Minority Voters Still Facing GOP Intimidation
Gandalf Grey
Minority Voters Still Facing Intimidation, Report Finds
From Reuters
August 26, 2004
WASHINGTON - Voter intimidation, particularly of minorities, continues to be
a problem in some states, according to a report released Wednesday.
"Minority voters bear the brunt of every form of disenfranchisement,
including pernicious efforts to keep them away from the polls," said Julian
Bond, board chairman of the National Assn. for the Advancement of Colored
People.
The report, by the NAACP and People for the American Way Foundation, reveals
that the types of voter intimidation found in the past - discriminatory
literacy tests, poll taxes and physical violence - have been supplanted by
other methods, including:
. A plan in Kentucky to place "vote challengers" in African American
precincts during the upcoming elections;
. The use of armed, plainclothes officers from the Florida Department of
Law Enforcement to question elderly black voters in Orlando as part of a
state investigation of voting irregularities in the city's 2003 mayoral
race.
. The barring of Native Americans from voting in South Dakota's June
primary after they were challenged to provide photo identification, which is
not required by state or federal law.
In a separate development, the AFL-CIO said it would watch for any attempt
to reprise voting rights violations that marred the 2000 election.
Voting irregularities in Florida threw the presidential contest four years
ago into a muddle that was decided by the U.S. Supreme Court.
"We're particularly concerned about treatment of African Americans, Latino,
Asian American and Native American voters, who were disproportionately
disenfranchised in the 2000 federal elections," AFL-CIO spokeswoman Cecelie
Counts said.
--
--
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"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so
long as I'm the dictator." - GW Bush 12/18/2000.
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop
thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do
we."
--George Bush. Aug. 5th., 2004
"Because America is powerful, we must be sensitive about
expressing our power and influence."
---George Bush, 3/4/01
T.Carr
> http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-voters26aug26,1,7172490.story?coll=la-headlines-nation
>
> Minority Voters Still Facing Intimidation, Report Finds
> From Reuters
>
> August 26, 2004
>
> WASHINGTON - Voter intimidation, particularly of minorities, continues to be
> a problem in some states, according to a report released Wednesday.
>
> "Minority voters bear the brunt of every form of disenfranchisement,
> including pernicious efforts to keep them away from the polls," said Julian
> Bond, board chairman of the National Assn. for the Advancement of Colored
> People.
You mean the same group that ran the attack ads linking george Bush
to the James Byrd lyncing is now claiming some kind of "bias?
>
> The report, by the NAACP and People for the American Way Foundation, reveals
> that the types of voter intimidation found in the past - discriminatory
> literacy tests, poll taxes and physical violence - have been supplanted by
> other methods, including:
>
> . A plan in Kentucky to place "vote challengers" in African American
> precincts during the upcoming elections;
You mean in 'dem majority precints?
>
> . The use of armed, plainclothes officers from the Florida Department of
> Law Enforcement to question elderly black voters in Orlando as part of a
> state investigation of voting irregularities in the city's 2003 mayoral
> race.
I guess frauds ok to the 'dems?
>
> . The barring of Native Americans from voting in South Dakota's June
> primary after they were challenged to provide photo identification, which is
> not required by state or federal law.
>
> In a separate development, the AFL-CIO said it would watch for any attempt
> to reprise voting rights violations that marred the 2000 election.
Union thugs wanting to clean up elections?
>
> Voting irregularities in Florida threw the presidential contest four years
> ago into a muddle that was decided by the U.S. Supreme Court.
>
> "We're particularly concerned about treatment of African Americans, Latino,
> Asian American and Native American voters, who were disproportionately
> disenfranchised in the 2000 federal elections," AFL-CIO spokeswoman Cecelie
> Counts said.
Too bad this "spokesperson" didnt bother to educate herself on the
whole story
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/dissenting_report_press_releas.htm
"Analysis Finds Errors in Majority Report; Better Data Reveals No
Bias In Election
Dr. Abigail Thernstrom, a member of the U.S. Commission on Civil
Rights, testified today before the Senate Rules Committee that the
Commission's majority report on the 2000 Florida election used flawed
data to justify its preconceived, partisan belief that the election
was marred by discrimination and disfranchisement of minority voters.
A more rigorous statistical analysis of the Florida voting data found
that the race of voters in recent Florida elections was statistically
unrelated to the rate of ballot spoilage.
Commissioners Thernstrom and Russell Redenbaugh today released their
dissent from the Commission's majority report, which alleged
disfranchisement of "countless" minority voters in Florida.
Their dissent found serious flaws in the methodology and analysis of
the Commission's study of voting patterns and practices. The
Commission ignored extensive, unrefuted evidence that the Florida
election suffered only from imperfections that were unrelated to race.
No evidence supports allegations of disfranchisement or discrimination
against minorities.
"The majority report used shoddy statistical analysis, coupled with
anecdotal and unsubstantiated allegations—disregarding the
preponderance of testimony—to paint a portrait of disfranchisement and
intimidation of minorities in the Florida election that bears no
resemblance whatsoever to actual fact," said Dr. Thernstrom.
Thernstrom continued: "The Florida election was, in fact, free of
racial bias, and was hampered only by problems that were neither
motivated by racial discrimination nor served to disfranchise minority
voters. By ignoring this evidence, the Commission has squandered its
credibility as a fact-finding agency. We can only conclude that the
Commission, as it is presently constituted, is unable to conduct
objective research, and hence is no longer able to serve the public
interest."
Among the chief weaknesses of the Commission's majority report
outlined in Thernstrom and Redenbaugh's dissent:
1. The majority report simply ignored the preponderance of witnesses
who appeared before the Commission and testified that there was no
evidence of discrimination or any race-based problems in the Florida
election. Problems were caused by bureaucratic inefficiencies,
inexperienced voters, or other technical problems that were unrelated
to race.
2. The majority report relied upon highly questionable and incomplete
statistical work by Dr. Allan Lichtman, the conclusions of which were
based on ecological regressions that are often unreliable. A more
sophisticated regression analysis was performed for Thernstrom and
Redenbaugh by Dr. John Lott. It resoundingly rejected Dr. Lichtman's
conclusions. Dr. Lott found that the rate of ballot spoilage was
statistically unrelated to the race of voters.
3. Although some voters did cast invalid ballots, voter error is not
disfranchisement. Race was not a dominant factor explaining the rate
of ballot spoilage. Dr. Lott's work established that non-racial
factors can explain 70 percent of the variance between county rates of
invalid ballots (three times as strong a relationship as Lichtman
found). In other words, the best indicator of a county's rate of
ballot spoilage was not its racial composition, but other factors such
as poverty. Indeed removing race entirely from the equation does not
significantly change the rate of ballot spoilage.
4. Astonishingly, Dr. Lichtman's analysis almost entirely ignores
Florida's largest minority group—people of Hispanic origin—as well as
all other non-black minorities, such as Asians and Native Americans.
5. Dr. Lichtman also ignored the conflict between his statewide
estimate that blacks were nine times more likely than whites to cast
spoiled ballots, and his more accurate precinct data that show racial
disparities less than half as large.
6. Dr. Lichtman's analysis for the Commission majority relied upon
data from only the 2000 election, and failed to compare that data with
earlier years. Dr. Lott compared the 2000 data with ballot spoilage
data from the 1992 and ‘96 elections and compared variations in ballot
spoilage to demographic changes. He found that a rise in a county's
black population did not result in a similar rise in spoilage rates,
suggesting again that race is not the explanatory factor in ballot
spoilage.
7. The majority report's conclusion that the Voting Rights Act was
violated relies upon a greatly distorted interpretation of the Act.
Despite the thousands of voting rights cases on the books, not a
single one supports the majority's argument that higher error rates
among black voters suggest disfranchisement. The Voting Rights Act was
designed to provide remedies for disfranchisement—the meaning of which
cannot be stretched to include voter error.
8. The Commission's majority report improperly blames Florida state
officials—particularly Governor Jeb Bush and Secretary of State
Kathryn Harris—for technical problems with voting, in disregard of the
fact that these matters were the responsibility of the 67 county
supervisors of elections. In all but one of the 25 counties with the
highest spoilage rates, the election was supervised by a Democrat—the
one exception being an official with no party affiliation.
