ADVICE PLEASE - continued
Tina Aitala
writing in reference to a BFA program. In addition to all the courses that
go along with a rigorous art program (studio courses, art history, design
courses, etc) it is important to get a well-rounded liberal arts education
along with it. It is important to understand history, science, literature,
business, etc, since the more knowledge you possess, the more you can use it
to your advantage in your design.
I can understand why students may be advised to go into a "regular" college.
Attending art school takes a high degree of maturity.
About internships: there are art schools where this is a requirement built
into the program and during the time that a student takes on an internship
their courseload is light so that neither will interfere with the other.
Also, you mentioned state schools and I don't know why this was brought up
because I never mentioned them. Why the broad generalizations about state
schools? My first degree (psychology) was from Shipppensburg State
University in 1994. In 1992 they built a state-of-the-art graphic design
student with all the highest end equipment of that time. And the design
courses were taught by people with MFA's and a lot of experience. There ARE
state schools that offer TOP art programs such as Kutztown University in PA
and Mass Art in Boston.
Tina>> A BFA is not an open door to a job. You can't tuck it under you arm
and
>> think things will automatically happen. You need to have a great portfolio
>> and you need to demonstrate marketable skills. However, more and more
>> employers are looking for a degree
>
Elaine> You're so mistaken. Smart employers are looking for creative people
who can
> do the job. The world is full of "graduates" who can't handle life outside
> the classroom.
> As an employer, college degrees in "art" are absolutely meaningless to me.
>
Ummmm Elaine, perhaps you should re-read my statement above. By having a
great portfolio a student is demonstrating their creativity and by having
marketable skills that means they can "do the job". A degree may be
meaningless to you but the places I am looking to work for - top, nationally
recognized, award-winning firms - are demanding BFA's, even MFA's. So for
me, being creative, owning a great portfolio, having the skills that a firm
finds desirable AND having a BFA, puts me farther ahead than the person who
doesn't have a BFA and the same skill set. The more feathers in your cap,
the better.
The intrisic point is this: designers must be educated. Whether they have a
BFA or not. They should know about the history of design, the basics of good
design, how to use typography effectively. They should know the rules and
know how to break them (----for all you Carson fans out there---hey Elaine,
do you know him? You would like him since he managed to be a highly
successful designer even though he did not attend a formal design program.
Did YOU know that??? At least you should be able to mention famous designers
that can back up your case for non-BFA types.----). They should know
historic designers and current ones. They should know the techniques of
printing..... they should be able to stay on top of technology.
A designer should own many hats and have a collection large enough so that
they can reach in that collection and pull it out and wear it when need be.
Elaine, you also wrote:
If you did not get paid, you're not doing it right. That's why so many
artists go into teaching or other fields. Unless you have really learned
your stuff as a salesperson, you cannot own your own design business.
Elaine, this is a ridiculous statement about teachers. These educators have
made noteworthy accomplishments, owned companies, and made historic strides
in the world of design and typography: Tenazas, Allemann, Licko, Ashby,
Fella, Frere-Jones, Mau, Mark T Smith to name a few. My instructors did not
become teachers because they were not adequate salespeople or because they
"weren't getting paid". My teachers came from highly educated backgrounds
and all of them own their own successful firms. In fact, ANY half decent art
school will not hire a teacher unless they prove professional worthiness.
Also, about my statement regarding people buying themselves the right
equipment and calling themselves designers, even though they have not had
any education in design----- you said "why should artists have to suffer?"
It's not the artists who suffers. It is the quality of their work.
I am so curious as to what type of design you do, Elaine; what type of
business you own. I am happy for you if you can easily have that design
prodigy cross your path who has the degree of talent and strong enough a
skill set to work with you, even though they lack a formal education in
design. But then again, we only go as far as we can see.
Also, what is your personal experience with art schools? From what
experience do you base your current position of BFA's being useless???
Tina
In article <D%0k5.27028$RG6.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> "Tina Aitala" <tai...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:iPXj5.26711$RG6.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> Of course, real world experience will teach you the most. That's a given
> and
>> it is naive to even begin to make that a point of contention.
>
> Ok, then. Why advise her to go to a regular college? Art school possibly for
> a year or two. Even a two yr. program at computer graphics school
>
>
>> No one said that college education was a substitute for real world
>> experience.
