Help Stop A Convicted Murderer....
Angry White Male
Help Stop A Convicted Murderer....
Jennifer Koon, was an 18-year old college student in the Rochester, NY area,
when she was abducted and murdered in 1993. Her murderer, Willis Knight, was
found guilty of kidnapping, murder, and rape and was sentenced to 37 ½ years
to life in prison. Willis Knight is presently attempting to change his name
to Rasool Khadafi. David and Suzanne Koon feel that since he committed these
heinous crimes against their daughter as Willis Knight, he should continue
to live as Willis Knight for the duration of his prison sentence.
David and Suzanne wish to express their appreciation to all those who sign
this petition to try and prevent Willis Knight from changing his name, which
is currently scheduled to occur on March 1, 2002. Prior to that date, this
petition will be submitted to judicial officials overseeing Knight's name
change request in an attempt to block that request.
Kenneth C.
seems a bit petty, don't you think?
--
"A good player is always lucky"
Capablanca
-----------------------
Kenneth C.
"Angry White Male" <angry_wh...@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
news:vq738.107720$bZ5.24...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
KD
"Kenneth C." <kenneth-ec@(REMOVE)edoramail.com> wrote in message
> I'm not at all familiar with this case, but at first sight this petition
> seems a bit petty, don't you think?
Petty? How so?
-KD
Kenneth C.
relatively unimportant (not worth the trouble of getting up a petition Etc.)
--
"A good player is always lucky"
Capablanca
-----------------------
Kenneth C.
"KD" <kmdk...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:44e38.55634$v34.2232901700@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
KD
> I mean that it seems to me that whether his name gets changed or not seems
> relatively unimportant (not worth the trouble of getting up a petition
Etc.)
I imagine that's because you are not related to the victim. Or, perhaps,
you have never had a close relative become the murder victim?
Neither have I, but I can easily understand the motivation of the parents.
-KD
Kenneth C.
> you have never had a close relative become the murder victim?
You are probably right. I could imagine that a relative or someone closely
involved would not see it as objectively as others might.
--
"A good player is always lucky"
Capablanca
-----------------------
Kenneth C.
"KD" <kmdk...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vpf38.55655$Tm5.2238041158@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Kenneth C." <kenneth-ec@(REMOVE)edoramail.com> wrote in message
> news:DMe38.108329$bZ5.24...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> > I mean that it seems to me that whether his name gets changed or not
seems
> > relatively unimportant (not worth the trouble of getting up a petition
> Etc.)
>
>
Dennis K Boyd
years.
I remember that case, that scumbag Knight, his half brother or whatever, and
a few others repeatedly raped, then murdered Jennifer Koon in a back alley
on the NE side of the city. Nice people.
Isn't he in prison in Jefferson County?.
BTW, I signed the petition.
Dennis K. Boyd
Justice Has Been Served
"Angry White Male" <angry_wh...@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
news:vq738.107720$bZ5.24...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
Tom Hand
"Dennis K Boyd" <mopa...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:u4r4ad4...@corp.supernews.com...
> David Koon is a state legislator, too. Was elected in the last couple of
> years.
>
> I remember that case, that scumbag Knight, his half brother or whatever,
and
> a few others repeatedly raped, then murdered Jennifer Koon in a back alley
> on the NE side of the city. Nice people.
>
> Isn't he in prison in Jefferson County?.
>
> BTW, I signed the petition.
>
> Dennis K. Boyd
>
> Justice Has Been Served
>
My daughter who is now living in California had it sent to her by a New York
friend. She signed it and forwarded it to me a couple of days ago. It is
clearly getting a wide circulation.
David Lentz
Dennis K Boyd wrote:
>
> David Koon is a state legislator, too. Was elected in the last couple of
> years.
>
> I remember that case, that scumbag Knight, his half brother or whatever, and
> a few others repeatedly raped, then murdered Jennifer Koon in a back alley
> on the NE side of the city. Nice people.
It remains a mystery how a scum bag like David Koon could father
a daughter like Jennifer. Willis Knight was convicted, in part
at least, by Koon's teeth marks on his Johnson. Pretty
convincing evidence. Pretty spunky Lady.
David
--
qyra...@ebpurfgre.ee.pbz
JmG
<angry_wh...@eudoramail.com> wrote:
>|David and Suzanne wish to express their appreciation to all those who sign
>|this petition to try and prevent Willis Knight from changing his name, which
>|is currently scheduled to occur on March 1, 2002. Prior to that date, this
>|petition will be submitted to judicial officials overseeing Knight's name
>|change request in an attempt to block that request.
If the guy wants to change his name, why not? I read the documents pertaining
to his conviction and they're apparently pretty clear cut. When he gets out of
prison do you think he'll use his changed name to try to lead a normal life
again? If that is his goal, I wish him luck. I'm not a believer in forever
condemning people.
J
--
If it barks, shoot it. [www.bongoboy.com]
KD
"JmG" <jmg...@bestweb.net> wrote in message
> again? If that is his goal, I wish him luck. I'm not a believer in forever
> condemning people.
Can we assume then that you'll sponsor this guy when he gets out of prison?
Maybe you can rent him a room and give him a job? Do you happen to have a
pretty young daughter or wife or sister you might want to throw into the
mix, or perhaps your elderly mother -- perhaps one of them can help
rehabilitate the guy?
Some types of scum never change. I wouldn't give someone guilty of such a
heinous crime the benefit of the doubt on your life. Especially if he
decides to claim that he has found Jesus and turned his life around.
-KD
Tom Hand
No one guilty of a crime like that deserves a second chance. The only just
punishment would be for him to dangle at the end of a rope.
Kenneth C.
> out and people like that shouldnt be able to hide.
Actually, once he gets out, that should be the end of it. (unless the no
change name thing is a part of his sentence, which of course it isn't.)
--
"A good player is always lucky"
Capablanca
-----------------------
Kenneth C.
"Little Lisa" <la...@budweiser.com> wrote in message
news:v3er4u81aiidg0k3q...@4ax.com...
