
::I have found, you can find, happiness in slavery::
Tiff Gorman
I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
Tiff
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Tiff Gorman - Artist/Designer - ti...@tiffg.demon.co.uk
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
http://www.maui.net/~babblero/tiffg.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Martha J. Retallick
>I am an artist/designer.
>I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
I've got a story to tell everyone:
Earlier this week, my neighbor-the-computer-programmer and I met with
two representatives of a group that desires a website.
They envision this website as a community service-type project, for
which they'd like free prototype development work. Neighbor would do
the heavy-duty programming, and I'd do design/HTML.
Then they would use this prototype to attract funding, and once they
got some, they'd put the project out for bid. The fact that we'd done
the upfront work would "count for something" during the bid review,
but that's all.
Needless to say, neighbor and I didn't just walk away from this one,
we ran!
Martha J. Retallick, lnr...@azstarnet.com
http://www.azstarnet.com/~lnrider (enter the eclectic web...)
Bucky Dauggy
Angst is the juice.
DickWeltz
They envision this website as a community service-type project, for
which they'd like free prototype development work. Neighbor would do
the heavy-duty programming, and I'd do design/HTML.
Then they would use this prototype to attract funding, and once they
got some, they'd put the project out for bid. The fact that we'd done
the upfront work would "count for something" during the bid review,
but that's all.
Needless to say, neighbor and I didn't just walk away from this one,
we ran!
<<
Martha: There's a sucker born every minute. Glad to hear you weren't one
of them!
-- Dick Weltz, Spectrum Multilanguage Communications, NYC
America's leading translators & foreign language typesetters
===================================================
Visit our Language News & Notes on the Web at
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/SpectrumLang
Greg Morrison
>Subject: I am an ANGRY ARTIST!!!!!
>Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:22:36 GMT
>I am an artist/designer.
>I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
>Tiff
They expect you to live like a monk, so you can provide your services for
free. And if you weren't so selfish, you would <G>.
It's the same all over. The people I call on are in business to
make a profit, yet many of them expect their vendor (me) to work on a profit
margin that would put them out of business.
When they're selling, they are capitalists. When they are buying, they're
socialists.
Stay cool....
filobedo
>
> I am an artist/designer.
> I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
> blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
> these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
>
> Tiff
>
> Tiff Gorman - Artist/Designer - ti...@tiffg.demon.co.uk
> ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
> http://www.maui.net/~babblero/tiffg.html
> ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
filo:main boner
Paul Hurley
wrote:
>I am an artist/designer.
>I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
Here's something I use that generally works well:
"Thank you, I'm not interested. Goodbye."
Paul Harris
> I am an artist/designer.
> I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
> blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
> these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
>
This is a bizarre message. If you only want to work for paying
clients, then do so.
Paul Harris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WORD WORKS TECHNICAL COMMUNICATIONS
Design & Layout
Digital Typesetting (604)384-3076
Editing & Writing (604)384-4402 (fax)
1013 Pendergast St.
Victoria, BC V8V 2W8 Word...@IslandNet.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rick Martin
Harris) wrote:
> Tiff Gorman wrote:
>
> > I am an artist/designer.
> > I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
> > blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
> > these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
> >
> > Tiff
> This is a bizarre message. If you only want to work for paying
> clients, then do so.
>
> Paul Harris
I agree. You post a message stating that you're looking for work, then you
jeapordize those possible future employment opportunities by following it
up with a bizarre rant. I can see it now, "Hold on, I think we've found
our artist. She's pretty tempermental *and* she bills herself as an Angry
Artist." Tiff, the world is choked with way too many Angry Artists.
Keep in mind, I agree with your sentiment, but I sincerely doubt that
you're going to find *anyone* here in alt.design.graphics is going to
disagree with the issue of an artist's right to get paid what they're
worth.
It's a bit like preaching to the choir. Or cutting off your nose to spite
your face. One of those cliches.
Rick
---------------
Rick Martin
rma...@io.com
http://www.io.com/~rmartin/index.html
The Hammerworks: Ministry of Art and Design
Jay H Williams
> blatantly expect my services for free....
To Tiff (Who is ticked!)
Yeah...I hear ya!
I've been doing graphic design since 1965, I have had my own graphic
design firm since 1979 and I STILL get many people asking for free
services.
Mainly from EVERY organization or club I join...it will never end. I
suggest to you to discipline yourself to reject any free request and stick
to your guns about needing your fees paid (50% up front if possible).
When you DEMAND a fee, most INTELLIGENT people are then "slapped awake" to
the fact that your time (AND TALENT) is valuable and needs to be paid
for. If they pay you an advance then they have made an investment and MAY
gain respect for the value of your service.
