powder post beetle infestation (BAD)
inthes...@hotmail.com
is a very bad infestation of powder post beetles in the oak logs. From
what I've looked at it appears that Bora-Care and Timbor are the most
frequently recommended treatments. Timbor appears to be the less
expensive of the two, but which is the best? From what I can read the
Bora-Care penetrates better.
Also, what about scrubbing down with Borax? Worth the effort and
trouble?
Thanks!
Ed Welch
Alabama
bu...@bugs.com
On 10-Oct-2005, inthes...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I've got a large project restoring an 1850 vintange log cabin. There
> is a very bad infestation of powder post beetles in the oak logs. From
> what I've looked at it appears that Bora-Care and Timbor are the most
> frequently recommended treatments. Timbor appears to be the less
> expensive of the two, but which is the best? From what I can read the
> Bora-Care penetrates better.
Bora-Care is the better of the two as far as penetration is concerned and
speed of penetration. Are the logs natural or do they have a stain on them?
If they are stained they will also need the Bora-Care treatment.
Also if the infestation is really all that bad you may want to consider
fumigation to get rid of them and get rid of them now not having to wait a
long period of time for them to be gone. Bora-Care or Timbor either one can
take several months to be completely effective.
>
> Also, what about scrubbing down with Borax? Worth the effort and
> trouble?
No it is not worth your trouble unless you want it to look nice. It will not
do anything for the PPB.
--
I wish you all the best
Tim Wise
inthes...@hotmail.com
with the borax.
The logs are naturally weathered oak, approximately 150 years old.
With some decay in places, but overall solid...except for all the tiny
sawdust emitting holes.
I was leaning towards the Bora-Care, but was hoping for a less
expensive alternative. The cabin is a life-long dream of mine, but the
budget got wiped-out when the guy I sub-contracted with skipped out
with the cash. :( Thus, the reason for looking for the less expensive
route.
That said, I know that the cheapest route isn't the best one in most
cases. Can you give me any idea of the cost of having the structure
fumigated? It is approximately 1100 sq ft, 2-story, no windows or
doors installed (but plastic sheeting tacked over the openings).
I'd really like to nail these little wood chewers in the head. Would
the Bora-Care take care of them in time...I've got time, just not much
money. :)
And yes, the infestation is bad...the dust is abundant. Fumigation
would be the best, I'm sure, but if the Bora-Care will do the trick I'm
game for applying it.
One other thing that bothers me is that the mortar chinking is in
place. The structure of the chinking is...a bat of insulation in the
middle with chinking on either side of it. Thus, I won't be able to
apply anything to the tops and bottoms of the logs. Will the adults
emerge into the darkness in the cavity filled by the insulation or will
they seek daylight to come out in?
Many, many thanks for your help,
Ed
Alabama
bu...@bugs.com
do. Keep looking and I will try to get her on here to reply to your
questions, with better answers than what I can give you.
inthes...@hotmail.com
fumigation...wasn't able to find any oufit that does this. But...
I talked with an old gent that actually started out treating structures
for powder post beetles and eventually started digging around the
perimeter of buildings. The state said he was doing termite control so
he had to get licensed, etc.,...which was a good thing for him...that
was over 50 years ago. Anyhow, he mentioned that the Bora-Care would
take care of the ppb but that it did have somewhat of a strong smell.
Anybody had hands-on experience with the smell of it...suitable for the
interior of a dwelling? He went on to mention that a termite treatment
called Termidor would kill the ppb and that it had no smell.
It appears that the main ingedient is 9.1% Fipronil. It's stated as
being "undetectable" and kills by "transfer effect from bug to bug".
What he had was the 80WG version. I've found the SC version online but
have no idea what the difference is between the two. From what I
understand the 80WG comes in a dissolveable packet and the SC comes in
a plastic pour container. Looks like either the packet or the
container makes about 25gal of solution and both run around the same
cost...~$84. A question is...is the 80WG and the SC simply different
designations for packaging or is there a difference in chemistry?
But, the big question is...would it be safe for spraying the inside of
a dwelling with? I've searched and really can't find a good answer to
this quesiton. The general use is for trenching, rodding, and
flooding...I haven't seen anything mentioned about surface spraying.
