Some clues for clueless atheists...

mur@.not

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Jan 5, 2014, 12:25:20 PM1/5/14

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A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism doesn't
involve any faith or any beliefs. Here are some clues showing the fact that it
does:
_________________________________________________________
2. atheist
A person who believes that there is no god. A person who rejects the validity of
religion as a concept and generally has more faith in science and logic.
. . .
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=atheist
��
_________________________________________________________
Atheism may or may not be a position of faith, depending on the type of atheism
. . .
A "strong" atheist is one who asserts that "there is no god." Strong atheism is
the form of atheism that most theists reference in debates, since most don't
know the distinction between strong and weak atheism. However, strong atheists
are rarer than most people think.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Atheism
��
_________________________________________________________
Strong atheism is the belief that there is no god.
. . .
http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/atheism/definitions.html
��
_________________________________________________________
Positive atheism (also called strong atheism and hard atheism) is the form of
atheism that asserts that no deities exist.
. . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism
��
_________________________________________________________
Strong atheism, also sometimes referred to as explicit atheism, goes one step
further and involves denying the existence of at least one god, usually multiple
gods, and sometimes the possible existence of any gods at all.
. . .
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/strong_weak.htm
��
_________________________________________________________
Some atheists go beyond a mere absence of belief in gods: they actively believe
that particular gods, or all gods, do not exist. Just lacking belief in Gods is
often referred to as the "weak atheist" position; whereas believing that gods do
not (or cannot) exist is known as "strong atheism."
. . .
http://infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/intro.html
��
_________________________________________________________
Strong atheism (sometimes called "positive atheism" by its adherents), is a type
of atheism that asserts the absolute doctrine that there are no gods. It is
different from weak atheism, in which the atheist claims only that there is
insufficient evidence that any god exists.
. . .
http://www.conservapedia.com/Strong_atheism
��
_________________________________________________________
Atheism - Defining the Terms
There are two basic forms of atheism: "strong" atheism and "weak" atheism.
Strong atheism is the doctrine that there is no God or gods.
. . .
http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/atheism.htm
��

grabber

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Jan 5, 2014, 1:03:36 PM1/5/14

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mur@.not wrote in message news:615jc9dnonhj6joop...@4ax.com...

> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism
> doesn't
> involve any faith or any beliefs. Here are some clues showing the fact
> that it
> does:
> _________________________________________________________
> 2. atheist
> A person who believes that there is no god. A person who rejects the
> validity of
> religion as a concept and generally has more faith in science and logic.
> . . .
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=atheist
> ��

One of the things you should be learning is that arguments over definitions
are rarely interesting.

If you must do it, you will find that urbandictionary.com, whilst
interesting is not widely regarded as authoritative in resolving disputes.

All the other sources you quote are about subdivisions of atheists, e.g.
"strong atheism" or "positive atheism".

It is not surprising that you get negative responses if you insist on
calling, say, strong atheism an atheist belief.

To see why, consider that some Christians believe that abortion is
permissible, whilst others don't. If you refer to "the Christian belief that
abortion is permissible", you will encounter disagreement (and likewise for
"the Christian belief that abortion is always wrong".)

If anything, the level of disagreement may be even higher for "the atheist
belief that God doesn't exist", because atheists are perhaps less likely to
see a belief that there is no God (even if they do believe this) as
intrinsic to their basic position of atheism, whilst many Christians who
object to abortion do, I think, see this as intrinsic to their Christianity.

The point is that individual atheists believe all kinds of things, but that
(at least by the definition of atheism that most of them wish to use), these
beliefs are not an intrinsic part of their basic atheist stance. This is why
they deny that there are any such thing as "atheist beliefs".

Hope this helps.

Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess

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Jan 5, 2014, 4:57:16 PM1/5/14

to

On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:25:20 -0500
mur@.not wrote:

> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism
> doesn't involve any faith or any beliefs. Here are some clues showing
> the fact that it does:
> _________________________________________________________
> 2. atheist
> A person who believes that there is no god. A person who rejects the
> validity of religion as a concept and generally has more faith in
> science and logic. . . .
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=atheist

> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

That's the definition of anti-theism. The official definition of
atheist is "absent of belief in deities," which just happens to be very
thoroughly supported by many credible high-quality references, here:

http://www.defineatheist.com/#atheist

If you don't like reading, there's also a link to an introductory
"logic" video (by QualiaSoup) included that provides an objective
explanation that the official definition of "atheism" explained on this
web site is correct.

> _________________________________________________________
> Atheism may or may not be a position of faith, depending on the type
> of atheism . . .
> A "strong" atheist is one who asserts that "there is no god." Strong
> atheism is the form of atheism that most theists reference in
> debates, since most don't know the distinction between strong and
> weak atheism. However, strong atheists are rarer than most people
> think.
>
> http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Atheism

> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

It's correct that atheism may or may not be a "position," but it is, at
the very least, a calssification.

If it's a by-product of anti-theism, or the impartial application of
skepticism, or an arbitrary choice (for any reason), then it certainly
can qualify as a position because there is a justification behind it
(whether that justification is correct is incidental).

If it's simply due to an "absence of belief" that isn't justified by
any reason whatsoever, then it's simply a harmless classification.

> _________________________________________________________
> Strong atheism is the belief that there is no god.
> . . .
> http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/atheism/definitions.html

> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

That's just a "politically correct" label for anti-theism, of which the
by-product is "atheism."

> _________________________________________________________
> Positive atheism (also called strong atheism and hard atheism) is the
> form of atheism that asserts that no deities exist.
> . . .
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism

> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

That's just a "politically correct" label for anti-theism, of which the
by-product is "atheism."

> _________________________________________________________
> Strong atheism, also sometimes referred to as explicit atheism, goes
> one step further and involves denying the existence of at least one
> god, usually multiple gods, and sometimes the possible existence of
> any gods at all. . . .
> http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/strong_weak.htm

> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

I don't consider "about.com" to be a reliable source of information
because they seem to try to be politically correct.

> _________________________________________________________
> Some atheists go beyond a mere absence of belief in gods: they
> actively believe that particular gods, or all gods, do not exist.
> Just lacking belief in Gods is often referred to as the "weak
> atheist" position; whereas believing that gods do not (or cannot)
> exist is known as "strong atheism." . . .
> http://infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/intro.html

> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

I'm very strong about my "absence of belief in deities" because I'm also
a skeptic, so calling me a "weak atheist" only adds confusion.

Those atheists who specifically oppose belief in deities by believing
the opposite (that no deities exist) are anti-theists.

> _________________________________________________________
> Strong atheism (sometimes called "positive atheism" by its
> adherents), is a type of atheism that asserts the absolute doctrine
> that there are no gods. It is different from weak atheism, in which
> the atheist claims only that there is insufficient evidence that any
> god exists. . . .
> http://www.conservapedia.com/Strong_atheism

> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

I don't consider "conservapedia.com" to be a reliable source of
information because they don't apply skepticism impartially. I highly
recommend "rationalwiki.com" as a more rational alternative.

> _________________________________________________________
> Atheism - Defining the Terms
> There are two basic forms of atheism: "strong" atheism and "weak"
> atheism. Strong atheism is the doctrine that there is no God or gods.
> . . .
> http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/atheism.htm

> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

That web page refers to a "doctrine" of atheism, but doesn't provide
any references to such atheist doctrine. Can you provide any such
references? I'm not aware of any "atheist doctrine" having ever been
published, but if someone was to present one I would like to read it.

--
Fidem Turbāre, the non-existent atheist goddess
"The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession."
-- Abraham Lincoln

%

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Jan 5, 2014, 5:12:01 PM1/5/14

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so you don't believe in something you don't believe exists , very good

Wizard-Of-Oz

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Jan 5, 2014, 8:10:09 PM1/5/14

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mur@.not wrote in news:615jc9dnonhj6joop...@4ax.com:

> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism
> doesn't
> involve any faith or any beliefs.

That's correct. All it is is the ABSENSE of a belief in gods.

What other beliefs a person may have (bsed on evidence of purely faith) is
totally irrelevant to whether or not they are atheist

> Here are some clues showing the fact
> that it does:
> _________________________________________________________
> 2. atheist
> A person who believes that there is no god.

Incorrect.

An atheist is someone who does not believe there is a god

That is DIFFERENT to someone who believes there there is no god (or gods)

Though many people hold both positions. They don't believe there are any
gods and so also do not hold the believe that there are. They have a
postion of "strong atheism" (that strength meaning in terms of logical
position, not in terms of correctness or strength with which they hold it
to be true).

