Color Scheme Application
Brandon L. Cox
Why does anyone need these applications? What ever happened to knowing a
color wheel? What ever happened to innovation through experimentation? What
ever happened to being a designer? What is a designer if you use an
application to tell you what works and what doesn't?
Sincerely,
Brandon L. Cox - Creative Director
io...@offdigital.com
ODM - OFF DIGITAL MEDIA
Phone: 614/421-1417
Fax: 614/421-2051
http://www.offdigital.com
sistercarol
books. I wouldn't want to use a colour scheme program -- somehow
it wouldn't be as fun.
But to answer your question, Brandon, I think it's a matter of
laziness...or a lack of a proper design education......or both.
--Carol
Brandon L. Cox <io...@offdigital.com> wrote in message
news:TDla5.943$s3....@typhoon.columbus.rr.com...
Brandon L. Cox
Sincerely,
Brandon L. Cox - Creative Director
io...@offdigital.com
ODM - OFF DIGITAL MEDIA
Phone: 614/421-1417
Fax: 614/421-2051
http://www.offdigital.com
----------
In article <zRla5.3963$%P.32...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Caligula
mostly work on websites, I do occassionally use photoshop or the
appearance manager to tell me what the hex # number is for a
color I want to use.
Sarah
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
platus
I think most of us tend to paint unrealistic images of people here using
nothing for reference-other than an ability to ask a question which is
pertinent to design.
That's why they aren't stupid questions, if you consider the source.
I personally don't think there is anything wrong with qualifying someone
with a simple 'are you a designer?'
It helps to tailor a better answer. It shouldn't offend anyone-but it
does for some odd reason. Many thin skins around I guess. And then we
risk getting into nonsense threads about what is design and what makes a
designer. And instead of focused conclusions we bastardize it to mean
everything, and nothing. Baloney.
And nobody wants to offend, so these queries are seemingly taboo.
Just my view.
"Brandon L. Cox" wrote:
>
> What the HELL?????!!!!!!
> Why does anyone need these applications? What ever happened to knowing a
> color wheel? What ever happened to innovation through experimentation? What
> ever happened to being a designer? What is a designer if you use an
> application to tell you what works and what doesn't?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Brandon L. Cox - Creative Director
> io...@offdigital.com
> ODM - OFF DIGITAL MEDIA
> Phone: 614/421-1417
> Fax: 614/421-2051
> http://www.offdigital.com
--
Panta Design Studio
http://www.the-spa.com/diablo/p3c.htm
Angela M. Cable
>
> I wondered the same thing. I love my colour wheel and my Pantone
> books. I wouldn't want to use a colour scheme program -- somehow
> it wouldn't be as fun.
Dunno about the Mac program that was mentioned, the PC one I suggested
in the original thread is interesting, the GUI is really ugly though.
What I was looking for when I found it was something (preferably free)
that would give me quick conversions from RGB to CMYK. I use Corel's
PhotoPaint for that now. Anyway, I did try it out, I have a weakness
for downloading small applications that only do very limited things,
I've probably tried out hundreds of little programs. It's one of those
little apps that's just fun to mess around with. I was pretty surprised
at how well it did produce standard harmonies. Inputting a color and
being able to see all of the varieties of palettes it created all at one
time was kind of cool, it gives you a tabbed interface where you can
click on whatever type of harmony interests you. You can set it up to
show them in different ways, you can pick a color out of an palette you
just generated and generate a new one. It did come up with some
palettes that I probably wouldn't have thought of left to my own
devices. I didn't find it useful enough to register after the demo ran
out, but it was fun to play around with.
>
> But to answer your question, Brandon, I think it's a matter of
> laziness...or a lack of a proper design education......or both.
Oh, I dunno, I think it's not much different than flipping through a
magazine or finding inspiration in your flower garden. Programs like
that are a tool, just like a color wheel or a Pantone book is, or
PhotoShop for that matter. If the person in question was doing strictly
web work, a program would probably be much more efficient than
attempting to figure out an RGB value from a color wheel, not everybody
here works in print only.
