RHPS: A Nazi's Horror Picture Show?
Jerry R. Blevins
Someone in this group (was it YOU?) once suggested that "RHPS" was, in
some way, about the Nazis and the Holocaust. Evidence to support this:
* the triangle on Frank's surgical gown was the symbol the Nazis once used
to denote gays in the death camps
* the "4711" on Frank's leg looks like a concentration camp number
* Although they have never met, Frank and Scott seem to know and dislike
each other; Scott talks with a German accent, and Frank implies that Scott
was once a Nazi and is now hiding his Germanic background in the United
States.
* Riff-Raff, who is blond (the Aryan ideal), kills Frank, who is
dark-haired. Riff says that Frank's "lifestyle [is] too extreme." Scott
agrees with Riff.
Looking at the evidence this way, Frank seems to represent the
"undesirables" (i.e. gays, Jews) killed in the Holocaust, and maniacally
patriotic Riff-Raff represents the Nazi aggressors.
However, this theory is shot all to hell when we look at the main thrust
of the storyline -- Frank creating Rocky Horror. Frank is a self-styled
"scientist" who creates his ideal man -- with blond hair and blue eyes --
through unnatural, cruel methods. Frank is violent with those who are
physically imperfect -- hunchbacked, balding Riff-Raff and overweight
Eddie.
Looking at it this way, Frank seems like a Nazi.
--Joe--
--
"I loved 'The Breakfast Club' for all the wrong reasons, and wished it had
been like an old Warhol film with an eight-hour running time so the
audience would feel as if they too were trapped in detention hall along
with the characters"
-JOHN WATERS
Arthur Levesque
Jerry R. Blevins (jrbl...@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu) wrote:
JB>Someone in this group (was it YOU?)
Wasn't me. I would never slander Rocky with false Nazi tie-in
rumors; I limit myself to factual info on the rare Brad/Riff scene...
JB>once suggested that "RHPS" was, in some way, about the Nazis and the
JB>Holocaust. Evidence to support this:
JB>* the triangle on Frank's surgical gown was the symbol the Nazis once
JB> used to denote gays in the death camps
And gays have since taken it over as a symbol of gay pride. It is
now seen just about everywhere, without any Nazi overtones...
JB>* the "4711" on Frank's leg looks like a concentration camp number
Not enough digits, not the right kind of lettering, wrong part of
the body, etc. This is the bonehead-rumor-that-will-not-die. 4711 is a
COLOGNE.
JB>* Although they have never met, Frank and Scott seem to know and
JB> dislike each other; Scott talks with a German accent,
Yeah, that makes him a nazi alright... Although I have always
believed that Scott and Bert Schnick were nazis that escaped to the USA
together...
JB> and Frank implies that Scott was once a Nazi and is now hiding his
JB> Germanic background in the United States.
All he implies is that Scott changed his name.
JB>* Riff-Raff, who is blond (the Aryan ideal), kills Frank, who is
JB> dark-haired. Riff says that Frank's "lifestyle [is] too extreme."
JB> Scott agrees with Riff.
Scott is kissing ass because he believes he'll get shot next.
JB>Looking at the evidence this way, Frank seems to represent the
JB>"undesirables" ... killed in the Holocaust... [SNIP] Looking at it
JB>this way, Frank seems like a Nazi.
And if you look at him THIS way, he looks like Greg Brady on acid...
--
/\ Arthur Michael Levesque 2A4W <*> bubba bo bob baks...@nicom.com
\B\ack King of the Potato People =/\= Alicia's Quad Prince Homey Bunny!
\S\lash "Kleenex is just like sheep" -Jim Bannon [fnord] Cthulhu matata!
\/ Hoopla, Denton! For a good time: http://www.nicom.com/~bakslash
"Oh no! I'm tripping with the Bradies!!!!"
Jefffrey Aaron Kay
What????
This is nuts.
But that's just my opinion.
I've been wrong before. (from time to time. oh dear oh dear)
Jeff
Arthur Levesque
Jerry R. Blevins (jrbl...@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu) foamed at the mouth:
JB>Bakslash, you ignorant slut...
