Drilling a pritchel hole in a old anvil
Curt Welch
one?
I'm looking for options for doing that. I've got an old 1820's Mouse Hole
Forge anvil without a pritchel hole which I'm currently working on refacing
using hardfacing MIG wire. I've stopped before putting on the final layers
of the hardest (HRC 55? range) layers because I've decided I really don't
want to live without a pritchel hole if I don't have to and it will be
easier to hardface around a whole than to try and drill though the
hardfacing later.
The current top layer of the anvil is BB-G hardfacing wire which is around
HRC 45 in range. My standard drill bits aren't cutting it. But I've not
even got down to the original steel plate in the anvil which I think might
be harder.
Annealing the steel and then trying to heat treat it later doesn't really
seem like much of an option here - and I have no clue what that would do to
the hard facing layers I've already put down on the anvil. So if I'm going
to do this, I think drilling or grinding though it is the only workable
option.
I've talked to a couple of machine shops. The first didn't even want to try
it, and the second would be happy to try, but could not make any grantees
and would charge $85 an hour plus the cost of any tooling he broke while
trying.
I just ordered a 1/2" carbide bit from enco to experiment with ($45 with
shipping). That's really about the limit of how much money I want to waste
on this. Really just wondering if anyone here had every tried such a thing
and had any advice about it.
--
Curt Welch http://AyrHillForge.Com/
cu...@kcwc.com http://NewsReader.Com/
Ignoramus5928
it will require a rigid machine. You are on the right track buying the
carbide drill, though much cheaper alternatives are available on ebay,
esp. carbide tipped drills. I would say on ebay a good 1/2" drill can
be had for about $15, including shipping. I have a few of such
drills. They are invaluable when drilling tough stuff like bearing
balls, which I had to do recently.
Just keep them cool enough.
i
RAM�
news:XuWdnQ5DdJswt1zX...@giganews.com...
on hardened/tempered steel (usually store-bought knife blades) with good
results.
While not the most accurately sized, they'll do for pilot holes and other
non-dimensionally-critical purposes.
spaco
just finished facing my first railroad track anvil. And then, I drilled
the pritchel hole. No trouble with that, though. But I do have trouble
drilling the track where I have torch cut it. Next time I will spot
anneal those araas. Good thing I have my trusty Drill Doctor!
I wonder if it could be done with a cnc plasma or cnc water jet. I know
they will both cut the material, but I don't know how deep they can go.
And you may have to go an inch or so.
I know guys who would cut that hole with an oxyacetylene cutting
torch and do a pretty good job, but you'd still want to clean the hole
up with a carbide burr. ---It would be fast and cheap, tho.
Also, what about finding a shop that does EDM? They could eat out
that hole for you pretty acurately. I don't know cost.
Of course, if you do anything to that Mouse Hole anvil, several
people will probably hate you for the rest of your life. <G>
Pete Stanaitis
David Harmon
(Curt Welch) wrote,
>The current top layer of the anvil is BB-G hardfacing wire which is around
>HRC 45 in range. My standard drill bits aren't cutting it. But I've not
>even got down to the original steel plate in the anvil which I think might
>be harder.
EDM. Find somebody with a sinker EDM or even just a tap-buster.
Martin H. Eastburn
Cole drill with a carbide drill -
You would likely have to drill a hole through for the plasma or water
jet to start in. Blasting out that thickness without issues is rare.
I do 1/2" 400 BHN often. It uses 40 amps.
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
Martin
Ignoramus5928
There are carbide tipped drills for metal, I was referring to those
kinds, not masonry drills.
Example is here.
ebay has plenty of those if you look deep
i
Curt Welch
> "Ignoramus5928" <ignora...@NOSPAM.5928.invalid> wrote in message
> news:XuWdnQ5DdJswt1zX...@giganews.com...
> > Curt, a carbide drill wil not care much about metal hardness. However,
> > it will require a rigid machine.
My drill press is not what you would call rigid. :) I'll have to see how
it does (will probably break the bit!)
> > You are on the right track buying the
> > carbide drill, though much cheaper alternatives are available on ebay,
> > esp. carbide tipped drills. I would say on ebay a good 1/2" drill can
> > be had for about $15, including shipping.