Some are agnostic atheists, who don't hold a belief in a god because there
is no proof and they cannot know that there is a god is a god or not.

Some are agnostic theists, who do hold a belief in a god even though there
is no proof and they cannot actually know that there is a god or not.

Your ignorance of what atheism means is disturbing, but not at all
surprising given that you are almost certainly religious. Clearly facts
and logic are of less importance to you.

Wizard-Of-Oz

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Jan 5, 2014, 8:20:45 PM1/5/14

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"Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess"

<god...@fidemturbare.com> wrote in
news:20140105135716.7d72...@fidemturbare.com:

> On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:25:20 -0500
> mur@.not wrote:
>
>> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism
>> doesn't involve any faith or any beliefs. Here are some clues showing
>> the fact that it does:
>> _________________________________________________________
>> 2. atheist
>> A person who believes that there is no god. A person who rejects the
>> validity of religion as a concept and generally has more faith in
>> science and logic. . . .
>> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=atheist
>> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>
> That's the definition of anti-theism.

Anti-theism is usually those who are actively against the whole concept of
religion and religious beliefs, rather than not hold those beliefs
personally, Ones that think religion and religious belief is a negative
and is detrimental to society or individuals.

So perhaps anti-theism isn't quite the right term for someone who believes
there are no gods and rejects religion in favor of science and logic.

Irrelgious and a Huxley Agnostic would probably (and "logical" and
"scientific" and "sane" spring to mind) would summarise the second part of
the 'definition' above: of rejecting belief based on faith and instead
basing belief on science and logic and reason.

I'd probably characterise, say, Richard Dawkins as an agnostic atheist and
and anti-theist. Even though he admits one cannot know there is no god, he
does not believe that there is one, and he hold the opinion that religion
and religious beliefs are detrimental.

I'm not sure if there is a single-word terms for someone who believes that
there are no gods. ( other than "sensible" :P ).

The 'correct' term, if any, is 'strong atheist'

\

Wisely Non-Theist

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Jan 6, 2014, 2:15:01 AM1/6/14

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In article <XnsA2AD7BC94775Bso...@217.119.49.38>,

"Wizard-Of-Oz" <some...@over-the-rainbow.com> wrote:

> mur@.not wrote in news:615jc9dnonhj6joop...@4ax.com:
>
> > A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism
> > doesn't
> > involve any faith or any beliefs.
>
> That's correct. All it is is the ABSENSE of a belief in gods.

Beleif in gods is ab-senSe ( ab as a prefix means without)
but atheism is absenCe of belief.

>
> What other beliefs a person may have (bsed on evidence of purely faith) is
> totally irrelevant to whether or not they are atheist
>
> > Here are some clues showing the fact
> > that it does:
> > _________________________________________________________
> > 2. atheist
> > A person who believes that there is no god.
>
> Incorrect.
>
> An atheist is someone who does not believe there is a god
>
> That is DIFFERENT to someone who believes there there is no god (or gods)
>
> Though many people hold both positions. They don't believe there are any
> gods and so also do not hold the believe that there are. They have a
> postion of "strong atheism" (that strength meaning in terms of logical
> position, not in terms of correctness or strength with which they hold it
> to be true).

What you call "strong atheism"is also called anti-theism, as contrasted
with the non-theism called atheism.

raven1

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Jan 6, 2014, 8:32:39 AM1/6/14

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On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:25:20 -0500, mur@.not wrote:

> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism doesn't
>involve any faith or any beliefs.

You'd have to be clueless indeed to think that you get to tell
atheists what atheism entails.

duke

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Jan 7, 2014, 4:58:45 PM1/7/14

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On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 13:57:16 -0800, "Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist
goddess" <god...@fidemturbare.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:25:20 -0500
>mur@.not wrote:
>
>> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism
>> doesn't involve any faith or any beliefs. Here are some clues showing
>> the fact that it does:
>> _________________________________________________________
>> 2. atheist
>> A person who believes that there is no god. A person who rejects the
>> validity of religion as a concept and generally has more faith in
>> science and logic. . . .
>> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=atheist
>> ��
>
>That's the definition of anti-theism. The official definition of
>atheist is "absent of belief in deities," which just happens to be very
>thoroughly supported by many credible high-quality references, here:

Wrong:
Main Entry:athe�ism
Pronunciation:**-th*-*i-z*m
Function:noun
Etymology:Middle French ath*isme, from ath*e atheist, from Greek atheos godless,
from a- + theos god
Date:1546
1 archaic : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no

Disbelief is not the same as absence of belief. The key to atheism is that
there is NO GOD.

duke, American-American
*****
When Obama was elected, he said he couldn't be more
proud for this country. Now, after 5 years, we Americans
will never be more disgusted with the mess he as created.
*****

Wisely Non-Theist

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Jan 7, 2014, 9:16:44 PM1/7/14

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In article <h0uoc9tqnoo5ha5of...@4ax.com>,

duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 13:57:16 -0800, "Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist
> goddess" <god...@fidemturbare.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:25:20 -0500
> >mur@.not wrote:
> >
> >> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism
> >> doesn't involve any faith or any beliefs. Here are some clues showing
> >> the fact that it does:
> >> _________________________________________________________
> >> 2. atheist
> >> A person who believes that there is no god. A person who rejects the
> >> validity of religion as a concept and generally has more faith in
> >> science and logic. . . .
> >> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=atheist

> >> ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

> >
> >That's the definition of anti-theism. The official definition of
> >atheist is "absent of belief in deities," which just happens to be very
> >thoroughly supported by many credible high-quality references, here:
>
> Wrong:

> Main Entry:athe?ism

> Pronunciation:**-th*-*i-z*m
> Function:noun
> Etymology:Middle French ath*isme, from ath*e atheist, from Greek atheos
> godless,
> from a- + theos god
> Date:1546
> 1 archaic : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS
> 2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
>

> Disbelief is not the same as absence of belief. The key to atheism is that
> there is NO GOD.

WRONG! AS USUAL!

Proximity/Merriam-Webster U.S. English Thesaurus

1 meaning(s) for �disbelief�

1. (noun) the attitude or state of mind of one who does not believe
� (synonym) unbelief, incredulity, unbelievingness, unfaith
� (related) doubt, dubiety, dubiosity, skepticism, uncertainty,
distrust, mistrust, suspicion, apprehension, misgiving, qualm
� (contrast) assurance, certitude, security, trust, dependence,
reliance, stock, store
� (antonym) belief

Proximity/Franklin U.S. English Thesaurus

1 meaning(s) for �disbelief�

1. (noun) lack of belief
� (synonym) incredulity, incredulousness, skepticism
� (antonym) belief

>

Dreamer In Colore

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Jan 7, 2014, 10:04:54 PM1/7/14

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No matter how many times you're corrected on this, you still cling to
your silly definition?

That's sad, Dork.

Jeanne Douglas

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Jan 7, 2014, 10:18:22 PM1/7/14

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In article <81gpc9pphjbvv1olv...@4ax.com>,

I wonder why he's so disturbed by which word we use to describe
ourselves. Too bad he's too dishonest to answer that question because I
really am curious.

--

JD

"If our country is going broke, let it be from
feeding the poor and caring for the elderly.
And not from pampering the rich and fighting
wars for them."--Living Blue in a Red State (seen on Facebook)

Dreamer In Colore

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Jan 7, 2014, 11:58:00 PM1/7/14

to

He's not disturbed by the word choice. He thinks that by co-opting the
definition, he'll somehow point out some logic flaw. He's a confused
little troll, and doesn't understand the difference between knowledge
and belief... though he's conflated the two, he's too calcified to
understand why.

--
Cheers,
Dreamer
AA 2306

"The more stupid the man, the larger his stock of adamantine
assurances, the heavier his load of faith."