It's amazing how quickly I lose respect for anyone who immediately
resorts to personal attacks just because someone fails to agree with them
utterly and unconditionally.
JB>Frank is not merely implying that Dr. Scott "changed his name."
JB>If that's how you interpreted the "*von* Scott" comment...
That is NOT how I interpreted the "Von Scott" comment... I've been
yelling "Seig Heil" after that line in theaters for YEARS*. However,
that line, and your remarkable discovery that Scott has a German accent
(gasp!) do not lead to your conclusion that Scotty was a death-camp war
criminal... A LOT of German scientists, before, during, and after the
war; came over to the US and worked for the government. Heard of Werner
von Braun?
JB>you are as dumb as your screenname.
Oh, yeah, and what idiot came up with "Jerry R. Blevins"?
JB>It's astonishing that someone who obviously hasn't given the evidence
JB>a moment's thought is prepared to make smug, ill-informed comments.
It's obvious that someone who can't stand to be disagreed with is
prepared to resort to personal attacks because he couldn't debate his way
out of a pair of torn fishnets...
All of this so-called "evidence" has been debated before**, so we've
all given it more than a moment's thought. I notice, however, that YOU
have not given a moment's thought to any of my rebuttals -- you cleverly
ignore the debunking of the 4711-as-a-nazi-tattoo bullshit, the
any-usage-of-a-pink-triangle-must-be-a-nazi-reference angle (that ought
to surprise millions of people at gay pride marches who aren't aware that
you're branding all of them as closet nazis or former nazi victims), your
completely laughable Riff/aryan hypothesis, and all of your other
comments which you can't defend.
JB>I ask for well-thought-out responses, and what do I get?
Looks to me like you were asking for people to go "Oooh, ahh, you're
so clever, Jerry! Do me now!"
JB>Greg Brad jokes!
"Greg Brady on acid" is a reference you should have gotten, if you'd
ever actually been anywhere near a real RHPS performance in what passes
for your life...
JB>Truly hilarious, Bakslash! So witty!
Thank you.
JB>I don't know why I bother with this group sometimes.
With that childish attitude, I wonder too. Does this mean you're
going to run away and hide again just like you did last time people
failed to worship you unconditionally and your fragile ego couldn't take
it?
--
/\ Arthur Michael Levesque 2A4W <*> bubba bo bob baks...@nicom.com
\B\ack King of the Potato People =/\= Alicia's Quad Prince Homey Bunny!
\S\lash "Kleenex is just like sheep" -Jim Bannon [fnord] Cthulhu matata!
\/ Hoopla, Denton! For a good time: http://www.nicom.com/~bakslash
* Gotten your lazy ass to a theater yet, or am I wasting my time with a
virgin who thinks he knows more about RHPS than the rest of us?
** Which is probably why no one else even bothered to respond to you;
they just laughed and said "Oh, God, not THAT again!"
Jerry R. Blevins
Bakslash, you ignorant slut:
Frank is not merely implying that Dr. Scott "changed his name." If that's
how you interpreted the "*von* Scott" comment, you are as dumb as
your screenname.
It's astonishing that someone who obviously hasn't given the evidence a
moment's thought is prepared to make smug, ill-informed comments.
I ask for well-thought-out responses, and what do I get? Greg Brad jokes!
Truly hilarious, Bakslash! So witty!
I don't know why I bother with this group sometimes.
--Joe--
IQJasonS
Hey, folks. The flowing-follicled one here, with a small clarification
for Arthur Levesque (aka Bakslash). That is, if he needs it. I've fallen
for less subtle trolls before. Anyhow:
::Jerry R. Blevins (jrbl...@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu) foamed at the mouth:
::JB>Bakslash, you ignorant slut...
:It's amazing how quickly I lose respect for anyone who immediately
:resorts to personal attacks just because someone fails to agree with them
:utterly and unconditionally.
The "you ignorant slut" line comes from the original SNL cast's Point/
Counterpoint sketches from Weekend Update. Dan Aykroyd and Jane
Curtin would debate a currents events issue, beginning midly and
rationally at first and then slowly shifting into full-on insult tactics.