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> Fine. Then you can forgive the guy. But why should he be allowed to
> change his name. When someone pulls shit like that, keeping the name
> they have should be part of the punishment. So whereever he goes in
> life, he has to show that name. >
> Lisa
>
Angry Male
The reason why I posted this petition is because I know the victim's
mother personally from working with her several years ago. Apparently
there are those of you who didn't hear excerpts of the 911 tape that
was made when she managed to call 911 on her cell phone during the
ordeal and begging for her life. The local news stations took great
pleasure in broadcasting it repeatedly. It was hard for me to stomach
- and I consider myself to have a thick skin.
This was a brutal and senseless crime - absolutely horrendous.
Here's an article from the Associated Press from 1995 when Willis
Knight was on trial:
ROCHESTER, N.Y. (AP) -- A college student abducted in a strip mall
repeatedly cried ``Help me!'' into her car telephone moments before
she was shot to death.
Jennifer Koon's desperate 911 call was played in court Wednesday
at the trial of Willis Knight, a convicted armed robber charged
with kidnapping, raping and killing Koon on Nov. 13, 1993.
A 911 operator said the caller ``kept saying `please!'; she kept
saying she was hurt; she kept saying `Help me!'''
The barely audible recording also picked up sounds of shuffling,
gears grinding and music, operator Kimberly Bell testified on the
fourth day of the trial.
Investigators have said Koon was recorded begging to be taken to
a hospital before a man asked, ``Why don't you just do her?'' and
the sounds of gunshots were heard. But those sounds were not heard
on the recording played in court.
Prosecutors did not offer an explanation for the missing voice,
nor have they said why there are no other suspects.
The 18-year-old sophomore at St. John Fisher College was last
seen buying bagels and drawing cash from an automatic teller
machine in Pittsford, a predominantly white, middle-class suburb.
Two hours later, she was found dead in her mother's car in an
alley in a rundown section of Rochester. The cellular phone was
locked on 911 and the bagels she bought were nearby. Koon was shot
twice in the head and once in the back.
Knight, 31, was arrested six months later. In 1985, he was
sentenced to 2 1/2-to-7 1/2 years in prison for robbing $49,000 in
diamond rings from a jewelry store.
The apparent randomness of the slaying startled people in this
city of 230,000 in western New York. Rochester recorded 67 killings
last year, close to an all-time high, but homicide rarely touches
its suburbs.
On Monday, witness Robert Geer said he saw Knight driving the
car, grabbing Koon by the hair and smashing her face through the
car window.
Geer said he got close enough to see ``the color of her eyes and
the fear in her face.''
"KD" <kmdk...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<mAh38.55703$E8.224...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com>...
JmG
wrote:
>|Sheesh... some of you guys are heartless.
Perhaps. And also perhaps some of us believe in redemption.
J
KD
I was going to ask about the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, but I'll let it
go.....
-KD
JmG
>|> Perhaps. And also perhaps some of us believe in redemption.
>|
>|I was going to ask about the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, but I'll let it
>|go.....
Do you consider yourself a Christian?
J
Tom Hand
I wouldn't use Christianity as a shining example of morality or ethics. All
the world's great religions, but Christianity in particular, are responsible
for most of the evil acts of inhumanity that have occured in the world in
the last 2000 years. There is nothing good about religion, only evil.
Dave Hitt
Parents can not be expected to act rationally in such a situation, but
that doesn't mean we have to be part of their therapy.
I never heard of him before - and probably never would have, if it
were not for the parents broadcasting his name. They'd do better to
keep quiet and let him be forgotten - there is nothing left for him
but fame.
This is just dopey.
----
An easy, free way to zap telemarketers - and tips to help torture them
http://www.davehitt.com/jan02/tmmmda.html
Dave Hitt
Yeah, a rapist murder deserves to have as many chances as it takes.
He'll most likely rape and murder some more, but hell, we must respect
him as a fine human being.
Trudi Marrapodi
<troy...@altavista.com> wrote:
That's baloney. I'm a Christian...but I'll tell you this, I don't believe
it's my place to forgive the man who killed Jennifer Koon. The only person
who has a right to do that is Koon herself. She was the one offended
against, so if her spirit forgives him, fine. But it is not my place, and
I don't have an obligation, to forgive him for what he did to her.
I do remember when she was killed, because I was living in Rochester at
the time.
--
Trudi
"I am never turning professional. I have always been an amateur, and I want to stay one."
--Sonja Henie, press conference, pre-1936 Olympics
Tom Hand
"E-Mail Stuff here" <E-Mail-...@domane.ABC> wrote in message
news:h6ru4u4rki1vdqnrh...@4ax.com...
> never hurt anyone. But like the killer that is being reffered to in
> this thread, murder is the most extreme act. The murderer belongs in
> prison for the rest of his natural life. Murder, like most other
> things, just gets easier the second time around.
>
I don't think even just a little bit of Christianity is benevolent. It is a
religion steeped in hate, chauvinism and prejudice, as are all other one,
all-powerful god religions. Their belief in an all-powerful supreme being
lets them shirk personal responsibility for their own actions - the, "God
willed it," mentality. The Romans were right in seeing them as a threat to
humanity and throwing them to the lions - it's too bad they didn't get all
of them.
Kenneth C.
a
religion steeped in hate, chauvinism and prejudice, as are all other one,
> all-powerful god religions. Their belief in an all-powerful supreme being
lets them shirk personal responsibility for their own actions - the, "God
> willed it," mentality. The Romans were right in seeing them as a threat
to
all
> of them
Don't you think that you've gotten a little bit off topic with this BS? Take
it to the religion newsgroup.
"A good player is always lucky"
Capablanca
-----------------------
Kenneth C.
"Tom Hand" <troy...@altavista.com> wrote in message
news:zFJ38.625$17.4...@newsfeed1.thebiz.net...
> .
