survey time
woodsie
who here is actually qualified (ie. with a design degree, dipolma etc) ?.....
and who is just a 'wannabe'/amateur/hobbist?....seems like this ng has
more of the latter.
HKAdvertising
of college.
Gordon Moat
Associate of Science with emphasis in Graphic Design, with honours
Bachelor of Art in Applied Arts and Sciences - Art, cum laude, with distinction
in Art
I have also been handling camera since I was very little. I have exhibited works
of oil painting, pastels, and mixed media.
I also maintain several professional affiliations.
And I am probably one of the poorest "designers" in this NG.
I do not think that formal training or making buckets of money qualifies anyone
as a designer, artist, or whatever. I saw many people graduate from college that
would have trouble designing junk mail, or voting ballots. I have met people
with no formal training that could create amazing designs. There are also people
with different backgrounds, and/or degrees, that are great designers, i.e. David
Carson.
I heard there is a movement in Canada to certify Graphic Design professionals.
Perhaps this may impact the future. I am glad I went to college, but I do not
feel it is absolutely necessary to make one a "professional designer".
I am curious to see how others in this NG respond.
Ciao!
Gordon Moat
Alliance Graphique Studio
<http://www.allgstudio.com>
Carol Ott
(print only) and play around with the web stuff.
--Carol
"woodsie" <woo...@starmail.com> wrote in message
news:woodsie-1501...@ocmax2-219.dialup.optusnet.com.au...
woodsie
"Carol Ott" <cs...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I have two degrees -- one BA, English and one MFA. I work as a designer
>(print only) and play around with the web stuff.
MFA?
Carol Ott
--Carol
"woodsie" <woo...@starmail.com> wrote in message
news:woodsie-1501...@ocmax2-219.dialup.optusnet.com.au...
woodsie
folks, lets not go down THAT path of arguing the merits of it.
John Silver
I have recieved about six years of one-on-one mentoring from two of the top
designers in the Pacific Northwest. I have done design work for Starbucks,
Nordstrom, Microsoft, Boeing, Neiman Marcus, America's Blood Centers
Foundation, PriceCostco, Fred Meyer, Universal Studios, etc...
Damn! if I had just gotten a degree! =(
--J
woodsie wrote in message ...
Carol Ott
job. Especially if you ever want to teach.
--Carol
"woodsie" <woo...@starmail.com> wrote in message
news:woodsie-1501...@ocmax2-219.dialup.optusnet.com.au...
The Devil's Advocate©
>I heard there is a movement in Canada to certify Graphic Design professionals.
Certify? How will this be done I wonder? Do you think there'd be some objective
test to designate who is an authentic designer?
--
regards,
The Devil's Advocate
ICQ 8two541559
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
"listen to both sides, the truth
usually falls in the middle"
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
The Devil's Advocate©
>I have no degree.
>
>I have recieved about six years of one-on-one mentoring from two of the top
>designers in the Pacific Northwest. I have done design work for Starbucks,
>Nordstrom, Microsoft, Boeing, Neiman Marcus, America's Blood Centers
>Foundation, PriceCostco, Fred Meyer, Universal Studios, etc...
Sounds cool. Do you have some links to your work?
John Silver
http://therapscallion.homestead.com
--J
The Devil's AdvocateŠ wrote in message ...
Madman
instructor. 20 minutes into the class and I was teaching it. Teaching
attracts the very best, and also the very worst in some ways. How many
teachers get fired for not teaching well? Not many. On the flip side. I've
had a handful of teachers that I will always remember and be indebted too.
Madman
"Carol Ott" <cs...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:x9u86.18639$ag.5...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Carol Ott
degree, or an accredited university. Good luck.
--Carol
"Madman" <madma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:i4v86.39914$nj5.3...@news02.optonline.net...
Madman
pumped out another kid, the guy replacing her had no degree in teaching, and
was still working on his certificate. It was a state school. He was a bad
teacher, but a good designer. I helped him with some typesetting once or
twice.