9. The majority report improperly charges Florida law enforcement
officials with intimidating African American voters, when no credible
evidence supports this inflammatory charge. As a fact-finding agency,
the Commission had a responsibility to put these ugly, well-publicized
allegations to rest. In fact, no evidence has been supplied that
demonstrated Florida voters, regardless of race, were hindered from
voting by Florida police.
10. The majority report's analysis of errors in the "purge list" (of
convicted felons ineligible to vote) incorrectly finds racial
discrimination. The purge list was not used in many counties, although
an exact count is unavailable. Moreover, the racial disparity on the
list was due to the indisputable fact that blacks are
disproportionately represented in any count of convicted felons.
Also, the statistics given in the report actually show that blacks
were not disproportionately included in the purge list erroneously.
Instead the proportion of whites erroneously listed was double that
for blacks.
11. Procedural irregularities and naked partisanship at the U.S.
Commission on Civil Rights seriously marred the production of the
majority report on the Florida election. The Commission ignored basic
the rules of evidence and procedure throughout the process of
investigating the Florida election.
Most importantly, Thernstrom & Redenbaugh were denied access to the
statistical information used by the Commission's analyst, Dr.
Lichtman, so they could easily duplicate his work—in violation of the
Freedom of Information Act and well-established academic standards.
Dr. Lichtman had worked as a consultant to Al Gore and was quoted in
early January (before he began any statistical analysis of his own) as
saying that, based upon reading the New York Times, he had already
concluded that the Voting Rights Act had been violated in the Florida
election.
Governor Bush was the only witness called before the Commission who
was not allowed to make an opening statement.
The Commission Chair was quoted in the Florida press as comparing
Governor Bush and the Secretary of State to "Pontius Pilate... just
washing their hands of the whole thing."
On March 9, six commissioners issued a "preliminary assessment"—in
effect, a verdict—long before the staff had completed its review of
the evidence.
Florida authorities who might be defamed by the report were not given
proper time to review the parts of the report sent to them—to say
nothing of their right to review the report in its entirety.
Now snip,snip,snip Gandy
T.Carr
Roy Blankenship
"T.Carr" <TCarr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8c213b2e.04083...@posting.google.com...
>snip<
Too bad this "poster" doesn't know who the Manhattan Institute is.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45c/180.html
Gandalf Grey
"T.Carr" <TCarr...@aol.com>
Minority Voters Still Facing Intimidation, Report Finds
From Reuters
August 26, 2004
WASHINGTON - Voter intimidation, particularly of minorities, continues to be
a problem in some states, according to a report released Wednesday.
"Minority voters bear the brunt of every form of disenfranchisement,
including pernicious efforts to keep them away from the polls," said Julian
Bond, board chairman of the National Assn. for the Advancement of Colored
People.
The report, by the NAACP and People for the American Way Foundation, reveals
that the types of voter intimidation found in the past - discriminatory
literacy tests, poll taxes and physical violence - have been supplanted by
other methods, including:
. A plan in Kentucky to place "vote challengers" in African American
precincts during the upcoming elections;
. The use of armed, plainclothes officers from the Florida Department of
Law Enforcement to question elderly black voters in Orlando as part of a
state investigation of voting irregularities in the city's 2003 mayoral
race.
. The barring of Native Americans from voting in South Dakota's June
primary after they were challenged to provide photo identification, which is
not required by state or federal law.
In a separate development, the AFL-CIO said it would watch for any attempt
to reprise voting rights violations that marred the 2000 election.
Voting irregularities in Florida threw the presidential contest four years
ago into a muddle that was decided by the U.S. Supreme Court.
"We're particularly concerned about treatment of African Americans, Latino,
Asian American and Native American voters, who were disproportionately
disenfranchised in the 2000 federal elections," AFL-CIO spokeswoman Cecelie
Counts said.
--
Gandalf Grey
"Roy Blankenship" <point...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tSPYc.8826$6o3....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Terri doesn't know much of anything, and Terri lies about the rest.
>
>
T.Carr
Roy Blankenship" <point...@earthlink.net
> Too bad this "poster" doesn't know who the Manhattan Institute is.
>
> http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45c/180.html
I grabbed the first site that had the Civil Rights comission's minority report
Do you claim that the site fabricated it?
T.Carr
T.Carr
Gandalf Grey" <ganda...@infectedmail.com
> Terri doesn't know much of anything, and Terri lies about the rest.
Well gandy, the more I learn, the more I realize just how much I
dont know
As far as lies...
"It wasn't the MOST sensitive material"--"Gandalf" lying
"A government source said some of the documents at issue were
classified as "code word" materials -- the highest level of secrecy in
the U.S. government, held more closely than nuclear secrets."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/21/berger.probe/index.html
Now follow your MO and snip,snip,snip
T.Carr
>
> >
> >
Gandalf Grey
And the more you post, the more we realize how much you don't know.
T.Carr
Gandalf Grey" <ganda...@infectedmail.com
> And the more you post, the more we realize how much you don't know.
You and your sock puppet "we" lead a interesting life
Since you didnt "snip" you previous comment about "lies"
"It wasn't the MOST sensitive material"
Gandalf lying about the documents in the Berger investigation
" government source said some of the documents at issue were
classified as "code word" materials -- the highest level of secrecy in
the U.S. government, held more closely than nuclear secrets."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/20/berger.probe/index.html
Now snip,snip,snip
T.Carr
Gandalf Grey
> > > > > > > > > >
> > http://www.sptimes.com/2004/08/09/Opinion/An_ugly_attack.shtml
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > An ugly attack
> > > > > > > > > > A Times Editorial
> > > > > > > > > > Published August 9, 2004
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > ----
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > John Kerry, who has spent his adult life as a
prosecutor,
> > lieutenant
> > > > > > > > > > governor and four-term U.S. senator, may be fairly
accused
> > of
> > > > > > > > > > overemphasizing his Vietnam War experience in his
campaign
> > for
> > president.
> > > > > > > > > > But the latest attack from a Republican-backed political
> > > > committee
> > > > seeking
> > > > > > > > > > to discredit Kerry's Vietnam service is dishonest and
> > indecent.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Kerry earned a Bronze Star, a Silver Star and three
Purple
> > > > Hearts
> > > > commanding
> > > > > > > > > > a swift boat in Vietnam, but the so-called "Swift Boat
> > Veterans
> > > > for
> > > > Truth"
> > > > > > > > > > challenge the very notion that Kerry served his country
> > > > honorably.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > group, which is funded in large part by a Houston
> > homebuilder
> > > > who
> > > > gives
> > > > > > > > > > generously to Republicans, has released a commercial
> > featuring
> > Vietnam
> > > > > > > > > > veterans who claim in the absence of any verifiable
proof
> > that
> > Kerry
> > > > > > "is
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > war hero" and "lied to get his Bronze Star." Many
members of
> > > > Kerry's
> > > > former
> > > > > > > > > > crew have attested to his bravery and are supporting his
> > campaign.
> > > > > > None
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" served on Kerry's
boat.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > This isn't the first time that such gutter tactics have
been
> > > > > > directed at
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > political opponent of George W. Bush. The passionate
> > response
> > > > the
> > > > anti-Kerry
> > > > > > > > > > ad evoked from Republican U.S. Sen. John McCain is a
> > reminder of
> > > > the
> > > > pattern
> > > > > > > > > > here. Four years ago, McCain was campaigning against
Bush
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > Republican
> > > > > > > > > > presidential nomination only to see Bush appear on a
South
> > > > Carolina
> > > > stage
> > > > > > > > > > with a discredited former Green Beret who accused McCain
of
> > "stabbing
> > > > > > > > > > veterans in the back." Other supposedly independent
groups
> > spread
> > > > > > even
> > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > > despicable rumors about McCain, who spent 5 1/2 years in
a
> > Hanoi
> > > > > > prison.
