Feedback/Critique please
JP Kabala
I've overlaid the reference image in the lower right.
I just saw one obvious mistake (no reflected light on the shoulder line--
arrgh) I'm sure there are others, but I've been staring at it too long.
The beard looks too dense to me, but I'm not sure how to fix that
I need fresh eyes, please. I need to finalize this before Monday.
Suggestions welcome.
Image is on my site at
http://www.jpkabala.com/images/bert4.jpg
--
JP Kabala
www.jpkabala.com
woodsie
the left eye looks odd.
the nose looks broken.
beard too hard edged.
hand & arm bit too gorilla like.
i'd say the guy has just left the pub and gotten beaten by the mrs when he
got home?
JP Kabala
>
> the left eye looks odd.
> the nose looks broken.
made changes, though the real deal is very "not straight"
> beard too hard edged.
still working on this
> hand & arm bit too gorilla like
hmmmmm--this will take some work....
Ozman Trad
"iehsmith" <inezhsmit...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:BD5222E0.2487F%inezhsmit...@earthlink.net...
> On 8/25/04 10:32 AM, JP Kabala uttered:
> The big thing that bothers me here is that the actual man has a
half-smile,
> but in your rendering he just looks slack jawed. Did he say remove all the
> wrinkles or something? If so, let him know it's a mistake.
>
> The wrinkling and eye baggage are part of what makes the smile and that's
> completely missing. The worry lines are missing that give his face a
> semblance of intelligence.
>
> The left eye is still wrong... too scooped around the iris and it seems
> you're trying to show eyelid where none shows. To much iris showing in
both
> eyes, and they're different sizes. The upper curve of the right eye is too
> rounded.
>
> The lip is too far to down and to the left and the whole right cheek is
> wrong... smile lines and shadows gone, it's too long and looks pulled donw
> like hanging flesh.
>
> The hand is a complete redo, me thinks.
>
> I don't know what program you're working; assuming painter which I don't
> have; but, can you not turn the whole canvas so you can get a better
> perspective?
>
> The man has a great expression and your piece is devoid of that
completely.
> It looks as though the man had nooded off in a stooper and just woke, only
> opening his eyes. I expect to see drool running down his beard just about
> where you did put that light streak on the left side.
>
> And yes, the beard is much too dense and too defined an edge.
>
> I know it doesn't sound like it, but I've always love your work. It seems
> like your hearts not in this one, to so completely lose all personality
and
> expression in the face. There's just no human in this rendering.
>
> Having seen your amazing work, I think you know what's wrong here and just
> want someone to tell you to start over;)
>
>
> inez
>
JP Kabala
exactly why it seems to suck so badly and whether I
can salvage any of it or whether I should just start over.
And I thought fresh eyes might be able to say--
"You dufus! Look at ......"
The first two iterations were actually better,
The RAW SKETCH was actually better.
the hell of it is that if I overlay the photo or the
sketch on the canvas, the proportions and
lines are right, but the contouring and volumes are way off
"Ozman Trad" <o...@underwearozmantrad.com> wrote in message
news:u14Xc.2673$2F.1583@trnddc05...
48073
> I was just trying to decide
>exactly why it seems to suck so badly and whether I
>can salvage any of it or whether I should just start over.
When in doubt, it always sucks.
When in doubt, one only hesitates to admit it to one's self.
48073.
48073
>the hell of it is that if I overlay the photo or the
>sketch on the canvas, the proportions and
>lines are right, but the contouring and volumes are way off
That shows that photography / painting are two different crafts.
48073.
Orchid
Parts of it look quite good, esp. the head hair and forehead (although
the forehead looks a bit smoother than the source picture).
The main problems I see are that his right eye looks distorbed rather
than properly "squashed" by the flesh of the cheek pushing up that side
of his face a bit. It looks too droopy on the top lid and the bag under
his eye looks like it is too diagonal rather than rounded under the eye.
Also, although the hair on the beard looks good, it seems as though it's
"pasted" onto his face rather than attached to it. The edges of the
hairs are smoothed off rather than go into his face. Also, the lip on
the left side looks droopy and distorted.
It seems that you're painting by studying the look of each part rather
than observing the way a face naturally comes together. This has caused
some of the more obvious features to be exaggerated rather than fit his
face in a more natural way.
Also, the overall effect is too smooth and looks airbrushed. If this was
the effect you wanted, then it worked. However, for me, it makes his
face look a bit "melted".
I don't wish to be discouraging as I think it is very difficult to paint
on a digital canvas and you appear to have done pretty well given the
difficulty of the subject matter (a detailed face) and your media.
