The Self-Destruction of Orlin Grabbe
Wayne McGuire
self-immolation on the Internet I've ever seen. Orlin Grabbe has
apparently devoted many months to ruining his credibility and
reputation utterly. He will never again be treated with anything but
contempt. He might just as well have poured gasoline all over himself
and lit a match.
So what's going on?
A number of possibilities:
1. Grabbe is a brilliant prankster and gifted fantasist who has been
amusing himself for many months by spinning tall tales and smoking out
all the conspiracy crazies on the net.
Based on private email I've exchanged with the man, I strongly doubt
this explanation. The intonations of his previous messages do not
leave me with this impression.
2. Grabbe is a vicious sociopath or a pathological liar or paranoid
schizophrenic or mad hatter or all four wrapped into one.
This seems a bit more likely than the first explanation: who, for
instance, but a vicious sociopath would be laughing about his role in
helping to destroy the career and life of Jim Norman? Funny stuff, for
a sociopath.
3. Grabbe finally realized that he has been duped by his intelligence
sources. He feels like a fool for having been taken in, and is trying
to hide his humiliation and embarrassment by pretending to be a
brilliant prankster who has duped and humiliated his victims. He's
attempting to transfer his embarrassment to others.
4. Grabbe is a disinformation specialist working for the bad guys who
has mixed up bizarre untruths with truths, in order to discredit the
truth.
Note that Grabbe has left disinformation and lies in his apology: I
asked Roger Morris and Sally Denton if they had relied on Grabbe for
their information about Bill Clinton and the CIA, and they said no.
5. Grabbe has had the ever-living shit scared out of him by the bad
guys--they managed to get to him. They have allowed him to hold on to
a fig leaf of dignity by passing himself off as a clever prankster,
while achieving their main goal of inflicting severe damage on the
credibility of everything Grabbe has ever said. They are
metaphorically holding a gun to his head and demanding that he clean
up the mess he has made for them.
In support of this theory, notice the hysterical and involuted sarcasm
in his apology, which differs greatly from his usual razor-sharp
irony. He appears to be under enormous stress in that post, and
perhaps under duress as well.
With regard to the timing of Grabbe's dramatic change of heart, I note
that it occurs after controversy about a possible Mossad role in
Whitewater reached a fever pitch, based on Grabbe's claims about a
sensitive videotape.
In any case, the man has now been ruined, either by his own innate
weirdness or by the pressure of others. He will probably never dare to
show his face on the Internet again.
If any one has any insights about Grabbe based on private
communications with him, let me know. The tone of his apology differs
markedly from the tone of earlier private messages I've received from
him.
A personal note: I've always been highly skeptical about the Fifth
Column story, and have repeatedly pressed Grabbe and Norman to offer
even the least shred of proof for their assertions. They always came
up empty-handed. My take on the situation was that the two of them
possibly had conventional intelligence sources for their information
(not renegade hackers roaming the country with a secret Cray), and
were using the Fifth Column story as a cover or device to disseminate
some true information. Now everything about these two gentlemen is in
doubt.
Any way you look at it, something strange has just transpired.
This entire exercise in its final outcome has been pure poison from
the standpoint of attempting to work through to the truth about
Whitewater. It's obvious who has benefited from it.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcg...@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/
Billy Beck
wmcg...@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>Any way you look at it, something strange has just transpired.
6. He's frustrated with the pace of developments, frantic over
out-of-hand dismissals of his propositions by those credulous of
tenth-grade civics, and pissed off at the whole affair?
Possible?
7. He's simply outraged by bland assertions and rote reporting of
another "rogue trader", to the point of an ordinary human tirade
expounding on Wilhelm Reich's observation of the structure of the
average man's mind?
Whaddya think?
Take it from me: #7 can happen to the best of us.
Billy
http://www.mindspring.com/~wjb3/free/free.html
Rant - June 16, 1996
John Q. Public
>
> We've just witnessed one of the most spectacular acts of
> self-immolation on the Internet I've ever seen.