That's why I should post questions before placing my orders. :)
> > I have a few of such
> > drills. They are invaluable when drilling tough stuff like bearing
> > balls, which I had to do recently.
> >
> > Just keep them cool enough.
> >
> > i
> >
> I'll second that, Iggy - I've often used masonry-type caarbide-tipped
> bits on hardened/tempered steel (usually store-bought knife blades) with
> good results.
I probably already have some carbide tipped masonry bits large enough. I
just assumed their design wouldn't work on steel - didn't even think to try
them.
> While not the most accurately sized, they'll do for pilot holes and other
> non-dimensionally-critical purposes.
My pritchel hole is certainly not critical. If it looks more round than
square, that's good enough for me and better than no hole. I'll have to
experiment with some of my masonry bits first just to see what happens.
--
Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
cu...@kcwc.com http://NewsReader.Com/
Curt Welch
> Funny you should ask. I just this minute came in from the shop where I
> just finished facing my first railroad track anvil. And then, I drilled
> the pritchel hole. No trouble with that, though. But I do have trouble
> drilling the track where I have torch cut it. Next time I will spot
> anneal those araas. Good thing I have my trusty Drill Doctor!
>
> I wonder if it could be done with a cnc plasma or cnc water jet. I know
> they will both cut the material, but I don't know how deep they can go.
> And you may have to go an inch or so.
The heel on this anvil is very short and gets thick fast. The deep end of
the hole will be about 2". I could push it closer to the end and keep it
to about 1 1/2" deep.
> I know guys who would cut that hole with an oxyacetylene cutting
> torch and do a pretty good job, but you'd still want to clean the hole
> up with a carbide burr. ---It would be fast and cheap, tho.
I've got long carbide burrs to do just that. But no skilled O/A guys I
could trust.
> Also, what about finding a shop that does EDM? They could eat out
> that hole for you pretty acurately. I don't know cost.
Yeah, might be high. I have no clue what they would charge. It just seems
like a high end machine that would come with high end rates.
> Of course, if you do anything to that Mouse Hole anvil, several
> people will probably hate you for the rest of your life. <G>
Too late. :) Yeah, when I first started to work on it, it was sort of a
coin toss as to whether to put it on the shelf as a museum piece or to work
on it and make it usable again. I got it for $100 and knew nothing about
it's history. It looked like someone had given up on it as an anvil and
started to use it for chipping ice with a pick axe. Or maybe even breaking
rocks? The face was bowed down about 1/2" in the middle and there wasn't a
single flat spot or even semi-sharp edge on it. The whole anvil had been
painted black to hide just how bad the face was. It wasn't usable for
hitting hot metal unless the goal was to add a unique texture to your
metal.
The markings are hard to read, but it's marked M&H ARMITAGE MOUSE HOLE
which according to this post:
http://www.abana.org/resources/discus/messages/4/442.html?1141695362
Puts it at 1820 to 1835. Other resources indicate that the pritchel hole
showed up around 1830 so mine's somewhere in the 1820 to 1830 age if all
that is correct.
When I bought it, I though it was just a crappy old cheap anvil that needed
a lot of work. But when I figured out what it was, and how old it was, I
really didn't know whether to save it, or try to use it. I opted for
fixing it. I've already put about 7 layers of beads, first to get it flat
again, and then the last two for the medium hardfacing (HRC 45 range). The
plan is to put 2 more layers of HRC 55 hardfacing to finish it off.
When I started, the plan was not to add the pritchel hole because the
missing hole was part of its heritage. But I've changed my mind at this
point and decided I really want the pritchel hole if I can make it happen
affordably. So I'm waiting on the last two layers of hardfacing until I
figure out what I'm doing with the pritchel hole.
--
Chilla
Or simply pay someone else to do it :-)
Regards Charles
Ignoramus3921
to carbide tipped drill bits for metal. They are made from steel, with
carbide tips on the ends. They are probably less fragile.
Igor
On 2009-09-29, Curt Welch <cu...@kcwc.com> wrote:
Curt Welch
> Curt, I was not referring to carbide tipped masonry bits, but instead,
> to carbide tipped drill bits for metal. They are made from steel, with
> carbide tips on the ends. They are probably less fragile.