Of course, this gent went on to say that basically surface spraying
isn't "standard". Said it oughta kill the beetles, though!
Thanks,
Ed
bu...@bugs.com
guy gave you quite a bit of misleading information. Termidor does have
Fipronil in it but when mixed to kill termites it is dilutes down to 0.06%
not 9.1%. And you say this guy is licensed? That is scarey. Termidor WILL
NOT PENETRATE THE WOOD as Bora-Care or Timbor will The Bora-Care will have
an odor when treating yes but now so bad that you can't open the windows and
air the place out. Timbor however will have no odor to very little odor. I
have used Timbor on many occasions and have never been able to detect an
odor. Timbor and Bora-Care are both labeled for treat on the surface and
inside Termidor is not labeled for surface treatments nor is it labeled for
inside treatments. You have to understand in order for the transfer effect
to work the insects have to get in the termidor and the only time the PPB
come out are to die so if they are coming out to die then they will not go
back in to take the Termidor to the other beetles so the transfer effect
will not happen. Not only that but you have to be a licensed professional to
apply Termidor it is right on the label. It is to be sold and applied by
licensed professionals only.
What state are you in?
Lar
inthes...@hotmail.com says...
:) Howdy Tim. I called around today checking on the cost of a whole-house
:) fumigation...wasn't able to find any oufit that does this. But...
:)
:) I talked with an old gent that actually started out treating structures
:) for powder post beetles and eventually started digging around the
:) perimeter of buildings. The state said he was doing termite control so
:) he had to get licensed, etc.,...which was a good thing for him...that
:) was over 50 years ago. Anyhow, he mentioned that the Bora-Care would
:) take care of the ppb but that it did have somewhat of a strong smell.
:) Anybody had hands-on experience with the smell of it...suitable for the
:) interior of a dwelling? He went on to mention that a termite treatment
:) called Termidor would kill the ppb and that it had no smell.
:)
:) It appears that the main ingedient is 9.1% Fipronil. It's stated as
:) being "undetectable" and kills by "transfer effect from bug to bug".
:)
:) What he had was the 80WG version. I've found the SC version online but
:) have no idea what the difference is between the two. From what I
:) understand the 80WG comes in a dissolveable packet and the SC comes in
:) a plastic pour container. Looks like either the packet or the
:) container makes about 25gal of solution and both run around the same
:) cost...~$84. A question is...is the 80WG and the SC simply different
:) designations for packaging or is there a difference in chemistry?
:)
:) But, the big question is...would it be safe for spraying the inside of
:) a dwelling with? I've searched and really can't find a good answer to
:) this quesiton. The general use is for trenching, rodding, and
:) flooding...I haven't seen anything mentioned about surface spraying.
:)
:) Of course, this gent went on to say that basically surface spraying
:) isn't "standard". Said it oughta kill the beetles, though!
:)
:)
:) Thanks,
:) Ed
:)
:)
As Tim mentioned, you have gotten some misleading info on treatment for
them. You might try this site http://www.ipconetwork.org/fmb/cboard.mv
and ask your question there, where you probably will get responses from
PCOs that are experienced in dealing with PPBs in structure, much more
so than me... for sure.
--
Lar
to email....get rid of the BUGS
inthes...@hotmail.com
Safety is a high priority, both during application and later living in
it. The mention of the somewhat strong smell of even the Bora Care
makes me hesitant. Personally...I don't like poisons at all.
Tim, the 9.1% figure is what I got off the label for the product, I
guess the other 90.9% is inert ingredients, you are correct on the .06%
once it's diluted. I was also curious about the efficiency of the
"transfer" aspect...just as you said, if the beetle dies outside the
hole how's it going to transfer it back inside. Scratch the
Termidor....
On to other things.
Looking around some more this evening I came upon Shell-Guard on the
Perma-Chink website. Seems to be one of the safest preservatives to
apply, cost isn't to bad, and it has a glycol(?) that is stated as
being used in women's make-up,etc.,. It is supposedly for both
preventive and remedial use. I've inquired with Perma-Chink regarding
my situation so maybe I can glean a little info from them.