>
> Lots of people, especially in public school do in fact advise going to
> regular college instead of straight into professional art.
>
>>That is why I strongly recommend that while you are in school to
>> do freelancing and internships
>
> An internship would be a FANTASTIC opportunity for a young graphic artist.
> Regular college at the same time would just be a distraction. An expensive
> distraction at that. Because not ONLY is there little the state school can
> teach about computer graphics, but they lay on so much busywork the student
> doesn't have time to actually learn their profession.
>
>
> so you know what you are getting into and you
>> can start to hone your business skills early.
>>
>> Joining an association such as GAG or AIGA will network you with other
>> professionals which will prove to be valuable and increase solidarity in
> our
>> profession and help keep our standards high.
>>
>> Your clients are your prize possession. The greatest feedback they will
> give
>> you (besides paying you) is referring new business to you.
>>
>> You can say you are a graphic designer at any point you want. But what you
>> say and what you do are two different things. You can use whatever tools
> you
>> want to get where you are going, but keep in mind that you will only get
> as
>> far as you can see.
>>
>> A BFA is not an open door to a job. You can't tuck it under you arm and
>> think things will automatically happen. You need to have a great portfolio
>> and you need to demonstrate marketable skills. However, more and more
>> employers are looking for a degree
>
> You're so mistaken. Smart employers are looking for creative people who can
> do the job. The world is full of "graduates" who can't handle life outside
> the classroom.
> As an employer, college degrees in "art" are absolutely meaningless to me.
>
>
>>- there are too many people now who buy a
>> computer, scanner, printer, applications, razzle dazzle photoshop filters
>> and hang their sign outside and call themselves designers.
>
> Nothing wrong with that, if they can do the work. Where does it SAY the
> artist has to suffer?
>
>
>
Elaine Gallant
> Elaine - I did not advise her to go to a regular college at all. I am
> writing in reference to a BFA program.
Ya, you're right. Your advice about BFA programs was a good idea. I painted
all schooling to be like a regular liberal arts college, and that's wrong. A
couple of years in art school could be useful. Not to say formal classes are
the only way, or even necessary to the profession. Just that I would have
nothing against it.
> In addition to all the courses that
> go along with a rigorous art program (studio courses, art history, design
> courses, etc) it is important to get a well-rounded liberal arts education
> along with it.
>It is important to understand history, science, literature,
> business
Business certainly, but I do not believe official classes in history and
literature to be necessary to this career.
A person needs to understand economics, some accounting, math, and should
have some experience with sales.
All of this knowledge can for sure come in handy, but I can't say that any
of it need to be learned in the classroom.
> etc, since the more knowledge you possess, the more you can use it
> to your advantage in your design.
Maybe, maybe not.
> I can understand why students may be advised to go into a "regular"
college.
> Attending art school takes a high degree of maturity.
>
> About internships: there are art schools where this is a requirement built
> into the program and during the time that a student takes on an internship
> their courseload is light so that neither will interfere with the other.
>
> Also, you mentioned state schools and I don't know why this was brought up
> because I never mentioned them. Why the broad generalizations about state
> schools? My first degree (psychology) was from Shipppensburg State
> University in 1994.
Have you paid it off yet? How many of your classmates have closed their
college debts? I take it you're NOT working in the field of psychology? How
many of your classmates are working in the actual field of their majors?
> In 1992 they built a state-of-the-art graphic design
> student with all the highest end equipment of that time. And the design
> courses were taught by people with MFA's and a lot of experience. There
ARE
> state schools that offer TOP art programs such as Kutztown University in
PA
> and Mass Art in Boston.
That's nice to know. What's not so nice is the student has to buy 4-6 or
more years of classes in order to graduate. Only a minority of those classes
will be in their field.
>
>
> Tina>> A BFA is not an open door to a job. You can't tuck it under you arm
> and
> >> think things will automatically happen. You need to have a great
portfolio
> >> and you need to demonstrate marketable skills. However, more and more
> >> employers are looking for a degree
> >
> Elaine> You're so mistaken. Smart employers are looking for creative
people
> who can
> > do the job. The world is full of "graduates" who can't handle life
outside
> > the classroom.
> > As an employer, college degrees in "art" are absolutely meaningless to
me.