To give you a better idea of the symmetry issues you're having problems
with, you may want to open your art on a layer and reduce the opacity to
50%. Place the original photo behind it and scale it to fit the
dimensions of your painting. I'm not suggesting you trace the picture
but use it as a guide for "problem areas". You can reset the opacity of
your picture back to 100% and try to work on some of the problems.
Good luck.
Orchid
JP Kabala
I've scrapped nearly all of it and have started over
from my preliminaries-- There was too much to fix
Hopefully this time it will look
less sucky.
"RanXerox" <we...@theEndofOilAndIFeelFine.org> wrote in message
news:weare-CAE474....@news.telus.net...
> In article <1gj3a87.xzjxkbmkdarkN%orc...@somewhere.net>,
> orc...@somewhere.net (Orchid) wrote:
>
> > It seems that you're painting by studying the look of each part rather
> > than observing the way a face naturally comes together.
>
> An astute observation...
Gem
Are you working in Painter or PS?
maybe we could see your re-working when you're finished?
---
Gem
JP Kabala
it is in a pre-release test state, but it is neither Painter nor Photoshop.
Not to make excuses, but that was one of the issues with the first couple
of iterations-- untested and unfamiliar tools which act like neither
Painter's
nor any other app I'm more familiar with.
Here's another revision of the face, overlaid on the last one---
I haven't started rebuilding the hand yet.
The eyes are better, and I think the beard looks more natural, and there's
less "airbrushed porn star effect" on the skin
It's still not a portfolio piece, but I'm less nauseated by this
one. (LOL)
http://www.jpkabala.com/images/bert6a.jpg
"Gem" <gemp...@aol.comITITITIT> wrote in message
news:20040826155434...@mb-m11.aol.com...
oleander
"JP Kabala" <j...@jpkabala.com> wrote in message
news:0msXc.2311$Cc.256@trnddc07...
> Unfortunately, I can't really discuss what software I'm using as
> it is in a pre-release test state, but it is neither Painter nor
Photoshop.
> Not to make excuses, but that was one of the issues with the first couple
> of iterations-- untested and unfamiliar tools which act like neither
> Painter's
> nor any other app I'm more familiar with.
If you are asking for feedback on your skills, manipulation of, and the
capabilities of the software you are testing... I think you've done an
excellent job (particularly as you've done this free-hand -- rare these
days). If you are asking for feedback on your personal talents as a digital
portrait artist... I think you've done a good, but not remarkable, job (I
don't think you're asking that though).
Doing portraits is one of the hardest jobs there will ever be. Not only is
there great technical skill involved but more important is the feeling the
artist gets from viewing, interacting, or in lieu of personal contact --
intimately imagining that subject as a real person with history. Your
portrait does not give that feeling. Think of portraits you've seen from
absurdly abstract, even child like in technique, to photo-realism that give
a strong feeling about that person's nature. This lack of personality seems
to be a common problem with digital art. But it's also a common problem with
portraiture in general. You've got some talent and are using/developing
it -- just needs a bit more go-for-the-gusto.
Having said all that. I can hardly draw a straight/crooked/curved line
anymore. Heck I'm making a living doing office admin/ book-keeping these
days.
Don't know what the beta-testing criteria is for showcasing this new
software-- just show the developers the scope of how it can be used by their
targeted audience.
Good luck,
JP Kabala
a decent draftsman if I work at it, but I will always be "a writer who
paints,"
rather than "a painter who writes."
I'm actually kind of surprised that no one here recognized the subject--
if not from my painting, from the reference photo.
Bert's one of the best and original Photoshop gurus, and the person who
convinced me that it was even possible to paint with a computer.
I began the image as a test--and I picked the subject because I'd been
teased
by another tester about being too indoctrinated into the Adobe
way of doing things, and hampered by needing to "translate" everything from
"Photoshop-eze" to a new way of working. My reply was that that was
completely off base because Bert had taught me to look at what a tool really
will do, (not what it is labeled) and to exploit the strengths of the
software
instead of being frustrated by the limitations of the digital medium.
It was supposed to be a fast doodle, but it sucked me in. Became a vision
quest.
But this image would never make it into the software company's samples
gallery
even if I got it 100% perfect, because he's the so intimately associated
with a
competitor's product.
"oleander" <nospam-...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:6OzXc.58068$X12.42851@edtnps84...
michael
> if not from my painting, from the reference photo.