Also, when I was trying to find someone to give me a quote on
fumigating the place I talked to an Orkin rep about the situation,
This rep then transferred me to someone else who told me they didn't do
that. Being curious I went to their website and emailed Orkin about
whole-house fumigating and the situation with the beetles. The terse
reply I got was that "the infestation is probably inactive and you
probably didn't need to do anything".
>From what I've been reading this *might* be true. I've read that the
ppb prefers wood that is really less than 10 years old and being as the
logs are around 150 years old these might be inactive. Might be that
the frass coming out is due to the vibrations that have been going on
within the structure. ??? Interesting thought.
I'm going down to the cabin this weekend, maybe take the shop-vac or at
least broom and clean the frass off the logs and chinking...will keep
an eye on it for a while. Before I vacuum/sweep I'm going to study the
frass good and see if I can tell if it's fresh or not. Of course with
winter coming they might slow down if they're indeed still there.
Spring will be the tell-tale time, I think.
Currently, though, Bora Care, Timbor, and Shell-Guard are in the
running.
Lar, thanks for the link to the website, I might post a message over
there and see what response I get.
Thanks for the help, guys....I certainly need all I can get! :)
Ed
PCOpug
A 1100 square foot log Cabin ?
Two story ?
Can't afford windows ?
Crawl space ?
Wood on ground ?
Needs chinking .
I do believe that a structural engineer would need to evaluate the situation
first .
Also there are issues of water supply , sewerage ,and electricity .
Powder post beetle are very sensitive to relative humidity so adequate
ventilation of basement , and or crawlspace must be addressed .
I have experience in "historic" log structures .
My experience tells me Tim-bor and Bora-Care are just remedial spot remedies
, if the stuff works at all . The PP beetle larvae deep inside the wood is
doing the damage , and will continue because borates penetration will be
difficult in seasoned hardwood .
PCOpug
exit holes. Use crayon, tape, or paint over the holes to see if more holes
appear. Sweep up all powder, and recheck the wood for new holes and powder
at a later date. Since most emergence occurs from April-July, it might be
worthwhile to wait until the following spring to determine if new holes and
fresh powder are present. This is especially true when attempting to make a
determination during the fall or winter months .
Moisture Control
Powderpost beetles, especially Anobiids, have specific moisture requirements
for survival. Since wood moisture levels below 13 percent (during spring and
summer) are generally unsuitable for anobiid development/reinfestation, it's
advisable to install a moisture barrier in the crawl space of infested
buildings. Covering the soil with four to six mil polyethylene reduces
movement of moisture into the substructure and reduces the threat of an
infestation spreading upwards into walls and upper portions of the building.
Most beetles do not develop in wood with a moisture content below 10 to 15
percent.
Another way to lower moisture content in damp crawl spaces is to increase
ventilation. This can be accomplished by installing foundation vents (one
square foot of vent area per 150 square feet of crawl space). Moisture
meters, used by some pest control operators, are useful tools for predicting
the potential reinfestation in wood.
Ibed :
http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2090.html
Shell guard is diatomaceous (fresh water shells) powder in glycol .
inthes...@hotmail.com
Dwelling is 1100 sq ft total. Log cabin portion is ~740 sq ft and
lean-to addition is ~360 sq ft. Lean-to is framed with new lumber but
is/will be trimmed and walled in old house/barn wood. Log cabin part
is 2-story, lean-to is 1-story.
I've already paid for windows but the crook ran with the money and it
is a rather bitter pill. But, windows are on the horizon.
Yes, the cabin has a crawl space...probably 2' clearance at the lowest
point.
No wood on ground, but rather on stone underpinning.
Chinking is installed. Gap consists of fiberglass insulation in the
center, hardware cloth is affixed on either side of this and then a
mortar/cement mix applied to the hardware cloth.
No water, sewage, or electricity system has been attached to the
structure at this point.
Relative humidity down here in south Alabama is pretty high. The cabin
is located in a swamp on a 30' bluff over looking the creek. Basically
morning fog is the largest factor, I think, in regards to actually
wetting things.
