WHAAT IS THIS???
RAKESH RADHAKRISHNAN
disguise it? If so how successful have you been? Why do
think its necessary?
If not, why?
This is just a survey. Infact to avoid a flame war I shall say,
I have an accent. I do not disguise it. Reason being it is way
too difficult to disguise it. Requires too much effort. I think
this effort need be taken only while talking to Profs.
Welcome to other views.
RAAGESH
Narcissus
>How many Kerelaites on this net have accents?
nO aidiya.
>Do you try to
>disguise it?
yes OLways.
>If so how successful have you been?
nOt at OL. ai miserabLi fail everi taim!
>Why do
>think its necessary?
adarwais dees pyoopiL vil tees mi.
>
>If not, why?
nOt aappLikkabiL
mathai chundattu
RAKESH RADHAKRISHNAN
UGHRAN RESPONSE!!!
ind...@ac.dal.ca
> How many Kerelaites on this net have accents?
I have. But not always, only when I am sspeaking!
.ravi(real)
Wonko, the sane
fuNNy
this reminds me of a joke..
i was in kerala recently and I came to know that my cousin's english teacher,
who expalins all the "difficult words" in the text, had told them that the
tamarind was "a tropical tree".
simbly
wonko
P.S: I was, therefore, not at all surprised that he also did not understand the
meaning of "pride" in the anthology he taught for poetry ,entitled
"a pride of poets".
Narcissus
The "malayali accent" is a common theme for jokers. We enjoy the
articles about malayalis and their peculiar way of pronouncing other
languages. Though some would disagree, There are examples of malayalis
being humiliated for their peculiar pronunciation of english. Probably
nowhere else, but in india it is a fact.
English is the language in which the malayali accent is most prominent.
Though learned since childhood as a second language, malayalis almost
always speak english with a very pronounced accent. Some authors would
even argue that it is because of the narrow-mindedness of the malayalis
that they dont learn the proper way of speaking english!
In my opinion, the structure of the malayalam language has a lot to do
with the malayali accent. Since the number of different letters in
malayalam is far more compared to that in a language like english we can
say that malayalam is more phonetic. The phonetic quality of a language
depends on the freedom we have in unambiguously representing the sounds
used in the language by its script. Malayalam has more
letters and each sound in it is represented by a unique letter compared
to, the representation of several sounds with a single combination of
letters in a language like english. This may be one reason for the wrong
accent that most of us have when speaking english.
A similar explanation can be given to why indians as a whole have shady
accents while speaking english though, many of them think that they speak
perfect english.
mathai chundattu
RAKESH RADHAKRISHNAN
An additional point is that it is generally easy for Malayalees
for picking up various sounds in other languages quickly.
Although they may still have accents, it is generally better
than some one with the 'True Accent' to pronounce sounds in
these languages.
I do not give a dammm. Evenmaarku oru chukkum cheyaan patilya.
Malyalee acczent iss the besst acczent. Thaat is oll I haave to
saay.
As long as the idea is gotten across, there is no reason for
panic. In case people do make fun of accents, one should
retaliate by teasing them in the best means possible, as can be
inferred from their character.
Manasilayo.
RAAGESH
kai...@prema.aix.kingston.ibm.com
>
>In my opinion, the structure of the malayalam language has a lot to do
>with the malayali accent. Since the number of different letters in
>malayalam is far more compared to that in a language like english we can
>say that malayalam is more phonetic. The phonetic quality of a language
>depends on the freedom we have in unambiguously representing the sounds
>used in the language by its script. Malayalam has more
>letters and each sound in it is represented by a unique letter compared
>to, the representation of several sounds with a single combination of
>letters in a language like english. This may be one reason for the wrong
>accent that most of us have when speaking english.
>
malayalees who have an accent. Even in the United states there is Southern
accent and most of the blacks have a diffrent accent. People from the
European countries who have the same alphabets as English have a much
more prominent accent than most malyalees have. And then there is a
British accent which is totally diffrent from the American accent.
One reason that I can think of is the way we malayalees have learned
English in School and the way we used it in our conversations with
other malayalees and Indians. We were tought to pronounce a as the
first alphabet in Malyalam (aa) and O as the O in coke. But in most
contexts O is pronounced here as the first letter in the malayalm
alphabet. There are many other subtle diffrences that some body else
may be able to bring forth
>mathai chundattu
Dominic
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dominic Kailath kai...@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com
IBM KINGSTON kai...@kgnaix11.aix.kingston.ibm.com
(914)-339-6501 (home) (914)-385-5539 (work)
John Chandy
In my opinion, the structure of the malayalam language has a lot to do
with the malayali accent. Since the number of different letters in
malayalam is far more compared to that in a language like english we can
say that malayalam is more phonetic. The phonetic quality of a language
depends on the freedom we have in unambiguously representing the sounds
used in the language by its script. Malayalam has more
letters and each sound in it is represented by a unique letter compared
to, the representation of several sounds with a single combination of
letters in a language like english. This may be one reason for the wrong
accent that most of us have when speaking english.
mathai chundattu
I agree with this totally. In addition, in spite of the larger
phonetic range of Malayalam characters, it does not contain certain
common sounds in the English language.
