Looking through the propaganda from the war
AUGUSTUS
Shatoy and the villages in the Argun valley has been taken by the Russian
forces according to reliable news sources.
Now, the Chechen rebels do only control some small pockets in the
mountainous
southern part of Chechnya.
The news from this area handed by the Russian part and the Chechen part of
this war has been containing a lot of propaganda, boosting own efforts and
how
many enemies killed.
The truth should definitively be somewhere between, so it has been probably
about the same amount in killed soldiers of the both sides, about 3000-4000
killed each side. The Russians made their gains so far through the heavy
arms
as artillery, rockets, tanks, helicopters and airfighters. They controlled
the air and
the plain fields, and they bombed and shelled the mountains and cities,
forcing the
mujahideen away at the cost of making the whole place to a hip of rubble.
As the winning price, the Russians have now to rebuild the area almost from
scratch. There is nothing left now.
That's my conclusion of this war as it has happened so far.
The Russian Federation has one really big problem to handle. That's the
ethnic
problem of having a country with so much different nationalities, and the
desire
of separatism has many supporters in some of the federated republics in
Russia.
Now it's on time to look for fair and democratic elections, even in
Chechnya. But
the guy Beslan Gantamirov, who has been nominated by the Russian leadership
is a really big crook. That guy was convicted for thievery and fraud, and
was released last year. He had a lot of time of conviction left when he was
freed. That's
a very bad "advertising" by the Russians who claimed this war to be a
campaign
against criminals and terrorists. I can't find that equation to be correct
while they
appointed the thief Gantamirov as Chechen leader. Thieves shall sit in the
jail.
AUGUSTUS
MOHAMMED HABIB
paradise. If they were there to help and improve things then it would be a
different matter.
As for the winning of the war the resistance to the Russian occupation will
continnue especially once spring arrives.
Russia withdrawing troops I doubt that, but if they are they'll probably get
a siginificant strike from the mujahadeen..
AUGUSTUS <thomas.a...@swipnet.se> wrote in message
news:nNUu4.2341$yw1....@nntpserver.swip.net...
MOHAMMED HABIB
to pretend that they've won so that he wins the election ..
DMY
MOHAMMED HABIB <am...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:BLgv4.27391$V_.10837@news1-hme0...
> There's the problem Russia wants to make Chechnya, like Moscow, a Mafia
> paradise. If they were there to help and improve things then it would be a
> different matter.
>
...depends for whom. I dare to say things were certainly improved today for
two Polish women released by Russian soldiers. Things worsened for
Maskhadov, Basaev, Khattab and other killers, who are locked in high
mountains and are loosing people and support
DMY
MOHAMMED HABIB
> ...depends for whom . I dare to say things were certainly improved today
for
> two Polish women released by Russian soldiers. Things worsened for
> Maskhadov, Basaev, Khattab and other killers, who are locked in high
> mountains and are loosing people and support
Well the innocent civilians in Grozny and the rest of Chechnya are been
tortured, raped, and looted. Imagine if that happened to you, your family
and people. The Russians have no right to occupy and destroy Chechnya either
directly or using covert underhanded tactics as they did after the last war.
To call Maskhadov and Basaev, Khattab and other Chechans, killers well I'd
like to point out that the Russians are the ones killing civilians for no
apparent reason. The Chechans are only attacking Russian forces not Russian
towns and people. A systematic terrorist campaign could quite easily begin
across Russia but the Chechans don't care about Russia they simply want
their independance back from imperialist Russia. They want Russia to leave
because Russia has no right to stay.
DMY <d.ya...@pmintl.CUTTHISFIRST.ru> wrote in message
news:89p5k4$2k5h$1...@news.sovam.com...
DMY
> DMY wrote on thing being better ::-
>
> > ...depends for whom . I dare to say things were certainly improved today
> for
> > two Polish women released by Russian soldiers. Things worsened for
> > Maskhadov, Basaev, Khattab and other killers, who are locked in high
> > mountains and are loosing people and support
>
> Well the innocent civilians in Grozny and the rest of Chechnya are been
> tortured, raped, and looted.
...you mean by Russian soldiers. This is simply not true. Of course you may
find such facts; the war is the war. However these facts are rather
exception than a rule and are properly adresses by procecution. E.g. last
month three soldiers, who shot a street seller were sentenced to several
years of prison. Procecutors deliberately address these fact in order not to
leave a chance for blaming Rissan army for atrocities. But it all seems in
vain. We call it "Svinja griazi najdet" - a pig will always find a dirt.
Western media wants to find blaime on Russian side, they search for it and
so they find it from time to time. When it happens, all start to scream and
yell at Russia. The vast majority of opposite cases are simply skipped.
> Imagine if that happened to you, your family
> and people.
I almost do not need to imagine.
> The Russians have no right to occupy and destroy Chechnya either
> directly or using covert underhanded tactics as they did after the last
war.
