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HOW DO ATHEISTS EXPLAIN THE CASE OF ANNELIESE MICHEL?
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Emmett Till
Dec 9, 2011, 8:50:37 PM12/9/11
to
Anneliese Michel was born on 21 September 1952, in Leiblfing, Bavaria,
Germany to a strict Catholic family. When she was sixteen, she
suffered a severe convulsion and was diagnosed with epilepsy. Soon,
she began hallucinating while praying. In 1973, she suffered from
depression and began to hear voices telling her that she was “damned”
and would “rot in hell”.
It has been speculated that Michel may have had dissociative identity
disorder (commonly known as multiple personality disorder). Some
doctors have suggested that many of Michel’s symptoms are consistent
with, and suggestive of, mental disorders in the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR) section on
dissociative disorders, and/or with behaviors observed in patients
with these disorders, such as the temporary adoption of bizarre, rigid
body postures (dystonia); the use of the first-person plural pronoun
we to describe one’s self; the markedly dilated pupils not explained
by any external stimuli; full or partial amnesia; the emergence of
distinct personalities among the demons; Michel’s feeling as though
her body was acting outside her volition (depersonalization); fear or
rejection of sexuality; the persistence of these symptoms despite
medical treatment, and in absence of any known medical cause; and many
others.
While having multiple personality disorder would explain all of the
above, there are still a few things which
medical science and I am assuming the Atheists cannot. Firstly, while
she was known to speak both German and Latin fluently, she apparently
spoke fluently and flawlessly in several languages during her
"demonic possession" which her family and friends all confirm that she
never studied. Secondly, while
multiple personality disorder could explain the "demonic voice" in
which she spoke, it has been confirmed that there are two or more
voices present at once emitting from Anneliese, which have been found
upon an analysis of the audio recording below. So how would the
Atheists here explain and accounts for the two aforementioned
phenomenon?.
PS: While I am fully aware that anti-psychotic and anti-depressant
medications were not as advanced
in the 1970's as they are today, why is it that the strongest anti-
psychotic medications available at the
time did nothing to subdue her or to get rid of her consistent state
of multiple personality disorder.
She never had a single moment of lucidity at all no matter how much
medication she was given and
this is unheard of even with the criminally insane!. Her "demonic
possession" audio recording below
is very frightening and deeply disturbing in my opinion!.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Michel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4n9vK0_mdk
Germany to a strict Catholic family. When she was sixteen, she
suffered a severe convulsion and was diagnosed with epilepsy. Soon,
she began hallucinating while praying. In 1973, she suffered from
depression and began to hear voices telling her that she was “damned”
and would “rot in hell”.
It has been speculated that Michel may have had dissociative identity
disorder (commonly known as multiple personality disorder). Some
doctors have suggested that many of Michel’s symptoms are consistent
with, and suggestive of, mental disorders in the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR) section on
dissociative disorders, and/or with behaviors observed in patients
with these disorders, such as the temporary adoption of bizarre, rigid
body postures (dystonia); the use of the first-person plural pronoun
we to describe one’s self; the markedly dilated pupils not explained
by any external stimuli; full or partial amnesia; the emergence of
distinct personalities among the demons; Michel’s feeling as though
her body was acting outside her volition (depersonalization); fear or
rejection of sexuality; the persistence of these symptoms despite
medical treatment, and in absence of any known medical cause; and many
others.
While having multiple personality disorder would explain all of the
above, there are still a few things which
medical science and I am assuming the Atheists cannot. Firstly, while
she was known to speak both German and Latin fluently, she apparently
spoke fluently and flawlessly in several languages during her
"demonic possession" which her family and friends all confirm that she
never studied. Secondly, while
multiple personality disorder could explain the "demonic voice" in
which she spoke, it has been confirmed that there are two or more
voices present at once emitting from Anneliese, which have been found
upon an analysis of the audio recording below. So how would the
Atheists here explain and accounts for the two aforementioned
phenomenon?.
PS: While I am fully aware that anti-psychotic and anti-depressant
medications were not as advanced
in the 1970's as they are today, why is it that the strongest anti-
psychotic medications available at the
time did nothing to subdue her or to get rid of her consistent state
of multiple personality disorder.
She never had a single moment of lucidity at all no matter how much
medication she was given and
this is unheard of even with the criminally insane!. Her "demonic
possession" audio recording below
is very frightening and deeply disturbing in my opinion!.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Michel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4n9vK0_mdk
Hairy Sasquatch
Dec 9, 2011, 9:41:05 PM12/9/11
to
"Emmett Till" <etil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4fe4f08-c0ad-40f9...@r6g2000yqr.googlegroups.com...
Anneliese Michel was born on 21 September 1952, in Leiblfing, Bavaria,
Germany to a strict Catholic family. When she was sixteen, she
suffered a severe convulsion and was diagnosed with epilepsy. Soon,
she began hallucinating while praying. In 1973, she suffered from
depression and began to hear voices telling her that she was “damned”
and would “rot in hell”.
Snip!
Germany to a strict Catholic family. When she was sixteen, she
suffered a severe convulsion and was diagnosed with epilepsy. Soon,
she began hallucinating while praying. In 1973, she suffered from
depression and began to hear voices telling her that she was “damned”
and would “rot in hell”.