H.L. Mencken

Jeanne Douglas

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Jan 8, 2014, 12:27:28 AM1/8/14

to

In article <jimpc9h3592d4ibu5...@4ax.com>,

Okay, that makes sense. It'll definitely do until we get a sane answer
from poor poor dukie (no, of course, I'm not holding my breath).

mur@.not

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Jan 9, 2014, 10:46:37 PM1/9/14

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On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 18:03:36 -0000, "grabber" <g...@bb.er> wrote:

>
>
>mur@.not wrote in message news:615jc9dnonhj6joop...@4ax.com...
>
>> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism
>> doesn't
>> involve any faith or any beliefs. Here are some clues showing the fact
>> that it
>> does:
>> _________________________________________________________
>> 2. atheist
>> A person who believes that there is no god. A person who rejects the
>> validity of
>> religion as a concept and generally has more faith in science and logic.
>> . . .
>> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=atheist
>> ��
>
>One of the things you should be learning is that arguments over definitions
>are rarely interesting.
>
>If you must do it, you will find that urbandictionary.com, whilst
>interesting is not widely regarded as authoritative in resolving disputes.
>
>All the other sources you quote are about subdivisions of atheists, e.g.
>"strong atheism" or "positive atheism".
>
>It is not surprising that you get negative responses if you insist on
>calling, say, strong atheism an atheist belief.

Why do you think so many people are ashamed of the fact that it is one?

>To see why, consider that some Christians believe that abortion is
>permissible, whilst others don't. If you refer to "the Christian belief that
>abortion is permissible", you will encounter disagreement (and likewise for
>"the Christian belief that abortion is always wrong".)
>
>If anything, the level of disagreement may be even higher for "the atheist
>belief that God doesn't exist", because atheists are perhaps less likely to
>see a belief that there is no God (even if they do believe this) as
>intrinsic to their basic position of atheism, whilst many Christians who
>object to abortion do, I think, see this as intrinsic to their Christianity.

You're trying to compare apples and kangaroos. You would need to find
examples of supposed Christians who don't believe in Jesus opposing those who do
in order to have any respectable comparison.

>The point is that individual atheists believe all kinds of things, but that
>(at least by the definition of atheism that most of them wish to use), these
>beliefs are not an intrinsic part of their basic atheist stance. This is why
>they deny that there are any such thing as "atheist beliefs".
>
>Hope this helps.

Strong atheism is an atheist belief. The only thing in question is why some
atheists are so ashamed of the fact.

mur@.not

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Jan 9, 2014, 10:46:41 PM1/9/14

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On 6 Jan 2014 02:10:09 +0100, "Wizard-Of-Oz" <some...@over-the-rainbow.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:25:20 -0500, mur@.not wrote:
>
>> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism doesn't
>>involve any faith or any beliefs.
>
>That's correct. All it is is the ABSENSE of a belief in gods.

Not when it involves a belief in gods, even when those holding the belief
are ashamed of it and dishonest about it.

>What other beliefs a person may have (bsed on evidence of purely faith) is
>totally irrelevant to whether or not they are atheist

Believing there is no God is an atheist belief. Anyone who believes that is
an atheist. What makes you so ashamed of that fact, do you have any idea?

>>Here are some clues showing the fact that it
>>does:
>>_________________________________________________________
>>2. atheist

>Incorrect.
>
>An atheist is someone who does not believe there is a god
>
>That is DIFFERENT to someone who believes there there is no god (or gods)
>
>Though many people hold both positions. They don't believe there are any
>gods and so also do not hold the believe that there are. They have a
>postion of "strong atheism" (that strength meaning in terms of logical
>position, not in terms of correctness or strength with which they hold it
>to be true).

The amount of faith they have that their guess is correct is what determines
how strong an atheist they are or are not.

>Some are agnostic atheists, who don't hold a belief in a god because there
>is no proof and they cannot know that there is a god is a god or not.
>
>Some are agnostic theists, who do hold a belief in a god even though there
>is no proof and they cannot actually know that there is a god or not.
>
>Your ignorance of what atheism means is disturbing, but not at all
>surprising given that you are almost certainly religious. Clearly facts
>and logic are of less importance to you.

The fact that some atheists believe God doesn't exist is one that's
apparently of importance to you and makes you ashamed. Why though?

mur@.not

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Jan 9, 2014, 10:46:51 PM1/9/14

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On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 08:32:39 -0500, raven1 <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:25:20 -0500, mur@.not wrote:
>
>> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism doesn't

>You'd have to be clueless indeed to think that you get to tell
>atheists what atheism entails.

I not only tell them, I SHOW them using definitions from other people who do
have a clue.

mur@.not

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Jan 9, 2014, 10:46:58 PM1/9/14

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On 6 Jan 2014 02:20:45 +0100, "Wizard-Of-Oz" <some...@over-the-rainbow.com>
wrote:

>"Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess"
><god...@fidemturbare.com> wrote in
>news:20140105135716.7d72...@fidemturbare.com:
>
>> On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:25:20 -0500
>> mur@.not wrote:
>>
>>> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism
>>> doesn't involve any faith or any beliefs. Here are some clues showing
>>> the fact that it does:
>>> _________________________________________________________
>>> 2. atheist
>>> A person who believes that there is no god. A person who rejects the
>>> validity of religion as a concept and generally has more faith in
>>> science and logic. . . .
>>> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=atheist
>>> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>>> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>>
>> That's the definition of anti-theism.
>
>Anti-theism is usually those who are actively against the whole concept of
>religion and religious beliefs, rather than not hold those beliefs
>personally, Ones that think religion and religious belief is a negative
>and is detrimental to society or individuals.

All strong atheists are not necessarily anti-theists, and all anti-theists
are not necessarily strong atheists.

>So perhaps anti-theism isn't quite the right term for someone who believes
>there are no gods and rejects religion in favor of science and logic.
>
>Irrelgious and a Huxley Agnostic would probably (and "logical" and
>"scientific" and "sane" spring to mind) would summarise the second part of
>the 'definition' above: of rejecting belief based on faith and instead
>basing belief on science and logic and reason.
>
>I'd probably characterise, say, Richard Dawkins as an agnostic atheist and
>and anti-theist. Even though he admits one cannot know there is no god, he
>does not believe that there is one, and he hold the opinion that religion
>and religious beliefs are detrimental.
>
>I'm not sure if there is a single-word terms for someone who believes that
>there are no gods. ( other than "sensible" :P ).

Are you convinced there are no beings that can be considered Gods anywhere
in the universe, or just none associated with this planet, or star system, or
galaxy...?

>The 'correct' term, if any, is 'strong atheist'

That is the term used to refer to people who believe God or/and gods don't
exist. Why do you think so many atheists are ashamed of that fact?

mur@.not

unread,

Jan 9, 2014, 10:47:04 PM1/9/14

to

On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 13:57:16 -0800, "Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist
goddess" <god...@fidemturbare.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:25:20 -0500
>mur@.not wrote:
>
>> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism
>> doesn't involve any faith or any beliefs. Here are some clues showing
>> the fact that it does:
>> _________________________________________________________
>> 2. atheist
>> A person who believes that there is no god. A person who rejects the
>> validity of religion as a concept and generally has more faith in
>> science and logic. . . .
>> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=atheist
>> ��
>
>That's the definition of anti-theism. The official definition of
>atheist is "absent of belief in deities," which just happens to be very
>thoroughly supported by many credible high-quality references, here:
>
>http://www.defineatheist.com/#atheist
>
>If you don't like reading, there's also a link to an introductory
>"logic" video (by QualiaSoup) included that provides an objective
>explanation that the official definition of "atheism" explained on this
>web site is correct.

I provided plenty of correct definitions already.

>> _________________________________________________________
>> Atheism may or may not be a position of faith, depending on the type
>> of atheism . . .
>> A "strong" atheist is one who asserts that "there is no god." Strong
>> atheism is the form of atheism that most theists reference in
>> debates, since most don't know the distinction between strong and
>> weak atheism. However, strong atheists are rarer than most people
>> think.
>>
>> http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Atheism
>> ��
>
>It's correct that atheism may or may not be a "position," but it is, at
>the very least, a calssification.
>
>If it's a by-product of anti-theism, or the impartial application of
>skepticism, or an arbitrary choice (for any reason), then it certainly
>can qualify as a position because there is a justification behind it
>(whether that justification is correct is incidental).
>
>If it's simply due to an "absence of belief" that isn't justified by
>any reason whatsoever, then it's simply a harmless classification.

Strong atheism is a belief. Weak atheism is absence of belief. Amusingly,
most people I've encountered who clearly appear to believe there is no God
associated with this planet also appear to be desperately ashamed of that
belief. Not ashamed enough to try to provide any reason to believe they don't
have it however, which is even more amusing though also quite pitiful.

>> _________________________________________________________
>> Strong atheism is the belief that there is no god.
>> . . .
>> http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/atheism/definitions.html
>> ��
>
>That's just a "politically correct" label for anti-theism, of which the
>by-product is "atheism."

It defines strong atheism in a way that is common knowledge.