>
>
Rob G.
consider myself a Christian without following the official tenets of
organized Christianity. Religion can be a good thing for many people. It can
help them through times of trouble and grief. Personal beliefs are something
internal, and reflect that person's views on the world. Folks who act on
personal beliefs tend toward forgiveness and kindness. It is those who
espouse the views of organized religion who cause problems. Take, as an
example, abortion protesters. Those who become violent are acting on the
dictates of the official church. Those, like me, who hold personal beliefs,
may or may not agree with abortion, but they tend to remain quiet and don't
go making a scene whenever a camera is around. Organized religion tends
toward corruption, mainly because it is run by human beings who are fallible
and imperfect.
--
Rob G.
Tom Hand
> I don't think even just a little bit of Christianity is benevolent. It is
> a
> religion steeped in hate, chauvinism and prejudice, as are all other one,
> > all-powerful god religions. Their belief in an all-powerful supreme
being
> lets them shirk personal responsibility for their own actions - the, "God
> > willed it," mentality. The Romans were right in seeing them as a threat
> to
> -- humanity and throwing them to the lions - it's too bad they didn't get
> all
> > of them
>
> Don't you think that you've gotten a little bit off topic with this BS?
Take
> it to the religion newsgroup.
Follow the thread back and you will find that I'm not the one who brought up
Christianity. But if someone brings it up as some sort of good cause I am
certainly going to point out how evil it really is, and how much grief it
has given to the human race over the millenniums. Virtually all the sorrows
of western civilization for the last 2000 years can be laid at
Christianity's doorstep.
Rob G.
Christianity.
Sorry, but I won't let such absurd hyperbole go unchallenged.
--
Rob G.
Tom Hand
"Rob G." <gd...@rochesterNOSPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
news:S7M38.63253$Sf1.14...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
For starters, almost every European war you can think of from the Crusades
to Bosnia was a religious war. Even ostensibly territorial wars such as WW
II had horrible effects that were created or magnified by religion, such as
the Vatican's tacit approval of Hitler's extermination of the Jews. "Praise
the Lord and pass the ammunition," has been the battle cry of Christianity
since its inception.
The colonization and subjugation of the undeveloped world by Europe was
accomplished as much by the church and its missionaries as by governments
and trading companies. The conquistadors and the church were a team in the
conquest of the Americas and the genocide of its people, just as they were
in routing out heretics and Jews during the inquisition, through torture and
murder.
In Europe itself the churches have virtually always sided with despots and
tyrants in subjugating and oppressing their own people.
Biblical platitudes have been used to justify every injustice and indignity
imaginable, from slavery in America to the ghetoization of the Jews in
Europe.
To this day little schoolgirls are attacked in Northern Ireland just for
walking to school, and adults are murdered for simply going to work, all in
the name of God. Christianity has a rotten track record. The world would
be a better place had it never existed.
Rob G.
surprise the Japanese, wouldn't it?) The War of 1812 was religious?
Interesting take you have on history there. I guess if you squint hard
enough, you can see religion in these wars. Or, if you push hard enough, you
can force religion into any of them.
Besides, as I said earlier, the Pope is a human being, and therefore
fallible. The official Catholic Church is the only group that claims he is
infallible. But, aside from that, I think the majority of Christianity would
be quite displeased with you for claiming that the Pope's actions reflect
badly on ALL of Christianity, as he only speaks for the Roman Catholic
Church. But, that doesn't help you with your theory that religion causes ALL
wars, does it?
> The colonization and subjugation of the undeveloped world by Europe was
> accomplished as much by the church and its missionaries as by governments
> and trading companies. The conquistadors and the church were a team in
the
> conquest of the Americas and the genocide of its people, just as they were
> in routing out heretics and Jews during the inquisition, through torture
and
> murder.
>
Ok, perhaps you have a point that colonization was fostered in part by
religion, but it was hardly as large a motivating factor as trade and
expanded territory. And once again, you fall back on the tactic of calling
the move for colonization subjugation. You've fallen prey to the
"Christopher Columbus was evil" mentality. Answer me this: Where would you
be if not for the colonization of America?
> In Europe itself the churches have virtually always sided with despots and
> tyrants in subjugating and oppressing their own people.
>
Oh really? The church didn't side with Henry VIII. Perhaps you could do some
real research and give us more information here, instead of additional
hyperbole.
> Biblical platitudes have been used to justify every injustice and
indignity
> imaginable, from slavery in America to the ghetoization of the Jews in
> Europe.
>
More hyperbole, but absolutely no substance. And you fail to mention that
those same "Biblical platitudes" were also used to condemn slavery in
America. But, you conveniently left that out since it doesn't fit with your
theory.
> To this day little schoolgirls are attacked in Northern Ireland just for
> walking to school, and adults are murdered for simply going to work, all
in
> the name of God. Christianity has a rotten track record. The world would
> be a better place had it never existed.
>
Of course. How much better for all of us if humanity had never had any sort
of religious guidance in helping decide right from wrong. You obviously have
something up your ass about Christianity. But, perhaps you should look at
the other world religions and observe the atrocities committed in their
name. We have had continuous war in Jerusalem without Christianity being
involved. But your target is only Christians. What was it that the Christian
Church ever did to you?
Please, step back from blanket statements and find some facts to support
your wild claims please. I fear you're far too emotionally distraught to
continue rationally, as you've shown no rationality yet in this thread.
--
Rob G.
Elaine Jackson
>Religion can be a good thing for many people. It can
>help them through times of trouble and grief.
Of course, for a parent, it's nowhere near as much help as NOT having your
daughter brutally raped and murdered, but I suppose it might be a drop in their
bucket of grief. If they are in fact religious after that event.
imho, you are perhaps conflating ethics, morality, and religion, but I agree
wholeheartedly that an internal monologue in which you tell yourself to behave
morally, to refrain from treating other people as disposable, etc., is a good
thing.
Elaine
Rob G.
news:20020124071705...@mb-fs.aol.com...
> Rob G. wrote:
> >Religion can be a good thing for many people. It can
> >help them through times of trouble and grief.
>
> Of course, for a parent, it's nowhere near as much help as NOT having
your
> daughter brutally raped and murdered, but I suppose it might be a drop in
their
> bucket of grief. If they are in fact religious after that event.