> > > > > > Two
> > > > > > > > > > years ago, Max Cleland, a U.S. senator from Georgia who
lost
> > both
> > > > > > legs
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > an arm in Vietnam, found himself on the receiving end of
a
> > Republican
> > > > > > > > > > commercial that pictured Osama bin Laden and claimed
Cleland
> > > > lacked
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > "courage to lead."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On a campaign stop last week in support of Bush, McCain
> > asked
> > > > the
> > > > president
> > > > > > > > > > to condemn the Kerry commercial. But the closest White
House
> > > > press
> > > > secretary
> > > > > > > > > > Scott McClellan would venture was to offer this
disingenuous
> > > > > > rejoinder:
> > > > > > "The
> > > > > > > > > > president deplores all the unregulated soft money
activity."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > McCain was more direct. He called the ad "dishonest and
> > > > > > dishonorable"
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > told the Associated Press, "I deplore this kind of
> > politics."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Whether Kerry is the better candidate for president is
an
> > issue
> > that
> > > > > > > > > > deserves vigorous debate. Whether he, like McCain, was a
> > genuine
> > > > > > combat
> > > > > > hero
> > > > > > > > > > who risked his life in service to his country is beyond
> > dispute.
> > > > If
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > president can't distance himself from such political
filth,
> > then
> > > > he
> > > > brings
> > > > > > > > > > dishonor upon his own campaign.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Apparently the opinion writer and yourself dont keep up
on
> > current
> > > > > > > > > events..or read all of the white houses response
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Bush campaign distances itself from commercial
> > > > > > > > > Friday, August 6, 2004 Posted: 9:53 AM EDT (1353 GMT)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gandalf Grey" <ganda...@infectedmail.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Apparently, you ought to practice what you preach, Terri.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Given your MO I find your hypocrisy amusing Gandy
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > McCain called on
> > > > > > > > the Bush Crime Family White House to denounce the ad.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here is what he said
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Gandalf Grey" <ganda...@infectedmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > > Are you denying that McCain called on Bush to denounce the ad?
> > > > >
> > > > > Nope.
> > > > >
> > > > > However, He didnt ask the "Bush Crime Family White House to
denounce
> > > > > the ad"
> > > >
> > >
> > > Gandalf Grey" <ganda...@infectedmail.com
> > >
> > > > Would that be kind of like how you stated:
> > > >
> > > > "What was reported, and ignored by the opinion writer, is that Mr
> > > > McNickle quoted Mrs Heinz Kerry accurately and she lost her
> > composure."???
> > >
> > > You dodge is duly noted gandy.
> >
>
> Gandalf Grey" <ganda...@infectedmail.com
>
> > What dodge? The subject is veracity. Do you deny you posted the above?
>
> Your "claim" was "However, He didnt ask the "Bush Crime Family White
> House to denounce the ad"
>
> Your so called "reply" was to post a statement from another thread.
>
> Do you deny your dodge above?
Your entire MO seems to be "Gandalf does it too." That's fine. If you want
to get into that kind of gradeschool debate technique. But it's still not
going to work. I can call the Bush family anything I want to call them, and
you're certainly free to get upset at my adjectives, but your statement
about Kerry's wife is a LIE, plain and simple. It's not just a lie, it's a
KNOWING lie because even as you made the comment, you had already collected
the articles that accurately quoted the exchange and the admission by the
hack that he had used the words "unamerican activities."
You could have admitted that you lied. You could have equivocated and said
that you "misspoke." But you've chosen to try to get away with a
combination of skirting the comment and this smarmy attempt at a tu quo que
argument that isn't going to get you anywhere. Even if you can somehow
prove that I have knowingly lied, it isn't going to change the fact that
you're a liar. You supposedly represent the party that's taken a "higher
moral ground" and all you do is LIE.
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > When you occasionally stray to the facts topics can actually be
> > > > > discussed
> > > >
> > > > Irony meter just pinned.
> > >
> > > As if your "meter" had any revelance to the discussion
> >
> > As if anything you had to say had relevance to any discussion.
>
> Which explains your continued participation in this thread?
You frankly amuse me, Terri.
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "And, in an interview with The Associated Press, Republican
Sen.
> > > > > > > John McCain of Arizona -- a former prisoner of war in
Vietnam --
> > > > > > > denounced the ad as "dishonest and dishonorable."(McCain
condemns
> > > > > > > anti-Kerry ad)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > McCain told the AP the ad was "the same kind of deal they
pulled
> > on
> > > > > > > me" during his 2000 presidential race, when the Arizona
lawmaker
> > ran
> > > > > > > against Bush in the Republican presidential primaries.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > At the time, McCain's backers accused Bush allies of using
> > telephone
> > > > > > > surveys to spread rumors about McCain. The Bush campaign said
it
> > knew
> > > > > > > nothing about the tactics and couldn't do anything about them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/05/kerry.veterans/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Try reading the last statement before snipping it gandy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Answer the question, Terri. Are you denying that McCain called
on
> > the
> > Bush
> > > > > > campaign to denounce the ad?
> > > > >
> > > > > Nope.
> > > >
> > > > Good, I see you're like a broken watch. Accurate at least twice a
day.
> >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > However, He didnt ask the "Bush Crime Family White House to
denounce
> > > > > the ad"
> > > >
> > > > " What was reported, and ignored by the opinion writer, is that Mr
> > > > McNickle quoted Mrs Heinz Kerry accurately and she lost her
composure."
> >
> > > > --T. Carr lying.
> > >
> > >
> > > Glad to see you are consistent..still dodging
> >
> > Glad to see you're still dodging your own words.
>
> "He didnt ask the "Bush Crime Family White House to denounce
> the ad"
Who's dodging. I wrote it. So what?
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > "It wasn't the MOST sensitive material"--"Gandalf" lying
> >
> > " What was reported, and ignored by the opinion writer, is that Mr
> > McNickle quoted Mrs Heinz Kerry accurately and she lost her composure."
> > --T. Carr lying.
> >
> > >
> > > "A government source said some of the documents at issue were
> > > classified as "code word" materials -- the highest level of secrecy in
> > > the U.S. government, held more closely than nuclear secrets."
> >
> > Yawn.
>
> "The subject is veracity. Do you deny you posted the above?"
Nope. My position is that the MOST sensitive or secret documents are
ORIGINALS. Not the COPIES that Berger inadvertantly walked off with. If
you want to quibble with that statement, that's fine. But that's my take on
it.
>
>
> >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Since the ad came
> > > > > > > > from Bush backers and WE ALL KNOW THAT, Bush can't really
> > "distance
> > himself"
> > > > > > > > from the ad.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One of the contributors to the ad is a GOP contributor
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are numerous GOPs involved with the switftboat smearsquad,
> > Terri.
> > > > >
> > > > > Apparently there are some 'dems involved with the book as well.
> > > >
> > > > Zell Miller calls himself a democrat.
> > >
> > > You call yourself a "progressive"
> >
> > Sometimes.
> >
> > >
> > > Your point being?
> >
> > My point is that anyone can call themselves anything.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I suspect you feel all of the kerry supporters are telling
nothing
> > > > > but the truth, and the "swift boat vets" are telling nothing but
lies
> > > >
> > > > The swift boat vets ARE lying. That's been established. Their
stories
> > > > contradict not only the official record, but in several cases, their
own
> > > > past remarks.
> > >
> > > and The topic of the ad is telling 100% truth.. about his service in
> > > Vietnam?
> >
> > Do you even know what the hell you're saying?
>
> Do you?
Yes. I'm saying that O'Neill and his little buddies are liars. Just like
you're a liar. Now go up and either re-edit your sentence or explain what
your sentence is supposed to mean in English.
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do you dispute that?
> > > > >
> > > > > No more than you would "dispute" that some of the swift boat
vets
> > > > > referenced are 'dems
> > > >
> > > > Zell Miller calls himself a democrat.
> > >
> > > You call yourself a "progressive"
> > >
> > > Your point being?
> >
> > That anyone can call themselves anything.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I dont see your outrage when 3rd party ads attacking Bush
come
> > from
> > > > > > > Kerry backers (ie George Soros)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't see your outrage now, Terri.
> > > > >
> > > > > Question too hard for you gandy?
> > > >
> > > > Question too hard for you, Terri?