The school system as a whole is a joke, both at the highschool and college
level. I'm not talking suburban schools or well funded schools here. I'm
talking shit falling apart ratholes. Combine that with technical colleges
that are more worried with the bottom line then with the quality of the
students you turn out, and you have a joke education system for at least 30%
of the schools. Considering the importance of a solid foundation. I find
that rather depressing.
Madman
"Carol Ott" <cs...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:sev86.19146$ag.5...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Carol Ott
people who show up for job interviews looking like they're gong to rob a
bank on the way home.
I'm so glad I did most of my schooling in Europe.
--Carol
"Madman" <madma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ZQv86.40361$nj5.3...@news02.optonline.net...
ogra
composed digitally before I transferred them to cloth, so I ended up doing
graphic work straight out of school.
-O.
The Devil's Advocate©
>Here is the old site...my new one will be up in the next few weeks.
>http://therapscallion.homestead.com
Nice work.
Al Mardeuse
Some of us eartned our stripes through OJT (on the job training). My
route to design was long and circuitous and partially envolved the
losing of one opportunity and beign presented with another.
Whether a person has a degree,etc. or has formal schooling let them be
judged by thier work. If an amatewur offers unsound advise don't take
it. The majority of the posts I visit here have been thoughtful and
usually helpful. What better place is there to get nonjudgemental
advise from your peers. We all run into blocks which need to be
overcome and this is one place that helps.
I'm not sure what motivates your curiosity about the posters
qualifications?!?!
In article
<woodsie-1501...@ocmax2-219.dialup.optusnet.com.au>,
woo...@starmail.com (woodsie) wrote:
§just wondering....
§
§who here is actually qualified (ie. with a design degree, dipolma etc) ?.....
§
§and who is just a 'wannabe'/amateur/hobbist?....seems like this ng has
§more of the latter.
--
"Nothing is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientous stupidity."
Dr. M.L.King
Gordon Moat
> On Sun, 14 Jan 2001 17:12:46 -0800, Gordon Moat <mo...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >I heard there is a movement in Canada to certify Graphic Design professionals.
>
> Certify? How will this be done I wonder?
The first part, as I remember, was the establishment of a certification board. Not
sure about the details, but possibly with government involvement/authorization.
> Do you think there'd be some objective
> test to designate who is an authentic designer?
>
The original proposal involved different tests. This was supposed to encompass
differing specialities and skill levels. I do not think that the intention was for
one all encompassing test.
The original information about this was covered in Graphis, Critique, and I.D. a
few times over the last two years. I have not heard much about this, and I would
imagine it may not get off the ground. I could probably dig up the articles, since
I have many design magazines as resource material.
This sort of thing works very easily in the photography world. Though instead of
testing, the work one creates, and the desired affiliation, are the means of
certification. In other words, those who want to become certified as specialists,
will join an organization that supports their interests and skill sets. This is a
bit different than AIGA or GAG.
Dimitri
I don't care the interpretation of 'qualified' you're using.
It's not this black and white.
woodsie
just asking a question
:P
In article <150120010130386601%a...@javanet.com>, Al Mardeuse
Peggy Coquet
around this group because I am a graphic designer who designs tabloid
newspapers for (mostly) non-profit groups. I don't call myself an "artist."
I rarely create original art. In a pre-computer world, I was a paste-up
person, typesetter, page-make-up worker, etc.
But I have a skill, a trade, that earns me a living. I have no formal
education for anything I do. I have been a journalist too, but never went to
J-school. I am a locally-published writer who doesn't have an English
degree. I'm also a mother - and we all know the education for that is ALL
"OJT"!
So - first you have to define design.graphics. I've never made a web page,
have no desire to learn how. I picked up a paintbrush a few times in my
youth, but stopped before I did any real harm. My pen-and-ink work is for
figuring out layouts. Yet, I'm a graphic designer.
