Frank Sinatra
Greg Gioia
I think Sinatra is waaaay overrated. He was second fiddle to Jack Leonard,
a much more talented singer, until the mob stepped in and gave Sinatra a
push. On talent alone Sinatra would have never made it. My opinion of
course. What do you all think?
--
"Being a Mac user is like Being a Navy Seal: a small, elite group of
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Jim Murphy
the cited author.]
In article <partypro-2507990456310001@adsl-216-103-86-
189.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net>, part...@autobahn.org says...
> Do you consider this blasphemy?
Yes....
Seriously, I think while Sinatra obviously benefited from his mob
associations(and they benefited from their association with him) it isn't
really accurate that they "gave him a push". There is some speculation
that they may have had some influence on his release from his original
Dorsey contract, but I don't think that they had much to do with his
subsequent success. Certainly, if they were involved his career would
have never hit the skids to the degree it did prior to his appearance in
"From Here To Eternity". Up until the 1960's, Sinatra's fame and success
ebbed and flowed a number of times.
As far as there being there being a number of "technically better"
singers than Sinatra, I don't think this is inaccurate. Sinatra himself
would likely have acknowledged this (he considered Vic Damone and Tony
Bennett to be his superiors on a technical level, among others--possibly
Jack Leonard, whom he held in extremely high regard). It's no secret,
though, that there has always been more to success in the entertainment
industry than technical ability at your chosen discipline. Sinatra had
charisma, presence, and did a good job "marketing" himself. He caught
breaks along the way, like everyone else who meets with success in the
fickle entertainment field, but few can correctly be attributed to mob
involvement. The man had a way with a song that defies mere technical
singing ability. With the arguable exception of the release from his
Dorsey contract, I have a hard time thinking of anything he achieved in
his career that he wouldn't have done on his own.
If you haven't done so already, I'd suggest you read Will Friedwald's
excellent book "Sinatra! The Song Is You". It's an exhaustive analysis
of Sinatra's musical body of work, and a very entertaining read. It's
not at all dry music theory--I can't read a note of music myself and I
thoroughly enjoyed it.
I will agree with you that Jack Leonard is *extremely* underrated, but I
certainly don't think that Sinatra is overrated at all.
JRM
Martin Kelly
bell.net>, Greg Gioia <part...@autobahn.org> writes
>Do you consider this blasphemy?
>
>a much more talented singer, until the mob stepped in and gave Sinatra a
>push. On talent alone Sinatra would have never made it. My opinion of
>course. What do you all think?
>
I don't just mean his threads. What about Watertown ?
Talent is many things and to make an experimental - by the standards of
the time and the Vegas values of the time - 'concept' album, at a stage
when most of his contemporaries would happily stay on the golf course in
between cranking out the 'hits', was pure talent.
--
Martin Kelly
Greg Gioia
never had the chance.
In article <wGfP4FAy...@dosse.demon.co.uk>, Martin Kelly
<MAR...@dosse.demon.co.uk> wrote:
--
Jim Murphy
189.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net>, part...@autobahn.org says...
> Of course if the mob hadn't freed him from his Dorsey contract he'd have
> never had the chance.
>
>
Actually, he would have still had the chance. He just wouldn't have
gotten rich doing it. Dorsey didn't have a problem letting Frank go out
on his on, because he'd be making money off of him regardless. When
Sinatra joined Dorsey's band he signed a very nasty contract which
promised Dorsey a healthy chunk of his future earnings. Obviously when
Sinatra began to meet with some success he wasn't happy about this
arrangement and wanted out.
It's also important to keep in mind that there are a number of competing
"theories" about the behind the scenes machinations to get Sinatra out of
his Dorsey contract. The one that is heard as frequently as the "mob
influence" theory (and actually makes more sense)involves Columbia
Records chairman Manie Sacks and a tough guy show biz lawyer named Henry
Jaffe. According to this story, Jaffe put the screws to Dorsey by
suggesting that unless Sinatra was released from his contract that Jaffe
would see to it that Dorsey would suffer a de facto "blacklist" from the
NBC radio airwaves. Jaffe also represented a bunch of powerful radio
people and probably could have exerted this kind of influence. At least
Dorsey thought so, and he released him from the contract. Since this
theory is advanced by a number of biographers and writers that are
otherwise not particularly kind to Sinatra, it has a ring of truth.
For what it's worth, I also think the Jaffe scenario is more likely for
the simple reason that neither the New York or Chicago mob (the outfits
that Sinatra was most intimate with) had anything directly to gain
financially from Frank's ability to sign with Columbia. The outfit guys
probably never saw a dollar from the sale of a Frank Sinatra record--they
made their money when he performed in the nightclubs (and later the
casinos, like the Sands) that they had financial interest in.
Even if every penny they paid to Sinatra to perform went to Dorsey,
they'd still make a killing on the sale of booze, gambling (legal or
illegal), etc. Furthermore, Sinatra really didn't become intimately
acquainted with any mobsters of sufficient power to strongarm Tommy
Dorsey until he became tight with Chicago mob boss Sam "Momo" Giancanna
in the early 50's. The only outfit guy he was really tight with before
Momo was Skinny D'amato, who ran the 500 Club in Atlantic City
(incidentally, he also figured into the lives of Dean Martin and Jerry
Lewis and their rise to stardom--it was at his club they first worked as
a team). Growing up as an Italian in NYC (especially with a politically
active mom) and performing in east coast nightclub certainly brought him
into contact with mobsters, but he wasn't a big enough fish at the time
for any one of sufficient power to exert influence on Dorsey--one of
America's biggest stars at the time--even if they could.
I'm the last person to try and whitewash Sinatra's mob involvement--he
was certainly tight with a number of them during his life and they would
do "favors" for one another. I just don't think it's correct to credit
Sinatra's success with anything other than his own talent. It's
impossible for me to listen to his version of "Fly Me To The Moon" or
"I've Got You Under My Skin" and consider him the least bit overrated.
--
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Jim Murphy
says...
> >
> Sinatra's strength was his impeccable taste in choosing his material and
> I don't just mean his threads. What about Watertown ?
> Talent is many things and to make an experimental - by the standards of
> the time and the Vegas values of the time - 'concept' album, at a stage
> when most of his contemporaries would happily stay on the golf course in
> between cranking out the 'hits', was pure talent.
>
Sinatra took a lot of artistic chances that a lot of his contemporaries
wouldn't have done. His work with Brazillian guitarist Antonio Carlos
Jobim is just amazing--probably some of the best stuff he ever did--and
definitely something that a lot of performers wouldn't have had the guts
to try. Another good antidote for any thoughts that Sinatra is
"overrated". From a technical standpoint, it may have been the best
singing he ever recorded. He was extremely pleased with how he sounded
on the Jobim recordings--for the rest of his life he'd frequently play
"Wave" just to hear how excellent he sounds hitting the low notes in that
song.