Tools from cold chisels?
George Watson
woodworking tools from I want to make my own wood chisels and carving gouges
Since cold chisels are meant for metal and stone they might be a suitable
source of the right kind of steel also they are easy to get and not too
expensive?
Judging by the price of woodworking tools im going to save quite a lot of
money by making my own.
Many thanks in advance for any advice you can give me on this
Geoprge
Dick Wollt
are fairly soft to prevent shattering, and may not harden well.
Several sources for good steel for woodworking tools that I've used (learned
from my father, are:
Old files - grind off the teeth to reduce the chance of cracking.
Leaf springs from trucks or older model cars.
Coil springs - takes some forge work to straighten, but nice steel.
Power hacksaw blades - lovely steel. Dad made kitchen knives that would flex
90 deg but only needed sharpening once every 2 or 3 years.
Dick W
"George Watson" <geo...@tesco.net> wrote in message
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> but they are fairly soft to prevent shattering, and may not
> harden well.
Supposed to be ~1080 but spark testing has shown me they are less
than that.
> Several sources for good steel for woodworking tools that I've
> used (learned from my father, are:
> Old files - grind off the teeth to reduce the chance of cracking.
Yep. :) They are what's referred to as "1.22% carbon steel" in the
ASM books. ~6 out of my 60+ files are higer carbon content than
that tho. Higher carbon helps with edge retention.
> Leaf springs from trucks or older model cars.
> Coil springs - takes some forge work to straighten, but nice steel.
Those are basically the same steel and usually referred to as 5160.
There's a bunch of different alloys tho, they use them as they get
them and also they are formulated for the thickness of the spring
and price etc... but they all boil down to being just like 5160.
> Power hacksaw blades - lovely steel. Dad made kitchen knives that
> would flex 90 deg but only needed sharpening once every 2 or 3
> years.
> Dick W
That's my favorite stuff, high speed steel usually M2. It takes and
holds an edge better than anything else me and a bunch of my buddies
have ever messed with.
> "George Watson" <geo...@tesco.net> wrote in message
> > Does anyone know if cold chisels would make good steel for
> > making woodworking tools from I want to make my own wood
> > chisels and carving gouges
I've just finished going through all this with a guy from the
woodcarving newsgroup. :) For simple knives the best to be had are
those made from "hard-back" non-flexible power hacksaw blades.
If/when you're serious about making your own post here and we can go
over which ones are worth making knives from and which ones are a
waste of time. (the bi-metal ones are obvious and I wasn't talking
about them there:)
There's a guy selling all that stuff on the internet and makes the
gouges from O1 drill rod and the knives from HSS. The "wood carver"
sent me a Jpeg...
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/knivesgouges.jpg
I was wanting to make a couple knives for him so he could go and
brag about HSS to his friends.. but no need for me to make any now
the word is already out in that crowd. :)
> > Since cold chisels are meant for metal and stone they might be a
> > suitable source of the right kind of steel also they are easy to
> > get and not too expensive?
They are made "not to break" as opposed to be the best edge holders.
Files are opposite of that.
Hoof rasps are heat treated for maximum edge holding using similar
carbon content to cold chisels, so the steel isn't a -bad- choice
just not the best choice IMO.
> > Judging by the price of woodworking tools im going to save quite
> > a lot of money by making my own.
> > Geoprge
Cool but like re-loading your own shells I don't reccomend it for
those only wanting to save money. At the same time I wouldn't be
into guns if it weren't for re-loading. :)
Same with making knives.
Alvin in AZ (hobby knifemaker/fixer)
Charly the Bastard
5160, cheap, easy to find, easy to forge, easy to heat treat. Will take and
hold a razor edge. work at orange, quench at bright cherry in oil, draw in the
cook stove to 375 degrees for an hour then air cool to ambient... Rc 56-58.
Greyangel
is finicky and requires a lot of normalizing to keep in intact. (me? I
don't know nothin')
Greyangel
"Charly the Bastard" <nitecr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:408511BF...@worldnet.att.net...
Ted Edwards
> You make it sound so simple. Up to now all have heard about 5160 is that it
> is finicky and requires a lot of normalizing to keep in intact.
That's what most car/truck springs are usually made of. I have made
quite a number of metal, both smith'n and machining, and wood tools from
them and have had good success. What you've heard is wrong.
One should always normalize before hardening. This is true for most
hardenable steels.
Ted
Charly the Bastard
I've only had one crumble on me, and that was from an oooollld piece of stock
that came from a springpack from the Thirties.
Use 'new' stock and don't have any troubles. I've never had a lick of trouble
forming 5160, welding 5160, machining 5160, polishing 5160, sharpening 5160...
Compared to the 6160 axle stock, it works like butter. (I LOVE metal with a
memory, forging five times is sooooo much more fun that forging once.) YMMV
Charly
Greyangel
> Compared to the 6160 axle stock, it works like butter. (I LOVE metal with
a
> memory, forging five times is sooooo much more fun that forging once.)
YMMV
>
> Charly
Guess I need my acronym dictionary for YMMV but is it safe to assume you are
being sarcastic? Or could you explain?
Greyangel
Gary Brady
"Your mileage may vary"
Gary Brady
Austin, TX
Daniel Dillman
> Guess I need my acronym dictionary for YMMV but is it safe to assume
you are
> being sarcastic? Or could you explain?
Your Mileage May Vary
Daniel
Greyangel
"Daniel Dillman" <ddil...@mn.astound.NOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:c66te5$os6$1...@news.astound.net...
Of course, silly me.
Charly the Bastard
Sorry, I guess that dates me. That came from the Olde Dayes, when 300 baud was
lightning fast and memory was measured in Kbytes.
Seriously, I use a LOT of 5160 and am quite happy with the results, and being
a lazy SOB, I don't use metal that requires a lot of sweaty hard work to
fabricate. It makes GREAT swords with performance that will absolutely blow
your mind. Chop right through an 'A pillar' in a car, coupe to convertible in
a half dozen strokes, flex in excess of 45 degrees out of true and spring back
to true a million times, get run over by a tank without damage, drive it into
a rockface and use it for a diving board, this stuff is the 'miracle metal'
that the Vikings wished for. It will take and hold a 'hair popping sharp'
edge, and the chrome in the alloy helps resist corrosion.
And it's Cheap! I give a buck a pound, and it comes in bar or round in 20'
sticks in sizes from about 1.5 by .200 to 6 by 1 for bar and .3 to almost 2 in
round.
Good stuff Maynard...
Charly
Greyangel
reading and based on availability first and properties second, I was leaning
toward 5160. I have been trying to track down 1060 and having a REAL hard
time of it - for the sizes I want. If I can oil quench it without having to
carefully temperture control the quench oil and do ballpark normalizations
and critical and NOT have jump three times in counterspin to the moon while
chanting imprecations at Thor the All Father then it sounds good to me.
BTW, (uh... oh yeah) I did my first quench ever last night and the first
real strong impression that I had of the experience (well right after "Woa!
the bubbles are cool!) was that there is this incredible smell hanging
around my work. Actually it's my wife who noticed it most. I used gear oil
'cause it was cheap in volume and the auto stop. Is there a recommended oil
quench that doesnt smell quite so strongly?