QUOTE PCOpug: "My experience tells me Tim-bor and Bora-Care are just
remedial spot remedies
, if the stuff works at all . The PP beetle larvae deep inside the wood
is doing the damage , and will continue because borates penetration
will be
difficult in seasoned hardwood ."
My take on the glycol treatments is that they can not possibly
penetrate to the heartwood center. But, it appears that they do
penetrate well into the sapwood, thus reducing the population to an
unknown, but possibly decent degree. Where I think the borates really
work is during the adult emergence, egg-laying, and subsequent larvae
hatching where the critters come in contact with the treated surface.
Thanks for the link to the article at OSU. I'd read the article the
other day, but went back and read it again. Very informative.
One thing, though. Shell-Guard's and MSDS sheet states that the active
ingredient is Disodium Octoborate Tetrahydrate...the same as Bora-Care
and Timbor.
Ed
aprost...@yahoo.com
contains 25.31% boric acid as the active ingredient. BoraCare contains
40% Boric Acid. They are essentially the same thing with BoraCare
containing more active ingredient hence the price differential between
the 2. Both have ingredients that help them adhere to the wood surface
and enhance penetration. Timbor is also Boric Acid but does not have
the adhesion and penetration qualities of the other 2. In an active
infestion it would be in your best interest to use a product that has
the advatage of increased adhesion and penetration. I use BoraCare
quite a bit and there are NO odor issues.
As for the fumigation I haven't priced one in a decade or so but I
would guess you could expect to spend somoewhere between $2000 - $5000.
You have to remember you are protecting your home so it may be worth
the investment. If it were my home and I opted for the fumigation I
would still do the BoraCare treatment since the fumigation will kill
what is there if done properly but has no residual life at all. In
theory it could be re-infested the day after the tarps are removed.
If any of the wood has been sealed the wood will need to have the
finish removed or sanded off prior to treatment with BoraCare or any
other of the products that are topically applied.
Ibed is also right on with the moisture control! Be surre you get that
taken care of!
Good luck!
Ron J
PCOpug
I see that your cabin does not have the normal necessities .
First order would be to place contractors plastic over ground area within
crawlspace . Can be obtained cheaply at Sams Club or hardware store 9 mil or
more .
inthes...@hotmail.com
It's interesting about the difference in cost between Bora-Care and
Shell-Guard. You would think that the difference in amounts of active
ingredient is the cause of the price difference. But, if you look at
Timbor, which consists of ~95% active ingredient, it appears cheaper
or comparable in cost to either of the two mentioned above. I think
the primary cost difference is the glycols that are added. I may be
entirely wrong on this, but if it's the cost of the glycol that
increases the cost of either BC or SG, then it looks like BC might be
getting a very good premium for that extra ~15% of boric acid. ????
I will definitely go with a glycol-based treatment...
I'll check the moisture barrier under the cabin this weekend. I know
there's plastic in the crawl space, but I'm finding lots of
questionable things after the guy I hired as foreman skipped out on me.
PCOpug, no problem on the DE/Shell-Guard thing...I'm still learning and
you're WAY ahead of me. :) Thanks for a very good article.
I'm also wondering about old house borers now. Someone brought up to
me that oblong holes can indicate these borers. Looking back at some
older close-up pictures of some outside logs I see some oblong holes.
BTW, so ya'll can get an idea of the project, here is a link to a
little website I started showing the building progress. Since the
crook skipped out on me it hasn't been added to and the cabin is
further along...the chimney is completed except for the chimney-top
damper and all chinking is in place, along with a few other items.
The cabin link: http://userpages.troycable.net/~welchs/index.html
Take care and thanks for the continued help!
Ed
bu...@bugs.com
said that PPB liked wood 10 years old or younger, that is not true that is
true of Old house borers though. PPB pick any age wood where the OHB prefer
wood 10 years old or younger. Contrary to their name "Old" House Borers.