Yeah, I know you were. I was not confused about that. I've looked though
the selection on eBay as well and almost ordered some but decided I need to
wait for the bit I already ordered to show up and do more experimenting
first.
Thanks for the ideas.
spaco
The face was bowed down about 1/2" in the middle and there wasn't a
> single flat spot or even semi-sharp edge on it.
might be a clue to how to do it. I have seen a number of old anvils
whose faces were soft enough to be deformed by hammering and that sounds
like one of them. Maybe means that it would be easier to drill after
the first 1/16" or so.
Pete Stanaitis
Denis G.
If you talk with someone at a welding supply place, you might be able
to get either supplies for an oxygen lance or rods for thermite
cutting. Those should go through just about anything and also be
relatively controlled. You could also find someone familiar with
those techniques.
If you're doing all of this restoration work to your anvil, I'm sure
that filling in a pritchel hole shouldn't be a big problem if you
decide to reverse the work you've done.
Curt Welch
Good point Pete. It might not be as bad as I've feared. I didn't try
drilling the face before I covered it up. It seemed fairly hard testing it
with a file however. The only thing I've tried to drill so far is the top
layer of HRC 45 range hardfacing I added to it. But with the amount of
dings in the face, maybe it really wasn't all that hard!
Since we are talking about it, I just uploaded some pictures of the anvil
and the work I'm doing on it and the stand I made as well as a few other
projects.
http://picasaweb.google.com/Curt.Welch/BlacksmithProjects#
>
> Pete Stanaitis
Curt Welch
> On Sep 28, 2:29=A0pm, c...@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) wrote:
> > Anyone ever try to drill a pritchel hole in an old anvil which doesn't
> ve
> > one?
> >
> > I'm looking for options for doing that. =A0I've got an old 1820's Mouse
> > H=
> ole
> > Forge anvil without a pritchel hole which I'm currently working on
> ng
> > using hardfacing MIG wire. =A0I've stopped before putting on the final
> > la=
> yers
> > of the hardest (HRC 55? range) layers because I've decided I really
> > don't want to live without a pritchel hole if I don't have to and it
> > will be easier to hardface around a whole than to try and drill though
> > the hardfacing later.
> >
> > The current top layer of the anvil is BB-G hardfacing wire which is
> d
> > HRC 45 in range. =A0My standard drill bits aren't cutting it. =A0But
> > I've=
> not
> > even got down to the original steel plate in the anvil which I think
> t
> > be harder.
> >
> > Annealing the steel and then trying to heat treat it later doesn't
> > really seem like much of an option here - and I have no clue what that
> to
> > the hard facing layers I've already put down on the anvil. =A0So if I'm
> > g=
> oing
> > to do this, I think drilling or grinding though it is the only workable
> > option.
> >
> > I've talked to a couple of machine shops. The first didn't even want to
> ry
> > it, and the second would be happy to try, but could not make any
> > grantees and would charge $85 an hour plus the cost of any tooling he
> > broke while trying.
> >
> > I just ordered a 1/2" carbide bit from enco to experiment with ($45
> > want to w=
> aste
> > on this. =A0Really just wondering if anyone here had every tried such a
> > t=
> hing
> > and had any advice about it.
> >
> > --
> > =
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0http://AyrHillForge.Com/
> > c...@kcwc.com =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0
> > =A0=
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0http://NewsReader.Com/
>
> If you talk with someone at a welding supply place, you might be able
> to get either supplies for an oxygen lance or rods for thermite
> cutting. Those should go through just about anything and also be
> relatively controlled. You could also find someone familiar with
> those techniques.
More good ideas to keep in mind.
> If you're doing all of this restoration work to your anvil, I'm sure
> that filling in a pritchel hole shouldn't be a big problem if you
> decide to reverse the work you've done.
Well, if I get carried away and melt the thing down to a bubbling blob of
goo that dripped though the hole in my workbench in a thermite accident, it
might be more than just "filling the mistake in". :) But yet, I'm not too
worried about drilling partial holes in the face because it would be easy
compared to everything else to just fill that back in again if I decide to
give up on the pritchel hole.
