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CHRISTIAN ATHEISM
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Madame Monpetit
Feb 2, 2013, 9:53:49 PM2/2/13
to
I was just wondering if a person can be a Christian Atheist, that is
someone who adopts the ethics and non-mystical teachings of Jesus,
while denying that Jesus was a deity?. A Christian Atheist would be
someone who does not believe in Jesus as the son of God strongly
reject any theories of atonement. Furthermore, such a person would
strongly reject the ideas of an afterlife, the power of prayer, the
existence
of a spirit/soul, the existence of Heaven/Hell, the existence of
Angels/Demons,
or any sort of self-awareness or consciousness beyond death.
I know that Jewish Atheism exists. There has been a phenomenon of
atheistic and secular Jewish organizations, mostly in the past
century, from the Jewish socialist Bund in early twentieth-century
Poland to the modern Society for Humanistic Judaism in the United
States. Many Jewish atheists feel comfortable within any of the three
major non-Orthodox Jewish denominations (Reform, Conservative, and
Reconstructionist). This presents less of a contradiction than might
first seem apparent, given Judaism's emphasis on practice over
belief,
with even mainstream guides to Judaism suggesting that belief in God
is not a necessary prerequisite to Jewish observance. However,
Orthodox Judaism regards the acceptance of the "Yoke of Heaven" (the
sovereignty of the God of Israel in the world and the divine origin
of
the Torah) as a fundamental obligation for Jews. Even among
non-Orthodox Jews, espousing atheism remains problematic outside of
the Society for Humanistic Judaism. The Reform movement, for example,
has rejected efforts at affiliation by atheistic temples. The
presence
of atheists in all denominations of modern Judaism, from Secular
Humanistic Judaism to Orthodoxy, has been noted.
Much recent Jewish theology makes few if any metaphysical claims and
is thus compatible with atheism on an ontological level. The founder
of Reconstructionist Judaism, Mordechai Kaplan, espoused a
naturalistic definition of God, while some post-Holocaust theology
has
also eschewed a personal God. The Jewish philosopher Howard Wettstein
has advanced a non-metaphysical approach to religious commitment,
according to which metaphysical theism-atheism is not the issue.
Harold Schulweis, a Conservative rabbi trained in the
Reconstructionist tradition, has argued that Jewish theology should
move from a focus on God to an emphasis on "godliness." This
"predicate theology", while continuing to use theistic language,
again
makes few metaphysical claims that non-believers would find
objectionable.
However, some Jewish atheists remain deeply uncomfortable with the
use
of any kind of theistic language. For such Jews traditional practice
and symbolism
can still retain powerful meaning. They may continue to engage in
Jewish rituals such
as the lighting of Shabbat candles and find meaning in many aspects
of
Jewish culture and religion. For example, to an atheist Jew, the
Menorah might represent the power of the Jewish spirit or stand as a
symbol of the fight against assimilation. No mention of a divine
force
in Jewish history would be accepted literally; the Torah may be
viewed
as a common mythology of the Jewish people, not a faith document or
correct history.
So is there anything comparable with Christianity?. Can a Christian
for example, ritualistically observe Christmas and Easter with
Church services, gift giving, family and other social gatherings,
symbolic decorating, ect; without being self-deluded or self-
deceptive?.
Any advice in this regard?. Are there any actual Christian Atheist
groups or even churches, just like there are Atheist Reform/Liberal
Jewish Temples?.
PS: Is there anything along the lines of a Muslim Atheist does
anyone know?.
Madame Monpetit
someone who adopts the ethics and non-mystical teachings of Jesus,
while denying that Jesus was a deity?. A Christian Atheist would be
someone who does not believe in Jesus as the son of God strongly
reject any theories of atonement. Furthermore, such a person would
strongly reject the ideas of an afterlife, the power of prayer, the
existence
of a spirit/soul, the existence of Heaven/Hell, the existence of
Angels/Demons,
or any sort of self-awareness or consciousness beyond death.
I know that Jewish Atheism exists. There has been a phenomenon of
atheistic and secular Jewish organizations, mostly in the past
century, from the Jewish socialist Bund in early twentieth-century
Poland to the modern Society for Humanistic Judaism in the United
States. Many Jewish atheists feel comfortable within any of the three
major non-Orthodox Jewish denominations (Reform, Conservative, and
Reconstructionist). This presents less of a contradiction than might
first seem apparent, given Judaism's emphasis on practice over
belief,
with even mainstream guides to Judaism suggesting that belief in God
is not a necessary prerequisite to Jewish observance. However,
Orthodox Judaism regards the acceptance of the "Yoke of Heaven" (the
sovereignty of the God of Israel in the world and the divine origin
of
the Torah) as a fundamental obligation for Jews. Even among
non-Orthodox Jews, espousing atheism remains problematic outside of
the Society for Humanistic Judaism. The Reform movement, for example,
has rejected efforts at affiliation by atheistic temples. The
presence
of atheists in all denominations of modern Judaism, from Secular
Humanistic Judaism to Orthodoxy, has been noted.
