Ron Reil burner using Tweco tips?
Grant Erwin
drilling a jet hole in the burner tube, rather he recommends installing
Tweco tips. (See http://www.reil1.net/design.shtml#Preface)
I would like to correspond with anyone who has actually modified a Ron Reil
burner to use a Tweco tip.
I am also interested in regenerative forge designs (i.e designs which
use ingenious methods to preheat the air before it is drawn in to mix
with the propane). I have looked at the ABANA design, which isn't
available directly on the Web, only by ordering it from ABANA (if
you're interested, see http://www.atlasbooks.com/abana/plans.htm).
I would like to correspond with anyone or be passed links to other
regenerative designs.
Thanks!
Grant Erwin
Kirkland, Washington
Steve Smith
Grant Erwin wrote:
> I'm looking at propane forge designs. I see that Ron now recommends not just
> drilling a jet hole in the burner tube, rather he recommends installing
> Tweco tips. (See http://www.reil1.net/design.shtml#Preface)
>
> I would like to correspond with anyone who has actually modified a Ron Reil
> burner to use a Tweco tip.
I would be curious to hear how this works, especially any comparisons between a
Tweco tip and a drilled orifice.
> I am also interested in regenerative forge designs (i.e designs which
> use ingenious methods to preheat the air before it is drawn in to mix
> with the propane). I have looked at the ABANA design, which isn't
> available directly on the Web, only by ordering it from ABANA (if
> you're interested, see http://www.atlasbooks.com/abana/plans.htm).
> I would like to correspond with anyone or be passed links to other
> regenerative designs.
I tried to make my second gas forge recuperative. I preheated the air and added
propane afterward. After the forge was completely warmed up, I would get back
flashing from where the propane was added back to where the air pipes went
through the chimney. I didn't like this effect. The forge was a lot like a
Sandia forge, with the rectangular chimney up the back.
Steve
NoSpam
used it in my crucible furnace with great results. I got Rupert's design
off of R.Reils site.
I don't use a blower of any type, I can melt a full crucible in about
12-15 minutes. You can see my "Trash can" furnace at
http://www.condor.d2g.com
The burner displayed is before the modification. I also rebuilt another
furnace using Soft kiln bricks (used), I picked up at a local ceramic
shop.
Ted Edwards
> I'm looking at propane forge designs. I see that Ron now recommends not just
> drilling a jet hole in the burner tube, rather he recommends installing
> Tweco tips. (See http://www.reil1.net/design.shtml#Preface)
I believe Ron's motivation there is to make it easier for the
blacksmithing fraternity who may have no machining capabilities beyond a
drill. In your case, why not make the tip from scratch?
Ted
J R North
the gas stream would be beneficial. On my Ron Reil type
freon tank forge
http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_1999_retired_files/ftmf.txt
My adaptation of the original burner design works quite well
with a drilled hole. I installed a threaded plug in the feed
tube, which I drilled in increments until the flame was
satisfactory. Since the hole is lengthy in the plug, this
may have produced the same effect as the Tweco tip.
JR
Dweller in the cellar
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Dave
wrote:
>
>I tried to make my second gas forge recuperative. I preheated the air and added
>propane afterward. After the forge was completely warmed up, I would get back
>flashing from where the propane was added back to where the air pipes went
>through the chimney. I didn't like this effect. The forge was a lot like a
>Sandia forge, with the rectangular chimney up the back.
>
>Steve
The plans for the Sandia Recuperative forge/furnace as provided by
Sandia and Rob Gunter and sold through ABANA specifically address this
problem. The situation occurs due to recuperating too much heat in
the intake tubes. I can't find my copy of the plans, but I remember
that it makes note of the ignition temperature of the propane/air
mixture and that the tube size must, by necessity, be such that the
intake air temperature remains significantly belowt that ignition
temperature. The rusult of overheating the intake air is just as you
describe, a back fire. The fix to this problem is to either reduce
the surface area of the intake tubes as exposed to the heat coming out
of the chimney, or enlarge the chimney so that less of the hot exhause
gasses pass over the intake manifold. (i.e. use a smaller tube, or an
eliptical tube in an upright profile.