I don't think so.
>
> If any one has any insights about Grabbe based on private
> communications with him, let me know.
OK.
I think he's back in the game.
Ross LaGue
(Wayne McGuire) wrote:
> We've just witnessed one of the most spectacular acts of
> apparently devoted many months to ruining his credibility and
> reputation utterly. He will never again be treated with anything but
> contempt. He might just as well have poured gasoline all over himself
> and lit a match.
>
> So what's going on?
>
> A number of possibilities:
>
> This entire exercise in its final outcome has been pure poison from
> the standpoint of attempting to work through to the truth about
> Whitewater. It's obvious who has benefited from it.
>
On the contrary, Wayne, I must disagree with this. As somebody once
said, "if it doesn't kill me, it will make me stronger."
I am not certain of Grabbe's motives, but certainly I know that some
libertarian types are of a strange breed who don't feel it necessary
to follow the rules of the established political culture. However, a
valuable lesson is here for those seeking truth in the events known
as Whitewater.
--
Ross LaGue < r...@erinet.com > Dayton, Ohio
Wayne McGuire
>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>>
>> We've just witnessed one of the most spectacular acts of
>> self-immolation on the Internet I've ever seen.
>
>I don't think so.
Do you think any intelligent person is going to give Grabbe the time
of day at this point? The man can't distinguish fantasy from reality,
or is disseminating disinformation for one party or another.
It is one thing to write literary fantasy and satire; it is quite
another thing to make factual assertions in private mail about an
on-going real-world investigation of the most serious kind.
Grabbe no doubt sent hundreds of private messages similar to the
following:
--- BEGIN ---
To: Wayne McGuire <wmcg...@cybercom.net>
Subject: Re: Mossad
From: Orlin Grabbe <kall...@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 10:16:49 -0800
--=====================_828655689==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:17 AM 4/4/96 -0500, you wrote:
>You wrote the following:
>
>-----
>As for the Mossad and Foster: there is an on-going national
>security investigation into the death of Foster, continuing from
>before his death when he was selling information to the Mossad. Did
>you know there is a videotape of a 3-person Mossad team emerging from
>Foster's apartment on July 20, 1993, the afternoon he was killed.
>Copies exist in the hands of the CIA, FBI, FEMA, and the Inspector
>General's office.
>-----
>
>I'm curious: is this verifiable? How do you know it is true?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Wayne
>--
>Wayne McGuire
>wmcg...@cybercom.net
>http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/index.html
>
Well, I know about it because I am in close contact with some of the
people conducting the National Security investigation. But you can
try calling the Inspector General's office, GSA Region 1, 10 Causeway
St., Boston, MA 02222, (617) 565-5860. However, I suspect they will
pretend to know nothing about an on-going investigation. In the
meantime, you might ask youself what NSA is doing with the 700
Vince-Foster-related documents they have admitted to (under FOIA
request from Washington Weekly), which however they have kept to edit
for "reasons of National Security". Why would NSA have all these
Foster-related Documents? Why are they a matter of National Security?
I'm attaching a copy of my latest article for your interest.
Orlin
--- END ---
The list of powerful enemies he has made at this point by making wild
charges must be long.
Gary Frazier
>We've just witnessed one of the most spectacular acts of
>self-immolation on the Internet I've ever seen. Orlin Grabbe has
>apparently devoted many months to ruining his credibility and
>reputation utterly. He will never again be treated with anything but
>contempt. He might just as well have poured gasoline all over himself
>and lit a match.
>So what's going on?
>A number of possibilities:
>1. Grabbe is a brilliant prankster and gifted fantasist who has been
>If any one has any insights about Grabbe based on private
>communications with him, let me know. The tone of his apology differs
>markedly from the tone of earlier private messages I've received from
>him.
>A personal note: I've always been highly skeptical about the Fifth
>Column story, and have repeatedly pressed Grabbe and Norman to offer
>even the least shred of proof for their assertions. They always came
>up empty-handed. My take on the situation was that the two of them
>possibly had conventional intelligence sources for their information
>(not renegade hackers roaming the country with a secret Cray), and
>were using the Fifth Column story as a cover or device to disseminate
>some true information. Now everything about these two gentlemen is in
>doubt.