--
Angela M. Cable
5th Street Studio, free graphics, websets and more:
http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/alaia/354
PSP Tutorial Links:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9871/PSPlinks.html
BladePro Visual Archive:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~angeal
debor...@my-deja.com
this one question. I also had the same inquiry a few days ago for an
application like this, and thank you Angela for the response, but I saw
some of these same remarks from people like Brandon etc. Also thank you
Platus for having the foresight and response that perhaps the people
asking are not "designers". I am not a "designer", don't pretend to be,
and didn't realize you had to be, to be here asking a question. I look
on this site for lots of information on subjects I know nothing about,
I've posted questions in the automotive discussions too, but I'm not a
mechanic either. This is one of the most pompous forums I've been on, I
hope it's not indicative of the rest of the people in this industry.
Maybe this forum should be called alt.for designers only.no ignorant
questions. PS I like the application, found it very useful
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Brandon L. Cox
guess it IS wrong of me to assume that most of the people in here are
designers, being alt.design.graphics and all. I was just getting sick of
seeing this question... my bad.
Sincerely,
Brandon L. Cox - Creative Director
io...@offdigital.com
ODM - OFF DIGITAL MEDIA
Phone: 614/421-1417
Fax: 614/421-2051
http://www.offdigital.com
----------
Drew
Drew
platus
beyond me. But it doesn't make any sense to answer questions with
information that may be under or over someones' level. And it doesn't do
any good to get bothered by ignorance if you understand where it's
coming from.
It's good to know who you're dealing with.
Okay, automotive garage: you ask your mechanic what the engine problem
was. He asks you if you're familiar with engines, so he can gauge how
in-depth he needs to be in his explanation. Would you be offended?
So get off the 'pompous' routine-
All I advised Brandon was to consider the source.
sistercarol
don't take it out on us. As Brandon said, this newsgroup is about
graphic design. And sometimes the hand-holding gets a little old.
--Carol
Brandon L. Cox <io...@offdigital.com> wrote in message
news:Vhpb5.2808$s3.2...@typhoon.columbus.rr.com...
> sniffle. sniffle. didn't mean to offend you. just voicing my
opinion. I
> guess it IS wrong of me to assume that most of the people in
here are
> designers, being alt.design.graphics and all. I was just getting
sick of
> seeing this question... my bad.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Brandon L. Cox - Creative Director
> io...@offdigital.com
> ODM - OFF DIGITAL MEDIA
> Phone: 614/421-1417
> Fax: 614/421-2051
> http://www.offdigital.com
>
> ----------
> In article <8kl5qg$ue5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Snazzy
<nobodyi...@pattersonpalmer.com> wrote:
>Well said.
I'm with you. Just tried that app and I think I kinda like it.
You have the freedom to make some perfectly awful color combinations,
which you will for sure if you are lacking in clue.
My (expensive; replace annually! yeah right) pantone chips, swatch
books, 2 color blenders, color wheels and so on do have a serious
problem when designing for web: they are printed. Can't flip to a
6500ºK white point now, can I? Don't get me started on cross platform
monitor gamma--let's see some swatches for that!
I'd like to see them go further with that app and let me save palettes
I can import into pshop and dreamweaver. Also add websafe colors
(another pain which I haven't seen anybody address in print).
Bring on computer tools by the truck load. I'll take 'em.
But should we get an electromagnetic pulse from Pakistan or something
(they just had a birthday party, literally, for the second
anniversary of the bomb there, another story...) I can go back to
using wax.
$.02
--Patrick
Snazzy Graphics
Snazzy
I was just thinking about a gadget I've been wanting to get for a
while: the colortron.
That's the deal where you can accurately measure colors on your
print/monitor (color spectrometer?). I don't really need it, I trust
my eyeballs and other calibrations. If I really need that accuracy,
that's what service bureaus are for.
But, dig this: you can sample colors from the real world--capture
them--and bring 'em into your machine. Someone mentioned looking in
your garden for inspiration. Sample your garden!
Just like those audio heads with the dats and earphones slurpin' up
noises.
Way cool.
Nothing wrong with getting seriously high tech about color. Give me
toys.
(I think they're getting cheap now too).
Patrick Desmond
Snazzy Graphics
(no spam!)
