"Mena is not a myth" -- Russell Welch
Larry-Jennie
=>Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 05:38:46 -0600
=>From: truegrit <true...@worldnet.att.net>
=>To: cas list
=>Subject: Mena
=>BB (Bear Bottoms) comment:
=>This testimony belies the allegations that Seal's
=>organization was flying drugs into Mena every other
=>week. Hadaway's interview with a Baton Rouge
=>newspaper proves that the C-123 didn't go anywhere
=>after the Nicaraguan sting. The issues concerning
=>the myth are not being addressed. All of this testimony
=>supports the fact that none of the myth making is true.
=>What I mean by the myth is the CIA, guns, cocaine,
=>Clinton, Lasater, Terry Reed, L.D. Brown, Chip Tatum,
=>Hasanfus, Air America, Southern Air Transport, Tolliver,
=>Morales, Duffey's pilot, a few more pilots, all of the
=>newpaper articles, and all of the conspiracy makers is
=>only hype and not true. We used Mena. Fred Hampton,
=>and Joe Evans were complicit. That is not the myth I
=>am talking about. That is what I want you to address.
=>I want you to tell the truth as the evidence shows, the
=>real evidence, and not the allegations about the Seal/
=>Mena myth as it relates to the popular conspiracy/CIA
=>theory. Nella airport too.
=>Billy:
=>Why don't you lighten up about the Mena Myth thing. Mena is not a myth.
=>You're right, Barry Seal was nothing but a cocaine mule for a group of
=>sleazy cocaine thugs. There was never any evidence that Seal was running
=>guns, that I'm aware. But the fact is that you don't have any idea what
=>has gone on at Mena. I promise you that you don't know everything that
=>Seal was doing in Mena. You flew cocaine for Seal and you had little
=>business in Mena. You contardict yourself over what was taking place
=>beyond mid 1983. I haven't even began to present my case yet; but, you
=>seem to be getting cocky over what you're seeing. Hadaway and Capehart
=>were never apart of my investigation. They weren't even deposed until
=>very late in the investigation; but still, you seem to think that
=>Hampton is a better person and source of information than they were.
=>I've got a serious problem with that. Without Hampton, or somebody else
=>doing the same thing, Seal's method of smuggling could not have been
=>accomplished. Hampton knew this and willingly took part in it. Even now
=>he won't except his responsibility in that organization, like you have.
=>If Hampton will come and say half as much truth as Hadaway and Capehart
=>have, I'll change my opinion. In the mean time, fine, say that, as far
=>as you know, Barry Seal wasn't running guns or working for the CIA. When
=>you say that, you haven't said very much; but, I assume you've said all
=>that you can say. Then leave it alone. For the life of me, Billy,
=>sometimes I don't know what in the hell you're talking about.
=>Russell Welch
John Q. Public
According to Mr. Welch, it will be another couple of weeks before
he posts again, regarding the topic of whatever else Barry Seal
may have done at Mena, and whatever else of interest may be have
been based at Mena, independent of Seal. I am looking forward
to it, somewhat impatiently.
However, unless Mr. Welch decides to contradict himself, he has
characterized Barry Seal thus: "Barry Seal was nothing but a cocaine
mule for a group of sleazy cocaine thugs. There was never any evidence
that Seal was running guns, that I'm aware." In a different post,
Mr. Welch states unequivocally that if Barry Seal had been hauling
guns out of Mena in 1983, 1984, or 1985, the he (Mr. Welch) would
have discovered it.
Unless Mr. Welch has some startling new evidence to present, this
effectively disconnects Barry Seal from a decade's worth of allegations
that he imported cocaine for the CIA, and that he hauled guns for the
CIA, out of Mena. Taken together with the evidence gathered by Bill
Duncan, the Seal myths are dead, and this question must be posed:
Who benefitted from the disinformation campaign?
John Q. Public
There is another possibility. Could Russell Welch himself have
been the victim of misdirection? While he was Seal watching,
was his attention being diverted from some other operation?
Larry-Jennie
>There is another possibility. Could Russell Welch himself have
>been the victim of misdirection? While he was Seal watching,
>was his attention being diverted from some other operation?
John Q. Public *always* has an excuse to say nothing happened
at Mena, despite the evidence and testimony. Sounds like the
White House.
John Q. Public and Bear Bottoms have to distort Russell Welch to
claim Mena had no CIA operations nor narcotics operations immune from
prosecution. Deceptive editing by John Q. Public is required for
them to make their case.
The words of Russell Welch tell the story far more accurately.
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 05:53:12 -0600
From: truegrit <true...@worldnet.att.net>
To: cas list
Subject: Mena
Russell Welch wrote:
> Sheriff Hadaway stated that at the time of this
> incident the runway of the Mena Airport
> was torn up and under construction and it
> was not possible to cross the runway in an
> airplane taxiing. Sheriff Hadaway stated that shortly after
> the Piper Seneca landed, he heard an airplane fire
> up its engines. He observed that this aircraft was in front
> of Freddie Hampton's Hangar. He observed that
> it was a Piper Seneca. He believes it was blue and white
> in color and the tail number was N8049Z. He observed
> the aircraft to rev both engines up to full throttle
> while the pilot stood on the brakes until maximum
> revolutions were obtained at which time the
> pilot released the brakes and the aircraft made a
> short take off from the apron and not the runway.
> He estimated that the aircraft took off in less
> than 300 feet. Shortly after N8049Z took off,
> he contacted his informant and was told
> that the pilot of the aircraft was "Red" Hall
> and the aircraft contained on duffel bag
> of cocaine.
>
> BB comment:
> How would the informant know what was
> in the duffel bag. Red Hall did not haul
> dope. We carried many different types
> of equipment and electronics in duffel
> bags. There was no dope at Mena besides
> the fact that the dope was owned by the
> Colombians and we delivered to them.
> Hall was not involved of this aspect of our
> operation.
Is Bear Bottoms saying that the dope at Mena
was not CIA, instead it was Colombian?
BB, what kind of electronics was Hall hauling?
Let's not forget Welch's post which JQP creatively
edited to change its meaning:
>> > =>Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 05:38:46 -0600
>> > =>From: truegrit <true...@worldnet.att.net>
>> > =>To: cas list
>> > =>Subject: Mena
<snip>
>> > =>Billy:
>> > =>Why don't you lighten up about the Mena Myth thing. Mena is not a myth.
>> > =>You're right, Barry Seal was nothing but a cocaine mule for a group of
>> > =>sleazy cocaine thugs. There was never any evidence that Seal was running
>> > =>guns, that I'm aware. But the fact is that you don't have any idea what
>> > =>has gone on at Mena. I promise you that you don't know everything that
>> > =>Seal was doing in Mena. You flew cocaine for Seal and you had little
>> > =>business in Mena. You contardict yourself over what was taking place
>> > =>beyond mid 1983. I haven't even began to present my case yet; but, you
>> > =>seem to be getting cocky over what you're seeing. Hadaway and Capehart
>> > =>were never apart of my investigation. They weren't even deposed until
>> > =>very late in the investigation; but still, you seem to think that
>> > =>Hampton is a better person and source of information than they were.
>> > =>I've got a serious problem with that. Without Hampton, or somebody else
>> > =>doing the same thing, Seal's method of smuggling could not have been
>> > =>accomplished. Hampton knew this and willingly took part in it. Even now
>> > =>he won't except his responsibility in that organization, like you have.
>> > =>If Hampton will come and say half as much truth as Hadaway and Capehart
>> > =>have, I'll change my opinion. In the mean time, fine, say that, as far
>> > =>as you know, Barry Seal wasn't running guns or working for the CIA. When
>> > =>you say that, you haven't said very much; but, I assume you've said all
>> > =>that you can say. Then leave it alone. For the life of me, Billy,
>> > =>sometimes I don't know what in the hell you're talking about.
>> >
>> > =>Russell Welch
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$ $$
$$ The CIA cocaine smuggling on behalf of the Contras $$
$$ through Mena, Arkansas corrupted the Presidencies $$
$$ of Bill Clinton, George Bush and Ronald Reagan. $$
$$ For details, see: $$
$$ ftp://pencil.cs.missouri.edu/pub/mena/ $$
$$ $$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Michael Rivero
In article <lar-jen.34...@interaccess.com>,
Larry-Jennie <lar...@interaccess.com> wrote:
>In article <3347DF...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com> writes:
>
>>There is another possibility. Could Russell Welch himself have
>>been the victim of misdirection? While he was Seal watching,
>>was his attention being diverted from some other operation?
>
>
>John Q. Public *always* has an excuse to say nothing happened
>at Mena, despite the evidence and testimony. Sounds like the
>White House.
>
Indeed, for more than two years John Q. Public has been insisting that
Mena is a smokescreen for crimes that happened somewhere else, but he has yet
to show us where.
If he and Bottoms were truly interested in helping they would stop telling
us where the drug running isn't and tell us where it is!
--
RANCHO RUNNAMUKKA | Special Effects / Documentary Films
Mike & Claire - The Rancho Runnamukka http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/
The Website is in a major overhaul. New pages added, the rest cleaned up.
John Q. Public
Michael Rivero wrote:
>
> In article <lar-jen.34...@interaccess.com>,
> Larry-Jennie <lar...@interaccess.com> wrote:
> >In article <3347DF...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com> writes:
> >
> >>There is another possibility. Could Russell Welch himself have
> >>been the victim of misdirection? While he was Seal watching,
> >>was his attention being diverted from some other operation?
> >
> >
> >John Q. Public *always* has an excuse to say nothing happened
> >at Mena, despite the evidence and testimony. Sounds like the
> >White House.
> >
>
> Indeed, for more than two years John Q. Public has been insisting that
> Mena is a smokescreen for crimes that happened somewhere else, but he has yet
> to show us where.
I don't know what happened at Mena, and either do you. I don't know
what the Barry Seal myth was covering for, and either do you. I
have now become convinced *by evidence* that the Terry Reed-ish
Seal-Mena
stories *are* myth.
A year ago some inconsistencies and improbabilities began to bother me.
But still six months ago, when the Mercury CIA crack series ran,
I expressed my frustration that there had been no mention of Mena.
Today I know that the details of whatever happened at Mena, or behind
Mena, has been hidden from view by a smokescreen.
There has been a lot of bullshit slung, and a lot of hucksterism
has made some people some money and gained them fame. A decade ago,
Gene Wheaton was telling stories about the "Secret Team" and Barry
Seal. A couple of years ago he was talking about an intel cabal
that controlled Bush and Clinton, Winthrop Rockefeller, Vince Foster's
connection to Mena and the rifling of his body and car for papers by
the CIA.
Let's quit the bs, boys. The Barry Seal story misled us all for a
long time. I repeated it; you repeated it. I have quit, because it
is false. It's time for you to do the same, and to help figure out
who benefitted from it, aside from the hucksters, and how. This does
not mean that nothing happened at Mena, but it does mean that what
we have been told happened at Mena may be false (aside from the
Barry Seal Mena legend, which *is* false), and may be a cover.
A hell of a lot of money cascaded through Arkansas, a number of
people are dead, and the beat goes on and on and on. The late Barry
Seal ain't gonna be providing the easy answers any more.
>
> If he and Bottoms were truly interested in helping they would stop telling
> us where the drug running isn't and tell us where it is!
>
If you and Larry were truly interested in helping you would stop
attacking the messenger who carries the message that we've been
hoodwinked, and regroup, with open eyes, and a determination to
keep from being fooled again.
John Q. Public
Michael Rivero wrote:
>
> In article <lar-jen.34...@interaccess.com>,
> Larry-Jennie <lar...@interaccess.com> wrote:
> >In article <3347DF...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com> writes:
> >
> >>There is another possibility. Could Russell Welch himself have
> >>been the victim of misdirection? While he was Seal watching,
> >>was his attention being diverted from some other operation?
> >
> >
> >John Q. Public *always* has an excuse to say nothing happened
> >at Mena, despite the evidence and testimony. Sounds like the
> >White House.
> >
>
> Indeed, for more than two years John Q. Public has been insisting that
> Mena is a smokescreen for crimes that happened somewhere else, but he has yet
> to show us where.
I don't know what happened at Mena, and either do you. I don't know
what the Barry Seal myth was covering for, and either do you. I
have now become convinced *by evidence* that the Terry Reed-ish
Seal-Mena stories *are* myth.
A year ago some inconsistencies and improbabilities began to bother me.
But still six months ago, when the Mercury CIA crack series ran,
I expressed my frustration that there had been no mention of Mena.
Today I know that the details of whatever happened at Mena, or behind
Mena, have been hidden from view by a smokescreen.
There has been a lot of bullshit slung, and a lot of hucksterism
has made some people some money and gained them fame. A decade ago,
Gene Wheaton was telling stories about the "Secret Team" and Barry
Seal. A couple of years ago he was talking about Winthrop
Rockefeller, an intel cabal that controlled Bush and Clinton,
Lew Glendenning
\
I don't give a damn whether it was a "Barry Seal Myth" or what.
There are some facts:
1) The Federal Reserve identified Arkansas as a state with an excess of
cash. (I don't have a cite, but have read this repeatedly.) This
doesn't happen because tourists spend cash in a vacation paradise. It
probably doesn't happen because Arkansas has lax enforcement of
marajuana growing. (This is an alternative explanation, however.)
2) AEPritchard interviewed Jerry Parks widow, who told him that she
opened the trunk of her husband's car after a trip of his, and it was
full of so much cash she couldn't close it again. She said he said that
he was doing it for Vince Foster, and it was from Mena.
Jerry Parks was killed, possibly by a known State Police associate of
Clintons.
3) Clinton's body guard tied Lassater to Seal, and Clinton to the
knowledge of Seal, and both directly to cocaine in amounts large enough
to fill duffel bags. He and various sources tie Clinton to the CIA,
apparently ever since Cambridge.
4) How much $ was in Seal's Cayman Islands bank account? (I remember a
WSJ article saying $B, others have told me $M.) Why was their secretary
tortured, murdered and the $ moved. This only a few years ago. Can
Bear Bottoms account for his whereabouts when this happened?
5) Lots of evidence of strange banking practices going on, strange
dealings in commodities, etc. accounts, problems of AFDA bonds. All
tied to Clinton and Friends.
No doubt many have extrapolated from the above facts (and a lot more
hard data I don't have on the tip of my brain at this time of night
after dealing with a crying baby 8) far beyond what is warranted.
But, there is a solid core of truth to what you now call the Mena Myth:
Lots of money, cocaine, Barry Seale, Bill Clinton, Mena and the CIA,
tightly associated.
There are problems with this, however, some that none of you have dealt
with. I don't know the timings of the supposed huge amounts of cocaine
money relative to other events in Arkansas, but it certainly seems silly
of the Clintons, for example, to have done such petty crimes as
Whitewater and the S&L looting if they had access to a big cocaine cash
flow.
Lew
Wayne Mann
"John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com> wrote:
>Larry-Jennie wrote:
>>
>> In article <3347DF...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com> writes:
>>
>> >There is another possibility. Could Russell Welch himself have
>> >been the victim of misdirection? While he was Seal watching,
>> >was his attention being diverted from some other operation?
>>
>> John Q. Public *always* has an excuse to say nothing happened
>> at Mena, despite the evidence and testimony. Sounds like the
>> White House.
>
>
>What didn't happen at Mena:
>
>Barry Seal did not import $3 billion in cash and cocaine into Mena.
>Barry Seal did not haul guns out of Mena.
>Barry Seal did not launder $millions through Mena area banks.
>
>Who imported cash and drugs, Larry?
>Who hauled guns, Larry?
>Who laundered $milions through Mena area banks, Larry?
>
>Did these things even happen at Mena?
>
>Where did the money come from?
>Where did the money go?
>
>A *decade* of disinformation has created this sorry morass
>of confusion.
>
>Who was responsible, Larry, and what were the motives?
What you need to ask is;
What is Larry's agenda and motives?
Why has he done everything in his power to twist every
thread in this newsgroup to Mena and CIA, CIA, CIA now for
two years? He has NEVER one time EVER made a single post
about any of the subjects of this newsgroup, but he has
forced himself into every thread with his obsessive Mena and
CIA, CIA, CIA harangue. He repeats over and over and over
the same ten year old BS and old, old, old, newspaper
articles over and over and over again, when he KNOWS they
are NOT true. So again I repeat;
What is Larry's agenda and motive?
Remove NOSPAM from address to e-mail
\\/ayne //\ann
"First of all, I didn't know about it.
To the best of my recollection I didn't know anything about his having
that job until I read about it in the press. And I can't imagine who could
have ever arranged to do something improper like that and no one
around here know about it. It was just not--we did not know anything
about it, and I can tell you categorically that that did not happen. I
knew nothing about it, none of us did before it happened. And I personally
didn't know anything about it, 'til I read about it in the press."
-- President Clinton News Conference 01/29/97
John Q. Public
If it was, and it appears that it was, then it was (and is) acting
as a mask.
>
> There are some facts:
>
> 1) The Federal Reserve identified Arkansas as a state with an excess of
> cash. (I don't have a cite, but have read this repeatedly.) This
> doesn't happen because tourists spend cash in a vacation paradise. It
> probably doesn't happen because Arkansas has lax enforcement of
> marajuana growing. (This is an alternative explanation, however.)
>
> 2) AEPritchard interviewed Jerry Parks widow, who told him that she
> opened the trunk of her husband's car after a trip of his, and it was
> full of so much cash she couldn't close it again. She said he said that
> he was doing it for Vince Foster, and it was from Mena.
Mena is a town, with an airport.
>
> Jerry Parks was killed, possibly by a known State Police associate of
> Clintons.
Foster was killed, too, a few months earlier.
>
> 3) Clinton's body guard tied Lassater to Seal, and Clinton to the
> knowledge of Seal, and both directly to cocaine in amounts large enough
> to fill duffel bags. He and various sources tie Clinton to the CIA,
> apparently ever since Cambridge.
Yep. Someone is lying, or is monumentally mistaken.
>
> 4) How much $ was in Seal's Cayman Islands bank account? (I remember a
> WSJ article saying $B, others have told me $M.) Why was their secretary
> tortured, murdered and the $ moved. This only a few years ago. Can
> Bear Bottoms account for his whereabouts when this happened?
>
> 5) Lots of evidence of strange banking practices going on, strange
> dealings in commodities, etc. accounts, problems of AFDA bonds. All
> tied to Clinton and Friends.
>
> No doubt many have extrapolated from the above facts (and a lot more
> hard data I don't have on the tip of my brain at this time of night
> after dealing with a crying baby 8) far beyond what is warranted.
>
> But, there is a solid core of truth to what you now call the Mena Myth:
> Lots of money, cocaine, Barry Seale, Bill Clinton, Mena and the CIA,
> tightly associated.
First, _I_ don't call it the "Mena Myth"; Bottoms calls it the
"Mena Myth" and has explained that he means it to refer to
the Seal stories. Second, there really is no _evidence_ that
Seal brought cocaine into Arkansas, or that he laundered
the hundreds of $millions (or even $billions) through Arkansas,
even according to Bill Duncan and Russell Welch's investigations.
You state that you don't give a damn whether it's called a Barry Seal
myth or something else, but you ought to. If Barry Seal didn't
do what the myths about him allege, then either Mena really is
a myth, or someone and/or something else did, and the continuing
use of Seal as chaff is obfuscating the truth.
Lew Glendenning
JDBrown was Clinton's bodyguard. This was done by Tyrell (?sp?), and
JDBrown was questioned under oath, as I recall. To disbelieve this I
would need motive and contradictory evidence.
So, I believe the CIA-Seal-guns-cocaine part of the story. There is a
lot of supporting evidence, e.g. Terry Reed. You have begun
dis-believing him of late also, for reasons not clear to me.
To believe the Parks money was something else is to put a lot of drug
smuggling through Mena airport via separate organizations. Possible,
but evidence would be nice.
The story is NOT complete nor airtight, by any means. But certainly
worth an investigation of large and serious proportions, by a clean
investigative agency. Won't happen, even if we had a clean
investigative agency.
Meanwhile, adding to the confusion is Mr. Bottoms, who is quite without
motive, and therefore more likely disinformation than information.
There are a lot of core FACTS which should be listed and expanded upon,
much as the core FACTS of the Foster non-suicide are listed and
gradually expanded upon. Stop this crazy fight with Larry and start
agreeing on the fundamentals, and get the show back on the road.
At this point, the shadowy org in the background is laughing its ass
off.
Lew
John Q. Public
Lew Glendenning wrote:
>
> JDBrown was Clinton's bodyguard.
Uh, it's L. D. Brown.