>
Believe it or not, some folks have even more faith after something like
this. It all comes down to whether or not they "blame God" for what has
happened. Many folks are quick to take credit for anything good that happens
to them, but blame God for anything bad that happens.
> imho, you are perhaps conflating ethics, morality, and religion, but I
agree
> wholeheartedly that an internal monologue in which you tell yourself to
behave
> morally, to refrain from treating other people as disposable, etc., is a
good
> thing.
>
Why do ethics, morality, and religion (faith) need to be mutually exclusive?
Any one of the three can guide the others.
--
Rob G.
KD
> fallible.
Wait, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't he supposed to have a hotline to
God?
-KD
KD
> Christianity.
Damn, you're a glutton for punishment, aren't you?
-KD
Rob G.
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 05:21:17 GMT, "Rob G."
> <gd...@rochesterNOSPAM.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > But, that doesn't help you with your theory that religion causes ALL
> >wars, does it?
>
> I certainly wouldnt say religion causes ALL wars, but it certainly had
> a big part of this terrorism war.
>
Ah, but Tom would have us believe it's all the fault of Christianity. And
yet the terrorists aren't Christian... Hmm...
> I think religion is fine, as long as those that believe in their
> religion, keep it to themselves and dont impose, or use it against any
> others.
>
Exactly! And that is one of the primary differences between organized
religion and personal religion. Organized religion calls its followers to do
just those things we all say shouldn't be done, that followers should go out
and try and win converts. I do not agree with that. If someone truly wishes
to believe, they will, whether or not someone comes preaching at their door.
--
Rob G.
Rob G.
of the Church, the Pope is the representative of God on Earth, and is
therefore infallible. It is assumed that the Pope prays and thinks on the
subject before releasing an official statement, and that God directs him in
those decisions.
I haven't bought into the infallibility argument for quite a long time.
After all, the Pope condemned Galileo as a heretic. If the Pope were truly
infallible, God would have told him that Galileo was right.
The Pope is a human being. Why should he be any less prone to failure or
personal prejudice than the rest of us?
--
Rob G.
Rob G.
monstrous role in our world. Instead he's tossed out more hyperbole and
revisionist history rather than fact. If he wishes to discuss fact, that's
fine. But, thus far he hasn't provided any.
--
Rob G.
Rob G.
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:43:53 GMT, "Rob G."
> <gd...@rochesterNOSPAM.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >You are confusing organized religion with personal religious beliefs. I
can
> >consider myself a Christian without following the official tenets of
> >organized Christianity.
>
> Can you? What I mean is, Im catholic. But I dont believe in
> everything the catholics do. I dont practice everything they do.
> Therefore, am I a *ture* Christian? Or was I just born and baptised
> that way.
>
That all depends on your beliefs. (Not to mention the fact that just because
you're not a "true" Catholic does not automatically mean you're not
Christian. Catholicism is a division of Christianity. There are many
non-Catholic Christian religions, such as Baptists, Lutherans,
Episcopalians, etc.) If you believe that Jesus was the son of God and came
to save sinners, then yes, you are a Christian. But, calling yourself a
Christian or a Catholic does not mean you must conform to all the ideals of
the organized religion. For example, I consider myself Catholic (but lately
I've begun to question all of that) but I do not believe all of the Catholic
Church's teachings, such as I do not believe the Pope is infallible, nor do
I truly believe Mary was "ever Virgin." (Too many references to Jesus'
brothers and sisters in the New Testament.) These are two of the primary
teachings of Catholicism.
Some friends and I compared it to tools and a toolbox. Your faith is your
tools. Your religion is your toolbox. You try to find the toolbox that best
holds your tools. They may not fit exactly, but that does not mean you
should throw out those tools and get new ones that do fit. Just as you
should not start believing things your religion tells you to just because
your beliefs do not fit with the religion's teachings. I question the
beliefs of those who blindly adhere to everything a particular religion
teaches.
--
Rob G.
Elaine Jackson
<troy...@altavista.com> writes:
> Christianity has a rotten track record. The world would
>be a better place had it never existed.
Since European history is in large part a record of the bizarre religious
justifications for the insane greed and ferocity of the people of that region
of the world... I must agree.
Ghandi was a clever man as well as being a secular saint. When asked what
he thought of the civilization of Europe, he reportedly replied: "I think it
would be a good idea."
Elaine Jackson
(Dave Hitt) writes:
>I never heard of him before - and probably never would have, if it
>were not for the parents broadcasting his name. They'd do better to
>keep quiet and let him be forgotten - there is nothing left for him but fame.
I think you mean "infamy", the negative side of fame. Her parents are
arranging for him to be known - to be infamous - for killing their daughter,
spending a little R&R time in jail, and then fraudulently trying to "get on
with his life" by disguising his identity. A brand-new life is precisely what
he should be denied. He did in fact murder another human being, and now he's
trying to weasel out of responsibility for his own actions. His new name, if
he manages to sneak one, is a mask intended to hide a murderer.
He needs to be remembered, and pointed out on the street, and quietly
ostracized by every person he meets. Both of his names should be given the
largest possible publicity now, so other women can protect themselves.
Of course he should have been executed, so that we could shake our heads
like the people who dismiss Jennifer Koons' life and death, and say about him,
in his turn: "well, too bad that his young life was cut short... but he's dead
now, nothing will bring him back, and we don't need to worry about it any more,
we just need to get on with our lives... so, what's on the tube?"
"If a shipwrecked man struggles to shore on a foreign land and, as he
crawls onto the beach, sees in the distance a gallows, he may breathe a sigh of
relief that he has reached a land where the value of human life is
appreciated."
-- Samuel Johnson (paraphrased)
Elaine Jackson
>On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:35:40 -0500, JmG <jmg...@bestweb.net> wrote:
>If the guy wants to change his name, why not?
I think I see the problem. You see this sub-human as just a regular guy whose
hobbies just happen to include rape and murder. The rest of us see him as a
clear and present danger within society, a hog in human form who acts out his
most brutal whims.