MOJOrisin
colour schemes?
I don't have a colour wheel, only a computer.
<debor...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8kl5qg$ue5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Brandon L. Cox
You don't even need a color wheel or Pantone books to pick a good color
scheme, all you need to do is have a good since of design and color and an
imagination.
When you go to produce the files you may want to use those things to specify
an exact color, but those color scheme applications give you secondary and
tertiary colors and *MAN!* if that doesn't sound like the people that use
these applications to help them all the way down to the color selection
should maybe learn these "difficult skills" or consider the possibility that
they may need to switch occupations. That may sound harsh, but where do you
draw the line between a tool and a crutch? I like to think that design can
be done with a stick, some sand, and a brain. At least for me, I *SEE* the
design before I get in front of the computer and start developing it. I play
with colors. How can a computer algorithm create a scheme that not only
works, but is current and fresh and maybe even emotion-provoking and
relevant??? Every screen shot I see of these stupid applications either
produces the same results EVERY TIME or the colors are so ugly that it makes
our ("our" includes me and anyone else who agrees) struggle as professional
designers that much harder. I don't know about you, but every time I see
crappy design I get a little sick. Yeah, we are all in the same industry but
if you "settle" or accept that you are only as good as you are then I think
you are doing more harm than good to our industry. Just common sense.
Sincerely,
Brandon L. Cox - Creative Director
io...@offdigital.com
ODM - OFF DIGITAL MEDIA
Phone: 614/421-1417
Fax: 614/421-2051
http://www.offdigital.com
----------
In article <396ea5fd...@news.bestweb.net>, sna...@bestweb.net (Snazzy)
wrote:
debor...@my-deja.com
question though, "would I be offended if my mechanic asked how in depth
he needs to explain something?". Too be honest, I don't know if that is
a very good analogy. I don't think of this as a simple, qualifing
question...."What the HELL?????!!!!!!Why does anyone need these
applications? What ever happened to knowing a color wheel? What ever
being a designer?"
I don't think anyone was asking for "hand holding", just plan old
simple courtesy, which "for some odd reason" some people seem to
abandon as soon as they sit down at a computer & enter a forum,
unfortunately. The answer to the original question was simple enough
for me to handle (as a non-designer),....name of the app, and where to
get it.
In article <396F799F...@the-spa.com>,
platus <pla...@the-spa.com> wrote:
> Don't be offended Deborah. Like I said, why people get offended is
> beyond me. But it doesn't make any sense to answer questions with
> information that may be under or over someones' level. And it doesn't
do
> any good to get bothered by ignorance if you understand where it's
> coming from.
> It's good to know who you're dealing with.
>
> Okay, automotive garage: you ask your mechanic what the engine problem
> was. He asks you if you're familiar with engines, so he can gauge how
> in-depth he needs to be in his explanation. Would you be offended?
>
> So get off the 'pompous' routine-
>
> All I advised Brandon was to consider the source.
>
> debor...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > >
> > > > Brandon L. Cox - Creative Director
> > > > io...@offdigital.com
> > > > ODM - OFF DIGITAL MEDIA
> > > > Phone: 614/421-1417
> > > > Fax: 614/421-2051
> > > > http://www.offdigital.com
> > >
Dan
>>>I don't know about you, but every time I see crappy design I get a little
sick.<<<
Sounds like you'll be dead before the month is out. Learn to live on the
planet, Brandon.
Dan
--
To reply, remove ooo from address
--------------------------------------------
Brandon L. Cox wrote in message ...
Brandon L. Cox
*places finger over lips in attempt to keep down lunch*
Nice site, Dan...
Sincerely,
Brandon L. Cox - Creative Director
io...@offdigital.com
ODM - OFF DIGITAL MEDIA
Phone: 614/421-1417
Fax: 614/421-2051
http://www.offdigital.com
----------
In article <fNHb5.4543$tI4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "Dan"
Snazzy
<io...@offdigital.com> wrote:
>I think he agrees with the counter, though I can't speak for Drew.
No, I don't agree with the counter. My whole point is options.
Anything that helps me think of novel ideas I'm for. Anything that
speeds up my production time I'm for.
The color schemes app lets you experiment with colors. It doesn't tell
you what to use. It's useful. It's not like a template that foists
someone else's unimaginative design on you. That seems to be the
concept you are against, cookie cutter design, and there I'd agree
with you.
>where do you
>draw the line between a tool and a crutch?
I'm also a photographer. (Almost) everything I do in photoshop can be
done in the darkroom; that's photoshop's paradigm and roots. I love
doing darkroom work. Your results there in many ways seem (and may be)
more genuine. But in the time it takes to make one perfect print in
the darkroom, I can probably produce 50 in photoshop. My knowledge of
photography gives me a huge edge in electronic imaging, but it doesn't
give me the urge to delete photoshop and say that's just for
neophytes. So the answer is efficiency.
>How can a computer algorithm create a scheme that not only
>works, but is current and fresh and maybe even emotion-provoking and
>relevant???
It doesn't. Garbage in, garbage out. You need a skilled operator to
pick a good scheme with this. Just like using Kais. I can manually
make any pattern or effect any plugin produces. I could also airbrush
all my obligatory drop shadows. But the plugins do it faster, and
sometimes the randomize button, or a preset gives you a great new idea
or a new starting point. Can't count the number of times I've hit the
wrong button (or poured the wrong chemical, shot the wrong film) and
have come up with something really cool. Something really cool that I
charge big bucks for, thereby making that process a professional one.
The creative process is definitely not all planned.
Maybe you don't work like me. Maybe you don't allow these "happy
accidents" in your work and are only satisfied when what you visualize
before you set down to churn is exactly what you get. I could see
somebody being like that, I guess. But that has got to be really
frustrating, 'cause in the real world nothing comes out like exactly
like you planned. Not exactly. There's always compromises between what
you want and what the deadline allows or the equipment outputs or the
commercial printer gets right or what the client accepts or the ...
you get the idea.
> I don't know about you, but every time I see
>crappy design I get a little sick.
Not me. Makes me happy, brings me joy. Means I can charge more for my
skills.
Patrick Desmond
Snazzy Graphics
sna...@bestweb.net
(send no spam)
Brandon L. Cox
Sincerely,
Brandon L. Cox - Creative Director
io...@offdigital.com
ODM - OFF DIGITAL MEDIA
Phone: 614/421-1417
Fax: 614/421-2051
http://www.offdigital.com
----------
In article <396f4d07...@news.bestweb.net>, sna...@bestweb.net (Snazzy)
wrote:
Brandon L. Cox
>>skills.
I guess the glass IS half full ;^)
Dimitri
I will say that sometimes the rants are underscored with pedantry.
I guess the point is this: that someone who grasps the concepts behind
design will be inclined to work more effectively and efficiently,
develop a greater range of alternative solutions, and more likely
succeed in atypical situations.
> > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > >
> > > > > Brandon L. Cox - Creative Director
> > > > > io...@offdigital.com
> > > > > ODM - OFF DIGITAL MEDIA
> > > > > Phone: 614/421-1417
> > > > > Fax: 614/421-2051
> > > > > http://www.offdigital.com
> > > >
MOJOrisin
you to play with the colour wheel and see resulting colour schemes based on
various preset models, I.E triad, opposing colours etc.
Unfortunately it only allows limited exploration. Does anyone else know of
a similar but extended application.
MOJOrisin
interactivity and exploration in real-time - I think not, perhaps you should
return to the dark ages?
Dimitri <pla...@the-spa.com> wrote in message
news:39718CCA...@the-spa.com...
> --
>
> A book?
> :)
sistercarol
instead of making rude remarks, perhaps you should grow up. Not
everyone is into "interactivity". Those of us who have been doing
this for many years use these tools for a reason -- because they
work.
--Carol
MOJOrisin <NOSPAMmat_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:CDZb5.307$Pj1....@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Angela M. Cable
color, the ones that I can personally recommend:
A Book of Colors, by Shigenobu Kobayashi
Color Harmony, a Guide to Creative Color Combinations, by Hideaki
Chijiiwa
Designer's Guide to Color 5, by Ikuyoshi Shibukawa and Yumi Takahashi
(there are more in this series, #5 is the best one, IMHO)
The Designer's Guide to Color Combinations, by Leslie Cabarga
I believe all of them are available through Amazon. If none of these
suit you, try doing a search at Amazon on "color", "color theory",
"color" + "design", something like that. I'm also addicted to books,
instead of a spare bedroom, I have a "library", don't think I've ever
gotten rid of a book :-)
MOJOrisin wrote:
>
> A book, does that provide instant feedback, efficient use of time,
> interactivity and exploration in real-time - I think not, perhaps you should
> return to the dark ages?
>
--
LKRZ
>a similar but extended application.
>
>
>
There's some web color stuff here
http://www.visibone.com/
Dimitri
MOJOrisin wrote:
>
> What you're after is a copy of Corel Draw 9. It has a feature which allows
> you to play with the colour wheel and see resulting colour schemes based on
> various preset models, I.E triad, opposing colours etc.
>
> a similar but extended application.
--
A book?
:)
Dimitri
I'm sure the interactive color scheme generator will work well for your
needs.
Take care Mojo.
MOJOrisin wrote:
>
> A book, does that provide instant feedback, efficient use of time,
> interactivity and exploration in real-time - I think not, perhaps you should
> return to the dark ages?
>
> Dimitri <pla...@the-spa.com> wrote in message
> news:39718CCA...@the-spa.com...
> >
--
MOJOrisin
sistercarol <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:zJZb5.7971$tI4.6...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Actually, a real colour wheel does provide instant feedback. And
> instead of making rude remarks, perhaps you should grow up. Not
> everyone is into "interactivity". Those of us who have been doing
> this for many years use these tools for a reason -- because they
> work.
>
> --Carol
>
> MOJOrisin <NOSPAMmat_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:CDZb5.307$Pj1....@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
cast...@nospam.com
explain what's needed, I may be able to code something without a lot
of trouble and post it on the web.
I've always been good with color, but without a formal art background,
I don't know exactly what constitutes a color scheme?
In an average color scheme.....
How many colors?
Minimum number of colors?
Maximum colors?
Anything else the group can tell me would be helpful.
What kind of interactivity would be most usefull?
What kind of output would be most usefull (RGB & HSV values, or a
gradient pallet image) ?
On Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:54:48 -0400, Dimitri <pla...@the-spa.com>
wrote:
>
>
>I'm sure the interactive color scheme generator will work well for your
>needs.
>
>
>Take care Mojo.
>
>
>
>
>MOJOrisin wrote:
>>
>> A book, does that provide instant feedback, efficient use of time,
>> interactivity and exploration in real-time - I think not, perhaps you should
>> return to the dark ages?
>>
>> Dimitri <pla...@the-spa.com> wrote in message
>> news:39718CCA...@the-spa.com...
>> >
>> > MOJOrisin wrote:
>> > >
>> > > What you're after is a copy of Corel Draw 9. It has a feature which
>> allows
>> > > you to play with the colour wheel and see resulting colour schemes based
>> on
>> > > various preset models, I.E triad, opposing colours etc.
>> > >
>> > > Unfortunately it only allows limited exploration. Does anyone else know
>> of
>> > > a similar but extended application.
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > A book?
>> > :)
>
Angela M. Cable
this in Javascript. A little something that you could either upload to
your webspace or just run off your hard drive. I think what the
original poster was after is something that generates standard color
harmonies. Off the top of my head:
Monochromatic--shades and tints of the same hue.
Achromatic--amounts to "greyscale".
Complementary--hues that are opposite one another on the color wheel
(blue/orange, red/green, yellow/violet).
Triad--three colors evenly space about the wheel (like the
primaries...red/blue/yellow, or the secondaries...orange/green/violet)
Quad-somethingerother--can't remember the specific term, but four
colors evenly spaced about the wheel
(violet/yellow/red-orange/blue-green).
Split Complementary--Like complimentary, but rather than the direct
opposite of a color, the two to either side of it,
(red/yellow-green/green-blue) Ever try to do this on a standard Windows
color picker?
Analgous--colors directly next to each other on the wheel
(orange-yellow/orange/red-orange).
I'm pretty sure I got all the standard harmonies there, been about
fifteen years since I worked in watercolor and used an
honest-to-goodness color wheel :-) You can also create harmony by using
colors of similar value in one respect or another, pastel colors for
example, one pastel pretty much goes with any other pastel, regardless
of hue so long as the amount of tint is the same. There's a pretty good
technical discussion of color here:
http://vclass.mtsac.edu/fp/books/runfp98/00000/00060.htm
As far as number of colors generated, that would normally be determined
by the type of harmony you're creating...complementary is only two
colors, triad three, etc. I should think that there wouldn't be any
reason for a harmony of any sort to include more than four colors.
Either RBG or Hex output would be useful for web design, CMYK for
print. You may run into problems there though, it's next to impossible
to get perfect color matches between RBG and CMYK.
What would be cool, would be an app that would allow you to input a
specific value in either RBG or Hex, do the calculations, show you
swatches (like, here's the complement, here are the analogous colors,
etc.) and then allow you to save as a standard PhotoShop palette file.
Although I suppose it wouldn't be too difficult to create your own
palette file once the values were provided. Something you could toy
around with when you're really wanting to kill some time, save
interesting combinations as they come up. Some on-line examples that
almost fit the bill:
http://www.nebulus.org/freebies/coders/palette/index.shtml
Javascript app that creates color palettes (in the form of a web page)
based on the input color, you get swatches going two directions, across
by hue and down by saturation.
http://sung3.ifsi.rm.cnr.it/~dargaud/Hack/GenPalette.html
The is a freeware app, it does something more like gradients and allows
you to save to JASC's palette file format.
http://www.canyouimagine.com/prod_cs.htm
The one mentioned in the original thread, shareware, clunky GUI.
If you come up with anything interesting, I'd love to see it...one can
never be too rich, too thin, or have too many little apps to play with
:-)
cast...@nospam.com wrote:
>
> I've never seen Corel's color wheel tool, but if this group could
> explain what's needed, I may be able to code something without a lot
> of trouble and post it on the web.
>
> I've always been good with color, but without a formal art background,
> I don't know exactly what constitutes a color scheme?
>
> In an average color scheme.....
>
> How many colors?
> Minimum number of colors?
> Maximum colors?
>
> Anything else the group can tell me would be helpful.
>
> What kind of interactivity would be most usefull?
> What kind of output would be most usefull (RGB & HSV values, or a
> gradient pallet image) ?
>
Poptart7O4
>interactivity and exploration in real-time - I think not, perhaps you should
>return to the dark ages?
Whoa...wait a second...are you saying that books are merely leftovers from the
dark ages?
Michelle
glorywest
http://www.conceptualimagery.com/color/picker.html
http://www.visibone.com/colorlab/
http://www.hidaho.com/colorcenter/cc.html
I've butted into this thread rather late as I've
been skimming, but perhaps some of these links
with color mixers and web safe palettes etc. may
be what you are looking for.
Dimitri
cast...@nospam.com wrote:
>
> I've never seen Corel's color wheel tool, but if this group could
> explain what's needed, I may be able to code something without a lot
> of trouble and post it on the web.
>
> I've always been good with color, but without a formal art background,
> I don't know exactly what constitutes a color scheme?
>
> In an average color scheme.....
>
> How many colors?
No set number.
> Minimum number of colors?
two.
> Maximum colors?
It depends.
>
> Anything else the group can tell me would be helpful.
It would take too much space to describe how and why colors are chosen.
If you pick up a color theory book it would be helpful.
There are many ways to choose colors-but unity and contrast are design
prerequisites.
These factors are used to create a tensioned balance through the
interplay of hue, saturation, and value.
That's why a typical color scheme-a-bob is very limited, because it just
spits out color combos without regard to design intent.
Choosing colors is the easy part. Choosing colors that augment the
message is a bit more difficult. And no software is that intuitive-yet.
I think it would interesting however if you could devise a 'real'
interactive color scheme generator that would take subjective input from
the user and using fuzzy logic generate sample schemes.
Dimitri
cast...@nospam.com
I've looked around a bit, but am having no luck.
cast...@nospam.com
Posted too early, sorry