> >
>
> Ummmm Elaine, perhaps you should re-read my statement above. By having a
> great portfolio a student is demonstrating their creativity and by having
> marketable skills that means they can "do the job". A degree may be
> meaningless to you but the places I am looking to work for - top,
nationally
> recognized, award-winning firms - are demanding BFA's, even MFA's.
They have so many applicants, they like to have additional criteria for
acceptance. Sure. It's a free country. You can play that. There will be
jobs like that in every field.
So for
> me, being creative, owning a great portfolio, having the skills that a
firm
> finds desirable AND having a BFA, puts me farther ahead than the person
who
> doesn't have a BFA and the same skill set. The more feathers in your cap,
> the better.
Provided you're competing for that sort of job. If they choose to have their
own business, they can make people like you fight and go into debt for a
limitted number of positions.
> The intrisic point is this: designers must be educated.
Everyone needs to be "educated". The wise person dedicates themselves to
learning how to learn.
Whether they have a
> BFA or not. They should know about the history of design, the basics of
good
> design, how to use typography effectively. They should know the rules and
> know how to break them (----for all you Carson fans out there---hey
Elaine,
> do you know him? You would like him since he managed to be a highly
> successful designer even though he did not attend a formal design program.
> Did YOU know that???
Did you know bragging put you in a bad light?
>At least you should be able to mention famous designers
> that can back up your case for non-BFA types.----). They should know
> historic designers and current ones.
That's why they write books.
>They should know the techniques of
> printing..... they should be able to stay on top of technology.
Does anyone REALLY stay on top of technology? It would take up all of
someone's time, and then some. One thing for sure- schools are never the
cutting edge of technology. Schools are typically 10 years behind business
and the rest of culture.
In the computer field, 10 years may as well be 50.
> A designer should own many hats and have a collection large enough so that
> they can reach in that collection and pull it out and wear it when need
be.
Ya for sure. What happens when someone spends all of their productive years
in school is they fall behind the other designers, both financially and in
terms of performing their jobs.
> Elaine, you also wrote:
> If you did not get paid, you're not doing it right. That's why so many
> artists go into teaching or other fields. Unless you have really learned
> your stuff as a salesperson, you cannot own your own design business.
>
> Elaine, this is a ridiculous statement about teachers.
Here's a statement about teachers you might ponder: Those who can't DO,
teach.
>These educators have
> made noteworthy accomplishments, owned companies, and made historic
strides
> in the world of design and typography: Tenazas, Allemann, Licko, Ashby,
> Fella, Frere-Jones, Mau, Mark T Smith to name a few. My instructors did
not
> become teachers because they were not adequate salespeople or because they
> "weren't getting paid". My teachers came from highly educated backgrounds
> and all of them own their own successful firms. In fact, ANY half decent
art
> school will not hire a teacher unless they prove professional worthiness.
>
> Also, about my statement regarding people buying themselves the right
> equipment and calling themselves designers, even though they have not had
> any education in design----- you said "why should artists have to suffer?"
>
> It's not the artists who suffers. It is the quality of their work.
Final product is very subject to individual taste. I have a hint that you
are jealous or dismissive of peole who make different educational choice
from yours.
It's quite disappointing to see you refer to your fellow artists as
"uneducated" if they choose a different path from yours.
the world is changing, and your traditional liberal arts colleges are not
serviing the needs of young artists, nor many of the other students for that
matter.
> I am so curious as to what type of design you do, Elaine; what type of
> business you own.
I don't DO design. Which brings up the the question of what sort of
educational background the employers of graphic designers have. The answer
is, it's none of your business. As long as they sign your paycheck, their
"educational background" is not your business.
Tina Aitala
> Business certainly, but I do not believe official classes in history and
> literature to be necessary to this career.
> A person needs to understand economics, some accounting, math, and should
> have some experience with sales.
>
> All of this knowledge can for sure come in handy, but I can't say that any
> of it need to be learned in the classroom.
Good - we agree in that. To me, education is important, wherever and however
it is attained. People should strive to enhance themselves. I grew up
believing that and have difficulty understanding those who choose not to
continuing growing.
However, you say it is not necessary to have those classes for "this career"
and by "this career" I assume you mean a graphic design career. Later on in
your post you say that you don't "do design" which I take as you are not a
graphic designer, so I do not understand how you can make judgements on the
graphic design field if you are not a designer. You say you do business web
design and that can mean anything.
