Art Talk- sounding awfully familiar.
Dimitri
something I posted a week ago about the indistinctions in modern life.
http://www.hudson.org/American_Outlook/articles_nov-dec_00/pontynen.htm
godsparkle
http://www.hudson.org/American_Outlook/articles_nov-dec_00/pontynen.htm
without love - all life and worlds appear a waste land... peopled with
self obsessed power hoarders...
this is not a new cry... always we're on the razor edge of getting lost
in the postmodernist wasteland - it's sort of like, what makes us
human. :)
no one ever tells any of us "why" - that's the great secret! It's what
we're alive and breathing and suffering to learn. :) Science is like
Gawain's Fisher King - Great What's, without Great Why's. All life is
art.. and great art is knowing what and asking why... if we're lucky
we'll eventually learn to ask and seek answers to the true questions..
it's not the answers that even matter ("42"- funny and somewhat obscure
case in point) ... it's the asking!
it's a bigger world, now, than it's ever been - that's true.. and our
Fisher Kings are more malignant... we have prozac and paxil.. and
genetically engineered plants that grow dead seeds... the knowledge to
travel the stars.. and the knowledge to put an end to ourselves
forever... so much easier to get lost in the onslaught of (empty)
information... and so much of our entire lives are defined by an empty
and greed driven commerce... that tells us - don't stop and ask why you
need it - just GET YOURS, so I can GET MINE.
I think this is mostly surface noise, though.. I mean, do you really
see so many lost people in your daily life? I don't... not really -
they define their lives with different symbols than I do, maybe... but
most of the people in my life aren't shallow and narrcissitic,
astheticized and greed driven... most of them couldn't define
postmodernism either, though. :)
In my life.. it's always been a struggle for me, to believe in
anything.. even as a little kid, I never believed in santa claus, or
faries, or heaven. On the other hand.. I sensed.. that these things
were symbols for deeper truths, that I *did* believe in... that sense
of deep things.. my faith, I guess you could say... is what guides me,
and drives me through my life... sometimes it's still a struggle to
care.. to realize that what I think and feel has worth... I'm wandering
the postmodern wasteland, same as everyone else here. Sometimes we get
to fall in love with butterflies though. :)
and isn't that what it's all about, really? :)
--
oh.. sorry... thought this was still alt.design.bad-philosopy :)
--
Charity
--
Quick - Drug that kid before he becomes an Existentialist!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Tor de Vries
> case in point) ... it's the asking!
An old Jewish anecdote:
A rabbi is asked, "What is the meaning of life?" He replies, "That is such
a wonderful question, why would you want to ruin it with an answer?"
tdv
Dimitri
godsparkle wrote:
> without love - all life and worlds appear a waste land... peopled with
> self obsessed power hoarders...
>
> this is not a new cry... always we're on the razor edge of getting lost
> in the postmodernist wasteland - it's sort of like, what makes us
> human. :)
I don't think we're on the edge- I think we *are* lost to the bullying
that we just be ourselves and everything will be okay.
If we concede to that then there is no purpose in aspiring to be greater
than what we are.
>
> no one ever tells any of us "why" - that's the great secret!
It's not a secret if you believe there can be something greater than
you. Something that can manage *you* more effectively than YOU can. Even
if it's just a new YOU.
It's the old "I'm doing the best I can" paradox where there isn't any
standard to go by, but we are afraid to judge someone's effectiveness.
As if they will be forever crippled by feelings of inadequacy. I'd like
to think our constitutions are built on more than our own
self-assessments.
> we're alive and breathing and suffering to learn. :) Science is like
> Gawain's Fisher King - Great What's, without Great Why's. All life is
> art.. and great art is knowing what and asking why...
Great art is asking why- and relishing the doubt.
if we're lucky
> we'll eventually learn to ask and seek answers to the true questions..
> it's not the answers that even matter ("42"- funny and somewhat obscure
> case in point) ... it's the asking!