Greyangel
"Charly the Bastard" <nitecr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:4087D0C6...@worldnet.att.net...
alv...@xx.com
> time of it - for the sizes I want.
Those rectangular-section rail anchors are about 1060.
Not the right size?
> If I can oil quench it...
In thin sections like knife blades, oil will work on water hardening
steels like 1095. That's what I have personal experience with.
> I used gear oil 'cause it was cheap in volume and the auto stop.
Holy $#!#. :(
ATF! ;)
Ok but I got to tell you ATF will smaoke to beat hell and every
once in a while a ball of fire will roll (roaring;) up through the
smoke! Don't stand in the smoke with polyester clothes on. ;)
Real quenching oil hardly smokes at all, has additives for that and
to increase the speed and modifying the cooling curve etc too, plus
the additives were chosen to keep the good aspects of it going as
long as posible.
Quenching oil that stops working right has to be changed out so it's
been a competition to make some that holds up well and does a good
job. Getting the "real thing" for a hobbist just makes it so you
only have to buy it once and eliminate quenching problems at the
same time. win/win
> Is there a recommended oil quench that doesnt smell quite so
> strongly?
> Greyangel
I got my quenching oil from Brownell's (dealer prices) but I
recommend calling around to the industrial oil/fuel suppliers and
buy a 5 gallon bucket of it. It'll work better for you, you won't
be able to wear it out so as long as you keep water out of it, and
covered, it'll last you a lifetime.
I use a Coka-Cola stainless steel tank with the top cut off for a
quench tank. Got it from the scrap yard, cut off the top third and
sold that hunk back to them. ;) I've got 2 gallons of oil in it.
I figure you'll want something bigger. A large target is important
for small thin water hardeing parts. You need to do it fast. Pull
it from the fire and as fast as you can without missing the tank or
knocking the tank over get it in the oil. :)
I could use another gallon of quenching oil. If I buy one more
gallon from Brownell's I'll have more money in it than if I'd bought
a five gallon bucket from a local oil supplier... without dealer
prices. :/ And with shipping being a larger percentage of the sale
it's gotten almost out of hand.
Back in the 80's a guy could mail order stuff and pay less than
the "sale tax percentage" (5%) on the shipping ...about 4% ...on
automotive goodies and guns and knives. (used to have an FFL and
a Case knife dealership too)
Alvin in AZ
Greyangel
> > I have been trying to track down 1060 and having a REAL hard
> > time of it - for the sizes I want.
>
> Those rectangular-section rail anchors are about 1060.
> Not the right size?
The Plates? Take some doing to get it anywhere near shape. I'm not a
masochist but point taken - it'll work for smaller blades (smaller than a
full sword). I could cut one into strips for several knife blades. At some
point I am going to try forge welding but right now I don't have much of a
clue. The square stock creepers are like 1075 right? I figure
straightened and drawn, a piece of that stuff would make a short sword.
But... for fourty or 70 dollars I can get 5160 in 20 foot batches of flat
stock. I could do a lot with that and it wouldn't require a lot of
massaging to get a blade out of it. I think the rail clips are going to
make for some really nice smaller blades though.
>
> > If I can oil quench it...
>
> In thin sections like knife blades, oil will work on water hardening
> steels like 1095. That's what I have personal experience with.
>
> > I used gear oil 'cause it was cheap in volume and the auto stop.
>
> Holy $#!#. :(
>
> ATF! ;)
>
> Ok but I got to tell you ATF will smaoke to beat hell and every
> once in a while a ball of fire will roll (roaring;) up through the
> smoke! Don't stand in the smoke with polyester clothes on. ;)
I didn't really think it was the best thing to use, but I just stopped off
on the way home with a few bucks in my pocket for something that would work.
I had a friend come over to play with my setup and I wanted to try a quench
on this rail clip stuff. It worked. I will check around for some quenching
oil. Things are kind of hard to find in my neck of the woods but it will be
worth the extra trouble to bypass the incredible smell. I stopped into our
one and only serious welding shop and asked about temperture crayons and the
old guy behind the counter looked really pained and said he quit bothering
to stock it. Gave me a lead on another possible dealer though.
>
> Real quenching oil hardly smokes at all, has additives for that and
> to increase the speed and modifying the cooling curve etc too, plus
> the additives were chosen to keep the good aspects of it going as
> long as posible.
>
> Quenching oil that stops working right has to be changed out so it's
> been a competition to make some that holds up well and does a good
> job. Getting the "real thing" for a hobbist just makes it so you
> only have to buy it once and eliminate quenching problems at the
> same time. win/win
>
> > Is there a recommended oil quench that doesnt smell quite so
> > strongly?
> > Greyangel
>
> I got my quenching oil from Brownell's (dealer prices) but I
> recommend calling around to the industrial oil/fuel suppliers and
> buy a 5 gallon bucket of it. It'll work better for you, you won't
> be able to wear it out so as long as you keep water out of it, and
> covered, it'll last you a lifetime.
>
> I use a Coka-Cola stainless steel tank with the top cut off for a
> quench tank. Got it from the scrap yard, cut off the top third and
> sold that hunk back to them. ;) I've got 2 gallons of oil in it.
I have a oxygen cylinder (spell check please) that an over ambitious friend
of my came up with and cut the top off. Yeah I know those things are
dangerous. I was discussing forge designs with my buddy and he happened
into it. Anyway he used a band saw on it and it's big enough to make a
vertical quench tank for swords. I kind of like using the brick forge
design since I can make it to dimension on the fly. Just need to work out
getting the heat better distributed for larger projects. Where was I? Oh
yeah. Anyway I'll be looking into filling the oxygen bottle with a more
appropriate quenching medium.
>
> I figure you'll want something bigger. A large target is important
> for small thin water hardeing parts. You need to do it fast. Pull
> it from the fire and as fast as you can without missing the tank or
> knocking the tank over get it in the oil. :)
I figure I was about 1 maybe two seconds from the fire to the quench when I
did this last piece. Worked find when I had the steel hot enough. Possibly
the first one didn't go off because of the transfer time though. I don't
really have a handle on the color thing yet and no real idea of actual
temperture. I don't have the luxury of a closed shop so I have to do this
as the sun is going down in order to really see it well.
Charly the Bastard
> OK, I'd like dozen... wha? oh yeah. Sold me! I've been doing a lot of
> reading and based on availability first and properties second, I was leaning
> toward 5160. I have been trying to track down 1060 and having a REAL hard
> time of it - for the sizes I want. If I can oil quench it without having to
> carefully temperture control the quench oil and do ballpark normalizations
> and critical and NOT have jump three times in counterspin to the moon while
> chanting imprecations at Thor the All Father then it sounds good to me.
> BTW, (uh... oh yeah) I did my first quench ever last night and the first
> real strong impression that I had of the experience (well right after "Woa!
> the bubbles are cool!) was that there is this incredible smell hanging
> around my work. Actually it's my wife who noticed it most. I used gear oil
> 'cause it was cheap in volume and the auto stop. Is there a recommended oil
> quench that doesnt smell quite so strongly?
