the estimated value of your pirate software?

[James Greig]

in response to the 'pirated software... a necessary evil?' question:

i would guess that the value of the pirate software i've got installed at
the moment is over $5000. that's taking into account all the major graphics
programs, some music software and a few other bits and pieces. like a lot of
people now i guess i share software using the same methods as i do to share
mp3s. that is definitely not good news for the people programming this
software!!!!!!!

but i don't see myself as a criminal. i'm a student at the moment, with no
earned wage, and an actual completely disposable income of at very most
$1500 a year maximum which has to pay for clothes, materials etc. so there
is no way i could afford to pay for all my software.

i don't feel bad though because in know as soon as i start working i will
start to buy legit software. it's fine for people to try out programs for
free so long as they eventually pay for them in my opinion . having spent 4
years using photshop already, i'll be sticking with it for years and years
to come - so in some ways adobe have assured my future custom already. who
the hell wants to use 'substandard tools' anyway???????

adobe, corel & macromedia seem to be doing fine despite the millions of
pirate copies of their software in circulation. one of the reasons they keep
on churning out new versions of their software is surely to keep people
coughing up for the new versions that are only slightly more advanced than
the last one. the whole computer industry is just as devious and corrupted
as the people whom it serves. present company excluded of course (:_:)

so yes - pirated software is a necessary evil!

[Dan]

So stealing is okay but you draw the line at war? Interesting.

Dan
http://www.FreelanceWorkshops.com

"James Greig" <idontl...@myplace.ok> wrote in message
news:3dc9...@212.67.96.135...

[Don Link]

Go away. Who cares, including the people who use illegal software. Tis
better to keep quiet and have people think you a fool than to open your
mouth and remove all doubt.

"James Greig" <idontl...@myplace.ok> wrote in message
news:3dc9...@212.67.96.135...

[James Greig]

ok maybe i didn't put that brilliantly the first time. the web has completed
altered traditional notions of ownership, authorship, privacy etc etc.
digital copies of files are perfect and cost free so its hardly suprising
that the music industry in particular is having to re-assess the way it
operates. when you copy something are you stealing it? well yes according to
judicial law, but it's not that simple.

likewise with software - it doesn't have to adhere to the the capitalist
model of producer/consumer. the emergence of open-source programming is an
obvious example of this. free sofware can really help out people with
limited funds... which is why a lot of countries are switching to Linux
instead of Microsoft. just because you have to pay for Windows doesnt mean
it's the best way to run your computer!

worse still, Microsoft is fighting back in devious ways to keep its
stranglehold on the market. See
http://www.businessday.co.za/bday/content/direct/1,3523,1195833-6078-0,00.ht
ml for a very very intersting article on this....

for example Microsoft responded by an attempt in Peru to switch the whole
country over to open source by enlisting "the US ambassador in Lima to try
to persuade the Peruvians to kill the legislation" can you believe
this!!!!!!!! i can't work out what to make of bill g these days... he is
holding a lot at stake here...

[James Greig]

sorry that was meant to be
http://www.businessday.co.za/bday/content/direct/1,3523,1195833-6078-0,00.ht
ml

[LauraK]

>k maybe i didn't put that brilliantly the first time. the web has completed
>altered traditional notions of ownership, authorship, privacy etc etc.
>digital copies of files are perfect and cost free so its hardly suprising
>that the music industry in particular is having to re-assess the way it
>operates. when you copy something are you stealing it? well yes according to
>judicial law, but it's not that simple.

I hope the web is used to rip off every idea you have and to steal everything
you create.
Just like you are ripping off and stealing from others.

lau...@madmousergraphics.com
http://www.madmousergraphics.com
web design, print design, photography

[LauraK]

>but i don't see myself as a criminal. i'm a student at the moment, with no
>earned wage, and an actual completely disposable income of at very most
>$1500 a year maximum which has to pay for clothes, materials etc. so there
>is no way i could afford to pay for all my software.

Then get off your ass and go get a job! And when you graduate you'll be whining
about how you can't get a job paying $50,000 a year right out of college
because you don't have any experience and how were you supposed to get
experience when you were in school?
We've had the beat generation, the love generation, the X generation and the Y
generation.
Now we've got the Whine Generation.

[Harfmil]

Laura,

You seem to take an angry, childish stance about the whole subject
rather then having a decent conversation. Although I'm somewhere on the
fence about the whole subject, wishing ill will to others certainly doesn't
help your argument.

Everyone,

Something to think about as far as theft goes (as someone who works in a
print shop) is font usage. Do you own every font installed on your system?
Have you ever used a font for a project that a customer has provided for
you. In the strictest of terms, installing a font you have not purchased is
theft and is stealing someone else's work. So does that mean that everyone
runs out or goes online and purchases any fonts they do not have for a
printing project?

--
Harfmil

"LauraK" <lk...@aol.com11o1al1> wrote in message
news:20021107034531...@mb-fh.aol.com...

[LauraK]

>You seem to take an angry, childish stance about the whole subject
>rather then having a decent conversation. Although I'm somewhere on the
>fence about the whole subject, wishing ill will to others certainly doesn't
>help your argument.
>

You advocate stealing to get anything you want and I'm being childish?

>Do you own every font installed on your system?
>Have you ever used a font for a project that a customer has provided for
>you. In the strictest of terms, installing a font you have not purchased is
>theft and is stealing someone else's work.

Of course I own the fonts I use. If I don't have it I write the cost of getting
it into the project.
This is going to come as a huge shock to you, but there are actually people in
the world who don't casually steal just because they want something.

[Technor]

Meaning ?? line at war??

"Dan" <D...@FreelanceWorkshops.com> wrote in message
news:vYny9.3280$SY3.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

[SpaceGirl]

This whole argument is kind of... twisted;

Stealing software is of course illegal, but is there anyone in this group
who can honestly say that they have never used illegal software? Do you have
a copy of Office at work, which you also have installed at home? Do you have
a license for Photoshop for ALL the machines you have it installed on? Of
course this doesn't make it right; it's just the way it is, and until
software company's respect their users (realistic prices / less bugs)
perhaps this will be the way it'll always be. You could counter this saying
"well they'd lower the prices if less people stole their products", but then
everything gets all chicken-and-egg and the argument will never end. But
this brings me onto my next point;

Do software companies actively encourage piracy?

I think the answer is yes, but they will never admit it. For the many
thousands of people with illegal copies of Photoshop on their machines at
home, would they ever buy a licence if they did have the money? Probably
not. Do they use Photoshop commercially? Again probably not. And think of it
this way; would Adobe prefer 10,000 people using Photoshop at home
illegally, who'd never buy it anyway; or would they prefer those users to
all be using a free version of Paint Shop Pro (which is of course a
competitor)? I think the answer is obvious. And lets face it, Adobe don't
put much effort into copy protection at all - Adobe aren't alone in that
one.

The more people using their software the better (even if they're not paying
for it, it encourages *commercial* purchases).

I'm not an advocate of the use of illegal software; all our Adobe /
Macromedia / MS software here and at our home studio is license & legal -
but I'll be honest; I have used illegal software in the past, just like
everyone else reading this. Be it unlicensed use of Fonts, or that one extra
copy of Photoshop 7 sat on the laptop that really should have it's own
license.

m.

"James Greig" <idontl...@myplace.ok> wrote in message
news:3dc9...@212.67.96.135...

[Technor]

Nobodys getting hurt in this process. A few bucks are lost, but a few
bucks are gained by the more needy, and thats not bad. For those who have
everything its hard to understand but its important to see the other side
too.
Hari.

"James Greig" <idontl...@myplace.ok> wrote in message
news:3dc9...@212.67.96.135...

[Ben Woodward]

A few bucks are lost *to whom*? You think these things just get snatched
from mid-air? Every dollar you steal is a dollar from someone else's
pocket, my friend, a dollar that could have could have gone to its
rightful earner.

And who made you the king of defining the word "needy"? Software doesn't
even *begin* to fall into the realm of life's needs, my friend. But I'm
glad you think it's "not bad." Must help you feel better about yourself.
Goody.

Oh, but then I must not understand, because I "have everything," right?
Stop playing class warefare and get back to work, so maybe one day you
can start paying for your "needs" and stop ripping off all those "rich,
greedy, lucky people" who work so damn hard to provide for the "unlucky"
people's needs.