I wonder though. At what point did his life, his future and his
psychological comfort become so important to you? At what point did her life,
her future and her suffering become unimportant to you? At what point did you
decide that "oh, well, she's dead now, so forget the way she died, and the
reasons she died"?
Do you eat a sandwich and flip thru a magazine while you make heartless
pronouncements about the value or lack of value of murdered people? Or is it
just murdered women who aren't important?
>I read the documents
>pertaining to his conviction and they're apparently pretty clear cut. When he
gets out of
>prison do you think he'll use his changed name to try to lead a normal life
again?
Of course he will. He'll find a dullard willing to cohabit with him, or more
likely, a series of disposable girlfriends. He'll snivel in bars that Society
just doesn't know how to treat him well, because he was inconvenienced by going
to jail like a common criminal - just as if he'd murdered someone.
As for your reading 'the documents', how does that explain why you think
*your* opinion of this case should prevail over the wishes of the victim's
parents?
> If that is his goal, I wish him luck. I'm not a believer in forever
condemning people.
Well, you're not God and he's not going to live forever, so there's no
problem with his being condemned 'forever'. But he will live a great deal
longer than the young woman he brutalized. For his lifetime, he deserves what
he gets from the rest of society.
He's a murderer. He always will be the one who killed Jennifer Koons.
You still haven't volunteered to have him live in your neighborhood, in your
house, so you can introduce him to your mother and sisters.
Elaine
JmG
wrote:
>| I think I see the problem. You see this sub-human as just a regular guy whose
>|hobbies just happen to include rape and murder. The rest of us see him as a
That's a nice assumption on your part, but pretty damned wrong. I'm just not a
fan of condemning people forever, with no chance of redemption. People change.
J
KD
"Elaine Jackson" <cornu...@aol.comjunkblok> wrote in message
>
> psychological comfort become so important to you? At what point did her
life,
> her future and her suffering become unimportant to you?
Her suffering, while horrific, is nothing compared to what her parents are
enduring. While this may sound callous, compassionate people will
understand when I say that at least Jennifer's suffering is over -- it ended
with her death.
I have not been through anything like this, so I can only imagine. What I
imagine is that her parents wake up every day, and (if they are lucky),
their daughter is not the first thought that comes to mind - there might be
a brief respite when it is as if the tragedy never happened. However,
before long she will come to mind, and for another fleeting moment they will
be in that surreal state when they want to believe that it has all been a
very bad dream. When the reality finally hits, they will again get that
horrid feeling of sickness in their heart and in their gut. They then have
to endure another day of knowing that they are condemned to this fate for
the rest of their lives.
-KD
KD
not a
> fan of condemning people forever, with no chance of redemption. People
change.
Again, I encourage you to invite Jennifer's killer into your house and home
when and if he is released from prison -- maybe he can babysit your kids or
your grandkids. Maybe he can date your daughter or your sister. If they're
too young for him, how about hiring him as a companion caregiver for your
elderly mother or grandmother?
Have you been visiting him in prison? How about other rapists and
murderers? Come on -- put your money where your mouth is if you think these
folks really deserve a second chance and are worthy of being treated like
upstanding citizens.
The problem is that thinking like yours does not usually impact the (trying
to think of a word here that isn't too derogatory) "dreamers" like you.
Those who then suffer from the hands of these irredeemable psychopaths are
usually other innocent people -- people such as Jennifer and her parents --
who were just trying to live their lives.
Some people make minor "mistakes" in life, pay for them in prison and/or
through restitution, learn from their mistakes, and then go on with their
lives. On the other hand, some folks are trouble from the word go -- they
are just born without a conscience and will be a blight on society for their
entire lives. Our legal system has to figure out, best as it can, who these
folks are and protect society from them.
Quit dreaming and deal with this fact.
"Released rapists were 10.5 times more likely than non-rapists to be
rearrested for rape, and released murderers were about 5 times more likely
than other offenders to be rearrested for homicide. An estimated 6.6% of
released murderers were rearrested for homicide. [I don't know, but I'm
guessing that 6.6% of the general population is never arrested for or
suspected of homicide at any time in their lives.]
"Nearly 1 in 3 released violent offenders and 1 in 5 released property
offenders were arrested within 3 years for a violent crime following their
release from prison."
[Refer to the publication cited below for further cautionary statements
about the predictive value of arrests versus convictions.]
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/rpr83.pdf
-KD
Dave Hitt
>In article <3c54588a....@news3.newscene.com>, Boy....@Hate.spammers
>(Dave Hitt) writes:
>
>>I never heard of him before - and probably never would have, if it
>>were not for the parents broadcasting his name. They'd do better to
>>keep quiet and let him be forgotten - there is nothing left for him but fame.
>
>
> I think you mean "infamy", the negative side of fame.
To you and I there is a difference between fame and infamy. To a
criminal, there is not. In most cases, getting their name well known
is an achievement, something they're proud of.
> Her parents are
>arranging for him to be known - to be infamous - for killing their daughter,
And I'd guess he's just *delighted* with them. They've given him far
more attention than he'd have received otherwise.
>spending a little R&R time in jail, and then fraudulently trying to "get on
>with his life" by disguising his identity.
He's doing 37 years to life. That's not much of a life to get one
with. It's unlikely he'll ever see the outside of a prison.
>A brand-new life is precisely what
>he should be denied. He did in fact murder another human being, and now he's
>trying to weasel out of responsibility for his own actions. His new name, if
>he manages to sneak one, is a mask intended to hide a murderer.
> He needs to be remembered, and pointed out on the street, and quietly
>ostracized by every person he meets. Both of his names should be given the
>largest possible publicity now, so other women can protect themselves.
Since he's not going to be on the streets for at least 37 years,
everybody better have very good memories.
> Of course he should have been executed, so that we could shake our heads
>like the people who dismiss Jennifer Koons' life and death, and say about him,
>in his turn: "well, too bad that his young life was cut short... but he's dead
>now, nothing will bring him back, and we don't need to worry about it any more,
>we just need to get on with our lives... so, what's on the tube?"