Go figure.
--
Peggy Coquet
PC Desktop Design
"woodsie" <woo...@starmail.com> wrote in message
news:woodsie-1501...@ocmax2-219.dialup.optusnet.com.au...
Paul Hansen
I've got a couple, but that dates back 12 years ago, so I can't really
remember the details too well...
I've read through the replies, and I feel I must add a point about education.
Yes, you can become an absolutely fantastic designer/whatever without a
formal education, but in general, that is the exception, not the norm. And
the education serves a real purpose - it will teach you the basics, yes,
but it also proves one thing to anybody hiring you: that you have the
commitment to see something through. Probably more important than the
portfolio you'll have at the end of school, since they usually dismiss it
completely anyway.
Paul Hansen
--
Japan Sports Car - basic information about Japanese market sports cars, sedans, and yes, wagons
http://www2.gol.com/users/polarbr/sportscar
for some of my graphics, add /pbg ; )
Stan Wojda
to teach in High School and what are called BOCES schools. (Vocational training
schools) Now, in Illinois I can teach only art in High Schools and in
elementary schools as a guest artist. No state certification is neccessary to
teach at a University. A peer review panel really are the ones that selects
the faculty out of the available candidates. This often leads to highly
political appointments, and some strange choices. Since I only taught one
course I was able to stay out ot the university's politics for the most part.
The real problem lies in the fact that courses are planned without any
connection to the real world and in Universities by people in the Fine arts
dept. that tend to look down on designers.
I stopped teaching when the Univrsity decided that they would put all the
effort behind web design and moved the design curriculum for the School of Fine
Arts to the School of Communications on the theory that in order to be a web
designer you didn't need any art background!
So all the drawing and painting courses were dropped. That, and there was no
need to train anyone for print anymore.
You are right, the whole higher educational system is geared to generating
income rather than educating students. Worse than that is they give students a
cirriculum that have little to do with what real skill are required for long
term success in a field. They want to be able to pump out kids who get that
first job, that will look good on their stats.
I'm not bitter, even thought I might sound like I am in this post. But I am
discouraged. We are turning out kids that have a very warped view of what
skills are neccessary to survive in the real world. That is in large part due
to the fact that a lot of students want that degree with as little effort to
get it as possible. And universities are sensitive to their wishes, they want
that $40 thousand in tuition. So tell them that they don't need to learn hard
skills such as drawing and they will flock to your university. Now that I'm
working full time in a studio I see the results of this way of thinking. Very
few of the portfolios I see are worth the time and effort of looking at them.
And the students are demanding totally unrealistic wages. I applaud those who
take the time and effort to learn their craft. It is a shame though that often
to do so they have to go outside the normal educational channels.
Sjeiti
got a BA in interaction design... and an MA in interactive
multimedia...
is that enough?
On Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:47:10 +1000, woo...@starmail.com (woodsie)
wrote:
Madman
By no means do I blame just the school system. Alot, if not the majority of
problems are from the student. Very few push themselves to make an even half
assed effort. Although I consider myself an exception I also know with a
strong mentor I could have really pushed myself harder then I did. Lifes
distractions tend to really get in the way. Teachers should be guides who
focus your creative ability and show you the mechanics of how and why
something is done.
Madman
"Stan Wojda" <srw...@mtco.com> wrote in message
news:3A6311FC...@mtco.com...
Drew
> focus your creative ability and show you the mechanics of how and why
> something is done.
In a perfect world, yes. Unfortunately politics, tenure and complacency leaves
the best intentioned student at a loss.
Drew
Gene
wrote:
>just wondering....
>
>who here is actually qualified (ie. with a design degree, dipolma etc) ?.....
>
>and who is just a 'wannabe'/amateur/hobbist?....seems like this ng has
>more of the latter.
And which are you?