Liberal art classes are needed to make a person well-rounded, in general. If
all you are going to major in and study is history or only mathmatics, or
only biology, etc you could easily fall victim to narrow-mindedness, or
worse, end up being a very boring person.
>
>> etc, since the more knowledge you possess, the more you can use it
>> to your advantage in your design.
>
> Maybe, maybe not.
Ummm knowledge is power. Having more knowledge is helpful, in general, in
everything you do.
>>
>> Also, you mentioned state schools and I don't know why this was brought up
>> because I never mentioned them. Why the broad generalizations about state
>> schools? My first degree (psychology) was from Shipppensburg State
>> University in 1994.
>
> Have you paid it off yet? How many of your classmates have closed their
> college debts? I take it you're NOT working in the field of psychology? How
> many of your classmates are working in the actual field of their majors?
It seems that one of your points of contention with schools is the cost.
Although my financial concerns are none of your business, I can assure you
that my money was well-invested in my education. With the economy the way it
is, I feel confident about financial matters. However, there is more to
going into the design field than just money.
Yes, I started working in the Psych field back in 1994 counseling
behaviorally challenged youths. I used art to help them with their issues
and they managed quite well. I tutored inmates in prison and also used
artistic methods there. I worked as a residential counselor and developed
and instituted an arts and crafts program in the middle school. I excelled
in my job but I was not happy. I had studied fine art throught my college
years at Shippensburg in addition to psychology, but decided in 1997 to
enroll in a BFA program and pursue Design at The Art Institute of Boston at
Lesley College - a private 4 year accredited college. I now have my BFA in
Design and I am looking for a job while doing freelancing.
I AM working in the field of psychology. Design and psychology are
intertwined. Having knowledge of human perception, learning, and
communication make my design more effective. It helps when communicating
with clients. My design has a psychological thread whether it is elemental
to the framework or to the content. My background in psychology aids in my
ability to research, analyze, and disseminate information - which is a
significant part of design.
>
>
>> In 1992 they built a state-of-the-art graphic design
>> student with all the highest end equipment of that time. And the design
>> courses were taught by people with MFA's and a lot of experience. There
> ARE
>> state schools that offer TOP art programs such as Kutztown University in
> PA
>> and Mass Art in Boston.
>
> That's nice to know. What's not so nice is the student has to buy 4-6 or
> more years of classes in order to graduate. Only a minority of those classes
> will be in their field.
Well the programs exist - they are there for those who seek them out. If
someone has financial need there are many scholarships and work programs and
aid offered these days. A student generally goes into college well-aware of
the potential costs involved and will go forward knowing and accepting that.
How do you know only a minority of the classes will be in their field? Where
are these generalizations coming from?
A BFA program is not for everyone and that's okay. Not everyone can hack it.
There are plenty of alternatives for every preference, lifestyle, budget,
etc. A person should enroll in a program understanding where it may or may
not lead them.
>> Ummmm Elaine, perhaps you should re-read my statement above. By having a
>> great portfolio a student is demonstrating their creativity and by having
>> marketable skills that means they can "do the job". A degree may be
>> meaningless to you but the places I am looking to work for - top,
> nationally
>> recognized, award-winning firms - are demanding BFA's, even MFA's.
>
> They have so many applicants, they like to have additional criteria for
> acceptance. Sure. It's a free country. You can play that. There will be
> jobs like that in every field.
Additional criteria is needed because the market in general is flooded. With
the advent of the home computer more people have access to do design but
they lack the knowledge. So what happens is the market is also flooded with
low caliber design. And yes, there are those clients who will pursue them.
And that's good for them.
>
>
> So for
>> me, being creative, owning a great portfolio, having the skills that a
> firm
>> finds desirable AND having a BFA, puts me farther ahead than the person
> who
>> doesn't have a BFA and the same skill set. The more feathers in your cap,
>> the better.
>
> Provided you're competing for that sort of job. If they choose to have their
> own business, they can make people like you fight and go into debt for a
> limitted number of positions.
Ummm... the market for print designers is pretty good right now. (I am
referring to the US - I won't assume your nationality.)
Sure I'll compete for anything I want. But that is MY nature.
>
>> The intrisic point is this: designers must be educated.
>
> Everyone needs to be "educated". The wise person dedicates themselves to
> learning how to learn.
I wholeheartedly agree on that one.
Let's leave semantics out of this, though.
>
> Whether they have a
>> BFA or not. They should know about the history of design, the basics of
> good
>> design, how to use typography effectively. They should know the rules and
>> know how to break them (----for all you Carson fans out there---hey
> Elaine,
>> do you know him? You would like him since he managed to be a highly
>> successful designer even though he did not attend a formal design program.
>> Did YOU know that???
>
> Did you know bragging put you in a bad light?
Ummm... I am not bragging. Since you seem to admire Bill Gates for not
completing college and still being successful I thought I would mention a
highly known and regarded designer who managed extremely well in design
without a formal education in it. I thought you would be able to back up you
argument against formal design education by mentioning such people. Most
designers are familiar with Carson. His work is worth looking at.
>
>
>>At least you should be able to mention famous designers
>> that can back up your case for non-BFA types.----). They should know
>> historic designers and current ones.
>
> That's why they write books.
Have you read any interesting ones?
Yup, you can sit in the aisle of a Barnes and Noble on a Sunday afternoon
and look through all the cool design books... thumb through the
annuals....go to a workshop and meet them . . . take a history of design
course ..... do all of this ... do some of this.... but just do something.
Everyone should know what is going on in their field.
>
>
>>They should know the techniques of
>> printing..... they should be able to stay on top of technology.
>
> Does anyone REALLY stay on top of technology? It would take up all of
> someone's time, and then some. One thing for sure- schools are never the
> cutting edge of technology. Schools are typically 10 years behind business
> and the rest of culture.
> In the computer field, 10 years may as well be 50.
It is advisable to keep tabs on the current technologies. Your design should
not be dependent upon them but if there is something out there that will
enhance it, cut production time or increase the quality of the output, then
knowing about it is helpful.
What schools are you referring to that are not on the cutting edge???
Certainly they are not the ones with worthy design programs. And to say
they are ten years behind??? They must be pretty bad schools.
The school I attended had three computer labs (we are a school of 800
students), and in the design lab alone we had access to 10 G-4's, 30 G-3s,
all had 21" monitors, ergonomic chairs, scanners, b/w and color laser
printers, firewires, zip drives, projectors, the latest versions of Quark,
Photoshop, illustrator, Dreamweaver, Flash, etc..... I could go on... We
were VERY well equipped. So were the other art schools I visited (MassARt,
RISD, Univ of Arts, etc.)
Where on earth are you getting your information?
>
>
>> A designer should own many hats and have a collection large enough so that
>> they can reach in that collection and pull it out and wear it when need
> be.
>
> Ya for sure. What happens when someone spends all of their productive years
> in school is they fall behind the other designers, both financially and in
> terms of performing their jobs.
When is age an issue?? What on earth are you talking about? Falling behind
the other designers?? The design field is not linear.
>
>> Elaine, you also wrote:
>> If you did not get paid, you're not doing it right. That's why so many
>> artists go into teaching or other fields. Unless you have really learned
>> your stuff as a salesperson, you cannot own your own design business.
>>
>> Elaine, this is a ridiculous statement about teachers.
>
>
> Here's a statement about teachers you might ponder: Those who can't DO,
> teach.
Give it a break - you honestly are using that in your arguement? What an
ignorant thing to say.
I am seeing a general dissonance you posses with the educational system in
large.
>
>
>>These educators have
>> made noteworthy accomplishments, owned companies, and made historic
> strides
>> in the world of design and typography: Tenazas, Allemann, Licko, Ashby,
>> Fella, Frere-Jones, Mau, Mark T Smith to name a few. My instructors did
> not
>> become teachers because they were not adequate salespeople or because they
>> "weren't getting paid". My teachers came from highly educated backgrounds
>> and all of them own their own successful firms. In fact, ANY half decent
> art
>> school will not hire a teacher unless they prove professional worthiness.
>>
>> Also, about my statement regarding people buying themselves the right
>> equipment and calling themselves designers, even though they have not had
>> any education in design----- you said "why should artists have to suffer?"
>>
>> It's not the artists who suffers. It is the quality of their work.
>
> Final product is very subject to individual taste. I have a hint that you
> are jealous or dismissive of peole who make different educational choice
> from yours.
> It's quite disappointing to see you refer to your fellow artists as
> "uneducated" if they choose a different path from yours.
> the world is changing, and your traditional liberal arts colleges are not
> serviing the needs of young artists, nor many of the other students for that
> matter.
Final product is very subjective, I agree. Those with good taste will
recognize good design. Those who understand good design will get good
design.
NEVER did I call my fellow artist's uneducated. I am just defending my
position on a BFA program - it does not mean I am not open to other types of
programs.
You are confused about my remarks. You cannot just buy the equipment and
call yourself a designer without knowing anything about design.
There will be those types of clients that seek out that designer and be
satisfied. Good - they are all paid and happy.
Then there will be clients who seek out designers that have an education in
design (whether it is BFA, prof cert, AA or whatever) and be satisfied. Good
- they are happy and paid and what not.
Personally I do not want, and will not have, the type of client that will go
to any joe-schmoe who calls themselves a designer just because they bought a
computer and DTP software. The joe-schmoe's can have them and the
joe-schmoes will be happy for it.
The clients I have will appreciate good design.
You know wine comes in both screw-top and cork. People like and drink
screwtop and there are people that like and drink cork. I am welcoming the
cork drinkers. They know and expect good wine.
I am not jealous or dismissive of those who make other choices than BFA in
their education. You could not be any more in the wrong there. I get upset
when people make broad generalizations and do not back up their claims.
I respect the artist that can go out there and make a living without a
traditional schooling. I just don't see that many in the print industry.
I respect you opinon that liberal arts schools are not doing justice to
students these days, but I disagree. You get the education you want by what
you put into it. I have been very fortunate to attend very good schools. I
feel sorry for the students (or people in general) who cannot take advantage
of the resources around them.
>
>
>> I am so curious as to what type of design you do, Elaine; what type of
>> business you own.
>
> I don't DO design. Which brings up the the question of what sort of
> educational background the employers of graphic designers have. The answer
> is, it's none of your business. As long as they sign your paycheck, their
> "educational background" is not your business.
If you don't DO design then how can you argue with me on specific elements
of the value of a design education for hopeful graphic designers? or art
school?
I thought you were a graphic designer. Perhaps we could have avoided
confusion if you had just identified yourself and what you do before you
made such statements.
Who are you?
Elaine Gallant
education, they should, by all means feel free to persue that plan.
However, there is nothing in a regular liberal arts school worth going into
debt for the next 2-3 decades.
It is no kindness to suggest a young person to go directly into debt to take
classes in liberal arts.
The youth could even work for just a few years, and afford to buy classes
outright. If they wanted to.
"Tina Aitala" <tai...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:xo5k5.10670$gW5.6...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
siste...@mailcity.com
debt as a result? I have two degrees and am planning on getting a
third. The first two I paid for myself with a combination of my own
money and grants. (The grants were mainly for my undergraduate
degree). As a result, I have no college debts. Sure, it was a
struggle, but it was one that certainly paid off in the end.
--Carol
In article <a_6k5.3945$4T.2...@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> If a young artist, or any artist for that matter wants more formal
> education, they should, by all means feel free to persue that plan.
>
> However, there is nothing in a regular liberal arts school worth
going into
> debt for the next 2-3 decades.
> It is no kindness to suggest a young person to go directly into debt
to take
> classes in liberal arts.
<snip>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
cpg
>debt for the next 2-3 decades.
>It is no kindness to suggest a young person to go directly into debt to take
>classes in liberal arts.
>
It is also no kindness on your part to scare kids off of education
with your misinformed opinions. There are LOTS of quality schools that
offer good programs in all kinds of disciplines, including design,
that will not put you in debt 20-30 years. There are many subsidies,
grant programs, etc.. in place that essentially pay for college
education.
Just because your experiences with education weren't what you had
hoped doesn't mean the whole system is automatically no good. You're
welcome to your opinions of course but when you try to convince the
inexperienced that you are somehow an authority on education because
you can complain the loudest, you cross the line from opinionated to
dangerous.
Learning is _always_ a good thing.
cpg
Elaine Gallant
"cpg" <c_p_...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:399187bb...@news.bluestar.net...
> >However, there is nothing in a regular liberal arts school worth going
into
> >debt for the next 2-3 decades.
> >It is no kindness to suggest a young person to go directly into debt to
take
> >classes in liberal arts.
> >
>
I just want to "scare them off" a lifetime worth of unnecessary debt. If
they take a 2yr. degree at a specialized school, they can go right to work
before their hair turns grey.
