Simmilarites Between Ancient Maedonian and Todays' Macedonian Culture(Linguistics and Onomastics)
Linkestanec
Culture(Linguistics and Onomastics)
Author: Prof. Aleksandar DONSKI
(Short and specially adapted version of a larger passage from the book
"Ancient Macedonian Heritage in Todays' Macedonian Nation")
Translated in English by:Prof. Marijan GALEVSKI
(parts associated with linguistics, narrative sources and notes)
Dr. Michael SERAPHINOFF
(part associtated with onomastics)
The Ancient Macedonians are among the most famous nations in the history.
Probably the most famous of all in the row of renown ancient Macedonians is
Alexander The Great of Macedon, who was driven by his idea of a World State
where all the people will live together in equality. His father, Philip II
of Macedon is also very well known. Aristotle1), one of the greatest
philosophers of all times was also a Macedonian (by father), and so was the
Egyptian queen Cleopatra VII (she was a distant grand-daughter of the
Macedonian general Ptolemy, friend of Alexander The Great since their
childhood)2). The members of the Seleucides and Ptolemais dynasties were
also Macedonians, and a few of them are mentioned in the Bible3). There are
views within the scientific community that The Holy Evangelist Luke4), as
well as a number of Byzantine tzars5) all carried the Macedonian genes.
The contribution of ancient Macedonians to the world civilisation is large
and of great importance6).
What was the ethnic origin of the ancient Macedonians? Despite the views in
some parts of the scientific community today that the ancient Macedonians
were part of the Hellenes, the idea that ancient Macedonians were a separate
nation is becoming increasingly accepted among the scientific circles around
the world7). The ancient Greek historians clearly stated that the
Macedonians were a separate people from the Hellenes. The Greek historian
Arrian (I AD) wrote that there was a "racial rivalry" between the ancient
Macedonians and the Greeks8).
There are a certain number of arguments and strong indications in support of
the existence of (at least partial) ethno-cultural links between the ancient
Macedonians and Veneti.
Before presenting some of these arguments, it is required to affirm that the
Veneti were among the oldest nations in Europe. Narratively the Veneti were
initially mentioned as people from Asia Minor, and later on as Balkan people
as well. Furthermore, there are number of testimonials and evidences that
the ancient people Veneti were the ancestors of the so called "Slavs"10).
This practically means that the ancient Macedonians and the so called
"Slavs" should have (at least partial) common ethno-cultural background.
Following are only some of the arguments in support of this as a wider
elaboration is required to fully cover this topic and the space on this
occasion is limited.
The ancient Macedonians used their own vernacular, Macedonian language.
There are number of testimonials from the ancient historians in support of
this fact. For instance, the Greek historian Plutarch (I AD), describing a
quarrel between Alexander The Great and one of his friends wrote that
Alexander "jumped on his feet and in Macedonian called on his
shield-bearers"11).
In his biography of Marc Anthony, Plutarch mentioned that Macedonian was the
mother tongue of the Egyptian queen Cleopatra VII and of her ancestors from
the Macedonian dynasty Ptolemais12).
The Latin historian Quintus Curtius Rufus (I AD) also testified that the
ancient Macedonians spoke a separate, Macedonian language. He described the
trial of the Macedonian Philotas for contriving a plot to murder Alexander
The Great. The plot was discovered and Philotas was publicly interrogated by
Alexander. Describing this event, Quintus Curtius Rufus clearly stated that
the Macedonians spoke separate, Macedonian language13).
An evidence about the distinction of the Macedonian language was found on
fragment of a papyrus which was thought to be a part of the lost work
"History of the successors" by the ancient Greek historian Arrian. In this
papyrus (PSI XII.1284) an episode from the history of ancient Macedonia has
been described where the distinction of Macedonian language has been clearly
emphasized. It has been described in this text how the secretary of Philip
and Alexander of Macedon, Eumenes was: ".sending forth a man called Xennias
who was Macedonian in speech." to negotiate with the Macedonian army of
Neoptolemeus. This event took place around 321 BC.14)
That the Macedonian was a distinct vernacular characteristic to the
Macedonians confirm the anti-Macedonian speeches given by the great orator
from Athens, Demosthenes. In his work "Philippic" Demosthenes gave the
following insulting remark about the Macedonian King Philip II of Macedon:
"That man Philip, not only he is not a Greek, but also he does not have
anything in common with the Greeks. If only he would have been a barbarian
from a decent country - but he is not even that. He is a scabby creature
from Macedonia - a land that one can not even bring a slave that is worth
something from".15)
The question why Demosthenes named Philip as a barbarian becomes imminent.
Majority of the scientists believe that the term "barbarians" in the ancient
period was used to refer mainly to people that spoke language that Greeks
could not understand, usually accompanied by a dose of disregard towards the
culture of the people speaking that language. It is well known that all the
people that did not speak Greek were named "barbarians", whereas the Greeks
from the city-states used the word "xenoi" when referring to one-another.16)
Demosthenes was not alone in naming the Macedonians "barbarians". Ancient
Greek historian Isocrates also called the Macedonians "barbarians".17)
The Greek Trasymachus, in his speech before the Larisians in V BC named the
Macedonian king Archelaos "barbarian" in relation to the Greeks
Larisians.18)
However, it stands for a fact that the elites in power in ancient Macedonia
at a certain stage of the development of Macedonia took up the Greek
literary language and some elements of the Greek culture (religion,
onomastics etc). It needs to be emphasized that this does not mean at all
that the Macedonians were Hellenes. First thing to be said in relation to
this is that the Greek literary language at the time was also used by many
other nations that were not Hellenes: Thracians, Jews, Ilyrians, even the
Romans, all these people at some stage in the ancient period wrote in old
Greek language. Such examples can be witnessed even today: the Irish speak
and write in English and are not English; Brazilians speak and write in
Portugese and are not Portugese etc.
As far as adopting the Old Greek language by the Macedonian royalty is
concerned, it is a fact that this occurred at a certain stage of development
of the Macedonian state. Supporting this fact is the non-existence of not
even a single inscription in Greek on the territory of Macedonia to be dated
from and before V BC, which matches with the period prior to the partial
adoption of the Greek culture in Macedonia. The fact that many of the
inscriptions in Greek found (from a later date though) contain many
grammatical errors, is by itself a proof in support of the truth, that is
the Old Greek language was foreign to the Macedonians.
What was like the ancient Macedonian language?
There are only a certain number of preserved words, and from the current
knowledge the structure of the ancient Macedonian can not be fully
synthesised. Most of the ancient Macedonian words are different to the
ancient Greek language words, however there are a few that are similar. For
the words from the ancient Macedonian language that are similar to the
ancient Greek language words are believed to be taken on from Greek.19) In
fact, this occurrence was and still is characteristic for all languages in
the world. In the Macedonian language today terms are adopted from foreign
languages mainly where there is no authentic terminology or analogy. For
instance: antena (antenna); satelit (satellite); mobilen telefon
(mobile/cellular phone); kompjuter (computer) etc. These foreign words are
being adapted in accordance with the modern Macedonian phonetic system. This
needs to be taken into account when analysing the ancient Macedonian
language. The authenticity and the nature of a language can not be possibly
determined only by the words that language adopted from another language.
One needs to bear in mind that almost all the preserved ancient Macedonian
words reached modern age through their Greek transcript which makes it more
difficult to identify their true meaning. It is important that the
phenomenon "Interpretato Graeca" is mentioned here, that is greekifying of
all the foreign words: nouns, verbs, and especially names. A specific
characteristic of this process is adding the suffix "os" or "s" to the
foreign words, and this will be discussed later in this paper.
Despite all this, it is very interesting to note that many of the authentic
ancient Macedonian words, according to their etymology and pronunciation,
have a striking resemblance to the appropriate words used in the modern
Macedonian language (and other so called "Slav" languages).
For instance, the word "tshelniku" which translated in English means
foremost is a very interesting case. The British historian Hammond mentioned
its etymology and said that the word "tshelniku" in the ancient Macedonian
language had a meaning of "leader of a group". Hammond says that this word
was translated into Greek only in the 14th century as "phylarchos".20)
The word "tshelnik" with completely identical etymology and pronunciation
has been registered in the so called "old Slavic language" in Macedonia as
early as 11th century! Proof of this is the entry of Byzantine chronicle
writer Kekavmen where he described the events surrounding the anti-Byzantine
uprising of Petar Deljan in 11th century. He said that in the language of
the rebels "the strategist is called tshelnik"!21) It is known that Kekavmen
was fluent in the "language of the Slavs" in Macedonia therefore he could
translate the Greek word "strategist" as "tshelnik" (the strategist was a
high military rank in Byzantine). It is even more interesting that the word
"tshelnik" with identical etymology and pronunciation is being used in
todays' Macedonian language and in other "Slav" languages, as well! This can
not be a coincidence, especially considering the fact that there could be
hundreds of thousands etymological meanings that a single word can
represent, and in this instance there is an identical etymological meaning
for a word that has also an identical pronunciation.
The remark that the middle age Macedonians simply borrowed this word from
the language of ancient Macedonians and used it in 11th century is not
valid. Assuming that it is so, becomes impossible to explain the fact that
this word is present in the contemporary Croatian literary language. Have
they inherited this word from the ancient Macedonians as well? It is the
same with the contemporary Serbian and Bulgarian literary languages where
this word is also present with the same pronunciation and etymology.
It is highly likely that through analysis of the word "tshelniku" some other
characteristics of the ancient Macedonian language could be identified,
considering the fact that in the contemporary Macedonian language this word
is deducted from the noun "tshelo" - forehead.
As mentioned previously, the non-Greek words were recorded by the ancient
Greeks on as-heard basis without analysing the form of the word. Due to the
fact the word "tshelniku" had been recorded inclusive of the vowel "u" at
the end, it is anticipated that "tshelniku" was recorded by the ancient
Greeks in its vocative form. The vocative form of the noun "tshelnik" in the
contemporary Macedonian language is precisely "tshelniku". Is it maybe that
the Greeks used to hear the word "tshelniku" every time a Macedonian
addressed the leader, therefore recorded this word without realising that
they were recording its vocative form?
Another word that is also very interesting in this regard is the word
"phoinikos", which is related to the warfare22). Indubitable this word is
very much alike the contemporary Macedonian word "voinik" meaning "soldier".
There could be a little doubt that these words have a common origin. Why is
this so? In the ancient Greek language the consonant "v" did not exist23).
The conclusion is imminent that the true pronunciation of the word
"phoinikos" would be "voinikos" ("ph" replaced with "v"). In addition to
this, as established earlier in this text, ancient Greeks added the suffix
"os" to a lot of non-Greek words they recorded. If the word "phoinikos" had
been subjected to the "Interpretato Graeca" phenomenon i.e. if the suffix
"os" had been added to this non-Greek word, by taking out the Greek suffix
we arrive at the contemporary Macedonian word "voinik" (soldier). Not only
the pronunciation, but also the etymology of the word "voinik" is very
similar to that of the word "phoinikos" and is located in the domain of
warfare.
An abundance of water is described with the word "vodi" in contemporary
Macedonian language. The corresponding ancient Macedonian word for this is
the word "vedy". The Greek archaeologist Aliki Stuyanaki in the periodical
"Edesaika Hronika" (Edessa, may-august, 1972) advised that the Macedonian
city of Voden, to which the Greeks gave the name "Edessa", was originally a
Brygian city and its old name was Vedy which means abundance of water24).
Furthermore, St. Clement of Alexandria wrote that ancient Macedonians had a
great respect towards the water (springs, wells, rivers) and they worshiped
the Macedonian divinity they called Vedy25). In this instance as well, the
similarity between pronunciation of a contemporary Macedonian and an ancient
Macedonian word is undeniable, and again their etymology is identical.
The contemporary Macedonian verb "pesh" (walk) in ancient Macedonian would
have been pronounced "pez"26).
"Pella"27) is another ancient Macedonian word. The etymology of this word is
"a stone". The corresponding word in contemporary Macedonian language is
"spila", which is similar in pronunciation with the ancient Macedonian word
"pella".
The ancient Macedonian word recorded through its Greek interpretation as
"skoidos" bears the meaning of judges. In contemporary Macedonian this
meaning is conveyed using the word "sudii"28).
[...]
http://www.mymacedonia.net/ancient/simmilarites.htm
Linkestanec
Culture(Linguistics and Onomastics)
- page 2 -
There are number of ancient Macedonian words with undetermined etymology
which in their pronunciation undeniably resemble contemporary Macedonian
words, as well as words from other so called "Slavic languages".
A very good example is the word "arotos" which ancient Macedonians used as
an epithet to the god Heracles29). Its etymology is undetermined to-date,
however if the suffix "s" is deleted this word is practically identical with
the adjective "aroto" - "the old one" (archaism to a degree) from the
present Macedonian language. According to a legend Heracles was considered
to be the oldest ascendant of the Macedonians. Can the answer for the
etymology of the word "arotos" be located in this legend, by referring to
Heracles as "the old one" or "aroto(s)"?