Stan Wojda
All any teacher can do is to try and motivate you and point you in the right
direction to find the answers. A good teacher doesn't try to hand out a list
of facts. They try to get you to think out how to solve the problems on your
own. A design teacher doesn't teach design, but rather, how to think like a
designer.
Madman
Madman
"Madman" <madma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:78K86.43737$nj5.4...@news02.optonline.net...
Carol Ott
that will hire you as anything past clerical worker if you don't have a
degree. At least that was the deal when I was in college.
--Carol
"Paul Hansen" <pol...@no.spam.please.gol.com> wrote in message
news:polarbr-1501012301380001@tc-1-1-
<snip>
Carol Ott
forced to also be social workers, police officers, therapists, and parents.
They don't have enough time and energy to do any real teaching beyond the
bare bones basics.
The good teachers burn out (see above for why) and the ones that stay are
below average.
--Carol
"Madman" <madma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:78K86.43737$nj5.4...@news02.optonline.net...
woodsie
<ge...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Assoc. dip applied art/finished art...
Asooc. dip CAAD (computer aided art & design) specialising in interactive
multimedia
Carol Ott
--Carol
"woodsie" <woo...@starmail.com> wrote in message
news:woodsie-1601...@ocmax1-134.dialup.optusnet.com.au...
Madman
Part of me wants to teach (I've done it before). Another part says if I
really want to show anyone something It would have to be one on one, with a
willing student.
Madman
"Carol Ott" <cs...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:RNO86.38736$U4.11...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Tor de Vries
> who here is actually qualified (ie. with a design degree, dipolma etc) ?.....
>
> and who is just a 'wannabe'/amateur/hobbist?....seems like this ng has
> more of the latter.
1. I have a Bachelor's in "Studio Art" -- I concentrated in graphic design,
but I took a lot of other art courses too (illustration, printmaking,
ceramics, painting, yadda yadda).
2. A degree does not qualify you as a professional. I was a professional
before I got my degree; I dropped out of college to take a good job offer
(isn't that why you go to college?), and then finally came to my senses and
went back to get my degree.
3. An old quote about degrees: You know what a B.S. is, right? Well, an
M.S. is "More of the Same" and a Ph.D is just "Piled higher and Deeper".
tdv
glorywest
I have a BA in Communications with a
specialization in Visual Media. Well over twenty
years in the graphic arts industry. Started when I
was 13 on the school yearbook and newspaper and
never stopped.
I am very disappointed in many portfolios I see as
the applicants have no art about their work. They
may have skills (and even a degree)--but no art. I
did not have art when I started (not enough
anyway). I only had a love for the work. I could
do it for hours and I still loved to come to work.
I figured I had to go into this as a profession
because if I was going to have to do it every day
I better love it. It took me at least 20 years to
get art. All 20. I'm not kidding. There are some
in this newsgroup with just plain old talent. They
have art, they have a sense of design. They may
not have the skills or experience yet, but they
have art.
Oz Trad
> I am very disappointed in many portfolios I see as
> the applicants have no art about their work. They
> may have skills (and even a degree)--but no art. I
> did not have art when I started (not enough
> anyway). I only had a love for the work. I could
> do it for hours and I still loved to come to work.
> I figured I had to go into this as a profession
> because if I was going to have to do it every day
> I better love it. It took me at least 20 years to
> get art. All 20. I'm not kidding. There are some
> in this newsgroup with just plain old talent. They
> have art, they have a sense of design. They may
> not have the skills or experience yet, but they
Very interesting comment. Are you participating in the 14 day exercise?
I would love to see your work and I would love for you to see mine. I
feel the same as you do.
regards, Oz
--
remove underwear to reply
Tor de Vries
>> the applicants have no art about their work. They
>> may have skills (and even a degree)--but no art. I
>> did not have art when I started (not enough
>> anyway). I only had a love for the work. I could
>> do it for hours and I still loved to come to work.
>
> I would love to see your work and I would love for you to see mine. I
> feel the same as you do.
Same.
Mike C.
>
> LOL
>
> I have a BA in Communications with a
> specialization in Visual Media. Well over twenty
> years in the graphic arts industry. Started when I
> was 13 on the school yearbook and newspaper and
> never stopped.
>
> I am very disappointed in many portfolios I see as
> the applicants have no art about their work. They
> may have skills (and even a degree)--but no art. I
> did not have art when I started (not enough
> anyway). I only had a love for the work. I could
> do it for hours and I still loved to come to work.
> I figured I had to go into this as a profession
> because if I was going to have to do it every day
> I better love it. It took me at least 20 years to
> get art. All 20. I'm not kidding. There are some
> in this newsgroup with just plain old talent. They
> have art, they have a sense of design. They may
> not have the skills or experience yet, but they
> have art.
Sense of design, an "eye" for what is right and what is wrong.
Some have it as a small child, some never see it and are unaware
that they don't have it.
":^) ®
--
Mike C.
* Logo Design
* DHTML & GIF Animation
* Custom Graphics for YOUR Site!
Stop by and see if my skills and talents are up to your standards.
Site at: http://www.artistmike.com
NEW SITE at: http://www.mikeslogoland.com/
mailto:mi...@artistmike.com?Subject=Logo.Project
Mike C.
glorywest
and other work up in ADG. I have primarily an
advertising and print background. I taught myself
(I have taken only a few classes) all the computer
graphics and web stuff. I've added working in web
design the last 4 years. I'm still learning of
course. I have programmers do the html etc. I only
do the design and create the graphics. On the
EarthWalk site I have two worker bees now (it's so
wonderful to have staff!!!) so I can work more on
content creation with the various departments and
all the marketing and advertising that goes with
this job as well. I'm a creative director,
marketing director, and advertising director all
rolled up into one. Startups are a blast. You get
a chance to do everything. Actually, you have no
choice. So it's been quite a whirlwind for me. I
used to post a great deal, but I have had no time
now. Too much to do and learn plus I need a life.
So all the fun on ADG had to go. I still check in
as I learn so much here.
I am very tempted to do my own 14 days. I try to
do art everyday in my work. It seems such a luxury
(and one that would drive me insane) to create
solely for myself. I'm so used to creating for a
reason. I am going to make an effort however. I'll
let you know whether I have any success.
Well.
Here goes with the urls:
http://www.earthwalk.com
http://www.usaerospace.com
http://www.caroleberk.com
I have logo work, ads and print work etc in pdf
format, but no where to post it at the moment. I
have not designed my own website of course. I
started, then stalled. My urls were enough to get
me work. I also used the pdf files as part of an
electronic portfolio I could submit to prospective
clients when I was working for myself. They were
quite successful at getting me appointments. My
regular portfolio is rather extensive (cause I'm
an oldster, ha!) so it's tough to cart all that
stuff around. I usually tailor a portfolio showing
to the client's specific needs.
I also use the Dan Turner method of finding
clients and make sure I'm approaching a client
that--has an immediate need, has a sense of a
reasonable budget, and has marketing materials
that need help!
godspeed you black hypemonger!
> just wondering....
Dan
>>>So it's been quite a whirlwind for me. I used to post a great deal, but I
have had no time now. Too much to do and learn plus I need a life. So all
the fun on ADG had to go. I still check in as I learn so much here.<<<
Well you are sorely missed, although I enjoy your posts when you check in.
You get total credit (I suppose others would say blame!) for my involvement
in ADG. I had been knocking about on the outer fringes for a few weeks (many
moons ago), occasionally posting, making trouble, and was a couple hours
away from unsubscribing from THIS madhouse when you invited me on the Love
Bus (anybody remember the ADG Love Bus?). That kept me involved for a few
more days until I found a groove. Since then, I have learned a ton 'o stuff
from my involvement.