> This was done by Tyrell (?sp?), and
> JDBrown was questioned under oath, as I recall. To disbelieve this I
> would need motive and contradictory evidence.
It was not under oath.
I'm glad you brought up L. D. Brown, because disbelieving
his allegations has been the most difficult part of this
whole transition for me. However, Brown made it easier with
his later claim about being asked by the CIA to assassinate
Terry Reed. As Bottoms has pointed out, why would a guy
who couldn't bring himself to participate in any way
in cocaine importation later accept as assassination
assignment? Something isn't right.
>
> So, I believe the CIA-Seal-guns-cocaine part of the story.
Guess Russell Welch's opinions and the absence of evidence
don't count for much, eh?
> There is a
> lot of supporting evidence, e.g. Terry Reed. You have begun
> dis-believing him of late also, for reasons not clear to me.
Because Terry Reed's stories about Seal are not corroborated
by Welch, Bottoms, or evidence of any kind. And Reed has
never made the allegations about Seal under oath, as far as I know.
It is impossible to believe both Welch and Reed, IMO.
>
> To believe the Parks money was something else is to put a lot of drug
> smuggling through Mena airport via separate organizations. Possible,
> but evidence would be nice.
9 years elapsed between Seal's last known smuggling related
activity (i.e., getting his aircraft maintained, etc.) at
Rich Mountain Aviation, and Foster's and Park's deaths. So
someone alleges that money came from Mena, which is a town,
and you link Parks' death to decade old accusations about
Barry Seal, who had been dead 7 years when Parks was killed,
and vague claims that cocaine smuggling continued (sic) at Mena
airport for years afterwards.
>
> The story is NOT complete nor airtight, by any means. But certainly
> worth an investigation of large and serious proportions, by a clean
> investigative agency. Won't happen, even if we had a clean
> investigative agency.
>
> Meanwhile, adding to the confusion is Mr. Bottoms, who is quite without
> motive, and therefore more likely disinformation than information.
Almost all of Bottoms' claims about Seal have been corroborated by
Welch's and Duncan's separate investigations. Without Mr. Bottoms
having come on the scene, whatever his motivation may have been,
and despite what you may think of him and feel about him, it
cannot be denied that he has performed a counter-disinformation
service.
>
> There are a lot of core FACTS which should be listed and expanded upon,
> much as the core FACTS of the Foster non-suicide are listed and
> gradually expanded upon.
That's an interesting comparison. Many of the most compelling
forensic *facts* surrounding the Foster death consist in
the *absence* of evidence (that he killed himself at FMP).
Many of the claims about Seal are also threatened when
the (lack of) evidence is examined.
> Stop this crazy fight with Larry and start
> agreeing on the fundamentals, and get the show back on the road.
>
> At this point, the shadowy org in the background is laughing its ass
> off.
>
I don't think so, Lew. I think their decade long hiding spot
behind the dead guy may be coming to an end.
Larry-Jennie
In article <334ED3...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com>
writes:
>Lew Glendenning wrote:
>> This was done by (R. Emmitt Tyrrell), and
>> (L.D.) Brown was questioned under oath, as I recall. To disbelieve this I
>> would need motive and contradictory evidence.
John Q. Public wrote:
>It was not under oath.
Get your facts straight, JQP.
Excerpt from:
The Electronic Telegraph Monday 7 August 1995 World News
Secret service link in death of Clinton aide
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Washington
In another deposition, L. D. Brown, the Arkansas State
Trooper, has now repeated under oath the allegations published
in the August edition of the American Spectator magazine.
He said he was recruited by the CIA in 1984 - with the
encouragement of Governor Clinton - and flew on two
missions to Central America to deliver M-16 rifles to the
Nicaraguan Contras.
Excerpt from:
PARTNERS IN POWER
by Roger Morris
pg. 405
By Brown's repeated accounts, including hundreds of pages of testimony under
oath and supporting documentation, the sum of the story was stark: The
governor had clearly been aware of the crimes of Mena as early as 1984. He
knew the Central Intelligence Agency was responsible, knew that there was
major arms and drug running out of western Arkansas, believed the smuggling
involved not only Barry Seal but also a cocaine dealer who was one of Clinton's
most prominent backers, and seemed to know that approval of the Mena flights
reached as high as Vice President Bush. Brown remembered how Bill Clinton
had encouraged him to join in the operation -- "Clinton got me into this, the
governor did," he would testify -- and how Clinton had then dismissed his
repugnance at the evidence that Seal was trafficking cocaine under CIA auspices.
The state policeman watched in "despair," his brother recalled, while the
governor did nothing about the drug smuggling. Brown would still think a
decade later that Bill Clinton "was surprised only in that I had found out about it."
Lew Glendenning wrote:
>> So, I believe the CIA-Seal-guns-cocaine part of the story.
John Q. Public wrote:
>Guess Russell Welch's opinions and the absence of evidence
>don't count for much, eh?
Let's read Russell Welch describe Barry Seal's cocaine
smuggling operations at Mena:
From: true...@worldnet.att.net (Russell Welch)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
Subject: Unravelled Response
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:31:58 GMT
<snip>
You (Billy Bob Bottoms) told me that past the middle of 1983, you
began slipping away from Seal's drug activity and didn't
know everything that he was doing. After I told you about
watching Seal and Billy Earle, Jr., fly into Rich Mountain
Aviation, on the night of December 13, 1983, preparing
for a smuggling trip, you told me that Seal had told
you that he was flying cocaine directly into Mena, but
you didn't believe him at the time. After I told you
what I saw, you said, "Maybe he did." That incident
was well documented.
<snip>
The FBI notified me that they
had picked up information from a wire tap in New Orleans
that Seal was coming into Mena with either money
or dope. It turned out that he was bringing the plane
in to have it plumbed for auxiliary fuel tanks, which
were needed immediately for a smuggling trip. Billy
Earle told me about the trip. He and Seal brought
in a Navajo with a Panther conversion kit and Venezuelan
tail number, YV189CP. The temperature was below
freezing that night. Billy had picked up Barry Seal at a
small airport outside of Baton Rouge. Billy commented
that it was night time and Seal flew to Mena without
using charts. They arrived at Mena around midnight.
Billy remembered that Seal went in for his landing at
a 45 degree angle. He told Billy E. he was trying to avoid
the mountains. It was a short landing. The hanger doors
at Rich Mountain Aviation opened up and they taxied
in with the engines still running. Billy E. was ushered away
from the two work men. Seal told Billy E. that he didn't
want him to observe the men working. This would help
them to avoid elements of a conspiracy. Earle later
identified a photograph of Freddie Hampton.
From: true...@worldnet.att.net (Russell Welch)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
Subject: Unravelled Response 2a
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:17:08 GMT
Unravelled Response Two
Barry Seal used the Mena Airport as a storage and
repair facility; but, you can't stop there. He also
used this facility to install special cargo doors and
and plumbing (fuel pumps and lines) for auxiliary
fuel tanks, which were necessary to travel the long
distances of a smuggling trip. These aren't repairs.
They are alterations. In conspiracy jargon, they
are also called, "overt acts." Bladder tanks, among
other smuggling necessities, were also stored at this
facility. "Concealment" is a much better word than
"storage."
Rich Mountain aviation had two hangers,
next to each other. One of the hangers was reserved
for Barry Seals airplanes. It's doors were kept locked
and only certain employees were allowed in. Sheets
were kept over the instrument panels so that
nobody could see the advanced avionics on the instrument
panel. It was up to Rich Mountain Aviation to
make sure that these airplanes remained hidden.
As you should know, Billy, when you, or whoever,
was flying after the cocaine, arrived at Mena to
pickup the smuggling plane, it would be waiting
with auxiliary tanks full of fuel
and tail numbers changed, ready for the ride to
Colombia. A few hours later, after the dope was
kicked, you, or whoever, would return to Mena,
park the airplane, and leave in the other plane
that had originally brought you to Mena. Somebody
at Rich Mountain Aviation would then clean up
the airplane and conceal it until the next trip.
John Q. Public wrote:
>Almost all of Bottoms' claims about Seal have been corroborated by
>Welch's and Duncan's separate investigations.
PURE UNADULTERATED BULLSHIT.
Notice how John Q. Public does not post supporting testimony.
The lack of corroboration from Duncan or Welch for his phony
claims is because it doesn't exist.
Larry
John Q. Public
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> John Q. Public wrote:
> >Almost all of Bottoms' claims about Seal have been corroborated by
> >Welch's and Duncan's separate investigations.
>
> PURE UNADULTERATED BULLSHIT.
"Barry Seal was nothing but a cocaine mule for a group of
sleazy cocaine thugs. There was never any evidence that
Seal was running guns, that I'm aware....Barry Seal wasn't
running guns or working for the CIA." -- Russell Welch, 3/16/97
"If Barry had been running guns out of the Mena Airport in
1983, 1984, or 1985, I would have caught him." -- Russell Welch, 3/16/97
John Q. Public
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> In article <334ED3...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com>
> writes:
>
> >Lew Glendenning wrote:
> >> This was done by (R. Emmitt Tyrrell), and
> >> (L.D.) Brown was questioned under oath, as I recall. To disbelieve this I
> >> would need motive and contradictory evidence.
>
> John Q. Public wrote:
> >It was not under oath.
>
> Get your facts straight, JQP.
>
> Excerpt from:
> The Electronic Telegraph Monday 7 August 1995 World News
> Secret service link in death of Clinton aide
> By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Washington
>
> In another deposition, L. D. Brown, the Arkansas State
> Trooper, has now repeated under oath the allegations published
> in the August edition of the American Spectator magazine.
> He said he was recruited by the CIA in 1984 - with the
> encouragement of Governor Clinton - and flew on two
> missions to Central America to deliver M-16 rifles to the
> Nicaraguan Contras.
Did he swear under oath that he flew with Barry Seal on
Seal's C123 in 1984, twice? Answer, please, yes or no.
John Q. Public
John Q. Public wrote:
>
> Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> >
> > >Almost all of Bottoms' claims about Seal have been corroborated by
> > >Welch's and Duncan's separate investigations.
> >
> > PURE UNADULTERATED BULLSHIT.
>
> sleazy cocaine thugs. There was never any evidence that
> Seal was running guns, that I'm aware....Barry Seal wasn't
> running guns or working for the CIA." -- Russell Welch, 3/16/97
>
> "If Barry had been running guns out of the Mena Airport in
> 1983, 1984, or 1985, I would have caught him." -- Russell Welch, 3/16/97
Oh, yeah, I forgot that you mentioned Duncan, too:
Subject: Arkansas smokescreen?
Sender: owne...@majordomo.pobox.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: j...@globaldialog.com
[I obtained a copy of a draft indictment, prepared by
the office of DOJ's USA Fitzhugh, alleging that Barry Seal,
Fred Hampton, Joe Evans and others laundered and conspired
to launder money through various Mena, Arkansas area banks.
The copy was obtained from the depository for the collected
Mena related papers of Rep. Bill Alexander. Some of the
information used in developing this article came from this
draft indictment.]
---
Blaming the dead -- Could an Arkansas smokescreen be hiding
a decade old international espionage and political corruption
scandal?
It has been alleged that Barry Seal was responsible for
moving as much as $3B-$6B of drugs into Arkansas between
1981 and 1986.
It has also been alleged that the vast flow of money
through Arkansas' businesses and financial institutions
in the 1980s (some allege that it continues today) is
largely the result of this drug money being laundered.
The hub of this activity is alleged to have been Mena, and
in Mena we have a financial institution that had a very
interesting ownership in the 1980s, when the peak of the
drug influx was supposedly occurring. First National
Bank in Mena was part of the Worthen network of banks,
partially owned by Mochtar Riady of Lippo Group fame
and Jackson Stephens, Riady's partner in an enterprise
called Hong Kong Chinese Bank. (Stephens is no longer
an owner, but the PRC government quietly purchased
a stake in that bank from Lippo Group shortly after
Bill Clinton's 1992 election.)
It has further been alleged that the Little Rock-Asian
connection, with the pivot man being Charlie Trie, links
Clinton to Seal via FNB in Mena. There is no case for
this allegation in the available evidence, and the
desire to mix in the allegations about Barry Seal running
a monumental Arkansas drug and laundering operation,
either alone or hand in hand with the CIA, serves to
obfuscate a different viewpoint that deserves a closer
look.
Those who have tried to "follow the money" including Bill
Duncan, investigator for the IRS, have focused on Mena
area banks, including First National Bank and Union Bank.
Bill Duncan's investigation provided at least a significant
part of the information used to draft the aforementioned
indictment. In fact, there have been several articles written
about Seal and especially FNB in Mena. The best of these,
and the most accurate IMO, is by Anthony Kimery, who has
repeated the $3B-$6B figure but who has also reported money
laundering involving Seal at FNB to run in the "tens of
thousands" of dollars -- a spit in the ocean, as it were.
In fact, a careful look at the patterns running through
the approximately 140 checks, cash receipts and deposit
slips attached to the 24 count draft indictment (which was
never filed) reveals the distinct possibility that Seal
was not willfully involved in trying to launder money
through FNB, given the set of evidence.
Fred Hampton, owner of Rich Mountain Aviation at the time,
claimed that he was not guilty of money laundering,
despite the obvious attempts to keep cash transactions
below the magic $10,000.01 barrier that requires IRS
notification. He claimed that Seal only did business in
cash (true), and that is how Seal paid Hampton for the
maintenance and modification (some were illegal) services
Hampton performed on Seal's fixed wing aircraft. He
stated that that is the reason that he turned cash into
cashier's checks, showing Barry Seal as remitter (and
most often Rich Mountain Aviation as payee) on several
occasions between 1984 and 1985. The total of the checks,
bearing Barry Seal's name (or some variation thereof,
including several misspellings) as remitter, drawn on
First National Bank in Mena over the nearly five year
period that the investigation covered was slightly over
$100,000. However, Hampton's dealings with FNB during
that period well exceeded the $100,000 figure.
If Hampton based his claim of innocence on the fact that
Seal had paid him in cash, and he showed Seal as the
remitter on the cashier's checks he drew, then it stands
to reason that he would not have hidden cash transactions
for Seal's benefit. There is no evidence beyond that
attached to the unfiled indictment, and there was
motivation for Hampton to attach Seal's name to cash
transactions. Therefore, it is most unlikely that Barry
Seal knowingly laundered money through FNB. Perhaps that
is why the indictments, which allege conspiracy to
launder money, were never filed. (Tony Kimery has
indicated that the indictment process was dropped as a
result of pressure from the National Security Council,
and that may be the case. Seal, at the time the
transactions occurred, was an informant for DEA.)
Seal's name does appear as remitter on a few checks
from Union Bank and a couple of other banks, but
rarely and insignificantly, and Rich Mountain Aviation
and/or Fred Hampton and/or his wife were involved in
all of them. In fact, the clearest overall picture
that emerges is one of Fred Hampton's unusual financial
practices.
In any case, the effort to link Barry Seal's alleged
Arkansas operation to Mochtar Riady's Lippo Group to
Bill Clinton may someday pay off, but it won't be by
tracking cash transactions by Barry Seal (or any of his
known associates) at the First National Bank in Mena.
Until some evidence of another laundry mechanism is
revealed (e.g., information that clearly links Seal
and/or some other smuggling operation to ADFA and/or
Bill Clinton's campaign financing), the unending
concentration on Seal, and attempts to entwine all
financial corruption with Seal, is functioning as a
smoke screen, whether inadvertantly or not.
In fact, it is possible that the foreign influence
buying, espionage and political corruption scandal that
has apparently occurred under Bill Clinton's watch as
president was in play before he became president. The
Asian players in Arkansas, and their links to Arkansas
businesses, are currently in the news. However, they were
in place a decade ago, when Bill Clinton first seriously
contemplated a run at the White House, and when Bill
Clinton needed campaign funding.
Charles Mott
In article <33530A...@globaldialog.com>, j...@globaldialog.com wrote:
> Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> >
> > John Q. Public wrote:
> > >Almost all of Bottoms' claims about Seal have been corroborated by
> > >Welch's and Duncan's separate investigations.
> >
> > PURE UNADULTERATED BULLSHIT.
>
>
>
> "Barry Seal was nothing but a cocaine mule for a group of
> sleazy cocaine thugs. There was never any evidence that
> Seal was running guns, that I'm aware....Barry Seal wasn't
> running guns or working for the CIA." -- Russell Welch, 3/16/97
>
>
> "If Barry had been running guns out of the Mena Airport in
> 1983, 1984, or 1985, I would have caught him." -- Russell Welch, 3/16/97
IMHO, Welch seems to be the most authoritative writer on Mena.
Charles Mott
> John Q. Public wrote:
> >
> > Larry-Jennie wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > John Q. Public wrote:
> > > >Almost all of Bottoms' claims about Seal have been corroborated by
> > > >Welch's and Duncan's separate investigations.
> > >
> > > PURE UNADULTERATED BULLSHIT.
> >
> > "Barry Seal was nothing but a cocaine mule for a group of
> > sleazy cocaine thugs. There was never any evidence that
> > Seal was running guns, that I'm aware....Barry Seal wasn't
> > running guns or working for the CIA." -- Russell Welch, 3/16/97
>
> How, exactly, would he know this? Who told him? Under oath?
>
> >
> > "If Barry had been running guns out of the Mena Airport in
> > 1983, 1984, or 1985, I would have caught him." -- Russell Welch, 3/16/97
>
> No serious investigator could say this. Was he there 24 hours a day,
> seven days a week? Get real.
>
> You demand a very high standard for evidence from others, don't exactly
> apply the same critical facility to points which support the "no CIA/no
> cocaine at Mena" hypothesis.
>
> I am astonished at this entire thread. It is not illuminating anything,
> as you must know. It is obscuring the real facts of the case, some of
> which have been testified to by several completely independent people.
>
> The CIA was at Mena. Seal was at Mena. Clinton was at Mena. Guns and
> Drugs were at Mena. Money was at Mena.
I don't think that all these things have to be linked in a
grand, master conspiracy (like a Robert Ludlum novel). Mena
was far from the public eye and had some FBOs and skilled
aircraft mechanics who, apparently, didn't shy away from
sub rosa activities.
For various reasons -- geography, cost, a tradition of
keeping quiet, and a talented labor pool -- Mena became a
center for a certain type of commerce. Like other centers
of commerce, business was generated by many individuals,
none of whom would really consider themselves obedient
pawns in a master conspiracy.
It seems that JQ has looked into the whole subject of Mena
quite carefully, and I think his opinions have some merit.
Also, he is quoting Russell Welch, whose one posting I
observed on this group seemed comprehensive, clearly written
and consistent with common sense.
>
> Get serious about the list and facts, but stop being tendencious.
>
> Lew
Larry-Jennie
In article <33530A...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com> writes:
>Larry-Jennie wrote:
>> John Q. Public wrote:
>> >Almost all of Bottoms' claims about Seal have been corroborated by
>> >Welch's and Duncan's separate investigations.
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>> PURE UNADULTERATED BULLSHIT.
John Q, you still can't find any testimony from Welch or Duncan to
support your cockamamie assertions.
Note that when asked for source material, John Q. Public again
resorted to deceptive editing of Russell Welch:
John Q. Public creatively edited:
>"Barry Seal was nothing but a cocaine mule for a group of
>sleazy cocaine thugs. There was never any evidence that
>Seal was running guns, that I'm aware....Barry Seal wasn't
>running guns or working for the CIA." -- Russell Welch, 3/16/97
Russell Welch's original words:
>>=Billy:
>>=Why don't you lighten up about the Mena Myth thing. Mena is not a myth.
>>=You're right, Barry Seal was nothing but a cocaine mule for a group of
>>=sleazy cocaine thugs. There was never any evidence that Seal was running
>>=guns, that I'm aware. But the fact is that you don't have any idea what
>>=has gone on at Mena. I promise you that you don't know everything that
>>=Seal was doing in Mena. You flew cocaine for Seal and you had little
>>=business in Mena. You contardict yourself over what was taking place
>>=beyond mid 1983. I haven't even began to present my case yet; but, you
>>=seem to be getting cocky over what you're seeing. Hadaway and Capehart
>>=were never apart of my investigation. They weren't even deposed until
>>=very late in the investigation; but still, you seem to think that
>>=Hampton is a better person and source of information than they were.
>>=I've got a serious problem with that. Without Hampton, or somebody else
>>=doing the same thing, Seal's method of smuggling could not have been
>>=accomplished. Hampton knew this and willingly took part in it. Even now
>>=he won't except his responsibility in that organization, like you have.
>>=If Hampton will come and say half as much truth as Hadaway and Capehart
>>=have, I'll change my opinion. In the mean time, fine, say that, as far
>>=as you know, Barry Seal wasn't running guns or working for the CIA. When
>>=you say that, you haven't said very much; but, I assume you've said all
>>=that you can say. Then leave it alone. For the life of me, Billy,
>>=sometimes I don't know what in the hell you're talking about.
>>
>>=Russell Welch
JQP, when are you going to post testimony and evidence, without
dishonest editing, to support your desperate attempt to obfuscate
Mena?
Larry-Jennie
>Subject: Arkansas smokescreen?
>Sender: owne...@majordomo.pobox.com
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: j...@globaldialog.com
Smokescreen is a good way to put your article.
Not one claim you make is corroborated.
Larry
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$ $$
$$ The CIA cocaine smuggling on behalf of the Contras $$
$$ through Mena, Arkansas corrupted the Presidencies $$
$$ of Bill Clinton, George Bush and Ronald Reagan. $$
$$ For details, see: $$
$$ ftp://pencil.cs.missouri.edu/pub/mena/ $$
$$ $$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
>[I obtained a copy of a draft indictment, prepared by
John Q. Public
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
Larry:
My sources are Russell Welch, Bill Duncan, Al Hadaway,
and Billy Bottoms. Three are investigators, and one
was a participant who has testified under oath on many
occasions, and offers up references in DEA that you
refuse to contact.
John Q. Public
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> In article <335313...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com> writes:
>
> >Subject: Arkansas smokescreen?
> >Sender: owne...@majordomo.pobox.com
> >Precedence: bulk
> >Reply-To: j...@globaldialog.com
>
> Smokescreen is a good way to put your article.
>
> Not one claim you make is corroborated.
That is a lie, and you are a liar, and I will be more
than pleased to send whoever wants one an unedited
copy of the draft, unfiled indictment that contains
the evidence upon which the following is based,
in exchange for the cost of copying and mailing.
Except for Larry there will be a $25 surcharge.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Prediction of the decade: "The public will never believe the
innocence of the Clintons & their loyal staff." -- author unknown
John Q. Public
<Billy Bottoms has equipment problems, and is temporarily
unable to post to usenet. The following is unedited.>
To: j...@globaldialog.com
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:44:18 -0500
Subject: Re: "Mena is not a myth" -- Russell Welch
Message-ID: <19970416.194537...@juno.com>
References: <1997041623...@msn.globaldialog.com>
X-Mailer: Juno 1.23
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-122
From: bbot...@juno.com (William L Bottoms)
On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:27:15 -0500 j...@globaldialog.com writes:
>Subject:
> Re: "Mena is not a myth" -- Russell Welch
> Date:
> Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:52:17 -0500
> From:
> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com>
>Organization:
> None
> Newsgroups:
> alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
> References:
> 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13
>
>
>Lew Glendenning wrote:
>>
>> John Q. Public wrote:
>> >
>> > Larry-Jennie wrote:
>> > >
>> > > In article <334ED3...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public"
><j...@globaldialog.com>
>> > > writes:
>> > >
>> > > >Lew Glendenning wrote:
>> > > >> This was done by (R. Emmitt Tyrrell), and
>> > > >> (L.D.) Brown was questioned under oath, as I recall. To
>disbelieve
>this I
>> > > >> would need motive and contradictory evidence.
I have provided totally reliable contradictory evidence.
The man purgured himself. Too good to haul cocaine
but not to kill somebody. Evading radar on departure from
the US on a covert operation. Had dates coinciding with
a movie in the airplane. Two investigators and an inside
operative testifing the C-123 didn't go anywhere. Welch
and I testifing that Seal didn't work for the CIA or run guns.
The two DEA handlers of Seal and myself testifing to the same.
Pete Everson, a crewmember of the C=123 testifing to the same.
Brown uncorroborrated. Reed uncorroborated. Piss poor legs to
Stand on.
>> > >
>> > > John Q. Public wrote:
>> > > >It was not under oath.
>> > >
>> > > Get your facts straight, JQP.
>> > >
>> > > Excerpt from:
>> > > The Electronic Telegraph Monday 7 August 1995 World News
>> > > Secret service link in death of Clinton aide
>> > > By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Washington
>> > >
>> > > In another deposition, L. D. Brown, the Arkansas State
>> > > Trooper, has now repeated under oath the allegations published
>> > > in the August edition of the American Spectator magazine.
>> > > He said he was recruited by the CIA in 1984 - with the
>> > > encouragement of Governor Clinton - and flew on two
>> > > missions to Central America to deliver M-16 rifles to the
>> > > Nicaraguan Contras.
He purgured himself. The man is lying. Evidence proves it.
>> >
>> > Did he swear under oath that he flew with Barry Seal on
>> > Seal's C123 in 1984, twice? Answer, please, yes or no.
>>
>> I think so. But, why the attitude?
>
>Why the attitude?
>
>Because If Reed or Brown are telling the truth, then Russell
>Welch and Al Hadaway are lying, and vice versa. There are
>no other, more palatable possibilities that I can conjure up.
>
>
>>This is not the medium of a defense
>> attorney for the CIA cross-examing a prosecution witness.
>
>It's time for reckoning on Mena and Barry Seal.
>
>>
>> There appears to be significant evidence that LDBrown accompanies
>Barry
>> Seal taking guns to Central America and bring cocaine back. Enough
>to
>> warrant a serious investigation. The existence of the 9
>investigations
>> which were aborted for National Security reasons appears to warrant
>an
>> investigation. ...
Absolutely wrong. There is no evidence nor corroboration.
>
>There also appears to be two law enforcement people who say
>it couldn't have happened as described, and a Seal associate
>who says it didn't happen.
>
>And what would be the legal basis for mounting such an
>investigation? We're stuck with liars and disinformationists.
>
>>
>> Including an investigation of the CIA from outside?
>>
>> Yes or no?
>>
I say yes, because I believe that the CIA is complicit in
drug money. Seal was used to distract away from it.
His is unprovable since it is a lie and 10 major investigations
never concluded and left the smokescreen. Why, to keep you
off track for one thing. John Hull's operation in Costa Rica
was rank with this stuff yet obscure as far as any real attention
goes.
>
>What the hell does that mean? Focus on something that needs
>to be investigated, in your opinion, and which involved the
>CIA. If you can make a case, the answer will be "yes".
>Little fish first, and go for convictions. That top down
>stuff results in nothing but fluff.
>
>
John Q. Public
Lew Glendenning wrote:
>
> John Q. Public wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > John Q. Public wrote:
> > > >Almost all of Bottoms' claims about Seal have been corroborated by
> > > >Welch's and Duncan's separate investigations.
> > >
> > > PURE UNADULTERATED BULLSHIT.
> >
> > sleazy cocaine thugs. There was never any evidence that
> > Seal was running guns, that I'm aware....Barry Seal wasn't
> > running guns or working for the CIA." -- Russell Welch, 3/16/97
>
>
> >
> > "If Barry had been running guns out of the Mena Airport in
> > 1983, 1984, or 1985, I would have caught him." -- Russell Welch, 3/16/97
>
> No serious investigator could say this. Was he there 24 hours a day,
> seven days a week? Get real.
>
> You demand a very high standard for evidence from others, don't exactly
> apply the same critical facility to points which support the "no CIA/no
> cocaine at Mena" hypothesis.
That's not my hypothesis. That's a perversion of my position,
sdvanced by the Pink Disinfo Bunny, as a fallback
response, so that he can fuzz everything up when his specific
allegations are challenged effectively.
> I am astonished at this entire thread. It is not illuminating anything,
> as you must know. It is obscuring the real facts of the case,
How do *you* know what the "real facts" are, when you assume that
Brown and Reed are telling the truth, even though Welch and
Hadaway and Bottoms say they aren't? The Pink Disinfo Bunny
can't even bring himself to posting, in his own words,
what he thinks happened in and around Mena. Did you know that the
"Uncle Sam Wants You," starring Seal and his C123, was being filmed
on the very day (or so I understand; someone correct me if
I'm wrong) that Brown claims to have flown to Nicaragua in it?
The problem is that there are at least two sets of "facts."
The set you like has had a free ride for a long time but has
led nowhere, because Terry Reed never got to court. The
emotion sparked by the appearance of Billy Bottoms has been
extreme. Not one of the Reed-Brown advocates bothered to
check him out, and have tried to censor him. You tell me why
people who claim to be seeking justice are so interested in
trying to suppress evidence.
John Q. Public
Lew Glendenning wrote:
>
> John Q. Public wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > In article <334ED3...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com>
> > > writes:
> > >
> > > >Lew Glendenning wrote:
> > > >> This was done by (R. Emmitt Tyrrell), and
> > > >> (L.D.) Brown was questioned under oath, as I recall. To disbelieve this I
> > > >> would need motive and contradictory evidence.
> > >
> > > John Q. Public wrote:
> > > >It was not under oath.
> > >
> > > Get your facts straight, JQP.
> > >
> > > Excerpt from:
> > > The Electronic Telegraph Monday 7 August 1995 World News
> > > Secret service link in death of Clinton aide
> > > By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Washington
> > >
> > > In another deposition, L. D. Brown, the Arkansas State
> > > Trooper, has now repeated under oath the allegations published
> > > in the August edition of the American Spectator magazine.
> > > He said he was recruited by the CIA in 1984 - with the
> > > encouragement of Governor Clinton - and flew on two
> > > missions to Central America to deliver M-16 rifles to the
> > > Nicaraguan Contras.
> >
> > Seal's C123 in 1984, twice? Answer, please, yes or no.
>
> I think so. But, why the attitude?
Why the attitude?
Because If Reed or Brown are telling the truth, then Russell
Welch and Al Hadaway are lying, and vice versa. There are
no other, more palatable possibilities that I can conjure up.
>This is not the medium of a defense
> attorney for the CIA cross-examing a prosecution witness.
It's time for reckoning on Mena and Barry Seal.
>
> There appears to be significant evidence that LDBrown accompanies Barry
> Seal taking guns to Central America and bring cocaine back. Enough to
> warrant a serious investigation. The existence of the 9 investigations
> which were aborted for National Security reasons appears to warrant an
> investigation. ...
There also appears to be two law enforcement people who say
it couldn't have happened as described, and a Seal associate
who says it didn't happen.
And what would be the legal basis for mounting such an
investigation? We're stuck with liars and disinformationists.
>
> Including an investigation of the CIA from outside?
>
> Yes or no?
>
What the hell does that mean? Focus on something that needs
Billy Beck
You know...
lar...@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:
(...)
>JQP, when are you going to post testimony and evidence, without
>dishonest editing, to support your desperate attempt to obfuscate
>Mena?
>
>Larry
...the whole whole scream of this post resounds of the tones
of Lindsey Lee.
Billy
patrick
Larry-Jennie <lar...@interaccess.com> wrote:
"Russell Welch Says:
>Rich Mountain aviation had two hangers,
>next to each other. One of the hangers was reserved
>for Barry Seals airplanes. It's doors were kept locked
>and only certain employees were allowed in. Sheets
>were kept over the instrument panels so that
>nobody could see the advanced avionics on the instrument
>panel. It was up to Rich Mountain Aviation to
>make sure that these airplanes remained hidden.
> Somebody at Rich Mountain Aviation would then clean up
>the airplane and conceal it until the next trip.
>John Q. Public wrote:
>>Almost all of Bottoms' claims about Seal have been corroborated by
>>Welch's and Duncan's separate investigations.
Just a little suggestion for you two -- Go find out what Russell is
doing since his retirement.( His present employer is quite a surprise)
Patrick (lurker)
Larry-Jennie
In article <cmott-16049...@192.168.0.5> cm...@srv.net (Charles Mott) writes:
> Also, he is quoting Russell Welch, whose one posting I
> observed on this group seemed comprehensive, clearly written
> and consistent with common sense.
Good. Then here is another Russell Welch post to read.
From: true...@worldnet.att.net (Russell Welch)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
Subject: Unravelled Response 2e
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:26:24 GMT
************************************
Billy, you're right that Gene Wheaton had a lot
to do with Mena coming into the spot light. But,
he wasn't the first to come up with some of
this. When I came back to Mena, in 1979, there
was a poster on the bulletin board at the Mena
Police Department. It had a picture of Roland
Varnado. This poster had been sent to Mena
by the BATF in Louisiana. It said he was
a gun runner, who just got out of federal prison
on a weapons conviction. It said that the conviction
was small, but he was into bigger stuff than
they were able to make a case for. It said that
he was living in the Nella community, north of Mena.
That didn't help the Nella communities image
much. Then the neighbors at Nella said that
he was caretaker at the strip. One of the neighbors
said he was a friend of yours. I meant to ask
you about that.
In 1984, three pickups loaded with boxes of
rifles were seen in the Nella area, during the
early morning hours.
It was actually on into 1986 before activity
really picked up in Nella area. When people
around here refer to the Nella area, they're
talking about a pretty big area, most of which
is National Forest. A county road goes right
by the landing strip. Not a good place to do
secret stuff. There's houses in that area. It's
an honest mistake to make, thinking that everything
took place on that strip, because of the Barry
Seal mystique.
I like Gene
Wheaton but I'm not going to let that get
in the way of my objectivity. Some of the
things he talked about were way out in
left field for me. But, he was right about
a lot of things. Most of the stuff that he talked
about, took place after Barry was dead.
Things started picking up around here
in 1987. It was hard for some people to
realize that Barry had been gone a long time
by then.
Not long after Wheaton showed up, Duncan
and I met Jack Blum at local restaurant. He
and an assistant were working for the Senate
Foreign Relations Committee, at the time.
They told us that Panamanian assassins
were being trained at Nella. Duncan told
me that he's changed his mind since then.
I don't know.
When the FBI agents told me that Southern
Air Transport was moving it's operation to
Mena, that didn't have anything to do with
Barry Seal or Nella; but, it had a lot to do
with the Mena Airport.
When I was told about a U.S. Army
General getting busted for drug smuggling,
that didn't have anything to do with Seal,
I don't think. We'll talk about that.
A Federal agent told me that Barry was
involved with BCCI
On June 4, 1985, a DEA agent told me
that he had information from the Mobile,
Ala. DEA office that it was assumed that
Barry was flying guns to Central America
and flying his own dope back.
The stories go on. Some of them make
reference to Barry Seal. Most of them
don't. The only thing about Gene that
bothered me was that after he approached
some people, asking about Mena., they
suddenly became veterans of
great intrigue at Mena, when they didn't
know anything about Mena, before talking
to Wheaton.
The point I'm trying to make is that
Wheaton isn't the demon, here. He showed
up in 1987. But a lot of things started
happening in 1987, not the least of which
was the Iran-Contra hearings chasing
Southern Air Transport to Mena. Barry
Seal was still on the tip of a lot of tongues.
Even the media failed to grasp that it had
been a while since Barry died. And, don't
forget the sheet of paper I gave you. In
February of 1990, for some reason, 28 boxes
of stuff from Barry's office showed up in
Little Rock. Duncan and I had tried for
months to get a look into those boxes.
I'd forgotten about them and then they
show up. And, on the end of every one
of the boxes was a sheet of paper printed,
"DO NOT DESTROY
CONTRA
MENA CONNECTION"
That came in from the IRS, who had
it in storage, in New Orleans, or somewhere,
since it was seized in the jeopardy assessment,
in 1986. Barry was coming from those
documents when he was killed. You can't
blame that on Gene Wheaton. That was
your Federal tax dollars at work.
And don't forget the name, Simon Frazier.
He was a major smuggler, out of the Mena
Airport, before Barry. Simon is the biggest
reason that a state investigator was placed in
Mena. He operated with three DC-3's. His
front was a fish business in downtown Mena.
For a year or so, Mena had the freshest fish
in the country. He got busted in Florida, rolled
over, made some cases for them, and then
got killed in a couple of different airplane
crashes, in 1981. He's still seen around her
almost as much as Elvis. Terry Capehart
went to New Mexico with him one time and
Frazier took him into a warehouse full of
guns that were going to Central America.
I suppose we need to spend more time on this.
This seems to be a bigger irritation for you
than it should be. We can go into more
detail on my Barry Seal investigation and
finish it up. When we finish up with the
Seal portion of this thing, it'll be easier
to understand some of this later stuff. As you
know, we've got a lot of documentation
to go through.
I've got to take three or four days to take care of
some other things. I'll work on this as I can.
(I'll read over this in a couple of days
and clear up anything that's screwed up,
typing errors, etc.. I think I was trying
to progress too fast.)
Larry-Jennie
>IMHO, Welch seems to be the most authoritative writer on Mena.
Then you will enjoy reading this. Welch talks about Seal's cocaine
smuggling operations at Mena.
From: true...@worldnet.att.net (Russell Welch)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
Subject: Unravelled Response 2a
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:17:08 GMT
Unravelled Response Two
(Bottoms - page 1, paragraph 2)
Seal had used the Mena airport as a storage and repair
facility for his fleet of aircraft utilized in his smuggling
operation from the spring of 1982 until the fall of 1983.
After the fall of 1983, Seal began attempting to become
an informant for the Federal Government as result of legal
problems from his illegal drug activity. The notoriety
of this airport grew as the years passed until a full blown
conspiracy was developed in early 1988, the author
of which was Eugene Wheaton. Eugene Wheaton is
a retired military intelligence investigator who seems to
pop up in hot spots around the country. His apparent
intent is to find truth, but when he leaves, things are
in shambles. His driving force is one of the mysteries
of Mena. Wheaton is the person who presented the
fabricated story of Seal, Mena, CIA, Contras, and
guns-for-drugs at the little airport. It is not true.
(Welch, comments)
Barry Seal used the Mena Airport as a storage and
repair facility; but, you can't stop there. He also
used this facility to install special cargo doors and
and plumbing (fuel pumps and lines) for auxiliary
fuel tanks, which were necessary to travel the long
distances of a smuggling trip. These aren't repairs.
They are alterations. In conspiracy jargon, they
are also called, "overt acts." Bladder tanks, among
other smuggling necessities, were also stored at this
facility. "Concealment" is a much better word than
"storage."
Rich Mountain aviation had two hangers,
next to each other. One of the hangers was reserved
for Barry Seals airplanes. It's doors were kept locked
and only certain employees were allowed in. Sheets
were kept over the instrument panels so that
nobody could see the advanced avionics on the instrument
panel. It was up to Rich Mountain Aviation to
make sure that these airplanes remained hidden.
As you should know, Billy, when you, or whoever,
was flying after the cocaine, arrived at Mena to
pickup the smuggling plane, it would be waiting
with auxiliary tanks full of fuel
and tail numbers changed, ready for the ride to
Colombia. A few hours later, after the dope was
kicked, you, or whoever, would return to Mena,
park the airplane, and leave in the other plane
that had originally brought you to Mena. Somebody
at Rich Mountain Aviation would then clean up
the airplane and conceal it until the next trip. But,
the services at this "storage and repair facility" didn't
stop there.
You couldn't just pull the Navajo's or
Seneca's up to the FBO and pump 600 gallons of
aviation fuel into them. Their FAA approved fuel
tanks can't hold that much. Everybody would know
your business. Rich Mountain Aviation provided
a fictitious store front, called H&L Exploration
which used a flat bed stave truck with a 600 gallon fuel
tank. This truck then went to surrounding airports
to fill the 600 gallon tank, explaining that the fuel
was for a helicopter, which the exploration company
used to search for natural gas. The tail number,
that this fictitious business used, return to an experimental
airplane in Michigan. The fuel recovered by H&L,
from the surrounding airports
was taken to Rich Mountain Aviation and
used to fill the auxiliary tanks on Barry's smuggling
airplanes.
Joe and Phyllis Evans forged fictitious
names on the registration papers for the flat bed
truck. For a long period, during 1983, Barry Seal kept
his helicopters at Rich Mountain Aviation. These
helicopters were integral to Barry's method of
smuggling
Several times, Barry Seal has been recorded saying that
he continued to smuggle cocaine well into March,
1984. If Barry had lied about that, I could have, likely,
violated his plea agreement. The Mena Airport was
far from a simple "storage and repair facility." Let
me follow up, what I have stated here, with some
documentation.
(excerpt from interview)
"***** **** remembered having written up a bill for the
cargo door on N7409L. At one time while the cargo
door was still being installed, **** **** asked Joe Evans
why the airplane needed a cargo door. Evans told her
that they were going to haul porpoises. Later on *****
**** was having dinner with Joe Evans, Red Hall, and
Mike Lambert at the Airport Caf . Joe Evans jokingly
said to the other two men, "This lady actually believed
that we were going to haul porpoises in that airplane."