Example, the letter 'w' is often replaced by Malayalis with 'v'.
Hence the subject heading is often more often said 'vaat is this'. I
still have a hard time convincing my mother of the difference between
'v' and 'w', just as I have a hard time distinguishing between all the
different 'd'/'t' sounds in Malayalam.
The letter 'z' does not exist in Malayalam and is replaced by 's'.
I have found it strange, though, that Indians from the north tend to
pronounce a 'z' with a a 'j' or 'ch'. (Any ideas why this is?) Hence
the 'pissa' or 'piccha' instead of 'pizza'.
Other things like the lack of 'aw' sound. Often, in English,
particularly American English, the letter 'o' is pronounced as 'aw',
whereas Malayalis always use the 'o'. Boston is Bawston, rock is
rawk, etc.
There is also the conservation of 'y' principle that malayalis tend to
observe. If you get rid of a 'y' at the beginning of a word, you got to
put it back somewhere else. A classic line that I used to hear was
'Yebby, yeat oor yeggs oo yidiot' instead of 'Ebby, eat your eggs, you
idiot'. (Hey, Ebby are you out there somewhere)
Probably the biggest problem is the I think sing-song and flowing
nature of malayalam. This forces malayalis to insert accents at the
wrong place in English words.
I don't know if this makes any sense. Its sort of hard to talk about
accents over the net - without actually describing it through actual speech.
John Chandy.
Narayana Sateesh Pillai
pronounce: mothers, fathers, brothers.
One can write it in malayalam as bruthuzhs, but instead, the
"ers" is pronounced as one would pronounce "heirs" in English!!!!
This is definitely not due to any lack of proper combinations to
produce the right sound. I can't think of any reason why it should be
pronounced that way. Can anyone else?
And why do Malayalees pronounce Ohio as Oheeyo?????? When I started
attending school in Trivandrum (I joined the 8th standard), the first
question people asked me was: where are you from? I reply Ohio. And
they would sit and think where is Ohio? Then someone would come up with
the thought: perhaps he is talking about Oheeyo!!!!! And they would
try to correct my pronunciation by telling me that the true
pronunciation is Oheeyo!!!
I can't help but add this incident also. The very first question that the
teacher asked me when I entered an Indian classroom for the very first
time was: "What's your father?". I stood there not knowing what to
answer. Am I supposed to reply that he is a human being? I did not say
anything. It later dawned upon me, after I asked a classmate that I
befriended, that she was actually trying to ask: "What's your father's
occupation?".
This has nothing to do with pronunciation, but it is an oddity of
the English. I presumed it was a relic left by the British. And
sometimes it is the gap between British English and American English which
can provide humor. Sometimes my classmates in Trivandrum would ask if they
could borrow a "rubber". I guessed they meant an eraser and not a condom!!
TATA!
Sateesh
--
| Sateesh Pillai
| 128-95, Caltech
who am I? | Pasadena, CA 91125
| (818) 564-1225
Narcissus
>>
> This is a very poor reason to attribute to since it is not only the
>malayalees who have an accent. Even in the United states there is Southern
>accent and most of the blacks have a diffrent accent. People from the
>European countries who have the same alphabets as English have a much
>more prominent accent than most malyalees have. And then there is a
>British accent which is totally diffrent from the American accent.
I agree with you. But I think there is a marked difference between the
accents of the original speakers and that of the learned speakers (e.g.
people from india). My contention was that when speakers of a highly
phonetic language speak a less phonetic one there bound to be very
prominent accent. An example is the French whose language is supposed to
be more phonetic and at the same time most sweet-sounding of all
languages. It has the same script as english. Their accent when speaking
english is easily noticeable.
> One reason that I can think of is the way we malayalees have learned
>English in School and the way we used it in our conversations with
>other malayalees and Indians. We were tought to pronounce a as the
>first alphabet in Malyalam (aa) and O as the O in coke. But in most
>contexts O is pronounced here as the first letter in the malayalm
>alphabet. There are many other subtle diffrences that some body else
>may be able to bring forth
Agreement here too. The first thing we do is finding the equivalent of
all malayalam letters in english. Then we stick with the pronunciation
of these equivalents exactly in the same way we pronounce the malayalam
letter without any concern to the context we found the combination.