It is inevitable that the Macedonian Phalanx is mentioned in this
discussion. The strongest weapon of the phalanx was the long spear called
"sarissa". It is very interesting to analyse the etymology of the word
"sarissa". The first and obvious question is whether the first letter of
this word, the letter "s", is authentic or perhaps there should be the
letter "z" instead? It is well known that the name of the Brygian (ancient
Macedonian) goddess was recorded as both "Semela" and "Zemela". If this is
applied to the word "sarissa" i.e. the letter "s" is replaced with the
letter "z" it will transform into the word "zarissa". An exciting assumption
emerges regarding the etymology of this word. The reflexive verb in its
dialectical form "zari se" in the contemporary Macedonian is identical in
pronunciation with the word "zarisa" (thrust itself in, pierce itself into).
This is of course an assumption, which nevertheless has a solid base in the
information presented in relation to the pronunciation and etymology of the
words discussed previously.
By analysing ancient Macedonian words that have a determined etymology, it
is possible to make some assumptions and even draw some conclusions
regarding certain grammatical forms of the ancient Macedonian language. This
forms are identical with the forms of the contemporary Macedonian language.
It is worth to mention that there were words in the ancient Macedonian
language that (at least without performing a deeper analysis) appear to have
a little in common with the contemporary Macedonian language. However, the
presence of these words does not deny the existence of words from the
contemporary Macedonian language in the ancient Macedonian language. In
fact, for some of these words it is more than obvious that they had existed
in the ancient Macedonian vocabulary.
We should also turn attention to a portion of the ancient Macedonian
onomastics. At the same time it is necessary to keep in mind two things.
First, there is no doubt that the ancient Macedonians (mainly those from the
highest circles) accepted part of the Hellenic onomastics. But in fact a
large number of Macedonian names were different than those in the Hellenic
onomasticon, while a considerable number of these are reminiscent of the
later Macedonian onomasticon, or are derived from words of Macedonian or
from so called "Slavic" (Venetic) origin.
A second thing that needs to be kept in mind is the fact that ancient
Macedonian personal names up to our own time mainly achieved written form
through their Greek (and in a smaller number Latin as well) transcription.
We can surmise that a considerable number of these names were given the
added Greek suffixes "os" and "s", and more rarely "us". There are a lot of
proofs for this, but here for lack of space we shall only mention that, in
our research we have noted over 350 personal names written by ancient Greek
authors, which names belonged to various non-Greek peoples. The overwhelming
number of these Persian, Thracian, Illyrian, Egyptian, Scythian, Brygian,
Libyan, Indian, and other personal names (but also toponyms and other words)
were artificially Hellenized by the old Greek authors, adding the Greek
suffix "os", and where appropriate "s". Sometimes the old Greek authors went
to such lengths that the foreign name was totally changed in the process.
Thus, for example, the Egyptian Pharaoh Khu-fu in Greek sources became
written as CheopS (with the attached Greek suffix "s"). Later the Indian
King Chandragupta was written by Greeks as SandroticOS, and so forth.
Sometimes the only change to the name would be the Greek ending "os" or "s".
Thus, for example, the name of the Egyptian King Psamtic was written by
Greeks as PsametihOS. The Macedonian name Ata, as well, became written as
both Ata and AtaS (Hellenized by addition of the suffix "s"), etc.
We've said that we have identified hundreds of such examples of artificially
Hellenized non-Greek names (but also other non-Greek words) by old Greek
writers, which for lack of space here, will not be mentioned. According to
such practices of that time it happened that peoples from quite disparate
cultures, ethnic origins (and even races) such as the Persians, Egyptians,
Illyrians, Arabians, Libyans, Thracians, Ethiopians, Scythians, Indians,
Macedonians, and others, all had identical (Greek) endings on their names.
This is so unlikely as to be unbelievable. Therefore, in the following
discussion particular attention will be paid to the roots of personal names,
given the extensive artificial use of the Greek suffixes "os" and "s" (as
well as "us").
In the ancient Macedonian onomasticon we will include several Brygian names
(most of them found in Macedonia) as well. This is for the simple reason
that Brygians played a major role in the ethnogenesis of the ancient
Macedonians30). But to pass on to concrete instances. We will mention a
portion of the ancient Macedonian names which are the same or very similar
to later Macedonian names or words, as well as names and words of the other
so called "Slavic languages". Most of these names are present in todays'
Macedonian onomasticon 31) .
Ata(s). The root of this name contains the noun "at", which in the so
called "Old Slavic language" meant "a horse". We note that the ancient
Macedonians were great horsemen and horses were very importaint for them.
Such names allready exsists in onomasticons of other peoples (for example
Bulgarians have their popular name
Asparuh, which means "speed horse" in Old Bulgarian language). The same name
"Ata" is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Apell(es). The root of this name contains the noun "apel" (a call) which we
have in the present day Macedonian language.
Atarhi(as). The root of this name contains the noun "atar". This is a
Macedonian archaism for the word "love". Names that contain the word "love"
exist in a majority of lexicons.
Bere(s). The root of this name contains the verb "bere" (to pick up) that
exists today in the Macedonian language and in other "Slavic" languages.
Also in the present day Macedonian onomasticon there are names derived from
verbs. The name "Bere" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Crater(us)32). The root of this name contains the word "krater" (crater)
which exsists in the present day Macedonian and other "Slavic" languages. In
todays' Macedonian onomasticon is present the name "Krate".
Caran(us)33). This name might be connected to the present day Macedonian
noun "kruna" (a crown). The name "Karanche" is present In todays' Macedonian
onomasticon.
Dada. The noun "dada" in the present day Macedonian language means "older
sister". The name "Dada" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Daron. This is a name for the ancient Macedonian god of healing. Its
etymology is known, and it means "he that gives health." This means that the
name of this god contains the Macedonian noun "dar" (a gift). The names
Darun, Dare, Dara and others are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Del(us). The verb "dela" (to work) exists in the so called "Old Slavic
language", as well as in several present day "Slavic languages". The name
"Dele" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Dimno(s). The adjective "dimno" exists in the present day Macedonian
language and still means "steamy The names Dimna, Dimon, Dimnak and others
are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Diplai(os)34). A name of an upper Macedonian (Payonian) ruler. In his name
is the noun "dipla" that in dialectal form in the present day Macedonian
language means a bouquet of flowers. The noun "dipla" is also used as a
designation for a type of old Macedonian instrument.
Dita. The noun exists in Slavic languages as "dite" or "dete", which means
"a child". In 19th century Macedonian onomasticon was recordered the same
name "Dita".
Dita(s). This is an obvious form of the preceding name Dita, but it has been
Hellenized with the suffix "s".
Dud(es). The noun "dud" (a type of wood) exists in several "Slavic"
languages. The names Dude and Duda are present in todays' Macedonian
onomasticon.
Glaukia(s)35). Could this name be derived from the noun "glava" (a head)? In
19th century Macedonia one finds the male name Glavko.36)
Gauan(us). This is an old originally ancient Macedonian name, first
mentioned by Herodotus. It has obvious similarities to the noun "gaval",
that represents an archaism for the "kaval" (a short Macedonian wind
instrument). In 15th century Macedonia one finds the male names: Gavale and
Gavala.
Kopria. This name has possible connections to the noun "kopra" (a dill). It
is a well-known practice to derive personal names from those of the plant
world. In 16th century Macedonia one finds the female name Kopra.
Lasten. This name may be connected to the noun "lastovica" (in Serbian:
"lasta"), which means "a swallow". The name Laste is present in today's
Macedonian onomasticon.
Lyka. This female Macedonian name, which exists in the present day
language, is possibly derived from the noun "lika" (a face, pretty face).
The name Lika is present in today's Macedonian onomasticon.
Milo. This name was mentioned by Plutarch as a name of a Macedonian
military leader in the Macedonian-Roman conflicts. This name exists to the
present day in the Macedonian onomasticon. It has an obvious identification
with the present day Macedonian adjective "milo" (dear), from which a number
of names are (Milosh, Milko, Milka).
Mesti(us). The root of this name contains the noun (archaism) "mesti"
(small childrens' shoes made from wool). In later Macedonian onomasticon
there were also names derived from pieces of clothes.
Mamina. This name fully corresponds to the present day Macedonian
adjective "mamina" (the one who belongs to her mother). In 18th and 19th
century Macedonia one finds the female name Maminka.
Mama. This is identical to the present day Macedonian noun "mama", which in
any case, exists in other languages. In 15th century Macedonia one finds the
female name Mamica (deminutive for Mama).
Mama(s). It is obvious that this is a Hellenized variant on the previous
name.
Manta. The noun "mantija", that exists in the present day Macedonian
language represents a type of long garment. In 19th century Macedonia one
finds the same female name Manta.
Mantyes. This is probably a variant of the previous name. The spoken form of
this word (without the suffix "s") is still closer to the noun "mantija".
Med(es). The root of this name contains the noun "med" (honey), which exists
in todays' Macedonian language as well in most other "Slavic" languages. The
name Mede is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Myrcin(us). Name of a king of an ancient Macedonian tribe Edoni, mentioned
by Herodotus. If we remove the Greek "us", we get the name Myrcin (Mirkin).
To the present day in the Macedonian language there is the female name
"Mirka" (derived from the noun "mir", which means peace), while "Mirkin" is
an adjective which means "The one who belongs to Mirka". Among the
Macedonians, right up to the 20th century, men frequently received names
derived from their mother's name (Kanin son of Kana; Mirkin son of Mirka and
etc.). Could that be the case with this name? The names Mirkan, Mirin and so
on are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Mucati. The verb "mucati" exists in a number of the "Slavic" languages. In
the Macedonian language the verb "mucna" means "to speak". Maybe this name
can be connected to the noun "mucka" (snout). If we read "c" as "k", then
maybe the root of this name can be connected to the noun "mukach" (which
means a cry baby). The names Mucan Muce, Mucko, Mukan, Muko are present in
todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Nana. The noun "nana" in the Macedonian language today is used to signify an
older female relative. In dialectal form "nana" takes the form of the verb,
to sleep. The name Nana is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Pita. The noun "pita" (a type of food), can be found in a number of "Slavic"
languages. In todays' Macedonian onomasticon is present the name Pito. There
are other Macedonian names derived from the food: Piroshka, Pituluca and
others.
Pittak(os). Could this be a variant of the previous name? The noun "pitach"
exists in the present day Macedonian language, with the meaning, "one who
begs". The names Pito and Pitako are present in todays' Macedonian
onomasticon.
Plator. The noun "plat" exists in the present day Macedonian language as a
type of high quality cloth. The suffix "or" is encountered in other male
personal names, which means that it is independent of the root "plat". The
name Platin is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Pyri(as).The root of this name could be connected to the noun "pir"
(merriment). The name Piri is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Pyrh(os). This is probably a variant of the previous name.
Perustae. The noun "perustija" in the present day Macedonian language means
an iron spit for cooking meat over a fire, an item that had great
significance in the preparation of food in the past. The name Peruska is
present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Rumi37). A female name that could possibly be connected to the adjective
"rumena" (ripe red). In todays' Macedonian onomasticon there is name "Rumi",
which is short form of the name "Rumena" (ripe red).
Sita. A name that is identical to the present day Macedonian adjective
"sita" (eating to satisfaction). The male name Sitko is present in todays'
Macedonian onomasticon.
Sopol(is).This ancient Macedonian name is mentioned by the Greek
historian Arrian as the name of a Macedonian officer in the army of
Alexander the Great. It obviously contains the root "sopol" (a strong
spring) from the so called "Old Slavic language". The name Sopol is present
in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Stasanor. This name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "stasan"
(ripe). We've said that the suffix "or" can be found in other male names,
which means that it is outside of the root "stasan". The names Stasin, Stase
and Staso are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Silen(us). Name of a forest demon in Brygian mythology. The root of this
name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "silen" (that which has
spiritual or physical strength). In middle age Macedonia one finds the
names: Silan, Silano and Silane.
Stamen(os)38). The root of this name contains the present day Macedonian
adjective "stamen" (reliable, firm). The name Stamen is present in todays'
Macedonian onomasticon.
Sever(os). The root of this word contains the noun "sever" (north), which
exists in in a number of present day "Slavic" languages. The name Sever is
present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Sipa. In the Macedonian language there exists the noun "sipa" (a type of
fish), which lives in Macedonian lake waters. It is a well known practice to
derive personal names from the names of animals. The name Sipe is present in
todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Sipa(s). This is obviously a Hellenized variant of the previous name.
Scritia39). The adjective "skrita" (secret) is apparent in this name that
exists in "Slavic" languages.
Tata, Tato, Tataia. These are obvious variations of a name derived from the
noun "tato" i "tata", which means "a father" and can be found in several
"Slavic" languages. The name "Tataia" probably is a variant on these two
names. In middle age Macedonia one find the names: Tato, Tate, Tatko, Tatka,
Tatin.