***** **** had, in fact, believed Joe Evans. She asked
him what he was going to haul in the airplane. He said,
"That's for me to know". One time, Freddie Hampton
told **** **** that two and two are four, but if he ever
told her that two and two are five, she was not to question
it. One time, Barry Seal flew into Rich Mountain Aviation
and all of the employees were sent into the office where
they could not see what was going on. Seal and some others
went into the C-123, which was there at that time. A string
was placed across the door with a sign, "Do Not Enter". The
employees were then let out. When Seal came out of the
C-123, the employees were again sent back into the office."
(Investigator's notes from case file)
On Thursday, 8-29-85, at 2:00 p.m., this investigator spoke
telephonically with DEA Agents Charlie Bremer and Mike
Long, simultaneously. They told this investigator that
they had been case agents on the Barry Seal investigation.
They spoke very openly about the investigation. They said
that they had not been allowed to take part in the debriefing
of Barry Seal. They told this investigator that the Piper
Navajo, N7409L, had taken part in 75 known illegal smuggling
operations. They were both familiar with Rich Mountain
Aviation at the Mena Airport. They said that the airplane
had received it's cargo door and fuel tanks at Rich Mountain
Aviation. The airplane was at Rich Mountain Aviation when
it was seized.
(The following from a report dated May 4, 1983)
N7409L - FAA records show N7409L, Piper Navajo, was
registered to Charles Medina, Coral Gables, Florida.
N7409L is positive **** and **** (Billy, you know what
the asterisks stand for) These lookouts are for alleged
narcotics and currency smuggling activity.
(The following is from a report by Sgt. Richard Branch,
of the Arkansas State Police, dated April 20, 1983)
It's reported that Evans and Hampton became associated
with Seal in October or November 1982. Seal started
bringing aircraft into the Mena Airport sometime around
this time. It's reported that the planes are flown by Evans
and two other pilots. One is unknown and the other pilot
is a white male named Red Hall out of Columbus, Ohio.
The CI advises that when loads are expected, that they use
several different planes and flights to avoid the detection of
the true plane in flight.
The CI knows of two loads, one on March 24, 1983
and the other on April 15 & 16, 1983. The CI states
that the planes are usually gone for 12 to 14 hours
after leaving the Mena Airport.
The CI believes that they go into Colombia, South America,
and are returning with cocaine. One of the off loading vehicles
is reported to be a truck that is used to haul damaged
aircraft and has an Arkansas vehicle LPN B117579. Other
vehicle license at hanger in Mena are Oklahoma LPN
XE1535, Arkansas LPN JHY717, and Arkansas LPN
JPT128.
The suspected aircraft used in the operation are as follows:
Three Piper Navajos, bearing N numbers N7409L
which is issued to Charles Medina of Florida, suspected of
U.S. Customs service smuggling cocaine, N62856 which
is reported by Customs Service at one time as being owned
by Air America. It's further reported that Air America is
a front for the United States Central Intelligence Agency.
Agent Lacewell advises that he had made contact through
his supervisors concerning the aircraft and its use, and was
advised that the CIA no longer owned the aircraft, but they
were not able to furnish the name of the person or persons
whom the aircraft was sold to. N7100L, there was no
registration available. Also used, are two Piper Seneca's
bearing N80492 and N80482. These two planes are used for
decoys. The 9 in 80492 is made to look like an 8 when being
used as a decoy.
(The following from a report by Inv. Jim Jenkins, 12/14/83)
While looking through the window in the Fred Hampton
Hanger, which is the south hangar at the Mena Airport, this
investigator observed a white male who appeared to be
working on the cargo doors of a blue twin-engine plane
with approximately a six inch gold stripe and one off-colored
blue stripe on each side of the gold stripe going from the
front of the plane all the way to the rear and up the tail. "N"
number on this airplane was YV189CP. (Remember the
interview with Billy Earle, Jr.) At approximately 1:12 a.m.
on Thursday, December 15, 1983, this investigator and
Sgt. R.D. Branch and FBI Agent Tony Ferguson, heard
engines start up. This investigator and Sgt. Branch exited
our surveillance vehicle and ran to the edge of the runway.
We observed a twin-engine blue aircraft take off. The
airplane had one spotlight on while taking off and soon
as the plane was airborne, this light was also turned off.
The plane flew without any lights for a few minutes and
then turned off. The plane flew without any lights for a
few minutes and then turned on the running lights
and we could see the plane heading in a southeasterly
direction.
(From another interview of Billie Earle, Jr.)
Mr. Earl related that he was told what time to
pick up Seal at Baton Rouge and that when
they arrived in Mena the people were expecting
them and knew what was to be done to the airplane.
The airplane was to be used to smuggle cocaine
from South America to the United States. Mr. Earle
related that Mr. Seal's formula was 2,000 miles and
2,000 pounds.
Mr. Earle related that there was no doubt in his
mind that the people at Rich Mountain Aviation
knew of what was going on and that they knew
Seal was in the smuggling business. They fixed
Seal's airplane for him.
John Q. Public
It's been several weeks. A couple of weeks ago, Welch
stated that he'd post again in a couple of weeks.
There are posts that occurred after this one, that Larry
has chosen to leave unreposted. So be it. However, it
ought to be noted that, in response to this post,
Bottoms denied knowing Roland Varnado. There was
discussion about paramilitary groups training
in Nella area. Despite Welch's reporting that a
DEA agent stated that it was "assumed" that Seal was
hauling guns, Welch himself denied that this was
the case. And then there's the 28 boxes with
labels marked "DO NOT DESTROY CONTRA MENA
CONNECTION." Can you imagine that the CIA
would allow one of its dope and gun mules,
allegedly the beneficiary of CIA protection,
to be investigated for a "Contra Mena Connection"?
It sounds like boxes of material that was looked
at by one of the nine (or is it ten?) investigations
that supposedly went nowhere, because it was
blocked from looking at the alleged Contra-Mena
connection. Yet here are these lovely, clearly
labelled boxes. It is curious, isn't it?
And as far as Gene Wheaton goes, Welch said
that it bothered him that after Wheaton "approached
some people, asking about Mena., they
suddenly became veterans of great intrigue at Mena,
when they didn't know anything about Mena, before
talking to Wheaton." That would include Terry Reed.
Bottoms had a two hour conversation with Wheaton
subsequent to this Welch post, and Wheaton has been
in touch with Welch, as well. In addition, Bottoms
and I have both heard a three year old phone interview
with Wheaton about this and related matters, in which
Seal's name is never mentioned.
John Q. Public
Larry, why do you report selected portions of
the Welch-Bottoms "summit"? Aren't you interested
in simply pursuing the truth, wherever it leads?
Why not post the rest of it, including Billy
Bottoms' responses?
Max Kennedy
On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 05:35:56 GMT, ain't...@tno.e-mail (Billy Beck)
wrote:
> You know...
>
>lar...@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>>JQP, when are you going to post testimony and evidence, without
>>dishonest editing, to support your desperate attempt to obfuscate
>>Mena?
>>
>>Larry
>
> ...the whole whole scream of this post resounds of the tones
>of Lindsey Lee.
You know, Lindsey Lee never gives an examples to back up her claims.
In example:
John Q. Public creatively edited:
>"Barry Seal was nothing but a cocaine mule for a group of
>sleazy cocaine thugs. There was never any evidence that
>Seal was running guns, that I'm aware....Barry Seal wasn't
>running guns or working for the CIA." -- Russell Welch, 3/16/97
/---------
People shouldn't expect the mass media to do investigative stories.
That job belongs to the 'fringe' media.
Ted Koppel
/----------
The Yen Stops Here.
Oval Office, Clinton's desk
/-----------
http://www.iglou.com/homepages/mkennedy/twa2.html
John Q. Public
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> In article <335558...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com> writes:
>
> >Lew Glendenning wrote:
> >>
> >> John Q. Public wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> >> > > Excerpt from:
> >> > > The Electronic Telegraph Monday 7 August 1995 World News
> >> > > Secret service link in death of Clinton aide
> >> > > By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Washington
> >> > >
> >> > > In another deposition, L. D. Brown, the Arkansas State
> >> > > Trooper, has now repeated under oath the allegations published
> >> > > in the August edition of the American Spectator magazine.
> >> > > He said he was recruited by the CIA in 1984 - with the
> >> > > encouragement of Governor Clinton - and flew on two
> >> > > missions to Central America to deliver M-16 rifles to the
> >> > > Nicaraguan Contras.
> >> >
> >> > Did he swear under oath that he flew with Barry Seal on
> >> > Seal's C123 in 1984, twice? Answer, please, yes or no.
> >>
> >> I think so. But, why the attitude?
>
> >Why the attitude?
>
> >Because If Reed or Brown are telling the truth, then Russell
> >Welch and Al Hadaway are lying, and vice versa. There are
> >no other, more palatable possibilities that I can conjure up.
>
>
> In his book COMPROMISED, Terry Reed wrote about how two planes could
> manuever to cause one of those planes to "disappear" so it could
> go off to run guns and drugs. Seal's methods were slick. That may
> be why we are reading these contradictions.
It would have to be a pretty damn good trick to keep the C123
in Mena while its twin flew out of Mena but no one noticed.
Terry Reed is a liar, according to Bottoms *and* Welch.
John Q. Public
privacy wrote:
>
> On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:49:49 GMT, ain't...@tno.e-mail (Billy Beck)
> wrote:
>
> > I asked about this a couple of days ago. I recall the radar
> >deceptions involving three planes, but I don't recall anything about
> >"guns". Also: I recall mostly *cash* involved in these flights. They
> >are alleged to have masked drops into Arkansas and originated in
> >Louisiana, among other things.
> >
> > The biggest problem that I have with the Mena story is the
> >shortage of cash out there. It's what first turned me around on it.
> >Here's Larry pointing to Reed's account of undercover flights, but I
> >think he is actually pointing to something in Reed's account *other*
> >than what seems implicit.
>
> Cash? As in 'the missing'?
>
> [UNPROVEN, UNRESEARCHED THEORY ALERT]
>
> Ok, I was trying very hard to bit my fingers until such time as I had
> a shred of ANYTHING to walk across -- but ya've gone and hit my button
> and I'm obligated to reply.
>
> Here's a very big WHAT-IF.... but an interesting one.... to me anyway.
>
> WHAT IF:
>
> 1) Clinton was promised his glory-spot in the Oval Office to let the
> Mena runs continue..... (by whom?)
>
> 2) The 'missing money' isn't missing at all, but went overseas
> (particularly to certain Chinese interests) or perhaps certain S&Ls?
>
> 3) The 'missing money' (or a portion thereof) was being returned to
> 'Honorable Business Partners' in America via the DNC?
>
> 4) Now that the whole mess is drifting up from the great depths,
> everyone and their brother is scrambling to keep the dead good and
> buried... because they ALL know this could be the proverbial
> 'straw'....
>
Speculation, you say?
Subject: Frightening linkage: CIA, PRC, Stephens Inc., ADFA , and
the Clinton administration
From: "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com>
Date: 1997/03/15
Message-Id: <332AEE...@globaldialog.com>
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
[More Headers]
Please distribute.
none of the following material to be used for commercial purposes;
to be used for discussion purposes only under fair use provisions.
China learns Beltway politics
Beijing bones up on lobbying but is accused of buying off critics
By Kari Huus
MSNBC
In a letter dated July 26 from the China's Consulate General in New
York, acting consul general Ren Lu expressed "sincere appreciation" to
its recipients — members of the U.S. Congress who voted "yes" on
unconditional renewal of China's most-favored nation trading status.
Noting that the annual debate on renewal of MFN "has only resulted in
creating anxieties among the business community," Ren urged a "permanent
settlement" and extended an olive branch: "I now take the liberty to
extend to you an invitation to visit China with or without company at a
time of your own convenience.
<SNIP>
Washington-based bi-weekly newspaper Roll Call reported Thursday that
Chinese government funds are being used indirectly, and legally, to pay
for U.S. legislators to travel to China. In December, an 11-day trip to
Shanghai, Beijing and Hong Kong by Reps. Spencer Bachus, R-Ala., and
Henry Bonilla, R-Texas, and their wives was paid in part by money from
the Chinese People's Institute for Foreign Affairs, affiliated with
China's Foreign Ministry, according to the report. It says the remainder
of the money, which was channeled through the New York-based National
Committee on United States-China Relations, came from the Freeman
Foundation.
*********************************************************************
Freeman Foundation money comes largely from the earnings of the
America International Group (AIG), which in 1995 was granted the
first company to become licensed to sell insurance in the Chinese
market.
*********************************************************************
<ed: Let us note, also, that the Freeman Foundation is an
enthusiastic supporter of the PRC's Returning Western Scholars
program. Chinese students returning from the west have long
been known to be sources of intelligence for the PRC, and are
the heart of its espionage program.>
*************************************
by the Staff of the OZARK GAZETTE
GRAY MONEY (full text at http://feustel.mixi.net/CIA/adfamena.txt
Activists seeking documentation that would support claims that the
state of Arkansas was involved with money laundering on a massive
scale may have found the missing link in their three year search.
Documents obtained by the Arkansas Committee show that the Arkansas
Development and Finance Authority, a Bill Clinton signature project,
was involved in a highly questionable, and possibly illegal,
sixty-million
dollar deal in which ADFA borrowed 5 million dollars from a Japanese
bank in order to buy stock in a Barbados insurance company. The
stock was not registered with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
<LARGE SNIP>
FURTHER REVELATIONS
Things began to get even stranger on January 6, 1995. That day John
Crudele of the New York Post published a column which called attention
to whole deal involving Coral, ADFA and AIG. The story was only on
streets in New York for a few hours when Swaney received a call from a
man who told Swaney he had been conducting his own investigation of
Coral Insurance and AIG but had not realized until then that the
connections led to people now in the White House. When Swaney asked him
to identify himself, he declined to do so, for fear of retaliation.
We will call him Mr. Anonymous. It seems that Mr. Anonymous is an
insurance man in New York City - a competitor of AIG - and at sometime
in the last two years he became very suspicious of AIG because its
affiliates were offering insurance at premiums way below market rates.
Mr. Anonymous told Swaney that he could not believe that a legitimate
insurance company could stay in business offering such low rates. Mr.
Anonymous suspected that he was in competition with an illegal
enterprise, and began poking around in the affairs of AIG. At some
point after that, Mr. Anonymous became frightened, and dropped his
investigation, because he believed that the repercussions were damaging
his own business. Mr. Anonymous also told Swaney (and John Crudele of
the New York Post) that AIG and it's relationship with Coral
Reinsurance was under investigation by the insurance regulators of
Pennsylvania and New York.
Mr. Anonymous had discovered that AIG was doing a lot of business
through the island nation Bermuda. He then flew to Bermuda to examine
the records of AIG's business dealings. In conversation with Swaney,
Mr. Anonymous said that one of the companies that he believed to be
underwriting policies issued by AIG had given a Fort Smith, Arkansas
address. When Swaney asked for the name of the company, Mr. Anonymous
told him it was Beverly Indemnity.
Intrigued by the new connections to Arkansas, Swaney requested, and
received, copies of the documents that Mr. Anonymous had obtained in
Bermuda. The documents for Beverly Indemnity of Bermuda contained the
names of two of its officers, Robert Pommerville, and Ronald C. Kayne.
Swaney suspected that Beverly Indemnity was controlled by the well-known
Beverly Enterprises of Fort Smith, AR - a call to Beverly Enterprises
revealed that Pommerville did indeed work for Beverly Enterprises.
Pommerville was later identified as the General Counsel for Beverly
Enterprises. At the time of the Coral Insurance deal, Beverly
Enterprises was owned and controlled by Stephens, Inc.
In a telephone interview Mr. Pommerville stated that Beverly
Enterprises has an ongoing relationship with one of AIG's affiliates.
The National Union Fire and Home Insurance company of Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania insures the Beverly Enterprises nursing homes. In turn,
Beverly Indemnity, Inc. reinsures National Union. Mr. Pommerville
stated that the arrangement was a step toward Beverly Enterprises
becoming self-insured. Beverly Enterprises has a current connection
with ADFA though Bobby Stephens (no relation to Stephens Inc.) who is
a member of the board of directors of both ADFA and Beverly Enterprises.
The minutes of the board of directors meeting at which the board members
voted to buy the Coral Reinsurance stock show that Bobby Stephens was
absent.
Beverly Enterprises has an intriguing past association with ADFA.
Those with long memories will recall that in the year after the Coral
deal, a controversy erupted involving Beverly Enterprises, ADFA and
former Arkansas Attorney General Steve Clark. At that time ADFA was
considering a deal involving a bond issue which would have benefited
Beverly Enterprises. Clark interrupted the public ADFA meeting
involving the issuance of the bonds and claimed that the Stephens
family, then the principal owners of Beverly Enterprises, had offered
him a $100,000 campaign contribution (translated- bribe) if he would
remain neutral on the deal involving ADFA and Beverly Enterprises.
Other observers of state politics have claimed that Clark's later
problems originated with his grandstand announcement "in front of God
and everybody" at the ADFA meeting.
Soon after the columns by John Crudele appeared in the New York
Post, other media began to be interested in the Coral Reinsurance
deal. Business Insurance magazine reported on the Coral deal.
An AIG spokesperson denied that AIG had organized Coral Reinsurance.
*******************************************************************
Other industry sources told John Crudele that $450 million dollars
had suddenly appeared in Coral's account in just the last two weeks
of 1987. Investigators have been unable to identify the source of
the cash infusion.
*******************************************************************
<SNIP TO END>
-------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Six Degrees of William Cohen
From: Jim Robinson <jim...@psnw.com>
Date: 1997/01/29
Message-Id: <32EFFD...@psnw.com>
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
[More Headers]
To: Jim Robinson
From: Missy Kelly
A few comments on William Cohen, and this article.
Bottom line: IMHO, APPC and GIMCorp are CIA fronts. And
Cohen is a CIA boy. And since the CIA is an arm of Flagship,
Cohen is a Flagship boy.
First, let's talk about the all these "policy" groups, paricularly
these Asian-whatever Policy groups. The use of "Asian
Policy" groups as fronts for the CIA is historical. The use of
"European Policy what-evers" as CIA fronts goes back to
post World War II. There have been, and are, dozens and
dozens of them. These CIA backed groups hold "seminars"
and "get-togethers" bringing "promising young figures from
various countries" together with US business interests. They
are funded by the CIA, and staffed by CIA connected
persons. Students of the Nugan Hand bank failure know that
the majority of thses Asian-Pacific "business Groups" are
really fronts for the CIA. For information on European CIA
front "Policy Groups" etc. see the Bio of John J. McCloy.
And look at the folks involved in APPC: Scowcroft, Carlucci,
Douglas Paal, Franklin Lavin: all formerly connected with US
Intelligence. And of course, Mr. Stout. Obviously he too is
former Intelligence. When he set up International Reporting
and Information Systems [IRIS...cute name, huh? These
clowns think they are Soooo cute]] it was touted as a 'kind of
private CIA"... which clearly shows he had, at the very least,
some kind of "in" with the intelligence business, but in all
liklihood is just plain old CIA.
Remember reading about the Hong-Kong Trade Development
Council, which Beryl Anthony represents? You know Beryl
Anthony. He was the brother-in-law of Vincent Foster. The
Riady's hold considerable sway in the Hong-Kong business
council. And think about James Riady and his involvement
with the Asian Pacific American Public Policy Institute,
[PAPPI] and "Leadership Education for Asian Pacfics, Inc."
[LATimes 7.18.93]
I've seen it too many times to not state emphatically, that,
IMHO, this APPC, which Cohen is intimately involved in, is a
CIA front.
[Aside: And I HAVE to add, I recently took another look at the
list of particpants in Clinton's little "business get-together' aka
"business conference", in LA in December 1992, right after his
election. What a FASCINATING list, especially with 4 years of
new knowledge under our belt. The only thing I will point out
at this time is that the ONLY foreigner invited was James
Riady.]
IRIS is precisely the kind of company that Henry Kissinger set
up: Kissinger & Associates. At Kissinger & Associates...who
was on the BCCI side of the equation against
law-enforcement...we found people like Brent Scowcroft, and
Lawrence Eagleberger, and Alan Stoga. We mustn't forget
Alan Stoga. He was a right hand man to Robert Abboud, who
was caught up in not just BCCI, but also the S&L scandal and
the BNL scandal. [Kissinger & Associates also ties into
BNL...on the wrong side, as you may have quessed.] Oh, and
Abboud and Stoga tie into Soviet agent Armand Hammer.
Abboud was once head of Occidental Petroleum. There's
more, but this is enough for now. There was also Sergio
Correa da Costa at Kissinger & Associates. He was BCCI's
front man down in Brazil. [And just as reminder, BCCI
connects to Hubbell, Hillary, and Lippo-boy CJ Giroir through
their work on a brief for Stephen's owned Systematics in BCCI
litigation in the late 1970's.]