Another point to note is the prolongation of the long vowels in
malayalam. Let us take the vowels 'o' and 'O'. The second one is
overstretched (beyond elastic limits!) when we learn it in school. Like
ONam (the festival) pronounced as O-ONam, aana (elephant) as aa-aana
etc. And the 'O' became the most typical of malayalai accents!
>
>Dominic
mathai chundattu
Wonko, the sane
> [deleted]
>
> In my opinion, the structure of the malayalam language has a lot to do
>
>[deleted]
> mathai chundattu
My aniyatti is a student of speech pathology and she says that the major factor
in the "mallu" accent is that malayalam and sindhi have the highest "nasality"
among Indian languages; so the speech aptterns of people whose first
language is malayalam reflects this.
sk
Shyam Kuttikkad
In article <1ql8h1...@gap.caltech.edu>, milhouse.caltech.edu!sathi (Narayana Sateesh Pillai) writes:
>And why do Malayalees pronounce Ohio as Oheeyo?????? When I started
>attending school in Trivandrum (I joined the 8th standard), the first
>question people asked me was: where are you from? I reply Ohio. And
>they would sit and think where is Ohio? Then someone would come up with
>the thought: perhaps he is talking about Oheeyo!!!!! And they would
>try to correct my pronunciation by telling me that the true
>pronunciation is Oheeyo!!!
This is not restricted to Malayalees alone. Those who are not aware of the
exact way in which the natives pronounce the names of their cities/states
try to say it as it is spelt. For example, many Indians back home would
refer to Illinois, without keeping the 's' silent. Another example is
San Jose. Non-Malayalees would similarly have a lot of difficulty in
pronouncing the names of places in Keralam, if they say it according to
it's English spelling. Eg Alappuzha, Mala.
>I can't help but add this incident also. The very first question that the
>teacher asked me when I entered an Indian classroom for the very first
>time was: "What's your father?". I stood there not knowing what to
>answer. Am I supposed to reply that he is a human being? I did not say
>anything. It later dawned upon me, after I asked a classmate that I
>befriended, that she was actually trying to ask: "What's your father's
>occupation?".
Another related feature of the English language is that it has no word
corresponding to the Malayalam word 'ethramathe', as in 'John Peterinte
ethramathe makana ?' This word is used very frequently in Malayalam. The
only approximation I can think of is 'whichth':-) Any suggestions?
>TATA!
>Sateesh
>--
> | Sateesh Pillai
> | 128-95, Caltech
>who am I? | Pasadena, CA 91125
> | (818) 564-1225
Shyam
Yesudas, Michael
>
>And why do Malayalees pronounce Ohio as Oheeyo?????? When I started
>attending school in Trivandrum (I joined the 8th standard), the first
>question people asked me was: where are you from? I reply Ohio. And
>they would sit and think where is Ohio? Then someone would come up with
>the thought: perhaps he is talking about Oheeyo!!!!! And they would
>try to correct my pronunciation by telling me that the true
>pronunciation is Oheeyo!!!
>
Name of a place is "correctly" pronounced by the people who live in that
place and, that I think is justified. If I tell you that the native way of
saying Kharagpur is "Khodogpur", Howrah is Howdah, Sealdah (Most non-Bengalis
say it as Seel-da) it is Sheaaldah, Pune (If you ask a first time person,
they will say it is Poon, or Peon or whatever,) is PooNey, it should be
surprising, right? Go to any Railway counter north of Vindhyas, and ask for
a ticket to Trivandrum (He/she will faint if you say THiruvananthapuram)
they will give you a strange look. Oh you mean Thrivendhrum, and he gives
you the ticket.
Paris, (is Pari, when most people say it I am reminded of Parry's Corner in
Madras,) Mexico, (Mehico) Houston (How-ston, which is precisely how Sam
Houston pronounced his name, and I have heard announcements that the last
call for boarding for Howston, etc..) though people here call it HUeston..
There is nothing to laugh about some non-native speaking it the wrong way.
I never understood why the Connecticut, is said the way it is. WHat happened
to the second "c"? Most state names in US are American Indian names. (Starting
from California, Texas, Arizona, Nevada, NEbraska, Wyoming, Massachussetts,
Michigan, Arkansas, Kansas, Oklahoma and so on) I sincerely have doubts as
to whether they are pronounced the same way the natives spoke. I never knew
that Arkansas is "Arkansaw" (There was a legislation in the state of Arkansas
in 1881, making the "official" pronounciation to Arkansaw)or Louisiana is
Loueeey-see-yana.
Next time try and pronounce some Korean/Japanese/Chinese place names. If not
try a lesser difficult one, African names, esp Central and West-Central names,
which have got mixed with French and German. Or else try ANy European names,
esp Swiss, French, German ones which are easier. Try any Northern European
or Russian names, and you have a mess. Forget all that, try the easiest, the
Latin and Spanish names of South America..
Well sir, that covers most of the world. I am not good enough in pronouncing
most of the place names, unless, someone from that place or someone who has
lived there explains that to me. I am not ashamed to admit that either.
I remember Sweden is written by Swedish people as "Svierge" and read as
something like 'Severte'!!
Who cares? Right? That should have been the response of the poor Mallu kids
who tried to locate Ohio in their mental world map...
No malice. Hope you get my point.
>
>TATA!
>Sateesh
>--
> | Sateesh Pillai
> | 128-95, Caltech
>who am I? | Pasadena, CA 91125
> | (818) 564-1225
Sincerely
Michael
Sasi M. Eswaran
kai...@prema.aix.kingston.ibm.com () writes:
> One reason that I can think of is the way we malayalees have learned
> English in School and the way we used it in our conversations with
> other malayalees and Indians. We were tought to pronounce a as the
> first alphabet in Malyalam (aa) and O as the O in coke. But in most
> contexts O is pronounced here as the first letter in the malayalm
> alphabet. There are many other subtle diffrences that some body else
> may be able to bring forth
> Dominic
Another problem for many Malayalees (including me) and other Indians
is the pronunciation of 'w'. In many instances, v's and w's are
interchanged. This is especially true if there are v and w in a word.
For example: MICROWAVE, WEAVING, VOWEL.
btw, this interchanging of 'v' and 'w' is not necessarily and Indian
phenomenon. Germans (and Austrians too) tend to have this problem
for they don't pronounce 'w' in German as it is pronounced in English.
Also, Germans always pronounce 'w' as 'v' and 'v' as 'f'.
One more thing: A brute majority of the people (including Chinese, Japanese
Egyptians, Germans) cannot make the sound 'th' as in birthplace, etc.
They pronounce them as birssplace.
("The standard of English has gone down these days. It is only the Indians
and the Irish who speak good English", BBC Director, 1989)
Devakumar Sreevijayan
>
>I remember Sweden is written by Swedish people as "Svierge" and read as
>something like 'Severte'!!
>
That should be 'Sverige', which brings up an interesting
story. My uncle, who lived for a while in Norway--whose inhabitants
refer to their land as 'Norge'--once made the unfortunate observation
in front of his Norwegian colleagues that 'Sverige' and 'Norge' sound
remarkably close to the words 'Swarga' and 'Naraka'. Needless to say,
the Norwegians, who apparently nurse a severe inferiority complex
vis a vis their neighbours, did not appreciate it at all.
Dev
Narayana Sateesh Pillai
Kuttikkad) writes:
> This is not restricted to Malayalees alone. Those who are not aware of
the
> exact way in which the natives pronounce the names of their
cities/states
> try to say it as it is spelt. For example, many Indians back home would
> refer to Illinois, without keeping the 's' silent. Another example is
> San Jose. Non-Malayalees would similarly have a lot of difficulty in
> pronouncing the names of places in Keralam, if they say it according to
> it's English spelling. Eg Alappuzha, Mala.
I agree that it is quite easy for a non-native speaker to
mispronounce a name. It would be very surprising for a non-native speaker
to correctly pronounce things (in ANY language other than his own).
But the point I was making about "Oheeyo" is this: It is only the
Malayalee, after hearing how it is pronounced, corrects the native speaker
and tells them: It is not Ohio, but Oheeyo!!!! Other non-natives accept
the change and try to correct themselves. But the Malayalee corrects the
native speaker!!!
> Another related feature of the English language is that it has no word
> corresponding to the Malayalam word 'ethramathe', as in 'John Peterinte
> ethramathe makana ?' This word is used very frequently in Malayalam. The
> only approximation I can think of is 'whichth':-) Any suggestions?
This is a very famous distinction between Malayalam and
English. There was a debate in the Indian Express (Cochin edition) about
the time I was studying in Pre-Degree ('79-'81). Somebody had suggested
using the word "wheth" to describe the meaning of "ethramathe".
But when I ponder about it, I get the feeling that this is
more associated with finding out the finer details, which may be
more important to the Malayalee than the Englishman. For instance, the
English man is satisfied in knowing that John is the son of Peter. The
Malayalee wants to know the details!!!
The Englishman is satisfied to know that L.B.Shastri was a prime
minister of India. The Malayalee wants to know the "ethramathe". The
dates would satisy the Englishman. Not so the Malayalee.
I guess the difference for the Malayalee is that he/she wants to
know how much importance to give John or L.B.Shastri. This is something
that is typical. When talking to someone, you have to find out about his
background before talking to him. You are not satsified with who he is!
Necessity is the mother of invention. And the Malayalee created
"ethramathe"
HONKY TONK MAN.
Oheeyo...Kolorada...Neeevaadaa...,Iyyova...
:-).....
Venky...
Yesudas, Michael
Sateesh Pillai) writes...
>
>
> I agree that it is quite easy for a non-native speaker to
>mispronounce a name. It would be very surprising for a non-native speaker
>to correctly pronounce things (in ANY language other than his own).
100 % correct!
>But the point I was making about "Oheeyo" is this: It is only the
^^^^
>Malayalee, after hearing how it is pronounced, corrects the native speaker
>and tells them: It is not Ohio, but Oheeyo!!!! Other non-natives accept
>the change and try to correct themselves. But the Malayalee corrects the
>native speaker!!!
>
No, Not the Only One. I have got corrected many times by people of different
linguistic origins, about the names of various places, though I had been
to those places and stayed there, lived there etc.
For both Hindi and Bengali, I almost qualify as a native speaker, though my
Bengali has a Hindi accent. ( Actually, there is more to it than simple
accent, my construction of sentences are more Hindi like, and the native
Bengali speaker will pick it up soon. Yet, they acepted me as a part of their
group. Full points to all Bengalis for that) For Marathi, my talking for most
part was accented too. Though 90% of the times, I knew that my grammer is
correct I was in doubt 10% of the times. (if jeans is female and skirt is
male, anybody can get confused. Machine is female, Shop is male. Yes, even
English words have gender in Marathi!!) But, I could talk to people who could
not speak any other language other than Marathi, though I still cannot follow
the village tone of Marathi completely. Urdu you can understand, but cannot
get anywhere near their sweet style of speaking with Hindi. I can understand
Tamil very well, which is 2 generations-ago-mother tongue, but I stall while
speaking it, and many people think that it is stylish to act that you have
forgotten your old mother tongue. Honestly no, I have not been enough in Tamil
Nadu to be a fluent speaker of Tamil.
Ofcourse then there are marginal languages also which you can follow if people
are kind enough to speak slowly for you. Like Konkani, Oriya, Assamese(Assamese
is a lot easier than Oriya, and Assam is Ashom according to natives) Bhojpuri,
etc..
I tried German for sometime, and dropped it. Simply because I was not getting
the pronounciation right. I simply could not get "r" howmuchever I tried.
All I remember of my old 2 years of Syriac at Mar Ivanios College is bro-de-
kalbo. (kalbo = dog, rest is your imagination)
Then there is English, after hearing it spoken in a million ways, have finally
settled to speaking the way, it damn well pleases me..
There is nothing wrong in having an accent. Only that, reduce it if you feel
that communication would be smoother. The easiest way to reduce accent is to
imitate the native speaker exactly the same way, like a parrot (Now the accent
people will fire me for the parrot accent) and the first step to reduce the
accent if you want to, is to accept to yourself that you have an accent, if
you are a non-native speaker.
> I guess the difference for the Malayalee is that he/she wants to
>know how much importance to give John or L.B.Shastri. This is something
>that is typical. When talking to someone, you have to find out about his
>background before talking to him. You are not satsified with who he is!
Sateesh, there is nothing "typical" about anyone. Each one is unique. True,
I would agree with a lot of stuff of what you said, but not this. Now when
you are saying that "malayalees are not satisfied with who someone is",
you are equally guilty of the same crime that you accuse the "Malayalees"
of.
> Necessity is the mother of invention. And the Malayalee created
>"ethramathe"
Surely, you must be joking Mr.Pillai! (He was from Caltech too, right?)
>
>TATA!
>Sateesh
>--
> | Sateesh Pillai
> | 128-95, Caltech
>who am I? | Pasadena, CA 91125
> | (818) 564-1225
Sincerely
Michael
manu
>In article <1qmtfn...@mojo.eng.umd.edu> shy...@eng.umd.edu (Shyam
>Kuttikkad) writes:
>
>> Another related feature of the English language is that it has no word
>> corresponding to the Malayalam word 'ethramathe', as in 'John Peterinte
>> ethramathe makana ?' This word is used very frequently in Malayalam. The
>> only approximation I can think of is 'whichth':-) Any suggestions?
>
>more associated with finding out the finer details, which may be
>more important to the Malayalee than the Englishman. For instance, the
>English man is satisfied in knowing that John is the son of Peter. The
>Malayalee wants to know the details!!!
so you haven't listened to BBC cricket commentary, eh?