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > So far all you do is ask questions..never answer them
> > > >
> > > > Ditto.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > WE ALL KNOW THAT, Kery can't really "distance himself" from
the
> > ads
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We all know that Kerry doesn't have to distance himself from a
> > proven
> > bunch
> > > > > > of lies.
> > > > >
> > > > > Right gandy..everything the moveon.org, moore, etc.. claim are
100%
> > > > > true
> > > >
> > > > Non sequitur. But attempt to divert attention noted.
> > >
> > > ""What was reported, and ignored by the opinion writer, is that Mr
> > > McNickle quoted Mrs Heinz Kerry accurately and she lost her
> > > composure."???
> >
> > Which is a lie on your part.
>
> Coming from a proven liar like yourself, I'll take the commentary
> with appropriate degree of concern
Do you submit that your statement above on Kerry's wife is correct as it
stands?
>
>
> > >
> > > Speaking of irony meters
> >
> > Yeah. You just broke another one. These things aren't cheap.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I note you "snipped" the question..I'll try again
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Do you only object to 3rd party attack ads when your
candidate
> > is
> > > > > > > being mentioned?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I was outraged when the Bush Crime Family launched the "black
love
> > baby
> > ad"
> > > > > > on John McCain,
> > > > >
> > > > > "At the time, McCain's backers accused Bush allies of using
> > > > > telephone surveys to spread rumors about McCain. The Bush campaign
> > > > > said it knew nothing about the tactics and couldn't do anything
about
> > > > > them.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/05/kerry.veterans/
> > > > >
> > > > > Rove was part of the Bush campaign
> > > >
> > > > And you believe everything Karl Rove says.
> > >
> > > In the absense of a credible cite to the contrary I'll believe thg
> > > Bush campaign
> >
> > But then why should we believe someone who lies about something Mrs.
Heinz
> > Kerry said?
>
> "That anyone can call themselves anything."
So, since you're apparently admitting that you have no credibility, you're
saying that we shouldn't believe you.
>
> Still waiting for a credible cite "gandy"
Well, Bush is obviously lying when he has the campaign say, as above, that
he "can't do anything about them." He could obviously denounce them as he
had yet another chance to do last night.
President Bush Refuses to Condemn Smear Ad
http://blog.johnkerry.com/rapidresponse/archives/002445.html#more
>
> >
> > >
> > > I have proof that the Bush
> > > > campaign and specifically Karl Rove is intimately connected with the
> > chief
> > > > financial backer of both the John McCain black baby smear and the
> > Swiftboat
> > > > Vets smear.
> > >
> > > Feel free to post the PROOF that Rove was directly involved in the
> > > smear campaign we are discussing
> >
> > Been there, done that. Rove and the Texas backer of the ad go Waaaay
back.
>
> Credible cite please
> >
> > >
> > > Post it right here gandy ===> Look up.
> >
> > >
> > > You have a cite in which the Bush campaign denies they had
> > > > anything to do with the ad.
> > >
> > > WHich is more than you have provided to date.
> >
> > Anyone can say they're anything. You just got impaled on your own
sword.
>
> Still waiting gandy..where are the credible cites backing your
> claims?
Specifically the claim concerning Rove and Perry:
Top Texas Donor's Influence Far More Visible Than He Is
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-perry8aug08,1,6263123.story?coll=la-headlines-nation
The claim concerning the republican ties and backing of the group:
John O'Neill Kerry bashing by the GOP elite.
http://www.politicalpuzzle.org/archives/002130.php
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The chief spokesman for the ad is O'Neill, a man handpicked by
Nixon's
> > aid,
> > > > at Nixon's specific direction, to politically castrate John Kerry.
The
> > > > Nixon administration was also well known for simply denying it had
> > anything
> > > > to do with events it was directly and indirectly responsible for.
> > > >
> > > > With both history and logic being on my side, I think I'll take my
facts
> > > > over your denial report anyday.
> > >
> > > You claimed you had "proof"
> >
> > Logic and history can provide proof to an intelligent mind.
>
> Still waiting..credible cites please
http://www.politicalpuzzle.org/archives/002130.php
http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200408060009
http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200408060011
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/06/veteran_retracts_criticism_of_kerry/
http://mediamatters.org/items/200408060010
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/08/06/kerry_smear/print.html
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/opinion/article_9754.shtml
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/08/09/Opinion/An_ugly_attack.shtml
http://www.suntimes.com/output/commentary/cst-edt-edits08.html
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/news_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_86_3094687,00.html
http://www.g0lem.net/PhpWiki/index.php/NotTooSwift
http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=8304
>
> >
> > >
> > > You innuendo, projection ,etc..is not proof
> >
> > Just like you didn't actually pen that quote about Mrs. Heinz Kerry.
Sure,
> > Terri. We believe you.
>
> You and your sock puppet "we" can beleive anything you want
That's not an answer, Terri. Did you or did you not pen the false claim
about Kerry's Wife?
>
> Still waiting for credible cites for support of your claims
http://www.politicalpuzzle.org/archives/002130.php
http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200408060009
http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200408060011
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/06/veteran_retracts_criticism_of_kerry/
http://mediamatters.org/items/200408060010
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/08/06/kerry_smear/print.html
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/opinion/article_9754.shtml
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/08/09/Opinion/An_ugly_attack.shtml
http://www.suntimes.com/output/commentary/cst-edt-edits08.html
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/news_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_86_3094687,00.html
http://www.g0lem.net/PhpWiki/index.php/NotTooSwift
http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=8304
>
> >
> > >
> > > spin, gandy spin
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Now if you have a credible cite to back your claim, post if
here===>
> > > >
> > > > www.mediamatters.org
> > >
> > > Try again gandy. I'm not going to search a website for you
> >
> > Tough.
>
> It is when the buden of proof is on you to support your claims
So I take it you have proof that your statement about Mrs. Heinz Kerry is a
fact.
Post it right here=========>
>
> >
> > >
> > > You made the claim
> > >
> > > You prove it
> >
> > www.mediamatters.org
>
> Specific link please. You wouldnt accept a claim from another poster
> claiming information was in a major newspaper (ie Boston Globe, NY
> Times, etc...)
http://www.politicalpuzzle.org/archives/002130.php
http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200408060009
http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200408060011
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/06/veteran_retracts_criticism_of_kerry/
http://mediamatters.org/items/200408060010
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/08/06/kerry_smear/print.html
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/opinion/article_9754.shtml
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/08/09/Opinion/An_ugly_attack.shtml
http://www.suntimes.com/output/commentary/cst-edt-edits08.html
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/news_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_86_3094687,00.html
http://www.g0lem.net/PhpWiki/index.php/NotTooSwift
http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=8304
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I predict this is where the exchange is "snipped" again
> > > >
> > > > And your predictions aren't worth much.
> >
> > And your predictions still aren't worth much.
>
> As are your opinions.
These aren't my opinions. It's a fact that you lied about Kerry's wife.
>
> Your point being?
See above.
>
> >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >and I wouldn't vote for John McCain as dog-catcher.
> > > > >
> > > > > You wouldnt vote for anyone with a (R) after their name. Tell me
> > > > > something I dont already know gandy.
> > > >
> > > > Okay,,,,you're a liar, Carr. Whoops! You already know that.
> > >
> > > High praise coming from a proven liar like gandy
> >
> > Post a lie. Oh, that's right. You already posted your lie about
Kerry's
> > wife. But that was YOUR lie, wasn't it? So confusing.
>
> Forget this one already?
>
> "Bush Counterterrorism Effort: NONE before 9/11"
That's not a lie. That's my personal assessment on what the Bush
administration did about terrorism compared to the efforts of the Clinton
administration.
Actually, I'd have to go further. Since the Bush Regime actually cancelled
out on the programs started by Clinton and deliberately called off
investigations that were in progress by the FBI/CIA on the bin Ladens. It
would have to be said that Bush was actively working to undermine
anti-terrorism activities by the government. All of this plus the fact that
Cheney's group that was going to be the terrorism watchdog for the Bush
Regime met on the subject exactly ZERO times. Well, I'd say NONE is a fair
description of Bush's efforts.