Usually, Curtin would begin, and Dan would begin his rebuttal with
"Jane, you ignorant slut..."
In other words, I don't think it was meant as a personal attack as much
as a *parody* of same. Or it could just be me.
yours, quite an educated slut, actually,
the long-haired linecraefter of 12th street
Arthur Levesque
Jerry R. Blevins (jrbl...@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu) foamed at the mouth:
JB>Bakslash, you ignorant slut...
Arthur Levesque (baks...@nicom.com) fired back:
BS>It's amazing how quickly I lose respect for anyone who immediately
BS>resorts to personal attacks just because someone fails to agree with
BS>them utterly and unconditionally.
Long-Haired Linecraefter of 12th Street (iqja...@aol.com) explained:
LHL>The "you ignorant slut" line comes from the original SNL cast's
LHL>Point/Counterpoint sketches from Weekend Update...
I recognized the line, yes.
LHL>In other words, I don't think it was meant as a personal attack as
LHL>much as a *parody* of same. Or it could just be me.
Reading further into Jerry's rant, it does become obvious that
it was a personal attack; a completely unwarranted one at that:
JB>...If that's how you interpreted the "*von* Scott" comment, you are
JB>as dumb as your screenname.
JB>It's astonishing that someone who obviously hasn't given the evidence
JB>a moment's thought is prepared to make smug, ill-informed comments.
JB>I ask for well-thought-out responses, and what do I get? Greg Brad
JB>jokes! Truly hilarious, Bakslash! So witty!
I merely responded in kind. Hopefully, this will be the end of it.*
--
/\ Arthur Michael Levesque 2A4W <*> bubba bo bob baks...@nicom.com
\B\ack King of the Potato People =/\= Alicia's Quad Prince Homey Bunny!
\S\lash "Kleenex is just like sheep" -Jim Bannon [fnord] Cthulhu matata!
\/ Hoopla, Denton! For a good time: http://www.nicom.com/~bakslash
* Jerry, if you have any other non-germane comments to make, send 'em
via e-mail.
Jerry R. Blevins
And by the way...
I've never *met* you, so how on Earth could I make a *personal* attack? I
know nothing about you, other than that you're prone to "Brady Bunch"
references.
This isn't real life.
Arthur Levesque
JB>every right to defend myself.
Sorry, I just re-read my original response in this thread. There is
not a single comment in there that can be interpreted as a personal
attack against you.
JB>I was merely restating opinions that *others* had expressed on this
JB>newsgroup.
So was I. The 4711-is-a-concentration-camp-tattoo was debated and
discredited a long time ago.
JB>I wanted people to weigh in with their own interpretations of the
JB>evidence.
That I did.
JB>*You*, however, seemed to think it was somehow insulting "RHPS"
JB>to even *suggest* that the film had this subtext.
*BUZZ!!* My original comment was "I would never slander Rocky with
false Nazi tie-in rumors; I limit myself to factual info on the rare
Brad/Riff scene..." Hardly a serious comment at all.
JB>Your second goal seemed to be discrediting *me*.
*BUZZ!!* I criticized the points you made. That's called
discussion. You criticized me. That's called a personal attack. Two
entirely different things.
JB>In effect, YOU were the one who made this personal, not me.
*BUZZ!!* YOU turned it personal with comments like "you are as dumb
as your screenname" and "someone who obviously hasn't given the evidence
a moment's thought is prepared to make smug, ill-informed comments."
JB>I've never *met* you, so how on Earth could I make a *personal*
JB>attack?
Now you're attempting semantics. A personal attack in a debate is
an insulting comment where you attack (verbally) your opponent instead of
your opponent's position. This is known as "argumentum ad hominem". A
*physical* attack would require you to meet me. Give it up.
JB>This newsgroup has gotten a little dull lately. I think it needs a
JB>little contention now and again. Argument is nothing to shy away
JB>from.
Stupid arguments like this belong in e-mail, which is the only place
I'll read or respond to any further tripe on this subject.
Zenin
[Posted and mailed]
Jerry R. Blevins <jrbl...@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu> wrote:
: I've never *met* you, so how on Earth could I make a *personal* attack?
I've never "met" you face to face either, but wouldn't you consider
it an attack if I refered to you as a, "Fucking moron who's pee sized
brain couldn't out-think a paperclip!!!"? Yes or no?
Eg, it's in *no* way nessary to need to know someone vary well, if
at all, to issue a personal attack. All you have to do is issue
an attack directed towards them.
Also, why would it matter if you "met" someone face to face or via
electronic messages? Just because I don't know what your face looks
like doesn't meen we haven't "met". I have *many* friends that I've
never met in person that I'm rather close to. Are they any less
friends because of this? No. Nor do I think my oppion of you would
be improved or changed if we were to meet in person.
: This isn't real life.
But that's the point, it vary much is "real life" in every sence.
Would anything really be any different if we were all sitting in
a room together? Not much IMHO, not much at all.
______
/ Spelling mistakes? Their couldn't be. -My modem is error correcting.
/
/ Ze...@Best.com ---->>ROCKY HORROR ARCHIVE<<----
/ ___ __ o __
/ /___\ |/ \ | |/ \ http://www.best.com/~zenin/
/_______\___ | | | | |_______________________________________________
Zenin
[Posted and mailed]
Jerry R. Blevins <jrbl...@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu> wrote:
: The "ignorant slut" thing was a reference to the old "Point/Counterpoint"
: skits on "Saturday Night Live," not a "personal attack."
Jerry (if infact that is your real name:-), you must be new to
Usenet. When making comments like that don't assume that people
will catch the reference (I didn't, and I've watched more then my
fair share of SNL). Always, after a line like that put a simile.
It looks like this---> :-)
or there abouts. :)
Since electronic messages lack the body language people
normaly use to put comments like your's in the correct context, the
use of similes is needed to keep from being misunderstood. In some
cases you may want to push the point further by using lines like:
:-) <--For the humor impaired.
: Sheesh! And, let's be honest, *you* started with the snide comments, so I
: had every right to defend myself.
Backslash's comments were mild in the extream, and clearly stated
as simple oppions(sp?). You're however were rude, undeserved, and
juvenile.
: In the original post, I was merely restating opinions that *others* had
: expressed on this newsgroup. I wasn't criticizing you for "disagreeing"
: with me. I was criticizing you for not even considering the evidence
: before passing judgment.
To quote your words,
"Frank is not merely implying that Dr. Scott "changed his name." If
that's how you interpreted the "*von* Scott" comment, you are as
dumb as your screenname.".
Sounds VARY defensive to me, and WITH OUT A DOUBT a personal
attack, as was the rest of the your post.
And now you run away from your own words by claiming that
you were just quoting others. At this point you are now putting
words into the mouths of others of the group, myself included. I
personaly don't need anyone to speek on my behalf, especialy someone
with a tongue so twisted by rage. Grow up.
: The theories posted weren't necessarily *mine*, and I never said they
: were.
By stating information, oppions, theories, etc without any reference
or notation with regard to there owner you imply /heavily/ that they
are your own. You need to learn more about communication with
others, both online and in general. Eg, You need to get out of the
house more.
: I wanted people to weigh in with their own interpretations of the
: evidence. *You*, however, seemed to think it was somehow insulting "RHPS"
: to even *suggest* that the film had this subtext. Your second goal seemed
: to be discrediting *me*. In effect, YOU were the one who made this
: personal, not me.
Oh please, get over it.
: P.S. - This newsgroup has gotten a little dull lately. I think it needs a
: little contention now and again. Argument is nothing to shy away from.
P.S.? Why are you using a PS in an electronic message? Do you
know what PS meens? At most a "BTW," would have been a far better
constuct. -But then, this is only IMHO. :-)
About your comment "Argument is nothing to shy away from.":
You're correct, it's not. I personaly love to argue; HOWEVER, what
you were doing was not arguing, but launching blatant, personal
attacks without cause.
If you have a wirthwhile oppion, then by all meens express it,
defend it, argue it's points to your heart's content. But steping
down to juvenile name-calling is just selfdefeating. I think it's
best summed up in the quote (by someone who's name current excapes
me), "Better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are
a fool, then to open it and prove them right.".
-Incase you don't realise it, you just proved us (Backslash and
myself) right... :-/
The Happy Hacker
Jerry R. Blevins wrote:
>
> Looking at it this way, Frank seems like a Nazi.
>
> --Joe--
You are warped. The movie embraces all that is politically incorrect,
true, but then Dr. Scott (who I play) finally gives in to absolute
pleasure.
--
Member of "The Dayton Affair", Rocky Horror Picture Show in Dayton, Ohio
http://www.donet.com/~jeffery
Pendragon
On 28 Oct 1996 12:40:12 GMT, baks...@nicom.com (Arthur Levesque)
wrote:
>
> And if you look at him THIS way, he looks like Greg Brady on acid...
Thank you... Analyzing RHPS? UGH! Will the politics never end!!!!!
Jerry R. Blevins
Bakslash:
The "ignorant slut" thing was a reference to the old "Point/Counterpoint"
skits on "Saturday Night Live," not a "personal attack."
Sheesh! And, let's be honest, *you* started with the snide comments, so I
had every right to defend myself.
In the original post, I was merely restating opinions that *others* had
expressed on this newsgroup. I wasn't criticizing you for "disagreeing"
with me. I was criticizing you for not even considering the evidence
before passing judgment.
The theories posted weren't necessarily *mine*, and I never said they
were. I wanted people to weigh in with their own interpretations of the
evidence. *You*, however, seemed to think it was somehow insulting "RHPS"
to even *suggest* that the film had this subtext. Your second goal seemed
to be discrediting *me*. In effect, YOU were the one who made this
personal, not me.
--Joe--
P.S. - This newsgroup has gotten a little dull lately. I think it needs a
little contention now and again. Argument is nothing to shy away from.
--
Sunci Nikolic
well, probably some of you guys think, that scotty is a nazi. but you're
wrong. just the fact, that he raise his left (*not* the right) arm when
he says "...through space and, who knows, perhaps even time itself." let
me know that he wasn't. he's nothing else than a guy with a german
accent. you search to far... it seems like you WANT that there are
references to nazis...
i guess that richard built the character "scott" after he saw "dr. x".
'cause there's a guy in it with a wheelchair - and i guess, he had also
a german accent (but i'm not quite sure) and he was a doctor. as i saw
this guy the first time in dr. x, my reaction was "my god... he looks
like scotty". well... perhaps i'm wrong but it doesn't matter. it's just
my theorie. we don't know the sense of our movie. it's just 4 fun - and
you don't have to think about it!
just don't dream it and be it - that's all what richard wanted to says
with it.
sunci
JabberWokky
On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Sunci Nikolic wrote:
> well, probably some of you guys think, that scotty is a nazi. but you're
> wrong. just the fact, that he raise his left (*not* the right) arm when
> he says "...through space and, who knows, perhaps even time itself." let
> me know that he wasn't. he's nothing else than a guy with a german
> accent. you search to far... it seems like you WANT that there are
> references to nazis...
I've always been dead certain that Scotty was a direct reference to
Dr. Strangelove. The film is certainly a classic, easily ranking among
all the SF that O'Brien references during RHS & RHPS.
The Doctor in Strangelove kept thrusting his arm out, and was in a
wheelchair, and was certainly German. The strong insinuation was that he
was a Nazi. If Dr. Scott is based on that character, then he
certainly (and understandably) has some echos of the Nazi references.
Wow... it's been a long time since I watched Strangelove... about
time to rent the flick again.
--
Evan "JabberWokky" E. http://www.flinet.com/~jw
Grok codep? Frodo Lives! Let's do the Time Warp Again!
Rob Lent
JabberWokky <j...@shell.flinet.com> taught us that:
Oh, my head hurts from banging it into the wall over this thread. :-)
There are a few things just thrown out of left field in this movie,
like the "Dr. VON Scott" line... it comes out of nowhere, and it
disappears right away...
I interpreted the original post as someone just throwing in a fire
bomb into the group, and see who would run around burning
and screaming. And I didn't bring marshmallows.
When they go "Just what are you implying?" I yell "He's Bob Dole!"
Rob
Neil Lambert
In article <3277891c...@news.cyberhighway.net>,
pen...@cyberhighway.net (Pendragon) wrote:
>
>
>Thank you... Analyzing RHPS? UGH! Will the politics never end!!!!!
>
Huhhuh... Hey Beavis, he said "Anal"
JabberWokky
On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Rob Lent wrote:
> Oh, my head hurts from banging it into the wall over this thread. :-)
How's the wall feel? :)
> There are a few things just thrown out of left field in this movie,
> like the "Dr. VON Scott" line... it comes out of nowhere, and it
> disappears right away...
Oh, now... I think most everything has a reason to be in there...
little thinks like props and scenery were possibly randomish, but the
*lines* all were carefully thought out. O'Brien was thinking of
*something* when he created Dr. Scott's character, and since the whole
movie is references, we're just playing "What was Richard thinking of
when he wrote this into the script?"
Obviously, there was supposed to be some sort of revelation... Brad
reacts quite strongly, and the phrase "Just what are you implying?" is
used, and Dr. Scott gets a much heavier German accent for the next few
lines.
What we are trying to do (other than Troll), is to answer the
question -- Just what *was* he implying?
Aurienne
In article <55728a$q...@nntp1.best.com>, Zenin <ze...@best.com> wrote:
>[Posted and mailed]
>
>Jerry R. Blevins <jrbl...@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu> wrote:
>: skits on "Saturday Night Live," not a "personal attack."
>
> Usenet. When making comments like that don't assume that people
> will catch the reference (I didn't, and I've watched more then my
> fair share of SNL). Always, after a line like that put a simile.
> or there abouts. :)
>
> Since electronic messages lack the body language people
> normaly use to put comments like your's in the correct context, the
> use of similes is needed to keep from being misunderstood. In some
> cases you may want to push the point further by using lines like:
> :-) <--For the humor impaired.
>
metaphors are also often appropropiate. ;) <-- for the grammatically
impaired, get out your _Strunk&White_
--
"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of
a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the
top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." --Robert Pirsig
Please reply to auri...@charm.net, i'm working on switching my acct.
Sunci Nikolic
> There are a few things just thrown out of left field in this movie,
> like the "Dr. VON Scott" line... it comes out of nowhere, and it
> disappears right away...
hmmm... all those persons with a "von" title are originally from the
"high society" - so, they felt that they are something "better" than
other persons. i interprete this line like this; "go on dr. scott - you
goddamn faultfinder" that was the 1st thing rushed into my mind as i saw
the movie for the first time...
sunci
**************************************************************************
* Forces of Darkness * The Rocky Horror Fan Club Switzerland *
* c/o Sunci Nikolic * Weinbergstrasse 6 * 5430 Wettingen * Switzerland *
mailto:su...@world.ch * http://www.wintermute.ch/~wintermute/rhps.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DON'T DREAM IT - BE IT !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
he can't even hear you
when chickens get a taste of your meat
when he sucks you deep
sometimes you're nothing but meat <> Tori Amos <>
**************************************************************************
Jay R. Ashworth
The Happy Hacker (jef...@donet.com) wrote:
: Jerry R. Blevins wrote:
: > Looking at it this way, Frank seems like a Nazi.
: > --Joe--
: You are warped.
Aren't we _all_?
: The movie embraces all that is politically incorrect,
: true, but then Dr. Scott (who I play) finally gives in to absolute
: pleasure.
So it does. Can we all stop picking on Jerry now?
: Member of "The Dayton Affair", Rocky Horror Picture Show in Dayton, Ohio
Love the name...
Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth j...@scfn.thpl.lib.fl.us
Production Stage Manager Junk Mail Will Be Billed For.
Interchangeable Parts II *FLASH: Craig Shergold aw'better; call 800-215-1333*
Seminole, Florida http://members.aol.com/kyop/rhps.html +1 813 790 2990
Proud Members, Transvestites Local 69