Blech...

Ben

[Technor]

Relax, I am not starting any class warfare. But thats the situation here in
this part of the world. And I do buy real software whenever I get money, and
as such i dont encourage it. But there are many who try their best to make
ends meet and scrape some food out of that. Its about those people we are
talking about, not the ones who can afford but yet try to save the measly
bucks.

> And who made you the king of defining the word "needy"? Software doesn't
> even *begin* to fall into the realm of life's needs, my friend. But I'm
> glad you think it's "not bad." Must help you feel better about yourself.
> Goody.

Says who?? Pls move out to an asian or african country and then convince
yourself what realm it falls into.

> Oh, but then I must not understand, because I "have everything," right?
> Stop playing class warefare and get back to work, so maybe one day you
> can start paying for your "needs" and stop ripping off all those "rich,
> greedy, lucky people" who work so damn hard to provide for the "unlucky"
> people's needs.

Ripping off the rich? Dont think so. you are off the point here, the
thing is about meeting the basic needs of their people and themselves, not
trying to build castles.
Hari.

[James Greig]

> I hope the web is used to rip off every idea you have and to steal
everything
> you create.
> Just like you are ripping off and stealing from others.

Thank you very much for that Laura. But if buying software means that I
produce work that looks like yours then I'd rather not thanks.

[James Greig]

"SpaceGirl" <spac...@subhuman.net> wrote in message
news:uskk0eq...@corp.supernews.com...

> This whole argument is kind of... twisted;
>
> Stealing software is of course illegal, but is there anyone in this group
> who can honestly say that they have never used illegal software? Do you
have
> a copy of Office at work, which you also have installed at home? Do you
have
> a license for Photoshop for ALL the machines you have it installed on? Of
> course this doesn't make it right; it's just the way it is, and until
> software company's respect their users (realistic prices / less bugs)
> perhaps this will be the way it'll always be. You could counter this
saying
> "well they'd lower the prices if less people stole their products", but
then
> everything gets all chicken-and-egg and the argument will never end. But
> this brings me onto my next point;

Well said Spacegirl.

[Carol Ott]

I love the way these things always degrade into personal attacks....as if
that's all you have left to stand on.

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
REMOVE 'NOSPAM' TO REPLY.

"James Greig" <idontl...@myplace.ok> wrote in message

news:3dca...@212.67.96.135...

[Tammy F]

Piracy is the vicious game that all of us play when we get sucked into the
world of computers. Do you think that someone loses his job when Photoshop
7 is pirated, or does it give a whole slew of software engineers a new
project developing Photoshop 8 with a more difficult registration process.
That will be cracked, too. Photoshop 9, 10, 11... That is life. I
remember buying my first VCR for $600, now you can buy one for $50. Soon
VCR's will be obsolete, then it turns to DVD's. What will it be next? It's
never ending. Same with computers. That's why some accessories aren't
compliant with, let's say, Window 98. I got a beautiful scanner from my
boyfriend because XP didn't support the scanner he had, so he had to go buy
a new one. It's a vicious cycle. If it morally bothers you to use
shareware, don't. For most of the real world, that struggles paycheck to
paycheck, you use what you can get from wherever you can get it. I don't
cheat on my taxes, I'm a good mother to my children, and I don't lie. If
someone asked me if I use shareware, I would tell them the truth. Morally,
in my mind, I am a good person doing what I have to do to survive.
Children, stop bickering and passing judgement, that's not your place!
Peace Out
Tammy

"James Greig" <idontl...@myplace.ok> wrote in message

news:3dc9...@212.67.96.135...

[LauraK]

>I love the way these things always degrade into personal attacks....as if
>that's all you have left to stand on.

They always do. It's all they've got.
I hope everyone has noticed that none of the advocates of stealing software so
that they can use their incredible talents has had the guts to post any of
their work on the web.

[Carol Ott]

I think you've confused the meaning of the word "shareware". You may want
to look it up.

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
REMOVE 'NOSPAM' TO REPLY.

"Tammy F" <t.fu...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:Pgyy9.4115$Dc4....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...

[Hunter Elliott]

"Tammy F" <t.fu...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:Pgyy9.4115$Dc4....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...

> shareware, don't. For most of the real world, that struggles paycheck to
> paycheck, you use what you can get from wherever you can get it. I don't
> cheat on my taxes, I'm a good mother to my children, and I don't lie.

Um, not to put too fine a point on it, but if you're pirating software and
not reporting it on your taxes (technically, wouldn't that be income - i.e.,
getting a retail product for free? you've rec'd a work-related product with
a monetary value that really can't be justified as falling under "gift"
since it's not a legal copy), aren't you both cheating on your taxes and
lying?

It's kind of like how in Kansas if you're caught dealing drugs, you're
charged not only with the possession of the drug, etc, but you're charged
with tax evasion because you've not reported the income and not paid taxes
on the product.

[Carol Ott]

Hell -- at this point I'm just having trouble keeping track of who's who in
the discussion. ;-)

I do, however, think it's pretty amusing that people feel the need to make
personal remarks about people or their work -- as if that would phase most
of us....yeah, right. Tell 'em the same thing I do -- YOU DON'T PAY MY RENT
BABY, SO BACK OFF. My *clients'* opinions are the ones that
matter....because they DO pay my rent...indirectly.

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
REMOVE 'NOSPAM' TO REPLY.

"LauraK" <lk...@aol.com11o1al1> wrote in message
news:20021107134151...@mb-ms.aol.com...

[Cutterjon]

Thanks, SpaceGirl. Glad to see some people have their heads straight.

--
CutterJon

[Tammy F]

My bad! I know that what I've obtained from peer to peer is still illegal,
and technically not shareware, but I'm not profitting from it. I'm not
condoning piracy, but learning from it is great. We all justify what we do
in our own minds to make it right. It's one thing to use the software for
learning purposes and another to make money off of it. I'm in a thrift mode
right now, and when I finish school, I'll have the knowledge to know which
programs are worth buying. Would you buy that BMW without test driving it
first? It's definitely a catch 22, I know people that have used peer to
peer to try programs so that they don't spend a fortune on junk software.
Now corporations that are using pirated software will pay in the end with
lawsuits up the #*%! If the software is good enough, people will pay for
it.

"Carol Ott" <cs...@NOSPAMcsottdesign.com> wrote in message
news:TByy9.525$Im2....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[Jeff Engel]

but i don't see myself as a criminal. i'm a student at the moment, with no
earned wage, and an actual completely disposable income of at very most
$1500 a year maximum which has to pay for clothes, materials etc. so there

is no way i could afford to pay for all my software.????

Ok, let me get this straight.. your a guy with no money, no class and no job to make a couple hundred bucks.. so you steal something to make up for your shortcomings?

"i don't have any money and want that thing so badly.. i think ill steal it!.. me being broke makes it all right i guess"

You sound like every other low class thieving fool that steals what he/she believes to be necessary to them in life (clothes, cars, candy, stereos).... do us a favor, go out and get a waiter job or work at a store.. why rely on mommies monthly allowance?  What a cop-out.. Next you'll justify stealing all sorts of things.

This software is a commodity, a commodity that, if you play your cards right, will be a tool that is indispensable in your future career... stealing it to use it now will "cheapen" you... have a little backbone, man. Save a couple o hundred and buy it..... OR, have you ever though of those educational software distributors?  They offer all major label software app's at more than 50% off if you go to school. Try doing your "real life" homework grade school boy.
 
 

[Tammy F]

How would you consider it income if I'm not making any money with it. Just
researching the product for my future career. When I actually have the
knowledge to use it profittably, by then there will be a new revision and I
will at that time buy it since hopefully I won't be poverty level anymore.
I'm starting to feel like I shouldn't be here, since I'm not a GD, YET. I
feel a little naive and inferior to y'all, but everyone here is helping me
learn alot. Point well taken, thank you!!!
Tammy

"Hunter Elliott" <nos...@bsda-transit.org> wrote in message
news:OIyy9.1144$8k4.68...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...

[Toonman]

Your statement is crap. If you're a student your school has computer labs
where you can take advantage of legally licensed software purchased through
educational discounts. If you've got $5000.00 worth of pirated software on
your computer it's because you're a theif not a student. A true struggling
student doesn't have the means to even own a computer.