Kissinger & Associates client list included American Express,
Coca-Cola, Anhueser Busch, Heinz, Hunt Oil, Chase
Manhattan Bank, AIG [American International Group, headed
by Maurice Greenberg, one-time chairman of the NY Federal
reserve Bank, and one-time candidate to head the CIA], and
Freeport McMoran..you know, with massive business
concerns in Indonesia. Henry spent years providing
"introductions" between foreign governments and his clients.
Not low level meetings for henry and his crowd...they went
straight to the top, and got audiences with the Presidents, and
top dogs. Kissinger also provided "intelligence briefings" for
his clients. Henry spent a lot of time brokering business
between his clients and China, and Indonesia.
Scowcroft in an earlier period...the same period of the BCCI
takeover of Financial General Bankshares, was an important
shareholder in in the now defunct National Bank of
Washington [NBW]. Another major shareholder was Saudi
Arabian Wafic Said. Robert Abboud was a board member of
Said's holding company and and a board member of NBW.
Abboud ties to Bin Mafouz, [who ties to George Bush Jr. and
BCCI, and Chicago, and David Edwards, and Arkansas, and
Clinton, etc..and remember that George Bush Jr. connects to
Harken. Harken connects to Alan Quasha, to his dad, who was
a lawyer for Nugan Hand in the Philipines. Harken also
connects to Jackson Stephens through David Edwards, to
Talat Othman [to Carlucci through the NCEE] to Bakhsh, to
Mike Ameen, to Kamal Adham and to george Soros, the man
behind the marijauna laws in California and Arizona.] [BCCI
also connects in many ways to Jeb Bush, in Miami, but that's
another story.]
A large chunk of NBW stock was held by Paul Laxalt, whose
firm represented BCCI in Florida when it all came tumbling
down. Other NBW directors where Tommy-the-
torts-Boggs...you know, Cokie Roberts brother. Boggs Law
firm, Patton Boggs and Blow, represented Sheik Zayed and
BCCI. This is where Ron Brown came from: Patton Boggs and
Blow.
Not to mention tie ins from there to one Gerald Stern of the
DOJ, who ably assisted in thwarting BCCI prosecution by the
DOJ. Stern was once general counsel to Occidental Petroleum.
[And Occidental leads us to soviet Armand Hammer, who
served on the board of FGB, along with a number of other
folks who had ties to the US Intelligence Community. Hammer
faciliatated Jackson Stephens initial BCCI-backed takeover
attempt of the bank. It also leads us to intimate relationships
between Hammer and BCCI Front man Ghaith Paharon, but
enough for now.]
Oh, and quess what? BCCI's #2 man, Naqvi, was represented
by Manatt, Phelps. You know Manatt, Phelps, right? Mickey
Kantor's law firm. Involved rather deeply in the Lippogate
story.
So what does NBW have to do with anything? Well, they are
noted for a number of reasons. Their board members had a
plentitude of connections to BCCI, and attempts to thwart the
investigations into BCCI. Also, Clark Clifford, who was head
of BCCI's First American Bankshares, was also a board
member of NBW before going to FAB. And so many of these
NBW associates ended up in Bush's administration. And so
many of these same people keep popping up the darndest
fashion. Over, and over, and over, and over. In July of 1992,
on a night "that could have been dubbed BCCI night", Ron
Brown then chair of the DNC, brought together a whole
plethora of BCCI funded luminaries, including Jimmy Carter,
Jesse Jackson, and John Kerry. But hey, why not? The money
flowed from BCCI to George Bush and company just as freely.
All the people involved on the political side, both Republicans
and Democrats, had connections to BCCI hired "fixers."
Anybody noticing a pattern here?
Should I even add that Henry Kissinger was the main force
behind the CIA funded UNITA, an African orgainization? You
do recall UNITA, right? In the summer of 1992, former
bar-bouncer and democratic "advance man", and later White
House security dog, Craig Livingstone got a job with UNITA
in Angola, training soldiers. I've always wondered how Craig
1. heard about this job opening, and 2. what qualifications got
him hired.
Why is it always the same players always involved in the
scandals? What other commonalities, interests do these
people have?
What would you think if I were to tell you that most of these
folks all belonged to a specific organization? Would you
behgin to wonder about this organization? I'll let YOU do the
research. See for yourself.
But back to IRIS and Stout...Obviously a CIA boy, IMHO.
IRIS failed and Stout started GIMCorp.
GIMCorp makes connections for US businesses who want to
expand into ovrerseas markets, and represents companies in
negoiations with foreign governments.
Then we find out that Stout, who "helped bankroll the [Asian
Pacific Policy Center [APPC]] when it started in 1993", shares
offices with GIMCorp. Why, they even share the same phone
service! Please. This is a classic CIA operation. Hundreds of
times I have seen this in my research. The DEA shares an
office with a "company" in Burma...connecting doors, and/or a
shared secretary. Nugan Hand's Offices in DC just happen to
be at the same address as Brigadier General Erle Cocke's
'business office'...in fact in the same office, at the same phone
number, sharing the same receptionist. General Singlaub had
an office connected by a common door to Charles Keating of
the S&L debacle. BCCI shared the office and secretary and
phone system in a plethora of "companies" that claimed they
had no connection whatsoever to BCCI. Call "Coral
Reinsurance" in the Carribean, and a receptionist answers
"American Insurance Group"...you know, AIG, Mo Greenberg,
possible head of CIA, and NY Fed Chairman. But we are told
they aren't connected. Yadda, yadda, yadda. Yeah, right.
Yes, IMHO, it is abundantly clear that APPC is a CIA front,
and GIMCorp is also a CIA operation. And ain't it just grand
that Mr. Cohen is intimately tied to both.
What a world. Now we have CIA boy Cohen leading the
Department of Defense. But hey, we have an underscretary of
the Navy, who served under now-dead "commit suicide in the
chest" Admiral Boorda, and for whom Sam Nunn ran
interefence during his confirmation process, by the name of
Dalton. A former Rand analyst, he also is a former Jackson
Stephens employee.
What the heck. Jamie Gorelick, who is leaving the DOJ, was #2
there, even though she had zero, zip, nada, experience in law
enforcement. However, she had a wealth of spook experience,
serving under John Deutch, as a counsel for the Pentagon
[Deutch became head of the CIA, as you know]. She was also
a BCCI lawyer, representing Altman and Clifford in litigation;
and she, herself, has twice been considered to head the CIA. I
have long referred to her as CIA-girl.
Need I add that two other lawyers for CIA connected BCCI
were none other than Robert Bennett, now lawyer for the
President, and one Robert Fiske? You remember Fiske, right?
He "investigated" the death of Vincent Foster. He's the clown
who informed us that the laws of gravity had been
suspeneded on the day Foster died. Fiske declared that Foster
died where he was found on a 45 degree slope but the blood
flowed UP his face.
You have to consider what the CIA really is, how it was
created, why it was created, and most importantly, who
created it. Yes, parts of the CIA do indeed serve to collect
important intelligence that this nation needs. But that job had
traditionally been done, very nicely thank-you, by other
intelligence branches under the Department of Defense. The
CIA was created by Eastern Establishment, monied interests.
Created by the Wall Street crowd, and originally MANNED by
the Wall Street crowd, the CIA was created to give select
INDUSTRY the power of the US Government to gather
intelligence that would affect the Wall Street crowd's
businesses. They also came to serve as a covert army for the
multinational business interests. Have a mine in South
America that may be nationalized? You can't send in the
Marines. Mom in Topeka is not going to give you her son's
life to save your "ore". No, send in the covert army; the CIA,
to run a covert war against the foreign leaders who threaten
PRIVATE BUSINESS interests.
The CIA serves not the NATIONAL security but the security
of the multi-nationals.
So here we sit, with a CIA boy at the helm of the DoD. Great.
Now we can use the big guns. Now we CAN send in the
Marines. Now we can spin to the American people from the
pulpit of the Secretary of Defense why we have to do this and
that, send our troops hither and yon, because it's "in the
interests of the nation", spin, spin, spin. Or conversely,
minimize the dangers of certain country's actions, which might
alarm Americans, and create a 'fuss" which might interfere with
US business interests in that country. What we will be told
will not necessarily be in the best inetrests of the american
people, but rather, the view that is in the best interests of the
multi-nationals.
So, we have Flagship officially at the helm, now. Marionnnette
Bill Clinton as President [while Vernon Jordan pulls the
strings...anybody see the "Clinton map" in yesterday's
WSJ...were you surprised to see Vernon Jordan's house so
prominently displayed? LOL!], Cohen as Secretary of Defense,
Rubin at Treasury, Albright at State, Lake at CIA, yadda,
yadda, yadda... and their minions serving in "under-secretary"
positions throughout the cabinet. Johns Hopkins Institute of
Advanced Policy Studies rules. Certain
"politically-uncorrect-to-name" organizations rule.
Oliligopolies-R-Us. Get ready to walk across the "Bridge to the
21st Century."
[anyone who wants to know more should read "Crimes of
patriots" by Kwitny; "False profits" by truell and Gurwin;
"The Chairman" by Kai Bird; "Inside Job" by Muolo, Fricker
and Pizzo; for starters]
And as for Martin Schram: IMHO he fits the perfect profile of
a journalist who is also a CIA asset...or 'friendly". The bugger
has been exposed. [Sure...I don't have voice mail at
Scripps-Howard, so I have to rely on the kindness of
strangers...you know, those CIA dudes who pick up my
bills...]
Way to go Martin. You are a pip. One of these days I am
going to do a search on Mr. Schram, and see what kind of
disinformation he's been writing all these years.
Larry-Jennie
Billy Beck wrote:
>
> lar...@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:
>
> >In his book COMPROMISED, Terry Reed wrote about how two planes could
> >manuever to cause one of those planes to "disappear" so it could
> >go off to run guns and drugs.
Billy Beck wrote:
> Cite please?
>
> I asked about this a couple of days ago. I recall the radar
> deceptions involving three planes, but I don't recall anything about
> "guns". Also: I recall mostly *cash* involved in these flights. They
> are alleged to have masked drops into Arkansas and originated in
> Louisiana, among other things.
>
> The biggest problem that I have with the Mena story is the
> shortage of cash out there. It's what first turned me around on it.
> Here's Larry pointing to Reed's account of undercover flights, but I
> think he is actually pointing to something in Reed's account *other*
> than what seems implicit.
>
> I would appreciate the cite. Unfortunately, a page number
> won't do for me, not having the book handy. If you have it, Larry,
> then this would be a good time to post it.
Get a copy of the COMPROMISED and read it. It is easily available.
Larry
Billy Beck
lar...@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:
>In his book COMPROMISED, Terry Reed wrote about how two planes could
>manuever to cause one of those planes to "disappear" so it could
>go off to run guns and drugs.
Cite please?
I asked about this a couple of days ago. I recall the radar
deceptions involving three planes, but I don't recall anything about
"guns". Also: I recall mostly *cash* involved in these flights. They
are alleged to have masked drops into Arkansas and originated in
Louisiana, among other things.
The biggest problem that I have with the Mena story is the
shortage of cash out there. It's what first turned me around on it.
Here's Larry pointing to Reed's account of undercover flights, but I
think he is actually pointing to something in Reed's account *other*
than what seems implicit.
I would appreciate the cite. Unfortunately, a page number
won't do for me, not having the book handy. If you have it, Larry,
then this would be a good time to post it.
Billy
privacy
On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:49:49 GMT, ain't...@tno.e-mail (Billy Beck)
wrote:
> I asked about this a couple of days ago. I recall the radar
>deceptions involving three planes, but I don't recall anything about
>"guns". Also: I recall mostly *cash* involved in these flights. They
>are alleged to have masked drops into Arkansas and originated in
>Louisiana, among other things.
>
> The biggest problem that I have with the Mena story is the
>shortage of cash out there. It's what first turned me around on it.
>Here's Larry pointing to Reed's account of undercover flights, but I
>think he is actually pointing to something in Reed's account *other*
>than what seems implicit.
Cash? As in 'the missing'?
[UNPROVEN, UNRESEARCHED THEORY ALERT]
Ok, I was trying very hard to bit my fingers until such time as I had
a shred of ANYTHING to walk across -- but ya've gone and hit my button
and I'm obligated to reply.
Here's a very big WHAT-IF.... but an interesting one.... to me anyway.
WHAT IF:
1) Clinton was promised his glory-spot in the Oval Office to let the
Mena runs continue..... (by whom?)
2) The 'missing money' isn't missing at all, but went overseas
(particularly to certain Chinese interests) or perhaps certain S&Ls?
3) The 'missing money' (or a portion thereof) was being returned to
'Honorable Business Partners' in America via the DNC?
4) Now that the whole mess is drifting up from the great depths,
everyone and their brother is scrambling to keep the dead good and
buried... because they ALL know this could be the proverbial
'straw'....
And here -- a question a friend asked me earlier tonight.... one that
is at once humorous and telling:
Where is Kennedy?
That old goat is usually the first one at the mic when the DNC closes
ranks. What smells so bad about any or all of these that Sir K. has
gone to sit in the shade and watch?
Random, unproven thoughts.... but interesting ones. To me at least.
[.......]
Smoke 'em if you got 'em.
----------------------------------------------------
PERMISSION SPECIFICALLY DENIED TO SEND, FORWARD, OR
OTHERWISE DELIVER BULK EMAIL OR UNSOLICITED ADVERTISE-
MENTS TO THIS EMAIL ADDRESS.
Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a
computer/modem/printer meets the definition
of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement
to such equipment. By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation
of the aforementioned Section is punishable by action
to recover actual monetary loss, or $500, whichever
is greater, for each violation.
VIOLATIONS **WILL** BE PROSECUTED.
Billy Beck
Larry-Jennie <lar...@interaccess.com> wrote:
>Billy Beck wrote:
>>
>> lar...@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:
>>
>> >In his book COMPROMISED, Terry Reed wrote about how two planes
>> >could manuever to cause one of those planes to "disappear" so it could
>> >go off to run guns and drugs.
>
>Billy Beck wrote:
>> Cite please?
>>
>> I asked about this a couple of days ago. I recall the radar
>> deceptions involving three planes, but I don't recall anything about
>> "guns". Also: I recall mostly *cash* involved in these flights. They
>> are alleged to have masked drops into Arkansas and originated in
>> Louisiana, among other things.
>>
>> The biggest problem that I have with the Mena story is the
>> shortage of cash out there. It's what first turned me around on it.
>> Here's Larry pointing to Reed's account of undercover flights, but I
>> think he is actually pointing to something in Reed's account *other*
>> than what seems implicit.
>>
>> I would appreciate the cite. Unfortunately, a page number
>> won't do for me, not having the book handy. If you have it, Larry,
>> then this would be a good time to post it.
>Get a copy of the COMPROMISED and read it. It is easily available.
Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Larry.
Let me tell you something: If *I* wrote something like, "In
his book COMPROMISED, Terry Reed wrote about..."
...I would *cite* it, complete with the pertinent excerpt and
page numbers.
I think you're lying.
Billy
Billy Beck
pri...@nowhere.com (privacy) wrote:
I would only point out that this...
>And here -- a question a friend asked me earlier tonight.... one that
>is at once humorous and telling:
>
> Where is Kennedy?
>
>That old goat is usually the first one at the mic when the DNC closes
>ranks. What smells so bad about any or all of these that Sir K. has
>gone to sit in the shade and watch?
...is ambiguous. I understand you. I only hope everyone else
understands that the question refers to The Runt of the Kennedy Litter
(contrasted to, perhaps, the defendent in the Little Rock trial).
And, the question is pertinent: The Chicken-Stroke Swimming Champion
of 1969 surely understands, from his lofty perch in the Democratic
Party hierarchy, how far down he must now squint in order to perceive
The Lying Bastard in his proper perspective.
As for questions about The Money, I commend readers to JQP's
follow-up.
Billy
privacy
On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:01:44 -0500, "John Q. Public"
<j...@globaldialog.com> wrote:
>privacy wrote:
>
>> Cash? As in 'the missing'?
>>
>> [UNPROVEN, UNRESEARCHED THEORY ALERT]
[snip]
>> Here's a very big WHAT-IF.... but an interesting one.... to me anyway.
>>
>> WHAT IF:
>>
>> 1) Clinton was promised his glory-spot in the Oval Office to let the
>> Mena runs continue..... (by whom?)
>>
>> 2) The 'missing money' isn't missing at all, but went overseas
>> (particularly to certain Chinese interests) or perhaps certain S&Ls?
>>
>> 3) The 'missing money' (or a portion thereof) was being returned to
>> 'Honorable Business Partners' in America via the DNC?
>>
>> 4) Now that the whole mess is drifting up from the great depths,
>> everyone and their brother is scrambling to keep the dead good and
>> buried... because they ALL know this could be the proverbial
>> 'straw'....
To which JQP replied [with MAJOR snippage]:
>Speculation, you say?
>
>Subject: Frightening linkage: CIA, PRC, Stephens Inc., ADFA , and
>the Clinton administration
>From: "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com>
>Date: 1997/03/15
>Message-Id: <332AEE...@globaldialog.com>
>Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
>[More Headers]
Yeouch! And here I thought I had stumbled on a novel approach to this.
[sigh] Outclassed again.
I hate when that happens.... on the other hand, this is wonderful
information and should make my little hobby quite a bit easier. My
thanks for the information.
Larry-Jennie
In article <335582...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com> writes:
><Billy Bottoms has equipment problems, and is temporarily
>unable to post to usenet. The following is unedited.>
Then how did he get email to you?
>To: j...@globaldialog.com
>Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:44:18 -0500
>Subject: Re: "Mena is not a myth" -- Russell Welch
>Message-ID: <19970416.194537...@juno.com>
>References: <1997041623...@msn.globaldialog.com>
>X-Mailer: Juno 1.23
>X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-122
>From: bbot...@juno.com (William L Bottoms)
>I have provided totally reliable contradictory evidence.
>The man purgured himself. Too good to haul cocaine
>but not to kill somebody. Evading radar on departure from
>the US on a covert operation. Had dates coinciding with
>a movie in the airplane. Two investigators and an inside
>operative testifing the C-123 didn't go anywhere. Welch
>and I testifing that Seal didn't work for the CIA or run guns.
>The two DEA handlers of Seal and myself testifing to the same.
>Pete Everson, a crewmember of the C=123 testifing to the same.
>Brown uncorroborrated. Reed uncorroborated. Piss poor legs to
>Stand on.
Who testified?
Where did they testify?
Did they testify under oath?
>>> > > John Q. Public wrote:
>>> > > >It was not under oath.
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>>> > > Get your facts straight, JQP.
>>> > >
>>> > > Excerpt from:
>>> > > The Electronic Telegraph Monday 7 August 1995 World News
>>> > > Secret service link in death of Clinton aide
>>> > > By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Washington
>>> > >
>>> > > In another deposition, L. D. Brown, the Arkansas State
>>> > > Trooper, has now repeated under oath the allegations published
>>> > > in the August edition of the American Spectator magazine.
>>> > > He said he was recruited by the CIA in 1984 - with the
>>> > > encouragement of Governor Clinton - and flew on two
>>> > > missions to Central America to deliver M-16 rifles to the
>>> > > Nicaraguan Contras.
Billy Bottoms wrote:
>He purgured himself. The man is lying. Evidence proves it.
Why then has the Justice Department not brought perjury charges
against L.D. Brown?
Larry-Jennie
In article <3356C1...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com> writes:
>Terry Reed is a liar, according to Bottoms *and* Welch.
Cite where Welch calls Reed a liar.
I can't find one.
Larry-Jennie
John Q. Public wrote:
> Terry Reed is a liar, according to Bottoms *and* Welch.
I cannot find where Welch called Reed a liar.
Did you make this us as well, JQP?
John Q. Public
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> In article <3356C1...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com> writes:
>
> >the Welch-Bottoms "summit"? Aren't you interested
> >in simply pursuing the truth, wherever it leads?
>
> >Why not post the rest of it, including Billy
> >Bottoms' responses?
>
> expect me to post Bottoms, whom I believe has not
> been totally forthright. Welch has said as much.
I want to know, yes or no, right now: Are you now accusing
Welch of saying that Bottoms is a liar? Yes or no?
John Q. Public
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> John Q. Public wrote:
>
> > Terry Reed is a liar, according to Bottoms *and* Welch.
>
> I cannot find where Welch called Reed a liar.
>
> Did you make this us as well, JQP?