> To call Maskhadov and Basaev, Khattab and other Chechans, killers well
I'd
> like to point out that the Russians are the ones killing civilians for no
> apparent reason.
Absolutely not true. You are a victim of information war.
> The Chechans are only attacking Russian forces not Russian
> towns and people.
Ok, let me tell you a little bit about how Chechens defend normally. I have
a right to tell it, because it has many proofs, videos and so on. It was the
case in Pervomaiskoye, Kizliar, Grozny Alkhan-Yourt and other towns and
villiages. First, they do not let civilians to leave the place; the ones who
try are normally stand in front of a firing squad. Second, when they finally
have to leave they take civilian hostages with them and use them as a cover.
Here is what Russians normally do: as they approach the town/villiage, they
contact local elderlies and tell them: "look, we do not what to kill
civilians, so if there are any figters in the villiage let us know and get
out of the villiage, we will shell it. Alternatively, you can try to agree
with these fighters so that thjey leave; in this case we will enter the
vissiage without a single shot. But if we are attacked, we will fight and
the villiage will be destroyed". Very often this tactic works. Second
largest city of Chechnia - Gudermes was liberated this way.
Now tell me who takes more care of civilians?
> A systematic terrorist campaign could quite easily begin
> across Russia but the Chechans don't care about Russia they simply want
> their independance back from imperialist Russia. They want Russia to leave
> because Russia has no right to stay.
This is nothing more than pathetics.
Regards, DMY.
MOHAMMED HABIB
that things have been exagerated by Western media, but how do you condone
Russia's invading of Chechnya ??
None of the Chechans want them there that's why Russia has had such a hard
time of it - local community supports the fighters - you know this is true
otheriwse the fighters would have been captured long ago.
So after returning to Russia in 96 why did the Russians decide to return ???
Don't use the execuse that Moscow appartment blocks were bombed by Chechans
terrorists because you have no proof and that's no execuse to invade
Chechnya and destroy a whole city. Grozny is now in ruins and Russia can't
afford to rebuild it. What have they achieved ???
DMY <d.ya...@pmintl.CUTTHISFIRST.ru> wrote in message
news:89s1cs$1bvo$1...@news.sovam.com...
DMY
MOHAMMED HABIB <am...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:iwAw4.62345$V_.43341@news1-hme0...
> Ok I understand your point of view on the information war - it is possible
> that things have been exagerated by Western media, but how do you condone
> Russia's invading of Chechnya ??
To put apples to apples, for last 150 years Chechnia has always been part of
Russia, so all what is being done is done at the territory of Russia. Just
to straighten the point.
> None of the Chechans want them there
None is a wrong word. You know it is not true.
> that's why Russia has had such a hard
> time of it - local community supports the fighters - you know this is true
Part of local communities support fighters. Only part, and this part is
diminishing. The reasons you can understand for yourself very well - how
mother can not support his son or husband, even if she knows he is not
right. This is especially true in Muslim and tribe communities, where
ethnical and relational duties are often treated above the law and justice.
But I tell you, fighters has less and less supporters. If you could notice,
several thousand of Chechens are fighting on Russia side. Local police
forces are formed from Chechens, who also fight criminals. Local authorities
in Chechnial are formed from ethnical Chechens and so on.
There is less and less of "Russian against Chechens" in it and there is more
and more "Legitimate authorities against rebels".
> otheriwse the fighters would have been captured long ago.
Given the original number of gangs and criminals (over 30,000), the
operation is Chechnia is I think is as fast as it could be. Almost all
territory of Chechnia is currenly cleaned. What's left - are separate groups
of diversants, which will be eliminated during next several months.
> So after returning to Russia in 96 why did the Russians decide to return
???
I'm convinces that in the first place Russia should not have left it in the
beginning of 90-ies. If the army had not left it, organised crime would not
have come into power in Chechnia. However Russia was very weak after
"reforms" and could not take enough care of it. Operation in 1996 aimed
right goals, but was terribly bad organised and did not succeed. I'm glad to
see that Russian authorities are capable to learn from past mistakes.
> Don't use the execuse that Moscow appartment blocks were bombed by
Chechans
> terrorists because you have no proof
Yeas there are proofs. These proofs were even confirmed by US experts (if it
helps you to beleive in it)
> and that's no execuse to invade
> Chechnya and destroy a whole city. Grozny is now in ruins and Russia can't
> afford to rebuild it. What have they achieved ???
Grozny is destroyed. It is true. However, it was a breaking point in a the
war and therefore it was extremely important from psycological point of
view. As of then ordinary Chechen people started to beleive that Russia will
not leave them to bandits anymore. Also it was absolutely necessary from
strategic point of view. Further advancement to the south were not possible
with such a pain in the back. Finally is was important victory from military
point of view. Thosands of bandits were killed and captured with very few
losses from Russia side. The ratio was approximately 1:10, which is under
normal fronta sturm could have been just reversed - 10:1.
That's what has been achieved.
Regards, DMY