Much recent Jewish theology makes few if any metaphysical claims and
is thus compatible with atheism on an ontological level. The founder
of Reconstructionist Judaism, Mordechai Kaplan, espoused a
naturalistic definition of God, while some post-Holocaust theology
has
also eschewed a personal God. The Jewish philosopher Howard Wettstein
has advanced a non-metaphysical approach to religious commitment,
according to which metaphysical theism-atheism is not the issue.
Harold Schulweis, a Conservative rabbi trained in the
Reconstructionist tradition, has argued that Jewish theology should
move from a focus on God to an emphasis on "godliness." This
"predicate theology", while continuing to use theistic language,
again
makes few metaphysical claims that non-believers would find
objectionable.
However, some Jewish atheists remain deeply uncomfortable with the
use
of any kind of theistic language. For such Jews traditional practice
and symbolism
can still retain powerful meaning. They may continue to engage in
Jewish rituals such
as the lighting of Shabbat candles and find meaning in many aspects
of
Jewish culture and religion. For example, to an atheist Jew, the
Menorah might represent the power of the Jewish spirit or stand as a
symbol of the fight against assimilation. No mention of a divine
force
in Jewish history would be accepted literally; the Torah may be
viewed
as a common mythology of the Jewish people, not a faith document or
correct history.
So is there anything comparable with Christianity?. Can a Christian
for example, ritualistically observe Christmas and Easter with
Church services, gift giving, family and other social gatherings,
symbolic decorating, ect; without being self-deluded or self-
deceptive?.
Any advice in this regard?. Are there any actual Christian Atheist
groups or even churches, just like there are Atheist Reform/Liberal
Jewish Temples?.
PS: Is there anything along the lines of a Muslim Atheist does
anyone know?.
Madame Monpetit
kni...@baawa.com
Feb 2, 2013, 10:19:16 PM2/2/13
to
On Sat, 2 Feb 2013 18:53:49 -0800 (PST), Madame Monpetit
<madamem...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I was just wondering if a person can be a Christian Atheist,
Oxymoron. Jesus (if he existed) is nothing special to morality.
<madamem...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I was just wondering if a person can be a Christian Atheist,
Moral teaching have been around since day one. Why anyone would want
to have a figurehead for it is a mystery to me.
Perhaps people need a daddy figure or better potty training..
Warlord Steve
BAAW
Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess
Feb 3, 2013, 2:38:19 AM2/3/13
to
On Sat, 2 Feb 2013 18:53:49 -0800 (PST)
Madame Monpetit <madamem...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was just wondering if a person can be a Christian Atheist, that is
That's interesting. (I like this topic.)
> I was just wondering if a person can be a Christian Atheist, that is
> someone who adopts the ethics and non-mystical teachings of Jesus,
> while denying that Jesus was a deity?. A Christian Atheist would be
> someone who does not believe in Jesus as the son of God strongly
> reject any theories of atonement. Furthermore, such a person would
> strongly reject the ideas of an afterlife, the power of prayer, the
> existence of a spirit/soul, the existence of Heaven/Hell, the
> existence of Angels/Demons, or any sort of self-awareness or
> consciousness beyond death.
Assuming that anything was taught by a deity implicitly requires
assuming that the deity existed in the capacity of being a teacher, but
since atheism is the "absence of belief in dieites and supernatural
agents," making such an assumption therefore excludes one from fitting
the "atheist classification."
Atheism: http://www.atheistfrontier.com/glossary/atheism.pl
It's import to note a distinction about atheism that is often
misunderstood -- some people regard atheism as being anti-theistic, but
the reality is that they are very different. For example, where an
anti-theistic attitude is to oppose (or "strongly reject" as you put
it) the various mystical ideas presented in the theistic context, an
atheist merely holds no position on such matters.
> So is there anything comparable with Christianity?. Can a Christian
> for example, ritualistically observe Christmas and Easter with
> Church services, gift giving, family and other social gatherings,
> symbolic decorating, ect; without being self-deluded or self-
> deceptive?.
religion, but religions are actually collections of virtues and values
that are presented as a set of morals and ethics that its followers
should adhere to.
What compares with Christianity is other religions, which espouse sets
of values, some shared, some conflicting, and some that are just
different.