>
> Greyangel
I use veterinary grade mineral oil. No stink, no 'anti foaming' metallic soaps,
available in gallons at the Feed and Seed, doesn't wear out, consistent results
at room temperature. It Does catch fire though, wear gloves. I'm using the same
batch that I filled the tank with a decade ago, still crystal clear to the
bottom of the tank. Full hard is a Rc 62-63, that seems to be plenty, and the
scale wipes right off.
Charly
Ernie Leimkuhler
<nitecr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
I just tried this on a few blades for a friend.
Mineral oil is definitely the better way to go.
alv...@xx.com
> <alv...@XX.com> wrote in message news:c6eill$be1$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> > > I have been trying to track down 1060 and having a REAL hard
> > > time of it - for the sizes I want.
> >
> > Those rectangular-section rail anchors are about 1060.
> > Not the right size?
> The Plates?
Rail anchors not "tie plates"... You showed pictures of them...
~/temp/image4.jpg...
The left and center ones are crummy but familiar with all there of
those. The "straight-back one" I'd forgot all about, thanks for the
picture. :)
> Take some doing to get it anywhere near shape. I'm not a
> masochist but point taken - it'll work for smaller blades (smaller than a
> full sword). I could cut one into strips for several knife blades. At some
> point I am going to try forge welding but right now I don't have much of a
> clue.
> The square stock creepers are like 1075 right? I figure
> straightened and drawn, a piece of that stuff would make a short sword.
> But... for fourty or 70 dollars I can get 5160 in 20 foot batches of flat
> stock. I could do a lot with that and it wouldn't require a lot of
> massaging to get a blade out of it. I think the rail clips are going to
> make for some really nice smaller blades though.
5160 is a sweet way to go! :) Hard to beat that stuff for swords
unless the hamon line on Japanese swords is wanted then it needs a
low Mn content straight carbon steel like 1070?.
That sentence is stretching the limits of my real knowledge about
swords. :/
> > Ok but I got to tell you ATF will smoke to beat hell and every
> > once in a while a ball of fire will roll (roaring;) up through the
> > smoke! Don't stand in the smoke with polyester clothes on. ;)
> I stopped into our one and only serious welding shop and asked
> about temperture crayons and the old guy behind the counter looked
> really pained and said he quit bothering to stock it. Gave me a
> lead on another possible dealer though.
I don't know anything about blacksmithing really so this might be
a stupid question... what do you need the "Temple-Sticks" for?
> > I figure you'll want something bigger. A large target is important
> > for small thin water hardeing parts. You need to do it fast. Pull
> > it from the fire and as fast as you can without missing the tank or
> > knocking the tank over get it in the oil. :)
I should have said- "a big target is important for long-thin water
hardening parts".
Some steels need less than a second to quench to -catch- the
"austenite" (orange-hot soft stuff) and bring it down to below
1000F in one second (for 1080) so that it will decompose into
"martensite" (extra hard brittle stuff) instead of decomposing to
"pearlite" (medium-hard tough stuff) like what railroad rail and
the top-half of a cold chisel is made of.
That information is from "isothermal transformation diagrams".
The "point" on the curved line of the graph that you've got to
get around is call the "knee". The knee for O1 tool steel is at
"1100F and 7 seconds" and is an oil hardening steel.
5160 (it's like tool steel type-220 or a certain kind of L2) I don't
have a IT graph of it. :/ Never got around to buying the book that
has it. ;)
A 3/4" thick rod of 1080 and oil quenched won't work for full
martenite transformation, not even the surface. For oil quenching
1080 etc they have to be thin for oil to get full hardness. But
full hardness may not be what you want in a sword. :)
The 3/4" 1080 rod's surface will be 15% pearlite and 85% martenisite
and the core will be 100% pearlite. Fig. 5-16 ASM's Tool Steels by
Roberts and Cary. ;)
I'm ASM's #1 parrot on the internet! :)
> I figure I was about 1 maybe two seconds from the fire to the
> quench when I did this last piece. Worked find when I had the
> steel hot enough. Possibly the first one didn't go off because of
> the transfer time though. I don't really have a handle on the
> color thing yet and no real idea of actual temperture. I don't
> have the luxury of a closed shop so I have to do this as the sun
> is going down in order to really see it well.
That stuff might have some Mo in it! :)
Steel metallurgy math...
1 + 1 = 4 ;)
You can put in 2% Cr for example or...
1/2% Cr plus 1/2% Mo and get the same effect.
Not exactly, but that's the idea. 1+1=4
Weird huh? Explains why so many steels have a shit-pot full of
different alloying elements don't it? ;)
Alvin in AZ
Eide
turkeys. Works great, hasn't gotten rancid yet!
Eide
"Charly the Bastard" <nitecr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:408C07DC...@worldnet.att.net...
Martin H. Eastburn
smoke.
It is often used to 'float' leaded PCB's to re-flow the solder and give it a
beautiful coating.
Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer old...@pacbell.net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
Greyangel
>
> Rail anchors not "tie plates"... You showed pictures of them...
>
> ~/temp/image4.jpg...
>
> The left and center ones are crummy but familiar with all there of
> those. The "straight-back one" I'd forgot all about, thanks for the
> picture. :)
I haven't had time to play with it yet. Your saying the square stock is no
good? The one on the right is channel stock. Least amount of steel in the
batch. I was hoping the square stuff was good since I could fairly easily
draw it to the length and thickness I want.
> 5160 is a sweet way to go! :) Hard to beat that stuff for swords
> unless the hamon line on Japanese swords is wanted then it needs a
> low Mn content straight carbon steel like 1070?.
I'm not overly concerned with things like Hamon at this stage. I will be
happy if I can turn out a reasonably good blade at all
>
> That sentence is stretching the limits of my real knowledge about
> swords. :/
I'd heard that its really tough to get a Hamon line out of 5160. So long as
you can get a hard edge and a softer back then the goal is accomplished...
Unless you need visual proof of the differential hardening. I suppose it
would be a selling point. See my goal is to become a reasonably good
bladesmith and then do it as a retirement fund kind of thing. I figure I
have about 20 years to get it right.
>
> I don't know anything about blacksmithing really so this might be
> a stupid question... what do you need the "Temple-Sticks" for?
I just wanted to verify actual temperature while I'm working it so that I
can coordinate all these bits and pieces of wisdom into the work. Once I
get to know how everything looks and acts then I don't think I would need
it. Then again, any time you start working a new kind of metal the rules
change.
>
> > > I figure you'll want something bigger. A large target is important
> > > for small thin water hardeing parts. You need to do it fast. Pull
> > > it from the fire and as fast as you can without missing the tank or
> > > knocking the tank over get it in the oil. :)
>
> I should have said- "a big target is important for long-thin water
> hardening parts".
I'd heard it said that with oil quenches you want volume to offset the
tendancy to flash. I found a turkey roasting pan and filled it mostly up to
do 12 inches of blade stock. Seemed to work pretty well. I do want to put
together a tank for doing swords.