The biggest difference between Timbor and Bora-Care is the penetrating
factor. Bora-Care will penetrate all the way to the heart of thew wood where
Timbor will not. There is a man at the company Nissus you need to be asking
these questions to. I will look up his email address and email it to you. He
wouldn't want it posted in open forum like this due to spam. Is this hotmail
account a good one to email it to?
sam.cor...@earthlink.net
to for a control strategy until you have identified the beetle species
you are dealing with. The phrase 'powder-post beetle' is a generic
one, kind of like saying you have a 'chevy' or a 'ford'. Find a
company that can provide you with a good, detailed inspection. You
need to know if these are lyctids, anobiids, or some other kind of wood
infesting beetle.
You mention oak logs, so i assume you mean the structural timbers
instead of oak flooring planks? Lyctid beetles are viable in
low-moisture wood pieces, while anobiid's require higher moisture, and
i notice you mentioned low clearance under part of the home? Is the
entire home made of oak, or just the flooring? Lyctid beetles attack
hardwoods only, while Anobiids attack both softwoods (such as pine and
cedar) and hardwoods. Knowing what you have will determine the areas
that require treatment, so find out.
Are the small exit holes? If so, then you can rule out other wood
infesting beetles such as the Old House Borer or Metallic Borers.
ShellGuard, Timbor, and BoraCare will all work fine, if you can get
the proper application rate onto wood. Though mfgs will suggest that
BoraCare with its glycern carrier is better they all work just fine.
Borate products are solubles that move until they reach equilibrium so
you will get proper penetration regardless of product. However, the
ShellGuard products that I have tested are designed primarily for deck
sealing...dont use a product that has a sealing agent in it.
Also remember that borate products will not work on wood that has
sealed poors! If you are dealing with an oak floor you will have to
strip/sand the flooring down to open pores prior to treatment; if logs,
then the same is needed - most log cabins have structural logs sealed.
Also remember that the borate application will probably leave a fine
white powder after drying, which will require wiping before
restaining-sealing. And last, borates force pre-emergence of beetle
pupae, which means you have new holes appear within 2-3 weeks after
treatment. This doesnt mean the treatment didnt work, but dont apply
finishes until this has ocurred.
These products move with moisture content in wood, and you should
try and make application to as many different surfaces as possible.
Having said that, that movement is in all directions, and you will get
lateral movement under your chinking, so dont worry about it.
True powder post beetles - lyctid beetles- attack what we call 'new
wood' due to nutrient requirements, so your comment that the cabin is
150 years old makes me wonder if you actually have lyctid beetle
activity? Could be anobiids, so do get the evaulation, and if you have
only 2" of clearance, you need to dig out that crawl or you will have a
bigger problem with moisture-fungus-rot than with the beetles.
A fumigation for beetles is expensive, as the gas dosage needs to be
significantly higher than for other pests. I would think there are
good fumigatiors in Alabama, and would call the state or the pest
control assoc for a list of fumjigators, but be prepared for a price
quote of between $4000 - $10000 for beetles.
And dont forget to go back to the beginning, and get a good
inspection by someone with some depth.
sam
Hawaii Fumigation
have first. Some beetles simply move on while others will re-infest.
If structural fumigation is not available in your area, Boracare will
be a viable choice for treatment, but remember that such applications
are limited to unfinished wood. On a side note, tent fumigation (with
Vikane) for powder post beetles requires 10 times the amount of gas
dosage compared to drywood termites. Needless to say, the cost of
fumigating for powder post beetles will be steep, especially if
fumigation is not commonly offered in your area.
C. Plasman
<A HREF="http://www.hawaiifumigation.com">Hawaii Fumigation & Pest
Control</A>
inthes...@hotmail.com
out which treatment to use. I'm leaning towards eitherr Bora-Care or
Shell-Guard.
Tim: Yes, the hotmail account is a valid one. From doing my self
(shakey) education it appears that Timbor is a heavier concentration of
DOT, but being as it lacks the glycols it won't penetrate as the
glycol-based ones will. This being said it would probably do a good
job of getting the adults as they emerge, but the juveniles inside the
wood will remain mostly unaffected by it...except for seepage into the
wood through cracks, holes, etc.,. Thus, for now I'm going to
concentrate on Bora-Care and Shell-Guard.
I had someone looks at an image of some of the holes and he stated that
these were "hammer-head" beetles or some other type...basically the
holes were made while the trees were probably still alive. But, the
infestation that I've pretty much confirmed is active I believe is
powder post beetles...lyctic or anobiids...I'm not sure, but the logs
are old oak.