Here we agree. We could find some satisfaction in removing a rabid
dog from society, and JmG could come in and preach that he really
wasn't all that bad and deserved a second (and third, and fourth)
chance.
> "If a shipwrecked man struggles to shore on a foreign land and, as he
>crawls onto the beach, sees in the distance a gallows, he may breathe a sigh of
>relief that he has reached a land where the value of human life is
>appreciated."
> -- Samuel Johnson (paraphrased)
Never heard that before. I like it!
Dave Hitt
Occasionaly. Once in a while. Very seldom, but it happens.
However, the risk of it NOT happening is far, far greater than the
likelihood of it happening. You seem delighted to let these vile
monsters back into the world on the off chance that maybe they're one
of the very few who change their ways. If they're not, another parent
gets to bury a bloody, bludgeoned, rape mess that was once their
child.
I don't think that's a risk worth taking. You do. But why won't you
answer Elane's question? Will you have them live with you? Or at
least next door to you?
Elaine Jackson
>"Elaine Jackson" <cornu...@aol.comjunkblok> wrote in message
>> I wonder though. At what point did his life, his future and his
>> psychological comfort become so important to you? At what point did her
life,
>> her future and her suffering become unimportant to you?
>Her suffering, while horrific, is nothing compared to what her parents are
>enduring. While this may sound callous, compassionate people will
>understand when I say that at least Jennifer's suffering is over -- it ended
>with her death.
I agree. I am a parent, and apparently not as young as many of the other
folks here. So I do know from long experience what a child's minor injury does
to a loving parent; and I know what a medium-scale injury (a broken arm) does.
I can't imagine the suffering of those parents except that I know it diminishes
anything I've ever experienced in my own life. I don't want to imagine it,
ever. With all my heart, I don't want to experience it.
That's why I've posted on this thread several times. The negligent,
arrogant, I-am-the-final-aribiter-of-all-questions attitude of some young males
in this group toward other people's suffering both galls and frightens me. Even
though the topic sickens me, I have to speak up, to oppose a cruel, callous,
stupid "forgiveness", so that the imaginary rights of the vicious insane don't
continue to supercede the right of the innocent to live their lives.
Elaine
Elaine Jackson
>To you and I there is a difference between fame and infamy. To a
>criminal, there is not. In most cases, getting their name well known
>is an achievement, something they're proud of.
literal-minded* to even manufacture a plausible lie, let alone remember how
persons of diminished moral or intellectual capacity can be expected to behave.
(Altho I do too watch tv.) Thanks for pointing this out.
>He's doing 37 years to life. That's not much of a life to get one
>with. It's unlikely he'll ever see the outside of a prison.
Virtually guarantees him a long, protected, relatively comfy life, too,
doesn't it. I keep hearing news reports about how sentences are like monopoly
money - it seems like a lot at the time, but in actual practice it's bogus, and
"20 years" means "2 years, a mean frown, and a good talking-to".
37-to-life would be enough time for you and me to figure out why a long slow
murder isn't a "mistake", like dialing a wrong number, but likely not be long
enough for him.
Elaine J
*with ethnic slurs, no less, e.g., "J**z, Mom, you are *so* Polish".
Angry Male
convicted who served 2-1/2 years in prison for for 1st degree robbery.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this person, in addition
to being a persistent violent felon, is a clear and present danger to
society. He has no place on our streets and does not deserve a second
chance.
He had his second chance for redemption and he blew it by not only
kidnapping, torturing, raping and finally killing an innocent girl who
was out running her errands, but by destroying her family and harming
the well-being of our community.
I can only hope that he rots in jail - never to see freedom ever
again.
JmG <jmg...@bestweb.net> wrote in message news:<saq15u8euer1t4pn9...@4ax.com>...
Tom Hand
"Elaine Jackson" <cornu...@aol.comjunkblok> wrote in message
The best way for a less than human animal like that to be remembered would
be for him to be the guest of honor at a public hanging in the town square.
Tom Hand
> yet the terrorists aren't Christian... Hmm...
If you go back and read what I said, I indicted all "One, all-powerful god,"
religions. That certainly includes Islam and Judaism as well as
Christianity. The examples I gave in a subsequent post involved
Christianity, but I could have listed similar transgressions among the
others. Religions that have no god, and religions that honor multiple gods,
such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Unitarianism, Paganism, and the ancient Greeks
and Romans may be equally guilty of terrorizing humankind, but they haven't
done it in the name of god and religion.
The concept of one, all-powerful god does seem to drive people to
fanaticism, and the concept of salvation and redemption in an afterlife
seems to allow people to relive themselves of personal accountability for
their acts. The Islamic suicide terrorists were looking forward to an
afterlife of ecstasy with 40 virgins in the same way the Christian crusaders
were looking forward to everlasting rapture in heaven with their god.
Protestants who murder Catholics and Catholics who murder Protestants in
Belfast know that they are doing it to defend the honor of their Lord, and
that they will be rewarded for it in the afterlife. (I hope that their God,
which is the same guy for both, has set aside segregated quarters in heaven
for the two of them)
Dennis K Boyd
"Dave Hitt" <Boy....@Hate.spammers> wrote in message
news:3c525e3...@news3.newscene.com...
> JmG <jmg...@bestweb.net> wrote:
>
> >On 25 Jan 2002 00:41:37 GMT, cornu...@aol.comjunkblok (Elaine Jackson)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>| I think I see the problem. You see this sub-human as just a regular
guy whose
> >>|hobbies just happen to include rape and murder. The rest of us see him
as a
> >
> >That's a nice assumption on your part, but pretty damned wrong. I'm just
not a
> >fan of condemning people forever, with no chance of redemption. People
change.
>
>
> I don't think that's a risk worth taking. You do. But why won't you
> answer Elane's question? Will you have them live with you? Or at
> least next door to you?
For some odd reason, Rochester is often the place convicted felons are sent
after they serve time here in the People's Republik of NY. Willis Knight is
one on a long list of convicted rapists, armed robbers, murderers, and other
violent types who, somehow, end up on the streets of Rochester.
The state sends ex-cons here, criminals who aren't from here, as evidenced
by the Arthur Shawcross murder trial, where it was revealed he was a already
a convicted murderer of not one, but two children, brother and sister, in
1972 in Watertown. Apparently, a child's life is less important than an
adult's. He served 15 years, his minimum sentence, then was 'encouraged' by
the state to settle here, to find employment, etc.
Murdered people and other victims of violent crime don't get second chances,
they are often victims twice, by this I mean giving the criminal a second
chance, or, letting the perp. off, a la Orenthal James Simpson.
A 6 y/o boy killed his 3 y/o brother with a blunt object this past year here
in Rochester. This 6 y/o doesn't know better, he deserves a second chance.
Teenagers and adults deserve the full brunt of the law, they deserve the
stigma that comes with being a criminal for the rest of their lives.
Obviously, they didn't have a sense of shame and humility to begin with, to
prevent them from harming their fellow human, so they deserve what's coming
to them and deserve having to struggle to assert themselves after they serve
time. Ofcourse, I'm talking about the ones who actually try to be decent
citizens.
'Course, could be wrong. Only my opinion.
-Dennis
JmG
>|Again, I encourage you to invite Jennifer's killer into your house and home
>|when and if he is released from prison -- maybe he can babysit your kids or
>|your grandkids. Maybe he can date your daughter or your sister. If they're
>|too young for him, how about hiring him as a companion caregiver for your
>|elderly mother or grandmother?
You are clearly too emotional to discuss this with.
J
Rob G.
>
> "Rob G." <gd...@rochesterNOSPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:vnU38.64362$Sf1.14...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> > "Little Lisa" <la...@budweiser.com> wrote in message
> >
> > Ah, but Tom would have us believe it's all the fault of Christianity.
And
> > yet the terrorists aren't Christian... Hmm...
>
> If you go back and read what I said, I indicted all "One, all-powerful
god,"
> religions. That certainly includes Islam and Judaism as well as
> Christianity. The examples I gave in a subsequent post involved
> Christianity, but I could have listed similar transgressions among the
> others. Religions that have no god, and religions that honor multiple
gods,
> such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Unitarianism, Paganism, and the ancient Greeks
> and Romans may be equally guilty of terrorizing humankind, but they
haven't
> done it in the name of god and religion.
>
religion as a reason to commit atrocities? You were rather quick to toss
around any manufactured examples of crimes committed in the name of
Christianity, and yet you ignore anything polytheistic religions may have
done. The Egyptians wiped out their own people when Akhenaton changed the
religion to worship one god. When the polytheists came back into power, they
wiped out his followers and destroyed the temples.
The Egyptians enslaved the Jews. Or do you consider that justifiable because
the Jews are monotheists?
If you wish to apply such broad interpretations to what could be considered
Christian acts, you should apply the same interpretations to polytheistic
religions. It's only fair.
> The concept of one, all-powerful god does seem to drive people to
> fanaticism, and the concept of salvation and redemption in an afterlife
> seems to allow people to relive themselves of personal accountability for
> their acts. The Islamic suicide terrorists were looking forward to an
> afterlife of ecstasy with 40 virgins in the same way the Christian
crusaders
> were looking forward to everlasting rapture in heaven with their god.
> Protestants who murder Catholics and Catholics who murder Protestants in
> Belfast know that they are doing it to defend the honor of their Lord, and
> that they will be rewarded for it in the afterlife. (I hope that their
God,
> which is the same guy for both, has set aside segregated quarters in
heaven
> for the two of them)
>
>
And here is where the difficulty lies. You are taking the actions and words
of the extremists of each and every monotheistic religion to be indicative
of all followers of those religions. I do not consider the suicide bombers
to be representative of all followers of Islam, nor do I consider Irish
Catholics and Protestants to be representative of their religions. The
horrors you mention were committed by extremists. None of these monotheistic
religions preach violence or murder. It is only the twisted interpretations
of a few wackos who claim to speak for their religions that reflect poorly
on Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. Painting every member of these religions
with the same brush is very narrow-minded and downright ignorant.
--
Rob G.
Tom Hand
"Rob G." <gd...@rochesterNOSPAM.rr.com> wrote in message news:VZm48.1717None
of these monotheistic
> religions preach violence or murder. It is only the twisted
interpretations
> of a few wackos who claim to speak for their religions that reflect poorly
> on Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. Painting every member of these
religions
> with the same brush is very narrow-minded and downright ignorant.
Only a few wackos were responsible for the Crusades? The Inquisition? The
extinction of the Incas and the Aztecs? The genocide in the Balkans?
Hitler was the most evil world leader of the twentieth century but he let
what he recognized as the inherent evil of Christianity carry out much of
his work for him, especially in gaining the active support of the
established German Protestant church and the tacit support of the worldwide
Catholic church for his "Final Solution."
Rob G.
>
> "Rob G." <gd...@rochesterNOSPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
news:VZm48.1717None
> of these monotheistic
> > religions preach violence or murder. It is only the twisted
> interpretations
> > of a few wackos who claim to speak for their religions that reflect
poorly
> > on Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. Painting every member of these
> religions
> > with the same brush is very narrow-minded and downright ignorant.
>
> Only a few wackos were responsible for the Crusades? The Inquisition?
The
> extinction of the Incas and the Aztecs? The genocide in the Balkans?
>
the Inquisition. Both took place at a time when cultures and situations were
different than today, but it still does not justify those actions.
You continue to attempt your exagerations, but the Incas and Aztecs were
wiped out more for gold and territory than for religion.
> Hitler was the most evil world leader of the twentieth century but he let
> what he recognized as the inherent evil of Christianity carry out much of
> his work for him, especially in gaining the active support of the
> established German Protestant church and the tacit support of the
worldwide
> Catholic church for his "Final Solution."
>
"Inherent evil?" You need to explain that one. I'll say it again:
Christianity is not evil. Nor are Judaism, Islam, or any of the other world
religions. Hitler did not "let" Christianity do anything. He's another of
those who warped the true message of Christianity to serve his purpose. And
how did he win support from the "worldwide Catholic Church?" (I do notice
how you changed your earlier statement that the Pope spoke for all
Christians. Nice to see you've learned something.) Just because the Pope
makes a statement does not mean the entire Catholic Church approves of it.
There have been countless statements against birth control, but a vast
majority of Catholics still use it. The Pope making a statement can hardly
be used as a condemnation of all Catholics. Besides, you're still making the
assumption that the Pope speaks for all Catholics. There do exist Catholic
sects that do not follow the Pope. Perhaps a little more research is in
order for you.
Aside from all that, the horrors you've mentioned are still the actions of
organized religion. You're claiming Christianity is evil. Organized
Christianity may be somewhat corrupt and out of touch with reality, but I
have never argued against that. Belief that Jesus was the son of God, or
that Mohammed was a prophet, hardly make someone evil. It is when extreme
views are taken that atrocities occur.
--
Rob G.
Dave Hitt
KD, you just won! (You always win when your adversary runs away with
his tail between his legs.)
Dave Hitt
>A 6 y/o boy killed his 3 y/o brother with a blunt object this past year here
>in Rochester. This 6 y/o doesn't know better, he deserves a second chance.
I think you may have hit on something here.
Obviously, a child who doesn't know any better deserves a second
chance.
The left thinks we are all children, who must turn to the government
for everything, including guidance and sustenance.
So...by extentsion...this *might* explain why the left is so adamant
about giving the most vile of criminals second, and third, and fourth
chances. Since we're *all* children, then there is no difference
between a 20 year old rapist murder and a 6 year old kid. They're all
just people who have made a mistake, and so deserve to be forgiven.
Kenneth C.
> just people who have made a mistake, and so deserve to be forgiven.
I whole heartedly agree. Everyone deserves forgiveness.
--
"A good player is always lucky"
Capablanca
-----------------------
Kenneth C.
"Dave Hitt" <Boy....@Hate.spammers> wrote in message
news:3c5ed3ff...@news3.newscene.com...
> "Dennis K Boyd" <mopa...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
>
> >A 6 y/o boy killed his 3 y/o brother with a blunt object this past year
here
> >in Rochester. This 6 y/o doesn't know better, he deserves a second
chance.
>
> I think you may have hit on something here.
>
> Obviously, a child who doesn't know any better deserves a second
> chance.
>
> The left thinks we are all children, who must turn to the government
> for everything, including guidance and sustenance.
>
> So...by extentsion...this *might* explain why the left is so adamant
> about giving the most vile of criminals second, and third, and fourth
> chances. Since we're *all* children, then there is no difference
> between a 20 year old rapist murder and a 6 year old kid.
>
>
Jim Elbrecht
-snip-
>
> "If a shipwrecked man struggles to shore on a foreign land and, as he
>crawls onto the beach, sees in the distance a gallows, he may breathe a sigh of
>relief that he has reached a land where the value of human life is
>appreciated."
> -- Samuel Johnson (paraphrased)
Elaine,
Do you happen to remember any more details on the actual quote? Or
where Johnson said that?
I like the quote & asked the 'Samuel Johnson expert' over on
alt.quotations for the cite & he wasn't able to come up with anything.
His reply is
Newsgroups: alt.quotations
Subject: Re: S. Johnson on Capital Punishment
Message-ID: <mob65ugvuoc1f7ub5...@4ax.com>
For anyone who likes to read a little Samuel Johnson, Frank is the
compiler of the Samuel Johnson Sound Bite Page at:
http://www.samueljohnson.com/
Jim
steve spence
done in the name of religion.
--
Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm
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Human powered devices, equipment, and transport -
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ssp...@webconx.com
"Elaine Jackson" <cornu...@aol.comjunkblok> wrote in message
news:20020124194133...@mb-co.aol.com...
Rob G.
news:AFH48.7632$Ou1.1...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> They're all
> > just people who have made a mistake, and so deserve to be forgiven.
>
> I whole heartedly agree. Everyone deserves forgiveness.
Not everyone deserves forgiveness. The only ones who might deserve it are
those who show true remorse for what they've done. If someone killed your
family and then never showed any sign of guilt or remorse, would you still
feel they deserved to be forgiven? No one should ever be forgiven unless
they first seek to be forgiven.
--
Rob G.
John Ramsay
considerably altered.
Sounds like it came from Johnson's letter to Lord Chesterfield, who once
refused to sponsor him, then offered to do so after Johnson became a
success.
Jim Elbrecht
>cornu...@aol.comjunkblok (Elaine Jackson) wrote:
>
>-snip-
>>
>> "If a shipwrecked man struggles to shore on a foreign land and, as he
>>crawls onto the beach, sees in the distance a gallows, he may breathe a sigh of
>>relief that he has reached a land where the value of human life is
>>appreciated."
>> -- Samuel Johnson (paraphrased)
I got another response over on alt.quotations--- This changes the
meaning of the quote 100%, but I'll bet it is the origin of the
paraphrased 'Samuel Johnson' quote. [and it isn't likely to be Johnson
in this form-- though whether the Mencken or someone was poking fun at
Johnson & Christians, or the guy on soc.retirement mis-remembered is
up in the air]
>Mencken's dictionary, s.v. Christianity, has
>
> A shipwrecked sailor, landing on a lonely beach, observed a
> gallows. "Thank God," he exclaimed, "I am in a Christian
> country!" Author unidentified
The person who posted it speculated that because Christianity &
hanging were both common Mencken themes, he wouldn't be surprised if
'Anon' was Mencken himself.
Jim
Elaine Jackson
>>
The person who posted it speculated that because Christianity &
hanging were both common Mencken themes, he wouldn't be surprised if
'Anon' was Mencken himself.
Jim <<
Hm. Interesting idea! Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for a reply from the
Other Newsgroup. The whole internet-paraphrased-quotation thang is beginning
to seem awfully circuitous, as well as curiouser and curiouser...
Elaine
peanu...@gmail.com
He raped me a couple months before he killed Jennifer! And I remember like it happen yesterday! Sick person! He was going to east high school and I went to Jefferson hig