HIGH SCHOOL should be assuming the burden for their basic education.
> There are LOTS of quality schools
Sure. Mostly 'cause there are so many gullible youths to support those
schools.
that
> offer good programs in all kinds of disciplines, including design,
> that will not put you in debt 20-30 years. There are many subsidies,
> grant programs, etc.. in place that essentially pay for college
> education.
There are essentially NO free rides through college. The college biz found
out how easy and profitable it is to sell "educational" services.
cpg
just makes things up when the argument isn't going his or her way.
First there was this:
>A person's most creative years are 10-30. What an incredible time to waste
>in a classroom.
Then this slew of gems:
>There is nothing presently taught in 4 year colleges that could not be
>thoroughly covered by the 12 grade.
>Half of all college classes remediate bad highschool education. That's just
>wrong.
>Additionally, the best and brightest students are held back in regular high
>school for 13 years when many could complete the course of study 3,4, or 5
>years sooner.
And now this beauty:
>There are essentially NO free rides through college. The college biz found
>out how easy and profitable it is to sell "educational" services.
You are quite simply talking out your ass.
Maybe instead of web design, you should sell statisitics and "facts".
You seem to have a real knack for making those.
cpg
Elaine Gallant
<siste...@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:8ms46v$vtu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Why are you assuming that everyone who goes to college has to go into
> debt as a result?
It's going into debt is the school is sucking up all your time, and you have
to pay them for the privilege. If you're sitting in a dusty classroom
running up a bill when your competition is out getting working experience.
> I have two degrees and am planning on getting a
> third. The first two I paid for myself with a combination of my own
> money and grants. (The grants were mainly for my undergraduate
> degree). As a result, I have no college debts. Sure, it was a
> struggle, but it was one that certainly paid off in the end.
> --Carol
Fine. That's still no reason to tell a kid to go into debt on some useless
liberal arts degree.
> In article <a_6k5.3945$4T.2...@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > If a young artist, or any artist for that matter wants more formal
> > education, they should, by all means feel free to persue that plan.
> >
> > However, there is nothing in a regular liberal arts school worth
> going into
> > debt for the next 2-3 decades.
> > It is no kindness to suggest a young person to go directly into debt
> to take
> > classes in liberal arts.
Elaine Gallant
Then don't argue. Adults exploit young people under the guise of "helping"
them. My cousin graduated with his BFA after 6 years. He's 26 year old.
His parents paid for the school, but the man has had not one day of work in
his field.
"cpg" <c_p_...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3991bff1...@news.bluestar.net...
glorywest
Just curious cause while I was in school I thought
it was a drag to be there when I could be working.
I liked most of my classes, listened to my parents
(both college educated) and stuck it out. Even
paid off my loan.
Now 20 years later I see the way this degree has
shaped my life and my career. I use it now more
than ever and I'm very thankful I have it. (BA
Communications)
It helps you get a higher paying job when combined
with experience. Plus some doors might be closed
altogether without it. Those things might not mean
that much to someone at 20-25, but when hit your
30s and 40s and it could make a world of
difference.
Elaine Gallant
"glorywest" <"glorywest"@megapathdsl .dot. net> wrote in message
news:sp4cicl...@corp.supernews.com...
> How old are you Elaine?
I'm older.
> Just curious cause while I was in school I thought
> it was a drag to be there when I could be working.
> I liked most of my classes, listened to my parents
> (both college educated) and stuck it out. Even
> paid off my loan.
>
> Now 20 years later
This is not the same world it was 20 years ago. 20 years ago, computers
barely existed, and there was no field of computer graphics.
When you went to school, the college system had a complete strangle hold
over who got ahed in life. You either went to their 4 yr. liberal arts
college, or you could resign yourself to painting signs for the rest of your
life.
The up side was then, there were more scholarships, and college was not that
expensive. A person COULD hold that sign painting job part time while
attending college. They could get by.
Or, your parents could easily afford to send 2-3 kids to college. One kid
in college at a time was easy.
Also- highschools were good enough that students didn't have to remediate
basic skills in college.
> I see the way this degree has
> shaped my life and my career. I use it now more
> than ever and I'm very thankful I have it. (BA
> Communications)
There ya go. That's the whole point. At the time you were in school, college
was the social gatekeeper between white and blue collar jobs. You could not
even really mix with white collar people if you were not a college graduate.