If you're wanting to brag about your pirated software then stand up and say
you're happy about stealing the software. Don't lay this student living on
$1500 a year sob story down because most of us here have been there, done
that, and not had to scam the goods to get through.

Toonman

"James Greig" <idontl...@myplace.ok> wrote in message
news:3dc9...@212.67.96.135...
> in response to the 'pirated software... a necessary evil?' question:
>
> i would guess that the value of the pirate software i've got installed at
> the moment is over $5000. that's taking into account all the major
graphics
> programs, some music software and a few other bits and pieces. like a lot
of
> people now i guess i share software using the same methods as i do to
share
> mp3s. that is definitely not good news for the people programming this
> software!!!!!!!
>

> but i don't see myself as a criminal. i'm a student at the moment, with no
> earned wage, and an actual completely disposable income of at very most
> $1500 a year maximum which has to pay for clothes, materials etc. so there

[Dan]

>>>A true struggling student doesn't have the means to even own a
computer.<<<

Heeeeyyyyyyy there you go!! What about THAT?!

HUH?!!!!!

Sort of like fat people pleading poverty -- I don't think so!!!

Dan
http://www.FreelanceWorkshops.com

"Toonman" <too...@NOSPAMtoonman.com> wrote in message
news:PDzy9.8937$6g.32...@news1.news.adelphia.net...

[Fungusamungus]

Here's another moral/ethical question:

You steal software, you learn it, get a job. Somebody else *pays* for the
software, learns it, but loses a job position to you.

Is that fair?

"Ben Woodward" <bwoo...@perpetuainteractive.com> wrote in message
news:3DCA7814...@perpetuainteractive.com...

[Fungusamungus]

Anybody got a ton of cheese? We need it to go with all the whine... :Ş

[Fungusamungus]

"Technor" <hari_k...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aqdu8v$96p7m$1...@ID-35318.news.dfncis.de...

| Relax, I am not starting any class warfare. But thats the situation here
in
| this part of the world. And I do buy real software whenever I get money,
and
| as such i dont encourage it.

I think you meant "don't discourage it". (just trying to clear this up, as
parts of this discussion are already turning ugly, I didn't want a little
misplaced english to be the flint).

[Fungusamungus]

I know this is going to sound odd, but I believe a huge help (at least as
far as the people who like to "evaluate then buy" goes), would be for
companies like Adobe to offer 60 trial periods with NO limitations.

This way, you get into the software more, get to actually save and use some
of the 'results', and if you decide it's worth it to you to continue, then
buy it. I think *one* problem (and yes, it's a decidedly small problem in
the scope of this discussion, but to remedy it really doesn't amount to much
effort on the manufacturers behalf) is that nobody wants to sit and play
with a program for hours, only to not be able to actually save the file
properly at the end (there is the screen cap method, but then the image is
uneditable).

Like I said, it's only a possible solution to one small problem (the two
problems here seem to be: evaluating software for purchase, and simply just
obtaining it for learning. Demos are for evaluating, and should be broadened
in their usage, IMO. For learning, stealing/pirating is not the answer).

[Hunter Elliott]

"Tammy F" <t.fu...@attbi.com> wrote in message

news:Qfzy9.48217$ar4.116570@sccrnsc03...

> How would you consider it income if I'm not making any money with it.

because you've received a product with a set monetary value - minor detail
you've received a stolen product, it still has monetary value. If I do
business with you and instead of a fixed dollar amount we exchange goods or
services (remember the barter system?), that does not mean you're not making
"money" with the exchange. The exchanged goods and/or services still have a
set monetary value and must be reported as income and therefore be taxed.

> researching the product for my future career. When I actually have the
> knowledge to use it profittably, by then there will be a new revision and
I
> will at that time buy it since hopefully I won't be poverty level anymore.

Sorry, that doesn't wash. You're only going to be paying for items now if
you know how to use it? Gee, I don't know how to use that new car, so I'm
going to steal it until I get enough experience with it and then buy the
next one but only if I can afford it otherwise I'll steal the next version?
I'd love to see you use that as a defense in court.

> I'm starting to feel like I shouldn't be here, since I'm not a GD, YET. I
> feel a little naive and inferior to y'all, but everyone here is helping me
> learn alot. Point well taken, thank you!!!

You have every right to be here, Tammy. :)

[Cutterjon]

In article <f4By9.79658$dn3.3...@twister.southeast.rr.com>,
Fungusamungus <fungu...@warmmail.com> wrote:

> Here's another moral/ethical question:
>
> You steal software, you learn it, get a job. Somebody else *pays* for the
> software, learns it, but loses a job position to you.
>
> Is that fair?

Is it illegal to know the contents of a book if you haven't paid for
it? No. Is it "unfair"? Of course not. Who would think that?

By that logic, someone might feel more justified to deserve a job
because they payed MORE for the software, too. Can you buy your way
into a job? Let me know, because I'm willing to pay for a better one!!

Life isn't fair. Is it fair that unattractive people do worse in job
interviews? It's purely the interviewer's discression. Is that fair or
immoral or unethical? Of course not.

It wasn't the possesion of the software that got the job, it was the
possession of knowledge (presumably). Maybe one guy pays for the
software, the other guy learns it in school. Maybe one guy learns it
purely from reading books.
How about this: Some people have a higher IQ and can grasp concepts
better than the next guy-is that fair?

It's hard to qualify the value of information once it's been obtained.
Employers don't care. They'd probably prefer the most resouceful
employee, anyway. Especially with things like knowledge. (although they
might rightly not want a thief!)

Knowledge is far more valuable in this world than any other "commodity".
The CIA doesn't pay royalties on the info that they steal.
Schools don't have the market cornered on the dispensation of
knowledge, either, so I can't buy the argument that "I paid for my
education, therefore I'm more entitled."
I happened to pay for my education, but to the people who gained theirs
by hook or by crook, then mo' powa to ya.
I'm sure Adobe appreciates a more fluent user base, also-it can only
help sales in the long run.
--
CutterJon

[Rohit Seth]

> I love the way these things always degrade into personal attacks....as if
> that's all you have left to stand on.
>
> Carol

Very interesting......... Carol, these words of wisdom coming from you...
considering you've been launching the most blistering attack on me in this
thread.....even though you know that each and every software I own is legit.

Don't like it when it falls back on you, huh?

Rohit

[Carol Ott]

Well the difference is that if I were to test drive a BMW, I would do it
with the permission of the car dealer -- I wouldn't rip of my neighbour's
car in the middle of the night. Jeez....the way people use these
analogies.....

And by the way, people -- that Z3 drives like a dream......(sigh). Alas, I
think it will be a station wagon for me.

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
REMOVE 'NOSPAM' TO REPLY.

"Tammy F" <t.fu...@attbi.com> wrote in message

news:%0zy9.48034$ar4.116268@sccrnsc03...

[Carol Ott]

You have *completely* confused me with that one, Dan.....

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
REMOVE 'NOSPAM' TO REPLY.

"Dan" <D...@FreelanceWorkshops.com> wrote in message
news:oiAy9.446$hK4....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

[Carol Ott]

PFFFTTTT!!!! You can stay as long as you like! Friday drinks are on me.
;-)

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
REMOVE 'NOSPAM' TO REPLY.

"Tammy F" <t.fu...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:Qfzy9.48217$ar4.116570@sccrnsc03...

[Carol Ott]

It would be nice, too, if you could use *all* of the features of a program
like Photoshop. I've noticed that a lot of web-only people are somewhat
lost when it comes to the print specifications for graphics, even when
they're only going to be printed digitally. When you can't print anything
from the tryout version, it kind of leaves you hanging...

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
REMOVE 'NOSPAM' TO REPLY.

"Fungusamungus" <fungu...@warmmail.com> wrote in message
news:g4By9.79660$dn3.3...@twister.southeast.rr.com...

[Peach]

WOW,

What a topic, the thread is at 120+ replies.........I might read thru it one
day, but until then:

Can someone sum up the consensus?....LOL

Lazy boy Peach

[Carol Ott]

I haven't called you names, and I haven't commented on your work habits...or
your work, for that matter. I don't like your views on pirated software,
and I was very clear about that -- but you also have to understand -- you're
the one who introduced the topic...not me. So yes, there *is* a
difference -- and I wasn't only referring to the personal sniping at me --
others received the same, and it's sad.