Temen(os). The root of this name contains the present day Macedonian
adjective "temen" (dark).
Traizina. The root of this word may contain the present day Macedonian
adjective "trazena" (expected, sought).
Tip(as). The root of this name contains the noun "tip" (type), which is a
word found in several Slavic languages. The names Tipa and Tipe are present
in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Vitel(is). The root of this name contains the noun "vitel", which is found
in the present day Macedonian and still means (whirlpool). The name Vitol is
present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Zaika. This is one of the most interesting ancient Macedonian female names.
It may represent a female form of the present day Macedonian "zajak"
(rabbit). In any case, there are numerous examples of names taken from names
of animals. The names Zaia (Zaja) and Zaiko (Zajko) are present in todays'
Macedonian onomasticon.
Zaimina. The present day Macedonian language contains the adjective
"zemjina" (in dialectal form "zemina") which means "the one who belongs to
Earth". There is also the adjective "zimna" (the one who belongs to the
winter"). The name Zemko is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
We would also add to this list the name of the well-known Brygian goddess
Zemela, who was goddess of the earth. There is an obvious similarity to the
Macedonian noun "zemja" (in dialectal form: "zemla"), which is similar in
other "Slavic" languages.
We would also mention the name of a Brygian tribe, the "Mushki", who lived
in the 9th century before Christ. Their name is identical to the noun
"mushki" (men), which exists in other "Slavic" languages. Their king was
called Mita a name which remains unchanged in a number of "Slavic"
languages.
[...]
http://www.mymacedonia.net/ancient/simmilarites1.htm
http://www.mymacedonia.net/ancient/simmilarites.htm
For fair use only.
Linkestanec
Culture(Linguistics and Onomastics)
- page 3 -
There are other personal names of ancient Macedonians which in their spoken
form have associations with present day Macedonian words, but only some of
the more obvious examples have been mentioned.
Regarding the above mentioned names, few things require some explanation.
Although it is obvious that in their spoken form they are completely or to a
great extent analogous to the Macedonian words that we have cited, as well
as those from a number of other "Slavic" languages, the question remains: is
this merely chance and is the etymology of these names consistent enough to
satisfy logic? For example, is it possible that someone really would name
their child "Perustija" (an iron tool for a hearth fire)? In order to answer
this question we can say that the criteria which was used in earlier times
to create personal names is not quite the same as the present day criteria
(at least in regard to the Macedonian onomasticon, and certainly in others
as well). Concretely, for names derived from household items we can say that
in 19th century Macedonia there is evidence of the female name "Masa" (a
table) as well a male name "Lambe" (a lamp). This means that even in the
near past there existed personal names connected to items for household use
that may justify the claim that the female name "Perustae" was derived from
the noun "perustija" (an iron tool for a hearth). Concerning the names that
we have dealt with that are derived from verbs, we can say that there also
exist today Macedonian names connected to specific activities that are names
derived from verbs. Thus, for example, there is the name "Gone" (to hunte,
to chase). Regarding the names connected to various items (mantija, plat,
mesti and etc.) we can say that in the 19th century there is documentation
for the name "Vuna" (dialectal form of the wool), which means that names
connected to items existed even in the recent past. There is even evidence
in the 19th century of the rare female name "Valkana" (Dirty). Although such
a name appears quite strange to present generations, that doesn't deny the
fact that our ancestors sometimes created personal names based on different
criteria than we use today, and that fact must be taken into account when
discussing their etymology.
There is plenty of ancient, middle age and modern age narrative evidence
concerning the analogy between the culture of the ancient Macedonians and
the culture of the Veneti (ancestors of the "Slavs").
The Latin historian Quintus Curtius Rufus in his biography of Alexander The
Great wrote that the Veneti from Asia Minor region of Paphlagonia took part
in the army of Alexander The Great. Quintus Curtius Rufus mentioned an
interesting piece of information. He wrote that Philotas, a Macedonian who
was a naturilised Hellen, teased his fellow Macedonians by calling them
"Phrygians or Paphlagians"40). He also wrote that the Macedonians were
unhappy about this and complained to Alexander The Great. Two very important
points to note here: Philotas equated the terms Phrygians and Paphlagonians.
It is well known that the Phrygians (in the Balkans were known as Brygians)
became the constitutional ethno-cultural core of the ancient Macedonians,
whereas the term Paphlagonians represents a geographic name for Veneti, i.e.
for the ancestors of the "Slavs". What this means actually is that Philotas
equated the ancient Macedonians and the Veneti, and this happened before IV
BC.
Even earlier than this, Herodotus wrote that Phrygians (ancient Macedonians)
and Paphlagonians (ancestors of the "Slavs") wore very similar clothes41).
There is narrative evidence regarding the analogy between the "Slav" and
ancient Macedonian culture from a later period as well. The Byzantine
historian and writer Nichephore Gregoras during his visit to the Macedonian
town of Strumica in 1326, recorded that there he heard a large number of
Macedonian folk songs. He affirms that, although he did not understand the
language of the local population, the folk songs from Strumica definitely
resembled - the Phrygian folk songs!42)
Also in the later periods a lot of foreign and Macedonian activists declared
that the "Slavs" were the same people as the ancient Macedonians!
Mauro Orbini, in his book "The Kingdom of the Slavs" (1601), wrote about the
presence of the "Slavs" during the period of Alexander The Great, even as a
part of his army. In this book, Orbini published a document, which
represents a Charter, that was sent to the "Slavs" by Alexander The Great as
a gesture of gratitude for taking part in Alexander's battles43). It is
important to note that Alexander's biographer Quintus Curtius Rufus also
wrote that the Veneti were a part of the Macedonian army.
The renowned Croatian historian from XVI century Vinko Pribichevich, in his
book "About the Origin and the Adventures of Slavs" (Venice, 1532) asserts
that ancient Macedonians are "Slavs". Middle-age Croatian reformists H.
Lucich, D. Zatarich, I. Gundulich, J. Palmotich and others, also shared this
belief and they all considered Alexander The Great a Slav. Matijan Alberti
of Split (1561-1623) also supported this theory.
Ancient Macedonians were considered to be "Slavs" (Veneti) by a number of
poets from Dubrovnik, and also a number of Russian historians: Butkov,
Saveljev, Rostislavich and Chertkov, as well as archimandrites Leonid and
Filrot. Mickevich from the Chair at the French College in Paris, in 1844
declared that the "Slavs are the oldest nation in Europe"44).
The German scholar Kuno, as well as the scholars Lelev and Bjeloski, put
forward their assertion that not only the Hellenes but also the "Slavs"
always lived on the Balkan peninsula, together with the Hellenes. The same
was maintained by the highly distinguished Pavle J. Shafranich (who
published a few books on this subject), as well as the Russian consul in
Bitola, Hitrov. This theory was represented by some Serbian activists at the
time45).
Renown Croatian folklorist from Bosnia Stefan Verkovich during his extended
visit to Macedonia in the 19th century recorded a large number of Macedonian
folklore deeds and in his letter to the newspaper "Dragoljub" in Zagreb
published in 1868 wrote: "The Slavs, and not the Greeks, are the forefathers
of the civilisation"46).
In his work "Veda Slovena" (1874) Verkovich wrote:"Our Slavs had a lively
tradition even in the times of Alexander The Great".
Bulgarian writer Stefan Zahariev claimed that the "Slavs" are the oldest
inhabitants of the Balkans and their literacy dates prior to the brothers
St. Cyril and St. Methodius47).
In an Albanian history book from the 19th century has been stated that the
Macedonians are the indigenous people of the Balkans and that Alexander The
Great was a "famous Macedonian-Slav tzar". These views were shared by renown
Macedonian intelectuals from the 19th century: Isaija Mazhovski, Gjorgji
Pulevski, Nikola D. Chuparov and others, who believed that the ancient
Macedonians and the "Slavs" are in fact the same people48).
Although the official Macedonian historiography (especially during the
totalitarian regime in the period after the World War II until its
indepence) mainly considered such articulations as national-romanticism, the
future research will show whether there is any truth to the above claims.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Notes:
1) Aristotle's mother was born in the Macedonian city of Stagira, however
this city at the time was an Athenian colony. This is why it is believed
that she was Hellen. However his father, Nicomachus was most probably a
Macedonian. He was a personal doctor of the Macedonian tzar Philip II (the
father of Alexander The Great). It is known that both Philip and his son
Alexander always appointed Macedonians in their immediate vicinity,
especially in very sensitive positions such as doctors, trusted generals,
bodyguards etc. This fact leads to a conclusion that Aristotle's father was
a Macedonian, a view supported by many contemporary historians.
2) There are many historical deeds about the famous Egyptian queen Cleopatra
VII describing her pure Macedonian origin. She was a daughter of Ptolemy
XII, and a distant granddaughter of Ptolemy I (Ptolemy I was a friend of
Alexander The Great since their childhood and a general in the Macedonian
army).
3) After the death of Alexander The Great the great Macedonian empire fell
apart, but the pieces consequent to the breakdown of the empire were still
ruled by Macedonians. Alexander's general Ptolemy set out to rule Egypt,
whereas the general Seleucus ruled Siria and southern Asia. These Macedonian
dynasties retained a lot of their Macedonian heritage in their tradition.
Later on their states were taken over by the Romans. A number of members of
these Macedonian dynasties were mentioned in the Bible (especially The Old
Testament). For more detail on this subject refer to the book "Jesus Christ
and the Macedonians" by A. Donski (Centre for Cultural Initiative, Stip,
Macedonia, 2000).
4) For information about the possible Macedonian descent of St. Luke refer
to: "The Apostle Paul's Visit to Philippi, History of Philippi", by Dr.
Clint Arnold and his class at Talbot Theological Seminary, The Biblelands
Project (copyright 1999 by Musterseed Media Inc., website:
www.musterseed.net). The likelyhood that St. Luke was from a Macedonian
origin is indicated even in the world renown encyclopaedia Microsoft Encarta
98 (Encyclopaedia Deluxe Edition, USA, 1998; "Luke Saint"). More detail on
this topic can be found in the book "Jesus Christ and the Macedonians" by A.
Donski (Centre for Cultural Initiative, Stip, Macedonia, 2000).
5) Refers to the members of the Macedonian dynasty that ruled Byzantine in
the period IX to XI century AD. These tzars exercised a certain number of
customs that were practised by the ancient Macedonian tzars, and they even
promoted the Phalanx as a distinct component of the Byzantine army. A lot of
historians believe these tzars carried the genes of the ancient Macedonians.
6) For extensive detail about the contribution of the ancient Macedonians to
the world civilisation refer to "Contribution of the ancient Macedonians to
the World Civilisation" by A. Donski, that will become available by December
2001.
7) The fact that the ancient Macedonians were a separate nation has already
been widely accepted and indications in this regard can be found in a number
of encyclopedias. As an illustration, following infromation has been taken
from the encyclopedia Encarta (title: Europe): "Macedonia, to the north of
Greece, had not originally been part of the Greek wold". This veracity has
been confirmed by a row of international researchers and experts on ancient
Macedonia, and the list of names is very long.
8) Arrian: "The Campaigns of Alexander", translated by Aubrey De Selincourt,
Penguin Books, USA, 1987, page 119.
9) Homer (VIII BC) identified Veneti as people from Asia Minor, whereas
Herodotus (V BC) identified them as Balkan people under the name of Eneti.
10) In support of the fact that Veneti were the same people as the "Slavs"
there are number of testimonials. The German historian Jordanes (VI AD)
wrote that Veneti and Slavs are the same people. The most convincing
arguments regarding the common identity of the Veneti and Slavs were
presented in the brilliant book "Veneti - First Builders of the European
Community" by Joshko Shavli, Matej Bor and Ivan Tomazich, translation in
English by Anton Skrebinc (Editions Veneti; A-1080 Wien, Bennogasse 21,
Austria; Co-published by Anton Skrebinc; Boswell, British Columbia, Canada).
In this book on over 500 pages are presented indisputable evidences from
various fields and it is demonstrated that the Veneti and Slavs had
identical cultures, i.e. they were the same people.
11) This is written in chapter 51 in Plutarch's biography of Alexander The
Great (Macedonian Translation, Plutarh: "Aleksandar Makedonski", Skopje,
1994, p. 70).
12) Anthony by Plutarch, translated by John Dryden
13) Quintus Curtius Rufus: "Istorija na Aleksandar Makednoski", translation
by Dr. Ljubinka Basotova (Skopje, 1998, p. 272)
14) Borza Eugen: "In the Shadow of Olimpus, The Emergence of Macedon"
(Princeton University Press, Princeton, New Jersey, ISBN 0-691-05549-1, USA,
1990, p. 92)
15) The statement of Demosteness can be found in any publication of his
speeches called Philippics.