--
Curt Welch http://AyrHillForge.Com/
RAM�
<chuckle>
Iggy, in this area we've learned to "make do" a very, very long time ago.
The masonry drills are:
1. cheap
2. available at 24-hour Wal*Marts
3. Cheap
4. available at lumber yards
5. CHEAP
Did I mention "cheap"? <grin>
Ignoramus3921
>> There are carbide tipped drills for metal, I was referring to those
>> kinds, not masonry drills.
>>
>> Example is here.
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/1-New-Butterfield-Carbide-Tipped-31-32-Drill-Bit-3-MT_W0QQitemZ120473563547QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0cc8b19b&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
>>
>> ebay has plenty of those if you look deep
>
>
> Iggy, in this area we've learned to "make do" a very, very long time ago.
>
> The masonry drills are:
> 1. cheap
> 2. available at 24-hour Wal*Marts
> 3. Cheap
> 4. available at lumber yards
> 5. CHEAP
>
> Did I mention "cheap"? <grin>
I am not sure if you mentioned cheap, but the masonry drills that I
saw, were sharpened in a way that would make it difficult to drill
steel. At the very least, you would need to resharpen them.
i
Chilla
Chilla wrote:
> Thermite :-)
>
> Or simply pay someone else to do it :-)
>
>
> Regards Charles
Expanding on this, bu the time you've figured out how to do it and
risked doing nasty things to the anvil, a machinist could have done it
for you.
For me time is money, and I've had to learn that sometimes it's cheaper
to let someone else do the job for me.
Regards Charles
Mark Finn
i have been a practicing smith for over 50 years. as well as a tool
collector. an old anvil like your mouse hole can tell a lot of stories
if you know how to read it. this world is full of anvils, i hope you
don't butcher that old anvil of yours and make it it's last story.
have fun, mark
spaco
better welder than I am. I draw the line at grinding the faces.
Pete Stanaitis
---------------------------------------
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/Curt.Welch/BlacksmithProjects#
>
>
Glenn Lyford
> have one?
Well, there is a another harsh, crude way to get a hole started
through the tough stuff. Got a stick welder? Grab some 1/8" 6011,
dip them in water, and crank the amps way up. Probably give you a
hardenned edge once it cools, but might be enough for you to burn
through your hardfaceing bigger than it needs to be, then drill the
softer material underneath the rest of the way through at size. Fill
the top edge back to just undersize as you're putting your final
hardfacing on the rest of the top, and tidy up with a die grinder.
They also make special burning rods, but I've not had great results
with them. If you try this, you're probably better to have the anvil
on its side to give the molten bits somewhere to go...
--Glenn Lyford
Curt Welch
Yeah, I've got a Lincoln tombstone welder I could do that with. Good idea.
If I can't cut through the hardstuff with the bits I'm going to try, I'll
keep that in mind as an option. It could be a good way to locally anneal
the hard face plate when I get down to it if it stops the drilling. Hum,
maybe I could go buy a tig tungsten rod and use it in the Lincon with some
shelding gas from my mig machine. I'll do some tests on other material
first before I work on the anvil if I decide to try that route. But I'd
much rather drill a clean hole through it than play with that and then have
to do all the extra clean up work afterwards. I'm waiting for the bit I
ordered to show up before I do anything else.
I tried one of those cutting rods once back in school just to see how it
worked. Made a real mess, that's for sure, but it did cut up the piece of
3/8 plate I was experimenting with. O/A at least has the decency to burn
away the extra metal. With those burning rods, it just melts and drips all
over the place.
John
> "Ignoramus5928" <ignoramus5...@NOSPAM.5928.invalid> wrote in message
I've used these types of drills in the past with great success. I've
found you should not cool them. Use lots of speed and pressure. The
theory is that the friction heats up the steel, softens it and the
drill then penetrates. The tips are brazed on with a high temperature
alloy, not just normal braze. The swarf comes off up to red hot. I've
seen them drill bearing races and files this way.
John
RAM�
The amount of pressure varies with the amount of material being removed:
from not too much for simply enlarging an existing hole to quite a bit to
drill a large one.