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
REMOVE 'NOSPAM' TO REPLY.

"Rohit Seth" <gray...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:PwCy9.12969$MGm1...@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...

[Rohit Seth]

All right !!!

I've been watching this thread go ballistic and completely off the mark
within the last 24 hrs.

Since I was the one who started the thread in question, I'd like to finally
remind people about a few critical things that they missed along the way :

1. This thread wasn't about the "justification" of pirated software. The
issue I put up was that do the software companies eventually benefit from
this piracy or not. Are they party to this rampant activity? Do they
consider it as a future investment or a market-share garnering tactic?

2. As for those of you (the Laura's and Carol's, in particular), who feel
that I have "deprived" the large companies of something and have "stolen"
something....may I remind you that TWICE in the thread (including the
original post), I have stated that each and every software that I have is
100% legit. So please tell me one company that has lost anything in the
bargain on account of me.

3. This discussion is not about me, my values, ethics or morals. I am not
justifying anything, neither do I need to seek anyone's approval or
dissaproval. How I spent my life is purely my business, the choices that I
have made are the ones that I always take full responsibility for. I merely
mentioned my using pirated software in the past in an attempt to put the
question in debate in perspective (obviously, either I wasn't lucid enough,
or people chose to read what they wanted to read).

4. There are people who have taken to liberty of getting personal, such as
Andrew Banks who stooped to name calling. May I remind you that I have a
pretty impressive vocabulary as well, and the only reason you're not seeing
the undesirable part of it is because I choose not to use it in this forum.
Stay with the issue, dont get personal.

5. We don't live in a World that is just Black and White. There are always
shades of Gray. No person has ever made ALL the right choices in life. We
make the choice that best goes with our condition and values. No, they are
not always right, and the person making these choices always know it. But it
would be wrong to cast judgement without knowing the facts.

6. Legality/Illegality of the tools dont and shouldn't eclipse the talent
that lies in using them. Lets not mix the 2 up simply to substantiate an
inherently weak arguement.

Thank you for the time and effort you have put into this thread.

Rohit

[Harfmil]

First of all, I never stated which side of the fence I sit on concerning
this subject, as there are many objectives to consider, because not
everything is so plainly right or wrong. It is childish to wish ill will on
anyone for simply stating their opinion, regardless of the fact of whether
you agree with it or not. Just because you come from a certain set of
values and morals does not mean that everyone else (especially those outside
the US) has the same. Which in turn, does not necessarily mean that you are
automatically right. When faced with the cliché scenario, if you had a baby
and it was starving, would you steal food to feed it? I realize that a life
is much more important then designing or software, but under the opinions
you've stated you would not do this cause it would be wrong. But you have
to admit that it does at least the make the situation a little more gray.
Second, I would love to see the face of your customer when you tell them
that their bill has just increased $200 because you don't have a font that
they have chosen.

--
Harfmil

"LauraK" <lk...@aol.com11o1al1> wrote in message

news:20021107041809...@mb-fh.aol.com...
> >You seem to take an angry, childish stance about the whole subject
> >rather then having a decent conversation. Although I'm somewhere on the
> >fence about the whole subject, wishing ill will to others certainly
doesn't
> >help your argument.
> >
>
> You advocate stealing to get anything you want and I'm being childish?
>
> >Do you own every font installed on your system?
> >Have you ever used a font for a project that a customer has provided for
> >you. In the strictest of terms, installing a font you have not purchased
is
> >theft and is stealing someone else's work.
>
> Of course I own the fonts I use. If I don't have it I write the cost of
getting
> it into the project.
> This is going to come as a huge shock to you, but there are actually
people in
> the world who don't casually steal just because they want something.

[Carol Ott]

I never said one damn thing about you depriving the software companies of
anything -- don't make things up. I mentioned the employees who worked hard
on the software, but I said nothing about the company -- I couldn't give a
crap if Adobe went out of business tomorrow, frankly.

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
REMOVE 'NOSPAM' TO REPLY.

"Rohit Seth" <gray...@lycos.com> wrote in message

news:tOCy9.13143$MGm1...@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...

[Rohit Seth]

Hmm........well, please tell me how am I supposed to read the following :

1."That's just pathetic. If you don't have the money for the tools of the
trade, you find another trade. What about all of the people here (and
elsewhere) who actually *paid* for the software? And who paid for the
classes to learn how to use the programs? Why should you get a free ride?
Save the sob stories for someone else -- it's just disgusting.

2. "Being poor is no excuse for being a thief."

3. "I find it highly ironic that a lot of the software developers that
worked
their asses off were Indians and Pakistanis who were at one time in the same
situation as our friend Rohit here. Somehow I don't think they all made
their living by stealing from others until they could get a job with Adobe."

4. "And I find your trying to justify theft rather disgusting."

You have said the above things in various parts of this thread and now
you're telling me that its nothing personal. Clearly, you're very against
stealing, but employees get their salary........its the companies who're
profits get affected by piracy (if they do at all......which was the main
issue of the discussion).

But then........let me give you the benefit of the doubt here. Even if the
employees get affected, after I've bought each and every software, how have
I wronged them in any fashion?

And thanks for the offer to come to Baltimore. THAT was appreciated. I mean
it. It was a really nice thing to say.

Rohit

"Carol Ott" <cs...@NOSPAMcsottdesign.com> wrote in message

news:BfDy9.281$tW4....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[James Greig]

> Your statement is crap. If you're a student your school has computer labs
> where you can take advantage of legally licensed software purchased
through
> educational discounts. If you've got $5000.00 worth of pirated software
on
> your computer it's because you're a theif not a student. A true
struggling
> student doesn't have the means to even own a computer.
>

Take a look back, I never claimed to be a stuggling student. i just said
that my priorities for spending my income lie elsewhere for the time being.
I know that it's no excuse anyway to say that students should be let off.

I never wanted this to turn into a*@%$ing daytime chat television style
debate so i'm gonna take a chill pill before those two big bouncers standing
behind me come over and haul me off stage. some of the reactions to my
statment are fair enough but the ones wishing me bad fortune are a <little>
ott.

It's been an intersting debate though for sure. But this newsgroup is full
of some quite old fashioned views in my opinion.

[James Greig]

>I hope everyone has noticed that none of the advocates of stealing software
so
>that they can use their incredible talents has had the guts to post any of
>their work on the web.

http://go.to/headscan
www.glasgowhousetheory.com
www.deirdre-edwards.co.uk
www.jca-uk.com

Ok ok I admit I'm a coward as well as being evil and dishonest. What are you
gonna tell me next - that I'm going to hell for this - I thought that God
forgave sinners though?

[LauraK]

> When faced with the cliché scenario, if you had a baby
>and it was starving, would you steal food to feed it?

We're talking about people stealing software they don't have to have simply
because they're too lazy to work and earn money to buy it.

> Second, I would love to see the face of your customer when you tell them
>that their bill has just increased $200 because you don't have a font that
>they have chosen.

You really are clueless.

[Cutterjon]

In article <3dcaf...@athena.netset.com>, Peach
<peac...@pulsLLPP124enet.com> wrote:

> WOW,
>
> What a topic, the thread is at 120+ replies.........I might read thru it one
> day, but until then:
>
> Can someone sum up the consensus?....LOL
>
> Lazy boy Peach
>

Sure. I'll do it.

80% of the replies were from 6 or 7 people who apparently spend a
fortune on software.
20% were from 4 or 5 people foolish enough to argue with them with no
ethical ground to stand on.

90% of the people reading this thread opted to keep silent, probably to
avoid self-incrimination.

--
CutterJon

[LauraK]

>http://go.to/headscan

Purple page with narrow dark purple line on upper left corner. Nothing else.

>www.glasgowhousetheory.com

Said I had to download software I'd never heard of. I didn't. Waited 30 seconds
for site to download. None of the links work.

>www.deirdre-edwards.co.uk
Commerical website. Not bad. Basic grey on blue grey. At least the links work.

>www.jca-uk.com
>
A commercial website. Most of the links don't work. Link to the company that
supposedly designed the site brings up an "under construction" page.