>
You just hop in place for a while, Pink Bunny,
while I get permission to post it.
John Q. Public
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> Billy Beck wrote:
> >
> > lar...@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:
> >
> > >In his book COMPROMISED, Terry Reed wrote about how two planes could
> > >manuever to cause one of those planes to "disappear" so it could
> > >go off to run guns and drugs.
>
> Billy Beck wrote:
> > Cite please?
> >
> > I asked about this a couple of days ago. I recall the radar
> > deceptions involving three planes, but I don't recall anything about
> > "guns". Also: I recall mostly *cash* involved in these flights. They
> > are alleged to have masked drops into Arkansas and originated in
> > Louisiana, among other things.
> >
> > The biggest problem that I have with the Mena story is the
> > shortage of cash out there. It's what first turned me around on it.
> > Here's Larry pointing to Reed's account of undercover flights, but I
> > think he is actually pointing to something in Reed's account *other*
> > than what seems implicit.
> >
> > I would appreciate the cite. Unfortunately, a page number
> > won't do for me, not having the book handy. If you have it, Larry,
> > then this would be a good time to post it.
>
> Get a copy of the COMPROMISED and read it. It is easily available.
>
Billy, you can borrow mine.
John Q. Public
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> John Q. Public wrote:
> > has chosen to leave unreposted.
>
John Q. Public
Max Kennedy blinked at the wrong moment, and missed:
>
> On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 05:35:56 GMT, ain't...@tno.e-mail (Billy Beck)
> wrote:
> > You know...
> >
> >lar...@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:
> >
> > (...)
> >
> >>JQP, when are you going to post testimony and evidence, without
> >>dishonest editing, to support your desperate attempt to obfuscate
> >>Mena?
> >>
> >>Larry
> >
> > ...the whole whole scream of this post resounds of the tones
> >of Lindsey Lee.
>
> You know, Lindsey Lee never gives an examples to back up her claims.
>
> In example:
>
> John Q. Public creatively edited:
> >"Barry Seal was nothing but a cocaine mule for a group of
> >sleazy cocaine thugs. There was never any evidence that
> >Seal was running guns, that I'm aware....Barry Seal wasn't
> >running guns or working for the CIA." -- Russell Welch, 3/16/97
>
> Russell Welch's original words:
> >>=Billy:
> >>=Why don't you lighten up about the Mena Myth thing. Mena is not a myth.
> >>=
******************************
> >>=You're right, Barry Seal was nothing but a cocaine mule for a group of
> >>=sleazy cocaine thugs. There was never any evidence that Seal was running
> >>=guns, that I'm aware.
******************************
> >>=But the fact is that you don't have any idea what
> >>=has gone on at Mena. I promise you that you don't know everything that
> >>=Seal was doing in Mena. You flew cocaine for Seal and you had little
> >>=business in Mena. You contardict yourself over what was taking place
> >>=beyond mid 1983. I haven't even began to present my case yet; but, you
> >>=seem to be getting cocky over what you're seeing. Hadaway and Capehart
> >>=were never apart of my investigation. They weren't even deposed until
> >>=very late in the investigation; but still, you seem to think that
> >>=Hampton is a better person and source of information than they were.
> >>=I've got a serious problem with that. Without Hampton, or somebody else
> >>=doing the same thing, Seal's method of smuggling could not have been
> >>=accomplished. Hampton knew this and willingly took part in it. Even now
> >>=he won't except his responsibility in that organization, like you have.
> >>=If Hampton will come and say half as much truth as Hadaway and Capehart
> >>=have, I'll change my opinion. In the mean time, fine, say that, as far
> >>=as you know, Barry Seal wasn't running guns or working for the CIA. When
> >>=you say that, you haven't said very much; but, I assume you've said all
> >>=that you can say. Then leave it alone. For the life of me, Billy,
> >>=sometimes I don't know what in the hell you're talking about.
> >>
> >>=Russell Welch
>
and all the following discussion between Welch and Bottoms, in which
Welch states that if Seal had been hauling guns out of Mena in 1983,
1984,
or 1985, Welch would have caught him at it.
And Max also missed, apparently, the discussion about the likelihood
that the *one* load of cocaine that Welch thought that Seal had brought
in,
actually never got there because of mechanical breakdown.
No guns; no cocaine. And essentially no money laundering by Seal through
Mena area banks.
Live with it.
John Q. Public
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> In article <3356C1...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com> writes:
>
> >Terry Reed is a liar, according to Bottoms *and* Welch.
>
> Cite where Welch calls Reed a liar.
>
It's in email, and I'm attempting to get permission to
post it. Meanwhile, if you read the Welch-Bottoms series
closely, you will see hints, particularly in the discussion
about the photograph. But beyond that, you tell me how
to square up Welch's assertion that Seal did not transport
weapons out of Mena in 1983, 1984, and 1985, and that he
imported perhaps as much as one load of cocaine, with
Reed's claims. It can't be done.
Daniel Hopsicker
In article <lar-jen.35...@interaccess.com>,
lar...@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:
>In article <335558...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public"
<j...@globaldialog.com> writes:
>
>>Lew Glendenning wrote:
>>>
>>> John Q. Public wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
>>> > > Excerpt from:
>>> > > The Electronic Telegraph Monday 7 August 1995 World News
>>> > > Secret service link in death of Clinton aide
>>> > > By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Washington
>>> > >
>>> > > In another deposition, L. D. Brown, the Arkansas State
>>> > > Trooper, has now repeated under oath the allegations published
>>> > > in the August edition of the American Spectator magazine.
>>> > > He said he was recruited by the CIA in 1984 - with the
>>> > > encouragement of Governor Clinton - and flew on two
>>> > > missions to Central America to deliver M-16 rifles to the
>>> > > Nicaraguan Contras.
>>> >
>>> > Did he swear under oath that he flew with Barry Seal on
>>> > Seal's C123 in 1984, twice? Answer, please, yes or no.
>>>
>>> I think so. But, why the attitude?
>
>>Why the attitude?
>
>>Because If Reed or Brown are telling the truth, then Russell
>>Welch and Al Hadaway are lying, and vice versa. There are
>>no other, more palatable possibilities that I can conjure up.
>
>
>Or they are all telling the truth.
>
>In his book COMPROMISED, Terry Reed wrote about how two planes could
>manuever to cause one of those planes to "disappear" so it could
>go off to run guns and drugs. Seal's methods were slick. That may
>be why we are reading these contradictions.
>
>Larry
----------------
hi all...
i've 'lurked' w/out posting, sometimes guiltily. i've spent
well into 5 figures in the past three months shooting a TV pilot
looking into mena/seal/train deaths etc.
It was through my efforts that Russell welch and Billy Bob
Bottoms met, and engaged in the 'conversations' commented on
here ad nauseum.
so you can guage MY motives:
most of what i've learned will be available in a few short
weeks, hopefully, via TV/video/book.
I'm seeking to mount a TV series
called: conspiracy: the secret history. I would like it to
tell the real story of my life and times, starting approx.
when captain kangaroo came on the scene.
and yes, i hope it makes me rich and famous. if it does,
its cause i deserve it. i've paid, and am paying, for my
'education'in the currency of the realm: money, sweat, effort.
also: i don't believe there is an honest discusion going on here.
after long perusal, my conclusion is that 'certain' posters only
real purpose is disinfo. fuck that, its a waste of time. I
would love to be proved wrong, but that's where it stands now.
I believe mena is a place where the secret goverment
surfaces in ways which we can learn, and be instructed by.
but here's one thing i've learned: its been 'common' knowledge &
verified, that Seal kept "twins" of his planes; i.e. two
separate navajo's, for ex., that both bore the same
markings...
a common drug smuggler trick, with obvious benefits.
what hasn't, I don't think, been generally known is this:
there were at least THREE C-123K's, as well.
the other two were kept in Ft. Lauderdale, Fla.
so, Hadaway could be watching one not move at mena, while
two others flew anywhere in the world they wanted.
btw...my sources, which I consider unimpeachable
tell me Barry Seal was CIA, something I suspected as soon as
I read about the '72 bust for 7 tons of plastic explosive for
anti-castro cubans.
Was this just a 747 pilot with a wild hair? i thought not,
and now i KNOW not.
Regards,
daniel hopsicker
economic television
"U.S. Drug Policy: If You Have To Ask, You're Not Allowed to Know."
Larry-Jennie
John Q. Public wrote:
>
> Larry-Jennie wrote:
> >
> > ><Billy Bottoms has equipment problems, and is temporarily
> > >unable to post to usenet. The following is unedited.>
Larry-Jennie wrote:
> > Then how did he get email to you?
John Q. Pubilc wrote:
> Via the CIA transponder he's got on the roof of his mobile
> base unit. Satellite, all the way. Ever hear of Project ELF?
> It's nothing like what you've heard, at all.
That makes more sense than that Bottoms could email JQP, yet not
post to UseNet.
Expecting an honest answer out of John Q. Public is like getting
a frank response from Hillary Clinton on WH travel office documents.
> > >To: j...@globaldialog.com
> > >Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:44:18 -0500
> > >Subject: Re: "Mena is not a myth" -- Russell Welch
> > >Message-ID: <19970416.194537...@juno.com>
> > >References: <1997041623...@msn.globaldialog.com>
> > >X-Mailer: Juno 1.23
> > >X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-122
> > >From: bbot...@juno.com (William L Bottoms)
> >
> > >I have provided totally reliable contradictory evidence.
> > >The man purgured himself. Too good to haul cocaine
> > >but not to kill somebody. Evading radar on departure from
> > >the US on a covert operation. Had dates coinciding with
> > >a movie in the airplane. Two investigators and an inside
> > >operative testifing the C-123 didn't go anywhere. Welch
> > >and I testifing that Seal didn't work for the CIA or run guns.
> > >The two DEA handlers of Seal and myself testifing to the same.
> > >Pete Everson, a crewmember of the C=123 testifing to the same.
> > >Brown uncorroborrated. Reed uncorroborated. Piss poor legs to
> > >Stand on.
Larry-Jennie wrote:
> > Who testified?
John Q. Public wrote:
> He's talking about Welch and Hadaway.
Larry-Jennie wrote:
> > Where did they testify?
John Q. Public wrote:
> Welch testified directly to you and me, via usenet.
> You, that is you, Larry, have reposted it several times.
JQP, you obfuscating worm.
Russell Welch NEVER EVER wrote that Seal did not work for the CIA.
Welch did say he did not catch Seal running guns.
In addition, the CIA CONFIRMED SEAL worked for the Agency. The FBI
described Seal as a CIA operative. Barry Seal testified under oath
that he worked for the CIA.
Why does John Q. Public obfuscate so hard to protect CIA culpability
for black oeprations at Mena?
John Q. Public wrote:
> Hadaway testified to a Baton Rouge newspaper reporter,
> who reported it in an article that you, Larry, that is
> you, Larry, have posted to usenet on several occasions.
That article says Hadaway had his eye on the C-123, but the article
never says the plane did not leave Mena.
John Q. Public
Daniel Hopsicker wrote:
>
> In article <lar-jen.35...@interaccess.com>,
> lar...@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:
>
> >In article <335558...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public"
> <j...@globaldialog.com> writes:
> >
> >>Lew Glendenning wrote:
> >>>
> >>> John Q. Public wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > Larry-Jennie wrote:
> >
Hopsicker:
You were witnessed by several people to have said, in the
presence of others, that you had no story to produce.
This occurred after your to-and-fro with Billy Bottoms,
in which you tried to destroy his credibility, and he
ate you alive. Russell Welch even commented that Bottoms
had essentially crushed your effort to discredit him.
If I have to, I will do what I can to keep you honest.
John Q. Public
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> John Q. Public wrote:
> >
> > Larry-Jennie wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <335582...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com> writes:
> > > ><Billy Bottoms has equipment problems, and is temporarily
> > > >unable to post to usenet. The following is unedited.>
>
> Larry-Jennie wrote:
> > > Then how did he get email to you?
>
> John Q. Pubilc wrote:
> > Via the CIA transponder he's got on the roof of his mobile
> > base unit. Satellite, all the way. Ever hear of Project ELF?
> > It's nothing like what you've heard, at all.
>
> That makes more sense than that Bottoms could email JQP, yet not
> post to UseNet.
The only monitor that Bottoms currently has is Daniel Hopsicker's,
in partial payment for what Hopsicker owes Bottoms. Unfortunately,
the monitor Hopsicker gave to Bottoms is defective, and only
a portion of the screen is visible. In addition, Bottoms
has dropped his ISP.
Larry-Jennie
Billy Beck wrote:
> >> lar...@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:
> >>
> >> >In his book COMPROMISED, Terry Reed wrote about how two planes
> >> >could manuever to cause one of those planes to "disappear" so it could
> >> >go off to run guns and drugs.
> >
> >Billy Beck wrote:
> >> Cite please?
Larry-Jennie wrote:
> >Get a copy of the COMPROMISED and read it. It is easily available.
Billy Beck wrote:
> Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Larry.
>
> Let me tell you something: If *I* wrote something like, "In
> his book COMPROMISED, Terry Reed wrote about..."
>
> ...I would *cite* it, complete with the pertinent excerpt and
> page numbers.
>
> I think you're lying.
Have you caught me lying? Though I am often accused, the evidence is nonexistant.
Remember Billy, I am the one who cites source material.
And you should still pick up your own copy.
Excerpt from:
Compromised
by Terry Reed & John Cummings(C)1994
S. P. I. Books
pps 134-136
-----
The next morning at 0830 hours, the weather did permit. Reed was orbiting
high above the Texarkana VOR (ground based navigation transmitter) at 10,500
feet in a right-hand holding pattern on the 156-degree radial of the fix. At
exactly the prescribed rendezvous time, he spotted Seal and Camp's identical
Senecas flying in picture-perfect, piggy-back formation heading northerly,
tracking the 336-degree radial of the Shreveport VOR at 4,500 feet MSL.
He had been monitoring their air-to-air conversation on the discreet
frequency of 122.97, which ground control did not monitor. He knew by Seal
and Camp's position reports they were nearing DUBOW intersection, a
navigational fix 17 miles south of Texarkana on vector 13 (FAA designated air
highway).
Seal's voice came on the radio first. ''You got a visual on us yet,
Terry? It'll be easier to spot us at night 'cause (only) Emile will have his
navigation lights."
''Roger, I've got a visual on you. You're in my 12 o'clock low except
you're tucked in so tight all I can see form here is one airplane," Terry
replied.
That s the way it's supposed to be," Seal answered. "Get on down here
with us. Convert your altitude to air speed and try to tuck in under me
before we get
Terry dove his Seneca down to join Seal and Camp at their 4,500-foot
altitude, reversing course and coming in up under Seal, who was below Camp.
He inched into position under Seal's's plane until he could "count the rivets"
that attached the tailhook to the bottom of Seal's.
At this point, they were layered like slices of bread in a club sandwich.
The three aircraft flying in formation like this made Terry flash back to the
thought of three B-52s flying in a "cell" formation while on an "Arc Light"
bombing mission over Laos. Reed could tell by the way Seal and Camp were
flying in union that they had done this many times before. He wasn't quite
ready yet to get as close to Seal as Seal was to Camp.
Seal, since he could not see Reed, needed the radio to instruct him.
"Now, I'm gonna have to jibber-jabber a lot since you're in my six (mean:
out of eight in the back and below Seal said to Reed in a relaxed, Cajun
drawl. "When we do this for real, we'll keep radio communications to a
minimum. But, for right now, I'll just talk ya though it.
"I'm showin' about 10 DME (distance-measuring equipment) from Texarkana
and I'm squawkin' nuthin' as you should be also, Terry," Seal instructed.
By squawking, Seal was referring to their airborne radios called
transponders, whose purpose is to amplify radar signals bounced off aircraft
by ground based radar. By his reference to "squawkin' nuthin," Seal meant his
transponder was turned off at this point as was Reed's. Only Camp's would be
operational and ATC ground would be tracking only him.
At this point, Seal added, "Emile is on center frequency and squawkin'
[their assigned code]. Just prior to the fix, Emile's gonna ask for ident.
When he does I'm gonna bank right in a standard rate turn in order to pick up
vector 57. Hot Springs. Now, be careful there, 'cause you gotta turn with me
at the same angle and everything, or you'll get in my wake turbulence and it
can get pretty hairy. So, when Emile says 'roger ident,'... ident will be the
word we both execute the turn on, and be sure to use standard rate. Any
questions?"
The three aircraft in a tri-level piggyback formation continued tracking
toward the Texarkana VOR as Camp simulated radio conversation with enroute
traffic control (ATC) in Memphis. Just as Seal had warned Reed, the moment
Camp responded with the word "ident" Seal banked his plane right in order to
intercept the 030-degree radial of the Texarkana VOR outbound in a no
easterly direction.
It was all Terry could do to keep tucked in tight and follow Seal's plane
through the dangerous maneuver, while wondering what this would this be like
at night. Camp's plane continued outbound on the 32~2-degree radial headed
toward the Rich Mountain VOR, while Reed wrestled with his aircraft that was,
in fact, experiencing turbulence from Seal's wake.
"Remember what they taught you in flight school, Terry. My wake flows
outward and downward. Try to stay exactly in my six and you'll have a
smoother ride. "
On the real flight, Camp would have continued on and landed at Mena, but
for this practice mission, he rejoined the other two planes, and was busy
taking photographs of Reed and Seal's planes flying in perfect unison and now
stabilized on the course taking them to Hot Springs.
"From here you two look like you're either re-fuelin' in mid-air or tryin' ta
fuck each other," Camp joked over the radio.
Next, it was necessary for them to make a controlled descent together
down to the proper altitude for aircraft flying eastbound. This was no easy
task. It took an immense amount of concentration. Terry thought about the
problems of doing this maneuver at night. He had often watched in awe the way
the Air Force Thunderbirds, the precision flying team, maneuvered their
aircraft within feet of each other while streaking through the sky. But could
they do it at night without lights? He wondered.
"Terry, at the Hot Springs VOR, you turn your transponder on to twelve
hundred and start talking to Little Rock approach. That'll make us about 45
miles out of Adams Field. When they assign you a squawk code, and the instant
you say, 'Roger ident,' I'm gonna dive directly in front of you in order to
get down to the deck while your (radar) return is still blossoming on their
scope," Seal radioed.
What Seal was describing to Reed was a clever way of masking any
secondary radar "returns" bouncing off his aircraft by utilizing an inherent
error within the ATC's radar system. When a controller assigns a special
squawk code to an aircraft he is "handling," he asks the pilot to press a
button on his transponder, thus differentiating it from other aircraft on his
scope. When the pilot does this, his "return" on the controller's scope
blossoms, or enlarges, considerably. Seal was taking advantage of this
procedure in order to better evade radar detection.
Just like clockwork, Reed began communicating with Little Rock ATC while
over the Hot Springs VOR.
"Little Rock approach, this is Seneca, eight-two-seven-five Tango, level
three thousand five hundred, tracking the zero-seven-one degree radial of Hot
Springs VOR, squawking twelve hundred, inbound Adams."
"Roger Seneca seven-five Tango, squawk two-seven-four-three and ident."
"Roger, Little Rock, Seneca seven-five Tango is going to
two-seven-four-three and squawking ident."
The moment the word "ident" left Terry's lips, Seal's aircraft abruptly
dove from its position directly in front of and slightly above Terry and went
straight over his nose, catching him unprepared for the severe wake
turbulence or disturbed air generated by Seal's maneuver.
After recovering control of his aircraft and scrambling to locate the
pilot's clip board that had fallen from its mount as a result of the severe
jolt, Terry could hear Seal laughing on their discreet frequency, the one ATC
couldn't hear.
"Oh, I forgot to tell ya, Terry. When I split, it can get real rough back
there. Ask Emile. He damned near wiped out the first time, too."
Terry knew he had been set up since he could hear Camp laughing, too.
Just as the area directly behind a boat provides a water-skier with a smooth
surface, flying slightly above or below and directly in line with another
plane is not turbulent. But exiting that smooth air space and crossing the
wake can produce a very rough ride.
Meanwhile, with his aircraft now again stabilized, Terry took time to
notice Seal skimming along at tree-top level tracking inbound toward I-430
looking for the drop zone. This run was for practice, so, approximately 10
miles south west of Adams, Reed canceled his destination flight plan and all
three pilots turned west and flew back to Mena.
After a thorough debriefing on the ground of the practice run, they
decided to try it again one more time for safety's sake. After a second dry
run, all three felt confident with the maneuvers and coordination involved.
All that was left was the real thing...at night.
As the three aircraft split up near Little Rock in order to go their
separate ways later that afternoon, Seal came on their discreet frequency and
said to Terry, "Go to the Chink's office, he'll give you your rendezvous
instructions for the real run."
Larry-Jennie
In article <335809...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com> writes:
>Larry-Jennie wrote:
>>
>> In article <3356C0...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public"
><j...@globaldialog.com> writes:
>>
>> >There are posts that occurred after this one, that Larry
>> >has chosen to leave unreposted. So be it.
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>> JQP, Welch has not made any posts since then.
John Q. Public wrote:
>The conversation between Welch and Bottoms did not
>end with the post you quoted.
Welch's posts are huge. One goes well over 50 pages
on my word processor. My newsreader won't post documents
that long. And no one will know what section is pertinent.
If you have a Welch passage which contradicts me, then
post it. But you can't.
I honestly excerpt what Welch wrote. I don't edit him
to change his meaning.
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>> The only ones are from Billy Bottoms, drug pilot and informant,
>> who distorts what Welch posted as energetically and dishonestly
>> as you have.
John Q. Public wrote:
>Bottoms says that Seal didn't import drugs into Arkansas, with the
>slightly possible exception of one load.
Welch most certainly does say Seal imported cocaine into Arkansas,
along with Mena area law enforcement investigators Terry Capehart,
Charles Black and Joseph Hardegree.
Why are you and Bottoms working so hard to get the cocaine out of
Arkansas?
The evidence is heavily against you.
John Q. Public wrote:
>Welch says that Seal didn't import drugs into Arkansas, with
>the probable exception of one load.
You are obfuscating your ass off to get the cocaine out of Arkansas.
As you admitted, Welch describes one well documented case. Welch
also posted a deposition from Polk (Mena) County deputy sheriff
Terry Capehart about a second specific documented example of Seal
bringing cocaine to Mena.
Why are you working so hard to get the cocaine out of Arkansas?
Larry
j...@globaldialog.com
> Seal's voice came on the radio first. ''You got a visual on us yet,
> Terry?
from the first (private) email from Russell Welch to Billy Bottoms:
From: "Russell F. Welch" <rwe...@CSWNET.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 1996 9:51 PM
To: bbot...@rouge.net
Subject: B. Seal
<big snip>
"You're right, Terry Reed is a lier. He's never met Barry Seal. In my
opinion, Reed has done more to create confusion about Mena than
anybody else...."
j...@globaldialog.com
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
>
>
> John Q. Public wrote:
> >Bottoms says that Seal didn't import drugs into Arkansas, with the
> >slightly possible exception of one load.
>
> Welch most certainly does say Seal imported cocaine into Arkansas,
> along with Mena area law enforcement investigators Terry Capehart,
> Charles Black and Joseph Hardegree.
One load. Maybe.
>
> Why are you and Bottoms working so hard to get the cocaine out of
> Arkansas?
Because it was in Louisiana.
>
> The evidence is heavily against you.
Why continue your disinformation campaign?
j...@globaldialog.com
<Billy Bottoms is unable (temporarily) to post to usenet;
this is forwarded, unedited.>
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>Excerpt from:
>Compromised
>by Terry Reed & John Cummings(C)1994
>S. P. I. Books
>pps 134-136
>-----
> The next morning at 0830 hours, the weather did permit. Reed was
>orbiting
>high above the Texarkana VOR (ground based navigation transmitter) at
>10,500
>feet in a right-hand holding pattern on the 156-degree radial of the
>fix. At
>exactly the prescribed rendezvous time, he spotted Seal and Camp's
>identical
>Senecas flying in picture-perfect, piggy-back formation heading
>northerly,
>tracking the 336-degree radial of the Shreveport VOR at 4,500 feet
>MSL.
> He had been monitoring their air-to-air conversation on the
>discreet
>frequency of 122.97, which ground control did not monitor. He knew by
We never communicated on VHF as there is no such thing as a
discreet freguency in the VHF frequency band designated for
air to air communication. We had special UHF encrypted radios
outside scanner ranges which we used for discreet communication.
We had sixteen or so of these radios. The frequency they transmitted
on as I said were outside the band which could be picked up by
scanners. These radios were very expensive and sophisticated.
>Seal
>and Camp's position reports they were nearing DUBOW intersection, a
>navigational fix 17 miles south of Texarkana on vector 13 (FAA
>designated air
>highway).
> Seal's voice came on the radio first. ''You got a visual on us
>yet,
>Terry? It'll be easier to spot us at night 'cause (only) Emile will
>have his
>navigation lights."
> ''Roger, I've got a visual on you. You're in my 12 o'clock low
>except
>you're tucked in so tight all I can see form here is one airplane,"
>Terry
>replied.
So this is at night? You couldn't see anything but the lights
anyway. This is a made up story by someone who is not
an expert.
> That s the way it's supposed to be," Seal answered. "Get on down
>here
>with us. Convert your altitude to air speed and try to tuck in under
>me
>before we get
> Terry dove his Seneca down to join Seal and Camp at their
>4,500-foot
>altitude, reversing course and coming in up under Seal, who was below
>Camp.
>He inched into position under Seal's's plane until he could "count the
>rivets"
>that attached the tailhook to the bottom of Seal's.
Tail hook? We had no tail hooks.
> At this point, they were layered like slices of bread in a club
>sandwich.
>The three aircraft flying in formation like this made Terry flash back
>to the
>thought of three B-52s flying in a "cell" formation while on an "Arc
>Light"
>bombing mission over Laos. Reed could tell by the way Seal and Camp
>were
>flying in union that they had done this many times before. He wasn't
>quite
>ready yet to get as close to Seal as Seal was to Camp.
Camp's aviation skills were very poor. He could not fly
formation and noone would fly on his lead. Camp very
rarely was allowed to fly by himself and then only in VFR
(good) weather. The only time he flew in bad weather
alone, he killed himself.
> Seal, since he could not see Reed, needed the radio to instruct
>him.
> "Now, I'm gonna have to jibber-jabber a lot since you're in my six
>(mean:
>out of eight in the back and below Seal said to Reed in a relaxed,
>Cajun
>drawl. "When we do this for real, we'll keep radio communications to a
>minimum. But, for right now, I'll just talk ya though it.
> "I'm showin' about 10 DME (distance-measuring equipment) from
>Texarkana
>and I'm squawkin' nuthin' as you should be also, Terry," Seal
>instructed.
Night formation flying requires at the least formation
lights on the other airplane. You cannot fly form on
an unlit airplane. You must have at least two source
lights to reference on. This could be position lights
or specially constructed lower intensity formation lights.
Reed not mentioning such demonstrates his lack of
expertise regarding this type of flying. We did not have
low intensity formation lights on our airplanes.
> By squawking, Seal was referring to their airborne radios called
>transponders, whose purpose is to amplify radar signals bounced off
>aircraft
>by ground based radar. By his reference to "squawkin' nuthin," Seal
>meant his
>transponder was turned off at this point as was Reed's. Only Camp's
>would be
>operational and ATC ground would be tracking only him.
> At this point, Seal added, "Emile is on center frequency and
>squawkin'
>[their assigned code]. Just prior to the fix, Emile's gonna ask for
>ident.
>When he does I'm gonna bank right in a standard rate turn in order to
>pick up
>vector 57. Hot Springs. Now, be careful there, 'cause you gotta turn
>with me
>at the same angle and everything, or you'll get in my wake turbulence
>and it
>can get pretty hairy. So, when Emile says 'roger ident,'... ident will
>be the
>word we both execute the turn on, and be sure to use standard rate.
>Any
>questions?"
More evidence of Reed's lack of expertise or understanding
of formation flight. All one following lead has to know is
when a turn is going to be executed as a courtesy warning.
When one flys form on another aircraft one keeps his eyes
glued to the lead and matches movement for movement.
> The three aircraft in a tri-level piggyback formation continued
>tracking
>toward the Texarkana VOR as Camp simulated radio conversation with
>enroute
>traffic control (ATC) in Memphis. Just as Seal had warned Reed, the
>moment
>Camp responded with the word "ident" Seal banked his plane right in
>order to
>intercept the 030-degree radial of the Texarkana VOR outbound in a no
>easterly direction.
> It was all Terry could do to keep tucked in tight and follow
>Seal's plane
>through the dangerous maneuver, while wondering what this would this
>be like
>at night. Camp's plane continued outbound on the 32~2-degree radial
>headed
>toward the Rich Mountain VOR, while Reed wrestled with his aircraft
Oh my god. Reed expects me to swallow that Seal was
practicing such manuevers during broad daylight in the
Mena area???? Three airplanes piggy backed would
draw considerable attention. Besides the manuever
Reed is talking about here is a simple formation turn and
not dangerous at all. If you are tucked in wake turbulence is
not a factor as one flys under or beside it. Wake turbulence
extends behind the aircraft and then decends at about 500
feet per minute.
>that was,
>in fact, experiencing turbulence from Seal's wake.
> "Remember what they taught you in flight school, Terry. My wake
>flows
>outward and downward. Try to stay exactly in my six and you'll have a
>smoother ride. "
> On the real flight, Camp would have continued on and landed at
>Mena, but
>for this practice mission, he rejoined the other two planes, and was
>busy
>taking photographs of Reed and Seal's planes flying in perfect unison
>and now
>stabilized on the course taking them to Hot Springs.
Where are these pictures??? We would not take
such pictures. Only after our clandestine operations
were over did we film tactics that we used. I have video
of this. Reed is on a fantasy trip.
> "From here you two look like you're either re-fuelin' in mid-air
>or
>tryin' ta
>fuck each other," Camp joked over the radio.
Two Piper twin engine Seneca's refueling each other???
> Next, it was necessary for them to make a controlled descent
>together
>down to the proper altitude for aircraft flying eastbound. This was no
>easy
>task. It took an immense amount of concentration. Terry thought about
>the
This is another standard simple formation manuever. Nothing
difficult about it at all, be it night or day. One needs a courtesy
warning of the decent by some type of signal and one needs
at least dim formation lights at night. Neither of whch Reed
discusses.
>problems of doing this maneuver at night. He had often watched in awe
>the way
>the Air Force Thunderbirds, the precision flying team, maneuvered
>their
>aircraft within feet of each other while streaking through the sky.
>But could
>they do it at night without lights? He wondered.
Nobody can do it at night without lights. Reed has totally
exposed himself here. Anyone who knows anything about
formation flying knows this. Reed is lying. I don't care how
close one is to an airplane at night, you can't see it well enough
to fly formation on it without at least formation lights. You have
to be able to see at least two lights to refernce on. One light
doesn't give you depth reference one needs to hold position.
Two light formation can be accomplished but is more difficult.
Three lights makes it a piece of cake and not much different
from day formation flying. If standard rate turns and normal
decents are dangerous manuevers to Reed, he had no skill
at formation flying at all. The lack of detail about necessary
reference for this manuever and his reference that form flying
can be done on a dark aircraft proves he is lying.
Reed continually ignores distance reference in all of his
reports. For all the controller knows he could be 10 to 100
miles away. His VOR rendezvous earlier with Seal ignored
this distance reference.
> "Roger Seneca seven-five Tango, squawk two-seven-four-three and
>ident."
> "Roger, Little Rock, Seneca seven-five Tango is going to
>two-seven-four-three and squawking ident."
> The moment the word "ident" left Terry's lips, Seal's aircraft
>abruptly
>dove from its position directly in front of and slightly above Terry
>and went
>straight over his nose, catching him unprepared for the severe wake
>turbulence or disturbed air generated by Seal's maneuver.
This is the most outrageous manuever I have ever heard.
It is utterly ridiculous to perform such a manuever and
absolutely no need for it. The lead aircraft is always above
or beside following aircraft. If a manuever such as breaking
formation is to be conducted it would be done by the aircraft
following and absolutely ridiculous to have the lead aircraft
dive over and in front of an aircraft following below. Reed is
completely out to lunch and has no comprehension of what
he is discussing.
> After recovering control of his aircraft and scrambling to locate
>the
>pilot's clip board that had fallen from its mount as a result of the
>severe
>jolt, Terry could hear Seal laughing on their discreet frequency, the
>one ATC
>couldn't hear.
We used different radios for this. No one in their right
mind would or have the need to perform such a manuever.
Reed is a liar and living in a fantasy world.
> "Oh, I forgot to tell ya, Terry. When I split, it can get real
>rough back
>there. Ask Emile. He damned near wiped out the first time, too."
Emile had no formation flying skills at all.
Obviously neither does Reed.
> Terry knew he had been set up since he could hear Camp laughing,
>too.
>Just as the area directly behind a boat provides a water-skier with a
>smooth
>surface, flying slightly above or below and directly in line with
>another
>plane is not turbulent. But exiting that smooth air space and crossing
>the
>wake can produce a very rough ride.
> Meanwhile, with his aircraft now again stabilized, Terry took time
>to
>notice Seal skimming along at tree-top level tracking inbound toward
>I-430
>looking for the drop zone. This run was for practice, so,
>approximately 10
>miles south west of Adams, Reed canceled his destination flight plan
>and all
>three pilots turned west and flew back to Mena.
Reed was not at Mena during this time. Russell Welch over
heard Reed asking where Mena was and how to get there
beyond the date of 1988. Anyone can ask Welch about this.
> After a thorough debriefing on the ground of the practice run,
>they
>decided to try it again one more time for safety's sake. After a
>second dry
>run, all three felt confident with the maneuvers and coordination
>involved.
>All that was left was the real thing...at night.
> As the three aircraft split up near Little Rock in order to go
>their
>separate ways later that afternoon, Seal came on their discreet
>frequency and
>said to Terry, "Go to the Chink's office, he'll give you your
>rendezvous
>instructions for the real run."
>
Can't believe you posted this garbage Larry. You obviously
know nothing about these types of manuevers or you wouldn't
have picked this passage for sure. What you have done is help
expose Reed as a liar. I know that wasn't your intention.
Billy Beck
Larry-Jennie <lar...@interaccess.com> wrote:
>Billy Beck wrote:
>
>> >> lar...@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >In his book COMPROMISED, Terry Reed wrote about how two planes
>> >> >could manuever to cause one of those planes to "disappear" so it
>> >> >could go off to run guns and drugs.
>> >
>> >Billy Beck wrote:
>> >> Cite please?
>
>Larry-Jennie wrote:
>> >Get a copy of the COMPROMISED and read it. It is easily available.
>
>Billy Beck wrote:
>> Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Larry.
>>
>> Let me tell you something: If *I* wrote something like, "In
>> his book COMPROMISED, Terry Reed wrote about..."
>>
>> ...I would *cite* it, complete with the pertinent excerpt and
>> page numbers.
>>
>> I think you're lying.
>Have you caught me lying?
I'm not sure yet.
>Excerpt from:
>Compromised
>by Terry Reed & John Cummings(C)1994
>S. P. I. Books
>pps 134-136
(got the cite - recall it well.)
Now, here's what I want you to do: I want you to cite the
*purpose* of these flights, right here in front of everybody,
including those who have never laid eyes on this book before.
Specifically: the cite you offered did no in any way refer to "guns"
or "drugs", as did your quote, above. Here it is again:
>In his book COMPROMISED, Terry Reed wrote about how two planes
>could manuever to cause one of those planes to "disappear" so it
>could go off to run guns and drugs.
That's what you said: the purpose of the radar separation
profile was to free an aircraft to "go off to run guns and drugs".
The cite you offered said *nothing* about "guns and drugs".
So, what's the conclusion? Here you are posing as some sort
of authority, citing "source material", and the "source material"
didn't even come close to supporting your contention.
Go ahead, Larry. Keep reading that episode to us.
Or, is it that you already *have* read it, and you know where
it's going?
Billy
Larry-Jennie
Billy Beck wrote:
>
> >> >> lar...@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >In his book COMPROMISED, Terry Reed wrote about how two planes
> >> >> >could manuever to cause one of those planes to "disappear" so it
> >> >> >could go off to run guns and drugs.
> >> >
> >> >Billy Beck wrote:
> >> >> Cite please?
Larry-Jennie posted:
> >Excerpt from:
> >Compromised
> >by Terry Reed & John Cummings(C)1994
> >S. P. I. Books
> >pps 134-136
Billy Beck wrote:
> (got the cite - recall it well.)
>
> Now, here's what I want you to do: I want you to cite the
> *purpose* of these flights, right here in front of everybody,
> including those who have never laid eyes on this book before.
> Specifically: the cite you offered did no in any way refer to "guns"
> or "drugs", as did your quote, above. Here it is again:
>
> >In his book COMPROMISED, Terry Reed wrote about how two planes
> >could manuever to cause one of those planes to "disappear" so it
> >could go off to run guns and drugs.
The cite described Barry Seal training Terry Reed and Emile Camp on how
three planes can fake air traffic control and "disappear" one of the planes.
That disappeared plane can smuggle whatever it wanted.
In COMPROMISED, Reed wrote about the Contra guns from his experiences providing
engineering consulting for the manufacturing of the guns in Arkansas. I cannot
find, nor recall (I read COMPROMISED 4 years ago) whether Reed wrote about Seal
flying guns. Reed's direct experience with CIA cocaine did not come until he
was in Mexico.
What Reed did notice in Barry Seal's training exercises was Seal airdropping
duffel bags onto Seth Ward's ranch. Seal claimed those duffel bags were
filled with millions in cash, airdropped weekly.
And when considering Reed, remember there is no doubt that Clinton security
chief Buddy Young arrested Reed. There is a there there.
Larry
lar...@interaccess.com
In article <335A45...@globaldialog.com>,
j...@globaldialog.com wrote:
>
> Larry-Jennie wrote:
> > John Q. Public wrote:
> > >Bottoms says that Seal didn't import drugs into Arkansas, with the
> > >slightly possible exception of one load.
Larry-Jennie wrote:
> > Welch most certainly does say Seal imported cocaine into Arkansas,
> > along with Mena area law enforcement investigators Terry Capehart,
> > Charles Black and Joseph Hardegree.
John Q. Public wrote:
> One load. Maybe.
JQP, how do you turn TWO WELL DOCUMENTED loads into "one maybe?"
Excerpt from:
Subject: Unravelled Response
From: true...@worldnet.att.net (Russell Welch)
Date: 1997/03/12
Message-Id: <3326fee2...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
You told me that past the middle of 1983, you
began slipping away from Seal's drug activity and didn't
know everything that he was doing. After I told you about
watching Seal and Billy Earle, Jr., fly into Rich Mountain
Aviation, on the night of December 13, 1983, preparing
for a smuggling trip, you told me that Seal had told
you that he was flying cocaine directly into Mena, but
you didn't believe him at the time. After I told you
what I saw, you said, "Maybe he did." That incident
was well documented.
****
Excerpt from:
From: true...@worldnet.att.net (Russell Welch)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
Subject: Unravelled Response 2a
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:17:08 GMT
ANSWER. Okay, one of the Senecas (and I don't
remember which one) landed, supposedly was in trouble,
couldn't land where they were going to land, so they
landed in Mena. It sat in the hangar for a day or a day
and a half, with cocaine, which was cocaine this trip. And
Freddie (Hampton), of course, was real nervous. Seal calls
up Freddie and tells him he wants it delivered, for Freddie
to do it himself. So, Freddie loads it in this one ton
truck in tool boxes that are built in on it, in the side.
Makes this 24-hour trip to Baton Rouge and he goes by way
of Fort Smith and across from the interstate down, I don't
know the route, I knew the route at one time. And went to
Baton Rouge and delivered it to Seal, or, you know, his
operation. And, at that point, I just figured they set
him up so he couldn't get out.
Larry-Jennie wrote:
> > Why are you and Bottoms working so hard to get the cocaine out of
> > Arkansas?
John Q. Public wrote:
> Because it was in Louisiana.
Granted, Seal brought substantial amounts of cocaine into
Louisiana. But to claim Seal did not smuggle into Arkansas
is absurd.
Included besides Arkansas law enforcement investigators Russell
Welch and Terry Capehart are Charles Black, Polk County (Mena)
prosecutor, who asked for assistance from Governor Clinton to
help prosecute drug running and money laundering in his district.
Gov. Clinton promised $25,000, but never delivered.
Joseph Hardegree, Prosecutor of Polk County, tried to investigate
and prosecute Barry Seal and his associates. He was prevented
from doing so by the U.S. Attorney's office in Fort Smith, as well
as other federal agencies. Hardegree believed this in part was due
to Seal's ties to the National Security Council of the Reagan White
House.
Larry-Jennie wrote:
> > The evidence is heavily against you.
John Q. Public wrote:
> Why continue your disinformation campaign?
The disinformation does not come from me.
I post the truth the best I know it. I post my sources.
When are you going to start?