>> _________________________________________________________
>> Positive atheism (also called strong atheism and hard atheism) is the
>> form of atheism that asserts that no deities exist.
>> . . .
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism
>> ��
>
>That's just a "politically correct" label for anti-theism, of which the
>by-product is "atheism."

It defines strong atheism in a way that is common knowledge.

>> _________________________________________________________
>> Strong atheism, also sometimes referred to as explicit atheism, goes
>> one step further and involves denying the existence of at least one
>> god, usually multiple gods, and sometimes the possible existence of
>> any gods at all. . . .
>> http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/strong_weak.htm
>> ��
>
>I don't consider "about.com" to be a reliable source of information
>because they seem to try to be politically correct.

It defines strong atheism in a way that is common knowledge.

>> _________________________________________________________
>> Some atheists go beyond a mere absence of belief in gods: they
>> actively believe that particular gods, or all gods, do not exist.
>> Just lacking belief in Gods is often referred to as the "weak
>> atheist" position; whereas believing that gods do not (or cannot)
>> exist is known as "strong atheism." . . .
>> http://infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/intro.html
>> ��
>
>I'm very strong about my "absence of belief in deities" because I'm also
>a skeptic, so calling me a "weak atheist" only adds confusion.
>
>Those atheists who specifically oppose belief in deities by believing
>the opposite (that no deities exist) are anti-theists.

They are strong atheists. Not all strong atheists are necessarily
anti-theists, and not all anti-theists are necessarily strong atheists.

>> _________________________________________________________
>> Strong atheism (sometimes called "positive atheism" by its
>> adherents), is a type of atheism that asserts the absolute doctrine
>> that there are no gods. It is different from weak atheism, in which
>> the atheist claims only that there is insufficient evidence that any
>> god exists. . . .
>> http://www.conservapedia.com/Strong_atheism
>> ��
>
>I don't consider "conservapedia.com" to be a reliable source of
>information

It defines strong atheism in a way that is common knowledge.

>because they don't apply skepticism impartially.

I can't consider you to be a more reliable source of information.

>I highly recommend "rationalwiki.com" as a more rational alternative.
_________________________________________________________

"Strong atheism (sometimes equated with "theoretical atheism") makes an explicit
statement against the existence of gods. Strong atheists would disagree with
weak atheists about the inability to disprove the existence of gods."
. . .
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Strong_atheism#Theoretical
��

>> _________________________________________________________
>> Atheism - Defining the Terms
>> There are two basic forms of atheism: "strong" atheism and "weak"
>> atheism. Strong atheism is the doctrine that there is no God or gods.
>> . . .
>> http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/atheism.htm
>> ��
>
>That web page refers to a "doctrine" of atheism, but doesn't provide
>any references to such atheist doctrine. Can you provide any such
>references? I'm not aware of any "atheist doctrine" having ever been
>published, but if someone was to present one I would like to read it.

Try to get them to correct their "mistake". If you succeed I'll believe you
have a good point. If you don't succeed I'll accept that you don't.

mur@.not

unread,

Jan 9, 2014, 10:47:10 PM1/9/14

to

On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 22:04:54 -0500, Dreamer In Colore
<dreamer...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>No matter how many times you're corrected on this,

_________________________________________________________
2. atheist
A person who believes that there is no god. A person who rejects the validity of
religion as a concept and generally has more faith in science and logic.
. . .
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=atheist
��

_________________________________________________________
Atheism may or may not be a position of faith, depending on the type of atheism
. . .
A "strong" atheist is one who asserts that "there is no god." Strong atheism is
the form of atheism that most theists reference in debates, since most don't
know the distinction between strong and weak atheism. However, strong atheists
are rarer than most people think.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Atheism
��

_________________________________________________________
Strong atheism is the belief that there is no god.
. . .
http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/atheism/definitions.html
��

_________________________________________________________
Positive atheism (also called strong atheism and hard atheism) is the form of
atheism that asserts that no deities exist.
. . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism
��

_________________________________________________________
Strong atheism, also sometimes referred to as explicit atheism, goes one step
further and involves denying the existence of at least one god, usually multiple
gods, and sometimes the possible existence of any gods at all.
. . .
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/strong_weak.htm
��

_________________________________________________________
Some atheists go beyond a mere absence of belief in gods: they actively believe
that particular gods, or all gods, do not exist. Just lacking belief in Gods is
often referred to as the "weak atheist" position; whereas believing that gods do
not (or cannot) exist is known as "strong atheism."
. . .
http://infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/intro.html
��

_________________________________________________________
Strong atheism (sometimes called "positive atheism" by its adherents), is a type
of atheism that asserts the absolute doctrine that there are no gods. It is
different from weak atheism, in which the atheist claims only that there is
insufficient evidence that any god exists.
. . .
http://www.conservapedia.com/Strong_atheism
��

_________________________________________________________
Atheism - Defining the Terms
There are two basic forms of atheism: "strong" atheism and "weak" atheism.
Strong atheism is the doctrine that there is no God or gods.
. . .
http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/atheism.htm
��

>you still cling to your silly definition?
>
>That's sad, Dork.

Why are you people so horribly and desperately ...LOL... and HILARIOUSLY
ashamed that strong atheism involves a belief???

mur@.not

unread,

Jan 9, 2014, 10:47:15 PM1/9/14

to

On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 23:58:00 -0500, Dreamer In Colore
<dreamer...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>He's not disturbed by the word choice. He thinks that by co-opting the
>definition, he'll somehow point out some logic flaw. He's a confused
>little troll, and doesn't understand the difference between knowledge
>and belief...

Do you think you have knowledge that God doesn't exist? If so, how do you
think you could have possibly found out?

mur@.not

unread,

Jan 9, 2014, 10:47:21 PM1/9/14

to

On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 19:18:22 -0800, Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMgmail.com>
wrote:

>I wonder why he's so disturbed by which word we use to describe
>ourselves. Too bad he's too dishonest to answer that question because I
>really am curious.

For one thing he obviously is aware of the difference between strong and
weak atheism, AND is not ashamed of it. You people in contrast are either too
stupid to understand even though it's common knowledge for MOST people, or
you're dishonestly pretending not to understand. Why you are so horribly ashamed
of the belief associated with strong atheism is what's in question, not why
people sometimes point it out for you.

I'm not ashamed of my belief that no rabbit on Earth goes to millions of
people's homes bringing them Easter baskets. I'm not ashamed of my faith in that
being correct. I'm not ashamed of anyone else having faith that that's correct.
Why are you ashamed of other people's faith in that being correct? Let's start
with this example to see if you can get a clue, and then see if we can
eventually work you up to getting a clue why you're ashamed of it regarding God.

Wizard-Of-Oz

unread,

Jan 9, 2014, 11:41:12 PM1/9/14

to

mur@.not wrote in news:09ruc9tnbg5qgbt0u...@4ax.com:

> On 6 Jan 2014 02:10:09 +0100, "Wizard-Of-Oz"
> <some...@over-the-rainbow.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:25:20 -0500, mur@.not wrote:
>>
>>> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism
>>> doesn't
>>>involve any faith or any beliefs.
>>
>>That's correct. All it is is the ABSENSE of a belief in gods.
>
> Not when it involves a belief in gods,

It doesn't

> even when those holding the
> belief are ashamed of it and dishonest about it.

Who? Who are these closet theists that really believe in gods?

>>What other beliefs a person may have (bsed on evidence of purely
>>faith) is totally irrelevant to whether or not they are atheist
>
> Believing there is no God is an atheist belief. Anyone who
> believes that is an atheist.

That is true.

But not all atheists have that belief.

So it is not a belief that characterises all atheists

> What makes you so ashamed of that fact, do you have any
> idea?

I'm not ashamed of anything.

Why are you so determined to show yourself to be a moron?

No .. it isn't

You have no idea what you're babbling about

>>Some are agnostic atheists, who don't hold a belief in a god because
>>there is no proof and they cannot know that there is a god is a god or
>>not.
>>
>>Some are agnostic theists, who do hold a belief in a god even though
>>there is no proof and they cannot actually know that there is a god or
>>not.
>>
>>Your ignorance of what atheism means is disturbing, but not at all
>>surprising given that you are almost certainly religious. Clearly
>>facts and logic are of less importance to you.
>
> The fact that some atheists believe God doesn't exist

That's what I said

> is one that's apparently of importance to you and makes you
> ashamed.

No .. what one earth gave you that idea .. clearly you're a moron who
can't read

> Why though?