>Any way you look at it, something strange has just transpired.
>This entire exercise in its final outcome has been pure poison from
>the standpoint of attempting to work through to the truth about
>Whitewater. It's obvious who has benefited from it.
Of course, the posibility exists that Grabbe was just having a shitload
of fun leading loons like you on.
But of course, this never occured to you.
--
Gary
Billy Beck
r...@erinet.com (Ross LaGue) wrote:
> I am not certain of Grabbe's motives, but certainly I know that some
>libertarian types are of a strange breed who don't feel it necessary
>to follow the rules of the established political culture.
Yo, Ross:
Go examine the "established political culture". Look around you.
Check your premise, and *then* tell me what is "strange".
Ross LaGue
wrote:
>
> r...@erinet.com (Ross LaGue) wrote:
>
> > I am not certain of Grabbe's motives, but certainly I know that some
> >libertarian types are of a strange breed who don't feel it necessary
> >to follow the rules of the established political culture.
>
> Yo, Ross:
>
> Go examine the "established political culture". Look around you.
>
> Check your premise, and *then* tell me what is "strange".
>
>
hey Billy... the premises that I intended were:
"strange" is relative to "established political culture".
I consider myself somewhat libertarian.
Let the Grabbe lesson sink in some more.
<grin>
Michael Talley
>We've just witnessed one of the most spectacular acts of
>self-immolation on the Internet I've ever seen. Orlin Grabbe has
>apparently devoted many months to ruining his credibility and
>reputation utterly. He will never again be treated with anything but
>contempt. He might just as well have poured gasoline all over himself
>and lit a match.
>So what's going on?
So let me get this straight. You're saying that people actually give
a *shit* about what's said on the net? I mean, come on, it's not like
the guy is giving out bad Microsoft Word macro commands!
Michael Talley mta...@airmail.net
*************************************
* My God....... *
* It's full of Stars! *
* *
* --David Bowman-- *
*************************************
Billy Beck
wmcg...@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>It is one thing to write literary fantasy and satire; it is quite
>another thing to make factual assertions in private mail about an
>on-going real-world investigation of the most serious kind.
....and yet a third thing to *refute* the assertions.
(patiently drumming fingers on the table top)
Wayne McGuire
> wmcg...@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>>It is one thing to write literary fantasy and satire; it is quite
>>another thing to make factual assertions in private mail about an
>>on-going real-world investigation of the most serious kind.
> ....and yet a third thing to *refute* the assertions.
> (patiently drumming fingers on the table top)
If someone were to charge Orlin Grabbe with being a heroin addict, a
KGB agent and a pedophile, would be it be the job of Orlin Grabbe to
refute these assertions or the job of the person who made the charges
to support them with proof?
And that is Orlin Grabbe's main problem: he has produced not a
particle of proof to support any of his charges and claims. Until he
starts backing up his claims with evidence, he should be ignored.
I am surprised he is not worried about libel issues.
Gary Clark
<snip>
> I am not certain of Grabbe's motives, but certainly I know that some
>libertarian types are of a strange breed who don't feel it necessary
>to follow the rules of the established political culture. However, a
>valuable lesson is here for those seeking truth in the events known
>as Whitewater.
It is precisely those so-called "rules of the established political
culture" you speak of that are the long and short of most of what's
wrong in America. To those who seek to operate outside those so-called
"rules," more power to them.
Gary Clark
--
===================== GARY CLARK - LAS VEGAS, NEVADA USA ==================
Feminizm and Nazism were both created by a small band of malcontents who
told lie-after-lie to create the myth that one group of people was being
victimized by another. "Gentiles are the victims of Jews" was the Nazi lie. |
"Women are the victims of men" is the lie of the feminizt.