Additionally- you're not working in the same field as your major. Provided
that you are a graphic artist.
> It helps you get a higher paying job when combined
> with experience. Plus some doors might be closed
> altogether without it.
When you were growing up, all doors to better careers were closed unless the
person had their BA. The whole system is going into the dumper now. Where it
belongs. Computers brought that change.
>Those things might not mean
> that much to someone at 20-25, but when hit your
> 30s and 40s and it could make a world of
> difference.
Ya, you were able to pay off your student debts too. Try being 26 yrs. old
with a 150K student loan. Most of these students will be paying off student
loans for all of their productive years.
Which would be tragic enough....if it were necessary. It's NOT!
LKRZ
>them. My cousin graduated with his BFA after 6 years. He's 26 year old.
>His parents paid for the school, but the man has had not one day of work in
>his field.
>
So? Whose fault is that?
All you talk about is work and making money. Is every minute of your waking day
devoted to earning a buck?
There's a whole lot more to life than that, which is one of many things college
teaches.
There are many fine colleges available in a broad range of prices and lots of
work, grant and scholarship programs. Someone who ends up in debt for life to
get a college education has only himself or herself to blame.
Being able to do a job and being mature enough to function as an adult in the
business world are two entirely different things.
glorywest
definitely working in the same field.
I am a communicator—first and foremost. What do
you think graphic designers do?
You can also consider me a graphic artist as well
as I have done that job for a number of years too.
I have worked my entire career in the graphics
industry and it has ALWAYS been about
communication.
The difference between me and a designer or artist
with a BFA is that while I did not get the
extensive training in art they did, I have
valuable training in how to communicate.
Elaine Gallant
"LKRZ" <lk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000810032210...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
> >Then don't argue. Adults exploit young people under the guise of
"helping"
> >them. My cousin graduated with his BFA after 6 years. He's 26 year old.
> >His parents paid for the school, but the man has had not one day of work
in
> >his field.
> >
>
> So? Whose fault is that?
God forbid some of the blame could fall on the shoulders of those who told
him to go to college right after highschool to study fine arts.
Some genius also led him to think he could work in fine arts, but didn't
have to know anything about computer. He doesn't!
Apparently, it's hard to find a paying job in art of a non-computerized
variety.
> All you talk about is work and making money. Is every minute of your
waking day
> devoted to earning a buck?
What did you think college was? A charitable institution?
> There's a whole lot more to life than that, which is one of many things
college
> teaches.
There are also things college can't teach, and things they don't teach. For
instance, they can't teach you how to interact with clients.
They don't teach how handle finances so that at some point you can stop
working, and do something else.
> There are many fine colleges available in a broad range of prices and lots
of
> work, grant and scholarship programs. Someone who ends up in debt for life
to
> get a college education has only himself or herself to blame.
That's just the thing. When they're young, everyone rushes to pile debt on
the student. When payback times comes, they're on their own.
> Being able to do a job and being mature enough to function as an adult in
the
> business world are two entirely different things.
Really? Please explain the difference.
Tina Aitala
What ever happened to accountability?
----------
In article <Pbyk5.5547$4T.3...@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> "LKRZ" <lk...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20000810032210...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
>> >Then don't argue. Adults exploit young people under the guise of
> "helping"
>> >them. My cousin graduated with his BFA after 6 years. He's 26 year old.
>> >His parents paid for the school, but the man has had not one day of work
> in
>> >his field.
>> >
>>
>> So? Whose fault is that?
>
> God forbid some of the blame could fall on the shoulders of those who told
> him to go to college right after highschool to study fine arts.
> Some genius also led him to think he could work in fine arts, but didn't
> have to know anything about computer. He doesn't!
>
> SNIP
Brian Mays
Elaine Gallant wrote:
>
> There are essentially NO free rides through college. The college biz found
> out how easy and profitable it is to sell "educational" services.
At the risk of tooting my own horn, I came pretty doggone close to a free
ride :-)
Brian
Elaine Gallant
It wasn't FREE even if you didn't have to fork over cash to go to the
school. If you are an artist anyway. You would have been lying fallow in
class while your peers were learning their trade in a real world setting.
6 years or so later, when you finally got out of school, they had 6
additional earning and learning years.
"Brian Mays" <bma...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:3994B75E...@swbell.net...