Why are you a moron? Perhaps your parents were morons? Are they
christian too? That's usually a good sign that they were morons.

Wizard-Of-Oz

unread,

Jan 9, 2014, 11:46:39 PM1/9/14

to

mur@.not wrote in news:f9ruc9pd9rmssd03h...@4ax.com:

> On 6 Jan 2014 02:20:45 +0100, "Wizard-Of-Oz"
> <some...@over-the-rainbow.com> wrote:
>
>>"Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess"
>><god...@fidemturbare.com> wrote in
>>news:20140105135716.7d72...@fidemturbare.com:
>>
>>> On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:25:20 -0500
>>> mur@.not wrote:
>>>
>>>> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that
>>>> atheism
>>>> doesn't involve any faith or any beliefs. Here are some clues
>>>> showing the fact that it does:
>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>> 2. atheist
>>>> A person who believes that there is no god. A person who rejects
>>>> the validity of religion as a concept and generally has more faith
>>>> in science and logic. . . .
>>>> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=atheist
>>>>
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>>>> ¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>>>
>>> That's the definition of anti-theism.
>>
>>Anti-theism is usually those who are actively against the whole
>>concept of religion and religious beliefs, rather than not hold those
>>beliefs personally, Ones that think religion and religious belief is
>>a negative and is detrimental to society or individuals.
>
> All strong atheists are not necessarily anti-theists,

That's what I said

> and all
> anti-theists are not necessarily strong atheists.

That's what I said

>>So perhaps anti-theism isn't quite the right term for someone who
>>believes there are no gods and rejects religion in favor of science
>>and logic.
>>
>>Irrelgious and a Huxley Agnostic would probably (and "logical" and
>>"scientific" and "sane" spring to mind) would summarise the second
>>part of the 'definition' above: of rejecting belief based on faith and
>>instead basing belief on science and logic and reason.
>>
>>I'd probably characterise, say, Richard Dawkins as an agnostic atheist
>>and and anti-theist. Even though he admits one cannot know there is
>>no god, he does not believe that there is one, and he hold the opinion
>>that religion and religious beliefs are detrimental.
>>
>>I'm not sure if there is a single-word terms for someone who believes
>>that there are no gods. ( other than "sensible" :P ).
>
> Are you convinced there are no beings that can be considered Gods
> anywhere in the universe,

Define what is meant be a "God". IF we can get an agreemend on the
defintiion, then if we ever come accross some being that satifies that
condition, we'll have found a god.

I doubt you will get agreement on what "God" means.

That's because its not something objective .. it is a subjective
opinion. It is a statement about the person believing and worshipping
rather than the supposed 'god'.

A god is whatever someone calls 'god' and worship. Its a label or
title.

If I don't worship anything as a god, then no god exists.

If you worship anything as a god, then whatever it is is a god ... but
then you have the further question of whether it exists (like the sun)
or if its just some superstition or abstract idea and not something that
physically exists.

> or just none associated with this planet, or star system,
> or galaxy...?
>
>>The 'correct' term, if any, is 'strong atheist'
>
> That is the term used to refer to people who believe God or/and
> gods don't exist.

That's what I said

Why do you just repeat what I said as though it was an argument against
me. That's just stupid.

> Why do you think so many atheists are ashamed of that fact?

They aren't

duke

unread,

Jan 10, 2014, 3:44:26 PM1/10/14

to

A disbelief means that there is no God to you - a rejection, a denial. What
drives your disbelief? What is your support for such a wacko idea?

>Proximity/Merriam-Webster U.S. English Thesaurus
>
>1 meaning(s) for �disbelief�
>1. (noun) the attitude or state of mind of one who does not believe
>� (synonym) unbelief, incredulity, unbelievingness, unfaith
>� (related) doubt, dubiety, dubiosity, skepticism, uncertainty,
>distrust, mistrust, suspicion, apprehension, misgiving, qualm
>� (contrast) assurance, certitude, security, trust, dependence,
>reliance, stock, store
>� (antonym) belief
>
>Proximity/Franklin U.S. English Thesaurus
>
>1 meaning(s) for �disbelief�
>
>1. (noun) lack of belief
>� (synonym) incredulity, incredulousness, skepticism
>� (antonym) belief
>
>>

duke

unread,

Jan 10, 2014, 3:45:52 PM1/10/14

to

To deny the existence of God is to say you don't believe in God. To find the
evidence unconvincing makes you an agnostic. Give me your evidence that drives
your denial/rejection.

>That's sad, Dork.

Yes you are.

duke

unread,

Jan 10, 2014, 3:46:52 PM1/10/14

to

On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 22:47:10 -0500, mur@.not wrote:

>On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 22:04:54 -0500, Dreamer In Colore
><dreamer...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>No matter how many times you're corrected on this,
>_________________________________________________________
>2. atheist
>A person who believes that there is no god. A person who rejects the validity of
>religion as a concept and generally has more faith in science and logic.

Exactly - NO God. Where is your evidence for such a stupid idea.

raven1

unread,

Jan 11, 2014, 12:08:44 PM1/11/14

to

On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 22:46:51 -0500, mur@.not wrote:

>>You'd have to be clueless indeed to think that you get to tell
>>atheists what atheism entails.
>
> I not only tell them, I SHOW them using definitions from other people who do
>have a clue.

<facepalm>

Dictionaries don't get to tell atheists what atheism entails either,
just as atheists don't get to tell you what *you* believe or don't
believe.

---
raven1
aa # 1096
EAC Vice President (President in charge of vice)
BAAWA Knight

mur@.not

unread,

Jan 12, 2014, 6:08:57 PM1/12/14

to

On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:46:52 -0600, duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 22:47:10 -0500, mur@.not wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 22:04:54 -0500, Dreamer In Colore
>><dreamer...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>No matter how many times you're corrected on this,
>>_________________________________________________________
>>2. atheist
>>A person who believes that there is no god. A person who rejects the validity of
>>religion as a concept and generally has more faith in science and logic.
>
>Exactly - NO God. Where is your evidence for such a stupid idea.

Why are they ashamed that the belief exists?

mur@.not

unread,

Jan 12, 2014, 6:09:15 PM1/12/14

to

On 10 Jan 2014 05:46:39 +0100, "Wizard-Of-Oz" <some...@over-the-rainbow.com>
wrote:

What part said that?

>> and all
>> anti-theists are not necessarily strong atheists.
>
>That's what I said

What part said that?

>>>So perhaps anti-theism isn't quite the right term for someone who
>>>believes there are no gods and rejects religion in favor of science
>>>and logic.
>>>
>>>Irrelgious and a Huxley Agnostic would probably (and "logical" and
>>>"scientific" and "sane" spring to mind) would summarise the second
>>>part of the 'definition' above: of rejecting belief based on faith and
>>>instead basing belief on science and logic and reason.
>>>
>>>I'd probably characterise, say, Richard Dawkins as an agnostic atheist
>>>and and anti-theist. Even though he admits one cannot know there is
>>>no god, he does not believe that there is one, and he hold the opinion
>>>that religion and religious beliefs are detrimental.
>>>
>>>I'm not sure if there is a single-word terms for someone who believes
>>>that there are no gods. ( other than "sensible" :P ).
>>
>> Are you convinced there are no beings that can be considered Gods
>> anywhere in the universe,
>
>Define what is meant be a "God". IF we can get an agreemend on the
>defintiion, then if we ever come accross some being that satifies that
>condition, we'll have found a god.
>
>I doubt you will get agreement on what "God" means.

Then YOU define it.

>That's because its not something objective .. it is a subjective
>opinion. It is a statement about the person believing and worshipping
>rather than the supposed 'god'.
>
>A god is whatever someone calls 'god' and worship. Its a label or
>title.
>
>If I don't worship anything as a god, then no god exists.
>
>If you worship anything as a god, then whatever it is is a god ... but
>then you have the further question of whether it exists (like the sun)
>or if its just some superstition or abstract idea and not something that
>physically exists.
>
>> or just none associated with this planet, or star system,
>> or galaxy...?
>>
>>>The 'correct' term, if any, is 'strong atheist'
>>
>> That is the term used to refer to people who believe God or/and
>> gods don't exist.
>
>That's what I said
>
>Why do you just repeat what I said as though it was an argument against
>me.

You consider agreeing with you to be an argument against you. Why?

mur@.not

unread,

Jan 12, 2014, 6:11:05 PM1/12/14

to

On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:08:44 -0500, raven1 <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote:
.