>
> Gandalf lying about the administrations anti terrorism effort in a
> thread header 7/22/04
>
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,115085,00.html
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/22/opinion/22thu1.html?pagewanted=print&position=
Fox is NOT a credible source for facts. That's been proven over and over
again.
>
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > So,
> > > > > > don't try the hypocrisy ploy on me, Terri. I've never seen your
> > outrage
> > at
> > > > > > ANY attack on the dems.
> > > > >
> > > > > As I havent see any outrage by you on attacks on the GOP.
> > > >
> > > > Bush attacked McCain. McCain is GOP. I was outraged by that.
> > >
> > > "At the time, McCain's backers accused Bush allies of using
> > > telephone surveys to spread rumors about McCain. The Bush campaign
> > > said it knew nothing about the tactics and couldn't do anything about
> > > them.
> >
> > Anyone can say they're anything. Just like you said, Terri.
>
> And when 'dems like gandy cant support their claims....
http://www.politicalpuzzle.org/archives/002130.php
http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200408060009
http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200408060011
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/06/veteran_retracts_criticism_of_kerry/
http://mediamatters.org/items/200408060010
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/08/06/kerry_smear/print.html
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/opinion/article_9754.shtml
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/08/09/Opinion/An_ugly_attack.shtml
http://www.suntimes.com/output/commentary/cst-edt-edits08.html
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/news_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_86_3094687,00.html
http://www.g0lem.net/PhpWiki/index.php/NotTooSwift
http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=8304
>
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > Your proof that Bush attacked McCain is where gandy?
> >
> > www.mediamatters.org
>
> Try again gandy.
Okay.
http://www.politicalpuzzle.org/archives/002130.php
http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200408060009
http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200408060011
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/06/veteran_retracts_criticism_of_kerry/
http://mediamatters.org/items/200408060010
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/08/06/kerry_smear/print.html
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/opinion/article_9754.shtml
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/08/09/Opinion/An_ugly_attack.shtml
http://www.suntimes.com/output/commentary/cst-edt-edits08.html
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/news_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_86_3094687,00.html
http://www.g0lem.net/PhpWiki/index.php/NotTooSwift
http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=8304
>
> >
> > >
> > > If you are referring to some other ad, feel free to cite it
> > >
> > > Or is this just another lie?
> >
> > " What was reported, and ignored by the opinion writer, is that Mr
> > McNickle quoted Mrs Heinz Kerry accurately and she lost her composure."
> > --T. Carr lying.
>
> " "Bush Counterterrorism Effort: NONE before 9/11"
See above.
>
> Gandalf lying about the administrations anti terrorism effort in a
> thread header 7/22/04
>
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,115085,00.html
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/22/opinion/22thu1.html?pagewanted=print&position=
Fox is not a credible source for facts.
>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This particular attack is an utter smear and your
> > > > > > silence on the issue speaks volumes about your hypocrisy and
your
> > > > > > willingness to follow the right wing to any depth.
> > > > >
> > > > > Somehow I missed your outrage about past 'dem attack ads
hypocrite.
> > > >
> > > > Tu quo que argument noted.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Smear campaigns that Bush used cocaine..
> > > >
> > > > Never saw it
> >
> > > >
> > > > > you had no problem
> > > > > Smear campaigns that Bush made a girl get a abortion.
> > > >
> > > > Never saw it.
> > > >
> > > > >.you had no
> > > > > objection
> > > > > Attack ads in 2000 linking Bush the the Byrd lynching.
> > > >
> > > > Never saw it.
> > >
> > > Spare me Gandalf
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > >
> > > You are claiming you "didnt see" or were not aware of the NAACP ad
> > > in 2000 where Bush was linked to the Byrd lynching?
> >
> > Yep. Got proof that I WAS aware of it? Got any posting in which I
> > responded on the topic one way or the other. Anything? Anything?
> >
> > *crickets*
> >
> > When you find it, post it right here=========>
Your inability to cite an example is noted.
Post your apology right here============>
> >
> > >
> > > You post dozens of articles daily..for years
> >
> > Your point?
>
> For a poster "on top" of current events, you seem to have "missed"
> one of the most controversial ads of the past election.
So? I'm not omniscient. You've got me on that. I'm not George Bush, I
don't claim to have a hot line to the only all-knowing being in the
Universe.
>
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >.Fine with
> > > > > Gandy
> > > >
> > > > You don't get to make that call, Terri.
> > >
> > > I get the first ammendment gandy
> >
> > Which makes you just one more lying loudmouth, Terri.
>
> Apparently you dont dissenting opinion gandy
Learn to complete a sentence, Terri.
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It isnt that hard of a question to answer Gandy
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No it isn't. And it isn't hard to see that you're a hypocrite,
> > Terri.
> > > > >
> > > > > You need you vision checked gandy.
> > > >
> > > > You need to stop lying, Terri.
> > >
> > > Hypocrite..heal thyself
> >
> > Check the mirror, Terri.
> >
> > " What was reported, and ignored by the opinion writer, is that Mr
> > McNickle quoted Mrs Heinz Kerry accurately and she lost her composure."
> > --T. Carr lying.
>
> Does your mirror have any area without cracks?
What's your point, Terri? Why don't you just speak plainly?
>
> " "Bush Counterterrorism Effort: NONE before 9/11"
See my explanation above.
>
> Gandalf lying about the administrations anti terrorism effort in a
> thread header 7/22/04
>
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,115085,00.html
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/22/opinion/22thu1.html?pagewanted=print&position=
Fox is not a credible news source.
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > For the record..I find this ad at best a distraction from the
real
> > > > > issues of the election.
> > > >
> > > > Wow. The stopped watch effect strikes again.
> > > >
> > > > > Even if the "swift boat vets" are telling 100%
> > > > > truth (doubtful, just as the Kerry supporters are telling 100%
truth)
> > > > > it really doesnt matter to what should decide the election....Just
> > > > > like the 12+ months of AWOL claims that you support. The war was
over
> > > > > 30 years ago. I wasnt with Kerry or Bush
> > > > >
> > > > > Neither were you
> > > > >
> > > > > Thats where we differ "gandy"
> > > >
> > > > Actually, that's where we don't differ. Nice job of, once again
proving
> > > > you're pretty much incapable of recognizing reality.
> > >
> > > Your reality where Konspiracy theories are "proof"?
> >
> > My reality where the only thing you can come up with is that neither one
of
> > us was with Kerry and that this reality is something in which we differ.
> >
> > You're not just a liar, Terri. You're a really stupid liar.
>
> Should I be upset about commentary coming from a proven liar like
> yourself, hiding behind a alias, and trying to guess my name?
So far your "proven liar" claim just isn't holding up, Terri. But YOUR
quoted comment on Kerry's wife is a proven LIE.
>
>
> > >
> > > I dont need a foil hat
> >
> > Agreed. That would require a head to put it on.
>
> Though of that all by yourself did you?
Yes.
>
> >
> > Now, lie, lie, lie, Terri.
> >
> > " What was reported, and ignored by the opinion writer, is that Mr
> > McNickle quoted Mrs Heinz Kerry accurately and she lost her composure."
> > --T. Carr lying.
>
> Now Lie,lie,lie..or your usual "snip,snip,snip"
Why should I lie, when your comment on Kerry's wife is a proven lie?
>
> "Bush Counterterrorism Effort: NONE before 9/11"
I've explained that above. Your repeating it won't change a thing.
When are you going to explain your lie about Kerry's wife?
>
Spin, spin, spin, Terri
Roy Blankenship
It is a right-wing propaganda site masquerading as some sort of
"intellectual pursuit".
T.Carr
Wasting bandwidth and reposting off topic threads again gandy?
You are so predictable.
T.Carr
T.Carr
Roy Blankenship" <point...@earthlink.net
> It is a right-wing propaganda site masquerading as some sort of
> "intellectual pursuit".
You dodged the question
Was the report cited a fabrication?
Yes or no
T.Carr
Dave
Your big mistake was quoting anything from that racist Bond. Anyone,
whether colored or white, that listens to what he says is lost
already.
Gandalf Grey
Gandalf Grey
James Martinez
> a problem in some states, according to a report released Wednesday.