It's called INSANITY, not demon possession.
panamfloyd@hotmail.com rade
Dec 10, 2011, 12:03:08 AM12/10/11
to
On Dec 9, 8:50 pm, Emmett Till <etill1...@gmail.com> wrote:
snippy.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Michel
From the article: "On 1 July 1976, Anneliese died in her sleep. The
autopsy report stated her cause of death as malnutrition and
dehydration from almost a year of semi-starvation while the rites of
exorcism were performed.[5] She weighed 68 pounds (30.91 kilograms)."
That's how *this* atheist "explains" the sad case of Anneliese Michel.
Just another example of how theistic freaks kill young people.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain
Religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
snippy.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Michel
From the article: "On 1 July 1976, Anneliese died in her sleep. The
autopsy report stated her cause of death as malnutrition and
dehydration from almost a year of semi-starvation while the rites of
exorcism were performed.[5] She weighed 68 pounds (30.91 kilograms)."
That's how *this* atheist "explains" the sad case of Anneliese Michel.
Just another example of how theistic freaks kill young people.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain
Religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
Bounder
Dec 10, 2011, 12:51:22 AM12/10/11
to
On Dec 9, 8:50 pm, Emmett Till <etill1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anneliese Michel was born on 21 September 1952, in Leiblfing, Bavaria,
> Germany to a strict Catholic family. When she was sixteen, she
> suffered a severe convulsion and was diagnosed with epilepsy. Soon,
> she began hallucinating while praying. In 1973, she suffered from
> depression and began to hear voices telling her that she was “damned”
> and would “rot in hell”.
Yes, and I knew one who sucked on the barrel of a shotgun because
> Germany to a strict Catholic family. When she was sixteen, she
> suffered a severe convulsion and was diagnosed with epilepsy. Soon,
> she began hallucinating while praying. In 1973, she suffered from
> depression and began to hear voices telling her that she was “damned”
> and would “rot in hell”.
Hitler was planning his second coming.
demonic phenomena?
>
> PS: While I am fully aware that anti-psychotic and anti-depressant
> medications were not as advanced
> in the 1970's as they are today, why is it that the strongest anti-
> psychotic medications available at the
> time did nothing to subdue her or to get rid of her consistent state
> of multiple personality disorder.
> She never had a single moment of lucidity at all no matter how much
> medication she was given and
> this is unheard of even with the criminally insane!. Her "demonic
> possession" audio recording below
> is very frightening and deeply disturbing in my opinion!.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Michel
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4n9vK0_mdk
nothing to do with what religion characterizes as divine?
thomas p.
Dec 10, 2011, 3:43:22 AM12/10/11
to
"Emmett Till" <etil...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelelsen
news:d4fe4f08-c0ad-40f9-830a-snip--
snip
No more women turning into snakes stories?
Plonk
thomas p
I bring you the stately matron Christendom, returning bedraggled, besmirched
and dishonored from pirate raids in Kiao-Chow, Manchuria, South Africa and
the Philippines, with her soul full of meanness, her pocket full of boodle,
and her mouth full of pious hypocrisies. Give her soap and a towel, but hide
the looking-glass.
Mark Twain
news:d4fe4f08-c0ad-40f9-830a-snip--
snip
No more women turning into snakes stories?
Plonk
thomas p
I bring you the stately matron Christendom, returning bedraggled, besmirched
and dishonored from pirate raids in Kiao-Chow, Manchuria, South Africa and
the Philippines, with her soul full of meanness, her pocket full of boodle,
and her mouth full of pious hypocrisies. Give her soap and a towel, but hide
the looking-glass.
Mark Twain
Malygris
Dec 10, 2011, 7:15:29 AM12/10/11
to
panam...@hotmail.com rade wrote:
> On Dec 9, 8:50 pm, Emmett Till <etill1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> snippy.
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Michel
>
> From the article: "On 1 July 1976, Anneliese died in her sleep. The
> autopsy report stated her cause of death as malnutrition and
> dehydration from almost a year of semi-starvation while the rites of
> exorcism were performed.[5] She weighed 68 pounds (30.91 kilograms)."
>
> That's how *this* atheist "explains" the sad case of Anneliese Michel.
> Just another example of how theistic freaks kill young people.
Exactly. The poor woman was mentally ill and instead of giving her the
> On Dec 9, 8:50 pm, Emmett Till <etill1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> snippy.
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Michel
>
> From the article: "On 1 July 1976, Anneliese died in her sleep. The
> autopsy report stated her cause of death as malnutrition and
> dehydration from almost a year of semi-starvation while the rites of
> exorcism were performed.[5] She weighed 68 pounds (30.91 kilograms)."
>
> That's how *this* atheist "explains" the sad case of Anneliese Michel.
> Just another example of how theistic freaks kill young people.
treatment she needed her loving Christian family drove her deeper and deeper
into insanity with their rites and talk of demonic posession, untill she
died after long period of avoidable suffering.
If anything this case is a good argument for atheism!
--
Malygris
ilbe...@gmail.com
Dec 10, 2011, 9:32:07 AM12/10/11
to
mortis .. only to come back to life . There is a Soul and its our
consciousness which is not physical . There was even a woman who
flatlined temporarily during surgery and told the Doctors when she
came around that there is a tennis shoe on the roof of the hospital in
a certain location. And, there was. Get ready folks....we are
eternal and just passing thru this earthly life.
Free Lunch
Dec 10, 2011, 10:16:08 AM12/10/11
to
On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 06:32:07 -0800 (PST), "IlBe...@gmail.com"
<ilbe...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism:
Where is your evidence?
<ilbe...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism:
MarkA
Dec 10, 2011, 10:56:34 AM12/10/11
to
those reporting a near-death experience invariably have a vision from
their own culture and religion.
--
MarkA
If you can read this, you can stop reading now.
Emmett Till
Dec 10, 2011, 12:04:35 PM12/10/11
to
Wow, so many rude and arrogant people in this NG!. I am not religious
at
all by the way and I was not trying to challenge Atheism. I was
merely
submitting an audio recording of an infamous case of the paranormal
and asking
for some comments. I was hoping for some polite, friendly, civil,
thought
provoking discussions on what may account for this supposed case of
demonic possession.
I was hoping that people here possessed both critical thinking skills
and deductive
reasoning abilities, but instead I only found rude ass holes for the
most part!.
While having multiple personality disorder would explain all of the
above, there are still a few things which medical science and I am
assuming
the Atheists cannot. Firstly, while she was known to speak both German
and Latin
fluently, she apparently spoke fluently and flawlessly in several
languages during
her "demonic possession" which her family and friends all confirm that
she
never studied. Secondly, while multiple personality disorder could
explain the
"demonic voice" in which she spoke, it has been confirmed that there
are two or more
voices present at once emitting from Anneliese, which have been found
upon an analysis
of the audio recording below. So how would the Atheists here explain
and accounts for
the two aforementioned phenomenon?.
PS: While I am fully aware that anti-psychotic and anti-depressant
medications were not as advanced in the 1970's as they are today, why
is it that the
strongest anti-psychotic medications available at the time did nothing
discourse on this subject!.
at
all by the way and I was not trying to challenge Atheism. I was
merely
submitting an audio recording of an infamous case of the paranormal
and asking
for some comments. I was hoping for some polite, friendly, civil,
thought
provoking discussions on what may account for this supposed case of
demonic possession.
I was hoping that people here possessed both critical thinking skills
and deductive
reasoning abilities, but instead I only found rude ass holes for the
most part!.
While having multiple personality disorder would explain all of the
above, there are still a few things which medical science and I am
assuming
the Atheists cannot. Firstly, while she was known to speak both German
and Latin
fluently, she apparently spoke fluently and flawlessly in several
languages during
her "demonic possession" which her family and friends all confirm that
she
never studied. Secondly, while multiple personality disorder could
explain the
"demonic voice" in which she spoke, it has been confirmed that there
are two or more
voices present at once emitting from Anneliese, which have been found
upon an analysis
of the audio recording below. So how would the Atheists here explain
and accounts for
the two aforementioned phenomenon?.
PS: While I am fully aware that anti-psychotic and anti-depressant
medications were not as advanced in the 1970's as they are today, why
is it that the
to subdue her or
to get rid of her consistent state of multiple personality disorder.
She never had a single
moment of lucidity at all no matter how much medication she was given
and this is unheard of
even with the criminally insane!. Her "demonic possession" audio
recording below is very frightening
and deeply disturbing in my opinion!.
I would appreciate some thought provoking, polite, respectful
to get rid of her consistent state of multiple personality disorder.
She never had a single
moment of lucidity at all no matter how much medication she was given
and this is unheard of
even with the criminally insane!. Her "demonic possession" audio
recording below is very frightening
and deeply disturbing in my opinion!.
discourse on this subject!.
Paul David Wright
Dec 10, 2011, 12:55:09 PM12/10/11
to
Emmett Till <etil...@gmail.com> wrote in
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ma
> il From: Emmett Till <etil...@gmail.com>
> Newsgroups:
> alt.atheism,alt.agnosticism,sci.skeptic,alt.deism,alt.paranormal
> Subject: HOW DO ATHEISTS EXPLAIN THE CASE OF ANNELIESE MICHEL? Date:
> Fri, 9 Dec 2011 17:50:37 -0800 (PST) Organization:
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> sci.skeptic:215827 alt.deism:774 alt.paranormal:15096
>
> Anneliese Michel was born on 21 September 1952, in Leiblfing, Bavaria,
> Germany to a strict Catholic family. When she was sixteen, she
> suffered a severe convulsion and was diagnosed with epilepsy. Soon,
> she began hallucinating while praying.
If she had epilepsy, that's good enough of an explanation.
> Anneliese Michel was born on 21 September 1952, in Leiblfing, Bavaria,
> Germany to a strict Catholic family. When she was sixteen, she
> suffered a severe convulsion and was diagnosed with epilepsy. Soon,
> she began hallucinating while praying.
PDW
Paul David Wright
Dec 10, 2011, 1:01:22 PM12/10/11
to
"panam...@hotmail.com rade" <panam...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:fa17f59d-4ceb-4989...@v11g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
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transit3.
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m
> ail From: "panam...@hotmail.com rade" <panam...@hotmail.com>
> Newsgroups:
> alt.atheism,alt.agnosticism,sci.skeptic,alt.deism,alt.paranormal
> Subject: Re: HOW DO ATHEISTS EXPLAIN THE CASE OF ANNELIESE MICHEL?
> Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 21:03:08 -0800 (PST) Organization:
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But that's sad. Another example of how faith kills.
PDW
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> ail From: "panam...@hotmail.com rade" <panam...@hotmail.com>
> Newsgroups:
> alt.atheism,alt.agnosticism,sci.skeptic,alt.deism,alt.paranormal
> Subject: Re: HOW DO ATHEISTS EXPLAIN THE CASE OF ANNELIESE MICHEL?
> Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 21:03:08 -0800 (PST) Organization:
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> alt.deism:778 alt.paranormal:15100
>
> On Dec 9, 8:50=A0pm, Emmett Till <etill1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> snippy.
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Michel
>
> From the article: "On 1 July 1976, Anneliese died in her sleep. The
> autopsy report stated her cause of death as malnutrition and
> dehydration from almost a year of semi-starvation while the rites of
> exorcism were performed.[5] She weighed 68 pounds (30.91 kilograms)."
>
> That's how *this* atheist "explains" the sad case of Anneliese Michel.
> Just another example of how theistic freaks kill young people.
>
>
Hmmm, I didn't get that far.
> On Dec 9, 8:50=A0pm, Emmett Till <etill1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> snippy.
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Michel
>
> From the article: "On 1 July 1976, Anneliese died in her sleep. The
> autopsy report stated her cause of death as malnutrition and
> dehydration from almost a year of semi-starvation while the rites of
> exorcism were performed.[5] She weighed 68 pounds (30.91 kilograms)."
>
> That's how *this* atheist "explains" the sad case of Anneliese Michel.
> Just another example of how theistic freaks kill young people.
>
>
But that's sad. Another example of how faith kills.
PDW
Paul David Wright
Dec 10, 2011, 1:08:04 PM12/10/11
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"IlBe...@gmail.com" <ilbe...@gmail.com> wrote in
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> ut.readnews.com!transit3.readnews.com!postnews.google.com!
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> ooglegroups.com!not-for-mail From: "IlBe...@gmail.com"
> <ilbe...@gmail.com> Newsgroups:
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> alt.deism:782 alt.paranormal:15104
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dx4n9vK0_mdk
PDW
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> ooglegroups.com!not-for-mail From: "IlBe...@gmail.com"
> <ilbe...@gmail.com> Newsgroups:
> alt.atheism,alt.agnosticism,sci.skeptic,alt.deism,alt.paranormal
> Subject: Re: HOW DO ATHEISTS EXPLAIN THE CASE OF ANNELIESE MICHEL?
> Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 06:32:07 -0800 (PST) Organization:
> Subject: Re: HOW DO ATHEISTS EXPLAIN THE CASE OF ANNELIESE MICHEL?
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> alt.atheism:2259134 alt.agnosticism:97011 sci.skeptic:215858
> alt.deism:782 alt.paranormal:15104
>
> On Dec 9, 7:50=A0pm, Emmett Till <etill1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anneliese Michel was born on 21 September 1952, in Leiblfing,
>> Bavaria, Germany to a strict Catholic family. When she was sixteen,
>> she suffered a severe convulsion and was diagnosed with epilepsy.
>> Soon, she began hallucinating while praying. In 1973, she suffered
>> from depression and began to hear voices telling her that she was
>> =93damned=94 and would =93rot in hell=94.
> On Dec 9, 7:50=A0pm, Emmett Till <etill1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anneliese Michel was born on 21 September 1952, in Leiblfing,
>> Bavaria, Germany to a strict Catholic family. When she was sixteen,
>> she suffered a severe convulsion and was diagnosed with epilepsy.
>> Soon, she began hallucinating while praying. In 1973, she suffered
>> from depression and began to hear voices telling her that she was
>>
>> It has been speculated that Michel may have had dissociative identity
>> disorder (commonly known as multiple personality disorder). Some
>> doctors have suggested that many of Michel=92s symptoms are
>> It has been speculated that Michel may have had dissociative identity
>> disorder (commonly known as multiple personality disorder). Some
>> consistent with, and suggestive of, mental disorders in the
>> Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR)
>> section on dissociative disorders, and/or with behaviors observed in
>> patients with these disorders, such as the temporary adoption of
>> bizarre, rigid body postures (dystonia); the use of the first-person
>> plural pronoun we to describe one=92s self; the markedly dilated
>> Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR)
>> section on dissociative disorders, and/or with behaviors observed in
>> patients with these disorders, such as the temporary adoption of
>> bizarre, rigid body postures (dystonia); the use of the first-person
>> pupils not explained by any external stimuli; full or partial
>> amnesia; the emergence of distinct personalities among the demons;
>> Michel=92s feeling as though her body was acting outside her volition
>> amnesia; the emergence of distinct personalities among the demons;
>
> ....or Val Thomas who was flatlined for some 17 hours with rigor
> mortis .. only to come back to life . There is a Soul
Stopping at the first lie.
> ....or Val Thomas who was flatlined for some 17 hours with rigor
> mortis .. only to come back to life . There is a Soul
PDW
A B
Dec 10, 2011, 2:13:55 PM12/10/11
to
"Malygris" <Highlan...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:9kh0r2...@mid.individual.net...
Although, according to the same article, she was given the primitive
treatment then available for years without success. Not saying that it was
necessarily anything but brain problems, just tired of implications of "why
don't all these people just take their pills". It's not always that simple.
I notice most of you have ignored the actual phenomena Emmett was asking
about, so here's my two pennorth: there are people in Mongolia who can sing
two notes at once, so I suppose it could be possible for someone to mimic
two voices at once. As for speaking languages she didn't know, that's a
question of how sound the evidence is that she did so. I'd be interested to
hear more detail about that. (There are other such cases, but the same
applies to them).
--
A. B.
><>
My e-mail address is zen177395 at zendotcodotuk, though I don't check that
account very often.
Post unto others as you would have them post unto you.
news:9kh0r2...@mid.individual.net...
treatment then available for years without success. Not saying that it was
necessarily anything but brain problems, just tired of implications of "why
don't all these people just take their pills". It's not always that simple.
I notice most of you have ignored the actual phenomena Emmett was asking
about, so here's my two pennorth: there are people in Mongolia who can sing
two notes at once, so I suppose it could be possible for someone to mimic
two voices at once. As for speaking languages she didn't know, that's a
question of how sound the evidence is that she did so. I'd be interested to
hear more detail about that. (There are other such cases, but the same
applies to them).
--
A. B.
><>
My e-mail address is zen177395 at zendotcodotuk, though I don't check that
account very often.
Post unto others as you would have them post unto you.
MarkA
Dec 10, 2011, 3:19:04 PM12/10/11
to
On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 09:04:35 -0800, Emmett Till wrote:
>
> I would appreciate some thought provoking, polite, respectful
> discourse on this subject!.
I suggest you start here:
>
> I would appreciate some thought provoking, polite, respectful
> discourse on this subject!.
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4248
Harry F. Leopold
Dec 10, 2011, 3:38:12 PM12/10/11
to
On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 11:04:35 -0600, Emmett Till wrote
(in article
<6ea2a97a-b054-46fa...@q16g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>):
> Wow, so many rude and arrogant people in this NG!. I am not religious at all
> by the way and I was not trying to challenge Atheism.
snip
We get plenty of idiots in aa that we are rather short tempered, after
hearing the same moronic statements several hundred times hearing it yet
another time, well, even the most reasonable person can be forgiven for being
a bit blunt.
As for being arrogant, no, that would be the god-believers coming here, we
atheists make no claims of having an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving
super friend who loves them and is going to torture those they hate forever
and ever.
And as for challenging atheism, what is there to challenge? All an atheist is
is someone who does not believe in gods. You are an atheist with regards to
all those thousands of gods of other beliefs, we just don't believe in one
more god than you don't.
I mean, really do you worry about what Odin is going to do to you after you
die? That would be silly (at the very least).
The only thing all atheists have in common is a lack of god-belief. (And that
would be ALL claimed gods, not just the one you may believe in.)
(Snipped paranormal NG as that one is just plain silly)
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
Of course I am a Marxist, I love Groucho, Checo and Harpo!
(in article
<6ea2a97a-b054-46fa...@q16g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>):
> Wow, so many rude and arrogant people in this NG!. I am not religious at all
> by the way and I was not trying to challenge Atheism.
We get plenty of idiots in aa that we are rather short tempered, after
hearing the same moronic statements several hundred times hearing it yet
another time, well, even the most reasonable person can be forgiven for being
a bit blunt.
As for being arrogant, no, that would be the god-believers coming here, we
atheists make no claims of having an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving
super friend who loves them and is going to torture those they hate forever
and ever.
And as for challenging atheism, what is there to challenge? All an atheist is
is someone who does not believe in gods. You are an atheist with regards to
all those thousands of gods of other beliefs, we just don't believe in one
more god than you don't.
I mean, really do you worry about what Odin is going to do to you after you
die? That would be silly (at the very least).
The only thing all atheists have in common is a lack of god-belief. (And that
would be ALL claimed gods, not just the one you may believe in.)
(Snipped paranormal NG as that one is just plain silly)
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
Of course I am a Marxist, I love Groucho, Checo and Harpo!
Bounder
Dec 10, 2011, 4:03:48 PM12/10/11
to
On Dec 10, 12:04 pm, Emmett Till <etill1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow, so many rude and arrogant people in this NG!. I am not religious
> at
> all by the way and I was not trying to challenge Atheism. I was
> merely
> submitting an audio recording of an infamous case of the paranormal
> and asking
> for some comments. I was hoping for some polite, friendly, civil,
> thought
> provoking discussions on what may account for this supposed case of
> demonic possession.
Again ... why would you expect atheists to discuss what you
> Wow, so many rude and arrogant people in this NG!. I am not religious
> at
> all by the way and I was not trying to challenge Atheism. I was
> merely
> submitting an audio recording of an infamous case of the paranormal
> and asking
> for some comments. I was hoping for some polite, friendly, civil,
> thought
> provoking discussions on what may account for this supposed case of
> demonic possession.
characterize as
"demonic possession"?
> I was hoping that people here possessed both critical thinking skills
> and deductive
> reasoning abilities, but instead I only found rude ass holes for the
> most part!.
to discuss snow tires.
Ken
Dec 10, 2011, 4:19:58 PM12/10/11
to
On Dec 10, 6:32 am, "IlBenButtfucked @gmail.com" wrote another load of
Mindless Pointless Daveshite not worth repeating
Do you have ANY idea just how fucked up your life has become, Dimwit?
Mindless Pointless Daveshite not worth repeating
Do you have ANY idea just how fucked up your life has become, Dimwit?
John Baker
Dec 10, 2011, 5:28:26 PM12/10/11
to
alleged possession, yet I've never seen any *real* evidence for it.
Only claims.
>I'd be interested to
>hear more detail about that. (There are other such cases, but the same
>applies to them).
majority of cases of so-called "possession" seem to occur in cultures
where there's a strong belief in such things to begin with.
Believers might be well advised to present some real, testable
evidence for the reality of demons before they try to convince us of
the reality of possession.
A B
Dec 11, 2011, 6:14:35 AM12/11/11
to
"John Baker" <nu...@bizniz.net> wrote on 10th Dec:
Well, surely if they can prove the possession they've proved the demons?
Properly prove, I mean. As for the culture thing, I wouldn't expect people
who didn't believe in demons to mention possession; they'd just assume it
was brain trouble pure and simple. If the victim spoke in two voices at
once, they'd assume that that was possible, since no other possibility was
available; and if he/she spoke in foreign languages they'd be unlikely to
check the far-fetched, to them, possibility that he/she was speaking them
correctly.
Properly prove, I mean. As for the culture thing, I wouldn't expect people
who didn't believe in demons to mention possession; they'd just assume it
was brain trouble pure and simple. If the victim spoke in two voices at
once, they'd assume that that was possible, since no other possibility was
available; and if he/she spoke in foreign languages they'd be unlikely to
check the far-fetched, to them, possibility that he/she was speaking them
correctly.
A B
Dec 11, 2011, 6:16:55 AM12/11/11
to
"Ken" <flak...@aol.com> wrote on 10th Dec:
>On Dec 10, 6:32 am, "IlBenButtfucked @gmail.com" wrote another load of
>Mindless Pointless Daveshite not worth repeating
>Do you have ANY idea just how fucked up your life has become, Dimwit?
Um, your own posting doesn't give a very good impression, either.
>Mindless Pointless Daveshite not worth repeating
>Do you have ANY idea just how fucked up your life has become, Dimwit?
John Baker
Dec 11, 2011, 8:32:24 AM12/11/11
to
On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 11:14:35 -0000, "A B" <@bleBaker.uk> wrote:
>"John Baker" <nu...@bizniz.net> wrote on 10th Dec:
>> On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:13:55 -0000, "A B" <@bleBaker.uk> wrote:
>>>I notice most of you have ignored the actual phenomena Emmett was asking
>>>about, so here's my two pennorth: there are people in Mongolia who can
>>>sing
>>>two notes at once, so I suppose it could be possible for someone to mimic
>>>two voices at once. As for speaking languages she didn't know, that's a
>>>question of how sound the evidence is that she did so.
>>
>> That's one of my questions as well. It's a common claim in cases of
>> alleged possession, yet I've never seen any *real* evidence for it.
>> Only claims.
>>
>>>I'd be interested to
>>>hear more detail about that. (There are other such cases, but the same
>>>applies to them).
>>
>> It's perhaps telling that, while there are exceptions, the vast
>> majority of cases of so-called "possession" seem to occur in cultures
>> where there's a strong belief in such things to begin with.
>>
>> Believers might be well advised to present some real, testable
>> evidence for the reality of demons before they try to convince us of
>> the reality of possession.
>
>Well, surely if they can prove the possession they've proved the demons?
>Properly prove, I mean.
Not really. Even if they could prove that the affliction is indeed
>"John Baker" <nu...@bizniz.net> wrote on 10th Dec:
>> On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:13:55 -0000, "A B" <@bleBaker.uk> wrote:
>>>I notice most of you have ignored the actual phenomena Emmett was asking
>>>about, so here's my two pennorth: there are people in Mongolia who can
>>>sing
>>>two notes at once, so I suppose it could be possible for someone to mimic
>>>two voices at once. As for speaking languages she didn't know, that's a
>>>question of how sound the evidence is that she did so.
>>
>> That's one of my questions as well. It's a common claim in cases of
>> alleged possession, yet I've never seen any *real* evidence for it.
>> Only claims.
>>
>>>I'd be interested to
>>>hear more detail about that. (There are other such cases, but the same
>>>applies to them).
>>
>> It's perhaps telling that, while there are exceptions, the vast
>> majority of cases of so-called "possession" seem to occur in cultures
>> where there's a strong belief in such things to begin with.
>>
>> Believers might be well advised to present some real, testable
>> evidence for the reality of demons before they try to convince us of
>> the reality of possession.
>
>Well, surely if they can prove the possession they've proved the demons?
>Properly prove, I mean.
caused by a non-corporeal entity invading the victim's body and mind,
that doesn't prove it's a demon.
Some cultures, for example, believe that ghosts can possess the
living.
>As for the culture thing, I wouldn't expect people
>who didn't believe in demons to mention possession; they'd just assume it
>was brain trouble pure and simple.
according to the prevalent beliefs of the victim's culture. For
example, what most Westerners think of as "classic" possession occurs
for the most part in predominantly Catholic societies.
>If the victim spoke in two voices at
>once, they'd assume that that was possible, since no other possibility was
>available;
although the singer isn't actually singing with two voices. It's a
neat trick, but the explanation is a bit complicated.
>and if he/she spoke in foreign languages they'd be unlikely to
>check the far-fetched, to them, possibility that he/she was speaking them
>correctly.
investigate. Perhaps the victim is merely uttering nonsense syllables
that *sound* like a particular foreign language to those not familiar
with it. Perhaps he's actually speaking that language. But no
*competent* doctor or scientist would just assume, one way or the
other.
Cases of "real" possession are seldom if ever as severe as the
phenomenon is commonly portrayed in fiction. In fact, most cases
consist of the victim merely being terrorized by the entity - or
rather, *believing* he is - with no actual possession in the classic
sense. Even the case of Anneliese Michel has been greatly embellished
in the retelling.
As of now, there is no convincing evidence that "possession" is in
fact caused by malevolent non-corporeal entities. There is no real
evidence that such entities actually exist, nor is there a known
scientifically plausible mechanism by which consciousness and
intelligence could exist without a physical body - not to mention how
an immaterial being could interact with material objects. Given that,
the logical conclusion is that possession is a mental illness, albeit
one with religious overtones.
John Baker
Dec 11, 2011, 8:33:38 AM12/11/11
to
with these idiotic trolls as we are, then you, sir, are a saint. <G>
A B
Dec 12, 2011, 12:51:30 PM12/12/11
to
"Free Lunch" <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote on 10th Dec:
Happens When We Die" by Sam Parnia - overambitious title but good book). Dr
Parnia is doing a systematic study of near death experiences, and is hoping
to find and verify a lot more cases like the
tennis shoe one (the AWARE study,
http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=38). Results due early
next year.
There's also the evidence of a few mediums who come up with information they
apparently couldn't have known any other way. Of course there aren't many
that convincing, but Gordon Smith has been tested by some of the big names
and has never slipped yet.
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 06:32:07 -0800 (PST), "IlBe...@gmail.com"
>>....or Val Thomas who was flatlined for some 17 hours with rigor
>>mortis .. only to come back to life . There is a Soul and its our
>>consciousness which is not physical . There was even a woman who
>>flatlined temporarily during surgery and told the Doctors when she
>>came around that there is a tennis shoe on the roof of the hospital in
>>a certain location. And, there was. Get ready folks....we are
>>eternal and just passing thru this earthly life.
>
> Where is your evidence?
That is his evidence. There's a lot more along the same lines (see "What
>>mortis .. only to come back to life . There is a Soul and its our
>>consciousness which is not physical . There was even a woman who
>>flatlined temporarily during surgery and told the Doctors when she
>>came around that there is a tennis shoe on the roof of the hospital in
>>a certain location. And, there was. Get ready folks....we are
>>eternal and just passing thru this earthly life.
>
> Where is your evidence?
Happens When We Die" by Sam Parnia - overambitious title but good book). Dr
Parnia is doing a systematic study of near death experiences, and is hoping
to find and verify a lot more cases like the
tennis shoe one (the AWARE study,
http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=38). Results due early
next year.
There's also the evidence of a few mediums who come up with information they
apparently couldn't have known any other way. Of course there aren't many
that convincing, but Gordon Smith has been tested by some of the big names
and has never slipped yet.
Mickey
Dec 16, 2011, 2:20:18 AM12/16/11
to
On Dec 10, 3:38 pm, Harry F. Leopold <hleop...@coxyx.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 11:04:35 -0600, Emmett Till wrote
> (in article
> <6ea2a97a-b054-46fa-b168-686be48f2...@q16g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>):
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 11:04:35 -0600, Emmett Till wrote
> (in article
chasing chicks (women).
Mickey
Dec 16, 2011, 2:11:26 AM12/16/11
to
Ron?
Mickey
Dec 16, 2011, 2:14:17 AM12/16/11
to
On Dec 10, 10:16 am, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 06:32:07 -0800 (PST), "IlBeBa...@gmail.com"
> <ilbeba...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism:
> Where is your evidence?-
If he's gullible enough to be a theist, he's gullible enough
to believe anything stupid.
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 06:32:07 -0800 (PST), "IlBeBa...@gmail.com"
> <ilbeba...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism:
If he's gullible enough to be a theist, he's gullible enough
to believe anything stupid.
John Stockwell
Dec 19, 2011, 12:12:22 PM12/19/11
to
On Dec 10, 10:04 am, Emmett Till <etill1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow, so many rude and arrogant people in this NG!. I am not religious
> at
> all by the way and I was not trying to challenge Atheism. I was
> merely
> submitting an audio recording of an infamous case of the paranormal
> and asking
> for some comments. I was hoping for some polite, friendly, civil,
> thought
> provoking discussions on what may account for this supposed case of
> demonic possession.
> I was hoping that people here possessed both critical thinking skills
> and deductive
> reasoning abilities, but instead I only found rude ass holes for the
> most part!.
Let me tell you what is rude, pal. First of all going by the name of a
> Wow, so many rude and arrogant people in this NG!. I am not religious
> at
> all by the way and I was not trying to challenge Atheism. I was
> merely
> submitting an audio recording of an infamous case of the paranormal
> and asking
> for some comments. I was hoping for some polite, friendly, civil,
> thought
> provoking discussions on what may account for this supposed case of
> demonic possession.
> I was hoping that people here possessed both critical thinking skills
> and deductive
> reasoning abilities, but instead I only found rude ass holes for the
> most part!.
murdered
African American boy. That is rude.
>
> While having multiple personality disorder would explain all of the
> above, there are still a few things which medical science and I am
> assuming
> the Atheists cannot. Firstly, while she was known to speak both German
> and Latin
> fluently, she apparently spoke fluently and flawlessly in several
> languages during
> her "demonic possession" which her family and friends all confirm that
> she
> never studied. Secondly, while multiple personality disorder could
> explain the
> "demonic voice" in which she spoke, it has been confirmed that there
> are two or more
> voices present at once emitting from Anneliese, which have been found
> upon an analysis
> of the audio recording below. So how would the Atheists here explain
> and accounts for
> the two aforementioned phenomenon?.
fanatical Catholic
environment, and was mentally ill. She could certainly learned prayers
in Latin.
Look up "Tibetan throat singing" for the multiple voices.
Finally, the story is told through the lens of believers, who really
do not have contrary
explanations in their minds as possibilities.
>
> PS: While I am fully aware that anti-psychotic and anti-depressant
> medications were not as advanced in the 1970's as they are today, why
> is it that the
> strongest anti-psychotic medications available at the time did nothing
> to subdue her or
> to get rid of her consistent state of multiple personality disorder.
> She never had a single
> moment of lucidity at all no matter how much medication she was given
> and this is unheard of
> even with the criminally insane!. Her "demonic possession" audio
> recording below is very frightening
> and deeply disturbing in my opinion!.
>
> I would appreciate some thought provoking, polite, respectful
> discourse on this subject!.
those who treated
her illness as demonic possession.
-John
John Stockwell
Dec 19, 2011, 12:09:06 PM12/19/11
to
On Dec 9, 6:50 pm, Emmett Till <etill1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anneliese Michel was born on 21 September 1952, in Leiblfing, Bavaria,
> Germany to a strict Catholic family. When she was sixteen, she
> suffered a severe convulsion and was diagnosed with epilepsy. Soon,
> she began hallucinating while praying. In 1973, she suffered from
> depression and began to hear voices telling her that she was “damned”
> and would “rot in hell”.
>
> It has been speculated that Michel may have had dissociative identity
> disorder (commonly known as multiple personality disorder). Some
> doctors have suggested that many of Michel’s symptoms are consistent
> with, and suggestive of, mental disorders in the Diagnostic and
> Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR) section on
> dissociative disorders, and/or with behaviors observed in patients
> with these disorders, such as the temporary adoption of bizarre, rigid
> body postures (dystonia); the use of the first-person plural pronoun
> we to describe one’s self; the markedly dilated pupils not explained
> by any external stimuli; full or partial amnesia; the emergence of
> distinct personalities among the demons; Michel’s feeling as though
> her body was acting outside her volition (depersonalization); fear or
> rejection of sexuality; the persistence of these symptoms despite
> medical treatment, and in absence of any known medical cause; and many
> others.
>
> Anneliese Michel was born on 21 September 1952, in Leiblfing, Bavaria,
> Germany to a strict Catholic family. When she was sixteen, she
> suffered a severe convulsion and was diagnosed with epilepsy. Soon,
> she began hallucinating while praying. In 1973, she suffered from
> depression and began to hear voices telling her that she was “damned”
> and would “rot in hell”.
>
> It has been speculated that Michel may have had dissociative identity
> disorder (commonly known as multiple personality disorder). Some
> doctors have suggested that many of Michel’s symptoms are consistent
> with, and suggestive of, mental disorders in the Diagnostic and
> Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR) section on
> dissociative disorders, and/or with behaviors observed in patients
> with these disorders, such as the temporary adoption of bizarre, rigid
> body postures (dystonia); the use of the first-person plural pronoun
> we to describe one’s self; the markedly dilated pupils not explained
> by any external stimuli; full or partial amnesia; the emergence of
> distinct personalities among the demons; Michel’s feeling as though
> her body was acting outside her volition (depersonalization); fear or
> rejection of sexuality; the persistence of these symptoms despite
> medical treatment, and in absence of any known medical cause; and many
> others.
>
> While having multiple personality disorder would explain all of the
> above, there are still a few things which
> medical science and I am assuming the Atheists cannot. Firstly, while
> she was known to speak both German and Latin fluently, she apparently
> spoke fluently and flawlessly in several languages during her
> "demonic possession" which her family and friends all confirm that she
> never studied.
The young woman was studying to be a teacher, was mentally ill, and
> above, there are still a few things which
> medical science and I am assuming the Atheists cannot. Firstly, while
> she was known to speak both German and Latin fluently, she apparently
> spoke fluently and flawlessly in several languages during her
> "demonic possession" which her family and friends all confirm that she
> never studied.
was fixated
on Catholicism. Hence, she likely was knowledgeable in some Latin. As
to "fluent"
that is another issue. After all, would there be any fluent latin
speakers to have a
latin confab with her? Likely not. The tale grows with the telling.
Take a psychotic person
saying prayers in latin, and then in the next telling, the person is
"possessed" by
a latin speaking demon.
> Secondly, while
> multiple personality disorder could explain the "demonic voice" in
> which she spoke, it has been confirmed that there are two or more
> voices present at once emitting from Anneliese, which have been found
> upon an analysis of the audio recording below. So how would the
> Atheists here explain and accounts for the two aforementioned
> phenomenon?.
come out of their throat.
Look up "Tibetan throat singing" for examples.
>
> PS: While I am fully aware that anti-psychotic and anti-depressant
> medications were not as advanced
> in the 1970's as they are today, why is it that the strongest anti-
> psychotic medications available at the
> time did nothing to subdue her or to get rid of her consistent state
> of multiple personality disorder.
> She never had a single moment of lucidity at all no matter how much
> medication she was given and
> this is unheard of even with the criminally insane!. Her "demonic
> possession" audio recording below
> is very frightening and deeply disturbing in my opinion!.
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4n9vK0_mdk
What is deeply disturbing is that a young woman was allowed to die of
malnutrition
because her stupid relatives were attempting to take her "cure" into
their own
hands by engaging in medieval magic, rather than seeking professional
medical help
for the young woman. The rest of the story of the young woman's
insanity is likely
the religious fanaticism of her familly.
-John
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