>On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 22:46:51 -0500, mur@.not wrote:
>

>>>You'd have to be clueless indeed to think that you get to tell
>>>atheists what atheism entails.
>>
>> I not only tell them, I SHOW them using definitions from other people who do
>>have a clue.
>
><facepalm>
>
>Dictionaries don't get to tell atheists what atheism entails either,

They describe a belief that you're apparently ashamed exists. Are you
ashamed of all beliefs that something doesn't exist? Are you ashamed of the
belief that Santa Clause doesn't exist? Are you ashamed of the belief that
Bigfoot doesn't exist? Are you ashamed of the belief that no extraterrestrial
beings have been to this planet? Or are you only ashamed of the strong atheistic
belief? Why are you ashamed of that one, do you have any idea?

>just as atheists don't get to tell you what *you* believe or don't
>believe.

They try to. They can certainly say that Christianity is the belief that
Jesus existed and did what the Bible tells us he did, just as Christians can
point out that strong atheism is the belief that God doesn't exist. It doesn't
mean they're making it up, especially since they're not, but they can point out
what the meaning is.

mur@.not

unread,

Jan 12, 2014, 6:10:59 PM1/12/14

to

On 10 Jan 2014 05:41:12 +0100, "Wizard-Of-Oz" <some...@over-the-rainbow.com>
wrote:
.

>mur@.not wrote in news:09ruc9tnbg5qgbt0u...@4ax.com:
>
>> On 6 Jan 2014 02:10:09 +0100, "Wizard-Of-Oz"
>> <some...@over-the-rainbow.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:25:20 -0500, mur@.not wrote:
>>>
>>>> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism
>>>> doesn't
>>>>involve any faith or any beliefs.
>>>
>>>That's correct. All it is is the ABSENSE of a belief in gods.
>>
>> Not when it involves a belief in gods,
>
>It doesn't

Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it does.

>> even when those holding the
>> belief are ashamed of it and dishonest about it.
>
>Who? Who are these closet theists that really believe in gods?
>
>>>What other beliefs a person may have (bsed on evidence of purely
>>>faith) is totally irrelevant to whether or not they are atheist
>>
>> Believing there is no God is an atheist belief. Anyone who
>> believes that is an atheist.
>
>That is true.
>
>But not all atheists have that belief.
>
>So it is not a belief that characterises all atheists

I've never said it does.

>> What makes you so ashamed of that fact, do you have any
>> idea?
>
>I'm not ashamed of anything.
>
>Why are you so determined to show yourself to be a moron?

Why are you?

What I pointed out is obvious and true.

>>>Some are agnostic atheists, who don't hold a belief in a god because
>>>there is no proof and they cannot know that there is a god is a god or
>>>not.
>>>
>>>Some are agnostic theists, who do hold a belief in a god even though
>>>there is no proof and they cannot actually know that there is a god or
>>>not.
>>>
>>>Your ignorance of what atheism means is disturbing, but not at all
>>>surprising given that you are almost certainly religious. Clearly
>>>facts and logic are of less importance to you.
>>
>> The fact that some atheists believe God doesn't exist
>
>That's what I said
>
>> is one that's apparently of importance to you and makes you
>> ashamed.
>
>No .. what one earth gave you that idea ..

"All it is is the ABSENSE of a belief in gods." - "Wizard-Of-Oz"

felix_unger

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Jan 12, 2014, 7:21:06 PM1/12/14

to

Because to admit to believing that God does not exist, is to them
accepting the possibility that God may exist or does exist

--
rgds,

Pete
-------
ï¿½People sleep peacefully in their beds only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalfï¿½

felix_unger

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Jan 12, 2014, 7:33:07 PM1/12/14

to

On 13-January-2014 10:09 AM, mur@.not wrote:
> On 10 Jan 2014 05:46:39 +0100, "Wizard-Of-Oz" <some...@over-the-rainbow.com>
> wrote:
>
>> mur@.not wrote in news:f9ruc9pd9rmssd03h...@4ax.com:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

>>> Are you convinced there are no beings that can be considered Gods
>>> anywhere in the universe,

>> Define what is meant by a "God". IF we can get an agreement on the

>> defintiion, then if we ever come accross some being that satifies that
>> condition, we'll have found a god.
>>
>> I doubt you will get agreement on what "God" means.
> Then YOU define it.

Just pick up any good dictionary! Personally, I like to think of God
(assuming the existence of God) as being some sort of all pervasive
force or energy that permeates all of existence in some way, and people
can 'connect' with, rather than as some sort of being or entity.

felix_unger

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Jan 12, 2014, 7:52:46 PM1/12/14

to

On 13-January-2014 10:11 AM, mur@.not wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:08:44 -0500, raven1 <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote:

> ..

>> On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 22:46:51 -0500, mur@.not wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 08:32:39 -0500, raven1 <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:25:20 -0500, mur@.not wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism doesn't
>>>>> involve any faith or any beliefs. Here are some clues showing the fact that it
>>>>> does:
>>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>>> 2. atheist
>>>>> A person who believes that there is no god. A person who rejects the validity of
>>>>> religion as a concept and generally has more faith in science and logic.
>>>>> . . .
>>>>> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=atheist

>>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>>> Atheism may or may not be a position of faith, depending on the type of atheism
>>>>> . . .
>>>>> A "strong" atheist is one who asserts that "there is no god." Strong atheism is
>>>>> the form of atheism that most theists reference in debates, since most don't
>>>>> know the distinction between strong and weak atheism. However, strong atheists
>>>>> are rarer than most people think.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Atheism

>>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>>> Strong atheism is the belief that there is no god.
>>>>> . . .
>>>>> http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/atheism/definitions.html

>>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>>> Positive atheism (also called strong atheism and hard atheism) is the form of
>>>>> atheism that asserts that no deities exist.
>>>>> . . .
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism

>>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>>> Strong atheism, also sometimes referred to as explicit atheism, goes one step
>>>>> further and involves denying the existence of at least one god, usually multiple
>>>>> gods, and sometimes the possible existence of any gods at all.
>>>>> . . .
>>>>> http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/strong_weak.htm

>>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>>> Some atheists go beyond a mere absence of belief in gods: they actively believe
>>>>> that particular gods, or all gods, do not exist. Just lacking belief in Gods is
>>>>> often referred to as the "weak atheist" position; whereas believing that gods do
>>>>> not (or cannot) exist is known as "strong atheism."
>>>>> . . .
>>>>> http://infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/intro.html

>>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>>> Strong atheism (sometimes called "positive atheism" by its adherents), is a type
>>>>> of atheism that asserts the absolute doctrine that there are no gods. It is
>>>>> different from weak atheism, in which the atheist claims only that there is
>>>>> insufficient evidence that any god exists.
>>>>> . . .
>>>>> http://www.conservapedia.com/Strong_atheism

>>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>>> Atheism - Defining the Terms
>>>>> There are two basic forms of atheism: "strong" atheism and "weak" atheism.
>>>>> Strong atheism is the doctrine that there is no God or gods.
>>>>> . . .
>>>>> http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/atheism.htm

>>>> You'd have to be clueless indeed to think that you get to tell
>>>> atheists what atheism entails.
>>> I not only tell them, I SHOW them using definitions from other people who do
>>> have a clue.
>> <facepalm>
>>
>> Dictionaries don't get to tell atheists what atheism entails either,
> They describe a belief that you're apparently ashamed exists. Are you
> ashamed of all beliefs that something doesn't exist? Are you ashamed of the
> belief that Santa Clause doesn't exist? Are you ashamed of the belief that
> Bigfoot doesn't exist? Are you ashamed of the belief that no extraterrestrial
> beings have been to this planet? Or are you only ashamed of the strong atheistic
> belief? Why are you ashamed of that one, do you have any idea?

yes. it's interesting that ppl can get so upset by the idea that God
exists, but no one wants to rant and rave and call ppl a liar, and
denigrate and insult them, for saying they believe in those other things.

>
>> just as atheists don't get to tell you what *you* believe or don't
>> believe.
> They try to. They can certainly say that Christianity is the belief that
> Jesus existed and did what the Bible tells us he did, just as Christians can
> point out that strong atheism is the belief that God doesn't exist. It doesn't
> mean they're making it up, especially since they're not, but they can point out
> what the meaning is.

It's just plain silly for atheists to suggest that no-one can have an
opinion or belief about atheism, and express it, other than atheists.

linuxgal

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Jan 12, 2014, 8:46:21 PM1/12/14

to

felix_unger wrote:

> Because to admit to believing that God does not exist, is to them
> accepting the possibility that God may exist or does exist

Atheists don't "believe" that God does not exist, we understand that the
God defined by the Abrahamic religions is a contradiction, and
contradictions are not found in nature.