> "Minority voters bear the brunt of every form of disenfranchisement,
> including pernicious efforts to keep them away from the polls," said Julian
> Bond, board chairman of the National Assn. for the Advancement of Colored
Garbage. Total absolute and complete garbage. A better observation
would be that the political hacks in said communities use intimidation
and threats to drag minority voters to the polls. Some going so far as
to stay with the individual when they vote, to make sure they know how
to complete the procedure.
Do you honestly believe that Julian Bond is going to complain about
voting irregularities in minority communities. Or how often voting laws
have been ignored so that churches can drag their congregations to the
polls after the Sunday service? Bond and like pundits believe in two
sets of voting standards; one for those in minority communities, and one
for everyone else.
Did you notice how Bond, et. al., came out to support Voting Reform
after the 2000 election. Where they were conspicuous in their absence.
James Martinez
> Asian American and Native American voters, who were disproportionately
> disenfranchised in the 2000 federal elections," AFL-CIO spokeswoman Cecelie
> Counts said.
Translation: We are having difficulty with our efforts to intimidate
minority voters so that they vote in the manner in which we instruct
them. Many have found out on their own that past social welfare
programs have done more harm than good, and are no longer allowing
themselves to be indoctrinated.
Gandalf Grey
"James Martinez" <pint...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9b9ef516.04090...@posting.google.com...
> > WASHINGTON - Voter intimidation, particularly of minorities, continues
to be
> > a problem in some states, according to a report released Wednesday.
>
> > "Minority voters bear the brunt of every form of disenfranchisement,
> > including pernicious efforts to keep them away from the polls," said
Julian
> > Bond, board chairman of the National Assn. for the Advancement of
Colored
> > People. <snip>
>
> Garbage. Total absolute and complete garbage.
All evidence to the contrary.
Gandalf Grey
> > "We're particularly concerned about treatment of African Americans,
Latino,
> > Asian American and Native American voters, who were disproportionately
> > disenfranchised in the 2000 federal elections," AFL-CIO spokeswoman
Cecelie
> > Counts said.
>
> Translation: We are having difficulty with our efforts to intimidate
> minority voters
Translation: The AFL-CIO is legitimately concerned about right wing voter
intimidation and the usual right wing shills are out here trying to respin
the facts.
Madelin McKinnon
It is a condition of broad wisdom, boundless energy, and good
fortune wherein we each shape our own destiny, find fulfillment
in daily activites, [without reading Karl Rove's script] and
come to understand our ultimate purpose in life.
T.Carr
> "James Martinez" <pint...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9b9ef516.0409...@posting.google.com...
> > > "We're particularly concerned about treatment of African Americans,
> Latino,
> > > Asian American and Native American voters, who were disproportionately
> > > disenfranchised in the 2000 federal elections," AFL-CIO spokeswoman
> Cecelie
> > > Counts said.
> >
> > Translation: We are having difficulty with our efforts to intimidate
> > minority voters
>
Gandalf Grey" <ganda...@infectedmail.com
> Translation: The AFL-CIO is legitimately concerned about right wing voter
> intimidation and the usual right wing shills are out here trying to respin
> the facts.
This "intimidation" gandy?
"DISSENTING REPORT ON FLORIDA FINDS NO DISCRIMINATION
####
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/dissenting_report_press_releas.htm
Now snip,snip,snip
T.Carr
James Martinez
>>> including pernicious efforts to keep them away from the polls," said
>>> Julian Bond, board chairman of the National Assn. for the Advancement
>>> of Colored People. <snip>
>> Garbage. Total absolute and complete garbage.
> All evidence to the contrary.
Anyone who was raised in a lower class minority community can tell you
accounts of voting laws which were bent or ignored. All of us know
individuals who practice their citizenship by voting three, four, or
five times in each election. Many of us have seen our parents offered
money for 'cab fare' in order to get them to the polls. Any ideas as to
how many minority voters will be paid to vote in November? My guess
would be a higher percentage than you would believe possible.
But let anyone suggest that someone from the outside might possibly
have interfered with the right of a minority voter, and it all comes
to a screeching halt. Welfare Moms who take the cash, but can't be
bothered with voting, come up with the usual excuse, someone they
didn't know did something which caused them not to be able to vote.
My favorite being the white guy in suit and tie who tells Welfare Mom
that the polls are closed. Although no one else in the project saw
anything close to this, and the chance of such a person making past
the front door without being mugged are nill to impossible, Welfare
Mom has to be telling the truth, because - after all - she is the
member of a respected minority. When you read about the incident
in the paper the next day it will change to a company of probably
armed right wing disrupters are using terror to prevent poor voters
from reaching the polls. Damn those bastards!
James Martinez
> intimidation and the usual right wing shills are out here trying to respin
> the facts.
It doesn't happen. Although Joseph Gobbles set the standard by noting
that if you tell a lie enough times, it becomes the truth. And
anecdotal 'evidence' without either merit or substantiation has to be
taken as fact.
The arrogance which perpetuates such nonsence is the same self-importance
which allows New York protesters to interfere with the rights of others.
'Our cause gives us the priority to impede your civil liberties.' You
claim the political right has two sets of standards, although they would
be very hard pressed to do it better than the pretentious left.
Gandalf Grey
> > Translation: The AFL-CIO is legitimately concerned about right wing
voter
> > intimidation and the usual right wing shills are out here trying to
respin
> > the facts.
>
> It doesn't happen.
Bullshit.
Gandalf Grey
> >>> including pernicious efforts to keep them away from the polls," said
> >>> Julian Bond, board chairman of the National Assn. for the Advancement
> >>> of Colored People. <snip>
>
> >> Garbage. Total absolute and complete garbage.
>
> > All evidence to the contrary.
>
> Anyone who was raised in a lower class minority community can tell you
> accounts of voting laws which were bent or ignored.
And also tell you about voter intimidation.
Sell your trash somewhere else, fascist. I'm not buying it.
Gandalf Grey
> > "T.Carr" <TCarr...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:8c213b2e.04081...@posting.google.com...
> > > > "T.Carr" <TCarr...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:8c213b2e.04081...@posting.google.com...
> > > > > > "T.Carr" <TCarr...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:8c213b2e.04081...@posting.google.com...
> > > > > > > > "T.Carr" <TCarr...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:8c213b2e.04080...@posting.google.com...
> > > > With both history and logic being on my side, I think I'll take my
facts
James Martinez
wing
>>> voter intimidation and the usual right wing shills are out here
>>> trying to respin the facts.
>> It doesn't happen.
> Bullshit.
Accusations, innuendos, and complaints of very questionable merit,
all of which are treated by the media as facts. Somehow, someplace,
someone was able to interfere with a minority voter. You read it,
you're incensed that the political right (and who else could it be?)
would utilize such lowly tactics, and you file the information away as
fact. Of course you never will read a follow-up which verifies the
complaint, and will never see a report on the evening news from their
investigative reporter -- who was unable to find any merit in the
complaint. But all of that doesn't matter. You are convinced that it
had to have happened. Julian Bond and the rest of the ethnic and
racial pundits swear that this happens all the time. So it has to be
true. And so the stories then get embellished and continue to
circulate.
After the 2000 election I recall the interview with a minority female
living in Brower County, Florida. Interviewed while sitting in her
car, she stated that she was pulled over by the highway patrol for no
reason, and that delay prevented her from voting. Commenting after
the report, Dan Rather was appropriately outraged that such could take
place. No questions as to how the law enforcement people were able to
see into the car considering it was almost night time and the windows
had heavy tint, no comments about how anyone could know that she was
on her way to vote, and no one asked to see a citation in order to
help verify her complaint. Never the less, it's now all fact.
Although more probable was something like this:
Still in possession of the crisp $20 she received this morning for
'cab fare', our potential voter rolls into the parking lot half an
hour after the official closing of the polls. No problem, because you
can use the back door and vote as late at 10:00pm. But this time
there are a bunch of reporters wandering around and some are heading
over to your car. Time to swear out loud and go with plan 'B'.
And as one who grew up in something less than affluency, I can tell
you that no one does a better job at acting than do welfare
recipients. Those in this group turns in Academy Award winning
preformances on a daily basis, and all without the recognition they
deserve.
And I will also let you in on a secret: You want to end poverty and
welfare? Just pass legislation that those receiving welfare and
ineligible to vote. Which makes sense to a certain degree as they are
not supporting the government to which the rest of us pay taxes.
Granted, such legislation will never happen. But if it did, you would
see the elimination of poverty occur at warp speed. And regardless
about what your political affiliation expounds about advancing the
opportunities of those lowest on the socio-economic scale (which is
why your party is strongly opposed to school vouchers in the poorest
areas) poverty will _never_ be eliminated so long as it serves as a
political asset.
Gandalf Grey
> >>> Translation: The AFL-CIO is legitimately concerned about right
> wing
> >>> voter intimidation and the usual right wing shills are out here
> >>> trying to respin the facts.
>
> >> It doesn't happen.
>
> > Bullshit.
>
> Accusations, innuendos, and complaints of very questionable merit,
> all of which are treated by the media as facts.
More bullshit. Most of the time, the reports are one day cycled and then
dumped without followup or investigation by the media. Voter intimidation
has happened and IS happening in this country RIGHT NOW, and it's
orchestrated by the GOP. You're like a serial killer saying "I'm not doing
anything" while we watch you decapitate your next victim.
James Martinez
> More bullshit. Most of the time, the reports are one day cycled and then
> dumped without followup or investigation by the media. Voter intimidation
> has happened and IS happening in this country RIGHT NOW, and it's
> orchestrated by the GOP. You're like a serial killer saying "I'm not doing
> anything" while we watch you decapitate your next victim.
From your comments all readers will have to assume that you were raised in
a particularly poor neighborhood (we got indoor plumbing when I was in
high school, how about you?) and saw your community prevented from going
to the polls by those nasty GOP types.
As you address that, also speak about those you knew who voted half a
dozen times, mention how everyone is the neighborhood was provided with
$10 by the Democratic Party machine to pay for cab fare to the poll,
remark about how a poll worker would be the first in the voting booths
and use a colored marker to indicate the selections voters were expected
to make. And don't forget to mention that voting hours were treated
only as a suggestion. Go ahead and vote a day or two early if you find
that easier with your schedule. If you can't address circumstances such
as these you have no business speaking about how others may have impacted
voting in the less affluent areas of this country.
> Most of the time, the reports are one day cycled and then
> dumped without followup or investigation by the media.
So you agree that such nonsence receives immediate media coverage as
news, but then does not receive any follow-up to actually verify the
complaint. But since it may be published for only a day or so that
makes it -- what, legitimate?
And thanks a bunch for Great Society and the follow-ups to this
disaster. You can pat yourselves on the back knowing that your social
welfare programs has so far set my community back by at least two
generations. And guaranteed future minority wards of the state for
years and years to come.
Gandalf Grey
> >> Accusations, innuendos, and complaints of very questionable merit,
> >> all of which are treated by the media as facts. <snip?
>
> > More bullshit. Most of the time, the reports are one day cycled and
then
> > dumped without followup or investigation by the media. Voter
intimidation
> > has happened and IS happening in this country RIGHT NOW, and it's
> > orchestrated by the GOP. You're like a serial killer saying "I'm not
doing
> > anything" while we watch you decapitate your next victim.
>
> From your comments all readers will have to assume that you were raised
in
> a particularly poor neighborhood
No. They'd just assume that I went through my life with my eyes open and
not with my head bent down and eyes glued to right wing tabloids.
James Martinez
>> in a particularly poor neighborhood
> No. They'd just assume that I went through my life with my eyes open
> and not with my head bent down and eyes glued to right wing tabloids.
Unfortunate that you were not privileged to grow up in moderate
circumstances, where you would have had a front row seat to watch the damage
caused by the social engineering of your favorite political affiliation.
And while you are busy ignoring the tabloids, ask some serious questions of
the propaganda produced by your party. Request proof that past social welfare
programs actually worked -- before you support new spending on such.
Gandalf Grey
raised
> >> in a particularly poor neighborhood
>
> > No. They'd just assume that I went through my life with my eyes open
> > and not with my head bent down and eyes glued to right wing tabloids.
>
> Unfortunate that you were not privileged to grow up in moderate
> circumstances
Why do righties immediately move to the pretence of mind-reading when they
try to defend their disreputable ideology? Are you really THAT lacking in
actual arguments?
How do you know what my background is? How could you know? Do you have any
idea how 1.stupid and 2.arrogant your remark above demonstrates you to be?
James Martinez
> try to defend their disreputable ideology? Are you really THAT lacking in
> actual arguments?
OK, How's this?
I was in high school when the Great Society of LBJ arrived, and with it began
the downward spiral in my community which continues to this day. I listened
to the Democrats blame all our woes on Republicans and 'racists', and heard
that we were now 'victims' and the government was responsible for making sure
that we received compensation. If we failed at school it was now 'cultural'
and not our lack of motivation. We were now a distinct population and could
not be expected to be successful in a 'white mans' school system.
In my community, thanks to the Great Society, we now have massive drug abuse,
an obscene teen pregnancy rate, a high school graduation rate which has been
sinking for the past forty years, gangs which believe that beating elderly
people to death is a sign of their manhood, and a crime rate which manages to
reach a new high with each passing year. As well as a population which is
becoming, for the most part, unemployable. And no one sees the connection!?
The explanation we continue to hear is that all of our failures are due
to Republicans and 'racists'. And our only hope is for more government
intervention and government control of our lives.
> How do you know what my background is? How could you know? Do you have any
> idea how 1.stupid and 2.arrogant your remark above demonstrates you to be?
My guess is that you have probably not ever come to within site of a
true low SES minority community. But you hear about all these grandiose
social programs and assume that the political left is the savior for all the
poor in this country. The left has come to see its basic constituency as
the poor, and now seems to want to do anything it can to expand those ranks.
The left has decided that schooling is the same as education, and learning is
solely dependent upon funding and the unionization of teachers. A political
philosophy which recognizes that its' best chance of survival is to dumb down
the next generation; replacing education with indoctrination, and discourse
with political correctness.
Edw
Nothing has changed in government in the 40 years since the Great Society?
You smehow rose above the preaching of the left, but virtually no-one else
did? What makes you so much better than everybody else?
Who says the failures are blamed on racists and Republicans? I don't.
No-one I know does. Why do entire classes of people fail - bad zip codes?
>
>
> > How do you know what my background is? How could you know? Do you have
any
> > idea how 1.stupid and 2.arrogant your remark above demonstrates you to
be?
>
> My guess is that you have probably not ever come to within site of a
> true low SES minority community. But you hear about all these grandiose
> social programs and assume that the political left is the savior for all
the
> poor in this country. The left has come to see its basic constituency as
> the poor, and now seems to want to do anything it can to expand those
ranks.
>
> The left has decided that schooling is the same as education, and
learning is
> solely dependent upon funding and the unionization of teachers. A
political
> philosophy which recognizes that its' best chance of survival is to dumb
down
> the next generation; replacing education with indoctrination, and
discourse
> with political correctness.
One very obvious difference between suburban schools and old-city schools is
the level of funding, as most schools are funded by property taxes.
Coincidently, success rates are higher in the better-funded schools.
Most Liberals are educated beyond high school. The assertion that
Liberalism thrives on ignorance is yet another mark of your air of
superiority, and nothing else. You say education has been replaced by
indoctrination. So, you got your education by disbelieving what you heard
in school? Or were you somehow magically gifted with the ability to analyze
information, an ability withheld from your (not quite) peers?
If you feel that civility is a restraint on discussion, you're not as wise
as you think.
Gandalf Grey
they
> > try to defend their disreputable ideology? Are you really THAT lacking
in
> > actual arguments?
>
> OK, How's this?
>
> I was in high school when the Great Society of LBJ arrived, and with it
began
> the downward spiral in my community which continues to this day.
That's rough. I wonder if it had something to do with you living there.
> I listened
> to the Democrats blame all our woes on Republicans and 'racists'
No you didn't.