Larry
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Wayne Mann
cm...@srv.net (Charles Mott) wrote:
>In article <33555D...@alink.net>, rlgl...@alink.net wrote:
>
>> John Q. Public wrote:
>> >
>> > Larry-Jennie wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > John Q. Public wrote:
>> > > >Almost all of Bottoms' claims about Seal have been corroborated by
>> > > >Welch's and Duncan's separate investigations.
>> > >
>> > > PURE UNADULTERATED BULLSHIT.
>> >
>> > "Barry Seal was nothing but a cocaine mule for a group of
>> > sleazy cocaine thugs. There was never any evidence that
>> > Seal was running guns, that I'm aware....Barry Seal wasn't
>> > running guns or working for the CIA." -- Russell Welch, 3/16/97
>>
>> How, exactly, would he know this? Who told him? Under oath?
>>
>> >
>> > "If Barry had been running guns out of the Mena Airport in
>> > 1983, 1984, or 1985, I would have caught him." -- Russell Welch, 3/16/97
>>
>> No serious investigator could say this. Was he there 24 hours a day,
>> seven days a week? Get real.
>>
>> You demand a very high standard for evidence from others, don't exactly
>> apply the same critical facility to points which support the "no CIA/no
>> cocaine at Mena" hypothesis.
>>
>> I am astonished at this entire thread. It is not illuminating anything,
>> as you must know. It is obscuring the real facts of the case, some of
>> which have been testified to by several completely independent people.
>>
>> The CIA was at Mena. Seal was at Mena. Clinton was at Mena. Guns and
>> Drugs were at Mena. Money was at Mena.
>
> I don't think that all these things have to be linked in a
> grand, master conspiracy (like a Robert Ludlum novel). Mena
> was far from the public eye and had some FBOs and skilled
> aircraft mechanics who, apparently, didn't shy away from
> sub rosa activities.
>
> For various reasons -- geography, cost, a tradition of
> keeping quiet, and a talented labor pool -- Mena became a
> center for a certain type of commerce. Like other centers
> of commerce, business was generated by many individuals,
> none of whom would really consider themselves obedient
> pawns in a master conspiracy.
>
> It seems that JQ has looked into the whole subject of Mena
> quite carefully, and I think his opinions have some merit.
> Also, he is quoting Russell Welch, whose one posting I
> observed on this group seemed comprehensive, clearly written
> and consistent with common sense.
>
>>
>> Get serious about the list and facts, but stop being tendencious.
>>
>> Lew
In my opinion John is 100% correct. I tried to suggest
the same opinion as he now holds a couple years ago, and NO
one would even listen. However I am glad that people are
finally recognizing that Mena was NOT any big government
conspiracy but a lot of little people taking advantage of
the circumstances and playing loose with the law for
personal profit. I do NOT think the government had anything
to do with drugs. I do think it is probable that Lassiter
did and probable Bill Clinton new about it. IMO Reed at
best took a button and sewed a vest on it.
As far as Larry is concerned, he has another agenda and
is NOT interested in facts and truth. He is ONLY interested
in trashing Reagan, Bush and the CIA, CIA, CIA. I KILL
FILED him a long time ago as a complete waste of time. ALl
he has done for years here is post old newspaper articles
that are as old as 15 years. He just seems to think that
volume make up for facts. He continually posts articles he
KNOWS are untrue. KILL FILE him.
j...@globaldialog.com
> > > >slightly possible exception of one load.
>
> Larry-Jennie wrote:
> > > Welch most certainly does say Seal imported cocaine into Arkansas,
> > > along with Mena area law enforcement investigators Terry Capehart,
> > > Charles Black and Joseph Hardegree.
>
> John Q. Public wrote:
> > One load. Maybe.
>
> JQP, how do you turn TWO WELL DOCUMENTED loads into "one maybe?"
Because it is disingenuous to state that there are TWO WELL
DOCUMENTED loads, Larry.
>
> Excerpt from:
> Subject: Unravelled Response
> From: true...@worldnet.att.net (Russell Welch)
> Date: 1997/03/12
> Message-Id: <3326fee2...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
> Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
>
> You told me that past the middle of 1983, you
> began slipping away from Seal's drug activity and didn't
> know everything that he was doing. After I told you about
> watching Seal and Billy Earle, Jr., fly into Rich Mountain
> Aviation, on the night of December 13, 1983, preparing
> for a smuggling trip, you told me that Seal had told
> you that he was flying cocaine directly into Mena, but
> you didn't believe him at the time. After I told you
> what I saw, you said, "Maybe he did." That incident
> was well documented.
And also well documented in *real time* is the ensuing discussion,
which you do not repost here, after which it is far less than clear
that the Earle trip was successful, due to mechanical breakdown,
an uncertainty that was acknowledged by Welch, just as Bottoms
allowed the possibility (however slim) of its success.
In fact, the entire sets of conversations between the two men
lurched and strained towards resolution, which you nevertheless
like to mischaracterize (via selective posting) as Welch
disagreeing with Bottoms. That is not the overall sense of these
remarkable exchanges.
>
> ****
>
> Excerpt from:
> From: true...@worldnet.att.net (Russell Welch)
> Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
> Subject: Unravelled Response 2a
> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:17:08 GMT
>
> ANSWER. Okay, one of the Senecas (and I don't
> remember which one) landed, supposedly was in trouble,
> couldn't land where they were going to land, so they
> landed in Mena. It sat in the hangar for a day or a day
> and a half, with cocaine, which was cocaine this trip. And
> Freddie (Hampton), of course, was real nervous. Seal calls
> up Freddie and tells him he wants it delivered, for Freddie
> to do it himself. So, Freddie loads it in this one ton
> truck in tool boxes that are built in on it, in the side.
> Makes this 24-hour trip to Baton Rouge and he goes by way
> of Fort Smith and across from the interstate down, I don't
> know the route, I knew the route at one time. And went to
> Baton Rouge and delivered it to Seal, or, you know, his
> operation. And, at that point, I just figured they set
> him up so he couldn't get out.
Billy Beck has already taken you to task for this one,
which, even if it were true, points the cocaine delivery
at Louisiana, *not* Arkansas.
So, Larry, we have *maybe one* (but probably none, although
it wasn't for lack of trying) load going into Arkansas.
>
> Larry-Jennie wrote:
> > > Why are you and Bottoms working so hard to get the cocaine out of
> > > Arkansas?
>
> John Q. Public wrote:
> > Because it was in Louisiana.
>
> Granted, Seal brought substantial amounts of cocaine into
> Louisiana. But to claim Seal did not smuggle into Arkansas
> is absurd.
>
What is absurd, Larry, is your clawing and scratching to hang
onto what looks like a myth, a myth that serves no one well
except for the people you say you want to nail. I have been
waiting for someone, anyone bearing evidence, to kick my ass
all over usenet. I don't have an ax to grind, except that
I'm sick of reading about Barry Seal being responsible
for everything when the greater probability is that he has
been used as a conveniently dead scapegoat for a decade,
a probability that is alarming to me. And my motivation has
nothing whatsoever to do with Seal's reputation per se, his
family's feelings, etc. There has been no such evidence
forthcoming, not out of the 2000 pages of Barry Seal personal
documents, not out of the 28 boxes of papers seized by the
IRS (are they the same?), not from Terry Reed, or L. D.
Brown, or any Seal investigators.
Again: For the sake of argument, assume that *two* loads
were imported. Up against the $3B-$5B figures, and the
allegedly key role of Barry Seal in Arkansas money laundering,
massive Arkansas cocaine smuggling, even in the deaths of Ives
and Henry, *so what*?
It's time to hop along.
j...@globaldialog.com
Lew Glendenning wrote:
>
> j...@globaldialog.com wrote:
> > > Seal's voice came on the radio first. ''You got a visual on us yet,
> > > Terry?
> >
> > from the first (private) email from Russell Welch to Billy Bottoms:
> >
> > From: "Russell F. Welch" <rwe...@CSWNET.COM>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 1996 9:51 PM
> > To: bbot...@rouge.net
> > Subject: B. Seal
> >
> > <big snip>
> >
> > "You're right, Terry Reed is a lier. He's never met Barry Seal. In my
> > opinion, Reed has done more to create confusion about Mena than
> > anybody else...."
>
> So, why did LDBrown say that he was sent to Mexico to kill Terry Reed?
> Under oath?
How do we know that that is precisely what he testified?
>
> Reed's book was published in 1994. LDBrown's revelations were probably
> 1996, both about events 10 years previous, or thereabouts. Both have
> validation of others publishing independently.
>
> You quote Russel Welch as saying several things I don't think a careful
> investigator would say, and this is another. How can he prove such a
> thing?
>
> There are too many independently-confirmed items of information to
> conclude other than North/CIA/Seal/Guns/Drugs/Money/Mena as a package,
> and probably Clinton/Lassiter in the same package.
I disagree with your statement. There are too many elements
subsumed within it that have not been corroborated. That is what
this six month long Seal discussion has revealed). In fact,
the grand linkage itself has been used to give the uncorroborated
elements an aroma of validity, IMO.
>
> We don't have a good fix on how much $, nor details of distribution of
> cocaine after it reached Arkansas.
We don't have any indication that more than one load (if that) was
brought in to Arkansas by Barry Seal.
>
> But, we have far more evidence than is sufficient to begin a real
> criminal investigation,
The problem is that the "evidence" that has been sold to us
is not there. The evidence that is (or was) there has had
a decade to dissipate. Morris keeps dropping hints about the mob,
but no one has investigated. Lots of money flowed through ADFA,
but it's off the radar screen (because we've been told that
it was Barry Seal's cocaine money?). Or how about those accounts
at Lasater and Company (again, we've been told that it was
Barry Seal's cocaine money)? Even now that the Riady connection
has garnered attention, one of the first responses was to
look for the Barry Seal connection to Lippo. Barry Seal
explains everything, Lew, except that the explanations are at
least mostly wrong.
Do you see where this is going, Lew?
Wayne Mann
j...@globaldialog.com wrote:
>Larry-Jennie wrote:
>>
>
>>
>>
>> John Q. Public wrote:
>> >Bottoms says that Seal didn't import drugs into Arkansas, with the
>> >slightly possible exception of one load.
>>
>> Welch most certainly does say Seal imported cocaine into Arkansas,
>> along with Mena area law enforcement investigators Terry Capehart,
>> Charles Black and Joseph Hardegree.
>
>One load. Maybe.
>
>
>>
>> Why are you and Bottoms working so hard to get the cocaine out of
>> Arkansas?
>
>Because it was in Louisiana.
>
>>
>> The evidence is heavily against you.
>
>Why continue your disinformation campaign?
Larry, PLEASE take your obsession someplace else,
anyplace! You are one sick puppy.
lar...@interaccess.com
In article <335A54...@globaldialog.com>,
Billy Bottoms wrote:
> We never communicated on VHF as there is no such thing as a
> discreet freguency in the VHF frequency band designated for
> air to air communication. We had special UHF encrypted radios
> outside scanner ranges which we used for discreet communication.
> We had sixteen or so of these radios. The frequency they transmitted
> on as I said were outside the band which could be picked up by
> scanners. These radios were very expensive and sophisticated.
Billy,
More important than telling us that Reed has it wrong, please
tell us what is correct.
How did you exit and enter American airspace, as well as
airdrop cocaine, without the FAA and international air
traffic control knowing about your flights?
Thanks,
Larry-Jennie
Wayne Mann wrote:
> In my opinion John is 100% correct. I tried to suggest
> the same opinion as he now holds a couple years ago, and NO
> one would even listen. However I am glad that people are
> finally recognizing that Mena was NOT any big government
> conspiracy but a lot of little people taking advantage of
> the circumstances and playing loose with the law for
> personal profit. I do NOT think the government had anything
> to do with drugs. I do think it is probable that Lassiter
> did and probable Bill Clinton new about it. IMO Reed at
> best took a button and sewed a vest on it.
If the government had nothing to do with drugs at Mena, why
is it "probable that (Dan Lasater) did and probable Clinton
knew about it?"
If Clinton knew about the drugs while he was governor, why has he
yet to bring the Mena traffickers to justice? He is President,
after all. You would think he would want to clean up the drug
trafficking in his state, which he blamed on federal authorities.
Polk (Mena) County law enforcement asked for his help, he promised
some, then did nothing.
Why did Dan Lasater swear under oath before the Senate Whitewater
Committee that he visited Governor Clinton "maybe twice," when several
Arkansas state troopers testified that Lasater and Clinton met
several times a week? Why did the Senate Whitewater Committee allow
the contradiction to go unchallenged?
When will Ken Starr report on the tens of millions of dollars of trades
documented to have been churned through Dennis Patrick's Lasater & Co.
account, done without Patrick's knowledge or permission? The churning
stopped the month Barry Seal was assassinated.
lar...@interaccess.com
In article <335A43...@globaldialog.com>,
j...@globaldialog.com wrote:
> > > >> lar...@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:
> > Excerpt from:
> > Compromised
> > by Terry Reed & John Cummings(C)1994
> > S. P. I. Books
> > pps 134-136
> > -----
>
> > Seal's voice came on the radio first. ''You got a visual on us yet,
> > Terry?
John Q. Public wrote:
> from the first (private) email from Russell Welch to Billy Bottoms:
>
> From: "Russell F. Welch" <rwe...@CSWNET.COM>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 1996 9:51 PM
> To: bbot...@rouge.net
> Subject: B. Seal
>
> <big snip>
>
> "You're right, Terry Reed is a lier. He's never met Barry Seal. In my
> opinion, Reed has done more to create confusion about Mena than
> anybody else...."
Russell Welch responded to my request for verification that
"Terry Reed knew nothing about Mena in 1989. After talking
to Gene Wheaton (whom I met in 1987), Jack Blum (who was
working for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, at the
time), gaining information to my files through various sources,
and talking to Bill Duncan, Reed was able to weave Barry Seal
into his story. The problem is that Reed didn't know enough
to get it right. As a result, Reed has lead so many people
in the wrong direction that I doubt if the true story will
ever get out, now.
"The true story is every bit as sinister as that depicted by
Reed, but it's not Reed's story. Reed went around the country
interviewing witnesses that were provided to him in good faith.
Then he told the stories given to him by the witnesses as
though it were his own story, and used the witnesses as his
corroboration. He has burned important witnesses who will
never come forward again."
So it turns out Reed was lying his ass off while telling the truth.
j...@globaldialog.com
lar...@interaccess.com wrote:
>
> In article <335A43...@globaldialog.com>,
> j...@globaldialog.com wrote:
>
> > > > >> lar...@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:
>
> > > Excerpt from:
> > > Compromised
> > > by Terry Reed & John Cummings(C)1994
> > > S. P. I. Books
> > > pps 134-136
> > > -----
> >
> > > Seal's voice came on the radio first. ''You got a visual on us yet,
> > > Terry?
>
Yeah, except we don't know *what* truth. Which of
Reed's allegations do you want to bet on, now?
Barry Seal dropping bags of money on Seth Ward's
ranch? And how about the bullshit description you
posted a couple of days ago, about flying in formation
with Seal? Reed couldn't have done a better disinformation
job.
Larry, I hope you appreciate the enormous impact
this *ought* to have. And I hope it makes you as
angry as it's made me, and somewhat empathetic to
Billy Bottoms' mission.
j...@globaldialog.com
<Billy Bottoms is temporarily unable to post to usenet.
I am forwarding the following for Mr. Bottoms. It is
unedited except where noted.>
On Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:02:17 -0600 lar...@interaccess.com writes:
>
>[This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News]
>
>In article <335A54...@globaldialog.com>,
> j...@globaldialog.com wrote:
>Billy Bottoms wrote:
>> We never communicated on VHF as there is no such thing as a
>> discreet freguency in the VHF frequency band designated for
>> air to air communication. We had special UHF encrypted radios
>> outside scanner ranges which we used for discreet communication.
>> We had sixteen or so of these radios. The frequency they
>transmitted
>> on as I said were outside the band which could be picked up by
>> scanners. These radios were very expensive and sophisticated.
>
>
>
>Billy,
>
>More important than telling us that Reed has it wrong, please
>tell us what is correct.
>
>How did you exit and enter American airspace, as well as
>airdrop cocaine, without the FAA and international air
>traffic control knowing about your flights?
>
>Thanks,
>Larry
>
<personal message to Larry snipped>
As a courtesy, I will explain since this is an easy one. One did not
have to go to any extremes in the early 80's to evade radar. Radar
is line of sight. There was ground based aircraft radar at New Orleans
and several other coastal cities. New Orleans was the one I had to
evade. 60 miles either side ot the station, the radar cannot detect an
aircraft at or below 1000'. I flew much lower. The radar baloons in
the gulf didn't work. It was a hoax to a degree or a partial bluff.
Coast Guard ships would monitor the pass between Cuba and Mexico, but
I went around it by going inland at the Belize Mexican border and
exiting between Cancun and Merida on my return. Reverse that
on the way down. No great mystery nor difficult feat. It was described
that we used the oil rigs and blended with the helicopter traffic in the
gulf to evade radar, but this was not necessary and was so described
more for the dramatic effect. Airborne radar platforms were not used
when we were at our peak. Even that was evadable for a light aircraft
on the deck as it was lost in sea clutter.
j...@globaldialog.com
Lew Glendenning wrote:
>
>
> LDBrown seems like a pretty good witness to me.
>
> He confirms some of the things Terry Reed says, was sent to kill Terry
> Reed by people who presented themselves as CIA.
I don't believe this.
j...@globaldialog.com
Wayne Mann wrote:
>
> cm...@srv.net (Charles Mott) wrote:
>
> >In article <33555D...@alink.net>, rlgl...@alink.net wrote:
> >
> >> John Q. Public wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Larry-Jennie wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > John Q. Public wrote:
> In my opinion John is 100% correct. I tried to suggest
> the same opinion as he now holds a couple years ago, and NO
> one would even listen. However I am glad that people are
> finally recognizing that Mena was NOT any big government
> conspiracy but a lot of little people taking advantage of
> the circumstances and playing loose with the law for
> personal profit. I do NOT think the government had anything
> to do with drugs.
I am not prepared to agree with this statement.
j...@globaldialog.com
Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> Wayne Mann wrote:
> > In my opinion John is 100% correct. I tried to suggest
> > the same opinion as he now holds a couple years ago, and NO
> > one would even listen. However I am glad that people are
> > finally recognizing that Mena was NOT any big government
> > conspiracy but a lot of little people taking advantage of
> > the circumstances and playing loose with the law for
> > personal profit. I do NOT think the government had anything
> > to do with drugs. I do think it is probable that Lassiter
> > did and probable Bill Clinton new about it. IMO Reed at
> > best took a button and sewed a vest on it.
>
> If the government had nothing to do with drugs at Mena, why
> is it "probable that (Dan Lasater) did and probable Clinton
> knew about it?"
>
> If Clinton knew about the drugs while he was governor, why has he
> yet to bring the Mena traffickers to justice? He is President,
> after all. You would think he would want to clean up the drug
> trafficking in his state, which he blamed on federal authorities.
> Polk (Mena) County law enforcement asked for his help, he promised
> some, then did nothing.
>
> Why did Dan Lasater swear under oath before the Senate Whitewater
> Committee that he visited Governor Clinton "maybe twice," when several
> Arkansas state troopers testified that Lasater and Clinton met
> several times a week? Why did the Senate Whitewater Committee allow
> the contradiction to go unchallenged?
>
> When will Ken Starr report on the tens of millions of dollars of trades
> documented to have been churned through Dennis Patrick's Lasater & Co.
> account, done without Patrick's knowledge or permission?
Documentation? (And please don't just repost Crudele's articles).
> The churning
> stopped the month Barry Seal was assassinated.
More probable misdirection from the Pink Bunny, who was
going OK till that "Barry Seal" thing popped out (again!).
At least he's no linger claiming that it was "the day"
that Seal was killed.
Maybe the Pink Bunny suffers from Tourette's.
j...@globaldialog.com
lar...@interaccess.com wrote:
>
> Billy,
>
> More important than telling us that Reed has it wrong, please
> tell us what is correct.
>
> How did you exit and enter American airspace, as well as
> airdrop cocaine, without the FAA and international air
> traffic control knowing about your flights?
>
He's already posted about that, I believe. Go back and read
some of his posts, from the period when you and others were
saying that nothing that he posted could possibly be true.
They had some very sophisticated equipment, and took extreme
precautions.
Try to understand: Seal was a very successful smuggler.
In a nutshell, it explains itself. This is not to say
that no USG agency is complicit, whether intentionally
or unintentionally, in any drug trafficking; but even Tyrrell
has stated his beliefs that the CIA was uninvolved in Seal's
cocaine importation.