One observation I had is that I believe most people wish they had your
capabilities. They may think you are the lucky one and that it is such a
joy for you to do your art and to do so naturally. Therefore they may play
on this and ask you to do it for free....TO BE NICE TO THEM! Forget it!
Tell them this is your livelihood and you need to get paid just as THEY
get a paycheck or an income for what ever they do.
In response to your statement "What the fuck do people want these days?"
Study art history, you know, like Michelangelo and see what some of
these guys had to put up with in those days. It has always been this way
and always will, it not just "these days".
GOOD LUCK Tiff and get and stay tough. >: ^ )
Jay Williams
jw...@jwdc.com
http://www.jwdc.com
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
\ \
\ Its one thing to have a presence on the web. \
\ \
\ Another thing to have a powerful and \
\ professional looking and visually effective web site \
\ \
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
/ /
/ ALWAYS PUT YOUR BEST FOOT FORWARD! : ^ ) /
/ /
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Barbie Kew
> What the fuck do people want
>these days?
To borrow a phrase: JUST SAY NO !!
--
888888888888888888
Barbie Kew
Smoke'n 'em.
888888888888888888
Barbie Kew
>This is a bizarre message. If you only want to work for paying
>clients, then do so.
Typical Brit-blow, I would think. JUST SAY NO !! But don't expect
any referrals in return. Sometimes a bit of free sample brings BIG
returns later. Write it off as "charity" or as advertising expense.
s...@splicer.com
>This is a bizarre message. If you only want to work for paying
>clients, then do so.
Paul,
If you've never had the humiliating experience of walking in to a job
lead, portfolio in hand, thinking that you've got a good chance at
landing an interesting project, only to find that the "client" doesn't
think enough of your talents to pay you, then obviously you've never
ventured outside your studio, and probably never spent much time
inside it either.
I know that many small companies don't have the money to pay
top-dollar, and I am often willing to adjust my rates to take a job
that seems interesting. Tell me that I don't deserve compensation, and
I'll call you an asshole. If that seems bizarre to you, you obviously
have never seen the real world where even designers need to eat.
Steve
<s...@splicer.com>
Charles Eicher
J. Retallick) wrote:
> I've got a story to tell everyone:
>
> Earlier this week, my neighbor-the-computer-programmer and I met with
> two representatives of a group that desires a website.
>
> which they'd like free prototype development work. Neighbor would do
> the heavy-duty programming, and I'd do design/HTML.
>
> Then they would use this prototype to attract funding, and once they
> got some, they'd put the project out for bid. The fact that we'd done
> the upfront work would "count for something" during the bid review,
> but that's all.
>
> Needless to say, neighbor and I didn't just walk away from this one,
> we ran!
Perhaps you have failed to clearly convey that your services are
financially valuable. The fact that they desire your services means you're
already halfway to your goal.
Sounds to me like you're just lacking in negotiating skills..
--
----------------
Charles Eicher
cei...@inav.net
----------------
J Kirby Inwood
rule, I do not see paying referrals coming from freebies. Usually a
freebie will only result in a request for more freebies.
The final straw for me was when I let a local "free" distribution rag
reprint a how to business article I had on file. When it was
published, the editor had surrounded my free article with ads for my
competition.....
Bar...@smoke.com (Barbie Kew) wrote:
>>Typical Brit-blow, I would think. JUST SAY NO !! But don't expect
>>any referrals in return. Sometimes a bit of free sample brings BIG
>>returns later. Write it off as "charity" or as advertising expense.
>>--
>>888888888888888888
>> Barbie Kew
>> Smoke'n 'em.
>>888888888888888888
>>
*************************************************************
J Kirby Inwood Creative Services, DTP, Advertising and Copy Writing
Toronto Fax 416 778 5194 <http://www.inforamp.net/~kinwood/>
Matthew Carey
gna...@islandnet.com (Paul Harris) wrote:
>Tiff Gorman wrote:
>
>> I am an artist/designer.
>> I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>> blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>> these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
>>
>> Tiff
>
>
>This is a bizarre message. If you only want to work for paying
>clients, then do so.
>
>Paul Harris
Of course she will, but she obviously finds being taken for granted a
complete pain in the neck and rightly so.
Just because she is a creative person why should people assume that
creativity can be had for nothing or very little.
This is like people asking for murals and expecting to pay less than it
would cost to have the wall painted one colour by a professional firm of
decorators.
I don't know about the US but here in England, a certain school of business
practice gives very little value to visual skill and creativity.