>, and heard
> that we were now 'victims' and the government was responsible for making
sure
> that we received compensation. If we failed at school it was now
'cultural'
> and not our lack of motivation. We were now a distinct population and
could
> not be expected to be successful in a 'white mans' school system.
>
> In my community, thanks to the Great Society, we now have massive drug
abuse,
> an obscene teen pregnancy rate, a high school graduation rate which has
been
> sinking for the past forty years, gangs which believe that beating elderly
> people to death is a sign of their manhood, and a crime rate which manages
to
> reach a new high with each passing year.
An excellent example of GOPs making sure that democratic programs are
underfunded or otherwise sabotaged.
> As well as a population which is
> becoming, for the most part, unemployable.
George Bush is working hard to make sure that your "neighborhood" will have
plenty of company.
> And no one sees the connection!?
Sure. Right Wingers appealed to single-issue social concern voters who
started voted against their own best interests and handing over more and
more of the country to the richest and the least concerned. Everytime their
paychecks went down they got mad, went to the polls and voted another tax
break for the wealthiest 1% and more corporate welfare.
> The explanation we continue to hear is that all of our failures are due
> to Republicans and 'racists'.
Not every republican is a racist. Most of them tend to hate everyone
regardless of color or creed.
> And our only hope is for more government
> intervention and government control of our lives.
If you don't think so, stop voting for George Bush.
>
>
> > How do you know what my background is? How could you know? Do you have
any
> > idea how 1.stupid and 2.arrogant your remark above demonstrates you to
be?
>
> My guess is that you have probably not ever come to within site of a
> true low SES minority community. But you hear about all these grandiose
> social programs and assume that the political left is the savior for all
the
> poor in this country.
1. You'd be wrong, but then the right tends to base its opinion on guesses
and assumptions rather than research and knowledge.
2. There's no assumption involved. Liberals ARE and always have been most
concerned about the workers and the poor in this country. It's a
fundamental fact. The Right Wing now represents single-issue social voters
and the very rich.
> The left has come to see its basic constituency as
> the poor, and now seems to want to do anything it can to expand those
ranks.
You turned the truth on its head. Liberals KNOW their constituency is the
working class. It's the right wing that's doing whatever it can to expand
the ranks of the poor. Liberals seeks to raise the economic and social
status of EVERYONE in this country. We want the poor to get out of poverty,
the lower middle class to move into the middle class, the middle class to
move into the upper middle class, and the rich to become richer.
Unlike the right wing, our existence doesn't depend on keeping anyone poor
and stupid.
>
> The left has decided that schooling is the same as education, and
learning is
> solely dependent upon funding and the unionization of teachers.
Again, you've stood the truth on its head. The right wing is wholly
dependent on keeping its base intellectually and morally uneducated.
Without an advanced education, the right's base will continue to vote
against its own best interests at every opportunity.
> A political
> philosophy which recognizes that its' best chance of survival is to dumb
down
> the next generation; replacing education with indoctrination, and
discourse
> with political correctness.
You've just described the right wing in a nutshell. Homeschooling is one
part of that plan. More and more religious schools are another part. It's
the American right wings equivalent of the hate schools being operated in
Saudi Arabia. By making sure that public education fails and private
education is the only alternative, the right can substitute indoctrination
for education and create whole new generations of brain-washed dullards more
than willing to rubber stamp the march of conservative elitism and the
oligarchical theocracy that is the real goal of the radical right in
America.
James Martinez
>>> they try to defend their disreputable ideology? Are you really THAT
>>> lacking in actual arguments?
>> OK, How's this?
>>
>> I was in high school when the Great Society of LBJ arrived, and with it
>> began the downward spiral in my community which continues to this day.
> That's rough. I wonder if it had something to do with you living there.
And I can tell that you grew up where the streets were dirt and the outhouse
was a convenient twelve steps from the back door. Typical political left,
you have no idea as to our living circumstances, but you do have the
arrogance to tell us how to fix our problems and how to run our lives.
And any failures have nothing to do with your social engineering because
they were actually suppose to help us. So the problem must be someplace
else.
>> I listened to the Democrats blame all our woes on Republicans
>> and 'racists'
> No you didn't.
The DNC must love you. You didn't live it but you know how it had to have
happened.
And please note that I am not a republican. And never have been. I did
change my voting registration from Democrat to <nothing> after deciding
that more government intervention is the worst possible way to address
what the left preceives as problems with minorities.
James Martinez
Of course you're not. You were raised under poor circumstances in
a minority community and are well aware of how the political right did
everything possible to keep voters from the polls.
Spend a few years in a border town, and then contact me.
Gandalf Grey
> >>> they try to defend their disreputable ideology? Are you really THAT
> >>> lacking in actual arguments?
>
> >> OK, How's this?
> >>
> >> I was in high school when the Great Society of LBJ arrived, and with
it
> >> began the downward spiral in my community which continues to this day.
>
> > That's rough. I wonder if it had something to do with you living there.
>
> And I can tell that you grew up where the streets were dirt and the
outhouse
> was a convenient twelve steps from the back door.
Unfortunately, you can't "tell" a damned thing. You've got no argument and
so you have to pretend to be able to read minds.
Gandalf Grey
>
> Of course you're not.
Best to have left it there,,,,because....
> You were raised under poor circumstances in
> a minority community
Wrong yet again. That's your problem. You only THINK you can read minds.
James Martinez
> and so you have to pretend to be able to read minds.
My argument is that I had a front row seat to observe the massive and
also rather obvious failures of Great Society and later social welfare
programs. And my response: THEY DON'T WORK.
Secondly, the media does minorities a major disservice by refusing to
report on the failed results of this federal government intrusions.
The press has found it convenient to look the other way for the past
40 years.
Third, lower graduation rates, an obscene teen pregnancy rate, climbing
crime rates, and a yearly exponential climb in drug abuse, can be directly
traced to the end results of these social welfare programs.
And before you offer your opinion, remember that these programs were
developed and administered by individuals who never spent one day living
in the circumstances they believe they are successfully addressing.
If you see no problem in that you should allow the less affluent minority
communities direct social engineering for middle and upper class non-
minorities.
James Martinez
> Wrong yet again. That's your problem. You only THINK you can read minds.
Without addressing your background you have found that you have the
answer to the poorer minority communities in this country. Would it be
too much to ask if you had ever driven through a less affluent minority
community?
My guess is that you are using the media as your source of information,
and that gives you the right to tell us how we should live our lives.
Gandalf Grey
> > Unfortunately, you can't "tell" a damned thing. You've got no argument
> > and so you have to pretend to be able to read minds.
>
> My argument is that I had a front row seat to observe the massive and
> also rather obvious failures of Great Society and later social welfare
> programs. And my response: THEY DON'T WORK.
And the problem with your approach is that your opinion has about as much
value as any other individual uneducated opinion. ZERO.
Gandalf Grey
First I live in a dirt road minority neighborhood, now I only get
information from the media.
What a laugh. James' Mindreading impression goes on.
When you want to stop acting like a moron, let me know.
Paul Middlestat
>> also rather obvious failures of Great Society and later social welfare
>> programs. And my response: THEY DON'T WORK.
> And the problem with your approach is that your opinion has about as much
> value as any other individual uneducated opinion. ZERO.
I have been following this thread and have to score it as James the
winner. He was able to make a valid argument for his opinions instead
of resorting to name calling or claims of 'mind reading'? Which I
did not quite understand. Gandalf needs to provide some response that
the social programs which James regards as failures were - in fact -
a success. (And good luck with that).
James Martinez
>> answer to the poorer minority communities in this country. Would it be
>> too much to ask if you had ever driven through a less affluent minority
>> community?
>> My guess is that you are using the media as your source of information,
>> and that gives you the right to tell us how we should live our lives.
> First I live in a dirt road minority neighborhood, now I only get
> information from the media.
> What a laugh. James' Mindreading impression goes on.
> When you want to stop acting like a moron, let me know.
Then instead of this 'mindreading' nonsence, make the case that 40 years
of social engineering by the federal government has been an unequivocal
success.
Or else shut the hell up and admit that you support such programs due to
you political indoctrination, although you have no experince with such and
have no idea as to their end result.