>
> it's a bigger world, now, than it's ever been - that's true.. and our
> Fisher Kings are more malignant... we have prozac and paxil.. and
> genetically engineered plants that grow dead seeds... the knowledge to
> travel the stars.. and the knowledge to put an end to ourselves
> forever... so much easier to get lost in the onslaught of (empty)
> information... and so much of our entire lives are defined by an empty
> and greed driven commerce... that tells us - don't stop and ask why you
> need it - just GET YOURS, so I can GET MINE.
Or, screw you , I'm getting mine either way...
>
> I think this is mostly surface noise, though.. I mean, do you really
> see so many lost people in your daily life?
Yes I do. It's those that are afraid to make judgement and to hold
beliefs which are against the popular social conscience. Righteousness
for self is permissable, all else is considered discretionary abuse. The
warriors against bigotry and prejudice are as narrow-minded and
ferocious as those they condemn.
I don't... not really -
> they define their lives with different symbols than I do, maybe... but
> most of the people in my life aren't shallow and narrcissitic,
> astheticized and greed driven... most of them couldn't define
> postmodernism either, though. :)
I can't either. But I think it's a condition which promotes personal
agenda over community.
>
> In my life.. it's always been a struggle for me, to believe in
> anything.. even as a little kid, I never believed in santa claus, or
> faries, or heaven. On the other hand.. I sensed.. that these things
> were symbols for deeper truths, that I *did* believe in... that sense
> of deep things.. my faith, I guess you could say... is what guides me,
> and drives me through my life... sometimes it's still a struggle to
> care.. to realize that what I think and feel has worth... I'm wandering
> the postmodern wasteland, same as everyone else here. Sometimes we get
> to fall in love with butterflies though. :)
>
> and isn't that what it's all about, really? :)
Everybody being in the same boat just tells us that the effect is
universal, not whether it's good or bad.
>
> --
> oh.. sorry... thought this was still alt.design.bad-philosopy :)
>
It's what you want to get out of it.
Thanks.
Mike C.
Dimitri wrote:
> Yes I do. It's those that are afraid to make judgement and to hold
> beliefs which are against the popular social conscience.
Chuckle. Yet it was YOU who gets on my case for standing against
the "popular social conscience" when I write as I see fit.
I chuckle at you again.
":^) ®
> Righteousness
> for self is permissable...
Where did you copy that from? Seems odd that you would think up
such a thought.
":^) ®
> But I think it's a condition which promotes personal
> agenda over community.
Now that sounds like YOU. YOU thought up that idea.
":^) ®
--
Mike C.
* Logo Design
* DHTML & GIF Animation
* Custom Graphics for YOUR Site!
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Dan
>>>I don't think we're on the edge- I think we *are* lost to the bullying
that we just be ourselves and everything will be okay.
If we concede to that then there is no purpose in aspiring to be greater
than what we are.<<<
Interesting take. I think that who we are, each and every one of us, is 100%
wonderful. All of the posturing and bullying and attitude simply covers it
up. To the extent that we can strip all that away and actually *get* to who
we are...that's when the greatness appears.
Inspiring posts, you two.
Dan
--
To reply, remove ooo from address
godsparkle
> I don't think we're on the edge- I think we *are* lost to the bullying
> that we just be ourselves and everything will be okay.
> If we concede to that then there is no purpose in aspiring to be
greater
> than what we are.
what else can we be, but ourselves?? I am only myself - but who and
what I am, by it's nature - aspires!! to be GREAT - to be beyond what
I can know or understand...
Fisher kings.. we are a world full of fisher kings - do you know the
story of the fisher king..? do a search on google for it.. you should
be able to find a reasonable version... it's worth a read, if you
haven't heard the tale before.
> > no one ever tells any of us "why" - that's the great secret!
>
> It's not a secret if you believe there can be something greater than
> you. Something that can manage *you* more effectively than YOU can.
Even
> if it's just a new YOU.
> It's the old "I'm doing the best I can" paradox where there isn't any
> standard to go by, but we are afraid to judge someone's effectiveness.
> As if they will be forever crippled by feelings of inadequacy. I'd
like
> to think our constitutions are built on more than our own
> self-assessments.