:)
> Necessity is the mother of invention. And the Malayalee created
>"ethramathe"
>
>TATA!
>Sateesh
Njan
Narcissus
>mispronounce a name. It would be very surprising for a non-native speaker
>to correctly pronounce things (in ANY language other than his own).
>But the point I was making about "Oheeyo" is this: It is only the
>Malayalee, after hearing how it is pronounced, corrects the native speaker
Probably that your performance as a native english speaker didnt work out
that good!
mathai chundattu
KV...@psuvm.psu.edu
interesting. Some thoughts I had while reading them.
* One of the most famous Malayalees with the accent is probably
Prof. E.C.G.Sudarshan. Even after living in US for ^30 years(?)
he didn't change his style. In 1985 or so in an interview (I
forget which magazine) on "wide ranging topics" when asked about
this he replied (I think I remember this right) "Even when I was
at TIFR I avoided the Indian Airlines accent."
By the way, he made many provocative remarks in that interview.
Here are a couple of them :
"Whatever Chandrashekhar did in Chicago, can be done in
Chickamangalur also." (About Prof. S.Chandrashekhar).
"By my becoming a member of the Indian Academy of Sciences, the
Academy got honoured".
* My Ph.D advisor at IISc (a Karnataka Brahmin), tried to tease
me by saying "simbly wandarful" when he returned from a visit
to RRL Trivandrum, although I don't have the accent (and he
knew that). I asked him "The Japanese and the Russians also
speak English with their own accent. So why should Keralites
change?"
* There is nothing about the malayali accent which should make
us think that we are of lower grade or something. For instance,
almost every state in India has its own "official" English accent!
Think about the Bengali English (I still don't know why they switch
"wh" to "hw". "why" is "hwy" and "what" is "hwat" for them.) and
Bihari English (iskool, istrength...). Of course getting rid of the
accent is another matter.
damodaran
kv...@psuvm.psu.edu
kai...@watson.ibm.com
a pet name in addition to the name they gave at church or at school.
Usually this name has no connection to their official names.
A pet name should be a short form of the actual name. Thus Anthony becomes
Tony, Robert becomes Bob -----. I was named Dominic since that was
my maternal grand father's name and it was customary to name the second
male child in the family by that name. But I had a pet name that has
no connection to this. Since I tend to not use this, only my immediate
family members know that such a name exists.
Another practise among the parents is to extend the names with an
amma if female or an achan if male. Thus Mareena becomes Mareenamma,
Shanty becomes Shantyamma and Rinsi becomes Rinsiamma. Simlarly Michael
becomes Michaelachan, Mathai becomes Mathaiachan and Cherian becomes
Cheriachan. I have also seen Cherian becoming Cherian kunju. Kunju makes
some sense when the person is a child but sounds absurd for an old man .
But since amma means mother and achan means father what they actually
doing is making a lot of these people un wed mothers and fathers. But
then who cares about logic and meaning?.
Yet another practice is to give the children when they register them
at school their father's name as last name. Last name should
be something like Smith, Baker ----- which is common to all
the family members. The concept of house name works similar to this
and so house name is more appropriate as a last name. Yet only very few
malayalees have house name as last name. Thus most of malayalee
christian cousins have diffrent last names.
Just some thoughts, no pun intended
manu
>Hi : Recent discussions about the malayali accent have been
>interesting. Some thoughts I had while reading them.
>
> * One of the most famous Malayalees with the accent is probably
> Prof. E.C.G.Sudarshan. Even after living in US for ^30 years(?)
I thought Prof. Sudarshan was from Mangalore.
>damodaran
Njan
Narayana Sateesh Pillai
> By the way, he made many provocative remarks in that interview.
> Here are a couple of them :
> "Whatever Chandrashekhar did in Chicago, can be done in
> Chickamangalur also." (About Prof. S.Chandrashekhar).
So why does ECG want to stay at some place in Texas, when he
could be doing the same work at the Institute for Math Sciences in
Madras? There was a lot of controversy about this about 6 years ago.
The problem was that most of the time, ECG was in Texas when he was
supposed to be directing work at Madras.
And as far as Chandrashekhar is concerned, supposedly he went
around India looking for a job, before he decided to settle down in
the US. He decided to come back only because nobody offered him a job!
I don't know if he tried to work at Chickamagalur though.