--
Need a spiritual home? Consider joining us at Mary Queen of the Universe
Latter-day Buddhislamic Free Will Christian UFO Synagogue of Vishnu

http://www.cleanposts.com

felix_unger

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Jan 12, 2014, 9:18:34 PM1/12/14

to

On 13-January-2014 12:46 PM, linuxgal wrote:
> felix_unger wrote:
>
>> Because to admit to believing that God does not exist, is to them
>> accepting the possibility that God may exist or does exist
>
> Atheists don't "believe" that God does not exist, we understand that
> the God defined by the Abrahamic religions is a contradiction, and
> contradictions are not found in nature.
>

so you believe it doesn't exist! why go to such pains to try to avoid
stating the bleeding obvious?

Wizard-Of-Oz

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Jan 13, 2014, 8:08:19 AM1/13/14

to

mur@.not wrote in news:f486d9tgult3i6iv7...@4ax.com:

Try reading what I wrote

>>> and all
>>> anti-theists are not necessarily strong atheists.
>>
>>That's what I said
>
> What part said that?

Try reading what I wrote

>>>>So perhaps anti-theism isn't quite the right term for someone who
>>>>believes there are no gods and rejects religion in favor of science
>>>>and logic.
>>>>
>>>>Irrelgious and a Huxley Agnostic would probably (and "logical" and
>>>>"scientific" and "sane" spring to mind) would summarise the second
>>>>part of the 'definition' above: of rejecting belief based on faith
>>>>and instead basing belief on science and logic and reason.
>>>>
>>>>I'd probably characterise, say, Richard Dawkins as an agnostic
>>>>atheist and and anti-theist. Even though he admits one cannot know
>>>>there is no god, he does not believe that there is one, and he hold
>>>>the opinion that religion and religious beliefs are detrimental.
>>>>
>>>>I'm not sure if there is a single-word terms for someone who
>>>>believes that there are no gods. ( other than "sensible" :P ).
>>>
>>> Are you convinced there are no beings that can be considered
>>> Gods anywhere in the universe,
>>
>>Define what is meant be a "God". IF we can get an agreemend on the
>>defintiion, then if we ever come accross some being that satifies that
>>condition, we'll have found a god.
>>
>>I doubt you will get agreement on what "God" means.
>
> Then YOU define it.

You are the one talking about beings being gods. Its up to you to
define it.

And if it is different to how I. of someone else defines it, then there
is the problem I described ... how do we know OBJECTIVELY that something
is a god.

And I did define it .. right here:

>>That's because its not something objective .. it is a subjective
>>opinion. It is a statement about the person believing and worshipping
>>rather than the supposed 'god'.
>>
>>A god is whatever someone calls 'god' and worship. Its a label or
>>title.
>>
>>If I don't worship anything as a god, then no god exists.
>>
>>If you worship anything as a god, then whatever it is is a god ... but
>>then you have the further question of whether it exists (like the sun)
>>or if its just some superstition or abstract idea and not something
>>that physically exists.
>>
>>> or just none associated with this planet, or star system,
>>> or galaxy...?
>>>
>>>>The 'correct' term, if any, is 'strong atheist'
>>>
>>> That is the term used to refer to people who believe God or/and
>>> gods don't exist.
>>
>>That's what I said
>>
>>Why do you just repeat what I said as though it was an argument
>>against me.
>
> You consider agreeing with you to be an argument against you. Why?

Because that is how you present it.

Wizard-Of-Oz

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Jan 13, 2014, 8:14:49 AM1/13/14

to

mur@.not wrote in news:v786d91d7gleve4qj...@4ax.com:

> On 10 Jan 2014 05:41:12 +0100, "Wizard-Of-Oz"
> <some...@over-the-rainbow.com> wrote:
> .
>>mur@.not wrote in news:09ruc9tnbg5qgbt0u...@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On 6 Jan 2014 02:10:09 +0100, "Wizard-Of-Oz"
>>> <some...@over-the-rainbow.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:25:20 -0500, mur@.not wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that
>>>>> atheism doesn't
>>>>>involve any faith or any beliefs.
>>>>
>>>>That's correct. All it is is the ABSENSE of a belief in gods.
>>>
>>> Not when it involves a belief in gods,
>>
>>It doesn't
>
> Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it does.

No .. it never does. By definition

>>> even when those holding the
>>> belief are ashamed of it and dishonest about it.
>>
>>Who? Who are these closet theists that really believe in gods?

No answer

>>>>What other beliefs a person may have (bsed on evidence of purely
>>>>faith) is totally irrelevant to whether or not they are atheist
>>>
>>> Believing there is no God is an atheist belief. Anyone who
>>> believes that is an atheist.
>>
>>That is true.
>>
>>But not all atheists have that belief.
>>
>>So it is not a belief that characterises all atheists
>
> I've never said it does.

Good.

>>> What makes you so ashamed of that fact, do you have any
>>> idea?
>>
>>I'm not ashamed of anything.
>>
>>Why are you so determined to show yourself to be a moron?
>
> Why are you?

I'm not

I'm just showing that you are.

>>You have no idea what you're babbling about
>
> What I pointed out is obvious and true.

No, its false. A "strong atheist" is someone whose postion is that of
"strong atheism" which is holding it to be true that there are no gods.

There are no different levels of strength in that term.

>>>>Some are agnostic atheists, who don't hold a belief in a god because
>>>>there is no proof and they cannot know that there is a god is a god
>>>>or not.
>>>>
>>>>Some are agnostic theists, who do hold a belief in a god even though
>>>>there is no proof and they cannot actually know that there is a god
>>>>or not.
>>>>
>>>>Your ignorance of what atheism means is disturbing, but not at all
>>>>surprising given that you are almost certainly religious. Clearly
>>>>facts and logic are of less importance to you.
>>>
>>> The fact that some atheists believe God doesn't exist
>>
>>That's what I said
>>
>>> is one that's apparently of importance to you and makes you
>>> ashamed.
>>
>>No .. what one earth gave you that idea ..
>
> "All it is is the ABSENSE of a belief in gods." - "Wizard-Of-Oz"

That's correct.

So what gives you the idea that that makes me ashamed? What do you
think in your warped little brain that I am supposedly ashamed of?

duke

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Jan 14, 2014, 4:19:46 PM1/14/14

to

Ask them.

duke, American-American
*****
The Obama Adminstration is a disgrace to America
and Americans. The lies, the lies, the lies.
*****

duke

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Jan 14, 2014, 4:21:05 PM1/14/14

to

On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 17:46:21 -0800, linuxgal <linu...@cleanposts.com> wrote:

>felix_unger wrote:
>
>> Because to admit to believing that God does not exist, is to them
>> accepting the possibility that God may exist or does exist
>
>Atheists don't "believe" that God does not exist

Oh, yes you do. And that makes you just an agnostic.

> we understand that the
>God defined by the Abrahamic religions is a contradiction, and
>contradictions are not found in nature.

Queers are a contradiction.

Wisely Non-Theist

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Jan 14, 2014, 6:01:08 PM1/14/14

to

In article <fgabd9h40gc9uoj9s...@4ax.com>,

duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 17:46:21 -0800, linuxgal <linu...@cleanposts.com> wrote:
> >felix_unger wrote:
> >

> >Atheists don't "believe" that God does not exist
> Oh, yes you do.

So now duckgumbo is a mind reader?

Just don't buy any of duckgumbo's offerings,
they all turn out to be gold bricks or Brooklyn Bridges

felix_unger

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Jan 14, 2014, 8:23:30 PM1/14/14

to

On 15-January-2014 8:19 AM, duke wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 18:08:57 -0500, mur@.not wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:46:52 -0600, duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 22:47:10 -0500, mur@.not wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 22:04:54 -0500, Dreamer In Colore
>>>> <dreamer...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No matter how many times you're corrected on this,
>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>> 2. atheist
>>>> A person who believes that there is no god. A person who rejects the validity of
>>>> religion as a concept and generally has more faith in science and logic.
>>> Exactly - NO God. Where is your evidence for such a stupid idea.
>> Why are they ashamed that the belief exists?
> Ask them.

they'll just call it a lie

>
> duke, American-American
> *****
> The Obama Adminstration is a disgrace to America
> and Americans. The lies, the lies, the lies.
> *****

mur@.not

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Jan 26, 2014, 4:28:13 PM1/26/14

to

On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 11:52:46 +1100, felix_unger <m...@nothere.biz> wrote:
.