16) For detailed explanation regarding the meaning of the term "barbarians"
in the ancient world refer to Synthia Syndor Slowikowski: "Sport and Culture
in the Ancient Macedonian Society" (The Pennsylvania State University, 1998,
p. 30)
17) Synthia Syndor Slowikowski: "Sport and Culture in the Ancient Macedonian
Society" (The Pennsylvania State University, 1998, p. 30)
18) Thycidides 2,8,1. Isocrates 5.108 and Clement of Alexandria 6.2.17
19) In relation to the presence of borrowed Greek words in the ancient
Macedonian language more information can be found in the article "The
Ancient Macedonians And Their Language" (Council for Research into
South-Eastern Europe of the Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts, Skopje,
1993). Also in Eugen Borza: "The Shadow of Olimpus, The Emergence of
Macedon" (Princeton University Press, Princeton, New Jersey, ISBN
0-691-05549-1, USA, 1990, p. 93)
20) N.G.L Hammond: "The Macedonian State, Origins, Institutions and History"
published in the United States by Oxford University Press Inc, New York,
1989, ISBN 0-19-814927-1, p. 6)
21) Makedonia - Sbornik ot dokumenti i materiali (BAN, Sofia, 1978, p. 44)
22) This word is supplied by Dr. Nade Proeva in her book: "Studii za
Antickite Makednoci" (Skopje, 1997, p. 58). She asserted that the word
"phoinikos" was used for the first time in the period of Alexander The
Great.
23) Explanation regarding pronunciation of the letter "v" instead of "f" in
the ancient Macedonian and Brygian language is available in the book:
"Brigi" by Dr. Eleonora Petrova (Muzej na Makedonija, Skopje, 1996, p. 207)
24) Andonovski Hristo: "Juzna Makedonija od antickite do denesnite
Makedonci" (Skopje, 1995)
25) Gjorgji Pop-Atnasov: "Biblijata za Makedonija i Makedoncite" (Menora,
Skopje, 1995, p. 57)
26) N.G.L. Hammond: "The Macedonian State, Origins, Institutions and
History" published in the United States by Oxford University Press Inc, New
York, 1989, ISBN 0-19-814927-1, p. 6)
27) This was the name of the capital of ancient Macedonia
28) and 29) These two ancient Macedonian words were supplied by Dr. Nade in
her book: "Studii za Antickite Makednoci" (Skopje, 1997)
30) A number of authors have written about the Brygians as the main
ingredient in the ethno-genesis of the ancient Macedonians. Results of the
research carried out by some of these authors have been conveyed in the
study "Brigi" by Dr. Eleonora Petrova (Muzej na Makedonija, Skopje, 1996, on
various occasions throughout the book). Detailed elaboration regarding the
domination of the Brygian component in the ancient Macedonians is available
in the book "Studii za Antickite Makedonci" by Dr. Nade Proeva (Skopje,
1997)
31) All given names presented herewith have been obtained for use from the
above mention books by Dr. Nade Proeva and Dr. Eleonora Petrova, unless
specified otherwise. That most of these names are present in todays'
Macedonian onomasticon see at Dr. Ljubica Stankovska "Rechnik na lichnite
iminja na Makedoncite" (Skopje, 1992). In this book more that 30.000 names
from Macedonian middle age and modern age onomasticon are presented.
32) The name "Craterus" has been recorded by the ancient biographers of
Alexander The Great
33) "Caranus" was the name of a legendary Macedonian sovereign
34) This name has been taken on from the edition "Macedonia acta
archeologica", br. 11, 1987-1989 (Skopje, 1990). This was the name of a
local Macedonian tribal leader from IV BC.
35) The name "Glaukas" has been recorded by the biographers of Alexander The
Great
36) Miladinovci: "Zbornik" (Skopje, 1983, chapter: "Sopstveni narodni
iminja", p. 506)
37) The name "Rumi" is taken from Aleksandar Matkovski's "Makednoija vo
delata na stranskite patepisci 1778-1826" (Skopje, 1992, p. 54)
38) The name "Stamenos" has been recorded by the biographers of Alexander
The Great
39) This name was taken on from the book: "Travels in Northern Greece" by
William Martin Leake, London, 1835, vol. III (Nacionalna biblioteka Pariz,
signatura J.12345-12348)
40) Quintus Curtius Rufus: "Istorija na Aleksandar Makednoski", translation
from Latin in Macedonian by Dr. Ljubinka Basotova (Skopje, 1998, p. 276)
41) The similarity between the apparel of the Phrygians and Paphlagonians
was recorded by Herodotus: "The dress of the Phrygians closely resembled the
Paphlagonian, only in a very few points differing from it"
42) Nichephore Gregoras: "Corespondance" (Paris, 1927, p. 30)
43) Prof. Angelina Markus; Also "Makedonsko Sonce" (11.07.1997, p.18)
44) For more information refer to: "Veda Slovena" by Gane Todorovski
(Makedonska Kniga, Skopje, 1979, p. 17)
45) For more information refer to: "Makedonija i makedonskata nacija" by Dr.
Blaze Ristovski (Skopje, 1995, p. 131)
46) For more information refer to: "Zivotni put Stjepana Vjerkovicha
(1821-1894)" by Ljubisha Doklestich (Zagreb, 1982, p. 304)
47) For more information refer to: "Zivotni put Stjepana Vjerkovicha
(1821-1894)" by Ljubisha Doklestich (Zagreb, 1982, p. 285)
48) For more information in relation to the Albanian history and the work of
Mazovski, Pulevski, Chuparov and others refer to: "Makedonija i makedonskata
nacija" by Dr. Blaze Ristovski (Skopje, 1995, on various occasions
throughout the book)
previous page
Author: Prof. Aleksandar DONSKI
"Etnogenetskite razliki pomegju Makedoncite i Bugarite"
"Isus Hristos i Makedoncite"
"Udelot na Makedoncite vo svetskata ciovilizacija"
contact: ado...@mt.net.mk
http://www.mymacedonia.net/ancient/simmilarites2.htm
For fair use only.
June R Harton
"Linkestanec" <pel...@donotbother.net> wrote in message
news:SWOT9.21047$jM5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> Simmilarites Between Ancient Maedonian and Todays' Macedonian
> Culture(Linguistics and Onomastics)
>
> Author: Prof. Aleksandar DONSKI
Bwahahhahahahhahhahahhahhahahahhahahahhahahaa
Here, Bulgarian, read some real education:
I will sum it up for you...you will never be a Macedonian, Bulgarian,
as Macedonian is only Greek and Fyrom is not even the area where
the Macedonian Greeks lived...that region is completely within
northern Greece.
For fair use only:
The inhabitants of this area (Macedonians) were one of the most ancient
Greek tribes. Their closest relatives were the Thessalians and particularly
the Magnesians, with whom they shared Aeolian ancestry. The language they
spoke was among the oldest forms of Greek, and it had affinities
with the Aeolian, Arcado-Cypriot and Mycenean dialects. The religion
of the Madeconians was that of the other Greeks, and their myths and
traditions were those found throughout the Greek world (Wells,
The Outline of History, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, Glimpses of
World History).
"The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their
traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to testify."
John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the
Great", The Modern Library, New Uork, 1913
"It seems more and more certain that the Macedonians were a Greek tribe
related to the Dorians. However, as they stayed high up in the distant
north, they could not participate in the progress of civilization of the
Greek people that migrated southward...".
Ul. Wilcken, Alexandre le Grand, op. cit., p. 33:
"A strong Illyrian and Thracian influence can thus be recognized in
Macedonian speech and manners. These however are only trifles compared
with the Greek character of the Macedonian nationality; for example the
names of the true full blooded Macedonians, especially of the princes
and nobles, are purely Greek in their formation and sounds."
Ulrich Wilcken, "Alexander the Great", Norton & Company, 1967
"And yet when we take into account the political conditions, religion and
morals of the Macedonians, our conviction is strengthened that they were a
Greek race akin to the Dorians."
Ulrich Wilcken, "Alexander the Great", Norton publications, 1967.
"the majority of the new generation of historians ......
agree, and rightly so, that the Macedonians were Greeks".
Herman Bengtson, Griechische Geschichte4, Muenchen 1969, p. 305:
"That the Macedonians were of Greek stock seems certain. The claim
made by the Argead dynasty to be of Argive descent may be no more
than a generally accepted myth, but Macedonian proper names, such as
Ptolemaios or Philippos, are good Greek names, and the names of the
Macedonian months, although differed from those of Athens or Sparta,
were also Greek. The language spoken by the Macedonians, which
Greeks of the classical period found intelligible, appears to have been
a primitive north-west Greek dialect,
much influenced by the languages of the neighboring barbarians."
J.R. Hamilton, "Alexander the Great", London, 1973
"These plains would be the envy of any Greek visitor who crossed their
southern border by the narrow vale of Tempe and the foot of Mount Olympus.
He would pass the frontier post of Heraclion, town of Heracles, and stop at
the harbour town of Dion, named after the Greek god Zeus, ancestor of the
Macedonian kings, and site of a yearly nine-day festival of the arts in
honour of Zeus and the nine Greek Muses. There he would walk through city
gates in a wall of brick, down the paved length of a sacred way, between the
theatre, gymnasiums and a temple with Doric pillars: suitably, the nearby
villages were linked with the myth of Orpheus, the famous bard of Greek
legend. He was still in a world of Greek gods and sacrifices, of Greek plays
and Greek language, though the natives might speak Greek with a northern
accent which hardened 'ch' into 'g'. 'th' into 'd' and pronounced King
Philip as 'Bilip'. Bearing on up the coast, he would find the plain no less
abundant and the towns more defiantly Greek."
Robin Lane Fox, "Alexander the Great", The Dial Press Publications, 1974
"In favour of the Greek identity of the Macedonians is what we know of their
language: the place-names, names of the months and personal names,
which are without exception Greek in roots and form. This suggests that
they did not merely use Greek as a lingua franca, but spoke it as natives
(though with a local accent which turns Philip into Bilip, for example).
The Macedonians' own traditions derived their royal house from one
Argeas, son of Macedon, son of Zeus, and asserted that a new dynasty,
the Temenids, had its origin in the sixth century from emigrants from Argos
in Greece, the first of these kings was Perdiccas. This tradition became
a most important part of the cultural identity of Macedon. It enabled
Alexander I to compete at the Olympic Games (which only true Hellenes
were allowed to do).... The Macedonians, then, were racially Greek."
Richard Stoneman, "Alexander the Great", Routiledge, London and
New York, 1977
"Modern scholarship, after many generations of argument, now almost
unanimously recognizes them as Greeks, a branch of the Dorians and
"Northwest Greeks" who, after long residence in the north Pindus region,
migrated eastward. The Macedonian language has not survived in any written
text, but the names of individuals, places, gods, months and the like
suggest strongly that it was a Greek dialect. Macedonians institutes, both
secular and religious, had marked Hellenic characteristics, and legends
identify or link the people with the Dorians."
John V.A. Fine, "The Ancient Greeks a Critical History", Harvard University
Press, Massachusetts, 1983
Taken from N. G. L. Hammond's "The Macedonian State:
The Origins, Institution and History," Calrendon Press, Oxford,
1989, pp. 413.pp. 12-14:"
4. The Language of the Macedonians.
What language did these 'Macedones' speak? The name itself
is Greek in root and in ethnic termination. It probably means
'highlanders,' and it is comparable to Greek tribal names such
as 'Orestai' amd 'Oreitai,' meaning 'mountain-men.' A reputedly
earlier variant, 'Maketai,' has the same root, which means 'high,'
as in the Greek adjective 'makednos' or the noun mekos.'
The genealogy of eponymous ancestors which Hesiod
recorded (p. 3 above) has a bearing on the question of Greek
speech. First, Hesiod made Macedon a brother of Magnes;
as we know from inscriptions that the Magnetes spoke the Aeolic
dialect of the Greek language, we have a predisposition to
suppose that the Macedones spoke the Aeolic dialect.
Secondly, Hesiod made Macedon and Magnes first cousins
of Hellen's three sons -- Dorus, Xouthus, and Aeolus -- who
were the founders of three dialects of Greek speech, namely
Doric, Ionic, and Aeolic. Hesiod would not have recored this
relationship, unless he had believed, probably in the seventh
century, that the Macedones were a Greek-speaking people.
The next evidence comes from Persia. At the turn of the
sixth century the Persians described the tribute-paying peoples
of their province in Europe, and one of them was the
'yauna takabara,' which meant the 'Greeks wearing the hat.'
[27] There were Greeks in Greek city-states here
and there in the province, but they were of various origins
and not distinguished by a common hat, the 'kausia.'
We conclude that the Persians believed the Macedonians to
be speakers of Greek. Finally, in the latter part of the fifth
century a Greek historian, Hellanicus, visited Macedonia and
modified Hesiod's genealogy by bringing Macedon and his
descendants firmly into the Aeolic branch of the Greek-speaking
family.
[28] Hesiod, Persia, Hellanicus had no motive for making
a false statement about the language of the Macedonians,
who were then an obscure and not a powerful people.
Their independent testimonies should be accepted as
conclusive. That, however, is not the opinion of most scholars.