Sudha Neelakantan
and many people feel that f.o.b.s
very hastily change to an ameriican accent, for e.g.
saying baaath to rhyme with hat etc., and some felt that
was very pretentious. and theres the confusion between
w and v. do many you feel that this change of pronunciation
is put on and artificial and rather stupid of newcomers?
does it sound very artificial to you? personally, i've been
"accused" of having an accent both in india when i moved to
college from my convent education, and here, tho here, its
also been positive sometimes. and i do say zee, and baath
(i learned that 10 years ago when my 4 yr old cousin visited
for the summer and didn't know bath -- now his kid brother
does an excellent indian accent!)
Sudha
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<*>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sudha K. Neelakantan < Clouds come floating into my life,
The Heinz School of \ no longer to carry rain or usher storm
Public Policy and Management \ but to add color to my sunset sky.
Carnegie Mellon > - Rabindranath Tagore -
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<*>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Internet email: sud...@cmu.edu
Devakumar Sreevijayan
>On sawnet, recently, there's been a discussion on accents,
>and many people feel that f.o.b.s
>was very pretentious. And there's the confusion between
>w and v. Do many of you feel that this change of pronunciation
>is put on and artificial and rather stupid of newcomers?
Most people change the way they speak English when they come to the
U.S. I did. This was primarily in the interests of making myself better
understood. Secondly, I discovered that my pronunciation and diction
were quite wrong in many instances. I tried to correct those, while
being entirely mindful of the fact that American pronunciation and
accent are quite atrocious on occasion.
Though there is no such thing as a standard diction, most Indians,
while speaking English, are guilty of 'placing the emphAAsis on the
wrong syllAAble'. :-) Now, correcting this malady necessarily changes
your accent. Today, my accent is very different from what it was when
I came here. Though I think it is free of being very American, I do
use a lot of Americanisms, including the first thing everyone picks up,
the 'Uh Huh'. I try to speak clearly, and as accent-free an English
as possible, though I still haven't quite figured out the farvegnugen
behind the v-w distinction. I no longer 'see' Z (I deny that I ever did :-),
though 'Zed' is, quite sadly, dead.
Speaking of accents, during my REC days, I had a Kashmiri friend by name
of Sanjay Moza. Once, while sitting outdoors and taking in the breezes,
a freshie shimmered up to us, looking exceedingly tentative. There was
ragging going on, and someone had despatched his diffident form in our
direction. Moza looked up at him quizzically, as the fellow queried,
(with a quaver): 'Sir, are you married?'. Moza was silent for a minute,
and then he nodded gravely and said: 'Yes, I am married'. I made myself
more comfortable where I sat; this was going to be fun. I knew Moza wasn't
married. The freshie spoke again, this time without the quaver. 'Sir, do
you have any children?' Moza was silent again. Then, in the same grave
voice of before, he said: "Yes, I have two children. The eldest is
called Moja, and the other is called Mosa'. I couldn't control myself,
and burst out laughing, so hard that it brought the quaver back to the
freshie's voice, who was totally innocent of the quirks of Malayali
and Bihari pronunciation.
To answer Sudha's question more directly, it annoys me when a f.o.b
(or, for that matter, a not-so-f.o.b) puts on a heavy accent that drips
with pretension. However, in the interests of better communication, and
correct pronunciation and a proper diction, I think a change of accent is
a good thing.
Dev (No...no..not Dave; the D is soft. Eh? What's that? No, I am
not Def either. The D is soft, as in De La Garza; Beatrice
de la Garza)
Sathyadev Ramachandran
what he said about Chandrashekar. My impressions are from reading his
biography 'Chandra' by Prof. Kameshwar Wali.
Chandrashekar did get an offer from the Kodaikanal Observatory
but he was not interested in it as he thought it did not fit in with
his interests at that time. As I recall reading from the above mentioned
book, he was personally approached on two occasions by Bhabha himself to
work at TIFR which was an young institution then. Armed with these facts
I find your remarks about his not being offered a job in India totally off
the mark.
Chandrashekar had misgivings on the state of science in india at
that time. He did have dislike for personalities like Bose,Saha,Bhabha
and even Raman for their politics. I find his arguments hard to buy. To
me somebody who thinks of science as just a pure pursuit of knowledge
for its own sake is naive. Infact, reading 'Chandra' disappointed me. He
was one of the heroes in my undergrad days ,but one's personal lives maynot
reflect everything that he or she may stand for professionally.
dev
Sathyadev Ramachandran
well, he is from kottayam. got his education in madras and bombay.
dev
K. J. Jacob
> And as far as Chandrashekhar is concerned, supposedly he went
>around India looking for a job, before he decided to settle down in
>the US. He decided to come back only because nobody offered him a job!
>I don't know if he tried to work at Chickamagalur though.