==================== E-MAIL ADDRESS: wtw...@ix.netcom.com ================
Billy Beck
wmcg...@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>I am surprised he is not worried about libel issues.
Perhaps there is a premise to be checked, here.
John Pittman Hey
>We've just witnessed one of the most spectacular acts of
>self-immolation on the Internet I've ever seen. Orlin Grabbe has
>apparently devoted many months to ruining his credibility and
>reputation utterly. He will never again be treated with anything but
>contempt. He might just as well have poured gasoline all over himself
>and lit a match.
>
>So what's going on?
>
>A number of possibilities:
>
[five possibilities snipped]
>This entire exercise in its final outcome has been pure poison from
>the standpoint of attempting to work through to the truth about
>Whitewater. It's obvious who has benefited from it.
>
>--
>Wayne McGuire
>wmcg...@cybercom.net
>http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/
But, but, but .... (sputter) ...
Look, I have never really believed much of anything Orlin Grabbe wrote
about the Fifth column, the Mossad, etc.,
BUT
You left out the most obvious possibility, to wit: Grabbe's "apology"
is a marvelous spoof, a la Swift's "A Modest Proposal."
Sheesh, I'm getting pretty tired of all the "heavy" analysis of the
Grabbe piece, especially posts that ignore the very good likelihood
that Grabbe is spoofing those (including me) who are sceptical of his
offerings.
JPH--
Edward W. Zehr
Joe Cesarone
I think you have missed the point of Orlin's "apology". Can
you say "tongue-in-cheek"!?!? It was merely a sarcastic
response to his critics who claim he is a disinformation
specialist. You claim he will never show his face again
on the internet; well, he already has; check out the latest
Conspiracy Nation. As far as Morris and Denton go, please
cite where Grabbe has claimed that they based their info
regarding Slick's CIA contacts on his own work; I do not know
what you refer to. I am not claiming that I know whether I
whether Grabbe is telling the truth or not, but he has gone
out on the limb (see "ten predictions"); it is matter of
time, just a few months at that, and we will know whether or
not he knows of what he speaks. I have not seen his critics
go out on a limb; why don't you wait to see if Clinton and
Dole drop out of the race before saying that Grabbe is full
of shit? His predictions regarding the number of FBI files
are already coming true. If either Dole or Clinton remains
in the race and wins, then I'll be the first say you were
(at least partially) right about Grabbe.
-Joe Cesarone
Wayne Mann
Joe Cesarone <cesa...@delphi.com> wrote:
HOW do you positively KNOW that as a FACT?
\\/ayne //\ann
"Just the mere _appearance_ of inpropriety demands
that we investigate."
-- Rep. Tom Foley (D-WA), justifying hearings
into October Surprise.
Wayne Mann
>Thus spake Wayne McGuire:
>Also sprach Ross LaGue:
> "Nicht aergern, nur wundern."
>EZ
>
Well some of us are just not smart enough or subtle enough
to distinguish between the two, so at least in my case I
must work from the perspective that I cannot believe a word
he says that I cannot substantiate myself. Previously I
could judge his claims in some cases by how believable they
were and if I thought they fit in with other things I
believed. I don't have that luxury any more. Now he MUST
prove anything before I will even consider it. Now some of
you are so much more subtle and smarter than I, so that
enables you to perceive the facts out of this that I cannot
see, so you have an advantage. Thank you.
Roger B Olsen
In <4r752t$d...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> wdm...@ix.netcom.com (Wayne Mann)
writes:
>Joe Cesarone <cesa...@delphi.com> wrote:
>
>>Hey Wayne:
>>
>>I think you have missed the point of Orlin's "apology". Can
>>you say "tongue-in-cheek"!?!? It was merely a sarcastic
>>response to his critics who claim he is a disinformation
>>specialist. You claim he will never show his face again
>>on the internet; well, he already has; check out the latest
>>Conspiracy Nation. As far as Morris and Denton go, please
>>cite where Grabbe has claimed that they based their info
>>regarding Slick's CIA contacts on his own work; I do not know
>>what you refer to. I am not claiming that I know whether I
>>whether Grabbe is telling the truth or not, but he has gone
>>out on the limb (see "ten predictions"); it is matter of
>>time, just a few months at that, and we will know whether or
>>not he knows of what he speaks. I have not seen his critics
>>go out on a limb; why don't you wait to see if Clinton and
>>Dole drop out of the race before saying that Grabbe is full
>>of shit? His predictions regarding the number of FBI files
>>are already coming true. If either Dole or Clinton remains
>>in the race and wins, then I'll be the first say you were
>>(at least partially) right about Grabbe.
>>
>>-Joe Cesarone
>
> HOW do you positively KNOW that as a FACT?
>
>
>
>\\/ayne //\ann
>
>
Do you question the existence of truth Wayne. You are not using that
word. I'll bet Orlin knows the truth (subjectively, of course) or does
he.
RBO
Doug Bebb
Wayne McGuire wrote:
<SNIP>
> And that is Orlin Grabbe's main problem: he has produced not a
> particle of proof to support any of his charges and claims. Until he
> starts backing up his claims with evidence, he should be ignored.
This is not true. Some evidence, although too little for my liking,
did get published in Media Bypass Magazine.
In one of these cases pictues of some cheques were included with an
article by Jim Norman. These apparently support some of Grabbe's
alllegations against Mellon Bank.
Larry-Jennie
Neither Norman nor Grabbe have ever followed up on the case that
they alleged was occurring.
Was the lawsuit real? No one has corroborated this, as far as I
know.
What were the results?
Messrs. Norman and Grabbe are known to read this newsgroup. Please
fill in the record.
Larry
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
The CIA cocaine smuggling on behalf of the Contras
through Mena, Arkansas corrupted the Presidencies
of Bill Clinton, George Bush and Ronald Reagan.
For details, see:
ftp://pencil.cs.missouri.edu/pub/mena/
http://www.mixi.net/~feustel/
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
John Q. Public
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> In article <31DADE...@pro.net> Doug Bebb <db...@pro.net> writes:
> >Wayne McGuire wrote:
>
> ><SNIP>
> >
> >> And that is Orlin Grabbe's main problem: he has produced not a
> >> particle of proof to support any of his charges and claims. Until he
> >> starts backing up his claims with evidence, he should be ignored.
>
> >This is not true. Some evidence, although too little for my liking,
> >did get published in Media Bypass Magazine.
>
> >In one of these cases pictues of some cheques were included with an
> >article by Jim Norman. These apparently support some of Grabbe's
> >alllegations against Mellon Bank.
>
> Neither Norman nor Grabbe have ever followed up on the case that
> they alleged was occurring.
>
> Was the lawsuit real? No one has corroborated this, as far as I
> know.
>
> What were the results?
>
> Messrs. Norman and Grabbe are known to read this newsgroup. Please
> fill in the record.
>
As a potential witness, Grabbe cannot comment on the case.
Larry-Jennie
>Larry-Jennie wrote:
>>
>> In article <31DADE...@pro.net> Doug Bebb <db...@pro.net> writes:
>> >Wayne McGuire wrote:
>> >
>> >> And that is Orlin Grabbe's main problem: he has produced not a
>> >> particle of proof to support any of his charges and claims. Until he
>> >> starts backing up his claims with evidence, he should be ignored.
Doug Bebb wrote:
>> >This is not true. Some evidence, although too little for my liking,
>> >did get published in Media Bypass Magazine.
>>
>> >In one of these cases pictues of some cheques were included with an
>> >article by Jim Norman. These apparently support some of Grabbe's
>> >alllegations against Mellon Bank.
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>> Neither Norman nor Grabbe have ever followed up on the case that
>> they alleged was occurring.
>>
>> Was the lawsuit real? No one has corroborated this, as far as I
>> know.
>>
>> What were the results?
>>
>> Messrs. Norman and Grabbe are known to read this newsgroup. Please
>> fill in the record.
John Q. Public wrote:
>As a potential witness, Grabbe cannot comment on the case.