Dave Brown
Steve Smith
just pieces of 1/2" pipe, with an exposed length (inside the chimney) of about 1".
Pretty small, so I must have had too much heat going up the flue.
Thanks,
Steve
Dave
enlarging the chimney might do the trick. I'll go look for my copy of
the plans and see just what it says.
Are you preheating the air, or are you heating the air/fuel mix?
Dave
On Mon, 14 Jan 2002 20:56:43 -0700, Steve Smith <s...@alum.mit.edu>
Grant Erwin
didn't see anything at all in there about max temperature in the intake
pipes.
Grant Erwin
Kirkland, Washington
Steve Smith
Steve
Dave
wrote:
>I read the Sandia plans carefully. Maybe mine was missing something, but I
>didn't see anything at all in there about max temperature in the intake
>pipes.
>
>Grant Erwin
>Kirkland, Washington
You're right, Grant. I found my copy of the Sandia plans and it does
not mention the ignition problem. All it does mention is that their
third and final design had an air intake temperature of about 800F.
This is probably the fact that tied my brain to the Sandia
forge/furnace plans in error.
Propane does, however, have an in-air ignition temperature of between
920-1120° F. If the intake air preheat were to get into that range or
higher, then ignition would certainly start to take place in the
mixing tubes as opposed to in the combustion chamber.
So, although I may have had my source of information incorrect, the
concern for avoiding excessive preheat is valid and it may well be the
cause of the problem that was originally described.
Dave
Dave
wrote:
>I'm looking at propane forge designs. I see that Ron now recommends not just
>drilling a jet hole in the burner tube, rather he recommends installing
>Tweco tips. (See http://www.reil1.net/design.shtml#Preface)
>
>I would like to correspond with anyone who has actually modified a Ron Reil
>burner to use a Tweco tip.
Which Tweco tip does he recommend using? There are about 10 different
tips in the 14T group (T=tapered). I have no doubt, though, that the
tip may offer an improvement, but how much I don't know. Personally
I've used jets specifically designed for propane and available from a
local gas appliance repair shop. They come in a variety of sizes,
dependent on the diameter of your mixing tube. The advantage to a
manufactured tip, in my opinion anyway, is that there are no burrs
around the edges of the orifice to interfer with the gas flow pattern.
Also, if you look closely at a propane tip you will find that the hole
is slighly recessed and that there is a slight flare at the end.
The result is a more streamlined and efficient gas stream/jet entering
the venturi. I would suspect that this has some bearing on operating
efficiency, otherwise the commercial manufactures of gas forges and
other appliances would simply dril holes instead of producing the more
expensive brass and/or copper jets.
The 14T tips from Tweco are MIG welder tips (this is what I have on my
PowCon MIG welder) and don't have the recess. But they do present a
smooth burr free orifice for the gas to pass through. I'm guessing
that Ron is talking about a Tweco 14T-40 tip that has a 0.040"
diameter hole. This is approximately a #60 drill size.
I don't see, though, any great advantage to the Tweco tip as long as
one is sure to clean and deburr the hold drilled for the jet. Anyway,
they're cheap enough that the cost of a little experimentation
wouldn't be prohibitive.
Dave
Eastburn
wasn't
flanged enough at the tip. So it back fires when cold and sometimes is
harder to turn on than others.
The burner is spec'd to have a slight larger diameter tip than the pipe.
I think this lowers the pressure in that zonal area and in that mode,
draw
the mixture through.
The front 2/3 of my pipe & nossle are in the bottom of the furnace.
Once lit,
the infrared heating gets the pipe very hot. Plenty of temperature
gradient.
Martin
--
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home on our computer old...@pacbell.net
James Templeton
I just wanted to mention that the flame from a burner travels at a
specific rate of speed know as "Flame speed". For natural gas in our area
Ontario Ca. the flame speed is around 25 feet per second.This means that the
flame will travel 25' per second until it reaches a point (end of our
burners in this case) where the speed of the gas coming out of the orffice
mixed with air breeches the burner and matches the speed of the flame.