>
> A 3/4" thick rod of 1080 and oil quenched won't work for full
> martenite transformation, not even the surface. For oil quenching
> 1080 etc they have to be thin for oil to get full hardness. But
> full hardness may not be what you want in a sword. :)
>
> The 3/4" 1080 rod's surface will be 15% pearlite and 85% martenisite
> and the core will be 100% pearlite. Fig. 5-16 ASM's Tool Steels by
> Roberts and Cary. ;)
I figure most of what I will do will be between .2 and .3 inches thick. .3
seems to work really cool for big ugly blades that only Conan would actually
try to swing. I don't care for flat sword blades with a small bevel at the
edge thing. Makes 'em look like cheap wall hangers. Better to have a
thicker back with a long bevel.
>
> I'm ASM's #1 parrot on the internet! :)
>
> > I figure I was about 1 maybe two seconds from the fire to the
> > quench when I did this last piece. Worked find when I had the
> > steel hot enough. Possibly the first one didn't go off because of
> > the transfer time though. I don't really have a handle on the
> > color thing yet and no real idea of actual temperture. I don't
> > have the luxury of a closed shop so I have to do this as the sun
> > is going down in order to really see it well.
>
> That stuff might have some Mo in it! :)
All that I am really sure of is that it's not your basic steel. I really
want do do some comparative experimentation with a known medium carbon
steel.
Greyangel
> I use veterinary grade mineral oil. No stink, no 'anti foaming' metallic
soaps,
> available in gallons at the Feed and Seed, doesn't wear out, consistent
results
> at room temperature. It Does catch fire though, wear gloves. I'm using
the same
> batch that I filled the tank with a decade ago, still crystal clear to the
> bottom of the tank. Full hard is a Rc 62-63, that seems to be plenty, and
the
> scale wipes right off.
>
> Charly
Cool! I'll start calling around. We still have feed stores in these parts.
As long as its usual stuff for weekend ranchers.
Greyangel
Charly the Bastard
I experimented with clay masks for a bit, I didn't get the hard hamon, more of a
difference in luster. It did differential harden though, upwards of 10 points
Rc, depending on the mask thickness. The real problem is 5160 doesn't like water
a bit, forget brine. I actually had one tear itself apart from the edge inward
in brine, little hairline cracks spaced about one thickness apart. Hung it on
the Wall to remind me.
>
> >
> > I don't know anything about blacksmithing really so this might be
> > a stupid question... what do you need the "Temple-Sticks" for?
>
> I just wanted to verify actual temperature while I'm working it so that I
> can coordinate all these bits and pieces of wisdom into the work. Once I
> get to know how everything looks and acts then I don't think I would need
> it. Then again, any time you start working a new kind of metal the rules
> change.
>
Temps for SAE 5160, data from "The Heat Treater's Guide" original data from
Bethlehem Steel Corp.
Forge above 2000 F (orange-yellow)
Normalize: Bring to 1600 F and air cool in still air.(cherry pink)
Anneal/spheroidize: Bring to 1380 F and decrease 75 F per hour to ambient.(fire
truck red)
Harden: Bring to 1575 F and quench in oil until convection no longer visible in
tank, Full Hard Rc 62-63 (bright cherry red)
Draw to desired hardness in oven for one hour and cool to ambient in still air.
(min temp aprox 300 F)
>
> >
> > > > I figure you'll want something bigger. A large target is important
> > > > for small thin water hardeing parts. You need to do it fast. Pull
> > > > it from the fire and as fast as you can without missing the tank or
> > > > knocking the tank over get it in the oil. :)
> >
> > I should have said- "a big target is important for long-thin water
> > hardening parts".
>
> I'd heard it said that with oil quenches you want volume to offset the
> tendancy to flash. I found a turkey roasting pan and filled it mostly up to
> do 12 inches of blade stock. Seemed to work pretty well. I do want to put
> together a tank for doing swords.
>
>
You need volume to take the heat load, unless you don't plan on quenching more
than one at a time in a given day.
My tank is made from six inch pipe welded to a base plate, IIRC it holds about
ten gallons. I quench vertically, point first. Yeah, it flashes fire, but only
until the work is completely submerged, so welding gloves and a leather jacket
are usually enough 'armor'. Watch for hot oil splatter, wear that face shield!
> >
> > A 3/4" thick rod of 1080 and oil quenched won't work for full
> > martenite transformation, not even the surface. For oil quenching
> > 1080 etc they have to be thin for oil to get full hardness. But
> > full hardness may not be what you want in a sword. :)
> >
> > The 3/4" 1080 rod's surface will be 15% pearlite and 85% martenisite
> > and the core will be 100% pearlite. Fig. 5-16 ASM's Tool Steels by
> > Roberts and Cary. ;)
>
> I figure most of what I will do will be between .2 and .3 inches thick. .3
> seems to work really cool for big ugly blades that only Conan would actually
> try to swing. I don't care for flat sword blades with a small bevel at the
> edge thing. Makes 'em look like cheap wall hangers. Better to have a
> thicker back with a long bevel.
>
2" by .291", evidently a fairly popular leaf spring size, judging from the
supply the local shop keeps on hand. (They're really not that bad in the swing,
if balanced properly. If you'd like, we can talk about balance for a meg or
so.) If you just hold it out in an engarde', it'll get heavy, but you don't do
combat with swords by standing around in engarde'. I cheat, I use a mill and
fixtures for the swords. I get better results and it's a hell of a lot easier. I
use a computer controlled oven for HT, you can't beat +1/-3 degrees off the
setpoint for producing reliable repeatable results in production. They've paid
for themselves a dozen times over in the decade I've used them.
>
> >
> > I'm ASM's #1 parrot on the internet! :)
> >
> > > I figure I was about 1 maybe two seconds from the fire to the
> > > quench when I did this last piece. Worked find when I had the
> > > steel hot enough. Possibly the first one didn't go off because of
> > > the transfer time though. I don't really have a handle on the
> > > color thing yet and no real idea of actual temperture. I don't
> > > have the luxury of a closed shop so I have to do this as the sun
> > > is going down in order to really see it well.
> >
> > That stuff might have some Mo in it! :)
>
> All that I am really sure of is that it's not your basic steel. I really
> want do do some comparative experimentation with a known medium carbon
> steel.
>
5160 is the bottom of 'high carbon'. the chrome makes it a little tougher in the
forging, just use a bigger hammer.
Charly
alv...@xx.com
> > The left and center ones are crummy but familiar with all there of
> > those. The "straight-back one" I'd forgot all about, thanks for the
> > picture. :)
> I haven't had time to play with it yet. Your saying the square
> stock is no good?
Oooops, I messed up there, I meant the square stock ones aren't good
creepers. The metal they are made from is prob'ly pretty good stuff
don't remember a creeper ever breaking even when run over by a
derailed car. :) Hmmm... seems like the U section one would get the
"leading ear" broke off tho?
> The one on the right is channel stock. Least amount of steel in
> the batch. I was hoping the square stuff was good since I could
> fairly easily draw it to the length and thickness I want.
Sounds good. :)
> I'd heard that its really tough to get a Hamon line out of 5160.
I don't have any first hand experience with Hamons just read about
them and everything I've read sez 5160 is the wrong steel for those.
> So long as you can get a hard edge and a softer back then the goal
> is accomplished... Unless you need visual proof of the
> differential hardening. I suppose it would be a selling point.