> Bert's one of the best and original Photoshop gurus, and the person who
> convinced me that it was even possible to paint with a computer.
I thought it was him!
Maybe it's the pose...it just doesn't look like his personality (what I know
of it by seeing him on TV) This last version does look better than the
first, quite a bit.
mb
JP Kabala
"michael" <no more spam> wrote in message
news:10iulq6...@corp.supernews.com...
wanted to give away my computer and move into a cave after the first one.
The pose is his "official" portrait--and a nice shot, but with the ponytail
hidden and no Hawaiian shirt and that ironic half smirk he looks like
"Bert's more straight-laced brother" In person, he's just the nicest guy on
the planet, very approachable, funny, animated, open, passionate about what
he does, LOVES to teach---I've taken lots of live classes with him--he is
amazing in the classroom--I'll see him at Photoshopworld next week, and I'll
have my camera-- maybe I can catch some better reference photos.
The Doormouse
The Doormouse
--
The Doormouse cannot be reached by e-mail without her permission.
JP Kabala
"The Doormouse" <door...@att.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9552AE7C8F84...@68.12.19.6...
The Doormouse
> Well, that was cold. :-(
You have mistaken my words - my apologies for the misunderstanding!
The posted image was great, but it is not what I love - which is
caricatures. If you redid the image so that it IS a caricature, I would be
more interested in it.
A straight copy requires lots of skill, but a caricature requires more.
JP Kabala
> You have mistaken my words - my apologies for the misunderstanding!
De nada--S'OK, I was having a bad day. I get like that sometimes.
> A straight copy requires lots of skill, but a caricature requires more.
Absolutely. A skill set I do not posess and can't even fake convincingly.
I suspect that's because I am far too uptight. The person who suggested that
I was using drafting techniques was right on the money--if I can recognize
and sufficiently define a pattern in my mind, I can reproduce it. That's a
useful skill when you are illustrating machine parts or painting florals,
but portraits can come out looking like death masks-- or worse.
Have you seen this guy's stuff?
http://users.pandora.be/hansdeconinck/
Our paths crossed recently. Interesting dude.
The Doormouse
>> You have mistaken my words - my apologies for the misunderstanding!
> De nada--S'OK, I was having a bad day. I get like that sometimes.
The error was mine - again, my apologies for not being more careful. I
sometimes do make overly sly and snarky comments. After I reread my own
post, it was clear to me how you could have taken it the wrong way.
Thank you for being understanding.
>> A straight copy requires lots of skill, but a caricature requires
>> more.
>
> Absolutely. A skill set I do not posess and can't even fake
> convincingly.
Ah, enough practice and we'll get there. :)
Bannana trees do not sprout bannanas until they are ready! This one intends
to take her time ripening ...
> The
> person who suggested that I was using drafting techniques was right on
> the money--if I can recognize and sufficiently define a pattern in my
> mind, I can reproduce it.
The grid system? It is suppossed to be classical, but I will likely never
use it.
> Have you seen this guy's stuff?
> http://users.pandora.be/hansdeconinck/
> Our paths crossed recently. Interesting dude.
Wow! No, I had not seen his work before.
Gem
>Unfortunately, I can't really discuss what software I'm using as
>it is in a pre-release test state, but it is neither Painter nor Photoshop.
no worries.
>Not to make excuses, but that was one of the issues with the first couple
>of iterations-- untested and unfamiliar tools which act like neither
>Painter's
>nor any other app I'm more familiar with.
This sounds like important data for the creators of this new app.
>http://www.jpkabala.com/images/bert6a.jpg
Yes, eyes are sized better and skin looks a lot better, especially forehead but
you still seem to be separating the shadows and lights too surgically.
Beard looks better but looks off kilter somehow. Looks too solid and flat.Not
enough definition between beard and neck. That's a really harsh line around his
lip. Lip is too blurry and flat. Nose looks funny but that is probably the
overlay, yes.
Don't forget your light source. Lit behind he should have a tiny glow line
behind his head, ear and off his shoulder line.
>there's
>less "airbrushed porn star effect" on the skin
lol! yes, skin looks pretty good. Still a bit smooth/blurry in the cheek area
and some striations on the forehead but nice contouring.
>It's still not a portfolio piece, but I'm less nauseated by this
>one. (LOL)
heh, I know the feeling....
Outside of the hand/arm and the other things mentioned above, you're not doing
too bad with an unfamiliar piece of software.
You might consider texturing or recoloring the shirt for a little contrast and
smoothing out the background so the focus is on the subject.
Good Luck, JP!!
---Gem