Thanks, glorywest.
Dan
--
To reply, remove ooo from address
---------------------------------------------
glorywest <"glorywest"@megapathdsl .dot. net> > wrote in message ...
glorywest
You are ever so welcome. I'm glad you enjoyed it
enough to stick around. Aside from the occasional
cyberfisticuffs (which can make it more
interesting in here, oddly enough) this is a
wonderful place to learn. As I surfed viewing
everyone's work for the last couple years, I have
learned more about everything than I could have
imagined.
woodsie
"Carol Ott" <cs...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>What CAD program did you learn?
CAAD = computer aided art & design at RMIT....the course is now called
electronic design and multimedia...or something like that, using
photoshop, illustrator, quark, 3d software, director, video & sound
production and lots more.
>"woodsie" <woo...@starmail.com> wrote in message
>news:woodsie-1601...@ocmax1-134.dialup.optusnet.com.au...
>>
>>
Terry L. Griffin
good to see you again. still managing the department? i'm sure i could
use some of your wisdom in that area right about now. (i'm drowning!)
anyhow, drop a line sometime to let me know how things are going.
grif :)
Carol Ott
--Carol
"woodsie" <woo...@starmail.com> wrote in message
news:woodsie-1701...@ocmax9-128.dialup.optusnet.com.au...
Mike Minovski
woo...@starmail.com (woodsie) wrote:
> just wondering....
>
> who here is actually qualified (ie. with a design degree, dipolma
etc) ?.....
>
Well, going through the posts I saw nothing similar to my education
status, so I'd better mention it make the survey more representative :)
a) 4 1/2 years in Technical University with a degree in Industry
Automation (the degree system here is different but it must be
equivalent to M.Sc.)
b) 2 years of postgraduate university study in industrial design and
ergonomics (no degree except a certificate).
c) Related (and non-related) practice. All I have in graphic design is
10 years of (mostly) freelancing experience.
> and who is just a 'wannabe'/amateur/hobbist?....seems like this ng has
> more of the latter.
>
Hmmm... maybe this question is not very correct. Having successfully
earned a living on design (industrial & graphic) for more than 15 years
I wouldn't consider myself an amateur; yet my work is - and has always
been - my hobby, too.
And in design there is still oh so much that I 'wannabe'... :)
mike m.
--- Observing equilibrium. ---
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
glorywest
worked as an official employee sales have grown
from about $7 million to about $18 million. (we
have an enormous sales staff working their butts
off obviously)
You know I'm working' my butt off. You'd think it
would be smaller. It's so exciting though trying
to set all this up to grow with the company. It's
also exciting to use all my training from college
and see why it was all so important now. Funny how
that education is getting such a workout 20 years
later.
Mostly I have been struggling with materials,
labor and cost projections. As you seem to be. I
have a good handle on task and skills requirements
and a good understanding of all the manufacturing
and project planning side of things so that is a
huge help at setting up all this. It also helps me
to project labor needs and make my points with
shiny numbers. Management loves numbers. In color.
Just remember to add color and you're sure to be
even more persuasive. HA!
Terry L. Griffin
hire a production assistant who can help take some of the load off my
designers. from that point, my mission is to shape up the productivity
of the department. things have been done the same inefficient way for so
long, it's gonna take some real changes to get things where my
higher-ups want them to be. AND a couple of extra hours in the day
wouldn't hurt. :) take care.
grif
David A. Burgess
post-secondary education.
I am a self-educated professional.
~DAB
woodsie wrote:
> just wondering....
>
> who here is actually qualified (ie. with a design degree, dipolma etc) ?.....
>
> and who is just a 'wannabe'/amateur/hobbist?....seems like this ng has
> more of the latter.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
"eCommunications for Global Business"
----------------------------------------------------------------
David A. Burgess - Writer/Team Leader - Cliotools.com
http://www.cliotools.com/ email: da...@cliotools.com