Propane flame speed is different that natural gas as is acetylene and so on.
If the gas/air mix speed is too high(high gas pressure,excess air) you will
have the flame lifting off the burner tip or it will extinguish itself. If
the air/gas mixture comes out of the burner too slow(low gas pressure ,dirty
orffice,restricted burner opening) you will get a flashback or burning in
the burner throat. Now having said all of this put the same well adjusted
burner in a box,(forge) now you have completely changed the operating
conditions for the burner.Recuperative, same thing, only now you have
reduced the density of the air by heating it, requiring even more air for
complete combustion.Producing CO is a no no.
Hope this helps, Clear as mud.:-)
These are only my observations, no warranties given nor implied. Building
my own forge from an bungalow boiler and an old gas conversion burner.It has
a cast iron burner head.Gas pressure 7" W.C. at the gas control. 140000 BTU
input.
James Templeton, Novice newbie blacksmith, Not so newbie gas burner
technician.
Bill
> Building
>my own forge from an bungalow boiler and an old gas conversion burner.It has
>a cast iron burner head.Gas pressure 7" W.C. at the gas control. 140000 BTU
>input.
wondering if the boiler itself would be good for use as a forge. Will the cast
iron (at least I think that's what it is) hold up to that much heat?
I'd love to see this! Got a web site or can you put some in the drop box?
--
Bill H.
James Templeton
The boiler I am reworking into a forge is of welded steel construction with
a removable combustion chamber base.I scrapped the heat exchanger portion
and am using the base. It is lined with firebrick with a mounting point for
the conversion burner.Have to fabricate a top from3/8" plate for it yet but
I can use some new insulation from a Raypak boiler rebuild to line the top.I
never throw anything out.
As for cast iron isn't the firebox on a coal forges cast from iron? Not
sure about the oil boiler, the configuration of the boiler may make it not
practical to use.
I don't have any pictures or a website to post them but once it is
completed I will try it out and post pictures somehow. Sometimes I work thru
a project and after completion say,"Gee I wish I had some pictures while it
was going together." Happened more than once.
James
"Bill" <Bil...@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:v0bs4u41njl4tu3tn...@4ax.com...
Bill
>As for cast iron isn't the firebox on a coal forges cast from iron? Not
>sure about the oil boiler, the configuration of the boiler may make it not
>practical to use.
I have heard of cast iron wood stoves cracking from getting too hot too fast,
so I thought since a burner gets much hotter much faster... (this is NOT my
area of expertise).
The one I saw that got me thinking about it was in a junkpile behind a local
service company. It looked to be similar in construction (but much older) to
the one in my house, a Vega G series. Separate units (2" or 3" each) bolted
together until you get the right depth. Has studs on the front where you bolt
on the burner, easy enough to put a door on those. It might be steel, it just
looked like it was a casting of some sort. Water jacket surrounds the
combustion chamber.
I gave up the idea because I didn't think it could take the heat, but your
post has me wondering again. If it would work, all you need to do is line it
and put on a door, the only difficult part might be drilling for the burner.
But starting with something like that, it could all be done in one afternoon.
--
Bill H.
Eastburn
by burning something inside and have it insulated from the outside -
the walls will become overheated and likely fracture.
If the same stove had hot water pipes wrapped around it and a supply of
water
to registers... the intense heat is tapped off to the sink - energy
isn't
added and added to a critical value - it simply adds and subtracts.
The very fast rise can stress anything - there is heat inductance that
resists
rapid change and thus builds up energy.
That is my take on it.
Dave
>"James Templeton" <jam...@globalserve.net> Spaketh Thusly:
>
>>As for cast iron isn't the firebox on a coal forges cast from iron?
They certainly are made of cast iron.
D
Bill
>The very fast rise can stress anything - there is heat inductance that
>resists rapid change and thus builds up energy.
That's what worries me. Point a Reil burner at the center of a very large
piece of room-temp cast iron, I'm afraid it may crack.
--
Bill H.