They disregard or fail to assess the evidence which I have cited,
[29] and they turn instead to 'Macedonian' words and names,
or/and to literary references. Philologists have studied words
which have been cited as 'Macedonian' in ancient lexica and
glossaries, and they have come to no certain conclusion; for
some of the words are clearly Greek, and some are clearly not
Greek. That is not surprising; for as the territory of the
Macedonians expanded, they overlaid and lived with peoples
who spoke Illyrian, Paeonian, Thracian and Phrygian, and they
certainly borrowed words from them which excited the authors
of lexica and glossaries. The philological studies result in a
verdict, in my opinion, of 'non liquet.' [30]
The toponyms of the Macedonian homeland are
the most significant. Nearly all of them are Greek: Pieria, Lebaea,
Heracleum, Dium, Petra, Leibethra, Aegae, Aegydium, Acesae,
Acesamenae; the rivers Helicon, Aeson, Leucus, Baphyras, Sardon,
Elpe'u's, Mitys; lake Ascuris and the region Lapathus.
The mountain names Olympus and Titarium may be pre-Greek;
Edessa, the earlier name for the place where Aegae was founded,
and its river Ascordus were Phrygian. [31]
The deities worshipped by the Macedones and the names
which they gave to the months were predominantly Greek,
and there is no doubt that these were not borrowings.
To Greek literary writers before the Hellenistic period the
Macedonians were 'barbarians.' The term referred to their way
of life and their institutions, which were those of the 'ethne' and
not of the city-state, and it did not refer to their speech. We can
see this in the case of Epirus. There Thucydides called the tribes
'barbarians.' But inscriptions found in Epirus have shown conclusively
that the Epirote tribes in Thucydides' lifetime were speaking Greek
and used names which were Greek. [32]
In the following century 'barbarian' was only one of the abusive
terms applied by Demosthenes to Philip of Macedon and his people.[33]
In passages which refer to the Macedonian soldiers of Alexander
the Great and the early successors there are mentions of
a Macedonian dialect, such as was likely to have been spoken in the
original Macedonian homeland. On one occassion Alexander
'called out to his guardsmen in Macedonian ('Makedonisti'),
as this [viz. the use of 'Macedonian'] was a signal ('symbolon') that
there was a serious riot.' Normally Alexander and his soldiers
spoke standard Greek, the 'koine,' and that was what the Persians
who were to fight alongside the Macedonians were taught. So the
order 'in Macedonian' was unique, in that all other orders were in
the 'koine.' [34] it is satisfactorily explained as an order in broad
dialect, just as in the Highland Regiment a special order for a particular
purpose could be given in broad Scots by a Scottish officer who
usually spoke the King's English.The use of this dialect among
themselves was a characteristic of the Macedonian soldiers
(rather that the officers) of the King's Army. This point is made
clear in the report -- not in itself dependable -- of the trial of
a Macedonian officer before an Assembly of Macedonians, in
which the officer (Philotas) was mocked for not speaking in dialect. [35]
In 321 when a non-Macedonian general, Eumenes, wanted
to make contact with a hostile group of Macedonian infantrymen,
he sent a Macedonian to speak to them in the Macedonian dialect,
in order to win their confidence. Subsequently, when they and the
other Macdonian soldiers were serving with Eumenes, they
expresed their affection for him by hailing him in the Macedonian dialect
('Makedonisti'). [36] He was to be one of themselves. As Curtius
observed, 'not a man among the Macedonians could bear to part
with a jot of his ancestral customs.' The use of this dialect was one
way in which the Macedonians expressed their apartness from the
world of the Greek city-states. [27] See J. M. Balcer in 'Historia' 37
(1988) 7.[28] FGrH 4 F 74 [29] Most recently E. Badian in
Barr-Sharrar 33-51 disregards the evidence as set out
in e.g. HM 2.39-54, when it goes against his view that the
Macedonians (whom he does not define) spoke a language other
than Greek. [30] The matter is dicussed at some length
in HM 2. 39-54 with reference especially to O. Hoffmann,
'Die Makedonen, ihre Sprache und ihre Volkstun' (Goettingen, 1906)
and J. Kalleris, Les Anciens Macedoniens I (Athens, 1954);
see also Kalleris II and R. A. Crossland in the CAH 3.1.843ff.
[31] For Edessa see HM 1.165 and for the Phrygians
in Macedonia 407-14. Olympus occurs as a Phrygian personal
name. [32] See Hammond, 'Epirus' 419ff. and 525ff.
[33] As Badian, loc. cit. 42, rightly observes: 'this, of course,
is simple abuse.'[34] Plu. 'Alex.'51.6[35] Curtius 6.8.34-6.
[36] PSI XII 2(1951) no. 1284, Plu. Eun.14.11.
Badian, loc. cit. 41 and 50 n.66, discusses the former
and not the latter, which hardly bears out his theory that
Eumenes 'could not directly communicate with Macedonian
soldiers,' and presumably they with him. Badian says in his
note that he is not concerned with the argument as to whether
Macedonian was a 'dialect' or 'a language.' Such an argument
seems to me to be at the heart of the matter. We have a
similar problem in regard to Epirus, where some had thought
the language of the people was Illyrian. In Plu.'Pyrrh.'1.3
reference was made to 'the local 'phone,'' which to me means
'dialect' of Greek; it is so in this instance because Plutarch
is saying that Achilles was called 'in the local 'phone' Aspestos.'
The word 'Aspestos' elsewhere was peculiar to Greek epic,
but it survived in Epirus in normal speech. It is of course
a Greek and not an Illyrian word. See Hammond, 'Epirus' 525ff.,
for the Greek being the language of central Epirus
in the fifth century B.C. "
"That the Macedonians and their kings did in fact
speak a dialect of Greek and bore Greek names
may be regarded nowadays as certain."
Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia",
Univ. of California Press, LA, 1990 Pg 3
Who Are The Macedonians 1995
Pgs 15/16
"Also, following Alexander's death, the rapid spread of Koine
based on Attic Greek made any distinction between Greek
and the language of 'the Macedonians' an academic one which
opposing camps continue to fight over. That Greek so easily
subsumed the local Macedonian dialect would indicate that
the dialect in Philip's time was not far removed from Greek
after all."
A.B. Boworth, "Conquest and Empire", Cambridge Univ. Press, 1998,
Canto Edition
"Alexander ruled the world as his father had ruled Macedon, concentrating
power in his own hands and office to his Companions. In nationality the
Companions remained overwhemingly Hellenic."
---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of
surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there
was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument
over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy,
but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There
is no evidence for a different "Macedonian" language that cannot be
as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.
"Ancient allegations that the Macedonians were non-Greeks all had their
origin in Athens at the time of the struggle with Philip II. Then as now,
political struggle created the prejudice. The orator Aischines once even
found it necessary, in order to counteract the prejudice vigorously fomented
by his opponents, to defend Philip on this issue and describe him at a
meeting of the Athenian Popular Assembly as being 'Entirely Greek'.
Demosthenes' allegations were lent on appearance of credibility by the fact,
apparent to every observer, that the life-style of the Macedonians, being
determined by specific geographical and historical conditions, was different
from that of a Greek city-state. This alien way of life was, however, common
to western Greeks of Epeiros, Akarnania and Aitolia, as well as to the
Macedonians, and their fundamental Greek nationality was never doubted.
Only as a consequence of the political disagreement with Macedonia was
the issue raised at all."
Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", Univ. of California Press,
LA, 1990
"The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most
easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia
but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their
monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia,
suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in
principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle
the Illyrian problem at its roots."
Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", California University Press,
1990.
"A new force began to make itself felt on the northern fringe of Hellas,
the kingdom of Macedon. Some people -Macedonians for the most
part- claimed it to be a Greek state and part of the Greek world. The
Macedonians spoke Greek and attended Hellenic festivals; their kings claimed
to be descented from Greek families- from Achilles, the great Achaean hero
of the Iliad, no less."
J.M. Roberts, "A Short History of the World", Oxford University Press,
New York, 1993
"Philip was born a Greek of the most aristocratic, indeed of divine,
descent... Philip was both a Greek and a Macedonian, even as
Demosthenes was a Greek and an Athenian...The Macedonians
over whom Philip was to rule were an outlying family member
of the Greek-speaking peoples."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Duckworth & Co. Ltd.,
London, 1994
"As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the
same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for
service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At
one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were
doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were
speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was
Greek-speaking throughout."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London,
1994
MACEDON
"Outlying Greek kingdom north of Thessaly, inland from the Thermaic Gulf,
on the northwest Aegean coast...Its name came from an ancient Greek
word meaning highlanders...Macedon was inhabited by various peoples
of Dorian-Greek, Illyrian, and Thracian descent, who spoke a Greek dialect
and worshipped Greek gods...Unification and modernization came gradually,
at the hands of kings of Dorian descent."
David Sacks, "A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World.", Oxford, 1995
"Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers,
but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis
and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians
spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into
their territory, they were essentially Greeks."
Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece",
Penguin Publ., 1996
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
June R Harton
"Linkestanec" <pel...@donotbother.net> wrote in message
news:SWOT9.21047$jM5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
Btw, I laughed when you posted this because all it's statements are
false! Would you like me to show you how each are factually false?
Say the word.
:)
June R Harton
Hilarious!
You folks must be real uneducated to fall for idiocies like that!
Let me help you get some real data, Bulgarian:
Subject: FR:LYNGOS RE: ETHNIC ORIGINS OF THE MAKEDONIANS
Date: 2/27/01 9:00 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: LYNGOS
Message-id: <20010227120031...@ng-fl1.aol.com>
Good morning to all
Few years back,a German linguist by the name Otto Hoffman wrote a book with
the
title "Makedonians, their language and their Ethnicity".
Hoffman analyzed the paradoxical or idiomatic words (calling them
languages),which past grammaticals,lexicographers and more in general
everyone
engaged around the Hellenic language had noted them as "worthy to be
analyzed"
in Makedonia.
To begin with,all those people were believing that the Makedonian language
was
an Hellenic dialect, and exactly this is the reason mentioning certain of
its
peculiarities, had they believe that the Makedonian language was alien to
that
Hellenic one, there was not a reason mentioning those Makedonian paradoxical
and/or idiomatic "languages".
According to the same Hoffman his conclusions after "supervising" other
peoples
work are the following:
""And now after supervising the ancient Makedonian linguistic thesaurus we
are
posting the decisive question,if what is adding to the Makedonian language
its
character,are the hellenic or the barbarian elements of it,the responce can
not
be of any doubts.From the 39 "languages" that according to Gustav Mayer
their
form was "completely alien" has been proven after this research of mine,that
10
of them are clearly Hellenic,with 4 more possibly dialectical forms of
common
hellenic words,so from the entire collection are remaining only 15 words
appearing to be justifiable or at least suspected of anti-hellenic
origins.Adding to those 15, few others which with regards their vocals could
be
hellenic,without till now being confirmed as such,then their number, in
comparison to the number of pure hellenic ones in the Makedonian language,is
so
small that the GENERAL HELLENIC CHARACTER OF THE MAKEDONIAN LINGUISTIC
TREASURE
CAN NOT BE DOUBTED.
The important thing about the Makedonian language is the fact that the alien
and foreign to the Hellenic language words in it, are limited in a very
narrow
circle of objects and thoughts.
Prominent as groups are those of names for plants,animals,foods,drinks,war
and
fighting items and various names of dressing items.
However in the Makedonian language there is absolutely not one barbarian
word
having relation to the governing of the society,military or confering
justice.
There is the worshipping of the ancient god Savadion,same as the one for the
ancient Hellenic Gods,after which the Makedonian named the months of the
year.
In Hellas we had the meeting of two civilizations, from which the superior
one,
that Hellenic represented by the Kings and the nobles became the base for
the
Makedonian society.
Was this Hellenic civilization a pure Makedonian one or it was imported in
the
country from outside?
Are the Hellenic words in the Makedonian language pure Makedonians or they
were
accepted as loans from the Hellenic?
If such loaning happened, it must have happened in very old times.
The already mentioned ""languages"" are not derived from the Attick dialect
or
the "Common-Koinh" Hellenic one.
Not only this, but they are not connected with the Attick dialect that was
"imported" by Phillip and Alexander in their society and political
organization.
Those words are formed in an extremely ancient manner,they are to be found
just
in Makedonia and they are very dialectical.
Such statement is especially important.
If somehow we can define and connect those Makedonian "languages" with a
specific hellenic dialect,then we have a solid base for their definition.
The fact that the ancient Makedonian history is guarded with distrust might
be
somehow justified to partial ignorance of that early Makedonian history.
However once in Makedonia time arrived for the reigning of Alexander the 1st
and Archelaos, the mood has been changed.
There is the first connection-contact between Amyntas the 1st and Hippias an
Hellene (Herodotus 5-92g) in the land of Anthemus (Herodotus
5-94).......""Before he went,Amyntas of Macedon offered him Anthemus,and the
Thessalians Iolcus..............."