I remember reading his memoirs in which he stated that he was offered the
vice-chancellorship of JNU and directorship of BARC!! He declined both offers
because he considered them too administrative (hogwash!!). Economics dictates
their judgement - makes sense too.
Jacob.
Shyam Kuttikkad
>But the point I was making about "Oheeyo" is this: It is only the
>Malayalee, after hearing how it is pronounced, corrects the native speaker
>and tells them: It is not Ohio, but Oheeyo!!!!
I was away for a few days and hence could not reply to your article earlier.
Maybe your new classmates were trying to reassert their superiority over an
"innale vanna payyan" by trying to correct your pronunciation of Ohio. This
is most probably not a feature of the Malayalee psyche alone. But then again,
a child psychologist may be able to explain this better than me.
>> the English language has no word
>> corresponding to the Malayalam word 'ethramathe', as in 'John Peterinte
>> ethramathe makana ?' This word is used very frequently in Malayalam.
> But when I ponder about it, I get the feeling that this is
>more associated with finding out the finer details, which may be
>more important to the Malayalee than the Englishman.
>Malayalee wants to know the details!!!
> The Englishman is satisfied to know that L.B.Shastri was a prime
>minister of India. The Malayalee wants to know the "ethramathe".
C'mon Sateesh, I am sure that an equivalent word for 'ethramathe' exists
in several languages. Don't tell me that your generalized Englishman never
feels the need to use a word like 'ethramathe'. Consider these questions :
"Is this your first car (or marriage)?"
"Is this your Senior Year in college?"
What would you answer if you were playing Jeopardy and the clue was :
"Jefferson was the THIRD President of the United States."
And the obvious answer "Who was Jefferson?" doesn't count. But rest
assured that this question will not come up in Jeopardy, because English
doesn't have a word for 'ethramathe'.
>TATA!
>Sateesh
Shyam
Venu Nayar
writes about how expatriates acquire an american accent, which sounds
artificial to others.
from experience, i have noticed that you loses your indian accent, if you
are in the company of americans for long periods of time. i would assume
that comes from a need to conform. i have also noticed that aussies, and the
brits normally dont lose their accents even after spending most of their
lives here. maybe they are more confident with their accent?
so i guess it is a matter of how comfortable you are with your original
accent etc, and a need to conform.
however, here i am seperating accent from pronunciation of words.
the accent would mean the drawling of words, the reverberation of r's etc...
where as pronunciation would be the way bath is said as ba'-th instead of
bath.
when someone gets the american accent, its sounding artificial depends on
many things, none of which (to me) has anything to do with the fact he is
indian. in fact, other factors such as how comfortable the person is with
the accent they are using, the ease of use, and whether they lapse out of
it, weighs in more heavily with me in deciding whether the accent sounds
natural or not.
pronunciation seems to depend entirely on ease-of-communication. sometimes,
americans who are not used to the british accent, find it extremely
difficult to understand what i am saying unless i use the american
pronunciation. depending on how much i come in contact with such people,
the word can get modified...that just depends on how often i say it
consciously before it becomes unconscious.
once that gets unconscious, i dont lapse to my old usage even when i speak to
people who can understand it.
and i feel that both accent and pronunciation become natural, depending on
how often you use it...
also, as a caveat, it work in reverse too...people with american accents
tend to get indianised accents when they live in india for long periods of
time.
--
Venu Nayar | Email: ve...@cirrus.com/ve...@rahul.net
Join the march to save individuality!
Vachaspathi Kompella
In article <1993Apr22.1...@cirrus.com>, ve...@cirrus.com (Venu Nayar) writes:
|>
|> from experience, i have noticed that you loses your indian accent, if you
|> are in the company of americans for long periods of time. i would assume
|> that comes from a need to conform. i have also noticed that aussies, and the
|> brits normally dont lose their accents even after spending most of their
|> lives here. maybe they are more confident with their accent?
|>
|> so i guess it is a matter of how comfortable you are with your original
|> accent etc, and a need to conform.
|>
|> Venu Nayar | Email: ve...@cirrus.com/ve...@rahul.net
|> Join the march to save individuality!
How about, sometimes you do it because you don't really want to repeat
what you say several times because the Americans can't figure out your
accent? Kind of makes for stilted conversation, don't you think?
E.g., I'd much rather say haaf, than haef (feeble attempt to phoneticize half),
but these undergrads here, they find it too hard to process (You mean,
we have to figure out that he is saying half, AND do the assignment?)
And it's not just the pronunciation, as you so astutely pointed out. What
if I said "half" with a Tamilian sing-song, or "what" with a Bengali accent?
I mean, WTF (what-the-f**k) kind of loses its effect if it becomes BTP
(bhaat-the-ph**k).
-Vach