[Rohit Seth]

Laura, I went to your site..........the link to dirtpix.com gave a Gateway
Timeout error.

I guess talent doesn't have much to do with the legality of the software,
does it?

Rohit

"LauraK" <lk...@aol.com11o1al1> wrote in message

news:20021107200851...@mb-ca.aol.com...

[Dan]

>>>When you can't print anything from the tryout version, it kind of leaves
you hanging...<<<

I've used Photoshop since version 3. Have yet to print anything out of it.
That's not what it's for.

Dan
http://www.FreelanceWorkshops.com

"Carol Ott" <cs...@NOSPAMcsottdesign.com> wrote in message

news:JOCy9.242$tW4....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[Carol Ott]

I liked the orange one -- with the penguins...and I didn't have to download
anything, either. But there's a missing graphic -- I think it was called
"controlpanel.gif". Loved the penguins...

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
REMOVE 'NOSPAM' TO REPLY.

"LauraK" <lk...@aol.com11o1al1> wrote in message
news:20021107200851...@mb-ca.aol.com...

[LauraK]

>Laura, I went to your site..........the link to dirtpix.com gave a Gateway
>Timeout error.
>
>I guess talent doesn't have much to do with the legality of the software,
>does it?

Comes up fine on both IE and AOL. Shows in less than 5 seconds. Pings show no
problems. Suggest you check with your ISP. You have a connection problem.

[Carol Ott]

And I was serious about it, too. There's a growing Indian/Pakistani
community here, and most of them (the medical and non-medical students
alike) either go to Johns Hopkins or U of MD. And most of the ones I've met
(usually when they're lost in the supermarket...my home away from home) come
from situations that sound similar to yours.

I may intensely dislike something you've said or done, but that doesn't
preclude me from liking you....

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
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"Rohit Seth" <gray...@lycos.com> wrote in message

news:JxDy9.16475$YSz1....@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...

[Carol Ott]

Why would you charge your client money for fonts that you have to buy?

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
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"Harfmil" <kingp...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:TcDy9.277$tW4....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[Carol Ott]

LOL -- good summary.

Now come over here so my cat can yack on you.

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
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"Cutterjon" <c...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:071120021644191208%c...@yahoo.com...

[Carol Ott]

Sooo...if you have a photo, say of your kids or whoever, and you scan it in,
and you want to make a print -- what program are you using to print out the
photo?

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
REMOVE 'NOSPAM' TO REPLY.

"Dan" <D...@FreelanceWorkshops.com> wrote in message
news:gQEy9.827$hK4....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

[Tammy F]

This has been exhausting. Not only has it deficated all over the NG, it
pooed all over the rest of the day, too. Is it Friday yet? I need that
drink!!!! Salute!!!
Tammy

"Carol Ott" <cs...@NOSPAMcsottdesign.com> wrote in message

news:ShFy9.510$tW4....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[Fungusamungus]

it's called laziness. And I mean it in general, not personally to you,
Harfmil.

There are ALWAYS options. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS!
If your baby is starving, do you seriously believe that there is *NO* other
option to get that baby fed than to steal the food?

If so, then please allow me to add a side dish of ignorance to that
laziness.

"Harfmil" <kingp...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:TcDy9.277$tW4....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[Fungusamungus]

Keep something in mind Rohit:

A lot (in fact most I'd say) of the responses were *not* in response to you.
There are others who feel pirating software is fine and dandy and have
basically stated so (not quite in those words, I'm paraphrasing), and have
attempted to justify such actions. THOSE were the bulk of messages responded
to.

But to make you happy, I'll respond to your questions below:

"Rohit Seth" <gray...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:tOCy9.13143$MGm1...@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...

| All right !!!
|
| I've been watching this thread go ballistic and completely off the mark
| within the last 24 hrs.
|
| Since I was the one who started the thread in question, I'd like to
finally
| remind people about a few critical things that they missed along the way :
|
| 1. This thread wasn't about the "justification" of pirated software. The
| issue I put up was that do the software companies eventually benefit from
| this piracy or not. Are they party to this rampant activity? Do they
| consider it as a future investment or a market-share garnering tactic?
|

No. Software companies do *not* benefit. For all those "I have
downloaded/pirated the full program to evaluate it and then bought a
copy/urged someone/company to buy several copies", there are 50, 100, 200 or
more people out there who stopped at "I have downloaded/pirated full
programs". So by you buying legit software after using illegal copies, is
still a rare exception. Many people have pirated, continue to pirate, and
continue to use those pirated copies in their "legitimate" business.

| 2. As for those of you (the Laura's and Carol's, in particular), who feel
| that I have "deprived" the large companies of something and have "stolen"
| something....may I remind you that TWICE in the thread (including the
| original post), I have stated that each and every software that I have is
| 100% legit. So please tell me one company that has lost anything in the
| bargain on account of me.
|

As I said, you are a rare exception. However, as you yourself stated, this
thread was not about you :] So in general, you started with illegal copies.
That was wrong, irregardless of how many licenses for legit copies of
software you're holding today.

| 3. This discussion is not about me, my values, ethics or morals. I am not
| justifying anything, neither do I need to seek anyone's approval or
| dissaproval. How I spent my life is purely my business, the choices that I
| have made are the ones that I always take full responsibility for. I
merely
| mentioned my using pirated software in the past in an attempt to put the
| question in debate in perspective (obviously, either I wasn't lucid
enough,
| or people chose to read what they wanted to read).

Actually, after your original post, you did indeed try to justify what you
did (whether you realize it or not). Or did you forget the "family of 3 on
90 dollars a month" thing?

|
| 4. There are people who have taken to liberty of getting personal, such as
| Andrew Banks who stooped to name calling. May I remind you that I have a
| pretty impressive vocabulary as well, and the only reason you're not
seeing
| the undesirable part of it is because I choose not to use it in this
forum.
| Stay with the issue, dont get personal.
|

Here here! I second this. The name calling is just pathetic. This is after
all a *discussion group*. And whilst as Mike would point out, you can post
anything you want, if you don't have anything to add to the discussion, then
please go find a discussion where such name calling would add something
relevant :]

| 5. We don't live in a World that is just Black and White. There are always
| shades of Gray. No person has ever made ALL the right choices in life. We
| make the choice that best goes with our condition and values. No, they
are
| not always right, and the person making these choices always know it. But
it
| would be wrong to cast judgement without knowing the facts.
|

You know what sucks though? It's when people have the *option* to do the
right thing, despite it being more difficult, but rather than put up with
that difficulty (which builds character and aspirations), they choose the
easy, and decidedly less legit path.

| 6. Legality/Illegality of the tools dont and shouldn't eclipse the talent
| that lies in using them. Lets not mix the 2 up simply to substantiate an
| inherently weak arguement.
|

It's not a weak argument. Someone could have a modicum of talent, but only
be able to afford a share ware program. They bust their butt to make
something of themselves, all legitimately, and eventually can afford the
good commercial programs.

Someone else comes along, same financial boat, but with much more talent,
and steals all the good commercial programs. Guess who gets the job? 7 out
of 10 times it's this guy, because he knows the programs more than the first
guy.

Just imagine how much better a worker the first person is, who has done
things legitimately (thus has an appreciation and respect for the way things
SHOULD be done), and busted his/her butt to get where they are
(determination). Even if this person was less talented, I'd rather hire
him/her than the thief, however talented he/she may be!

| Thank you for the time and effort you have put into this thread.
|
| Rohit
|

who, me?

[Fungusamungus]

"Cutterjon" <j...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:071120021414241483%j...@yahoo.com...
<snip>
| It's hard to qualify the value of information once it's been obtained.
| Employers don't care. They'd probably prefer the most resouceful
| employee, anyway. Especially with things like knowledge. (although they
| might rightly not want a thief!)

That's the problem (and at the center of my enquiry).

It was *how* that information was obtained. If someone busts their hump to
legally purchase and learn the software, and someone from a similar economic
status decides to just steal it and learns it, (going the legitimate but
tougher route, versus the illegal and fast route), then who deserves the
job, assuming they're both equally qualified (skill wise)?

[Carol Ott]

As an employer, I would have a really hard time hiring someone who started
their career by becoming a thief. If you'd steal from one person (or one
company) -- who's to say you wouldn't steal from me, too, if times got tough
again for you? Okay...maybe you wouldn't steal my car or come to my home
and rob me blind. But you might steal software from my business...or
computer supplies...or run up my long-distance bill...and that's not cool.

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
REMOVE 'NOSPAM' TO REPLY.

"Fungusamungus" <fungu...@warmmail.com> wrote in message
news:AFGy9.80763$dn3.3104167@twister.southeast.rr.com...

[B. Ehinger]

Ben, you've got a total stick up your ass, don't you?

Ben Woodward wrote:
> A few bucks are lost *to whom*? You think these things just get snatched
> from mid-air? Every dollar you steal is a dollar from someone else's
> pocket, my friend, a dollar that could have could have gone to its
> rightful earner.
>
> And who made you the king of defining the word "needy"? Software doesn't
> even *begin* to fall into the realm of life's needs, my friend. But I'm
> glad you think it's "not bad." Must help you feel better about yourself.
> Goody.
>
> Oh, but then I must not understand, because I "have everything," right?
> Stop playing class warefare and get back to work, so maybe one day you
> can start paying for your "needs" and stop ripping off all those "rich,
> greedy, lucky people" who work so damn hard to provide for the "unlucky"
> people's needs.
>
> Blech...
>
> Ben
>
> Technor wrote:
>
>> Nobodys getting hurt in this process. A few bucks are lost, but a few
>> bucks are gained by the more needy, and thats not bad. For those who have
>> everything its hard to understand but its important to see the other side
>> too.
>> Hari.

>>
>>
>> "James Greig" <idontl...@myplace.ok> wrote in message
>> news:3dc9...@212.67.96.135...
>>
>>> in response to the 'pirated software... a necessary evil?' question:
>>>
>>> i would guess that the value of the pirate software i've got installed at
>>> the moment is over $5000. that's taking into account all the major
>>
>>
>> graphics
>>
>>> programs, some music software and a few other bits and pieces. like a lot
>>
>>
>> of
>>
>>> people now i guess i share software using the same methods as i do to
>>
>>
>> share
>>
>>> mp3s. that is definitely not good news for the people programming this
>>> software!!!!!!!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

--
Cheers,

B

www.befreedesign.net

Take out the trailor trash to reply.

[B. Ehinger]

Fungusamungus wrote:
> Here's another moral/ethical question:
>
> You steal software, you learn it, get a job. Somebody else *pays* for the
> software, learns it, but loses a job position to you.
>
> Is that fair?

Yes, if they are a worse designer than you.

>
> "Ben Woodward" <bwoo...@perpetuainteractive.com> wrote in message
> news:3DCA7814...@perpetuainteractive.com...

[Dan]

Bitmap images that need printing go straight to InDesign. Bitmap/graphic
combinations print out of InDesign, CorelDraw or a pdf. This way I only need
one original at one size, and all the resized and cropped "children" (which
are really only links to the original) can live elsewhere.

Dan
http://www.FreelanceWorkshops.com

"Carol Ott" <cs...@NOSPAMcsottdesign.com> wrote in message

news:_kFy9.515$tW4....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[Cecile Muller]

> Said I had to download software I'd never heard of. I didn't.
> Waited 30 seconds
> for site to download. None of the links work.

I looked at the page, that 'software you never heard of'
was probably Flash Player given it's the only thing
needed in addition of a browser...

[Dan]

And if they are sleeping with the boss, none of this matters.

Dan
http://www.FreelanceWorkshops.com

"B. Ehinger" <e_br...@hotmailtrailortrash.com> wrote in message
news:3DCB5EB9...@hotmailtrailortrash.com...

[B. Ehinger]

Exactly what I thought. But when you pay that much for one piece of
software, you had better be able to do damn near everything with it.
When will Adobe just combine Illustrator, indesign and Photoshop in one
single easy to afford piece of software.

[B. Ehinger]

Oooh... medical students. I'd hate to have a doctor opperate on me not
having read any of his textbooks because he spent all his savings on
tuition and living, and had moral issues with photocopying or borrowing
textbooks that he didn't pay for. eew... I just got shivers thinking
about my cousin JS who had his appendix taken out in India. then had to
be flown to france to have the infection cut out...

[B. Ehinger]

I think he was talking about proffesional printing, not just a snapshot.

[B. Ehinger]

I'm tired but still feel the need to put my 2 cents in on your first
point fungus... now, out of those 50, 100, 200 or so people that didn't
end up buying the software. how many would you guess either a) don't
actually use the software regularly or for profit. or b) woulld never
have considered the product in the first place if it had not been made
available to them for free.

[Dan]

>>>As an employer, I would have a really hard time hiring someone who
started their career by becoming a thief.<<<

"Thief" is not generally on the resume. How would you obtain that
information? How accurate would it be? You wouldn't be invading anyone's
privacy, would you?

Dan
http://www.FreelanceWorkshops.com

"Carol Ott" <cs...@NOSPAMcsottdesign.com> wrote in message

news:P3Hy9.708$tW4....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[B. Ehinger]

LauraK wrote:
>>http://go.to/headscan
>
>
> Purple page with narrow dark purple line on upper left corner. Nothing else.

Worke fine for me. Limited pallet, not cluttered. Quick, but I am on a
T3 line. I really like the interface of the scan gallery, very slick.

>
>
>>www.glasgowhousetheory.com
>
>
> Said I had to download software I'd never heard of. I didn't. Waited 30 seconds
> for site to download. None of the links work.

Worked fine for me, the only plug-n needed was flash6. If you've never
heard of that laura, perhaps you should download it. (you can get the
player for free off the macromedia website) I could lend you a sit file
with a full working version of the flash tool. You know, for trial
purposes, see if you like it before you buy it. Oh, wait. never mind.

James, the orang is bold, but it still works. I like the simple design.
Very ledgeble, even at 1600X1200 res.

>
>
>>www.deirdre-edwards.co.uk
>
> Commerical website. Not bad. Basic grey on blue grey. At least the links work.

Agreed, not, bad. Easy to navigate. The watercolours are nice. A friend
of yours? Would her budget have allowed for font purchases? Most of my
clients are struggling artists, and friends, so I try not to soak em for
my own benefit if you know what I mean.

>
>
>>www.jca-uk.com

All the links worked fine for me. nice and elegant, yet modern. Nice
colours too. (I even like the "under construction" splash page) Is that
your company?

>>
>
> A commercial website. Most of the links don't work. Link to the company that
> supposedly designed the site brings up an "under construction" page.
>
>
>
> lau...@madmousergraphics.com
> http://www.madmousergraphics.com
> web design, print design, photography
>
>

Laura, you should really look at your system if it's having problems
viewing pages, everything worked fine for me. I don't know what kind of
system or browser you're using, but you should upgrade. Sounds like you
should be able to afford it. You don't know what you're missing Laura...
you could learn from this guy. (So can I, my web skills suck).

I know you didn't ask for a critiqe, but hey... I've had insomnia for
the past 4 days. i got time on my side. So here goes...

Your page isn't bad (the colours vaugly remind me of neopolitan
icecream... mmmmm.) I would recomend carrying that floaty box thing
through to the portfolio pages, it's a nice device and it's lost as soon
as you go to either the web or print design page. The layout of those
pages could be a bit more consistant with the home page, and you should
try to set it up with thumbnails rather than an overview of everything
on one page (black and white design page especially) very cluttered and
hard to look at/scroll around. Oh yeah, why do you have a seperate
portfolio page link and photography link (that is repeated again in the
portfolio page)??? It's all as redundant as those question marks, you
already have links to the seperate elements of your portfolio right on
the home page. When I clicked on the portfolio link in the navigation
bar thigy I was dissapointed that there wasn't different stuff. Same
goes for the navigation bar at the bottom of the screen in the flash
samples page... re-dun-dant. one or the other. To many things to click
on makes browsing really confusing.

Oh yeah, ditch the photo gallery, or rework it. Snapshots are nice, but
that kind of photography is better suited for a personal "this is nice
stuff that I like" kind of gallary. If you want to show off you photo
skills I'd suggest offering samples of work you've done that
encorperates your photos. Or pick some more artistic and commercially
viable pics to display.

--
Cheers,

B

http://www.befreedesign.net
(it's not much, and most of my work is print, but what have you , I'm
only a year old)

Take out the trailor trash to reply.

BTW...

[LauraK]

It was some sort of Jupiter software that I had never heard of.

[James Greig]

witness the beast of a thread that i have created and be scared..... i
am.....

a lot of my original points have been lost way way back in the thread, too
bad. i'm not really worried that a detective at Adobe is sitting searching
newsgroups for people with pirate software - if you take a look through
Google Groups for 'crack' or 'serials' etc you will find millions of people
who are talking about pirate software - and there's also the millions of
pirate related sites out there that haven't been shut down yet. i'm pretty
sure that software companies accept this sort of behaviour as inevitable and
maybe even use it to their advantage.

i think we should end this thread now before it gets even more out of hand.

peace to all of you,

james.

[Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio]

Yes, I can.

WAKE UP PEACHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:-)

Pepe
Milano, Italy
PS: sorry, I couldn't resist...

"Peach" <peac...@pulsLLPP124enet.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3dcaf...@athena.netset.com...

> WOW,
>
> What a topic, the thread is at 120+ replies.........I might read thru it
one
> day, but until then:
>
> Can someone sum up the consensus?....LOL
>
> Lazy boy Peach
>
>
>
>
>

[Ben Woodward]

Alright, Jackass.

Seems like you're the one with the stick up your ass. I've never even
heard of you in this newsgroup before, and this is the second personal
attack I get from you in conversations and threads that have nothing to
do with you.

Anything I said really stick in your craw? Something hit a little too
close to home? Don't try to insult me just to make yourself feel better
about your own out-of-whack moral compass.

Ben

[Carol Ott]

No -- but all things rise to the surface at some point. Hell -- even people
in the supermarket line end up telling me their life stories eventually....

And when you're dishonest in one area of your life, it will generally spill
over into other areas, too.

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
REMOVE 'NOSPAM' TO REPLY.

"Dan" <D...@FreelanceWorkshops.com> wrote in message
news:xHJy9.1170$hK4.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

[Carol Ott]

Right. Which is why I clarified what I was talking about.

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
REMOVE 'NOSPAM' TO REPLY.

"B. Ehinger" <e_br...@hotmailtrailortrash.com> wrote in message
news:3DCB6A13...@hotmailtrailortrash.com...

[Carol Ott]

So gee...ONCE AGAIN, you're assuming that these people are dishonest? That
they're xeroxing textbooks instead of working their asses off to pay for
them? How shameful.

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
REMOVE 'NOSPAM' TO REPLY.

"B. Ehinger" <e_br...@hotmailtrailortrash.com> wrote in message
news:3DCB69A1...@hotmailtrailortrash.com...

[Huckleberry Hoshimoto]

"Tammy F" <t.fu...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:Pgyy9.4115$Dc4....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> Piracy is the vicious game that all of us play when we get sucked into the
> world of computers. Do you think that someone loses his job when
Photoshop
> 7 is pirated, or does it give a whole slew of software engineers a new
> project developing Photoshop 8 with a more difficult registration process.
> That will be cracked, too. Photoshop 9, 10, 11... That is life. I
> remember buying my first VCR for $600, now you can buy one for $50. Soon
> VCR's will be obsolete, then it turns to DVD's. What will it be next?
It's
> never ending. Same with computers. That's why some accessories aren't
> compliant with, let's say, Window 98. I got a beautiful scanner from my
> boyfriend because XP didn't support the scanner he had, so he had to go
buy
> a new one. It's a vicious cycle. If it morally bothers you to use
> shareware, don't. For most of the real world, that struggles paycheck to
> paycheck, you use what you can get from wherever you can get it. I don't
> cheat on my taxes, I'm a good mother to my children, and I don't lie. If
> someone asked me if I use shareware, I would tell them the truth.
Morally,
> in my mind, I am a good person doing what I have to do to survive.
> Children, stop bickering and passing judgement, that's not your place!
> Peace Out
> Tammy
------------------------------------------------
Whoopty-freaking-doo ! How wonderful of you.
(Whatever helps you sleep at night!)

[James Greig]

Thanks for the honest feedback on my sites, much appreciated.

The Glagowhousetheory website does not need 'Jupiter' to run, only Flash, so
I'm very puzzled by that one. In fact I've never even heard of 'Jupiter'!

In case you wondered, the penguin logo is actually a vintage Penguin books
logo from the 1950s that has been scanned in and modified. Who said books
weren't cool!!!??

I've got a huge collection of those orange paperbacks that they used to
make - amazingingly beautiful design that was way ahead of its time - I
think that Penguin have got Mr.Jan Tschichold to thank for that! Anyone into
these book covers? My style is pretty much minimalistic but with bold use of
colour which is why they've been a huge influence on my work...

Yeah, Shoestringdesign is my fledgling design firm. Remember this is all
done in my evenings and weekends because I'm studying the rest of the time.
Which is why I've got an under construction page up at the moment. I just
wish I had time to go canvassing for clients....

[Edward Wedig]

In article <gQEy9.827$hK4....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
D...@FreelanceWorkshops.com says...

> >>>When you can't print anything from the tryout version, it kind of leaves
> you hanging...<<<
>
> I've used Photoshop since version 3. Have yet to print anything out of it.
> That's not what it's for.
>

Actually, one of the nice things about PhotoShop 5.5 (I think, might
have been 5), was the "print options" menu, where you could specify "fit
to page", add crop marks, etc, with out having to go into another
program.

Also, what about images with a lot of layers? Does InDesign import
those, or do you have to flatten the layers first?

-Ed

--
****************************
Edward Wedig
Graphic Designer - Web Designer - Gamemaster - Nice Guy
www.edtheartist.com and www.docbrown.net
****************************

[Carol Ott]

Well I did a search for "Jupiter software" and got a bunch of wierd
stuff....some non-English sites that I couldn't read....and something about
CD/radio software. Sheesh -- what is this stuff?

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
REMOVE 'NOSPAM' TO REPLY.

"James Greig" <idontl...@myplace.ok> wrote in message
news:3dcb...@212.67.96.135...

[LauraK]

>Well I did a search for "Jupiter software" and got a bunch of wierd
>stuff....some non-English sites that I couldn't read....and something about
>CD/radio software. Sheesh -- what is this stuff?
>

Don't know, but I sure wasn't going to find out!

[Dan]

Edward Wedig wrote:

>>>Also, what about images with a lot of layers? Does InDesign import those,
or do you have to flatten the layers first?<<<

That is one of the slickest things about InDesign, Edward. You can link
directly to a fully-layered PSD, and you can crop, resize, turn on clipping
paths...you name it. If you make adjustments in the PSD file, just click
"update" in InDesign -- taa-daaa!

You can print to your in-house printer for proofs, then make an uneditable
PDF file for your commercial printer.

Dan
http://www.FreelanceWorkshops.com

"Edward Wedig" <doc_b...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aqgjo6$9u6qq$1...@ID-142317.news.dfncis.de...

[B. Ehinger]

I'm just making a point. Not about a race of people. What I'm saying is
that I could care less if a doctor got through school buying textbooks
or by photocopying them... so long as the doctor knows the stuff. if I
was an employer and I had 2 talented job applicants, I could care less
weather they learned thier skills on copied software or bought software.
It's not even a question that needs to come up.

And really, nobody is stealing anything, unless they are hacking right
into Adobe or Macromedia company network. It's all jus COPIES people.

[Amy]

On 11/8/02 1:31 PM, in article
WpTy9.1634$hK4.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net, "Dan"
<D...@FreelanceWorkshops.com> wrote:

> That is one of the slickest things about InDesign, Edward. You can link
> directly to a fully-layered PSD, and you can crop, resize, turn on clipping
> paths...you name it. If you make adjustments in the PSD file, just click
> "update" in InDesign -- taa-daaa!

That is very cool, but... I am of the opinion that the *very* slickest thing
about InDesign is that it's not Quark.

Hee hee.

Amy

[Fungusamungus]

Do you realize how utterly ridiculous that analogy is?

Doctors are *REQUIRED BY LAW* to learn this stuff, they never become
"doctors" unless they've completed the courses and passed (which include
textbooks). Whereas many of the people stealing software don't *need it*.
It's only after they've stolen it and learned to use it do they say "hey, I
can make money with this!" and then do so.

IOW, wannabe doctors don't decide whether or not they *need or even want*
the textbooks. It's a pre-requisite if they want to be doctors.
However software thieves have made the decision whether that they *want* the
software (if they actually needed it, there are better and more legit ways
to go about obtaining it, but many thieves are too lazy to seek out those
means and go for the easy score) and then steal it.

"B. Ehinger" <e_br...@hotmailtrailortrash.com> wrote in message
news:3DCB69A1...@hotmailtrailortrash.com...

[Fungusamungus]

Obviously they *did* consider it before they downloaded it, and a] Just on
the alt.graphics.photoshop newsgroup (and even here occassionally) we get
"proud pirates" who tell us all about how they are using stolen software in
their *business*. A lot more of these people come forward than the ones who
say "I used stolen software, but bought it later on". So just going by these
two or three newsgroups alone (which is just a fraction of the actual user
base as a whole), I'd say easily 10% of those 50, 100, 200 people use stolen
software *for profit*.

"B. Ehinger" <e_br...@hotmailtrailortrash.com> wrote in message

news:3DCB6B92...@hotmailtrailortrash.com...

[Carol Ott]

I actually asked two friends of mine who went to medical school and just
graduated/finished residency a year ago, about the textbook issue. One
comes from a wealthy family, and the other comes from a middle-of the road
middle-class family. Neither said they'd ever experienced their classmates
copying textbooks -- in fact one guy laughed when I suggested it....he said
"Jesus, Carol -- have you *seen* some of the textbooks we carried around?
Who the hell has the time to stand in the library and copy books that size?"
He also went on to say that when you apply to medical school, unless you
weren't serious about it in the first place, you're well aware of the
expenses you're about to incur, and you've prepared somehow to cover them.

Carol
www.csottdesign.com
www.csott.com
REMOVE 'NOSPAM' TO REPLY.

"Fungusamungus" <fungu...@warmmail.com> wrote in message
news:IuXy9.80898$dn3.3...@twister.southeast.rr.com...

[Harfmil]

I'm just trying to play devil's advocate to this whole thing. I just think
everyone's views should be weighed carefully before they are blasted for
them, no matter how off the wall they might be.

"Fungusamungus" <fungu...@warmmail.com> wrote in message

news:AFGy9.80765$dn3.3104167@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> it's called laziness. And I mean it in general, not personally to you,
> Harfmil.
>
> There are ALWAYS options. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS!
> If your baby is starving, do you seriously believe that there is *NO*
other
> option to get that baby fed than to steal the food?
>
> If so, then please allow me to add a side dish of ignorance to that
> laziness.
>
>
> "Harfmil" <kingp...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:TcDy9.277$tW4....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> | First of all, I never stated which side of the fence I sit on
> concerning
> | this subject, as there are many objectives to consider, because not
> | everything is so plainly right or wrong. It is childish to wish ill
will
> on
> | anyone for simply stating their opinion, regardless of the fact of
whether
> | you agree with it or not. Just because you come from a certain set of
> | values and morals does not mean that everyone else (especially those
> outside
> | the US) has the same. Which in turn, does not necessarily mean that you
> are
> | automatically right. When faced with the cliché scenario, if you had a
> baby
> | and it was starving, would you steal food to feed it? I realize that a
> life
> | is much more important then designing or software, but under the
opinions
> | you've stated you would not do this cause it would be wrong. But you
have
> | to admit that it does at least the make the situation a little more
gray.
> | Second, I would love to see the face of your customer when you tell
> them
> | that their bill has just increased $200 because you don't have a font
that
> | they have chosen.
> |
> | --
> | Harfmil
> |
> |
> | "LauraK" <lk...@aol.com11o1al1> wrote in message
> | news:20021107041809...@mb-fh.aol.com...
> | > >You seem to take an angry, childish stance about the whole subject
> | > >rather then having a decent conversation. Although I'm somewhere on
> the
> | > >fence about the whole subject, wishing ill will to others certainly
> | doesn't
> | > >help your argument.
> | > >
> | >
> | > You advocate stealing to get anything you want and I'm being childish?
> | >
> | > >Do you own every font installed on your system?
> | > >Have you ever used a font for a project that a customer has provided
> for
> | > >you. In the strictest of terms, installing a font you have not
> purchased
> | is
> | > >theft and is stealing someone else's work.
> | >
> | > Of course I own the fonts I use. If I don't have it I write the cost
of
> | getting
> | > it into the project.
> | > This is going to come as a huge shock to you, but there are actually
> | people in
> | > the world who don't casually steal just because they want something.

[Harfmil]

Well since I'm clueless, explain to me why... blanket insults (ie; calling
me clueless) don't do much for you point of view.

"LauraK" <lk...@aol.com11o1al1> wrote in message

news:20021107193523...@mb-ca.aol.com...

> > When faced with the cliché scenario, if you had a baby
> >and it was starving, would you steal food to feed it?
>

> We're talking about people stealing software they don't have to have
simply
> because they're too lazy to work and earn money to buy it.

>
> > Second, I would love to see the face of your customer when you tell them
> >that their bill has just increased $200 because you don't have a font
that
> >they have chosen.
>

> You really are clueless.

[Fungusamungus]

"Harfmil" <kingp...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:Pw7z9.2778$Aq5.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

| I'm just trying to play devil's advocate to this whole thing. I just
think
| everyone's views should be weighed carefully before they are blasted for
| them, no matter how off the wall they might be.
|

Mind if I ask:

What are you hoping to achieve by playing devil's advocate?

I understand your view on weighing views, but when something is decidedly
illegal, and just morally wrong, it's pretty clear cut is it not?
There's always a choice. People don't *have* to do the wrong thing. They
*choose* to do the wrong thing. It can be avoided...

[Dan]

>>>it's pretty clear cut is it not?<<<

Obviously not, Fungus. 150+ post thread. Things are not clear at all. As far
as *laws* are concerned, people make them and people can unmake them.
Happens all the time.

Dan
http://www.FreelanceWorkshops.com

"Fungusamungus" <fungu...@warmmail.com> wrote in message

news:hHcz9.89197$dn3.3...@twister.southeast.rr.com...

[Mike]

in article hHcz9.89197$dn3.3...@twister.southeast.rr.com, Fungusamungus
at fungu...@warmmail.com wrote on 11/9/02 10:43 AM:

>
> when something is decidedly
> illegal...

Laws change.

":^) ®

Do you base what you think is "illegal" on what the laws say, or do you
think for yourself?

":^) ®

> and just morally wrong...

Morality changes also. Do you just go along with what the majority thinks
is "moral"?

":^) ®

":^) ®

--
Mike

€ Logo Design €
Put some fun in your next logo!

Site at: http://www.artistmike.com

[Ar]

Mike <mi...@artistmike.com> wrote:

Nice troll Christy. Reminds me of how you tried to copyright a
smiley.
And that ocassion recently where you plagarized someone's font and
claimed it as your own.

Obviously you would not be interested in majority opinion as your
values and ideas are so warped and plain silly.

Still your post below is just conventional trolling, so you may be
moving more into the mainstream.

[Mike]

in article pjhrsucqr4eqpmhhq...@4ax.com, Ar at
noSpamasEm...@hotmail.com wrote on 11/9/02 6:39 PM:

> Nice troll Christy.

Troll or not is for you to decide, not up to me.

":^) ®

> And that ocassion recently where you plagarized someone's font and
> claimed it as your own.

Nice to see someone like you attempt to bring that up again. I appoligized
for the error in public, that is how you know about it by the way, and now
people like you attempt to bring it up again.

How amusing.

The reason I decided it was an error was because I realized that it did not
fit into my view of my morality and my ethics, and I corrected the error.

Everyone makes errors, I corrected mine in public.

I wonder if you would do the same.

":^) ®

> Obviously you would not be interested in majority opinion as your
> values and ideas are so warped and plain silly.

If the "majority opinion" happens to be the same as mine then there is no
values clash.

":^) ®

> Still your post below is just conventional trolling...

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

[Ar]

Mike <mi...@artistmike.com> wrote:

>How amusing.
>
>The reason I decided it was an error was because I realized that it did not
>fit into my view of my morality and my ethics, and I corrected the error.

Yes very amusing.