Regarding atheism, there is only a profound and implicit freedom since
atheists are generally self-guiding both morally and ethically. I do
consider values and virtues worthy of consideration if they can stand
independently on their own merits. Perhaps this list of "atheistic
values" might provide you with some things to consider:
Atheistic values: http://www.atheistfrontier.com/values/
One of the beauties of atheism is that there is no dogma, no
expectation, no minimum or maximum intelligence level, no requirement
to know history or math, in fact your neighbour's is almost certainly
an atheist too. Atheism isn't something one has to choose to be
because the absence of belief can only be consumed by belief after
first conceptualizing what it is that is to be believed in.
> Any advice in this regard?. Are there any actual Christian Atheist
> groups or even churches, just like there are Atheist Reform/Liberal
> Jewish Temples?.
>
> PS: Is there anything along the lines of a Muslim Atheist does
> anyone know?.
to me.
My advice to you is to consider the values and virtues that you
personally deem important in a context without religion. As a
free-thinking individual you have the freedom to determine which values
and virtues are most appropriate for your life (which, for most people,
seem to include not excluding oneself from participating in society)
since you [should] truly know best what you need most and want most.
> Madame Monpetit
Cheers to you for asking such an interesting question, and I do hope
you'll post again to share your thoughts regarding your freedom, and
to continue to bring up more interesting topics. (You may also find
the "alt.atheism.moderated" newsgroup to be of interest.)
--
Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess
"Obstacles do not exist to be surrendered to, but only to be broken."
-- Adolf Hitler
Father Haskell
Feb 3, 2013, 2:41:24 AM2/3/13
to
On Feb 2, 9:53 pm, Madame Monpetit <madamemonpe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was just wondering if a person can be a Christian Atheist, that is
> someone who adopts the ethics and non-mystical teachings of Jesus,
> while denying that Jesus was a deity?.
Jesus was insane. Jesus is hardly a model for any behavior.
> I was just wondering if a person can be a Christian Atheist, that is
> someone who adopts the ethics and non-mystical teachings of Jesus,
> while denying that Jesus was a deity?.
felix_unger
Feb 3, 2013, 3:49:09 AM2/3/13
to
On 03-February-2013 6:38 PM, Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist
goddess wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Feb 2013 18:53:49 -0800 (PST)
> Madame Monpetit <madamem...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> Assuming that anything was taught by a deity implicitly requires
> assuming that the deity existed in the capacity of being a teacher, but
> since atheism is the "absence of belief in dieites and supernatural
> agents," making such an assumption therefore excludes one from fitting
> the "atheist classification."
>
> Atheism: http://www.atheistfrontier.com/glossary/atheism.pl
>
> It's import to note a distinction about atheism that is often
> misunderstood -- some people regard atheism as being anti-theistic, but
> the reality is that they are very different. For example, where an
> anti-theistic attitude is to oppose (or "strongly reject" as you put
> it) the various mystical ideas presented in the theistic context, an
> atheist merely holds no position on such matters.
that's agnosticism not atheism, by popular definition.
> On Sat, 2 Feb 2013 18:53:49 -0800 (PST)
> Madame Monpetit <madamem...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> Assuming that anything was taught by a deity implicitly requires
> assuming that the deity existed in the capacity of being a teacher, but
> since atheism is the "absence of belief in dieites and supernatural
> agents," making such an assumption therefore excludes one from fitting
> the "atheist classification."
>
> Atheism: http://www.atheistfrontier.com/glossary/atheism.pl
>
> It's import to note a distinction about atheism that is often
> misunderstood -- some people regard atheism as being anti-theistic, but
> the reality is that they are very different. For example, where an
> anti-theistic attitude is to oppose (or "strongly reject" as you put
> it) the various mystical ideas presented in the theistic context, an
> atheist merely holds no position on such matters.
> One of the beauties of atheism is that there is no dogma, no
> expectation, no minimum or maximum intelligence level, no requirement
> to know history or math, in fact your neighbour's is almost certainly
> an atheist too.
actually object to it.
> Atheism isn't something one has to choose to be
> because the absence of belief can only be consumed by belief after
> first conceptualizing what it is that is to be believed in.
cognizance or consideration of the God concept. But by extension of that
argument we can logically conclude, and in fact assert, that inanimate
objects, such as trees, rocks, and even dog poo, are atheists! A
ridiculous notion! This has been discussed considerably here, and you
should read postings by fasgnadh, if you're interested, as he has posted
extensively about this claim.
IMO, and to put it in a nutshell, a person is not 'an atheist' unless
they claim to be one, and the more rational and sensible atheists will
agree with this.
The definition of theism, to wit:
the�ism (noun)
1. the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe,
without rejection of revelation ( distinguished from deism ).