Next comes the close relation of Alexander the 1st and 2nd, Macedon's and
Amyntas' sons and the Hellenes.One participates in the Olympic games (
Herodotus 5-22) Amyntas' son favors the Hellenes in their wars against the
Persians.(Herodotus 9-44,45).
Alexander, Amyntas' son becomes in 480 B.C honorable citizen,console and
beneficiary (Herodotus 8-136) ".....secondly,becaue he was well aware that
Alexander's friendship with Athens was an official relation,and was backed
by
deeds.""..............
Perdikkas is ally and friend of the Athenians (Thukididis 1-57),
"..............and Perdikkas son of Alexandros,king of Macedon,formerly an
ally
and friend,had been turned into an enemy.""...........
Archelaos not only he maintains friendly political relations with Athens but
he
is also inviting Athenian poets in his court.Euripedes and Agathon spend in
his
court the last years of their lives, and as is the case with the SKOPIANS
and
the Bulgars these days and their so-called different languages, no
translators
were in need to translate from Greek to Makedonian.
Those Makedonian idiomatism-"languages" are proving one thing and one
alone.That neither Athens or the Ionian cities brought to the Makedonians
the
Hellenic language,since in those dialects clearly exist the influence of the
Thessalian dialect!
But in that case the Makedonian linguistic treasure should be accepted not
only
as a loan from the Thessalians, but an early one as well,since once in
Makedonia the Athenian dialect arrived, the Thessalian one couldn't be
consider
as competitor.
With regards the names of the Royal House of the Argeades Hoffman is
stating:
"" None of the names of the Royal House of the Argeades is of Barbarian
origins,the roots of the words and their formation is HELLENIC IN
EVERYTHING.Loan from the Hellenic Myth might be the name Orestes and
possibly
the name Menelaos""
Farther down Hoffman considers 40 names of official Makedonians found on an
inscription from 423 B.C adding:
""In final analysis it is possible that the name VYRGINON KRASTWNOS is of
Thracian origins,while independent remains the name DIRVE.....ALL the other
names are BEAUTIFULL,CLEAR,HELLENIC CONSTRUCTIONS and only two of them
NEOPTOLEMOS and MELEAGROS could have been loans from the HELLENIC MYTHOLOGY.
Hoffman considers the names of the populations of upper or Western Makedonia
(my birth-place) including the
Orestians(Kastoria),Eordians(Ptolemais-Arnissa),Tymfaians(Pindos-Konitsa),
Elimiotians(Kozani),and Lyngestians(Florina-Monastiri.
He considers and analyzes the names of the King's body-guards,of the
generals,of the administrative employees,of the leaders of the Makedonian
cavalry,the leaders of the name and army,and those of many other common
people
of the 5th and 4th and even later centuries.
His conclusions?
""THE NAMES OF THE GENUINE MAKEDONIANS AND THOSE BORN OF MAKEDONIAN PARENTS
,ESPECIALLY THE NAMES OF THE ELITIC CLASS AND NOBLES,IN THEIR FORMATION AND
PHONOLOGY ARE PURELY HELLENIC."
And he continues,,,
""The general Hellenic character of the Makedonians linguistic treasure can
not
be disputed even in case some of them might be loans from the Hellenic
Mythology or from non-hellenic myths or for the better pre-hellenic myths
(Teytamos-Marsyas-Seilinos....).
The reason?Both Hellenic mythology and pre-hellenic SUCH,contributed many of
their names not only in the Makedonian but as well in the general hellenic
vocabulary of names.
Names that in their phonology and the laws governing their formations are
clearly different than those Thracians and Illyrians,and they can not even
be
used as "in between" those and the hellenic ones.
So.........if someone not agreeing with the Hellenism of the
Makedonians,than
naturally has to accept the fact that during the 6th and 5th centuries
B.C,the
Makedonians dropped their ......Makedonian names and
they...........introduced
the Hellenic ones substituting theirs!
However,if their names were their original ones and in such a way since the
names are clearly hellenic and the Makedonians were of pure Hellenic
origins,one MUST conclude that the hellenic linguistic treasure,was not
taken
as a loan from the Thessalians,but it was their own ETHNIC inheritance!
The Hellenic civilization and the Hellenic language did not migrated from
Thessaly to alien nations,tribes,and races within the Makedonian lands.
It was (and all of you out there know my "theory") an AUTOCHTHONOUS miracle
that happened in the land called Hellas.
According to our Academian, Keramopoulos, hellenic tribes ARRIVED in
Makedonia,conquered it and transformed it into an hellenic country.He
writes:
""Today the historians are accepting the fact that the Hellenes as Aryans
arrived from the North,while the Makedonians were the last of the Northern
tribes that arrived all the way to Crete,and their linguistic or dialectic
relation to the Thessalian language is generated because of the closeness of
the two people rather than because of submission to each other.The
Makedonian
language in such a way was a Hellenic dialect"".
With all my respect to Keramopoulos,allow me to disagree with the historians
thinking in such way.
I will accept however the notions by Ulrich Wilcken,Karl Julius Beloch,Fritz
Geyer, and especially Helmut Berve once professor and later chancellor of
the
University of Lipsia(Leipzig) Germany.
According to Berve in his book "Hellenic History" volume 1,1931:
""..........New Hellenic tribes(phylla) rushed out in the beginning of the
12th
century B.C from the lands of Epirus,where the ancient and famous oracle of
DODONA is testimony to old Hellenic
settlements-colonizations............From
Epirus and the close by lands,after they were pushed away by the
Illyrians,Hellenic tribes-phylla arrived,one to the Adriatic towards
South,another towards the East in Makedonia and thru Thessaly and Boeotia
all
the way
to mountain Kithaeron.......""
This in my opinion regarding the DESCENT of the Hellenic race-tribes,towards
the main Hellenic area of the Penisula and Makedonia.They DESCENTED from
their
mountains into the Makedonian plains and later farther to the South.
An ARYAN ARRIVAL of Hellenes from the East ponders myriad of
unsolved-unanswered questions.
IF those Hellenes arrived from the East then what was their earlier name?
IF they arrived from the East than what happened to the AUTOCHTHNOUS people
living in Hellas calling themselves by the name Hellenes since cration
time,since Deucalion's times?
IF the Hellenes arrived from the East than by accepting the name Hellenes
from
the local populations that they were called as such already, they must have
been an inferior race!
IF the Hellenes had arrived from the East bringing with them their language,
than what happened to the lands and the populations which they met during
their
migration?
And so on.........and so on..................
The Hellenic tribes were born exactly where the core of Makedonia was and is
today. (Lyngos' notion).In those close,tight,impassable,steep,mountain
ranges
and plateaus,where the individual Hellenic tribes had plenty of protection
and
food for their survival.It was in the Pindus range,in its close little
valleys,around the lakes of Prespa,Kastoria,Meliki,Axrida,Ioannina where
those
AUTOCHTHONOUS tribes created HELLENISM and EXPORTED it to the South.
Karl Julius Beloch in his book "Hellenic History" explains how those
HELLENES
descending from Makedonia conquered the lands to the South of Olympus
mountain,one after another,killing or subjecting non-Hellenic populations
and those non-Aryan pre-hellenic ones, from various South-Eastern
countries,Palestine,Phoenecia and Egypt I should add...............
He concludes on page 93 volume 1,1:
""......IN SUCH A WAY THE PUREST ETHNICALLY HELLENIC TRIBE-RACE MUST HAVE
BEEN
THE MAKEDONIANS,AFTER THEM THE EPIROTANS AND THE THESSALIANS WHILE IN
STEREA-MAINLAND AND ESPECIALLY IN PELOPONNISOS THE INTERMEDDLING OF FOREIGN
ELEMENTS MUST HAVE BEEN MUCH GREATER,NOT ONLY BECAUSE WHEN THE HELLENES
ARRIVED
IN THERE THEY WERE ALREADY INTERMARRIED WITH THE EARLIER LOCAL
POPULATIONS,BUT
ALSO BECAUSE THE SOUTH PART OF THE PENINSULA DURING THE ARRIVAL OF THE
HELLENES HAD ALREADY THEIR OWN CIVILIZATION AND MORE CONDENCE POPULATION"".
You got that, you SKOPIANS and GRAIKYLIANS out there?
The PUREST ETHNICALLY HELLENIC RACE MUST HAVE BEEN THE MAKEDONIAN ONE!
I brought you so far some powerfull testimonies with regards the fact that
the
Makedonians were Hellenes.
No just any kind of them,but THE Hellenes,the "creme de creme" the
"anthogala"
among the Hellenic tribes.
On different ocassions I wrote with regards the meaning of geographic Hellas
and Hellenism thru time.
What used to be the oracle of Dodona became the entire Hellenic mainland,it
became Peloponnisos too and it became Southern Italy,it became the Illyricum
theme and it became Thrace,it became the land between the Adriatic and the
black sea it became Magna Grecia it became the "Red Apple tree".
What used to be Helle's worshippers and Hellen's children became the
Hellenic
Nations.
The fact that the Makedonians as Karl Julius Beloch,Georg Busolt,Fritz
Geyer,Ulrich Wilcken,and so many others are telling us, were the major of
those
tribes of the Hellenic Nation that remained in the beginning of the Hellenic
descent, in the mountainous Northern areas of Hellas WITHOUT participating
or
partially participating in the activities of the other Hellenic tribes to
the
South, and especially in the development of the Hellenic
civilization,is of non importance.
The Makedonians were guarding the entire Hellas,they were protecting the
entire
Hellas,they were safeguarding what their brothers were building to the
South.
Without them no Hellenic miracle could have ever happened.
The representation of Hellas,by Sparta,Athens,Corinth and the various
city-states arrived to an end.
It was time for the ones protecting Hellas for so many eons,to receive the
honor of representing her.
What more powerfull testimony to the Hellenism of the Makedonians,than the
fact
that the world was conquered by Alexander in the name of Hellas.
What more powerfull testimony than the fact that preciselly that Hellenism
was
communicated,transmitted,inplanted to the Barbarians in the Hellenic
language?
What more powerfull testimony than the fact that for the FULL Hellenization
in
Asia and Africa were used Makedonian soldiers the same way the Romans used
them
eons later for the Romanization of the Balkans!
When Phillip back in 360 B.C became the viceroy-supervisor of Perdikkas-his
brother-son,it was time for the MAKEDONIAN POLITEIA to accept the
responcibilities of Hellenism from the cities/states.
The mountainous tribes of Pindus,were coming back in full power to bring the
torch of Hellenism to the savages.
IF those Makedonian people were not ETHNICALLY Hellenes,if those people
Hellenized the East, than......
WHEN did they BECOME Hellenes in order to teach Hellenism to the Asians?
WHEN did they drop THEIR NON Hellenic civilization in order to be subjected
to
a new one?
WHAT happened to such Non Hellenic Makedonian civilization?
Such ABILITY of ADAPTATION overnight should be something UNIQUE,as Geyer
notes.
Can you imagine?Can you imagine those SUPER-PROUD Makedonians,droping THEIR
civilization,THEIR Gods,THEIR langauge,THEIR names,THEIR alphabet,THEIR
philosophy,THEIR everything,and in a MINIMUM spam of time accept EVERYTHING
HELLENIC?
Think about it!
The Truth is that the Makedonians were part of the Hellenic tribes.The truth
is
that the Makedonians were Hellenes.The truth is that the Makedonians were
more
Hellenes than the other Hellenes.
They were like the Prussians of Frederick the 2nd "The Great",being first
and
foremost Prussians and then.........Germans.
Can one find more Germans than those Prussians?
Can one find more Hellenes than those Makedonians?
Alexander the Great took the torch of Hellenism to the East.Without him is
questionable if Parthenon would be standing in Acropolis today.Is debatable
if
the world would have known about Hellenic civilization the way is knowing it
today!
Alexander used his old soldiers in order to complete the education and
transform the Barbarian world.The Hellenic "paideia",the hellenic "idea" the
hellenic "substance" was transported to the deeps of Asia and to the rest of
the world thanks to them.
The Seleukides and the Ptolemies didn't like Alexander's plans with regards
the
politics of "absorption".
And yet..themselves,,,by creating more and more new colonies and
settlements,not only attempt,and pursuit such "absorption" by they also
became
participants.
They move in those hellenistic colonies and settlements not just Hellenic
mercenaries,not only other Hellenes from the rest of Hellas,but in order to
make SURE the FULL Hellenization of such colonies and settelments,they
placed
Makedonians from the old land in those new places.
Those, were Alexander's Makedonians given to him by his fatherPhillip,the
GREATEST among the GREAT ones.
Do you remember them?I wrote about them some time ago.They were given to
Alexander by his father Phillip alright.Do you remember when they revolted
against Alexander?Do you remember the sons of Makedonia at Opis?Do you
remember
Arrian?
""...............A horrified silence ensued,and Alexander stepped once again
on
to the rostrum and addressed his troops in these words:
'My countrymen,you are sick for home-so be it! I shall make no attempt to
check
your longing to return.Go whither you will;I shall not hinder you.But,if go
you
must,there is one thing I would have you understand-what I have done for
you,and in what coin you will have repaid me.