Matthew
Matthew Carey
http://www.compulink.co.uk/~peckham/
Andy Pearlman
>In article <4kppus$l...@sanjuan.islandnet.com>,
>gna...@islandnet.com (Paul Harris) wrote:
>>Tiff Gorman wrote:
>>
>>> I am an artist/designer.
>>> I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>>> blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>>> these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
Some clever lines:
"Oh, I didn't realize this was an internship position. Why didn't you
advertise it as such?"
Whatever their company does - ask for about double your estimated fee for free.
"When you said it wasn't a paid position, I thought you meant the barter
system."
And the ever useful laugh at them.
>>This is a bizarre message. If you only want to work for paying
>>clients, then do so.
>>
>>Paul Harris
>
>Of course she will, but she obviously finds being taken for granted a
>complete pain in the neck and rightly so.
>This is like people asking for murals and expecting to pay less than it
>would cost to have the wall painted one colour by a professional firm of
>decorators.
>
>I don't know about the US but here in England, a certain school of business
>practice gives very little value to visual skill and creativity.
Sure. But what you do, is you say, "Here's my rate." Either they say, "cool"
or they start to whine a bit. Cool - you take the job. Whine, you say, "Thank
you very much. Let me know how things are going." You waste an hour or two of
your time. If you like, you can have a small range(not more than $5 either
way), that you are willing to be flexible about.
If your rate is realistic to your skills, someone *will* pay you to do what you
do. And remember, you know people, and the graphics world is usually a small
one. If you point out to a couple of friends in the business how this place
wants freebies, it will get around. Suddenly, that place has no competent
applicants, which is what it deserves.
Andy
--
Andy Pearlman - artwork at http://tsb.weschke.com/iiw/gallery/pearlman_a.html
apea...@panix.com
"What tip do you have to leave after staying seven years in a restaurant?"
kmo...@sashimi.wwa.com
people who say, upon finding out that I do 95% computer generated
illustration, "Oh, I thought you were a *real* artist."
That's right--when I want to draw a dog or an airplane or a forest, I just
hit the "DOG" button or the "AIRPLANE" button or the "FOREST" button on my
keyboard. Another morsel of wisdom often bestowed upon me: "Doesn't it
kill you that you spent all that time in art school when really all you
had to do was go out and buy a computer?"
--
Kristin, banging her head on the keyboard.
--
KNM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "If the B-2 is invisible, just announce you've built 100 of them and |
| don't build them." |
| --House Budget Committee Chairman, John Kasich,|
| on further production of the stealth bombers.|
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karl Pollak
> Yeah...I hear ya!
> I've been doing graphic design since 1965, I have had my own graphic
>design firm since 1979 and I STILL get many people asking for free
>services.
> Mainly from EVERY organization or club I join...it will never end. I
>suggest to you to discipline yourself to reject any free request and stick
>to your guns about needing your fees paid (50% up front if possible).
I would tend to disagree, especially when it comes to community or
other volunteer organizations. Their members bring their time and
talents to the group for a particular cause. If you are good at
graphic design, and most likely you are if you have survived in the
business this long, why would you think that you can make a better
contribution to the club by going door-to-door asking for donations,
or some similar way?
Why not produce a flyer that the canvassers can use to explain the
aims of the organization and solicit community support? After all, a
couple of hours to produce a good handout may be more effective than
knocking on 500 doors.
>When you DEMAND a fee, most INTELLIGENT people are then "slapped awake" to
>the fact that your time (AND TALENT) is valuable and needs to be paid
>for. If they pay you an advance then they have made an investment and MAY
>gain respect for the value of your service.
That would of course apply in the case of a commercial organization,
where the would-be-client wants to use your donated talent for a money
making enterprise.
I don't see anything wrong with donating one's talent, time,
capabilities for a good cause. Of course there is a possibility of
being exploited, that's where good judgment comes in and knowing when
to say "I'm sorry, I don't have the time"
Karl Pollak FidoNet 1:153/965
Richmond, B.C. Canadian Infomaticon BBS
Rick Pierro
take their time paying or skip town, a never ending ression, office rent
increases, employee raises, equipment repairs and purchases, software
updates, taxes and everyone and his/her brother armed with a computer...
it's not only tough to make a buck, it tough to keep it in your pocket!
Get a 50% retainer whenever possible, this weeds out the deadbeats and
covers costs if they stiff you for the balance. Make sure you're charging
enough. Make-up a comprehensive work estimate sheet. Assign each part of
the job a time value x hourly rate. Charge for meeting time. Always add a
misc.time (1-2 hours, small jobs) and add an A/A's (author's alterations)
note in your quote. A/A's sometimes add up to more than the original
quote.
Client's want to deal with professionals, and they want to know how much!
Spell it out on your quote... 50% retainer, balance COD, unless an
established account (net 30). And call those deadbeats and ask politely
for your money.
Freebies can be a pain, especially when funds are tight... but they can be
a tax right-off, or, dare I say it, lead to paying work.
Hang tough! "Fun flies when your doing time." 20 years and stilllllllll going.
--
Rick Pierro
Insomniac Graphics (Jason Camp)
: As another angry artist, let me share my gripe of the day: The ignorant
: illustration, "Oh, I thought you were a *real* artist."
: Kristin, banging her head on the keyboard.
*puts a pillow over the keyboard*
There there. You shouldn't let ignorance get you upset. :)
Jason Camp
Insomniac Graphics
inso...@io.com
http://www.io.com/~insomnia
Sheffield Abella
>I am an artist/designer.
>I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
>
>
>~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
>Tiff Gorman - Artist/Designer - ti...@tiffg.demon.co.uk
>~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
>http://www.maui.net/~babblero/tiffg.html
>~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
>
I know how you feel. I'm curious as to what your rate is. I never know what
to charge or if I'm overcharging or being underpaid.
For that matter does anyone have like a list of costs of various
design services or pay rate schedules?
Sheffield Abella
sh...@primenet.com
www.primenet.com/~sheff
B. A. CHENEY
(Jay H Williams) wrote:
> I've been doing graphic design since 1965, I have had my own graphic
> design firm since 1979 and I STILL get many people asking for free
> services.
> Mainly from EVERY organization or club I join...
<<Snip-a-Rola (TM)>>
Jay -
I hear ya, but just about everyone in just about every organization or
club I belong to is asked to volunteer their time & talents...if your
talent is graphic design, I don't think it's out of line for the .org to
ask you to volunteer.
I'm active in (among other things) a local theatre group & not only do all
of the actors volunteer their time, the set designers & artists (including
the professional ones) volunteer their time...often 20 hours a week for
the 8 weeks leading up to a major musical (and sometimes 20 hours a day
for the few days prior to the show)!
If you don't want to contribute to an organization, don't join it!
OTOH, though, if the group/individual requesting free services is one that
you're not affiliated with, I agree that EXPECTING free work is out of
line! REQUESTING free work is part of the program for just about any
volunteer and/or charity organization.
BAC
--
It is the opinion of the author that the opinions of the author are the author's opinions, not the opinions of those not the author.
BKelton
>In article <4kppus$l...@sanjuan.islandnet.com>,
>gna...@islandnet.com (Paul Harris) wrote:
>
>>Tiff Gorman wrote:
>>
>>> I am an artist/designer.
>>> I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>>> blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>>> these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
>>>
>>> Tiff
>>
>>
>>This is a bizarre message. If you only want to work for paying
>>clients, then do so.
>>
>>Paul Harris
>
>Of course she will, but she obviously finds being taken for granted a
>complete pain in the neck and rightly so.
>
>Just because she is a creative person why should people assume that
>creativity can be had for nothing or very little.
>
>This is like people asking for murals and expecting to pay less than it
>would cost to have the wall painted one colour by a professional firm of
>decorators.
>
>I don't know about the US but here in England, a certain school of business
>practice gives very little value to visual skill and creativity.
>
>Matthew
>
>
>Matthew Carey
>http://www.compulink.co.uk/~peckham/
Not to mention the parade of "friends" who want stuff done for free.
2Ksquared Design Studio
-- bke...@kendaco.telebyte.com
-- http://kendaco.telebyte.com/bkelton
-- http://www.webcom.com/~breid/beth.html
Find a job that you love and
you'll never work a day in your life.
Brian Pomeroy
>
> Sometimes it is worth donating something if you see fit, but as a
> rule, I do not see paying referrals coming from freebies. Usually a
> freebie will only result in a request for more freebies.
True. And especially on the Internet, the old "I'll pay you as soon as the
project starts making money" routine is a popular one. But young creatives can
gain value from volunteering their services (preferably to a charity or a cause of
their choosing), if only to get some experience, a positive reference, and
something for their portfolio.
--
**********************
Brian Pomeroy
Web Editor, SLACK Inc.
Author, "BeginnerNet: A Beginner's Guide to the Internet and the World Wide Web"
6900 Grove Rd., Thorofare, NJ 08086 USA
E-mail: bpom...@slackinc.com
WWW: http://www.slackinc.com/
**********************
DickWeltz
just
hit the "DOG" button or the "AIRPLANE" button or the "FOREST" button on my
keyboard.<<
You mean you *don't* do it that way?!?
When we translate for clients, we just hit the computer button that says
FRENCH or JAPANESE or ARABIC, etc.
s...@splicer.com
>As another angry artist, let me share my gripe of the day: The ignorant
>people who say, upon finding out that I do 95% computer generated
>illustration, "Oh, I thought you were a *real* artist."
>hit the "DOG" button or the "AIRPLANE" button or the "FOREST" button on my
>kill you that you spent all that time in art school when really all you
>had to do was go out and buy a computer?"
Yes. I have two things to add: One is that what burns me up even more
is talking with the people who call themselves artists or designers
but never had to deal with a figure-drawing class in their entire
school careers and do simply press the "dog" button (or grab it from
their CD-ROM). I hate to say it, but there is a real class of people
out there creating that impression for us.
Second, there actually is a way to point out the fallacy of the
impression that we really do nothing but let the computer do the work,
and that is to turn it around (in a friendly way of course) and put it
back in their lap. For instance: "Ha ha--yeah. So how's life up in
accounting since the computer does all the work for you? Still trying
to find ways to justify *your* living?" or "Oh, you use CAD? I though
you were a *real* engineer." Remember to keep your comments
lighthearted. A friendly jab strengthens a friendship, but an acrid
comment can lose you an account.
Steve
<s...@splicer.com>
Rick Martin
(kmo...@wwa.com) wrote:
>Another morsel of wisdom often bestowed upon me: "Doesn't it kill you
that you spent all that >time in art school when really all you had to do
was go out and buy a computer?"
I'll admit parts of school were rather tedious, but...
Computers allow untrained designers to create absolute garbage at an
extremely fast rate for a low, low price. It's as simple as that. It takes
more than a Mac or PC with a graphics program to produce acceptable
design. No matter how many times I see an ad or a website where a designer
used a default KPT filter, it always makes me laugh... And then I think
about the fact that the person who did the work was probably the one who
undercut me on my last job bid. And we all know by now that the client
will virtually (and foolishly) always go for the lower price.
Generally, I use a computer for execution, like a pencil or a paintbrush,
not for design conception; the computer is the last step in my creative
process, not the first.
So be glad for your art school education, it raises the quality of your
work. Not automatically, of course, but simply by the fact that you've
done more than read the instruction manual for Photoshop towards the
investment of what should be your passion. And if you're going to have
your work in the marketplace, believe me, it could really use another
talented individual with a grasp of what's going on as opposed to another
Just-Add-Water Instant Oatmeal Computer Designer.
Leslieann Cox
I nievely expected the demand of millions flooding towards me for these
colorful little diddlies. But I found everyone is an artist and an
expert, especially in Ireland. So my wild poppies faided in that season
and those Irish rainbows sent me home with a new unknown promise. I now
have focused myself in other areas that would sustain my life so that I can
paint and not feel the stress of survival. When painting becomes an
income I become anxious as if I was reliving the failures of Ireland.
Therefore my paintings suffer. Ive given most of my artwork away as gifts
of love. I want the freedom. I am an artist, as well as many other
things. I expect nothing therefore I can not get angry.
Leslieann Cox
lc...@oboe.calpoly.edu
God be with you.
rnstrong
according to their budget.
I had lunch with a direct mail professional the other day who is asking
$150.00 cdn per hour for his consulting expertise.
I have been paid more than that and I have been paid MUCH less.
However, it is time that "artists' smartened up. Good ones are worth
much more than you would think. Owning a computer and some software
doesn't make you a good designer anymore than owning a portable
typewriter would have made you a writer like Hemmingway.
If you want to be paid more, go after prospects who can afford to pay
more. But always be realistic about your talent. That way you will see
your weak areas and work hard to improve them. And then you will be paid
more because your work IS better than average.
Good Luck.
Rick
rnstrong
CC
(Matthew Carey) wrote:
>I don't know about the US but here in England, a certain school of
>business
>practice gives very little value to visual skill and creativity.
Here in the US it's a long standing tradition to seek out beginning
artists, (especially art students) to pour their blood out day and
night on work for the promise of a regular / paying job, only to use
their work for profit and then subsequently find another one to
similarly exploit next.
These people are often referred to as "Art Directors" who don't have
any ideas of their own, but know what they like once you've done it
for them. They suck you dry, spit you out and get paid more than any
of the others who actually do the work.
It's not WHAT you know it's WHO you know...
SIlencer
>Graphic Designers Sought by SOHO (NYC) Web Development Company
>Located in New York's Silicon Alley, the Myriad Agency is a full service
>Web design company. Using cutting-edge technology and peerless design,
>we develop progressive sites for interesting companies.
>We are currently looking for energetic, talented, and intelligent
>graphic designers interested in working on the World Wide Web. Viable
>candidates MUST know Photoshop, Quark, Illustrator and HTML 3.0. Cooler
>than average candidates will have knowledge of Director, Unix and Perl.
>This position is open immediately, salary is dependant on experience
>with the Internet and the World Wide Web, as well as general interface
>design. The range is from $25-32,000 a year plus benefits.
>Email your resume and URL(s):
>ma...@myriadagency.com
>or fax to: 212-334-5463
For $25-32,000 a year I wouldn't sweep the floors in your joint no
less design web pages for you slave drivers!....Wake up and smell the
coffee, If I know Photoshop, Quark, Illustrator AND HTML, I aint
workin for 25-32,000 a year pal!
What year you people livin in!??....it's scumbag companies like you
guys that ruin this economy because some poor starving village crack
head artist WILL take your below scale paying job just to pay the
freakin rent in his rat trap apartment and ruin it for all of us true
publishing artists that deserve the $40-$75 per hour we are REALLY
worth in the open market! and even HIGHER in NYC!
You pricks should be ashamed of yourselves!!
R Blanchard
>
> Tiff Gorman wrote:
>
> > I am an artist/designer.
> > I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
> > blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
> > these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
> >
> > Tiff
>
> This is a bizarre message. If you only want to work for paying
> clients, then do so.
>
> Paul Harris
Yours is a more bizarre message. People who don't pay aren't clients.
--
Rick Blanchard zŹ
WWW pages:
'da trains!' -- http://members.aol.com/Ntrainszo/web/
SLIM RAILS -- http:members.aol.com/izoi/slim-rails/slim.html
home page - http://members.aol.com/izoi/web/
blanchard design -- http://members.aol.com/rkdatazo/web/
rb Art -- http://members.aol.com/rbArtzo/web/
Urban Eagle Designs -- http://members.aol.com/urbaneagle/web/
bid...@aztec.co.za
->Just because she is a creative person why should people assume that
->creativity can be had for nothing or very little.
While setting some business cards for a printer the other day, I came
across the name of a guy I last saw about 25 years ago. I phoned him up
to say "Hi", and upon discovering that I am now involved with the printing
trade, he immediately wanted to know whether I could arrange some
free-or-ultra-cheap goodies for a club he's involved with. Sheesh !!!
Fortunately for me, I was able to sidestep the matter by referring him back
to the printer that he was already dealing with, and refusing to interfere
with one of my client's own clients .....
->I don't know about the US but here in England, a certain school of business
->practice gives very little value to visual skill and creativity.
Believe me, thats a breed well known here in South Africa too ... :-(((
Cheers
Frank R Pizer
Bid...@aztec.co.za
bid...@aztec.co.za
On 15 Apr 1996 22:22:19 -0500,
kmo...@sashimi.wwa.com (kmo...@wwa.com)
posted a message re: " Re: I am an ANGRY ARTIST! (Part 2)"
->As another angry artist, let me share my gripe of the day: The ignorant
->people who say, upon finding out that I do 95% computer generated
->illustration, "Oh, I thought you were a *real* artist."
Heheheheheh .... the power of advertising .... they've seen so much hype
that they've started to believe it I guess ...
->That's right--when I want to draw a dog or an airplane or a forest, I just
->hit the "DOG" button or the "AIRPLANE" button or the "FOREST" button on my
->keyboard.
Well, do as I have several times .... I just offered them the keyboard and
mouse ..... some didn't try, those that did now have more respect for my
capabilities.
->Kristin, banging her head on the keyboard.
Yes, but isn't it so nice when you stop <grin>
nbfa
had to do was go out and buy a computer?"
I'm angry too...at a thread some weeks ago along the lines of "I'm a REAL
artist and I'm angry that all you computer people have to do is buy a piece of
software and you get all the work". Then a calmed down when I realized that a
real artist, regardless of favoured media, would not have such an attitude.
Mustta been some lamer....
J Kirby Inwood
they only get that rate for some of their hours. Much of their time is
unbillable, spent prospecting, housekeeping, twiddling thumbs waiting
for phone to ring etc etc....
Don't be overly impressed by these claims. I would rather bill 40
hours a week each week at say $50 per then an our here and there at
$150 per
kirby
rnstrong <rnst...@magmacom.com> wrote:
AngryMan
<Pine.A32.3.91.960416...@harp.aix.calpoly.edu>,
Leslieann Cox <lc...@harp.aix.calpoly.edu> wrote:
> I expect nothing therefore I can not get angry.
You make me angry.
--
--------------------
www.angry.org
--------------------
BKelton
>You will be paid what the other person feels it is worth to them and
>according to their budget.
>
>I had lunch with a direct mail professional the other day who is asking
>$150.00 cdn per hour for his consulting expertise.
>
>I have been paid more than that and I have been paid MUCH less.
>
>However, it is time that "artists' smartened up. Good ones are worth
>much more than you would think. Owning a computer and some software
>doesn't make you a good designer anymore than owning a portable
>typewriter would have made you a writer like Hemmingway.
>
>If you want to be paid more, go after prospects who can afford to pay
>more. But always be realistic about your talent. That way you will see
>your weak areas and work hard to improve them. And then you will be paid
>more because your work IS better than average.
>
>Good Luck.
>
>Rick
Also one more note on this subject. I have long felt that
if I get $20/hr or $10 or $5 or $100 I have to judge exactly
what the "art" I am doing on the computer really is. Much of
it is "throwaway art", just digital nothingness that will not and
can not even be recycled. It's just ones and zeros. If your work
is going to be duplicated a jillion times then the price should
of course reflect the nature of the art.
H Doan
>People who claim to get $xxx per hour often neglect to mention that
>they only get that rate for some of their hours. Much of their time is
>unbillable, spent prospecting, housekeeping, twiddling thumbs waiting
>for phone to ring etc etc....
>Don't be overly impressed by these claims. I would rather bill 40
>hours a week each week at say $50 per then an our here and there at
>$150 per
>kirby
>
>>
thats why you see so many of them here... twiddling their thumbs and surfing
the net. Heck with the modem on, how do you expect to get the phone to ring???
HD
J. Eric Hendrickson
>> blatantly expect my services for free....
>
>To Tiff (Who is ticked!)
> Yeah...I hear ya!
> I've been doing graphic design since 1965, I have had my own graphic
>design firm since 1979 and I STILL get many people asking for free
>services.
>suggest to you to discipline yourself to reject any free request and stick
>to your guns about needing your fees paid (50% up front if possible).
>the fact that your time (AND TALENT) is valuable and needs to be paid
>for. If they pay you an advance then they have made an investment and MAY
>gain respect for the value of your service.
>capabilities. They may think you are the lucky one and that it is such a
>joy for you to do your art and to do so naturally. Therefore they may play
>on this and ask you to do it for free....TO BE NICE TO THEM! Forget it!
>Tell them this is your livelihood and you need to get paid just as THEY
--snip--
Thank you for putting it soooo well! Working for free is not working! The
entire concept of this thread makes no sense to me whatsoever! I'm not in
business to give things away. Designers who do this not only make it harder on
themselves, but also for other legitimate businesspeople.
I have "given away" only two jobs in my entire 15-year career! Both times
because I blew deadlines. I felt so horrible that I knew the only way I could
live with myself was to send a credit voucher and letter of apology along with
the invoice--but the job was still billed! The client knew exactly how much
the job *would have* cost (and provided me with proof of loss). Doing this
upheld my integrity and also let the client know that quality design does not
come cheap! Having happened early in our business relationship, I believe it
made them even more confident in my company. They both are still very good
clients.
Anyone who designs for "free" does a great disservice to our profession. Never
work for free. Never take a portfolio with you on a cold call! If you need to,
offer new clients a hand-delivered "reduced-price" proof COD. Don't let them
keep the proof. Doing so seems to work just fine for me ... at least until we
have established a trusting business relationship ... then things change a
bit.
Eric.
Daniel Cohen
>I am an artist/designer.
>I thought I would post my general gripe and anger about people who
>blatantly expect my services for free. What the fuck do people want
>these days? My time is worth as much as anyone's.
>Tiff
>~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
>Tiff Gorman - Artist/Designer - ti...@tiffg.demon.co.uk
>~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
>http://www.maui.net/~babblero/tiffg.html
>~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
I DRAW BY HOBBY AND I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU !!!!!!!
CONGRATULATIONS.
DANIEL COHEN
coh...@einstein.com.ar
MKColling
> Perhaps you have failed to clearly convey that your services are
> financially valuable. The fact that they desire your services means you're
> already halfway to your goal.
>
> Sounds to me like you're just lacking in negotiating skills..
No, it's more than that. People in general just seem to have an awful lot
of nerve when it comes to trying to take advantage of artists. I'm a fine
artist with my own gallery. That means I have commercial rent, lights,
phone, advertising, maintenance, etc., to pay for from the proceeds of my
sales. It should be self-evident that I'm not running a free dog and pony
show.
Yet strangers have had the gall to walk into my gallery and asked for
donations of art work - people who never have purchased any of my work and
who never will. Other strangers think they have some sort of license to
come in and try to dicker prices down to half... do they dicker with other
professionals? I doubt it. And then there are all the "worthy
organizations" who like to run art auctions with donated work.
Well, when I can buy a gall bladder operation for $75 at a charity
auction, perhaps I'll reconsider donating art work; until then, donations
devalue everything that any decent person ever paid money for. By the way,
the song and dance they give about the benefits of exposure gained from
giving away work free or lending thousands of dollars of framed work to
decorate the walls of a restaurant or whatever - that's claptrap, a con.
Nobody buys the cow if the milk is free.
Barbie Kew
>Find a job that you love and
>you'll never work a day in your life.
Find a job that you love and you'll work all your life,
often to the exclusion of living a fuller life.
--
888888888888888888
Barbie Kew
Smoke'n 'em.
888888888888888888
kmo...@sashimi.wwa.com
Barbie Kew <Bar...@smoke.com> wrote:
>In article <317571e2...@news.telebyte.com>, bke...@kendaco.telebyte.com says...
>
>>Find a job that you love and
>>you'll never work a day in your life.
>
>Find a job that you love and you'll work all your life,
>often to the exclusion of living a fuller life.
So it's better to have a job you hate?
--
KNM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "If the B-2 is invisible, just announce you've built 100 of them and |
| don't build them." |
| --House Budget Committee Chairman, John Kasich,|
| on further production of the stealth bombers.|
------------------------------------------------------------------------
kmo...@sashimi.wwa.com
>
>
>
>On Mon, 15 Apr 1996 18:29:46 +0000,
>mat...@peckham.compulink.co.uk (Matthew Carey)
>posted a message re: " Re: I am an ANGRY ARTIST!!!!!"
>
>
> ->Just because she is a creative person why should people assume that
> ->creativity can be had for nothing or very little.
>
>While setting some business cards for a printer the other day, I came
>across the name of a guy I last saw about 25 years ago. I phoned him up
>to say "Hi", and upon discovering that I am now involved with the printing
>trade, he immediately wanted to know whether I could arrange some
>free-or-ultra-cheap goodies for a club he's involved with. Sheesh !!!
Then, of course, there are the people who want to give you a *tiny* amount
of money to do a huge job, and expect you to be so flattered and grateful.
I once had a guy call me up and ask me to do a caricature of his entire
office for an office party (12 people total). After he described the
project, he said, "AND, I'd be willing to pay you $25.00 for it!"
Ooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhh......now I can go on vacation! Needless to say, I
told him if he could find someone who would do that kind of work for that
amount of money, by all means go for it.
Thomas LaPointe
>
> In article <us014276-140...@38.12.1.195>,
> us01...@interramp.com (Jay H Williams) wrote:
> >> blatantly expect my services for free....
> >
<<BIG SNIP>>
> Thank you for putting it soooo well! Working for free is not working! The
> entire concept of this thread makes no sense to me whatsoever! I'm not in
> business to give things away. Designers who do this not only make it harder on
> themselves, but also for other legitimate businesspeople.
>
> I have "given away" only two jobs in my entire 15-year career! Both times
> because I blew deadlines. I felt so horrible that I knew the only way I could
> live with myself was to send a credit voucher and letter of apology along with
> the invoice--but the job was still billed! The client knew exactly how much
> the job *would have* cost (and provided me with proof of loss). Doing this
> upheld my integrity and also let the client know that quality design does not
> come cheap! Having happened early in our business relationship, I believe it
> made them even more confident in my company. They both are still very good
> clients.
>
> Anyone who designs for "free" does a great disservice to our profession. Never
> work for free. Never take a portfolio with you on a cold call! If you need to,
> offer new clients a hand-delivered "reduced-price" proof COD. Don't let them
> keep the proof. Doing so seems to work just fine for me ... at least until we
> have established a trusting business relationship ... then things change a
> bit.
>
> Eric.
"In God we trust; all others pay cash", is a slogan that has always been
near and dear to my heart. My church always gets my services for free,
and they are very good about not abusing my service. However, if there
won't be any tangible benefit from work for other non-profits such as
GOOD exposure, they can find some other sap to do their work for free.
--
Thomas LaPointe <t...@bartola.com> | http://www.bartola.com
"...howsoever we shall be called | B&T Professional Services
to make our exit, we will die | "Graphic & Web Design
free men." - Josiah Quincy, Jr. | for the 21st Century"