>On 13-January-2014 10:11 AM, mur@.not wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:08:44 -0500, raven1 <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote:
>> ..
>>> On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 22:46:51 -0500, mur@.not wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 08:32:39 -0500, raven1 <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:25:20 -0500, mur@.not wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that atheism doesn't
>>>>>> involve any faith or any beliefs. Here are some clues showing the fact that it
>>>>>> does:
>>>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>>>> 2. atheist
>>>>>> A person who believes that there is no god. A person who rejects the validity of
>>>>>> religion as a concept and generally has more faith in science and logic.
>>>>>> . . .
>>>>>> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=atheist

>>>>>> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

>>>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Atheism may or may not be a position of faith, depending on the type of atheism
>>>>>> . . .
>>>>>> A "strong" atheist is one who asserts that "there is no god." Strong atheism is
>>>>>> the form of atheism that most theists reference in debates, since most don't
>>>>>> know the distinction between strong and weak atheism. However, strong atheists
>>>>>> are rarer than most people think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Atheism

>>>>>> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

>>>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Strong atheism is the belief that there is no god.
>>>>>> . . .
>>>>>> http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/atheism/definitions.html

>>>>>> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

>>>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Positive atheism (also called strong atheism and hard atheism) is the form of
>>>>>> atheism that asserts that no deities exist.
>>>>>> . . .
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism

>>>>>> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

>>>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Strong atheism, also sometimes referred to as explicit atheism, goes one step
>>>>>> further and involves denying the existence of at least one god, usually multiple
>>>>>> gods, and sometimes the possible existence of any gods at all.
>>>>>> . . .
>>>>>> http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/strong_weak.htm

>>>>>> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

>>>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Some atheists go beyond a mere absence of belief in gods: they actively believe
>>>>>> that particular gods, or all gods, do not exist. Just lacking belief in Gods is
>>>>>> often referred to as the "weak atheist" position; whereas believing that gods do
>>>>>> not (or cannot) exist is known as "strong atheism."
>>>>>> . . .
>>>>>> http://infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/intro.html

>>>>>> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

>>>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Strong atheism (sometimes called "positive atheism" by its adherents), is a type
>>>>>> of atheism that asserts the absolute doctrine that there are no gods. It is
>>>>>> different from weak atheism, in which the atheist claims only that there is
>>>>>> insufficient evidence that any god exists.
>>>>>> . . .
>>>>>> http://www.conservapedia.com/Strong_atheism

>>>>>> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

>>>>>> _________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Atheism - Defining the Terms
>>>>>> There are two basic forms of atheism: "strong" atheism and "weak" atheism.
>>>>>> Strong atheism is the doctrine that there is no God or gods.
>>>>>> . . .
>>>>>> http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/atheism.htm

>>>>>> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

>>>>> You'd have to be clueless indeed to think that you get to tell
>>>>> atheists what atheism entails.
>>>> I not only tell them, I SHOW them using definitions from other people who do
>>>> have a clue.
>>> <facepalm>
>>>
>>> Dictionaries don't get to tell atheists what atheism entails either,
>> They describe a belief that you're apparently ashamed exists. Are you
>> ashamed of all beliefs that something doesn't exist? Are you ashamed of the
>> belief that Santa Clause doesn't exist? Are you ashamed of the belief that
>> Bigfoot doesn't exist? Are you ashamed of the belief that no extraterrestrial
>> beings have been to this planet? Or are you only ashamed of the strong atheistic
>> belief? Why are you ashamed of that one, do you have any idea?
>
>yes. it's interesting that ppl can get so upset by the idea that God
>exists, but no one wants to rant and rave and call ppl a liar, and
>denigrate and insult them, for saying they believe in those other things.

True. What I'm trying to find out though, is if they're as ashamed of their
beliefs that those other things don't exist as they are of their belief that God

doesn't exist.

>>> just as atheists don't get to tell you what *you* believe or don't
>>> believe.
>> They try to. They can certainly say that Christianity is the belief that
>> Jesus existed and did what the Bible tells us he did, just as Christians can
>> point out that strong atheism is the belief that God doesn't exist. It doesn't
>> mean they're making it up, especially since they're not, but they can point out
>> what the meaning is.
>
>It's just plain silly for atheists to suggest that no-one can have an
>opinion or belief about atheism, and express it, other than atheists.

Yes, silly bordering on a sort of insanity. That, their denial that strong
atheism exists, and their shame of their own beliefs are all extremely absurd
seeming positions it seems no adult humans should get themselves into from my
pov. The idiocy of them actually being in those positions seems like evidence of
God's existence imo. Not so much as it seems like influence on their minds from
God, but from the other guy...the beast.

mur@.not

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Jan 26, 2014, 4:28:17 PM1/26/14

to

On 13 Jan 2014 14:14:49 +0100, "Wizard-Of-Oz" <some...@over-the-rainbow.com>

wrote:
.
>mur@.not wrote in news:v786d91d7gleve4qj...@4ax.com:
>
>> On 10 Jan 2014 05:41:12 +0100, "Wizard-Of-Oz"
>> <some...@over-the-rainbow.com> wrote:
>> .
>>>mur@.not wrote in news:09ruc9tnbg5qgbt0u...@4ax.com:
>>>
>>>> On 6 Jan 2014 02:10:09 +0100, "Wizard-Of-Oz"
>>>> <some...@over-the-rainbow.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:25:20 -0500, mur@.not wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A number of clueless atheists have tried to pretend that
>>>>>> atheism doesn't
>>>>>>involve any faith or any beliefs.
>>>>>
>>>>>That's correct. All it is is the ABSENSE of a belief in gods.
>>>>
>>>> Not when it involves a belief in gods,
>>>
>>>It doesn't
>>
>> Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it does.
>
>No .. it never does.

_________________________________________________________
Positive atheism (also called strong atheism and hard atheism) is the form of
atheism that asserts that no deities exist.
. . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism

ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>By definition

I find it hard to believe you're really that clueless. Even harder is trying
to imagine why you people are so horribly and desperately ashamed of the
defintion of strong atheism. All I can figure is that you're ashamed of your own
faith that God doesn't exist. That's the number one thing. You want to pretend
you're open minded enough to consider some of the endless possible ways in which
he could exist, but you can't do it and can't even pretend to. You also want to
feel superior and acknowledging that having no belief, which is not the case
with you anyway, is known as WEAK atheism makes you afraid you might seem
inferior even though that term doesn't have shit to do with superiority. You
like to pretend you have no belief so you can't be associated with any faith
including your own faith that God doesn't exist, and don't want to acknowledge
that strong atheism exists because you're afraid it would make you appear
inferior. That's all I can figure for the cause of your horrible shame and
desperation.

As far as your supposed superiority...LOL...the concept is hilarious. For
one thing just your inability to consider ANY of the countless ways in which God
could exist makes you inferior to anyone else who can. For another, your shame
and denial of what strong atheism IS makes you inferior to anyone who doesn't
have any problem comprehending and acknowledging it. And for another, your shame
of your own faith that God doesn't exist makes you inferior to anyone else who
is not ashamed of things they believe.

>>>> even when those holding the
>>>> belief are ashamed of it and dishonest about it.
>>>
>>>Who? Who are these closet theists that really believe in gods?
>
>No answer

What the hell do you think you're trying to talk about with that, do you

have any idea?

>>>>>What other beliefs a person may have (bsed on evidence of purely
>>>>>faith) is totally irrelevant to whether or not they are atheist
>>>>
>>>> Believing there is no God is an atheist belief. Anyone who
>>>> believes that is an atheist.
>>>
>>>That is true.
>>>
>>>But not all atheists have that belief.
>>>
>>>So it is not a belief that characterises all atheists
>>
>> I've never said it does.
>
>Good.
>
>>>> What makes you so ashamed of that fact, do you have any
>>>> idea?
>>>
>>>I'm not ashamed of anything.
>>>
>>>Why are you so determined to show yourself to be a moron?
>>
>> Why are you?
>
>I'm not

Then you've done it by accident.

>>>>>>Here are some clues showing the fact that it
>>>>>>does:
>>>>>>_________________________________________________________
>>>>>>2. atheist
>>>>>>A person who believes that there is no god. A person who rejects
>>>>>>the validity of religion as a concept and generally has more faith
>>>>>>in science and logic. . . .
>>>>>>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=atheist