Sam: The logs are oak, the rest of the house timber and floors is
mostly old lightered pine....really nice grain, but dirty and already
in place.
The holes are tiny, sometimes hard to tell exactly which hole the dust
comes from. I have noticed a few small spots where there'll be a
round, slightly raised, flat spot of what looks like mud about the
color of the wood dust. This spot is generally slightly smaller in
diameter than a dime.
I'm thinking the glycols probably do help in penetration due to
possibly having a better initial adhesive characteristic and because
they probably don't evaporate as quickly as the straight water-based
products (Timbor) do. Slower evaporation allows the solution more time
to soak into the wood. Just might thoughts. :)
I didn't see anything regarding Shell-Guard being a sealing type of
treatment. The glycols involved are propylene and polyethylene
glycols, I'm not a chemist so I don't know if either one of these would
be considered a sealer. Here's a link to the Shell-Guard page on the
NovaGuard website...there are links to both label and msds sheets:
http://www.novaguard.com/shellguard.html
All the wood in the cabin is un-sealed, natural surfaced wood. Some
new wood was used in the framing of the lean-to. We haven't
stained/sealed any of the wood. The only painted surface is the wood
used for the ceiling in the lean-to (pine?) and it was painted umpteen
years ago...mostly all worn/faded away. Pressure-treated wood was used
on the porch, support sills under the house, and on a few exposed
areas.
Hmm, the white powder residue is interesting. The logs are really
rough, hand-hewn logs with some decay sporadically through them. Lot's
of rough surfaces which would be a pain to try to wipe/clean off.
Maybe the shop-vac with a brush attachment? I just got through going
over the entire log walls, chinking, and floor cracks this weekend with
the vacuum.
Thanks for the tip on the pre-emergence of the beetles. My idea is to
go ahead and treat soon, let it soak in good, and let the surface
remain "as is" until the summer. I've got several
projects...retrieving some tongue-groove wall boards from an old house,
purchasing windows and installing, etc., to keep me busy for a while.
I figure I'll be creating some more dust myself so when I'm through
with the panelling and windows I can do the surface clean-up then. By
that time the adults that didn't come out soon after treatment will
come out in the spring/early-summer on regular schedule and be greeted
by the full layer of borate residue. :)
Er, the 2" clearance is actually 2'(feet) or maybe better. Nothing
sitting close to the ground. I checked the vapor barrier (plastic)
under the cabin and it pretty well covers the ground...though I can see
where it needs tidying up a bit to create a tighter barrier.
C. Plasman and Sam: I've pretty much ruled out fumigation...for a
couple of reasons. The first being the anticipated cost. The second
being that it's a one-shot treatment that doesn't mean the beetles
won't return after the fumigators are gone. I think the borate
treatment is the way to go.
To all: I've updated my little cabin website with some later-stage
images. Some of the pictures might not interest you, but you can get a
good idea of the structure, wood surfaces, log-ends(which I'm figuring
on treating and sealing heavily), and there's one shot of the beetle
evidence. Here's the updated link (actually the same link as above):
http://userpages.troycable.net/~welchs/index.html
Hopefully the link works ok. There's 180 images posted with thumbnail
interface, so for dial-up users...go make a cup of coffee while the
index loads. :) Be sure to at least scroll to the bottom and see my
new neighbor.<g>
Hmmm, maybe Bora-Care on the exterior walls and Shell-Guard on the
interior...and let'em meet in the middle. :)
Thanks again!
Ed
South Alabama
PCOpug
Man , I thought we discussing a log building restore hundred plus years old
.
The new fangled structure will probably last beyond two lifetimes without
treatment .
shash...@gmail.com
LenJP
shash...@gmail.com <shash...@gmail.com> typed:
music in the background -- made me want to just turn them off.
How could something like this possibly work for a large home. It talks
about placed that huge device on one spot for up to 7 minutes at a time.
Then what?, move it to the next spot?
What about locations where there is metal and/or electrical wires. Won't
that be a huge problem with microwave?
It just seems silly to me.