'First I will speak of my father Phillip,as it is my duty to do.Phillip
found
you A TRIBE OF IMPOVERISHED VAGABONDS,MOST OF YOU DRESSED IN SKINS,FEEDING A
FEW SHEEP ON THE HILLS AND FIGHTING,FEEBLY ENOUGH, TO KEEP THEM FROM YOUR
NEIGHBOURS-THRACIANS AND TRIBALLIANS AND ILLYRIANS.HE GAVE YOU CLOAKS TO
WEAR
INSTEAD OF SKINS;HE BROUGHT YOU DOWN FROM THE HILLS INTO PLAINS;HE TAUGHT
YOU
TO FIGHT ON EQUAL TERMS WITH THE ENEMY ON YOUR BORDERS,TILL YOU KNEW
THAT YOUR SAFETY LAY NOT,AS ONCE,IN YOUR MOUNTAIN STRONGHOLDS,BUT IN YOUR
OWN
VALOUR......................................""
Ah........those "creme de creme" of the Makedonians..........the "anthogala"
of
the Hellenes,the sheep-herders of the Makedonian mountains.Dressed in
skins,living in the mountainous strongholds.Those ancient VELAOCHOS-VELAOCHI
(from ve(h)la-belua-ohos=owner of sheep),the ones that time took away from
their name the sounds --E-- and --O-- in order to have it written as.....V L
A
C H O S--V L A C H I.The sons of Hellas,the Hellenic Vlachs.
And now...........you know the rest of the story.
P.S.
Im my above four segments with regards the ETHNIC ORIGINS OF THE
MAKEDONIANS,I
used as help original and/or translated texts by Otto Hoffman,Antonios
Keramopoulos,Karl Julius Beloch,Georg Busolt,Sokratis Liakos,Fritz
Geyer,Helmut
Berve,Ulrich Wilcken,Thukididis,Herodotus,Robert Graves,Arrian not in this
order.............:)))))
Translations, where not in english,and over 99% it wasn't,is mine,all
mistakes
mine too.
Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
tommy
-ski Says a lot.
> http://www.mymacedonia.net/ancient/simmilarites.htm
Says even more. A fascist Tito site.
For your information we have disproven everything in the article in the
past. Learn Macedonian history in depth. Go to the sources. Read a book, not
just an article. It is about your identity, right? Isn't you're identity
important enough to read a whole book about Macedonian history? Even
God-forbid a non-partisan book?
How about going to Macedonian musuems to see how Greek the Macedonians were.
All I want to say is an informed Fyromian becomes a Bulgarian. So why don't
you become informed.
June R Harton
"Linkestanec" <pel...@donotbother.net> wrote in message
news:07PT9.21053$jM5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> Culture(Linguistics and Onomastics)
Hahahahahahaha...soo funny, Bulgarian!
Here:
"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Yannis" <mak...@vip.gr>
Newsgroups:
alt.culture.fyrom,alt.culture.macedonia-is-greek,alt.languages.macedonian,al
t.news.fyrom,alt.news.macedonia
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Look under Macedonian alphabet SLAVOSKOPIANS !!
http://saussure.linguistlist.org/cfdocs/new-website/LL-WorkingDirs/forms/lan
gs/L
LDescription.cfm?code=XMAC
Language Description
Language Name: Ancient Macedonian
Alternate Name(s): Macedonian
Once Spoken in: Greece Macedonia
Linguist List Code: XMAC
Family: Indo-European
Subgroup: Macedonian
Subgrouping Code: IEGB
Brief Description: The ancient language of the Macedonian kingdom in N.
Greece
and modern Macedonia during the later 1st millennium BC. Survived until the
early 1st millennium AD. Not to be confused with the modern Macedonian
language, which is a close relative of the Slavic Bulgarian.
I repeat : " NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH THE MODERN SLAVOSKOPIAN LANGUAGE WHICH
IS A CLOSE RELATIVE OF THE SLAVIC BULGARIAN"
But then only pathetic, mindless people could use the same name for two
different languages isn't it ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece"
June R Harton
:)
What nonsense, Bulgarian!
Here, wake up from that nonsense:
For fair use only
http://45.1911encyclopedia.org/S/SL/SLAVS.htm
"In spite of the vast area which the Slays have occupied in historic times
there is no reason to claim for them before the migrations a wider homeland
than that above defined beyond the Carpathians; given favourable
circumstances a 'nation multiplies so fast (e.g. the Anglo-Saxons in the
last hundred and twenty years) that we can set no limits to the area that a
cornparatively small race could cover in the course of four centuries.
Therefore the mere necessity of providing them with ~scestors sufficiently
numerous does not compel us to seek for the' Slays among any of the populous
nations of the ancient world. Various investigators have seen Slays in
Scythians, Sarmatians, Thracians, Illyrians, and in fact in almost all the
barbarous tribes which have been mentioned in the east of Europe, but we can
refer most of such tribes to their real affinities much better than the
ancients, and at any rate we can be sure that none of these were Slays.
There is no evidence that the Slays made any considerable migration from
their first home until the 1st century A.D. Their first Transcarpathian seat
lay singularly remote from the knowledge of the Mediterranean peoples.
Herodotus (iv. 17, 51, 105) does seem to mention the Slays under the name of
Neuri (qv), at least the Neuri on the upper waters of the Dnčstr are in the
right place for Slays, and their lycanthropy suggests modern Slavonic
superstitions; so we are justified in equating Neuri and Slays, though we
have no direct statement of their identity. Other classical writers down to
and including Strabo tell us nothing of eastern Europe beyond the immediate
neighbourhood of the Euxine.
Pliny (N.H. iv. 97) is the first to give the Slays a name which can leave us
in no doubt. He speaks of the Vened-i (ci. Tacitus, Germania, 46, Veneti);
Ptolemy (Geog. iii. 5. 7, 8) calls them Venedae and puts them along the
Vistula and by the Venedic gulf, by which he seems to mean the Gulf of
Danzig: he also speaks of the Venedic mountains to the south of the sources
of the Vistula, that is, probably the northern Carpathians. The name Venedae
is clearly Wend, the name that the Germans have always applied to the Slays.
Its meaning is unknown. It has been the cause of much confusion because of
the Armorican Veneti, the Paphlagonian Enetae, and above all the
EnetaeVenetae at the head of the Adriatic. Enthusiasts have set all of these
down as Slays, and the last with some show of reason, as nowadays we have
Slovenes just north of Venice. However, inscriptions in the Venetian
language are sufficient to prove that it was not Slavonic. Other names in
Ptolemy which almost certainly denote Slavonic tribes are the Veltae on the
Baltic,
ancestors of the Wiltzi, a division of the Polabs (q.v.), the Sulani and the
Saboci, whose name is a Slavonic translation of the Transmontani of another
source.
Unless we are to conjecture Stlavani for Ptolemy's Stavani, or to insist on
the resemblance of his Suobeni to Slovene, the name Slav first occurs in
Pseudo-Caesarius (Dialogues, ii. 110; Migne, P.G. xxxviii. 985, early 6th
century), but the earliest definite account of them under that name is given
by Jordanes (Getica, V. 34, 35, C. 550 A.D.): Dada . . . ad coronae speciem
arduis Alpibus emunita, -iuxta quorum sinistrum latus, qui in aquilone
vergit, ab ortu Vistulae fiuminis per immensa spatia Venetharum populosa
natio consedit. Quorum nomina licet nunc per varias familias et loca
mutentur, principaliter tamen Sciaveni el Antes nominantur. Sciaveni a
civitate Novietunense (Noviodunum, Isak~a on the Danube Delta) . . . usque
ad Danastrum el in boream Viscla tenus com-morantur . . . A flIes vero, qui
.s'unt eorum fortissi-mi, qua Ponlicum mare curvatur a Danastro exienduntur
usq-ue a4 Danaprum; ci. xxiii. 119, where these tribes are said to form
pitrt of the dominions of Hermanrich. Sclaveni, or something like it, has
been the regular name for the Slays from that day to this. The native form
is Slovéne; in some cases, &g. in modern Russian under foreign influence, we
have an a instead of the o. The combination si was difficult to the Greeks
and Romans and they inserted t, th or most commonly c, which continues to
crop up. So too in Arabic Saqaliba, Saqldb. The name has been derived from
slovo, a word, or slava, glory, either directly or through the -slav which
forms the second element in so many Slavonic proper names, but no
explanation is satisfactory. The word " slave " and its cognates in most
European languages date from the timc when the Germans supplied the
slave-markets of Europe with Slavonic captives. The name Antes we find
applied to the Eastern Slays by Jordanes; it may be another form of Wend.
Antae is used by Procopius (B.G. iii. 14). He likewise distinguishes them
from the Sclaveni, but says that both spoke the same language and both were
formerly called Spori, which has been identified with Serb, the racial name
now surviving in Lusatia and Servia. Elsewhere he speaks of the measureless
tribes of the Antae; this appellation is used by the Byzantines until the
middle of the 7th century.
The sudden appearance in the 6th-century writers of definite names for the
Slays and their divisions means that by then the race had made itself
familiar to the Graeco-Roman world, that it had spread well beyond its
original narrow limits, and had some time before come into contact with
civilisation. This may have been going on since the 1st century AD., and
evidence of it has been seen in the southward movement of the Costoboci into
northern Dacia (Ptolemy) and of the Carpi to the Danube (AD. 200), but their
Slavonic character is not established. A few ancient names on the Danube,
notably that of the river Tsierna (Cerna, black), have a Slavonic look, but
a coincidence is quite possible. The gradual spread of the Slays was masked
by the wholesale migrations of the Goths, who for two centuries lorded it
over the Slays, at first on the Vistula and then in south' Russia. We hear
more of their movements because they were more immediately threatening for
the Empire. In dealing with Ptolemy's location of the Goths and Slays we
must regard the former as superimposed upon the latter and occupying the
same territories. This dominatiOn of the Goths was of enormous importance in
the development of the Slays. By this we may explain the presence of a large
number of Germanic loan words common to all the Slavonic languages, many of
them words of cultural significance. "King, penny, house, loaf, earring" all
appear in Slavonic; the words must have come from the Goths and prove their
strong influence, although the things must have been familiar before. On the
other hand "plough "is said to be Slavonic, but that is not certain. When
the Huns succeeded the Goths as masters of central Europe, they probably
made the Slays supply them with contingents. Indeed their easy victory may
have been due to the dissatisfaction of the Slays. Priscbs (Muller, F.H.G.
iy. p. 69, cf. Jord. Get. xlix. 258) in his account of the camp of Attila
mentions words which may be Slavonic, but have also been explained from
German. After the fall of
the flunnish power the Eastern Goths and Gepidae pressed southwards and
westwards to the conquest of the Empire, and the Lombards and Heruli
followed in their tracks. When next we get a view of northern Germany we
find it full of Slays, e.g. from Procopius (B.G. ii. 15) we know that they
held the Mark of Brandenburg by 512; but this settlement was effected
without attracting the attention of any contemporary writer. Modern
historians seem to adopt their attitude to the process according to their
vew of the Slays; German writers, in their contempt for the Slays, mostly
deny the possibility of their having forced German tribes to leave their
homes, and assume that the riches of southern Europe attracted the latter so
that they willingly gave up their barren northern plains; most Slavonic
authors have taken the same view in accordance with the idealistic picture
of the peaceful, kindly, democratic Slays who 'contrast so favourably with
the savage Germans and their war-lords; but of late they have realised that
their ancestors were no more peaceful than any one else, and have wished to
put down to warlike pressure from the Slays all the southward movements of
the German tribes, to whom no choice was left but to try to break through
the Roman defences. A reasonable view is that the expansion of the Eastern
Germans in the last centuries B.C. was made at the expense of the Slays,
who, while no more peaceful than the Germans, were less capable than they of
combining for successful war, so that Goths and others were dwelling among
them and lording it over them; that the mutual competitions of the Germans
drove some of these against the Empire, and when this had become weakened,
so that it invited attack, some tribes and parts of tribes moved forward
without any pressure from behind; this took away the strength of the German
element, and the Slays, not improbably under German organization, regained
the upper hand in their own lands and could even spread westwards at the
expense of the German remnant.
Almost as uncertain is the exact time when the Southern Slays began to move
towards the Balkans. If already at the time of Trajan's conquests there were
Slays in Dacia, it would account for the story in Ps. Nestor that certain
Volchi or Vlachi, i.e. Romance speakers, had conquered the Slays upon the
Danube and driven them to the Vistula, for the place that the name of Trajan
has in Slavonic tradition, and for the presence of an agricultural
population, the Sarmatae Limigantes subject to the nomad Sarmatae (q.v), on
the Theiss. In any case, we cannot say that the Slays occupied any large
parts of the Balkan Peninsula before the beginning of the 6th century, when
they appear in Byzantine history as a new terror; there seems to have been
an invasion in the time of Justin, and another followed in 527 (Procopius,
B.G. ~ 40 and HISt. Arc. 18). At the same time as the Slays, the Huns, the
Bulgars, and after 558 the Avars, were also making invasions from the same
direction, The first and last disappeared like all nomads, but the Bulgars,
making themselves lords of one section of the Slays, gave it their own name.