For background:
In the October, 1995 issue of MEDIA BYPASS, James Norman wrote
"Ye Shall Know the Truth .. and the Truth Shall Get You Fired."
He described how Foster had Swiss Bank accounts and how retired CIA
hacker Charles S. Hayes withdrew the money.
The evidence Norman presented was a copy of a check allegedly obtained
by Hayes. This allegedly bolstered the case of the descendants of
James and William Medders that the Mellon Bank defrauded them. It
also allegedly showed that Hayes and his hackers could penetrate the
Mellon Bank.
Orlin Grabbe is a potential witness because he posted to this newsgroup
a 10 letter encrypted account number at Union Bank of Switzerland
found in the records of CIA/DEA/DiA cocaine smuggler Barry Seal.
I would hope in the nine months since this story was written, that
there were some developments.
James Norman is still free to bring the world up to speed on the
lawsuit, the status of the check document allegedly retrieved by
Hayes, and what has happened to investigations into that bank
account Barry Seal had.
Wayne Mann
lar...@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:
>In article <31DADE...@pro.net> Doug Bebb <db...@pro.net> writes:
>>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>><SNIP>
>>
>>> And that is Orlin Grabbe's main problem: he has produced not a
>>> particle of proof to support any of his charges and claims. Until he
>>> starts backing up his claims with evidence, he should be ignored.
>>This is not true. Some evidence, although too little for my liking,
>>did get published in Media Bypass Magazine.
>>In one of these cases pictues of some cheques were included with an
>>article by Jim Norman. These apparently support some of Grabbe's
>>alllegations against Mellon Bank.
>Neither Norman nor Grabbe have ever followed up on the case that
>they alleged was occurring.
>Was the lawsuit real? No one has corroborated this, as far as I
>know.
>What were the results?
>Messrs. Norman and Grabbe are known to read this newsgroup. Please
>fill in the record.
As much as we might like it, Norman and Grabbe don't owe us
anything. If they WANT to provide any evidence, it is up to
them, but it sure is NOT up to us to demand they provide
it. If any of us feel the need for corroboration, then it
is up to us to get it, NOT expect to just demand it from
them and expect them to provide it. Thank you.
\\/ayne //\ann
Democrat, Rep. James Traficant (D-OH) who referred to the
effort in Congress to limit the definition of wetlands by saying
"if a dog accidentally passes water on a parking lot, some
government agent might deem it to be a wetland."
jmcclain
wdm...@ix.netcom.com (Wayne Mann) wrote:
> As much as we might like it, Norman and Grabbe don't owe us
>anything. If they WANT to provide any evidence, it is up to
>them, but it sure is NOT up to us to demand they provide
>it. If any of us feel the need for corroboration, then it
>is up to us to get it, NOT expect to just demand it from
>them and expect them to provide it. Thank you.
My third set of thanks goes to Mr. Mann, who is out here day & night
taking on the pablum that passes for thought from the back2bus crowd.
In addition, he asks important questions and ***never gives up.***
Thank you very much, Mr. Mann. Happy Independence Day!
--
jmcclain
jmcc...@atl.mindspring.com
Wayne Mann
jmcc...@atl.mindspring.com (jmcclain) wrote:
>wdm...@ix.netcom.com (Wayne Mann) wrote:
>--
>jmcclain
>jmcc...@atl.mindspring.com
I appreciate your sentiments, but all I do is just say what
I think. Sometimes I;m right and sometimes wrong, but I do
try to get more right than wrong. Thanks again, you do a
much better job here than I do. Thank you.
\\/ayne //\ann
Hillary commenting on the release of subpoenaed documents
"I'm not going to have some reporters pawing through our
papers. We are the president."
James B. Stewart - Blood Sport:
Henry Ayre
> You're saying that people actually give a *shit* about what's said on the net?
I suspect that depends on what is said and by whom. Now when it comes to statements
made by Michael Talley, well, I'm not so sure.
(In a discussion about Orlin Grabbe.)