Only one I know for sure where it's needed is on the Japanese stuff.
> See my goal is to become a reasonably good bladesmith and then do
> it as a retirement fund kind of thing. I figure I have about 20
> years to get it right.
If a guy wants to sell stuff I'd recommend the "knife-list" it's an
email list where big names hang out. Used to be on it and it was
cool. There isn't much money in making swords and knives unless you
get famous is what I gathered. $4 an hour was typical at the time
until you started getting a name and that sometimes takes years.
I got off the "knife-list" about the time Bob Engnath died.
> I just wanted to verify actual temperature while I'm working it so
> that I can coordinate all these bits and pieces of wisdom into the
> work. Once I get to know how everything looks and acts then I
> don't think I would need it. Then again, any time you start
> working a new kind of metal the rules change.
Cool idea for blacksmiths now that you explain it that way. :)
...Since (after) you pull it from the fire you can test it. :)
> I'd heard it said that with oil quenches you want volume to offset
> the tendancy to flash.
Large volume is for mutiple quenches of bigger stuff.
The additives in the quenching oil are what stop the fires etc.
Oil changes temperature a lot easier than water does so if they
really do mean keeping the tank of oil from catching fire they are
talking about -way- too small of a tank for what they were doing.
I used a 3/4 gallon olive oil can for a long time and never had that
problem with ATF and was pre-heating the oil too. But I was doing
thin knife blades tho. The real quenching oil just plain ol' works
better for me, I get better results, less warping etc. Much less
smoke, next to no fire, better results, what more could a guy ask
for? ;)
Old oxygen cylinders are easy to come by, some are rejected and some
are stolen and can't be re-filled, so ditched. Only one of those I
found was wanted back by the owner, a copper mining and smelting
outfit near Globe AZ and that was only because I offered take it to
them.
Alvin in AZ
alv...@xx.com
> from the supply the local shop keeps on hand.
Just for interest I wanted to tell this story...
There was a local spring shop that heat treated springs and the guy
claimed that re-heat treating springs didn't work out so good, he
didn't know why. I keep thinking it has something to do with the
surface rust, hydrogen or what it is, I don't know.
Anyway I figure that for sword making there is no real problem with
used leaf or coil springs as long as the surface looks good. ??
Because the re-heat treated springs were, for the most part, working
pretty good just that every once in a while there was trouble and in
a business like theirs a few times is a few times too many. Back
when, they had re-heat treated them for years and then the liability
problems or whatever put a stop to it.
Also... Re-arching was done cold... with a hammer, and still done
that way. :)
Hot rodders would hammer-cold the old leaf springs "from a frown
into a smile" so the eyelets would be on the other side. :)
Alvin in AZ
Greyangel
more of a
> difference in luster. It did differential harden though, upwards of 10
points
> Rc, depending on the mask thickness. The real problem is 5160 doesn't like
water
> a bit, forget brine. I actually had one tear itself apart from the edge
inward
> in brine, little hairline cracks spaced about one thickness apart. Hung it
on
> the Wall to remind me.
This implies that you have another differential hardening method to use?
Can I ask? Never too much information, just so little time.
> > I just wanted to verify actual temperature while I'm working it so that
I
> > can coordinate all these bits and pieces of wisdom into the work. Once
I
> > get to know how everything looks and acts then I don't think I would
need
> > it. Then again, any time you start working a new kind of metal the
rules
> > change.
>
> Temps for SAE 5160, data from "The Heat Treater's Guide" original data
from
> Bethlehem Steel Corp.
>
> Forge above 2000 F (orange-yellow)
Sounds like this railroad steel I've been playing with. After the first
crack in the steel I got really cautions about working it hot and still
managed to fracture it on the edge. I'v been thinking that I tried to move
to much metal too fast. Maybe I just need to keep it even hotter...
> Normalize: Bring to 1600 F and air cool in still air.(cherry pink)
> Anneal/spheroidize: Bring to 1380 F and decrease 75 F per hour to
ambient.(fire
> truck red)
> Harden: Bring to 1575 F and quench in oil until convection no longer
visible in
> tank, Full Hard Rc 62-63 (bright cherry red)
> Draw to desired hardness in oven for one hour and cool to ambient in still
air.
> (min temp aprox 300 F)
>
> > I'd heard it said that with oil quenches you want volume to offset the
> > tendancy to flash. I found a turkey roasting pan and filled it mostly
up to
> > do 12 inches of blade stock. Seemed to work pretty well. I do want to
put
> > together a tank for doing swords.
>
> You need volume to take the heat load, unless you don't plan on quenching
more
> than one at a time in a given day.
>
> My tank is made from six inch pipe welded to a base plate, IIRC it holds
about
> ten gallons. I quench vertically, point first. Yeah, it flashes fire, but
only
> until the work is completely submerged, so welding gloves and a leather
jacket
> are usually enough 'armor'. Watch for hot oil splatter, wear that face
shield!
Been thinking about using a cut off oxygen bottle for this. Lot of oil but
the vertical thing makes sense for long blades. Thanks for the flash
warning though, I thought that might be a problem with vertical tanks.
> 2" by .291", evidently a fairly popular leaf spring size, judging from the
> supply the local shop keeps on hand.
Local shop??!! Christ, our local steel supplier claims they can't get any
spring steel of any kind. I have spent day and days trying different
sources on the net to locate 1050 or 1060 in guages upward of a quarter
inch. Finally had some luck with Security Steel.
>(They're really not that bad in the swing,
> if balanced properly. If you'd like, we can talk about balance for a meg
or
> so.)
By all means! Tell me what balance means to you? Is it in the taper of the
blade, the counter weight of the hand grip and pommel? I'm working on a
broadsword that is a straight blade for about 32 inches till just before the
tip. The pommel I made for it is like a half pound and it has an extra
heavy duty cross guard. I figure only Conan would actually try to swing
this thing. I'm doing it as a dry run so to speak. I'll hang it on the
wall when I get done.
>If you just hold it out in an engarde', it'll get heavy, but you don't do
> combat with swords by standing around in engarde'. I cheat, I use a mill
and
> fixtures for the swords. I get better results and it's a hell of a lot
easier. I
> use a computer controlled oven for HT, you can't beat +1/-3 degrees off
the
> setpoint for producing reliable repeatable results in production. They've
paid
> for themselves a dozen times over in the decade I've used them.
Cheater...No offense! Sounds like you do this for a living. You have a Web
site I can see your work? Do you make real money doing this? I keep
looking for ways to get the hell out of the city and still make a living.
Charly the Bastard
>
Massive snippage
>
> This implies that you have another differential hardening method to use?
> Can I ask? Never too much information, just so little time.
>
I've found that 5160 works best as a deep hardening alloy, differential
quenching was more effort that it was worth in the end. With swords, you want
some spring in the final piece, to resist shock impact failure. There is a lot
of bending force in a chop, with a homogenous blade you want some give.
>
> Sounds like this railroad steel I've been playing with. After the first
> crack in the steel I got really cautions about working it hot and still
> managed to fracture it on the edge. I'v been thinking that I tried to move
> to much metal too fast. Maybe I just need to keep it even hotter...