By 584 the Slays had overrun all Greece, and were the worst western
neighbours of the Eastern Empire. Hence the directions how to deal with
Slays in the Strategicum of the emperor Maurice (c. 6oo) and the Tactics of
Leo.
By the end of the following century they were permanently settled throughout
the whole of the Balkan Peninsula. (For their further history see SERVIA,
BULGARIA, BOSNIA, DALMATIA, CROATIA-SLAVONIA.) These Southern Slays, though
divided into nationalities, are closely akin to one another. There is no
reason to think the Serbo-Croats an intrusive wedge, although Constantine
Porphyrogenitus (De 0dm. Imp. 30-33) speaks of their coming from the north
in the time of Heraclius-the middle of the 7th century. Their dialects shade
in.to one another, and there is no trace of any influence of the
North-Western group. Constantine was probably led astray by the occurrence
of the same tribal names in different parts of the Slavonic world. Meanwhile
the Southern Slays were cut off from the rest of the race by the foundation
in the 6th century of the Avar kingdom in Pannonia, and after its
destruction in the 7th, by the spread of the Germans south-eastwards, and
finally by the incursion of another Asiatic horde, that of the Magyars, who
have maintained themselves in the midst o~ Slays for a thousand years. Their
conquests were made chiefly at the expense of the Slovenes and the Slovaks,
and from their languages they have borrowed many words in forms which have
now disappeared."
Yannis the Macedonian
> Simmilarites Between Ancient Maedonian and Todays' Macedonian
> Culture(Linguistics and Onomastics)
> Author: Prof.
> Aleksandar DONSKI
> The Latin historian Quintus Curtius Rufus (I AD) also
> testified that the ancient Macedonians spoke a
> separate, Macedonian language. He described the trial of the
> Macedonian Philotas for contriving a plot
> to murder Alexander The Great. The plot was discovered and
> Philotas was publicly interrogated by
> Alexander. Describing this event, Quintus Curtius Rufus
> clearly stated that the Macedonians spoke
> separate, Macedonian language13).
This passage of Donski shows clearly that he is just a SlavoSkopian
propagandist. Because no self respected person would write the above.
That passages of Curtius clearly shows the dialectical relation of the
Macedonian speech and the Greek language. The passage is :
Curtius 6.9.35
"Praeter Macedones plerique adsunt, quos facilius quae dicam percepturos
arbitror, si eadem lingua fuero usus qua tu egisti; non ob aliud, credo,
quam ut oratio tua intelligi posset a pluribus".
And the translation
"Besides ( apart) the Macedonians there are many present who, I think, will
more
easily understand what I shall say if I use the same language which you have
employed, for no other reason, I suppose, than in order that you speech
might be understood by the greater number."
The crucial words are "more easily"
If Macedonian was a foreign language then Filotas would say to Alexander: "Are
you stupid ? Who is going to understand me ?? " Filotas also implies that
Macedonian was really understandable by other Greeks ( but not so easily ).
Ladies and gentlemen this is the notion of dialect: Two speeches are dialects
if
they are the not the same language but also mutually understandable.
Btw, the header is true. Today's Macedonians had the Greek same dialect as the
ancient ones and the same culture and of course the same destiny: To spread
Greek Language and Civilization to the World. Otherwise, could they be called
Macedonians ??
But of course Donski means SlavoSkopians in his stupid article.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
sMocK
news:3e1fd796$0$21614$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au:
That is all you can say tommy? Are you a linguist? A historian? Can you refute the comparaisons Donski
makes? Why don't you wanna accept that there may be a different truth than the propaganda you have
been surounded with? Open your eyes tommy, an informed Grkoman becomes a Macedonian!
Yannis the Macedonian
> >> Author: Prof. Aleksandar DONSKI
> >> http://www.mymacedonia.net/ancient/simmilarites.htm
.....................................
> That is all you can say tommy? Are you a linguist? A historian? Can you
refute
> the comparaisons Donski makes? Why don't you wanna accept that there may
> be a different truth than the propaganda you have been surounded with? Open
> your eyes tommy, an informed Grkoman becomes a Macedonian!
Why that Donski did not say where he found those "Macedonian" names or words?
Are they maybe medieval words and names ?
Why did not refer to common ancient Macedonian names ? Why he avoid to compare
these names to Greek names and toponyms ?
Did you ever think that your SlavoSkopian language's Greek words are a loan
because your language is a Bulgarian dialect ?
Look and listen: Macedonians spread Greek Language and Civilization to the
World !! Does this mean anything to you ?
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
June R Harton
"sMocK" <sM...@isp.com> wrote in message
news:A6CdnTkkg9h...@giganews.com...
> That is all you can say tommy? Are you a linguist? A historian? Can you
refute the comparaisons Donski
> makes?
Completely, troll.
>Why don't you wanna accept that there may be a different truth than the
propaganda you have
> been surounded with? Open your eyes tommy, an informed Grkoman becomes a
Macedonian!
Try as you might above, every one of your statements and their
inherent untruths are completely exposed by the following, troll.
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
And, as if that wasn't enough your falsehoods are also exposed
by the following:
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm
And don't forget the following which also expose you as trying to
deceive those that do not know the real history of the area:
Here is the real area of Macedonia:
http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/regions1.html
http://www.unet.com.mk/oldmacedonianmaps/stmapi/mapa3.jpg
http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Maps/mapSeq_Map01.html
http://crystalinks.com/mapgreeceancient.gif
And the real name of the area above Greece inhabited by the West
Bulgarians:
http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm
And as for the people in the real Macedonia region, you will have to argue
with all the historians....as all the historians state the exact facts that
I am
posting below...so, troll, it is you who is lying here and so shall you
be known:
As far as the Greek speakers in the real Macedonia in say 1911,
read the following:
" Encyclopedia Britania 1911
© 2002 by PageWise, Inc.
MACEDONIA
BIBLI0GRAPHY.—Jewitt and Hope, Corporation Plaic and Insignia of
Office,
&c. (2 vols., 1895); J. R. Garstin, Irish State and Civic Maces, &c.
(1898); J. Paton, Scottish Historyand Life (1902); J. H. Buck, Old
Plate
(1903), pp. 124—140; Cripps, Old English Plate (9th ed., 1906),
pp.
394—404; E. Alfred Jones, Old Plate at the Tower of London
(1908); ed., “
Some Historic Silver Maces,” Burlington Magazine (Dec. 1908).
(E. A. J.)
snip
In Salonica, Serres, Kavala, Castoria, and
other towns in southern Macedonia the Hellenic element is strong; in
the northern towns it is insignIficant, except at Melnik, which is
almost exclusively Greek. The Greek rural population extends from the
Thessalian frontier to Castoria and Verria (Beroea); it occupies the
whole Chalcidian peninsula and both banks of the lower Strymon from
Serres to the sea, and from Nigrita on the west to Pravishta on the
east; there are also numerous Greek villages in the Kavala district.
The Mahommedan Greeks, known as Valachides, occupy a
considerable tract in the upper Bistritza valley near Grevena and
Liapsista.
Also
The Slavs ...., but their great immigration took place in the 6th and
7th centuries. They overran .........driving ....the latinized population
of Macedonia into the highland districts, such as Pindus, Agrapha
and Olympus."
And, thus, the Latinized real Upper Macedonian Greeks are the Greek
Vlach then!
It should also be mentioned that yes indeed national leanings in that
time period was NOT solely determined by language. The false
Bulgarian numbers included Bulgarian speakers that were Moslem
who wanted nothing more than to stay Turkish and included Bulgarian speakers
who adamantly fought against the Bulgarians procaliming
their Hellenic identity, having had it previously subsumed by the
Bulgarian church in the area for many centuries on and off.
Also Bulgarian numbers in 'Macedonia' falsely did not count the
Greeks in real area of Southern Macedonia, as they invariable in
their scam only referred to the area that Russia had previously tried
to create into a Greater Bulgaria (in order to gain access to the
Aegean area).
For real numbers in the area read the following:
According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904:
Greeks Bulgarians
Vilaeti of Thessaloniki 373,227 207,317
Vilaeti of Monastiri 261,283 178,412
Santzaki of Scopje 13,452 172,735
According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in the area
of Macedonia lived:
423,000 or 41.71% Muslims (Turks and Albanians)
259,000 or 27.30% Greeks
178,000 or 18.81% Bulgarians
13,150 or 1.39% Serbs
73,000 or 7.72% others"
And figures presented by Italian ethnologist Amadori Virgili.
THESSALONIKI VILAYET 1913
Servia Sandjak
GREEKS 119,466
MOSLEMS 80,702
WALLACHIANS 1,460
JEWS 43
MISCELLANEOUS 3
Salonica Sandjak
GREEKS 233,508
BULGARIANS 70,096
MOSLEMS 189,600
WALLACHIANS 3,928
JEWS 65,730
MISCELLANEOUS 2,314
Serres Sandjak
GREEKS 96,513
BULGARIANS 98,586
MOSLEMS 122,303
WALLACHIANS 980
JEWS 3,005
Drama Sandjak
GREEKS 47,852
BULGARIANS 2,120
MOSLEMS 124,100
Total
GREEKS 497,339
BULGARIANS 170,802
MOSLEMS 516,705
WALLACHIANS 6,368
JEWS 68,778
MISCELLANEOUS 2,317
And real history of the area:
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/1/0,5716,66071+1,00.html
For fair use only
ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA
Rumelia
Turkish RUMELI, the former Ottoman possessions in the Balkans. The name
means "land of the Romans"--i.e., Byzantines. The Turks first began to make
conquests in the Balkans in the mid-14th century. The land was divided into
fiefs of various size that were administered by cavalry officers; local
notables who converted to Islam also shared in the administration. The
administrative configuration of Rumelia changed frequently until 1864, when
the unit of administrative division became defined as the province, or
vilayet, which was in turn divided into sancak (subprovinces). The Danube
vilayet was formed first, in 1864, followed by those of Janina (Ioannina)
and Salonika (Thessaloníki, in Greece) in 1867. Under the Treaty of Berlin
(1878), the Danube vilayet formed the independent state of Bulgaria under
Ottoman suzerainty; southern Bulgaria formed the autonomous province of
Eastern Rumelia with its capital at Philippopoli (Plovdiv); and western
Rumelia was divided into the Edirne, Salonika, and Monastir ils (provinces).
In 1885 Bulgaria annexed Eastern Rumelia, and by the Treaty of Bucharest
(1913), Monastir was ceded to Serbia and Salonika to Greece; only Edirne
remained under Ottoman rule.
In the 15th and 16th centuries Rumelia functioned as a reservoir of the
devsirme (levy of Christian boys), who held the highest posts in the
Ottoman army and government. Rumelia was also a centre of Ottoman Islamic
culture, which flourished in the religious schools (medreses) and mosques in
Üsküb, Istip (Stip), Prizren, Pristina, Monastir, and Edirne. Islamic mystic
brotherhoods found large followings in Bulgaria, Albania,
and Bosnia-Herzegovina.
The false propaganda that you posted is part of the Fyromian scam.
It is completely false. When the Ottoman Turks were driven out of
the real area of ancient Macedonia by the Macedonian and other
Greeks in 1912/13 the area was called Macedonia by the Greeks
and all of the world from that time.
Greece formed the Directorate of Macedonia in 1913, the first
official use of the name Macedonia in the territory of Macedonia
since the disappearance of the Roman diocese.
http://truth.macedonia.gr/maps.html
"After the violent turmoil of the Balkan Wars, all was peaceful and quiet,
at least according to the report District Director of Langadhas had sent to
the prefect of Thessaloniki. And yet that same year (1914), the Ottoman
General Consulate of Salonika was protesting to the GOVERNOR GENERAL OF
MACEDONIA that a number of atrocities had been
committed against Muslims in the Langadhas district." pp.164
Anastasia N. Karakasidou, "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood", Chicago, 1997
For those interested in historical details, the name of the first Governor
of Macedonia was Constantinos Raktivan who was placed in office by the Greek
gvt. in 1913.
http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc4.html
http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc9.html
http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc23.html
So, troll, you may continue to deceive yourself but don't expect
to deceive anyone else.
:)
tommy
June R Harton
"Yannis the Macedonian" <mak...@vip.gr> wrote in message
news:avp857$6op$2...@usenet.otenet.gr...
Good response, Yanni! You completely obliterated their false statements!
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
......The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
Yannis the Macedonian
..........................................................
> makes? Why don't you wanna accept that there may be a different truth than
> the propaganda you have been surounded with? Open your eyes tommy, an
> informed Grkoman becomes a Macedonian!
YEAAAAAAAAAA !!
An informed people becomes Macedonian and not SlavoSkopian.
So please SlavoSkopian guys, open your eyes.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece