Anvil Identification
william thomas powers
> More to the point, amongst the nearly complete set of blacksmith
>tools I am now the proud owner of is the anvil. It is marked
>underneath the horn, on the foot, with a series of stamped
>numbers/letters. The first character looks like a capital T with a
>capital Z that has been rotated clockwise 45 degrees stamped over the
>top of the T; not above it, but in the same space as the T.
>Following that is "157" a bit of a space, and then "A86799" I have
>not found any other legible markings. All the characters are about
>1/2" tall. The anvil has a seam visible at the waist, and a fine line
>visible where the top plate is attached. It has both a hardie and
>pritchel hole also. It has a nice ring to it when struck.
> Is that enough information for anyone to identify the beast?
>Brad Heuver
Brad, as I wrote you earlier I believed this anvil to be a Hay-Budden.
Last night I reread the Hay-Budden section in Richard Postman's
"Anvils in America", (just published and by far the best work on the
subject available!), and I think I found the clincher!
"There is one other diference in those anvils with the "A" prefix.
The number on the front of the waist under the horn is always a "4".
Somtimes the "4" is upside down."
This "upside down `4'" sure sounds like your "T-Z" mark.
Please double check the serial though the "A" series are not listed
as having gone as far as the 80K's, (if it is a 30K number it was made
in the early 1920's)
BTW although two british firms Mousehole and Peter Wright used the
old hundredweight system of marking, most of the american firms did
not. They used a simple weight stamp. (n.b. Hay-Budden also used
a 1-3 digit stamp that is believed to refer to the lot of steel
used in its construction so if the 157 is not indicative of the
weight it is probably this lot number)
Another sign of the Hay-Budden is the "hourglass shape" of the
indentation on the bottom of the anvil, (actually a fairly thin rim
that projects down from the edge of the base and so follows the
base's contours.) [I told you it was a *good* book...)
Thomas Powers
Columbus, Ohio (once a major anvil manufacturing center!)
Gene Olson
(what the heck as long as it works)
I bought an anvil new in about 1971.
I would describe it as cast steel.
It is marked England on one side and 77 kg on the other.
It has a very thick heel and 1 1/4 in hardee hole.
It was painted blue. It is a lively anvil.
Any of you Brits know anything about it's Mfr?
--
Gene Olson,
Resident member of ArtMetal project
http://www.artmetal.com/gene-olson
Webmaster - Guild of Metalsmiths:
http://www.metalsmith.org
Ernie Leimkuhler
gene"@BLOCKmtn.SPAMorg> wrote:
> Well, as long as we are in ID mode.
> (what the heck as long as it works)
>
> I bought an anvil new in about 1971.
>
> I would describe it as cast steel.
> It is marked England on one side and 77 kg on the other.
> It has a very thick heel and 1 1/4 in hardee hole.
> It was painted blue. It is a lively anvil.
>
> Any of you Brits know anything about it's Mfr?
Sounds like a Brooks anvil.
They are still available new from Centaur Forge.
Record also sells some small anvils.
--
STAGESMITH PRODUCTIONS
Custom Metal Fabrication
ABANA AWS SCA IATSE Local 15/488
Renton, Washington, US
Paul Stevens
>
> Brad, as I wrote you earlier I believed this anvil to be a Hay-Budden.
> Last night I reread the Hay-Budden section in Richard Postman's
> "Anvils in America", (just published and by far the best work on the
> subject available!), and I think I found the clincher!
(snip)
I haven't found "Anvils in America" yet, but I've added it to my list
of books for future additions to the personal library. Sounds like
interesting reading.
> BTW although two british firms Mousehole and Peter Wright used the
> old hundredweight system of marking, most of the american firms did
> not. They used a simple weight stamp. (n.b. Hay-Budden also used
> a 1-3 digit stamp that is believed to refer to the lot of steel
> used in its construction so if the 157 is not indicative of the
> weight it is probably this lot number)
Would I be correct in interpreting the markings on the side of an
anvil:
M & H
ARMITAGE
MOUSE
HOLE
0 . 3 . 21
to mean that it is a 105 lb Mousehole anvil? I haven't been able to
find any other markings (the sides were a bit rusty). The hardie hole
is 3/4" and the pritchel hole is about 1/2". There is a seam where the
face was attached, and a barely visible seam at the waist. There are
three square holes, maybe an inch and a half deep; two on the waist
(I've seen pictures of these being used to hold or hoist the anvil
during manufacture and refacing), and one in the center of the base
(underneath - haven't figured out what it's for yet). What other
measurements would be helpful in confirming an identification (or
narrowing down the age)?
I haven't taken the time (yet) to learn much about the history of the
various anvil makers. I know that Mousehole Forge was in England, but
that is the extent of my Mousehole knowledge. Is a Mousehole anvil
a better find than a Peter Wright, or the other way around, or about
equal? Either way, my wife seems to believe I didn't think of anything
else on the day I got it. She's wrong, of course. I got the portable
forge on the same day. :)
Paul Stevens
Fred Holder
You have to buy Richard Postman's, Anvils in America, directly from him. As far
as I know, he hasn't placed it with any company for sale. Richard's Address is:
Richard Postman
10 Fischer Court
Berrian Springs, MI 49103
TEL: (616) 471-5426
Price for the book is $60.00 plus $5.00 shipping and handling.
Yes, your intrepretation of the anvil as a 105 pound MouseHole is correct. The
MouseHole anvils were the first commercially produced anvils in the world and i
would say that you made a good buy.
Fred Holder
<http://www.skagit.com/blacksmith>
In article <3621740B...@nashville.com>, Paul says...
Paul Stevens
>
> Paul,
>
> You have to buy Richard Postman's, Anvils in America, directly from him. As far
> as I know, he hasn't placed it with any company for sale. Richard's Address is:
>
> Richard Postman
> 10 Fischer Court
> Berrian Springs, MI 49103
> TEL: (616) 471-5426
Thanks for the address.
>
> Price for the book is $60.00 plus $5.00 shipping and handling.
Ouch, gonna have to figure out how to sneak that one past the wife.
Hmm... Christmas isn't too far off...
>
> Yes, your intrepretation of the anvil as a 105 pound MouseHole is correct. The
> MouseHole anvils were the first commercially produced anvils in the world and i
> would say that you made a good buy.
Now I've GOT to buy the book to see if I can determine the age of my
anvil. That might be enough of a reason to justify the purchase to
my wife, but I seriously doubt it. :)
Paul Stevens
william thomas powers
>of books for future additions to the personal library. Sounds like
>interesting reading.
Its *THE* book on the subject and I doubt that many libraries will
be getting a copy. Its 552 pages, hardcover with lots of pictures
and a whole lot better reading than the $60+ textbooks I keep having to
get at the University...
BTW there is a 66 page chapter on English Anvils with some information
on dating them.
>Is a Mousehole anvil
>a better find than a Peter Wright, or the other way around, or about
>equal?
Both are well known firms with good reputations---I prefer the Peter
Wright myself since I find the Mouseholes to look kinda squat--look
like they were designed to take a lot of abuse. But I would gladly
accept a nice Moushole over a rough Peter Wright any day!
>Either way, my wife seems to believe I didn't think of anything
>else on the day I got it. She's wrong, of course. I got the portable
>forge on the same day. :)
How long before you had red hot steel using them?
>Paul Stevens
Thomas
Columbus, OH
Paul Stevens
>
> >I haven't found "Anvils in America" yet, but I've added it to my list
> >of books for future additions to the personal library. Sounds like
> >interesting reading.
>
> Its *THE* book on the subject and I doubt that many libraries will
> be getting a copy. Its 552 pages, hardcover with lots of pictures
> and a whole lot better reading than the $60+ textbooks I keep having to
> get at the University...
My textbook problems were complicated by the departments changing the
required text every year or so. It made used ones hard to find at the
University bookstore, and lowered the odds of being able to sell any
that I didn't want to keep as reference books.
I'll get a copy of "Anvils in America". The only question is how long
it will be before I can set aside the money (without my wife noticing).
> BTW there is a 66 page chapter on English Anvils with some information
> on dating them.
That would be helpful. I know this anvil is fairly old (it was passed
down, through the family, to the person I got it from), but I don't
know just how old it is.
> >Is a Mousehole anvil
> >a better find than a Peter Wright, or the other way around, or about
> >equal?
>
> Both are well known firms with good reputations---I prefer the Peter
> Wright myself since I find the Mouseholes to look kinda squat--look
> like they were designed to take a lot of abuse. But I would gladly
> accept a nice Moushole over a rough Peter Wright any day!
I had heard Peter Wright anvils mentioned quite a bit (hoped to find
one), but I don't recall coming across the Mousehole name before I
found this anvil. I am waiting to hear if two other anvils (around
200 lb and also fairly old) might be available for sale. I haven't
seen them yet, maybe one of them will turn out to be a Peter Wright. :)
>
> >Either way, my wife seems to believe I didn't think of anything
> >else on the day I got it. She's wrong, of course. I got the portable
> >forge on the same day. :)
>
> How long before you had red hot steel using them?
>
I still had to find coal (an adventure and learning experience in
itself). I fired it up the day after I finally got some usable coal,
got a few hours practice, then started tinkering with modifications
to the forge.
It doesn't really have a firepot, just a large grate over the air pipe
(at least it has an ash dump). I had a lot of trouble controlling the
size of the fire (the grate is domed upwards and the outer ring of
holes is angled out, not up), and decided to experiment with clay. I
put a layer of clay on the hearth and covered the outer two rings of
holes. That reduced the diameter of the grate, and left it in a
shallow depression, instead of raised above the hearth. After the
clay dried, I tried it again. It fixed most of my problems, but the
depression seems to be too shallow (having trouble getting the fire
deep enough).
Before I could try any more clay modifications, we got a few days of
rain (I don't have a hood and flue yet, so I work outside), then I
suddenly had to redo some of the plumbing in my parents house (I'm
still trying to finish the plumbing in my house), then work picked
up...
I am going to find time to work on it later this week (I need a break
from the insanity) and hope to fire it up again this weekend. When
I get the bugs worked out, I'll probably look at removing the heavy
gauge sheetmetal hearth and putting on the brakedrum I got from
a semi at the junkyard. I'll lose an inch or so in diameter, but
double the depth of the hearth. Then I can redo my clay modifications
in steel, make some stronger legs...
It doesn't seem to end. I like that! I've got a pile of leftover
bricks (including some firebrick), so I probably need to get a book
on building a small cupola (next year - the forge and anvil will
definitely use up most of my free time until we get some clear
weather in the spring). :)
Paul Stevens
william thomas powers
>required text every year or so. It made used ones hard to find at the
>University bookstore, and lowered the odds of being able to sell any
>that I didn't want to keep as reference books.
Well the worst I had was when we got the rough draft of a proff's *new*
textbook and had to pay a pretty penny for a photocopy of a real mess.
No index, each chapter started with page 1, typos...
>I'll probably look at removing the heavy
>gauge sheetmetal hearth and putting on the brakedrum I got from
>a semi at the junkyard. I'll lose an inch or so in diameter, but
>double the depth of the hearth. Then I can redo my clay modifications
>in steel, make some stronger legs...
Why don't you just make the semi brake drum into another less "portable"
forge? BTW semi brakedrums can be too deep for their width. I had a
student who tried that route and found that sticking your piece nearly
vertical was not the way to get an even heat. He ended up filling the
bottom of the drum with gravel, putting a fireclay layer on top
of that and then having a massively heavy forge---he abandoned it when he
moved. (it would have worked better if he could have cut slots in the
rim to allow work to go in horizontally.)
I just did a brake drum forge; but used a fairly small brake drum. To
get good depth for forge welding I made a heavy gauge sheetmetal rim that
fits inside the brake drum rim. I left about a 2" gap where the ends of
the sheet metal came together and cut a "mousehole" opposite the gap
to allow long pieces to poke through. Its blown by a small, old vacuum
cleaner---sort of like a dustbuster but from the '50's got it
at the fleamarket for $3 without the bag--just a round aluminium pipe,
I use a dimmer switch to control the speed---gotta love those universal
motors!--al in all I figure I have less than $10 in the forge and it
used no special tools to build, (ie: no welder was needed). Then I went
and got my propane forge finished off...So many forges, so little time!