>
Usually, a crack under forging means too cold, or too much movement in a single
stroke. Don't try to forge a razor edge, that's what grinders are for. Leave the
edge at least a sixteenth of an inch thick, then work it by stock removal.
>
>
> Been thinking about using a cut off oxygen bottle for this. Lot of oil but
> the vertical thing makes sense for long blades. Thanks for the flash
> warning though, I thought that might be a problem with vertical tanks.
>
Good plan, but weld it to a baseplate to increase the footprint on the floor.
Tall oil-filled tanks are inherently tippy, and a couple layers of cinderblocks
on the baseplate bring the center of gravity down low where it's safe.
>
>
> Local shop??!! Christ, our local steel supplier claims they can't get any
> spring steel of any kind. I have spent day and days trying different
> sources on the net to locate 1050 or 1060 in guages upward of a quarter
> inch. Finally had some luck with Security Steel.
>
Check the Yalu Pages for spring fabrication shops, they are usually quite
friendly to makers, and they usually have scrap end piles to dig through for
cheap.
>
>
> By all means! Tell me what balance means to you? Is it in the taper of the
> blade, the counter weight of the hand grip and pommel? I'm working on a
> broadsword that is a straight blade for about 32 inches till just before the
> tip. The pommel I made for it is like a half pound and it has an extra
> heavy duty cross guard. I figure only Conan would actually try to swing
> this thing. I'm doing it as a dry run so to speak. I'll hang it on the
> wall when I get done.
>
Balance is a compromise between follow through inertia and manuverability. The
closer to the guard, the better the mauverability, but the less the follow
through inertia. Sort of like the difference between a sprint boat and an
aircraft carrier. The traditional balance point for one-hand swords was
one-seventh the distance from the guard to the point, which gives a fairly good
feel in the hand, insures that the sword will hang properly on the hip, and
maintains enough FTI to cleave through armor and keep cutting. Being a retired
Airframe Mech, weight and balance are second nature. You have three weights to
work with; the blade, the guard, and the knob. the blade will have a natural CG,
and this can be found by balancing the blade on a round rod, like a
teeter-totter. After you find the CG for the blade, you can start doing the math
to find out how much each other weight will move the CG toward the desired
balance point. Polish up those solid geometry skills, they'll help with design.
Steel weighs 7.9 grams per cubic centimeter, alloy doesn't matter that much
unless you use something with tungsten in it, which will be heavier. Brass and
bronze are on average 7% heavier than steel per volume, but don't have the
structural strength of steel, a serious consideration for guards. Weight in the
knob will move the CG more than weight in the guard, having a longer lever arm
to act upon, and that's what we're after, moving the CG to the desired
location.. It's all first class lever math, do it on a cheapo calc. Weight X
lever arm length = moment of inertia. Get the same moment on each side of the
CG and the sword is balanced. I make a 30" blade parallel edge Viking sword,
with a one hand grip. It takes a two pound knob to drag the CG back to four
inches in front of the guard. This sounds like a lot, but the feel of the sword
when it's moving is pure joy. One of my 'Large Lad' customers took down a four
inch diameter oak tree in a single stroke. That's like chopping through a fence
post... It's been lotsa years since I did the math, I'll dig into the airframe
textbook and post the formulas for moving the CG here later.
>
> Cheater...No offense! Sounds like you do this for a living. You have a Web
> site I can see your work? Do you make real money doing this? I keep
> looking for ways to get the hell out of the city and still make a living.
"Real Money"? Nah, but you can make beer money at it, you might even pay the
bills if you're Really Good and Really Fast. No website, no digital cameras, no
scanner for the fotos my Photograher took before he croaked, po folks here.
Charly
Greyangel
> I've found that 5160 works best as a deep hardening alloy, differential
> quenching was more effort that it was worth in the end. With swords, you
want
> some spring in the final piece, to resist shock impact failure. There is a
lot
> of bending force in a chop, with a homogenous blade you want some give.
So would you use it for a sword or just stick to knives? I thought the
whole point of differential hardening was to provide the softer back and
prevent breakage? Or are you talking about a happy medium between hard edge
and flexibility?
>
> Usually, a crack under forging means too cold, or too much movement in a
single
> stroke. Don't try to forge a razor edge, that's what grinders are for.
Leave the
> edge at least a sixteenth of an inch thick, then work it by stock removal.
I figured that I probably was hammering it too hard after the second time
since I was pretty careful about keeping it hot. Dull red at the absolute
minimum. I wouldn't bother trying to get the edge too thin. I want to be
able to take off some layers to plane the steel out after the forge work.
I *know* I'm not good enough to expect a nice flat surface without some
serious work at the belt sander. I got a nice basic bevel on my last knife
at the fire and then planed it smooth on the belt sander and finished up the
edge with a side grinder and sanding disk. Worked pretty well. If I can
harden it without cracking then I figure I got a good method going. I DON'T
want to do much to the edge after it's hardened. Too labor intensive.
>
> Good plan, but weld it to a baseplate to increase the footprint on the
floor.
> Tall oil-filled tanks are inherently tippy, and a couple layers of
cinderblocks
> on the baseplate bring the center of gravity down low where it's safe.
Good thought for all kinds of reasons. I'll do that.
> Check the Yalu Pages for spring fabrication shops, they are usually quite
> friendly to makers, and they usually have scrap end piles to dig through
for
> cheap.
Never even heard of one. I'll check it out.
Sounds like solid info. Please do add the formula. I skipped most of the
math thing in high school and started at a real disadvantage when I realized
I needed a better education to support my family. I took just enough math
to get my electronics degree and I'm afraid that's getting a bit rusting in
my career life. I do more logic than pure numbers these days and geometry
hardly fits in.
>
> "Real Money"? Nah, but you can make beer money at it, you might even pay
the
> bills if you're Really Good and Really Fast. No website, no digital
cameras, no
> scanner for the fotos my Photograher took before he croaked, po folks
here.
>
> Charly
That was kind of my impression of the bladesmith thing. I've noted that
there are those who sell blades dirt cheap for the implied labor and those
who ask a pretty respectable to almost outrageous price. I wonder about
the available market for the latter type. It would be nice to be in the 2
to 4K sword market some day (when I'm old and grey with a LOT more
experience).
Interesting story: I spent some time working as a bowling ally
mechanic. Got to be the most boring job in the world. You go disloge a
stuck pin about every 20 minutes or so most of the time. Anyway I made a
seudo katana out of mild steel in the back when I wasn't actually working
and had it around for a while. I tweaked the blade hitting an old wooden
chair with it and decided to put it out on a yard sale not long after. Now
this thing was basic with a welded on cross guard and a leather wrapped
handle. Not much to look at. I had it out in the yard sale for all of
about 30 minutes when some guy gladly gave me 40 bucks for it. I tend to
think that there are a lot of folks around with a gut desire to own a sword
and pretty and polished isn't necessarily a selling point. Especially with
so many stainless steel mock ups available these days for dirt cheap.
Greyangel
<alv...@XX.com> wrote in message news:c6jchh$pac$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> > > ~/temp/image4.jpg...
> > > The left and center ones are crummy but familiar with all there of
> > > those. The "straight-back one" I'd forgot all about, thanks for the
> > > picture. :)
> creepers. The metal they are made from is prob'ly pretty good stuff
> don't remember a creeper ever breaking even when run over by a
> derailed car. :) Hmmm... seems like the U section one would get the
> "leading ear" broke off tho?
Leading ear? Leading flat edge of the channel? I did check spark on all
this stuff today. I also found a big piece of what looks like some kind of
double ended drill bit. About half and inch thick by an inch wide and about
6 inches long. I figure it's got to be some kind of tool steel. Anyway it
spark tested with fairly short spark length and a dull color with maybe four
or five spikes at the splitting points. I noticed the color is a bit like
the cement rail clips when compared to the rest. The creepers all had a
longer and brighter spark. There was a some difference in the number of
occurances of split points but all had maybe 5 or more spikes at the splits.
In generall they all seemed to have a much more active spark than the tool
steel and compared to mild steel, a much higher number of spiking. I'm
guessing (hopefull thinking?) that they're all at least a medium carbon
steel and I suppose that the alloy material tends to lend a duller spark
color than straight carbon steel.
alv...@xx.com
> Leading ear? Leading flat edge of the channel?
-U section creepers-
Yeah the "leading ear" ;) ...the ear that got hit first by the
derailed empty car... I can picture it broken off and the second
ear bent flat. Empty cars can be drug for miles and miles and not
derail the rest of the train until it hits a switch or road
crossing... even hop a road crossing some times. Heavy loaded cars
dig up the ties and tear the rail out so the cars behind it derail
all over the place. :)
> I did check spark on all this stuff today. I also found a big
> piece of what looks like some kind of double ended drill bit.
> About half and inch thick by an inch wide and about 6 inches long.
> I figure it's got to be some kind of tool steel. Anyway it spark
> tested with fairly short spark length and a dull color with maybe
> four or five spikes at the splitting points. I noticed the color
> is a bit like the cement rail clips when compared to the rest.
>
> The creepers all had a longer and brighter spark. There was a
> some difference in the number of occurances of split points but
> all had maybe 5 or more spikes at the splits. In generall they all
> seemed to have a much more active spark than the tool steel and
> compared to mild steel, a much higher number of spiking. I'm
> guessing (hopefull thinking?) that they're all at least a medium
> carbon steel and I suppose that the alloy material tends to lend a
> duller spark color than straight carbon steel.
I need to get back to you on that after doing my homework better. :)
But off hand it does sound like a drill bit... it is a drill bit if,
the end of it (sometimes both ends) looks like a drill bit's cutting
edge etc. Spark test next to a twist drill bit from your index, use
the "butt" end and it won't hurt the drill bit.
If/when you find one of those I'm sure it'll be cobalt (inhanced)
HSS like M-42. There were several sizes and I resharpened some of
them just to see if it'd work and it worked "just ok". A guy could
usually drill almost 40 holes with one drill bit if he did
everything just right. Saw blades would cut only about 4 rails.
My feeling is the problem with the saw blades (plain ol M2 ;) was
having to go down through the web was really hard on a few teeth in
the middle of the blade (6 teeth per inch) then the same blade had
to cut the base. Slow progress cutting the base is where the track
foreman would get impatient and change out the saw blade. ...and
give it to me. ;)
Also the surface of the rail is as hard as file teeth or hacksaw
blade teeth from being work hardened. That was rough on the saw
blades, that no drill bit ever had to contend with. :)
Alvin in AZ
Greyangel
<alv...@XX.com> wrote in message news:c6pc0p$scg$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>
> -U section creepers-
> Yeah the "leading ear" ;) ...the ear that got hit first by the
> derailed empty car... I can picture it broken off and the second
> ear bent flat. Empty cars can be drug for miles and miles and not
> derail the rest of the train until it hits a switch or road
> crossing... even hop a road crossing some times. Heavy loaded cars
> dig up the ties and tear the rail out so the cars behind it derail
> all over the place. :)
This kind of thing happen often? I've only seen the one derailment down the
road from my work. Hope not to see it happen again. Took 'em at least a
week just to get all the debris out of the way. They had cars like shredded
aluminum cans all over the place.
> I need to get back to you on that after doing my homework better. :)
>
> But off hand it does sound like a drill bit... it is a drill bit if,
> the end of it (sometimes both ends) looks like a drill bit's cutting
> edge etc. Spark test next to a twist drill bit from your index, use
> the "butt" end and it won't hurt the drill bit.
>
> If/when you find one of those I'm sure it'll be cobalt (inhanced)
> HSS like M-42. There were several sizes and I resharpened some of
> them just to see if it'd work and it worked "just ok". A guy could
> usually drill almost 40 holes with one drill bit if he did
> everything just right. Saw blades would cut only about 4 rails.
No question in my mind that the one piece is a drill bit. Larger than most
I have seen but definately a bit.
Started hammering out one of the creepers tonight. Rough job. I've only
started to get it straightened out and I'll be days drawing out to a usable
thickness. Interesting thing; the straight length of the creeper is about
seven or eight inches but as you know these are quite thick. I started
reworking a leaf spring knife I have had around for several years waiting to
be finished. its about two inches wide and a good quarter inch thick and
long enough to qualify as a short sword if the design was different. It
weighs less in the hand than the creeper does. I figure the creeper should
easily come out to the size of one of those Japanese half swords (forget
the name at the moment- old age creeping in). If I can get the forge weld
thing working I could fuse two of them for a full sword blade. Lots of fuel
getting there though.
> My feeling is the problem with the saw blades (plain ol M2 ;) was
> having to go down through the web was really hard on a few teeth in
> the middle of the blade (6 teeth per inch) then the same blade had
> to cut the base. Slow progress cutting the base is where the track
> foreman would get impatient and change out the saw blade. ...and
> give it to me. ;)
>
> Also the surface of the rail is as hard as file teeth or hacksaw
> blade teeth from being work hardened. That was rough on the saw
> blades, that no drill bit ever had to contend with. :)
My rail/anvil has worked out pretty well for hardness. After the banging I
have given it you can hardly see any dents in it. I've been having a little
trouble with introducing a twist into the steel that I'm working because of
the roll off of the rail. Tonight I had two pieces I needed to flatten out
and get on an even plane so I set the rail upside down in the the sand
(using the spot where my seasonal pool sits) and hammered on the the bottom
side of the rail. Actually worked amazingly well. The mass of the rail
sits pretty stable in the sand and kneeling next to it places the work at
just about the right height. I want to carve up a stump so that I can place
the rail topside or bottom side up into it without it wanting to tip over
and I can use which ever side works best for the job. The top is great for
uncurling this railroad steel and the bottom has enough flat workspace for
anything. Especially for really long stuff (like swords of course). Seems
the railroad is the answer to a lot of my needs ;). Can't beat free stuff
and there is more of the creepers and such than I'll ever need.
Greyangel
alv...@xx.com
According the the guys working the UP it happens a lot less than it
did when the SP was running things. :)
When talking about derailments they are characterized by the stuff
piled up or odd ball collection of stuff piled up. Locations are ok
but still, you and everyone there will always remember them by what
was scattered all over the place. Like where you had to climb over
"mountains" of carrots to get back and forth from the truck to the
track or pole line, and so will everyone else. :) Or the lake of
corn syrup with brand new bolts of cloth stuck in it, which was my
first. ;)
> No question in my mind that the one piece is a drill bit. Larger
> than most I have seen but definately a bit.
Flat piece of steel with a tall ridge running down the center, both
sides? The ridge is for indexing/centering it in the drill chuck.
Never figured out a good use for those things. :/
> Started hammering out one of the creepers tonight. Rough job.
> I've only started to get it straightened out and I'll be days
> drawing out to a usable thickness. Interesting thing; the
> straight length of the creeper is about seven or eight inches but
> as you know these are quite thick.
I don't know nuthin' about any of that :) but thought they'd be
almost a foot straightened out. :/
> Tonight I had two pieces I needed to flatten out and get on an
> even plane so I set the rail upside down in the the sand...
I'm not a blacksmith but I am a pretty good hammer mechanic. ;)
And over the years have used just about every little curve or flat
spot including the holes for one job or another. One 2 foot piece
pretty much stays standing on end and gets used that way more than
the rest. It was cut off with the big 30"(?) self propelled chop
saw and the rail end is flat and smooth and hard as a rock. :)
It heat-treated itself see? :)
> ...Especially for really long stuff (like swords of course).
> Seems the railroad is the answer to a lot of my needs ;). Can't
> beat free stuff and there is more of the creepers and such than
> I'll ever need.
> Greyangel
I don't know anything about it for sure really. :/ But I see you
needing something heavier when you get down to business. And I see
the rail's base being too flimsy too. But don't -know-. :/
Check out the scrap yards in your area they sell stuff cheap and a
big hunk of iron that you'll need help loading in your pickup is
right down their alley. :) Call around first, some of the scrap
yards won't let you in or even sell to the public at all but others
are happy as anything to see you. Heck I usually end up helping if
they get really busy. All the time looking to help the fork lift
driver load stuff etc.
Alvin in AZ
ps- I know that I can pound on a pin or part a hundred times as hard
as I can and not budge it and switch to a heavier hammer and the pin
or part will move the first lick... I also know how to fix worn/loose
ball joints and tie rod ends to "be good as new" with a hammer...
does that qualify me as an "ace hammer mecahnic"? :)
Greyangel
<alv...@XX.com> wrote in message news:c6q87s$89m$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>
> > No question in my mind that the one piece is a drill bit. Larger
> > than most I have seen but definately a bit.
>
> Flat piece of steel with a tall ridge running down the center, both
> sides? The ridge is for indexing/centering it in the drill chuck.
> Never figured out a good use for those things. :/
Yep, that's the one. I'm sure it would make something cool. Have to wait
till the need comes up. I've decided I have all the blade material I know
what to do with at this point ('cept for the really long ones unless I get
any good at forge welding). I picked up a couple of odd chucks of metal the
last time I was out there. I was gonna take a picture but haven't got to it
yet. they're about 2x2x3 inches and sort of T shaped with some odd ridges
a in different places. Look like they could almost be sort of a brake shoe
or something. Anyway I put one on the grinder today and discovered that it
has a REALLY odd spark trace. Very dull orange and stay lit for maybe four
inches off the grinder then goes dark. I could hear chunks of it hitting
things around me so I knew that pieces of it were flying but you couldn't
tell from the spark. The oddest part though is that the sparks seemed to
curve about 90 degrees at the end of the visible trajectory. Looks mostly
like steel when your lookin' at it but it seems like it might be a bit soft.
I was going to hammer on it but didn't get to it. Ring any bells? They
have the most unique spark trace of everything I have tried so far. Got me
really curious what kind of metals are in it.
>
> > Started hammering out one of the creepers tonight. Rough job.
> > I've only started to get it straightened out and I'll be days
> > drawing out to a usable thickness. Interesting thing; the
> > straight length of the creeper is about seven or eight inches but
> > as you know these are quite thick.
>
> I don't know nuthin' about any of that :) but thought they'd be
> almost a foot straightened out. :/
Yeah, your probably right. I haven't actually measured it.
>
> > Tonight I had two pieces I needed to flatten out and get on an
> > even plane so I set the rail upside down in the the sand...
>
> I'm not a blacksmith but I am a pretty good hammer mechanic. ;)
> And over the years have used just about every little curve or flat
> spot including the holes for one job or another. One 2 foot piece
> pretty much stays standing on end and gets used that way more than
> the rest. It was cut off with the big 30"(?) self propelled chop
> saw and the rail end is flat and smooth and hard as a rock. :)
Hmm... there is a thought. I have a piece of rail in the driveway that is
about 4 1/2 foot long. Used it for a skaters grind rail for a long time
(don't ask). I never thought of standing it up. Might be handy.
>
> It heat-treated itself see? :)
>
> > ...Especially for really long stuff (like swords of course).
> > Seems the railroad is the answer to a lot of my needs ;). Can't
> > beat free stuff and there is more of the creepers and such than
> > I'll ever need.
> > Greyangel
>
> I don't know anything about it for sure really. :/ But I see you
> needing something heavier when you get down to business. And I see
> the rail's base being too flimsy too. But don't -know-. :/
If I can straighten out one those creepers on the topside and use the bottom
for finish work then life is good. Nothing flimsy about the bottom side as
far as I can tell. I worked a quarter inch thick blade that was about 24
inches long on it for touch up and don't think I disturbed the surface at
all. The top is great for heavy work like drawing out. Time will tell.
>
> Check out the scrap yards in your area they sell stuff cheap and a
> big hunk of iron that you'll need help loading in your pickup is
> right down their alley. :) Call around first, some of the scrap
> yards won't let you in or even sell to the public at all but others
> are happy as anything to see you. Heck I usually end up helping if
> they get really busy. All the time looking to help the fork lift
> driver load stuff etc.
>
> Alvin in AZ
> ps- I know that I can pound on a pin or part a hundred times as hard
> as I can and not budge it and switch to a heavier hammer and the pin
> or part will move the first lick... I also know how to fix worn/loose
Yeah, I could probably use a really big one around for the heavy stuff if I
plan to use scavenged material a lot. Once I get it straightend and drawn
out a bit the three pounder should be fine. Since I am new to this stuff I
need some time to build up the right muscles. I tried working two pieces
simultaneously a short while ago and discovered my arm was turning to
spagetti in a big hurry. I am learning to pace multiple jobs at the fire
though. Want to make the most of my propane at 2 bucks a gallon. I have
been experiencing some elbow pain lately that is probably due to the
hammering (or likely my poor form while doing so). I know enough about it
to know I 'm not doing entirely as recommended. Still getting my work space
figured out and I don't yet have a stump cut to the right size.
I was talking with a buddy at work who does some blacksmithing and we're
thinking up a design for a portable table that will seat the the rail either
rightside up or upside down depending on the job at hand and think I will
have something very usable soon. Probably not very good on a cement floor
but it should be fine standing on dirt. Might have to work on some kind of
vibration dampening if I want to use it indoors.
> ball joints and tie rod ends to "be good as new" with a hammer...
> does that qualify me as an "ace hammer mecahnic"? :)
I expect so! ;)