I don't understand what you're trying to say here... where did "manage"
come from? do you belive there *should* be a standard to judge
ourselves from? *True* self assessment is not crippling... the pre-
packaged Fisher King brand sold on the shelves these days is though, I
agree completely.
> > art.. and great art is knowing what and asking why...
>
> Great art is asking why- and relishing the doubt.
yes! Revel in the doubts.. the infinite possibilites - but still quest
for the answers...
> > information... and so much of our entire lives are defined by an
empty
> > and greed driven commerce... that tells us - don't stop and ask why
you
> > need it - just GET YOURS, so I can GET MINE.
>
> Or, screw you , I'm getting mine either way...
heh, yeah.. that too.
> > I think this is mostly surface noise, though.. I mean, do you
really
> > see so many lost people in your daily life?
>
> Yes I do. It's those that are afraid to make judgement and to hold
> beliefs which are against the popular social conscience. Righteousness
> for self is permissable, all else is considered discretionary abuse.
this is really what you see..? I see people born into a world they
didn't build, and don't understand... I see them muck through as best
they can figure out... I see them love each other, and hurt each other,
and laugh, and cry, be giving, and selfish... work too hard, and eat
too much, and smoke too many cigarettes... I hear them tell me - "look
how beautiful that sunset is".
perhaps you're right in a way though... we have been fundamentally
robbed of our humanity by the onslaught of commerce culture... "we're
only as good as what we can buy". Not many people can let go of that..
take a stand for their beliefs that contradict the "money(power)=
personal validation" mantra that is shoved down our throats from birth.
most people I know are poor though... we've been excluded from the
game from the get-go.. so we spend most of our time just getting by..
surviving.. and enjoying when and what we can. Just like humanity has
always operated, since we began.. 2.7 million years ago.
Righteousness for self.. what do you mean when you say that..?
>The
> warriors against bigotry and prejudice are as narrow-minded and
> ferocious as those they condemn.
"I hate hate." heh.. yes, this is a dangerous conundrum...
these "warriors" are just that.. warriors.. War is an agent of
commerce, in any context.
> I don't... not really -
> > they define their lives with different symbols than I do, maybe...
but
> > most of the people in my life aren't shallow and narrcissitic,
> > astheticized and greed driven... most of them couldn't define
> > postmodernism either, though. :)
>
> I can't either. But I think it's a condition which promotes personal
> agenda over community.
I think it is a question, more than a condition... "postmodern" is one
of those words who's definition can be tailored to whatever your
personal agenda might happen to be at the time you're writing it...
To me, postmodernism is a question - it is important to question your
society and your culture.. even to the point of their obliteration...
through death comes trancendence.
> > the postmodern wasteland, same as everyone else here. Sometimes we
get
> > to fall in love with butterflies though. :)
> >
> > and isn't that what it's all about, really? :)
>
> Everybody being in the same boat just tells us that the effect is
> universal, not whether it's good or bad.
good or bad? Dimitri.. do you honestly think that rules, social
constructs.. systems.. cultures... do you honestly think that those
things can be our answers anymore?
> > oh.. sorry... thought this was still alt.design.bad-philosopy :)
> >
> It's what you want to get out of it.
oh.. I get as much as I can out of everything.
I have more on this (it's even ON TOPIC heh heh).. but it will have to
wait till later tonight.
Keep talking to me, d. :)
Dimitri
godsparkle wrote:
>
> > I don't think we're on the edge- I think we *are* lost to the bullying
> > that we just be ourselves and everything will be okay.
> > If we concede to that then there is no purpose in aspiring to be
> greater
> > than what we are.
>
> what else can we be, but ourselves??
Yes, we can be better than what we believe ourselves to be, and we can
be worse. It all depends on the the stimulus.
I am only myself - but who and
> what I am, by it's nature - aspires!! to be GREAT - to be beyond what
> I can know or understand...
But that is you my dear Fisherking.
> > It's not a secret if you believe there can be something greater than
> > you. Something that can manage *you* more effectively than YOU can.
> Even
> > if it's just a new YOU.