I've had my best luck by drilling a small-diameter pilot hole and then
using successively larger bits 'till I get what I need. <g>
'Course, I'm one of those idjits who'll use diamond burrs on tempered
steel...with results that, at least, please me. <G>
Martin H. Eastburn
I was making a form tool.
I used a solid carbide drill in my quality (1930) Delta Drill press
that will hold a number 80 drill in the 1/2" chuck!
I had the steel on a solid surface and clamped into place.
It drilled nicely.
The drill and the work got red - bright red hot.
Went right though. I let both cool in place by themselves.
Both cooled by metal mass of the chuck or the vice.
The drill was almost like new - I think a layer of vaporized metal
deposited on parts of the drill. It felt sharp as before.
I made the tool and cut some brass. It worked for me.
Martin
Curt Welch
> Anyone ever try to drill a pritchel hole in an old anvil which doesn't
> have one?
It's done!
Pictures here...
http://picasaweb.google.com/Curt.Welch/2009_10_02DrillingPritchelHoleInMouseHoleAnvil#
Turned out to be easier than I suspected.
I week or two ago, I had tried some standard HSS drills and they were
really not working. Not sure if they were dull, or if the hardfacing I had
on the top layer was too hard. Probably a bit of both.
I bought a 5/16" cobalt drill from Home Depot, but hadn't tried it in the
drill press because it was tricky to set up the anvil on the drill press.
I tried with just a hand drill to see how it would work. It was making
some progress, but didn't seem like it was really going to work.
That's when I ordered the 1/2" carbide drill and posted the questions
where.
It showed up yesterday so today I got back to work on the project. Since
my first attempt, I happened to have gotten an old cabinet and located it
next to the drill press. That, with a 2x6, turned out to make a nice way
to place the anvil on the press without having the drill press try to flip
over on me. See pictures.
However, the new fancy carbide bit was too long for that configuration. So
I was going to have do move the cabinet and get something else so I could
lower the table and abvil a few more inches to use the long carbide bit.
But before doing that, I wanted to try the other options.
First, I tried the cobalt bit again - this time in the drill press instead
of by hand. Worked just fine as long as I used lots of cutting fluid. It
was so easy it almost felt like I was drilling lead. But it was only 5/16
and I wanted at least 1/2" so I had to make it wider.
Next I pulled out a standard 3/8" HSS bit. This was only cutting an extra
1/16" on the hole. But it too worked fine.
I don't know if this was working because the hard plate on the anvil wasn't
really very hard, or if the cobalt drill really was good enough to get
though it without issue. When cutting with the cobalt drill and the
followup with the HSS drill, I really didn't notice any difference at the
different layers of the hole.
Next, since you guys had suggested it, I dug out a 1/2" masonry bit. It
was a bit chewed up from drilling concrete. It was short enough that I
could try it in the drill press configuration I had so I went ahead and
tried it.
At first, it was making lots of noise, straining the drill press bearings
and belt drive, and mostly just chewing up the hole edge. But I took it
out and re-ground the outer edges of the tips a bit, and then it started
cutting. It was still making a lot of noise, and this was really too large
a job for my drill press, but it worked. Took me about 15 minutes to get
all the way though.
I didn't risk trying the "let it get red hot" technique mentioned here. I
kept it flooded with lots of cutting fluid. I couldn't apply the amount of
pressure it really needed because the bit would just jam and slip in the
chuck. So it was cutting off fine powder chips from the anvil and going
very slow.
With this bit, I did notice a big difference after it got though the anvil
face plate and into the soft wrought iron body. But it was still too big a
hole for my drill press. It just didn't have the power to do it correctly
so it was still slow going.
None the less, it made it all the way though and produced a very clean
result - far cleaner than what I needed for a pritchel hole. I would have
been happy with something much rougher. The hole turned out to be about
.52" which was just perfect because I can easily slide a 1/2" rod into the
hole to make a hold down tool out of.
Thanks for all the ideas from everyone. I'm glad I didn't have to use most
of them. I never would have even thought to try that masonry bit had you
guys not suggested it! It's doubt its design would cut a new hole in steel
very well, but for widening a hole already cut, it sure worked for me.