2. belief in the existence of a god or gods ( opposed to atheism ).
is all about belief in God, so it follows that a-theism is without
belief in God, which implies that the concept of God needs to be
considered and rejected, which of course involves rational thought, and
so excludes the comatose, babies, inanimate objects, i.e. that which is
incapable of rational thought. If we don't accept that this is so, then
the computer I am using to post this is an atheist!
--
rgds,
Pete
-------
"If Julia is the answer, then what was the stupid question!"
�This election is about trust. The choice before the Australian people could not be clearer. It�s more tax or less. It�s more regulation or less. It�s less competence or more. It�s less freedom or more� - Tony Abbott, Federal Opposition Leader
Sept 14th. is National Rubbish Collection day.. ausnet.info/pics/rubbish_collection.jpg
Yap
Feb 3, 2013, 6:27:57 AM2/3/13
to
First of all, the dead Jesus (it was a name for many in the thousands
in ancient time) was a human of Jewish origin.
And conman who wrote some stories met their fools then.
The lying Christianity was born in the early centuries and remained
pathetic to this day.
raven1
Feb 3, 2013, 12:15:00 PM2/3/13
to
>I was just wondering if a person can be a Christian Atheist, that is
>someone who adopts the ethics and non-mystical teachings of Jesus,
>while denying that Jesus was a deity?. A Christian Atheist would be
>someone who does not believe in Jesus as the son of God strongly
>reject any theories of atonement. Furthermore, such a person would
>strongly reject the ideas of an afterlife, the power of prayer, the
>existence
>of a spirit/soul, the existence of Heaven/Hell, the existence of
>Angels/Demons,
>or any sort of self-awareness or consciousness beyond death.
Sounds like most Unitarians I know.
>someone who adopts the ethics and non-mystical teachings of Jesus,
>while denying that Jesus was a deity?. A Christian Atheist would be
>someone who does not believe in Jesus as the son of God strongly
>reject any theories of atonement. Furthermore, such a person would
>strongly reject the ideas of an afterlife, the power of prayer, the
>existence
>of a spirit/soul, the existence of Heaven/Hell, the existence of
>Angels/Demons,
>or any sort of self-awareness or consciousness beyond death.
---
raven1
aa # 1096
EAC Vice President (President in charge of vice)
BAAWA Knight
Bob Casanova
Feb 3, 2013, 12:16:26 PM2/3/13
to
On Sat, 2 Feb 2013 18:53:49 -0800 (PST), the following
appeared in sci.skeptic, posted by Madame Monpetit
<madamem...@gmail.com>:
>I was just wondering if a person can be a Christian Atheist, that is
>someone who adopts the ethics and non-mystical teachings of Jesus,
>while denying that Jesus was a deity?
One could have such characteristics, but that wouldn't make
him or her a Christian (or, for that matter, an atheist;
there are many religious believers who aren't
Judeo-Christians).
You're discussing morality and ethics, which aren't
restricted to any particular religious belief, including no
belief at all.
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
appeared in sci.skeptic, posted by Madame Monpetit
<madamem...@gmail.com>:
>I was just wondering if a person can be a Christian Atheist, that is
>someone who adopts the ethics and non-mystical teachings of Jesus,
>while denying that Jesus was a deity?
him or her a Christian (or, for that matter, an atheist;
there are many religious believers who aren't
Judeo-Christians).
You're discussing morality and ethics, which aren't
restricted to any particular religious belief, including no
belief at all.
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
Tantum Ergo
Feb 3, 2013, 12:58:15 PM2/3/13
to
On Feb 2, 9:53 pm, Madame Monpetit <madamemonpe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was just wondering if a person can be a Christian Atheist, that is
> someone who adopts the ethics and non-mystical teachings of Jesus,
> while denying that Jesus was a deity?. A Christian Atheist would be
> someone who does not believe in Jesus as the son of God strongly
> reject any theories of atonement. Furthermore, such a person would
> strongly reject the ideas of an afterlife, the power of prayer, the
> existence
> of a spirit/soul, the existence of Heaven/Hell, the existence of
> Angels/Demons,
> or any sort of self-awareness or consciousness beyond death.
>
Ask Thomas Jefferson. His Jesus was less than Buddha
> someone who adopts the ethics and non-mystical teachings of Jesus,
> while denying that Jesus was a deity?. A Christian Atheist would be
> someone who does not believe in Jesus as the son of God strongly
> reject any theories of atonement. Furthermore, such a person would
> strongly reject the ideas of an afterlife, the power of prayer, the
> existence
> of a spirit/soul, the existence of Heaven/Hell, the existence of
> Angels/Demons,
> or any sort of self-awareness or consciousness beyond death.
>
But he too is paying the price for misleading mankind.
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