> > It's the old "I'm doing the best I can" paradox where there isn't any
>
> I don't understand what you're trying to say here... where did "manage"
> come from? do you belive there *should* be a standard to judge
> ourselves from?
A moral standard, a cultural standard...Yes I do. A metaphorical
'compass', a path. No guarantees of success, but only providing hope and
unity. I don't see hope and unity in individual bent. What I often see
is isolation, desperation and a need for purpose.
We cannot *competently* judge ourselves because it's biased and easily
internalized or dismissed depending on our value systems.
*True* self assessment is not crippling... the pre-
> packaged Fisher King brand sold on the shelves these days is though, I
> agree completely.
>
> > > art.. and great art is knowing what and asking why...
> >
> > Great art is asking why- and relishing the doubt.
>
> yes! Revel in the doubts.. the infinite possibilites - but still quest
> for the answers...
Be careful for what you wish for. : )
I would go back to Tor's Jewish anecdote and metaphrase: why ruin the
trick by needing to know how it was done?
>
> > > information... and so much of our entire lives are defined by an
> empty
> > > and greed driven commerce... that tells us - don't stop and ask why
> you
> > > need it - just GET YOURS, so I can GET MINE.
> >
> > Or, screw you , I'm getting mine either way...
>
> heh, yeah.. that too.
>
> > > I think this is mostly surface noise, though.. I mean, do you
> really
> > > see so many lost people in your daily life?
> >
> > Yes I do. It's those that are afraid to make judgement and to hold
> > beliefs which are against the popular social conscience. Righteousness
> > for self is permissable, all else is considered discretionary abuse.
>
> this is really what you see..? I see people born into a world they
> didn't build, and don't understand... I see them muck through as best
> they can figure out... I see them love each other, and hurt each other,
> and laugh, and cry, be giving, and selfish... work too hard, and eat
> too much, and smoke too many cigarettes... I hear them tell me - "look
> how beautiful that sunset is".
And you see their innocence under it all. And that makes you very
special.
>
> perhaps you're right in a way though... we have been fundamentally
> robbed of our humanity by the onslaught of commerce culture... "we're
> only as good as what we can buy". Not many people can let go of that..
> take a stand for their beliefs that contradict the "money(power)=
> personal validation" mantra that is shoved down our throats from birth.
>
> most people I know are poor though... we've been excluded from the
> game from the get-go.. so we spend most of our time just getting by..
> surviving.. and enjoying when and what we can. Just like humanity has
> always operated, since we began.. 2.7 million years ago.
>
> Righteousness for self.. what do you mean when you say that..?
I was not promoting it in this context, I was being facitious. The
self-righteousness part meant only being accountable to yourself.
Attempting to judge beyond this line is seen as discretionary abuse.
i.e. you have the right, just use it in a manner that we see fit.
Therefore, in a manner of speaking we're bullied back into 'just minding
our own business'. Which, in my opinion, is counterproductive to
building a cohesive culture.
>
> >The
> > warriors against bigotry and prejudice are as narrow-minded and
> > ferocious as those they condemn.
>
> "I hate hate." heh.. yes, this is a dangerous conundrum...
> these "warriors" are just that.. warriors.. War is an agent of
> commerce, in any context.
>
> > I don't... not really -
> > > they define their lives with different symbols than I do, maybe...
> but
> > > most of the people in my life aren't shallow and narrcissitic,
> > > astheticized and greed driven... most of them couldn't define
> > > postmodernism either, though. :)
> >
> > I can't either. But I think it's a condition which promotes personal
> > agenda over community.
>
> I think it is a question, more than a condition... "postmodern" is one
> of those words who's definition can be tailored to whatever your
> personal agenda might happen to be at the time you're writing it...
>
> To me, postmodernism is a question - it is important to question your
> society and your culture.. even to the point of their obliteration...
> through death comes trancendence.
Good point. I think it's time we blow this place apart and start fresh.
Seriously though, we haven't had a catalysmic crisis in awhile. I think
we're overdue.
> > > the postmodern wasteland, same as everyone else here. Sometimes we
> get
> > > to fall in love with butterflies though. :)
> > >
> > > and isn't that what it's all about, really? :)
> >
> > Everybody being in the same boat just tells us that the effect is
> > universal, not whether it's good or bad.
>
> good or bad? Dimitri.. do you honestly think that rules, social
> constructs.. systems.. cultures... do you honestly think that those
> things can be our answers anymore?
When did culture, systems, ,social contruct and rules become inadequate?
Dimitri
Dan wrote:
>
> Dimitri wrote:
>
> >>>I don't think we're on the edge- I think we *are* lost to the bullying
> that we just be ourselves and everything will be okay.
> If we concede to that then there is no purpose in aspiring to be greater
> than what we are.<<<
>
> Interesting take. I think that who we are, each and every one of us, is 100%
> wonderful. All of the posturing and bullying and attitude simply covers it
> up. To the extent that we can strip all that away and actually *get* to who
> we are...that's when the greatness appears.
>
I believe that.
So, how would someone go about this?
>
Dan
>>I believe that.
>>So, how would someone go about this?
Well, that's the trick, isn't it? I think it all comes down to love. With
love, one can enter the heart, and by that path discover individual
passions, dreams and truths with a clarity not otherwise in evidence.
Dan
--
To reply, remove ooo from address
---------------------------------------------
Dimitri wrote in message <3A1B1887...@the-spa.com>...
Dimitri
Dan wrote:
>
> Dimitri wrote:
>
> >>I believe that.
>
> >>So, how would someone go about this?
>
> Well, that's the trick, isn't it? I think it all comes down to love. With
> love, one can enter the heart, and by that path discover individual
> passions, dreams and truths with a clarity not otherwise in evidence.
You may not believe it. I threw out my first response to your previous
reply because I was getting crossed eyed and didn't have time to proof
it, but I went on about how love gives us the strength to sacrifice
ourselves in order to find these 'truths' we search for. We have to be
courageous enough to let go of our safe perches....and so forth..
It must be something in the air.
: )
>
> Dan
> --
> To reply, remove ooo from address
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> Dimitri wrote in message <3A1B1887...@the-spa.com>...
> >
> >
> >Dan wrote:
> >>
> >> Dimitri wrote:
> >>
> >> >>>I don't think we're on the edge- I think we *are* lost to the bullying
> >> that we just be ourselves and everything will be okay.
> >> If we concede to that then there is no purpose in aspiring to be greater
> >> than what we are.<<<
> >>
> >> Interesting take. I think that who we are, each and every one of us, is
> 100%
> >> wonderful. All of the posturing and bullying and attitude simply covers
> it
> >> up. To the extent that we can strip all that away and actually *get* to
> who
> >> we are...that's when the greatness appears.
> >>
> >
> >I believe that.
> >
> >So, how would someone go about this?
--
Panta Design Studio
Dan
>>>You may not believe it. I threw out my first response to your previous
reply because I was getting crossed eyed and didn't have time to proof it,
but I went on about how love gives us the strength to sacrifice ourselves in
order to find these 'truths' we search for. We have to be courageous enough
to let go of our safe perches....and so forth..<<<
I believe you! Sometimes I write myself into a circle and end up starting
over or tossing the whole post. Thanks for your response.
Dan
--
To reply, remove ooo from address
---------------------------------------------
Dimitri wrote in message <3A1B6383...@the-spa.com>...
Dimitri
Dan wrote:
>
> Dimitri wrote:
>
> >>>You may not believe it. I threw out my first response to your previous
> reply because I was getting crossed eyed and didn't have time to proof it,
> but I went on about how love gives us the strength to sacrifice ourselves in
> order to find these 'truths' we search for. We have to be courageous enough
> to let go of our safe perches....and so forth..<<<
>
> I believe you! Sometimes I write myself into a circle and end up starting
> over or tossing the whole post. Thanks for your response.
>
> Dan
> --
Well actually, I was thinking how coincidental that we shared similar
thoughts on such an abstract subject.
Happy Turkey.