Paul Stevens
>
> >My textbook problems were complicated by the departments changing the
> >required text every year or so. It made used ones hard to find at the
> >University bookstore, and lowered the odds of being able to sell any
> >that I didn't want to keep as reference books.
>
> Well the worst I had was when we got the rough draft of a proff's *new*
> textbook and had to pay a pretty penny for a photocopy of a real mess.
> No index, each chapter started with page 1, typos...
I had an Aerodynamics course that used a textbook that was a little
better than that. Fortunately, the department made sure the price was
kept low (a little more than the cost of having Kinko's print them).
From a technical standpoint, it was a good text (the prof who wrote
it was a retired aeronautical engineer), but reading it was a new
form of torture.
>
> >I'll probably look at removing the heavy
> >gauge sheetmetal hearth and putting on the brakedrum I got from
> >a semi at the junkyard. I'll lose an inch or so in diameter, but
> >double the depth of the hearth. Then I can redo my clay modifications
> >in steel, make some stronger legs...
>
> Why don't you just make the semi brake drum into another less "portable"
> forge?
It will probably progress to that. I'm just tinkering in stages at
this point. If I can manage to copy the blower mounting bracket (or
even come up with an improvement), I'll definitely make a separate
forge. Copying the mount (it takes 15-20 seconds to remove the
blower) would allow using one blower (a Champion 400) for both forges.
> BTW semi brakedrums can be too deep for their width. I had a
> student who tried that route and found that sticking your piece nearly
> vertical was not the way to get an even heat. He ended up filling the
> bottom of the drum with gravel, putting a fireclay layer on top
> of that and then having a massively heavy forge---he abandoned it when he
> moved. (it would have worked better if he could have cut slots in the
> rim to allow work to go in horizontally.)
I was planning on placing a steel plate (3/8" or so) in the brakedrum
and raising it up with small spacers. The raised plate would allow
me to make a firepot of some sort between the plate and the bottom of
the drum. I don't know how much of the depth that will use (I'll have
a better idea after tinkering some more with the forge I have now), but
I was planning to cut gaps in the sides of the brakedrum. I'll cut the
slots with a cutoff wheel on a die grinder, so I can just tack some
sheetmetal tabs on the removed sections and use them to close the slots
(if I ever need to close them).
> I just did a brake drum forge; but used a fairly small brake drum. To
> get good depth for forge welding I made a heavy gauge sheetmetal rim that
> fits inside the brake drum rim. I left about a 2" gap where the ends of
> the sheet metal came together and cut a "mousehole" opposite the gap
> to allow long pieces to poke through. Its blown by a small, old vacuum
> cleaner---sort of like a dustbuster but from the '50's got it
> at the fleamarket for $3 without the bag--just a round aluminium pipe,
> I use a dimmer switch to control the speed---gotta love those universal
> motors!--al in all I figure I have less than $10 in the forge and it
> used no special tools to build, (ie: no welder was needed). Then I went
> and got my propane forge finished off...So many forges, so little time!
>
Sounds like a nice little forge. I'm trying to work with what I have
or can easily find to make a forge for small to medium size work. If
I can copy my blower mount, it would make sense to have two forges
(one for small work, the other for larger projects). There are just
too many things I don't like about my forge (as it was when I got it)
for me to not try to improve it. I just couldn't pass it up at the
price I got it for (free!), and it had that blower in good shape on
it. :)
Paul Stevens
underw...@gmail.com
Mike Spencer
Oh dear. What a shame.
> I am uncertain of what make/brand they were...
No help in locating you particular anvils but to identify the make you
might want to have "Anvils in America" by Richard A. Postman,
available from Centaur Forge, Amazon and elsewhere.
> but the ancestor who owned then would have stamped Underwood onto
> them, I have one left so I do know what it would look like if I came
> across one of the other two that we are searching for. They would
> have been sold in TN in the last decade or so. Any help with where I
> could look to find them would be great!
and post again there. There are a number of smiths in your general
part of the country. See:
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/theforge
The list is sponsored by (but not operated by) ABANA.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada