What OKLA citizens believe about the blast
Dale Switzer
Folks, Those of us in Central Oklahoma have followed the news of the
bombing very closely. Very few of us do not know at least 1 victim. We
probably all know several rescue workers. We have been to the blast
site from the first week and have taken our friends from other places
there several times since. We have a pretty good idea of the size of
the blast, the affects of the blast, and we followed the investigation
more closely than the rest of the country.
We have many local reporters with multiple local sources who are just
itching for a pulitzer prize for getting some scoop on this
investigation.
I, for one, know that characters involved in the grand jury
investigation. State Rep. Charles Key once tried to recruit me to run
for the state house. One of his right hand men on the petition
circulators is a supporter of mine who once made the effort to get me as
a guest on several national talk shows. He actually succeeded once or
twice.
There are probably many others here in ok.general who have similar
contacts.
I thought I would describe the range of opinions of the people who have
followed this closely and who are really interested in finding out
everyone who was involved in the destruction of our city's downtown.
Percentage of people who believe that McVeigh and Nichols worked alone
on the project and did not have other help ------ 10 to 20 percent.
This is the number of people who answer "yes" when asked "Do you think
that the Government is telling the truth about the bombing?" Very few
people are in this group.
Percentage of people who believe that there is was a small conspiracy
among the white separatist movement to destroy some big government
building. The government should have known about this and probably did,
but did not take it seriously (This is the Carol Howe testimony and John
Doe #2 rumours). 50 to 70 percent.
Percentage of people who believe that the ATF had stupidly stored some
confiscated explosives in their office complex. This theory is
supported by the second false bomb scare which cost so many lives. 20 to
30 percent.
Percentage of people who believe that the government was conducting some
sort of Sting operation to incite McVeigh and Nichols to attempt to
explode a federal building. The "Sting Operation gone wrong" theory. 5
to 10 percent.
Percentage of people who believe that the government intentionally blew
up its own building at a time of the day and week when the maximum
number of Social Security Customers and Day Care babies would be
there. .01 to .1 percent. In other words about 100 to maybe 1000
people in Oklahoma.
I, personally, am in the 70% of people who believe that there is a John
Doe #2 who got away and the government is trying to hide that fact. I
consider the Stupid ATF explosive story to be possible, although I hope
that it is not true. I consider the "Sting Operation gone wrong" to be
highly unlikely. I simply don't think that our investigating agents are
that incompetent.
The "ATF intentionally killed babies" idea to be a belief of someone who
probably got off their medicine and needs another trip to the funny farm
to get stabilized again. Oklahoma has mental care facilities for a few
thousand.
If those of you from Oklahoma think that my range is off, please correct
me.
Dale
Raptor
Dale Switzer wrote:
> Percentage of people who believe that the ATF had stupidly stored some
> confiscated explosives in their office complex. This theory is
> supported by the second false bomb scare which cost so many lives. 20 to
> 30 percent.
How many lives were cost by the second bomb scare, and why? The DEA or Customs
is rumored to have had an inert TOW or LAW missile.
--
Lynn Wallace Remove "nospam" to email me.
The real conspiracy is that kooks like Ian Goddard can command the
attention of the world while skeptical, reasoned respondents are
kept stuffed away in the anonymity of the internet.
Ben R.
On Sat, 06 Dec 1997 02:30:25 GMT, jmo...@galstar.com (Jerry Morgan)
was caught saying:
>Welcome to ok.general boys, check your bullshit at the door! ;-)
>
Amen Jerry. Who here doesn't know someone directly affected by the
bomb? I'd be surprised if very many people here don't. I know a EMT
who happened to be OKC that day and helped set up the triages. A
victim who still has glass in his back. And one of the dead.
I agree , I find it most disturbing the people that believe the
stories by what they hear not what they have seen. But people love a
good theory. If you have first-hand knowledge and have seen evidence
in person you may have a point. If your just seeing it on the TV or
the Internet than you really don't know the whole story.
I have seen "Shocking photo Evidence" that was completely wrong. How
many people that believe have seen the site? Believe me, the scars
are still all around downtown. What looks like an abandoned building
in some places, was once a thriving office building. The scariest is
the damage they don't talk about downtown and the people that think
APM was the only building damaged. Ask my father-in-law about his
office branch in downtown OKC. They are several blocks north of the
blast site. It moved a solid oak credenza 12" away from the wall and
took down ceiling tiles.
I learned from my 8th science teacher. "Don't believe anything you
hear and half of what you see." I still believe that thoery.
Ben Randle
http://www.galstar.com/~firetek
remove the extra .com to e-mail
E. Faubion
jmo...@galstar.com (Jerry Morgan) wrote:
>A lot of people that are following these OKC bombing threads from
>newsgroups other than ok.general are probably surprised at the
>resounding lack of support for these conspiracy theories from those
>that reside in Oklahoma and OKC in particular but it's merely
>reflective of the nature of most of us "Okies".
Monday Morning Quarterbacks abound in this fine country of ours.
Fortunately they are rarely in a position to do any more than make
noise and that's as it should be.
ncorp
On Fri, 05 Dec 1997 16:54:55 -0600, Dale Switzer <dale.s...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:
>Folks, Those of us in Central Oklahoma have followed the news of the
><snipped only slightly above-average trollbait>
********************************
ncorp sez... not a bad pro*pig*andist troll professor switzer. Who knows, with
a little practice, maybe you could join up with your happy baby-killing pals
at one of BB’s many nefarious Mintrue divisions, like the Federal Bureau of
Intimidation, or Bulldozers, Atrocities, Torture and Flame-throwers, or...?(!)
By the looks of it, I think you should fit right **in** just perfectly, bub:
“Troll: A deliberately disrupting, confused and incorrect post (or one posting
trolls) to a Usenet group to generate a flurry of responses from people called
‘billygoats’ trying to set the record straight. Other trollers enter the fray
adding more and more misinformation so that the thread eventually dies of
strangulation. Trolls/trollers cannot be affected by facts or logic.”
——bashford/anonymous (censored by the central scrutinizer)
Those *interested* in the *government-sponsored* OKC atrocity are directed to:
• OKLAHOMA CITY BOMB REPORT
This report on the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma
City was prepared by Brigadier General Benton K. Partin, USAF (Ret.)
and dated July 30, 1995. The report was submitted to the U.S. Congress
and is a matter of the Congressional Record:
<http://www.parascope.com/mx/okm.htm>
We now return to your regularly-scheduled sheople-goyim mind programming...
Smoke ’em while you still got ’em, :)
DJM —— noncorporate consultants
nc...@slavecamp.nwo
********************************
John Moore
In <3488c171...@news.galstar.com> fir...@broken.com (Ben R.)
writes:
>On Sat, 06 Dec 1997 02:30:25 GMT, jmo...@galstar.com (Jerry Morgan)
>was caught saying:
>
>>Welcome to ok.general boys, check your bullshit at the door! ;-)
>>
>
>Amen Jerry. Who here doesn't know someone directly affected by the
>bomb? I'd be surprised if very many people here don't. I know a EMT
>who happened to be OKC that day and helped set up the triages. A
>victim who still has glass in his back. And one of the dead.
>
>I agree , I find it most disturbing the people that believe the
>stories by what they hear not what they have seen. But people love a
>good theory. If you have first-hand knowledge and have seen evidence
>in person you may have a point. If your just seeing it on the TV or
>the Internet than you really don't know the whole story.
So what is the "whole story"? How do you explain the damage allegedly
caused by an explosive charge in the truck, yards from the building,
which had only a fraction of the 3500 p/si required to collapse
reinforced concrete as used in the Murrah building?
E. Faubion
jmo...@ix.netcom.com(John Moore ) wrote:
>So what is the "whole story"?
That's something no one person will ever know. This 'story' (as are
so many others) is far too large for any single person to ever
understand it all. It takes a cooperative effort to put the pieces
back together and anytime you get that many different people and their
input there are bound to be glitches and differences of opinion, some
of which may never get explained.
>How do you explain the damage allegedly
>caused by an explosive charge in the truck, yards from the building,
>which had only a fraction of the 3500 p/si required to collapse
>reinforced concrete as used in the Murrah building?
That's another of those questions that can probably never be
accurately answered. How does anyone know the exact destructive force
of the bomb? We don't, and we probably never will. Even Timmy
himself if he was to open his cruddy little mouth and tell us the
details would be able to help us reconstruct a replica with enough
accuracy to know. What we can say for certain is that it was a
powerful bomb and that few if any people who've worked with explosive
devices of that magnitude are surprised at anything that happens in a
blast like that.
ef
Michael Rivero
In article <348883...@bigfoot.com>,
Dale Switzer <dale.s...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> I consider the "Sting Operation gone wrong" to be
>highly unlikely. I simply don't think that our investigating agents are
>that incompetent.
Then you didn't read thre New York Times article on the World Trade
Towers bombing, did you? Seems that one of the bombers was an FBI
informant, and asked permission to sabotage the bomb. Permission was
REFUSED, and the bomb went off.
As for Oklahoma, it doesn't matter what kind of a lie is being told;
that we are being lied to at all by our government is totally unacceptible.
By your figures, 90% of the Oklahomans believe they are being lied
to. That's about par with the latest nation wide surveys.
That's tjhe important fact we can all agree on.; the government is
lying about something.
--
Mike & Claire - The Rancho Runnamukka http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/
SEE WHY THE CIA'S SIMULATION OF TWA 800 IS A FRAUD!
http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/CRASH/TWA/CIAVIDEO/ciavideo.html
Michael Rivero
In article <3488c144...@news.okc.oklahoma.net>,
So, if I read you right, it's your opinion that when the government
lies to the people, "that's as it should be" that nobody is supposed to
do anything about it?
Tim D.
Dale Switzer wrote:
>
> Folks, Those of us in Central Oklahoma have followed the news of the
>
> I thought I would describe the range of opinions [...]
This is very good information...
> Percentage of people who believe that McVeigh and Nichols worked alone
> on the project and did not have other help ------ 10 to 20 percent.
>
> This is the number of people who answer "yes" when asked "Do you think
> that the Government is telling the truth about the bombing?" Very few
> people are in this group.
I got mixed up here, though. This is a different question
than from the first, right? And I have a comment about this
at the end...
> [...]
> I, personally, am in the 70% of people who believe that there is a
> John Doe #2 who got away and the government [...]
To me, THIS is the most puzzling piece of the whole thing...
> If those of you from Oklahoma think that my range is off,
> please correct me.
If your numbers are correct, then the people of Oklahoma are
more reasonable than this newsgroup would lead one to
believe!
The one thing I see as questionable is your reference to
"the Government". I'm not saying that YOU are the one with
the screwed up opinion, but to believe "The Government" is
some kind of cohesive unit that conspires against us is a
mistkae. Refering to the government like "the Government is
telling the truth" and "The government should have known",
"the government was conducting", "the government
intentionally", and "the government is trying to hide the
fact"...this is misleading and furthers conspiratorial
paranoia. MAY BE someone IN THE GOVERNMENT...MAY BE...
-t
--
-tim d.
mailto:ti...@ghg.net
http://www.ghg.net/timd
Ben R.
On 6 Dec 1997 07:34:33 GMT, jmo...@ix.netcom.com(John Moore ) was
caught saying:
>So what is the "whole story"? How do you explain the damage allegedly
>caused by an explosive charge in the truck, yards from the building,
>which had only a fraction of the 3500 p/si required to collapse
>reinforced concrete as used in the Murrah building?
And again what is your source for this information? How do YOU know
what the blast force pressure was? How do YOU know what forces were
needed to collapse the building? You know the whole story do you?
Did I say that I knew the whole story? And last of all, what do you
know about ANFO?
Oh, I forgot Partin told you himself right. Frankly you people just
don't want to believe that it might just be possible that some
militant nut thought he would blow up the APM Federal Bldg to make us
pay for Waco. Thanks, the innocent citizens of Oklahoma appreciate
it. In the mean time, it just got harder for militia types to support
their opinions of freedom. But that is why the gov't blew it up in
the first place right?
John Moore
In <348955bb...@204.251.80.3> jmo...@galstar.com (Jerry Morgan)
writes:
>jmo...@ix.netcom.com(John Moore ) wrote:
>
>>So what is the "whole story"? How do you explain the damage allegedly
>>caused by an explosive charge in the truck, yards from the building,
>>which had only a fraction of the 3500 p/si required to collapse
>>reinforced concrete as used in the Murrah building?
>>
>
>the truck bomb also suffered similar damage.
>
So other buildings of a similar construction (date within last 20
years) were so damaged that they had to be razed to the ground?
>The Y.M.C.A., the Water Resources Board, the Athenian Restaurant and
>others exhibited collapsed "reinforced concrete" structural supports
>(what structural concrete isn't reinforced?) and massive destruction
>just like the APM building did.
>
I have seen no reports of other buildings being razed or destroyed to
the point that occupancy was no longer possible.
>Don't believe me,
I don't,you haven't given any evidence. If the Y.M.C.A. and other two
buildings had damage severe enough to collapse reinforced concrete
floors or supporting columns this would be recorded with the city.
There would be an official report on the damage and a safety violation
recorded.
>You have eyes, do you not?
>
>Go look for yourself!
>
>Be forewarned however the "conspiracy" must still be ongoing as the
>remaining hulks of buildings around the site are scheduled for
>demolition soon.
>
There are several problems with your statement above. First
the ages of these other buildings may be considerably older and of
older contruction methods and materials. Second we need evidence that
reinforced concrete floors and/or columns in these other 3 buildings
failed. Third we need to know the exact reason for the demolition. The
buildings may have been so old that the collateral damage (not
sructural) cost more to repair than the value of the building.
In the 3rd case above it would make more sense to raze the older
buildings than to repair them.
Now ask yourself one other question. Why was the Murrah building razed
in about 6 weeks after the blast yet these other buildings, alleged by
you to be equally damaged, were not and are still standing?
John Moore
Mr. Faubion, please make a better effort next time.
In <34896f4...@news.okc.oklahoma.net> efau...@oklahoma.net (E.
Faubion) writes:
>
>jmo...@ix.netcom.com(John Moore ) wrote:
>
>>So what is the "whole story"?
>
>That's something no one person will ever know.
Well that's not very nice. You implied you did know the whole story
that's why I asked.
> This 'story' (as are
>so many others) is far too large for any single person to ever
>understand it all.
Ah yes Sahib, let us place our fate in the hands of the gods.
> It takes a cooperative effort to put the pieces
>back together
yawn... Am I getting the "whole story" now?
> and anytime you get that many different people and their
>input there are bound to be glitches and differences of opinion, some
>of which may never get explained.
>
Yes, like your reply to my question?
>>How do you explain the damage allegedly
>>caused by an explosive charge in the truck, yards from the building,
>>which had only a fraction of the 3500 p/si required to collapse
>>reinforced concrete as used in the Murrah building?
>
>That's another of those questions that can probably never be
>accurately answered.
Yawn .... Well Mr. "Whole story" this is only a story full of holes!!
Raptor
Jerry Morgan wrote:
> Raptor <law...@nospam.xmission.com> wrote:
> >How many lives were cost by the second bomb scare, and why? The DEA or Customs
> >is rumored to have had an inert TOW or LAW missile.
>
> I don't think there is any way of actually knowing how many lives were
> lost owing to the forced evacuation of the rescue and medical aid
> workers in connection with the false bomb scare.
>
> The *facts* are that most of the survivors were removed from the
> rubble within the first couple of hours following the blast, although
> a few were rescued much later.
>
> Anything that prevented the rescue workers from finding and treating
> surviving victims would by logic have increased the death toll as the
> "odds" of any given victim surviving decreased with the passage of
> time.
Granted. I am picking a nit, I believe. But note that it is impossible to know
whether any lives were lost as a result of the bomb scare(s).
Pat McCraughtch
>I, personally, am in the 70% of people who believe that there is a John
>consider the Stupid ATF explosive story to be possible, although I hope
>highly unlikely. I simply don't think that our investigating agents are
>that incompetent.
Why couldn't they be that incompetent? What you describe is
apparently exactly what happened at the World Trade Center. According
to the trial transcripts, the FBI was supposed to have the explosive
substituted. I'm sure you are aware of the disastrous screw-up
committed by the BATF at Waco, Texas. They constantly barge into the
wrong houses, sometimes stomping pets to death in their quest for the
intimidation factor. The other agencies hate 'em. The only reason
they haven't been sucked into an agency like the FBI is that the FBI
refused to take them. They're called "F Troop" by the other feds.
Oh, hell yes they're VERY incompetent. And they're vicious. Back
during "IRS reform" I heard one guy put it very succinctly: When the
government found out there was an excess in the coyote population a
few years ago in Yellowstone Park, they put out poison. All the
stupid coyotes ate the poison and died, with the result that we now
have very intelligent coyotes. It's similar with IRS agents (and
probably every other agency) as well. The good people leave after
five or six years because they can't stand what they have to do to
their fellow human beings. That leaves us with all the mean, vicious
lying people for the most part. Hell yes, if they thought it would
serve their own interests and fund their agency, they'd set up a sting
operation. Except this time they got double-crossed. That's why
"Angela" and the head ATF guy disappeared for a while. They don't
want to have to answer the tough questions.
As for the stored explosives, there is ample evidence for that. Do
you remember all the bomb scares they had during the rescue
operations? Oh, they told us they were "practice" devices, but anyone
familiar with anything at all knows that practice materials are
labeled with yellow and/or orange. Do you remember that fake elevator
hero rescue story? One of the elevator repairmen was talking to some
feds and he said he overheard a fed talking on a phone. The fed was
yelling, "I was an architect for 11 years. I'm telling you something
else went off inside that building down in the corner."
FWIW, the "reporter" from The Daily Oklahoman is SLEEPING during the
trial. The AP guy may be up in the press room listening, but he's not
in the courtroom.
Pat McCraughtch
>That's another of those questions that can probably never be
>of the bomb? We don't, and we probably never will. Even Timmy
Explosive forces are quite well known. The experts can tell you how
much and what kind of damage you will get from a given amount of
explosives. The government can't *prove* that it was an ammonium
nitrate/fuel oil bomb. They know the approximate explosive force and
know that sort of explosives fall within that range. A report by FEMA
said it would have taken 12,300 pounds of ANFO to cause that sort of
damage, which doesn't square with the "fact" that we "know" it was an
ANFO bomb. An FBI agent refused during the trial to say that it was
ANFO. Another admitted that a handle from the truck contained pitting
from a high-velocity explosive. ANFO is LOW-velocity. This is stuff
that's coming from the gummint, so are they the conspiracy theorists?
E. Faubion
patrick.m...@juno.com (Pat McCraughtch) wrote:
>Explosive forces are quite well known. The experts can tell you how
>much and what kind of damage you will get from a given amount of
>explosives.
This is true, however experts within a given field will often reach
different conclusions even with the same evidence since there are so
many small variables that can make a difference. I work in a field of
forensic science where the evidence is rarely absolute so it's natural
that the conclusions my fellow investigators and I reach are not
always the same.
ef
John Moore
In <348ad33b...@news.galstar.com> fir...@broken.com (Ben R.)
writes:
>>So what is the "whole story"? How do you explain the damage allegedly
>>caused by an explosive charge in the truck, yards from the building,
>>which had only a fraction of the 3500 p/si required to collapse
>>reinforced concrete as used in the Murrah building?
>
>what the blast force pressure was?
Yawn... I mentioned it several times ---- the Partin report.
The blast force pressure at distance x from the origin is proportional
to the inverse cube of that distance. The blast pressure at the origin
is given in the Partin report, based on the potential energy of the
explosive's chemical components.
> How do YOU know what forces were
>needed to collapse the building?
Yawn... this is the point of our discussion. According to one poster
that is 30 psi of overpressure. However the WTC clearly contradicts
this.
> You know the whole story do you?
Well, this is rather circular. It was implied by the previous poster
that I didn't know the whole story so I asked for the whole story. He
wrote, in a round about manner, that he didn't know the whole story.
So if you know the whole story then please tell us.
>Did I say that I knew the whole story?
I really can't tell what you know.
E. Faubion
riv...@accessone.com (Michael Rivero) wrote:
>>Monday Morning Quarterbacks abound in this fine country of ours.
>>Fortunately they are rarely in a position to do any more than make
>>noise and that's as it should be.
>So, if I read you right, it's your opinion that when the government
>lies to the people, "that's as it should be" that nobody is supposed to
>do anything about it?
You read me wrong. I'm saying there is no shortage of people who know
to criticize something they themselves can't or won't do. Hindsight
is cheap.
ef
Sheldon Sheps
patrick.m...@juno.com (Pat McCraughtch) wrote:
>>That's another of those questions that can probably never be
>>accurately answered. How does anyone know the exact destructive force
>>of the bomb? We don't, and we probably never will. Even Timmy
>
>Explosive forces are quite well known. The experts can tell you how
>much and what kind of damage you will get from a given amount of
>explosives. The government can't *prove* that it was an ammonium
>nitrate/fuel oil bomb. They know the approximate explosive force and
>know that sort of explosives fall within that range. A report by FEMA
>said it would have taken 12,300 pounds of ANFO to cause that sort of
>damage, which doesn't square with the "fact" that we "know" it was an
>ANFO bomb.
Baloney. I've got the report. You can get the report through FEMA.
This report does not even mention the composition of the bomb. Not
once.
What does the report say?
- That you determine the power of an explosive for these purposes in
its equivalent in TNT.
- That you measure the crater made and the composition of the
materials through which the crater was created
- That you compare those results against test explosions on various
materials in a US Army report TM5-855-1, "Fundamentals of Protective
Design for Conventional Weapons Effects", 1986
- That the best match for the crater size and materials is the
equivalent of 4000 lbs of TNT.
Where does 12,300 lbs come from? Someone probably took some amount of
ANFO converted it to TNT and said that it would take 12,300 lbs of
ANFO to reach the equivalent of 4000 lbs of TNT. I heard J.D. Cash
say this on the Chuck Harder show.
Does it prove that the bomb wasn't merely 4800 lbs of ANFO? Yes. I
don't know of any conversion factor from ANFO to TNT that is high
enough.
Does it matter?
Here's SOME Q & A.
1. Q: Could you fit 4000 lbs of TNT (or the equivalent in other
explosives) into the back of a Ryder truck and drive it down the
street?
A:Yes. The Ryder truck has a legal limit of 5000 lbs and a design
limit of 8000 lbs. So if you have 8000 lbs of explosives and a
conversion rate (overall) to TNT of 50% you've got the equivalent of
4000 lbs of TNT.
2. Q: Was the FBI sloppy in saying that the bomb was 4800 lbs of ANFO,
enough after the crater survey was available and up until just before
the McVeigh trial?
A: Yes.
3. Q: Are the characteristics of the blast similar to that expected of
an AN based explosive?
A: Yes, it was a medium performance high-explosive. The British
expert Linda Jones described in detail, the signs that indicated that
the bomb was ammonium nitrate based.
4. Q: Could McVeigh and other have made such a bomb?
A: Yes, especially considering that we know that McVeigh bought 165
gallons of nitro methane. AN nitromethane is much more powerful than
just ANFO.
5. Q. How much more powerful than ANFO?
A: I don't have the numbers but a lot more powerful.
> An FBI agent refused during the trial to say that it was
>ANFO. Another admitted that a handle from the truck contained pitting
>from a high-velocity explosive. ANFO is LOW-velocity. This is stuff
>that's coming from the gummint, so are they the conspiracy theorists?
There's some confusion in terms. ANFO is a high explosive like C4,
TNT and other blasting gels. It is not a high performance high
explosive. Low explosives are materials such as black powder.
--
Sheldon Sheps
Militia - History and Law FAQ
http://www.militia-watchdog.org/faq1.htm
You don't have to agree with what's in it.
But it sure explains a lot of the issues.
I am researching OKC bombS
theories and welcome any new material.
*********************************************
Tim D.
Michael A. Clem wrote:
> [...]
> > to believe "The Government" is
> > some kind of cohesive unit that conspires against us is a
>
> -Good point. "The Government" is a whole bunch of people from The
> President on down to file clerks who have different jobs, different
> levels of knowledge and competence. [...]
Thank you! :)
> Dale Switzer's "range of opinions" is interesting, but is it really
> "good information"? The question remains: did Timothy McVeigh
> intentionally make and set off the bomb that caused all that damage and
> killed and injured all those people? The answers have not been
> adequate.
> I don't tend to believe in conspiracy theories, but it is very easy to
> believe that we don't have (and may never have) the "whole story". [...]
Well, we'll have to just wait and see if McVeigh "comes
clean" some time in the future. In so many of these cases
(assassinations, accidental deaths, suicides, government
cover-ups, major accidents, spy cases, police actions, etc.
etc.) we can NEVER know ALL the details, so there will
always SOME doubt and controversy. I guess sometimes you
have to rely on a leap of faith...? Of course, different
people will leap in different directions...and different
distances! :)
> It was a high-publicity case, so I'm sure the jury was under enormous
> pressure to return a guilty verdict, but did the prosecution REALLY
> prove McVeigh's guilt "beyond all reasonable doubt"?? [...]
It's funny that we talk about guilty vs. innocent verdicts
as being so objective...what is "reasonable doubt"?
Pat McCraughtch
> Dale Switzer's "range of opinions" is interesting, but is it really
> "good information"? The question remains: did Timothy McVeigh
> intentionally make and set off the bomb that caused all that damage and
> killed and injured all those people? The answers have not been
> adequate.
Witnesses say McVeigh had previously made small ANFO bombs for
shooting off "out in the desert" and that he didn't have much luck.
ANFO is a pretty hard substance to detonate all at once, and it's
stretching credibility to have us believe that anyone could detonate
multiple barrels all at once and have all of it ignite. The stuff has
to go off all at once. Even so, it leaves a heck of a lot of residue.
Was Timothy McVeigh involved? No doubt. Did he make the bomb that
went off inside that truck? Hmmmmm. Was it for sure an ANFO bomb?
Hmmmmm. Can we call him Lee Harvey McVeigh? Looks that way.
Dale Switzer
Tim D. wrote:
>
> Dale Switzer wrote:
> > Percentage of people who believe that McVeigh and Nichols worked alone
> > on the project and did not have other help ------ 10 to 20 percent.
> >
> > This is the number of people who answer "yes" when asked "Do you think
> > that the Government is telling the truth about the bombing?" Very few
> > people are in this group.
>
> I got mixed up here, though. This is a different question
> than from the first, right?
Not really. The Government claims that Nichols and McVeigh worked alone
and there is no John Doe 2. The reason that the govt claims this is
that these are the only guys that they can catch and convict. They do
not want it said that they let one of the murderers get away.
> If your numbers are correct, then the people of Oklahoma are
> more reasonable than this newsgroup would lead one to
> believe!
>
This is the what I was trying to show. The people posting in this
thread that believe all the nutso conspiracy theories are not from
Oklahoma. They are the members of the alt.current-events.cli.....etc
groups.
ok.general does not have a large percentage of people who got off their
medicine and need another visit with the men in the white suits who give
brand new jackets with special sleeves.
> The one thing I see as questionable is your reference to
> "the Government". I'm not saying that YOU are the one with
> the screwed up opinion, but to believe "The Government" is
> some kind of cohesive unit that conspires against us is a
> mistkae. Refering to the government like "the Government is
> telling the truth" and "The government should have known",
> "the government was conducting", "the government
> intentionally", and "the government is trying to hide the
> fact"...this is misleading and furthers conspiratorial
> paranoia. MAY BE someone IN THE GOVERNMENT...MAY BE...
>
In this case the government is the prosecutors in Denver. Isn't the
case called something like "The People versus Terry Nichols". The US
govt has appointed spokesmen for itself on this case. These are the
people I am referring to. And yes I believe that they are lying, but I
do not believe that they intentionally planned the murder of babies.
Dale
Dale Switzer
Pat McCraughtch wrote:
> As for the stored explosives, there is ample evidence for that. Do
> you remember all the bomb scares they had during the rescue
> operations? Oh, they told us they were "practice" devices, but anyone
> familiar with anything at all knows that practice materials are
> labeled with yellow and/or orange. Do you remember that fake elevator
> hero rescue story? One of the elevator repairmen was talking to some
> feds and he said he overheard a fed talking on a phone. The fed was
> yelling, "I was an architect for 11 years. I'm telling you something
> else went off inside that building down in the corner."
>
This is the part of the story where lives where really cost by the error
of a human. That (I don't remember more than one) fake bomb scare did
cost lives.
In answer to the questions in another set of sub threads. We can't KNOW
for sure that the fake bomb scare cost lives. But I talked to some
firemen that were forced to leave at that time, and they claim that they
left people crying for help and never heard them again.
Now this sort of hear-say is not always accurate and is subject to all
the failures of normal gossip. But those firemen believe that the fake
bomb scare cost the lives of the people that they were trying to rescue.
What seems evident and almost undeniable is that some ATF agents
believed that it was possible that there were live explosives left in
the building. So, as much as you and I want to believe that they surely
didn't store confiscated bombs in the building, it seems that there were
some ATF agents who believed it was possible.
But, if this is true (and I hope it isn't), what should we do. We don't
hang people for innocent errors. It still comes down to, Timothy
McVeigh, Terry Nichols and person or persons unknown, intentionally set
off an explosion which killed civilian men, women, and children;
destroyed downtown Oklahoma City; and caused millions of dollars in
property damage.
What if the government failed to defend itself from this threat which it
should have known about. Well, it should have done so, but hindsight is
20/20. After the mea culpa's what do you do?
Frankly, I, for one, am sick of the search for a scape goat.
E. Faubion
Dale Switzer <dale.s...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>Frankly, I, for one, am sick of the search for a scape goat.
Make that two of us.
ef
Burro
Me too! These folks who need to blame Janet Reno for every little...oh.
Wrong scapegoat. Excuse me.
:) Burro, quite suprised that Mark C. Craig didn't blame ZOG for the
jet's downing.
Sheldon Sheps
patrick.m...@juno.com (Pat McCraughtch) wrote:
>> Dale Switzer's "range of opinions" is interesting, but is it really
>> "good information"? The question remains: did Timothy McVeigh
>> intentionally make and set off the bomb that caused all that damage and
>> killed and injured all those people? The answers have not been
>> adequate.
>
>Witnesses say McVeigh had previously made small ANFO bombs for
>shooting off "out in the desert" and that he didn't have much luck.
>ANFO is a pretty hard substance to detonate all at once, and it's
>stretching credibility to have us believe that anyone could detonate
>multiple barrels all at once and have all of it ignite.
Baloney.Go read the trial transcripts. Go ask the IRA.
> The stuff has
>to go off all at once. Even so, it leaves a heck of a lot of residue.
More baloney. Go to a library and read up on Ammonium Nitrate
explosives. Go read the transcripts.
>Was Timothy McVeigh involved? No doubt. Did he make the bomb that
>went off inside that truck? Hmmmmm.
He certainly had the knowledge to do so.
> Was it for sure an ANFO bomb?
Probably not. But it was based on AN.
>Hmmmmm. Can we call him Lee Harvey McVeigh? Looks that way.
He was a weirdo who decided to kill a lot of people. Oswald was a
weirdo who decided to kill one person and then decided to kill another
person. He failed on the first and succeeded on the second.
Sheldon
Billy Beck
Dale Switzer <dale.s...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>What if the government failed to defend itself from this threat which it
>should have known about. Well, it should have done so, but hindsight is
>20/20. After the mea culpa's what do you do?
Send back the money forced out of peoples' earnings in order to
pay for this wholly fictional and totally non-existent "protection"
which is offered up as the lame rationale for government, and put the
lights out in Washington.
End Incompetence Subsidies.
Stop Paying For It.
Let The Ruination Begin.
Billy
"Serenade To The Big Bird"
http://www.mindspring.com/~wjb3/free/serenade.html
John Moore
In <348d593b....@news.interlog.com> jug...@interlog.com (Sheldon Sheps)
writes:
Well the conversion factor seems to be 12,300 / 4000 = about 3
>Does it matter?
>Here's SOME Q & A.
>
>1. Q: Could you fit 4000 lbs of TNT (or the equivalent in other
>explosives) into the back of a Ryder truck and drive it down the
>street?
>A:Yes. The Ryder truck has a legal limit of 5000 lbs and a design
>limit of 8000 lbs. So if you have 8000 lbs of explosives and a
>conversion rate (overall) to TNT of 50% you've got the equivalent of
>4000 lbs of TNT.
>
Except this is wrong by the conversion factor above which is 3. So it would require
12,000 lbs of ANFO to equal 4000 lbs of TNT. The Conversion reciprocal is not 50%
but 33 1/3%
So how can we get 12,000 pounds of ANFO in a Ryder Truck with a max load of 5,000
to 8,000?
>2. Q: Was the FBI sloppy in saying that the bomb was 4800 lbs of ANFO,
>enough after the crater survey was available and up until just before
>the McVeigh trial?
>A: Yes.
>
>
>3. Q: Are the characteristics of the blast similar to that expected of
>an AN based explosive?
>A: Yes, it was a medium performance high-explosive.
ANFO is not medium performance, it is a relatively slow burning, low powered
explosive.
> The British
>expert Linda Jones described in detail, the signs that indicated that
>the bomb was ammonium nitrate based.
>
>4. Q: Could McVeigh and other have made such a bomb?
>A: Yes, especially considering that we know that McVeigh bought 165
>gallons of nitro methane. AN nitromethane is much more powerful than
>just ANFO.
>
WE have evidence of ammonium nitrate frome the crime scene. Where is the
nitromethane evidence from the crime scene?
>5. Q. How much more powerful than ANFO?
>A: I don't have the numbers but a lot more powerful.
>
Hmmmm......
>
>
>> An FBI agent refused during the trial to say that it was
>>ANFO. Another admitted that a handle from the truck contained
pitting
>>from a high-velocity explosive. ANFO is LOW-velocity. This is stuff
>>that's coming from the gummint, so are they the conspiracy theorists?
>
>There's some confusion in terms. ANFO is a high explosive like C4,
>TNT and other blasting gels.
Wrong, ANFO is relatively low powered and slow burning compared to C4
and TNT. In other words the energy released per unit volume is
considerably smaller for ANFO than TNT or blasting gels.
E. Faubion
wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
>Let The Ruination Begin.
Looks like it's already started in your neck of the woods.
Billy Beck
efau...@oklahoma.net (E. Faubion) wrote:
Oh, yeah? My "neck of the woods" didn't have to shovel the
rubble off 168 dead people, pal.
Figure it out.
E. Faubion
wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
>Oh, yeah? My "neck of the woods" didn't have to shovel the
>rubble off 168 dead people, pal.
Are we safe in assuming you flunked Sensitivity Training?
Dale Switzer
Billy Beck wrote:
>
> efau...@oklahoma.net (E. Faubion) wrote:
>
> >wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
> >
> >>Let The Ruination Begin.
> >
> >Looks like it's already started in your neck of the woods.
>
> rubble off 168 dead people, pal.
>
I hope this man is being flippant and not serious. Otherwise, his logic
is, at least, horrifying.
He says let the ruination begin and then identifies the ruination as the
killing of men, women, and children. Mr "Billy Beck" are you really
encouraging men to go out and kill babies? Please tell me "no".
This neck of the woods has lost many lives to a crackpot who wallowed in
this kind of disgusting muck. While Okies are populist and libertarian
by nature, we don't suffer the depredations of anarchists gladly. We
call them by the correct name, Murderers.
Dale
Dale Switzer
I started this thread with a simple proposition.
People from Oklahoma are not subscribing to the nutso conspiracy
theories, althought they are somewhat concerned that some of the guilty
are going free.
I have been watching the different sides of the debate here. From the
way I can see it, every single one of the people advocating the nutso
theories are not from Oklahoma. Almost everyone of the people who were
challenging the theories were from Oklahoma.
Just as I thought, a simple 10 minute visit to the blast site during the
1st two years after the blast put the whole "the bomb wasn't big enough"
stupidity to rest.
One guy posting here actually said that no other buildings in OKC were
destroyed or made uninhabitable by the blast.
There are no expressions of amazement great enough for this. Hundreds
of thousands of people have been there and seen these destroyed
buildings, are we all in on the conspiracy?
I think the point has been adequately displayed. The nutso conspiracy
theories cannot stand up to the simple common sense of Oklahoma.
Dale
Billy Beck
Dale Switzer <dale.s...@americamail.com> wrote:
>Billy Beck wrote:
>>
>> efau...@oklahoma.net (E. Faubion) wrote:
>>
>> >wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
>> >
>> >>Let The Ruination Begin.
>> >
>> >Looks like it's already started in your neck of the woods.
>>
>> Oh, yeah? My "neck of the woods" didn't have to shovel the
>> rubble off 168 dead people, pal.
>>
>> Figure it out.
>
>I hope this man is being flippant and not serious. Otherwise, his logic
>is, at least, horrifying.
I am *quite* serious. I would never joke about something like
this. Further...
>He says let the ruination begin and then identifies the ruination as the
>killing of men, women, and children. Mr "Billy Beck"...
...yes: that is my name, and...
>...are you really encouraging men to go out and kill babies? Please tell
>me "no".
...no. I am not.
>This neck of the woods has lost many lives to a crackpot who wallowed in
>this kind of disgusting muck. While Okies are populist and libertarian
>by nature...
If I take the evidence presented by "Okies" that I see *here*,
then what you say is flagrant *bullshit*.
>...we don't suffer the depredations of anarchists gladly. We
>call them by the correct name, Murderers.
Yeah, yeah. Well, *I'm* an anarchist, and I am able to draw the
proper distinction between murder and complete principled contempt for
government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition of reeling in
horror from clear thought, are not.
Gary McManus
Billy Beck wrote:
>
> efau...@oklahoma.net (E. Faubion) wrote:
>
> >wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
> >
> >>Let The Ruination Begin.
> >
> >Looks like it's already started in your neck of the woods.
>
> Oh, yeah? My "neck of the woods" didn't have to shovel the
> rubble off 168 dead people, pal.
>
> Figure it out.
Except it was a couple of dickless yankees that did the act.
Gary McManus
Dale Switzer
You're reply was far better than mine, Gary, congrats.
Dale
Nixon
Gary,
I can assure you that the U.S. Gov. had nothing to do
with creating the blast there in Okie City.
What's this newsgroup all about anyway?
Dave
Gary McManus wrote:
> Billy Beck wrote:
> >
> > efau...@oklahoma.net (E. Faubion) wrote:
> >
> > >wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
> > >
> > >>Let The Ruination Begin.
> > >
> > >Looks like it's already started in your neck of the woods.
> >
> > Oh, yeah? My "neck of the woods" didn't have to shovel
> the
> > rubble off 168 dead people, pal.
> >
> > Figure it out.
>
> Except it was a couple of dickless yankees that did the act.
>
> Gary McManus
--
* /s/David E. Nixon n...@ibm.net KE4JIO 77E x 39N
* Optimism. The only attitude that makes any damned
* sense in this world is boundless, unrelenting, pervasive,
* continuous, undiluted, and all-encompassing optimism.
Gary McManus
Billy Beck wrote:
>
> efau...@oklahoma.net (E. Faubion) wrote:
>
> >wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
> >
> >>Oh, yeah? My "neck of the woods" didn't have to shovel the
> >>rubble off 168 dead people, pal.
> >
>
> Age dolt: every person stupid or evil enough to work in a federal
> buliding of any sort should count themselves fortunate that they are
> not summarily rounded up, chained together by their pencil-necks, and
> herded to the most remote and freezing peninsula of the continent in
> burlap nightshirts. I would happily contribute generously to a fund
> established for the purpose of providing them with waste paper and
> salvaged BIC pens, with which they might compose "studies" and write
> "laws" in the darkness to their black little hearts' content, or until
> they shriveled to stick-figure-dead starvation, the alternative
> between the two mattering not the least whit to me.
>
> Fuck 'em, *and* their bloody "sensitivity", and yours, too.
Seems like this fuckstick got up on the wrong side of the black
helicopter today.
Gary McManus
Martin McPhillips
On Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:10:29 -0500, Nixon <n...@ibm.net> wrote:
>Gary,
>
>I can assure you that the U.S. Gov. had nothing to do
>with creating the blast there in Okie City.
See: The Secret Life of Bill Clinton, the unreported stories
by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
Specifically, chapters one through seven.
You won't be assuring anyone of anything after you read
that.
>What's this newsgroup all about anyway?
Which one? You had three in the header.
Billy Beck
E. Faubion
wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
>I've got your asinine "Sensitivity Training", you goddamned New
>Age dolt: every person stupid or evil enough to work in a federal
>buliding of any sort should count themselves fortunate that they are
>not summarily rounded up, chained together by their pencil-necks
(snip)
Your condition will clear up as soon as you stop confusing the
Preparation-H for your toothpaste.
Michael Schneider
In article <348E2E...@ou.edu>, Gary McManus <gmcm...@ou.edu> wrote:
> Billy Beck wrote:
> >
> > efau...@oklahoma.net (E. Faubion) wrote:
> >
> > >wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
> > >
> > >>Oh, yeah? My "neck of the woods" didn't have to shovel the
> > >>rubble off 168 dead people, pal.
> > >
> > >Are we safe in assuming you flunked Sensitivity Training?
> >
> > I've got your asinine "Sensitivity Training", you goddamned New
> > Age dolt: every person stupid or evil enough to work in a federal
> > buliding of any sort should count themselves fortunate that they are
> > not summarily rounded up, chained together by their pencil-necks, and
> > herded to the most remote and freezing peninsula of the continent in
> > burlap nightshirts. I would happily contribute generously to a fund
> > established for the purpose of providing them with waste paper and
> > salvaged BIC pens, with which they might compose "studies" and write
> > "laws" in the darkness to their black little hearts' content, or until
> > they shriveled to stick-figure-dead starvation, the alternative
> > between the two mattering not the least whit to me.
> >
> > Fuck 'em, *and* their bloody "sensitivity", and yours, too.
>
> Seems like this fuckstick got up on the wrong side of the black
> helicopter today.
>
> Gary McManus
*Ahem*: That's the 160th Airborne to you, buster.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Delete ***DELETE*** to reply email.
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Michael Schneider
> efau...@oklahoma.net (E. Faubion) wrote:
>
> >wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
> >
> >>Oh, yeah? My "neck of the woods" didn't have to shovel the
> >>rubble off 168 dead people, pal.
> >
> >Are we safe in assuming you flunked Sensitivity Training?
>
> I've got your asinine "Sensitivity Training", you goddamned New
> Age dolt: every person stupid or evil enough to work in a federal
> buliding of any sort should count themselves fortunate that they are
> not summarily rounded up, chained together by their pencil-necks, and
> herded to the most remote and freezing peninsula of the continent in
My vote goes to Door County, Wisconsin.
It ain't Alaska, but it's close enough for us to watch them suffer.
> burlap nightshirts. I would happily contribute generously to a fund
> established for the purpose of providing them with waste paper and
> salvaged BIC pens, with which they might compose "studies" and write
> "laws" in the darkness to their black little hearts' content, or until
> they shriveled to stick-figure-dead starvation, the alternative
> between the two mattering not the least whit to me.
>
> Fuck 'em, *and* their bloody "sensitivity", and yours, too.
>
>
> Billy
>
> Anthology
> http://www.mindspring.com/~wjb3/free/essays.html
James Buster
In article <348D9D...@americamail.com>,
Dale Switzer <dale.s...@americamail.com> wrote:
>Just as I thought, a simple 10 minute visit to the blast site during the
>1st two years after the blast put the whole "the bomb wasn't big enough"
>stupidity to rest.
Obviously *some* bomb was big enough. Whether it was an ANFO bomb is
another question entirely. If, in fact, the bomb that was claimed to
have made that blast *wasn't* big enough, that in no way disclaims the
existence of a bomb that *was* big enough.
--
Planet Bog -- pools of toxic chemicals bubble under a choking
atomsphere of poisonous gases... but aside from that, it's not
much like Earth.
TarlaStar
wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
> Yeah, yeah. Well, *I'm* an anarchist, and I am able to draw the
>proper distinction between murder and complete principled contempt for
>government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition of reeling in
>horror from clear thought, are not.
Men of good will should be able to live in peace without government.
Tarla
idealistic
anarchist
***Tarla Star***
"If the Pope pushed over Howdy Doody in the woods and there was
no one around but one hand clapping, would Rose Kennedy get
bear shit on her black dress? I think I've made my point."
--Thaddeus N. Gunn
Kim Elmore
In article <348dae42...@news.mindspring.com>,
Billy Beck <wj...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Yeah, yeah. Well, *I'm* an anarchist, and I am able to draw the
>proper distinction between murder and complete principled contempt for
>government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition of reeling in
>horror from clear thought, are not.
>
>
>Billy
"Those who refuse to to support and defend a state have no
claim to protection by that state. Killing an anarchist or a pacifist
should not be defined as 'murder' in a legalistic sense. The offense
against the state, if any, should be 'Using deadly weapons inside city
limits,' or 'Creating a traffic hazard,' or 'Endagnering bystanders,'
or other misdemeanor.
"However, the state may reasonably place a closed season on
these exotic asocial animal whenever they are in danger of becoming
extinct." -- R. A. Heinlein
Well, guys, I think we should open the season. Any idea what
the bag limit is?
Kim Elmore
Kurt Lochner
> >>
> >> efau...@oklahoma.net (E. Faubion) wrote:
> >>
> >> >wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
> >> >
/snip!/
>
> >This neck of the woods has lost many lives to a crackpot who
> >wallowed in this kind of disgusting muck. While Okies are
> >populist and libertarian by nature...
>
><tab>If I take the evidence presented by "Okies" that I see *here*,
> then what you say is flagrant *bullshit*.
Dream on Becky-boy. You don't want to mess with no Okies..
> >...we don't suffer the depredations of anarchists gladly. We
> >call them by the correct name, Murderers.
>
><tab>Yeah, yeah. Well, *I'm* an anarchist, and I am able to draw
> the proper distinction between murder and complete principled
> contempt for government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition
> of reeling in horror from clear thought, are not.
I find it to be self-illusory of you to imply that you are clear-headed,
even as you insult, with your juvenile, vindictive and petty bickerings,
some of the brightest, open-minded folks that I've ever met..
It's clear enough to me that you shouldn't be bothered with the details
concerning the bombing, you'll just keep on believing whomever you're
parroting your words from anyways, so I'd just be throwing pearls before
swine, as it were..
Don't quit your day job, Becky..
Kurt Lochner
Martin McPhillips wrote:
>
> On Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:10:29 -0500, Nixon <n...@ibm.net> wrote:
>
> >Gary,
> >
> >I can assure you that the U.S. Gov. had nothing to do
> >with creating the blast there in Okie City.
I concur..
> See: The Secret Life of Bill Clinton, the unreported stories
> by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
>
> Specifically, chapters one through seven.
>
> You won't be assuring anyone of anything after you read
> that.
AEP's "account" doesn't draw on first-hand experience from OKC..
> >What's this newsgroup all about anyway?
>
> Which one? You had three in the header.
He's referring to alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater, dumbass..
Robert Lindsay
In article <348deaa2...@news.mindspring.com>,
Billy Beck <wj...@mindspring.com> wrote:
[a pretty good rant, I'd give it a 6.5, but not a classic such as
my ex-wife's level, even though I am in one of those federal buildings,
which Billy (BTW my brother is named Billy) despise so much and
I really wouldn't want to program with waste paper and a recycled bic
and I bet net access from artic wastes really sucks like they might
give you a 286 with windows 3.0 and AOL 1.0 and a 300 baud modem or
something and then people would make fun of me cause I was posting from
AOL and it might not even work AT ALL and then I'd like have to do
WORK or something and that would really suck but then I could get mail
from my friends at juno.com who can't email me now because NSSL blocks
all mail from juno.com cause of to much spam which also sucks but... ]
what was I saying?
>Billy
--
Robert Lindsay, Computational Minion, Storm Prediction Center, Norman OK
rob...@zorak.spc.nooa.gov
Oh, God, could it be the weather... T. Amos
#include <standard_disclaimer.h>
Martin McPhillips
On 10 Dec 1997 16:05:00 GMT, elm...@ev.nssl.noaa.gov (Kim Elmore) wrote:
>In article <348dae42...@news.mindspring.com>,
>Billy Beck <wj...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> Yeah, yeah. Well, *I'm* an anarchist, and I am able to draw the
>>proper distinction between murder and complete principled contempt for
>>government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition of reeling in
>>horror from clear thought, are not.
>>
>>Billy
>
> "Those who refuse to to support and defend a state have no
>claim to protection by that state. Killing an anarchist or a pacifist
>should not be defined as 'murder' in a legalistic sense. The offense
>against the state, if any, should be 'Using deadly weapons inside city
>limits,' or 'Creating a traffic hazard,' or 'Endagnering bystanders,'
>or other misdemeanor.
>
> "However, the state may reasonably place a closed season on
>these exotic asocial animal whenever they are in danger of becoming
>extinct." -- R. A. Heinlein
>
> Well, guys, I think we should open the season. Any idea what
>the bag limit is?
Well, we are not living in a Heinlein novel, or a Heinlein world,
and it strikes me as though you've just gone from quoting
a writer who suggests killing someone for their political beliefs to
making that same suggestion yourself.
You should be more careful. Being clever doesn't make your
suggestion any less of a modestly veiled threat.
Martin McPhillips
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:27:31 -0600, Kurt Lochner <Cap...@worldnet.tta.net> wrote:
>Martin McPhillips wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:10:29 -0500, Nixon <n...@ibm.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Gary,
>> >
>> >I can assure you that the U.S. Gov. had nothing to do
>> >with creating the blast there in Okie City.
>
>I concur..
>
>> See: The Secret Life of Bill Clinton, the unreported stories
>> by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
>>
>> Specifically, chapters one through seven.
>>
>> You won't be assuring anyone of anything after you read
>> that.
>
>AEP's "account" doesn't draw on first-hand experience from OKC..
No? What do you call the accounts of witnesses who saw McVeigh
and saw him with at least four or five others? How about his interview
with the "patriarch" of Elohim City? Or his interview with Andreas Strassmeir?
Or his closeness with the surviving families who sought to find the
truth?
Or his establishment of the fact that Carol Howe was working
for the BATF, and that she had reported that a group working out
of Elohim City was planning to bomb federal buildings?
Or his establishment of the fact that the FBI, in its investigation,
deliberately ignored eyewitness testimony, and deliberately stayed
away from Strassmeir and his cohorts?
>> >What's this newsgroup all about anyway?
>>
>> Which one? You had three in the header.
>
>He's referring to alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater, dumbass..
Really, you can read his mind? Seem like you can't
even read the printed word, let alone someone's mind, dumbass.
Michael OKC
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 03:19:06 GMT, wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
>
>efau...@oklahoma.net (E. Faubion) wrote:
>
>>wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
>>
>>>Oh, yeah? My "neck of the woods" didn't have to shovel the
>>>rubble off 168 dead people, pal.
>>
>>Are we safe in assuming you flunked Sensitivity Training?
>
> I've got your asinine "Sensitivity Training", you goddamned New
>Age dolt: every person stupid or evil enough to work in a federal
>buliding of any sort should count themselves fortunate that they are
>not summarily rounded up, chained together by their pencil-necks, and
>herded to the most remote and freezing peninsula of the continent in
>burlap nightshirts. I would happily contribute generously to a fund
>established for the purpose of providing them with waste paper and
>salvaged BIC pens, with which they might compose "studies" and write
>"laws" in the darkness to their black little hearts' content, or until
>they shriveled to stick-figure-dead starvation, the alternative
>between the two mattering not the least whit to me.
>
> Fuck 'em, *and* their bloody "sensitivity", and yours, too.
>
>
>Billy
Since you have such a problem with government, why not move to a nice, lawless
third-world country? I'm sure you would be quite free to spout your anarchist
rhetoric there... :)
Michael OKC
Federal Employee and damn proud of it!
Dale Switzer
In article <66m9dv$r...@snews1.zippo.com>, !!!bmy...@ionet.net says...
> wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
>
>
> > Yeah, yeah. Well, *I'm* an anarchist, and I am able to draw the
> >proper distinction between murder and complete principled contempt for
> >government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition of reeling in
> >horror from clear thought, are not.
>
>
I'm not sure what distinction Mr Beck draws between murder and
"principled contempt". If that distinction makes a difference between
murdering a baby because he cries too loud and murdering a baby because
he is in a building owned by someone you hate then the distinction is not
only worthless by despicable.
Yes, Tarla, men of good will not only should but easily could live in
peace without government. The problem is that there are many men of not
so good will. Men like Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols and other person or
persons unknown (to me).
Dale
Gary McManus
Billy Beck wrote:
>
> Yeah, yeah. Well, *I'm* an anarchist, and I am able to draw the
> proper distinction between murder and complete principled contempt for
> government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition of reeling in
> horror from clear thought, are not.
>
Have you met David Deming?
Timothy Melton
In article <348ec6ce...@news.nyct.net>,
Well, I'd say you've missed the point entirely. Re-read the quote.
It says "have no claim" and "should not be defined". It's an opinion.
And, on the surface a quite valid one. Why should one be afforded
protection from a state one does not support. Should I expect a bobby
on my doorstop when I dial 911 complaining of an imminent intruder?
It is a *very* interesting proposal. Whether in a Heinlein novel or
in our world.
>You should be more careful. Being clever doesn't make your
>suggestion any less of a modestly veiled threat.
You should learn to read *and* to comprehend. Ever hear of a concept
called sarcasm?
MHO,
Tim
--
Tim Melton t...@questconsult.com
Quest Consultants Inc. http://www.questconsult.com/~tam
P.O. Box 721387 (405) 329-7475
Norman, OK 73070-8069 Fax: (405) 329-7734
Michael Schneider
In article <348ec6ce...@news.nyct.net>, cay...@nyct.net (Martin
McPhillips) wrote:
> On 10 Dec 1997 16:05:00 GMT, elm...@ev.nssl.noaa.gov (Kim Elmore) wrote:
>
> >In article <348dae42...@news.mindspring.com>,
> >Billy Beck <wj...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Yeah, yeah. Well, *I'm* an anarchist, and I am able to draw the
> >>proper distinction between murder and complete principled contempt for
> >>government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition of reeling in
> >>horror from clear thought, are not.
> >>
> >>Billy
> >
> > "Those who refuse to to support and defend a state have no
> >claim to protection by that state. Killing an anarchist or a pacifist
> >should not be defined as 'murder' in a legalistic sense. The offense
> >against the state, if any, should be 'Using deadly weapons inside city
> >limits,' or 'Creating a traffic hazard,' or 'Endagnering bystanders,'
> >or other misdemeanor.
> >
> > "However, the state may reasonably place a closed season on
> >these exotic asocial animal whenever they are in danger of becoming
> >extinct." -- R. A. Heinlein
This quotation *appears* to be from "Starship Troopers", Heinlein's
worst book in terms of rational philosophy. His later-written "The Moon is
a Harsh Mistress" shows his transformation from the quasi-fascist thinking
above to the antithesis: a reasoned anarcho-capitalist position.
> > Well, guys, I think we should open the season. Any idea what
> >the bag limit is?
>
> Well, we are not living in a Heinlein novel, or a Heinlein world,
Mmm... We probably won't get the happy ending.
> and it strikes me as though you've just gone from quoting
> a writer who suggests killing someone for their political beliefs to
> making that same suggestion yourself.
>
> You should be more careful. Being clever doesn't make your
> suggestion any less of a modestly veiled threat.
Timothy Melton
In article <66mg7b$q...@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net>,
Kurt Lochner <Cap...@worldnet.tta.net> wrote:
>Billy Beck wrote:
>><tab>Yeah, yeah. Well, *I'm* an anarchist, and I am able to draw
>> the proper distinction between murder and complete principled
>> contempt for government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition
>> of reeling in horror from clear thought, are not.
Omagosh. I'm going to have to bring up a point of order in Billy
Boy's defence. Actually being an anarchist has nothing to do with
rampant murder, as many seem to believe. They simply feel that the
best form of government is no government. Billy here seems to
actually have a grasp on that concept. Of course, We The People have
an established government. If we decide We The People no longer want
a government or want a different government, We The People have the
means to change things. If the system fails for We The People, teh We
have the means through the second amendment to enforce our will on an
oppressive regime. But only We The People have the right to use those
means. Billy boy here is NOT We The People. He also seems to have a
strange definition of "clear thought". But he's got the basics of
anarchy down, it would seem.
>I find it to be self-illusory of you to imply that you are clear-headed,
>even as you insult, with your juvenile, vindictive and petty bickerings,
>some of the brightest, open-minded folks that I've ever met..
I would hardly call Billy boy's postings insulting. From the rabidity
of he post, I am no more insulted by him than i would be by a barking
dog.
>It's clear enough to me that you shouldn't be bothered with the details
>concerning the bombing, you'll just keep on believing whomever you're
>parroting your words from anyways, so I'd just be throwing pearls before
>swine, as it were..
Bingo. It took me a while to get it through my head. Some people
KNOW what happened despite any evidence to the contrary. They cannot
be swayed by reason. They latch onto their holy writ and ignore all
others. You know you're really getting to them when they start to
rant ;-) Somehow their single piece of information is made more
valuable and valid the louder it is shouted ;-)
Michael Schneider
Subic Bay, Phillipines.
Been there, done that, *great* trip. Can't wait to go back.
> Michael OKC
> Federal Employee and damn proud of it!
You're a leech attached to other people's wallets.
You deserve a set of pliars around your squirmy, slimy neck.
Craig Shields
TarlaStar wrote:
> wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
>
> > Yeah, yeah. Well, *I'm* an anarchist, and I am able to draw
> the
> >proper distinction between murder and complete principled contempt
> for
> >government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition of reeling in
> >horror from clear thought, are not.
>
> Men of good will should be able to live in peace without government.
>
> Tarla
> idealistic
> anarchist
That is a noble thought. Alas, we live not in a noble world.
-ex-British Ambassador to the US (forgot his name)
--
Cheers...Craig
--------
"But, Masters, remember that I am an ass."
-Much Ado About Nothing (William Shakespeare)
--------
"If ignorance is bliss, you must be orgasmic"
--------
Gary McManus
Michael Schneider wrote:
>
> Subic Bay, Phillipines.
>
> Been there, done that, *great* trip. Can't wait to go back.
>
> > Michael OKC
> > Federal Employee and damn proud of it!
>
> You're a leech attached to other people's wallets.
>
> You deserve a set of pliars around your squirmy, slimy neck.
What is it with you paranoid types. WE AREN'T INTERESTED IN YOUR SICK
PERVERTED SEX LIVES!!!
Gary McManus
Billy Beck
mdb...@ionet.net (Michael OKC) wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 03:19:06 GMT, wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
>
>>
>>efau...@oklahoma.net (E. Faubion) wrote:
>>>Are we safe in assuming you flunked Sensitivity Training?
>>
>> I've got your asinine "Sensitivity Training", you goddamned New
>>Age dolt: every person stupid or evil enough to work in a federal
>>buliding of any sort should count themselves fortunate that they are
>>not summarily rounded up, chained together by their pencil-necks, and
>>herded to the most remote and freezing peninsula of the continent in
>>burlap nightshirts. I would happily contribute generously to a fund
>>established for the purpose of providing them with waste paper and
>>salvaged BIC pens, with which they might compose "studies" and write
>>"laws" in the darkness to their black little hearts' content, or until
>>they shriveled to stick-figure-dead starvation, the alternative
>>between the two mattering not the least whit to me.
>>
>> Fuck 'em, *and* their bloody "sensitivity", and yours, too.
>Since you have such a problem with government, why not move to a nice, lawless
>third-world country? I'm sure you would be quite free to spout your anarchist
>rhetoric there... :)
I didn't take that "love it or leave it" bullshit from Nixon &
Agnew, and I'm not taking it from *you*.
>Michael OKC
>Federal Employee and damn proud of it!
Fuck you, vampire.
Get a real job.
Billy
Billy Beck
t...@quest1.questconsult.com (Timothy Melton) wrote:
>>Billy Beck wrote:
>
>>><tab>Yeah, yeah. Well, *I'm* an anarchist, and I am able to draw
>>> the proper distinction between murder and complete principled
>>> contempt for government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition
>>> of reeling in horror from clear thought, are not.
>
>Omagosh. I'm going to have to bring up a point of order in Billy
>Boy's defence. Actually being an anarchist has nothing to do with
>rampant murder, as many seem to believe.
That distinction, however, doesn't serve their purpose of
inciting rampant terror at the mere mention of the word.
In any case...
>They simply feel that the
>best form of government is no government. Billy here seems to
>actually have a grasp on that concept. Of course, We The People have
>an established government.
Fine. You, The People, have no moral authority to assert its
power over *my* life. Here's an illustration of the principle: your
argument would have made a fine defense of slavery in the first half
of the last century. "We The People have established a polity which
holds that black people have no right to their own lives."
You, The People, can do anything you bloody please as long as you
don't coerce *me* with your government.
*That* is the principle and "clear thought" which you have no way
around.
Billy
Gary McManus
Billy Beck wrote:
> >Federal Employee and damn proud of it!
>
> Fuck you, vampire.
Again with the weird sex stuff. What's next, screwing cows in black
helicopters?
Gary McManus
Tim Starr
In article <mike1-10129...@192-144.dynamic.visi.com>,
Michael Schneider <mike1@***DELETE***visi.com> wrote:
>In article <348ec6ce...@news.nyct.net>, cay...@nyct.net (Martin
>McPhillips) wrote:
>
>> On 10 Dec 1997 16:05:00 GMT, elm...@ev.nssl.noaa.gov (Kim Elmore) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <348dae42...@news.mindspring.com>,
>> >Billy Beck <wj...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>proper distinction between murder and complete principled contempt for
>> >>government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition of reeling in
>> >>horror from clear thought, are not.
>> >>
>> >
>> > "Those who refuse to to support and defend a state have no
>> >claim to protection by that state. Killing an anarchist or a pacifist
>> >should not be defined as 'murder' in a legalistic sense. The offense
>> >against the state, if any, should be 'Using deadly weapons inside city
>> >limits,' or 'Creating a traffic hazard,' or 'Endagnering bystanders,'
>> >or other misdemeanor.
>> >
>> > "However, the state may reasonably place a closed season on
>> >these exotic asocial animal whenever they are in danger of becoming
>> >extinct." -- R. A. Heinlein
>
>
> This quotation *appears* to be from "Starship Troopers", Heinlein's
>worst book in terms of rational philosophy. His later-written "The Moon is
>a Harsh Mistress" shows his transformation from the quasi-fascist thinking
>above to the antithesis: a reasoned anarcho-capitalist position.
Besides which, I know plenty of anarchists who'd be perfectly happy to take
the State up on it if it ever offered to let them not have to pay taxes to it
or obey its laws in exchange for not being part of its protection racket.
They'd even be willing to obey the State's laws against violent crimes against
persons & property crimes. Just so long as they were allowed to make their
own security arrangements.
I bet Heinlein might've even been willing to go along with that deal when
he wrote STARSHIP TROOPERS. He certainly would've been willing to go along
with it by the time he wrote THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS.
How 'bout you, Martin? Would you go along with that deal?
"If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police,
the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the
government--and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws."
--Edward Abbey (1927-1989), _Abbey's Road,_ p.39_(Plume, 1979)
Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! Think Universally, Act Selfishly
Assistant Editor: Freedom Network News, the newsletter of The International
Society for Individual Liberty (ISIL), http://www.isil.org/
Personal home page: http://www.creative.net/~star/timstarr.htm
Liberty is the Best Policy - tims...@netcom.com
Mark Anderson
In article dale.s...@americamail.com says...
> Just as I thought, a simple 10 minute visit to the blast site during the
> 1st two years after the blast put the whole "the bomb wasn't big enough"
> stupidity to rest.
Listen to the Water Board tape of the blast from across the street. The
cutter charges can be clearly heard several seconds before the main
blast. You don't have to be from Oklahoma to hear it either.
Gary McManus
You can also hear a bunch of voices telling people to kill John Lennon.
It's eerie, I'm telling you.
Gary McManus
BGR
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 03:19:06 GMT, wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) was
caught saying:
> Fuck 'em, *and* their bloody "sensitivity", and yours, too.
>
Forget to pay your parking tickets Billy? Maybe child-support has got
you down. I guess pending someone would marry your sorry ass. God
forbid reproduce with you.
Ben Randle
http://www.galstar.com/~firetek
BGR
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:03:32 GMT, !!!bmy...@ionet.net (TarlaStar) was
caught saying:
>wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
>
>
>> Yeah, yeah. Well, *I'm* an anarchist, and I am able to draw the
>>proper distinction between murder and complete principled contempt for
>>government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition of reeling in
>>horror from clear thought, are not.
>
>Men of good will should be able to live in peace without government.
>
>
Yea I had that same idealogy in high school too. There's one thing
missing "Men of good will"
Ben Randle
http://www.galstar.com/~firetek
Sheldon Sheps
mike1@***DELETE***visi.com (Michael Schneider) wrote:
>In article <348fbda3...@snews.zippo.com>, Michael OKC wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 03:19:06 GMT, wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >efau...@oklahoma.net (E. Faubion) wrote:
>> >
>> >>wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>Oh, yeah? My "neck of the woods" didn't have to shovel the
>> >>>rubble off 168 dead people, pal.
>> >>
>> >>Are we safe in assuming you flunked Sensitivity Training?
>> >
>> > I've got your asinine "Sensitivity Training", you goddamned New
>> >Age dolt: every person stupid or evil enough to work in a federal
>> >buliding of any sort should count themselves fortunate that they are
>> >not summarily rounded up, chained together by their pencil-necks, and
>> >herded to the most remote and freezing peninsula of the continent in
>> >burlap nightshirts. I would happily contribute generously to a fund
>> >established for the purpose of providing them with waste paper and
>> >salvaged BIC pens, with which they might compose "studies" and write
>> >"laws" in the darkness to their black little hearts' content, or until
>> >they shriveled to stick-figure-dead starvation, the alternative
>> >between the two mattering not the least whit to me.
>> >
>> > Fuck 'em, *and* their bloody "sensitivity", and yours, too.
>> >
>> >
>> >Billy
>>
>> Since you have such a problem with government, why not move to a nice, lawless
>> third-world country? I'm sure you would be quite free to spout your anarchist
>> rhetoric there... :)
>
>
No need to. Billy is a third-world country all by himself.
Sheldon
>
> Subic Bay, Phillipines.
>
> Been there, done that, *great* trip. Can't wait to go back.
>
>
>
>> Michael OKC
>> Federal Employee and damn proud of it!
>
>
>
> You're a leech attached to other people's wallets.
>
> You deserve a set of pliars around your squirmy, slimy neck.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Delete ***DELETE*** to reply email.
>
>Welcome to Rancho Runnamukka: http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/
>A Military Action: http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
--
Sheldon Sheps
Militia - History and Law FAQ
http://www.militia-watchdog.org/faq1.htm
You don't have to agree with what's in it.
But it sure explains a lot of the issues.
I am researching OKC bombS
theories and welcome any new material.
*********************************************
Michael Schneider
In article <MPG.ef8524d9...@news.tezcat.com>, m...@tezcat.com
(Mark Anderson) wrote:
> In article dale.s...@americamail.com says...
>
> > Just as I thought, a simple 10 minute visit to the blast site during the
> > 1st two years after the blast put the whole "the bomb wasn't big enough"
> > stupidity to rest.
Uh-huh.
And some steel-reinforced concrete structures withstood the Hiroshima
nuclear blast.
A gigantic spray pattern of loose debris tells you nothing.
> Listen to the Water Board tape of the blast from across the street. The
> cutter charges can be clearly heard several seconds before the main
> blast. You don't have to be from Oklahoma to hear it either.
Michael Schneider
In article <348F70...@ou.edu>, Gary McManus <gmcm...@ou.edu> wrote:
> Mark Anderson wrote:
> >
> > In article dale.s...@americamail.com says...
> >
> > > Just as I thought, a simple 10 minute visit to the blast site during the
> > > 1st two years after the blast put the whole "the bomb wasn't big enough"
> > > stupidity to rest.
> >
> > Listen to the Water Board tape of the blast from across the street. The
> > cutter charges can be clearly heard several seconds before the main
> > blast. You don't have to be from Oklahoma to hear it either.
>
> You can also hear a bunch of voices telling people to kill John Lennon.
> It's eerie, I'm telling you.
>
> Gary McManus
You're a lightweight, I'm telling you.
Michael Schneider
> wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
>
>
> > Yeah, yeah. Well, *I'm* an anarchist, and I am able to draw the
> >proper distinction between murder and complete principled contempt for
> >government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition of reeling in
> >horror from clear thought, are not.
>
> Men of good will should be able to live in peace without government.
"Should"? They *do*. I've been there.
> Tarla
> idealistic
> anarchist
> ***Tarla Star***
> "If the Pope pushed over Howdy Doody in the woods and there was
> no one around but one hand clapping, would Rose Kennedy get
> bear shit on her black dress? I think I've made my point."
> --Thaddeus N. Gunn
Kurt Lochner
Martin McPhillips wrote:
>
> Kurt Lochner wrote:
>
> >Martin McPhillips wrote:
> >>
> >> Nixon <n...@ibm.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Gary,
> >> >
> >> >I can assure you that the U.S. Gov. had nothing to do
> >> >with creating the blast there in Okie City.
> >
> >I concur..
> >
> >> See: The Secret Life of Bill Clinton, the unreported stories
> >> by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
> >>
> >> Specifically, chapters one through seven.
> >>
> >> You won't be assuring anyone of anything after you read
> >> that.
> >
> >AEP's "account" doesn't draw on first-hand experience from OKC..
>
> No? What do you call the accounts of witnesses who saw McVeigh
> and saw him with at least four or five others?
Accurate.. And they have an iron-clad alibi, despite some 2,200
people seeing them with McVeigh that morning.
> How about his interview with the "patriarch" of Elohim City?
> Or his interview with Andreas Strassmeir?
Millar? He was on the FBI's payroll..
> Or his closeness with the surviving families who sought to
> find the truth?
In my opinion, you don't really want to know the truth..
And neither does Ambrose-Pierce.
> Or his establishment of the fact that Carol Howe was working
> for the BATF, and that she had reported that a group working out
> of Elohim City was planning to bomb federal buildings?
So, Carol, Oklahoma's answer to Tonya Harding, was working for
the BATF, and Millar was working for the FBI. Big deal..
Neither one of them provided any useful answers afterwards,
yet another fact that Ambrose-Pierce ignores, deliberately..
> Or his establishment of the fact that the FBI, in its investigation,
> deliberately ignored eyewitness testimony, and deliberately stayed
> away from Strassmeir and his cohorts?
AEP didn't "establish" anything that wasn't already known as
a fact around here in Oklahoma. Guess you had to be here..
> >> >What's this newsgroup all about anyway?
> >>
> >> Which one? You had three in the header.
> >
> >He's referring to alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater, dumbass..
>
> Really, you can read his mind? Seem like you can't
> even read the printed word, let alone someone's mind, dumbass.
Really? So how come you can't seem to draw any useful inferences
outta what you keep repeating? Want to tell us about it sometime?
Kurt Lochner
Timothy Melton wrote:
>
> Kurt Lochner wrote:
> >
> >Billy Beck wrote:
>
> >> the proper distinction between murder and complete principled
> >> contempt for government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition
> >> of reeling in horror from clear thought, are not.
>
> Billy Boy's defence.
Okay, but try not to take him too seriously.. /&^)
> Actually being an anarchist has nothing to do with
> rampant murder, as many seem to believe. They simply feel that the
> best form of government is no government. Billy here seems to
> actually have a grasp on that concept. Of course, We The People have
> an established government. If we decide We The People no longer want
> a government or want a different government, We The People have the
> means to change things. If the system fails for We The People, teh We
> have the means through the second amendment to enforce our will on an
> oppressive regime. But only We The People have the right to use those
> means. Billy boy here is NOT We The People. He also seems to have a
> strange definition of "clear thought". But he's got the basics of
> anarchy down, it would seem.
Well, you know Billy hates people imposing their will on his mundane
mannerisms, even if it is for his own good.. So I said..
> >I find it to be self-illusory of you to imply that you are clear-headed,
> >even as you insult, with your juvenile, vindictive and petty bickerings,
> >some of the brightest, open-minded folks that I've ever met..
>
> I would hardly call Billy boy's postings insulting.
You're right, that's way too generous..
> From the rabidity of he post, I am no more insulted by him than i
> would be by a barking dog.
Yup, he's a yapping chihuahua..
> >It's clear enough to me that you shouldn't be bothered with the details
> >concerning the bombing, you'll just keep on believing whomever you're
> >parroting your words from anyways, so I'd just be throwing pearls before
> >swine, as it were..
>
> Bingo. It took me a while to get it through my head.
I have days like that..
> Some people KNOW what happened despite any evidence to the contrary.
Yup, and it seems to be directly proportional to the distance
from the blast, as well as the time elapsed..
> They cannot be swayed by reason.
> They latch onto their holy writ and ignore all others.
Fsck'em..
> You know you're really getting to them when they start to
> rant ;-) Somehow their single piece of information is made more
> valuable and valid the louder it is shouted ;-)
Yeah, I know.. It's even less credible than "eye-witness" testimony,
thanks to his type of inane rantings of conspirhetoric..
Fsck 'em, that's what I say. Thanks for nothing Becky..
Timothy Melton
In article <348f0da2...@news.mindspring.com>,
Billy Beck <wj...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Fine. You, The People, have no moral authority to assert its
>power over *my* life. Here's an illustration of the principle: your
>argument would have made a fine defense of slavery in the first half
>of the last century. "We The People have established a polity which
>holds that black people have no right to their own lives."
>
> You, The People, can do anything you bloody please as long as you
>don't coerce *me* with your government.
This statement is akin to saying "I'm going to live in your house, but
you cannot assert any form of control or law on *me*.
> *That* is the principle and "clear thought" which you have no way
>around.
If that is your "clear thought", then I'd have to say that, to me, it
appears to be neither "clear" nor a particularly wee-considered
thought. The "love it or leave it" is, clearly, improper. "Love it
or work to change it *or* leave it" is a bit more proper I'd say.
Billy, did your dad ever tell you: "As long as you live under my roof
you follow my rules!". Scale it up. Same situation, like it or not.
Robert Lindsay
In article <349020dd...@204.251.80.3>,
Jerry Morgan <jmo...@galstar.com> wrote:
>Gary McManus <gmcm...@ou.edu> wrote:
>
>>Billy Beck wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah, yeah. Well, *I'm* an anarchist, and I am able to draw the
>>> proper distinction between murder and complete principled contempt for
>>> government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition of reeling in
>>> horror from clear thought, are not.
>>>
>>
>
>attitude adjustment.
More like the Demster on PCP... Actually I think he thrives on being replied
to, sort of trolling at a more desperate level. The Demster has been sulking
ever since nobody would buy his Flt 800 conspiracy.
>Don't dismiss him so suddenly though, as it is the "holiday season"
>and he could be good for a few laughs.
Dammit, he didn't flame MY reply! I'M a VAMPIRE LEECH too! I should
expectthe standard barrage of insults, especially since I work at the
weather service where the "weather control devices" ** are.
>After all Carl M. Starr has disappeared again, probably back on his
>medication, so it's time for another to surface and take his place as
>the village idiot here in ok.general.
Conspiracy theorys are the closest thing to perpetual motion machines.
If you refute them with fact they deny your fact,
if you descredit them, you are part of the coverup,
if you do nothing, your part of the "silent majority" that agrees with them.
** Note to Billy Beck go look up the word 'SATIRE' in the dictionary.
We do NOT have any weather control devices, because we can barely
PREDICT the weather and don't fully understand how it works. Fnord.
--
Robert Lindsay, Computational Minion, Storm Prediction Center, Norman OK
rob...@zorak.spc.nooa.gov
Oh, God, could it be the weather... T. Amos
#include <standard_disclaimer.h>
Michael OKC
>> Michael OKC
>> Federal Employee and damn proud of it!
>
>
>
> You're a leech attached to other people's wallets.
>
> You deserve a set of pliars around your squirmy, slimy neck.
Thanks for you opinion, Mike! I've filed it appropriately (#13) for future
reference!
Michael OKC
Michael OKC
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:51:45 GMT, wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
>
>t...@quest1.questconsult.com (Timothy Melton) wrote:
>
>>>Billy Beck wrote:
>>
>>>><tab>Yeah, yeah. Well, *I'm* an anarchist, and I am able to draw
>>>> the proper distinction between murder and complete principled
>>>> contempt for government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition
>>>> of reeling in horror from clear thought, are not.
>>
>>Omagosh. I'm going to have to bring up a point of order in Billy
>>Boy's defence. Actually being an anarchist has nothing to do with
>>rampant murder, as many seem to believe.
>
> That distinction, however, doesn't serve their purpose of
>inciting rampant terror at the mere mention of the word.
>
> In any case...
>
>>They simply feel that the
>>best form of government is no government. Billy here seems to
>>actually have a grasp on that concept. Of course, We The People have
>>an established government.
>
> Fine. You, The People, have no moral authority to assert its
>power over *my* life. Here's an illustration of the principle: your
>argument would have made a fine defense of slavery in the first half
>of the last century. "We The People have established a polity which
>holds that black people have no right to their own lives."
We The People corrected the slavery problem. It took going to war against
people like you, Billy, but we corrected the problem.
> You, The People, can do anything you bloody please as long as you
>don't coerce *me* with your government.
Again, YOU are quite welcome to find another place to live where the
government or lack of it is more suitable to your tastes. This country
happens to have a government, and if you're opposed to living under its
"tyranny" then you should pack your things and leave.
Michael OKC
Michael OKC
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:51:42 GMT, wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
>
>mdb...@ionet.net (Michael OKC) wrote:
>
>>Michael OKC
>>Federal Employee and damn proud of it!
>
> Fuck you, vampire.
>
> Get a real job.
>
>
>Billy
Careful, Billy, your compassion and intelligence are showing...
Michael OKC
BTW, you wouldn't happen to be a member of a labor union would you?
Michael OKC
>> Men of good will should be able to live in peace without government.
>
>
> "Should"? They *do*. I've been there.
I've seen enough of your "good will", Mike, to know that you're lying your
butt off with that last statement. You have NO good will toward anyone unless
they tow your line...
Michael OKC
Bill Kasper
The Alphabits, while floating in mike1@***DELETE***visi.com (Michael
Schneider) 's breakfast bowl, spelled:
=In article <348fbda3...@snews.zippo.com>, Michael OKC wrote:
<snip>
=
=> Michael OKC
=> Federal Employee and damn proud of it!
=
=
=
= You're a leech attached to other people's wallets.
=
= You deserve a set of pliars around your squirmy, slimy neck.
=
Don't squeeze until he makes restitution for all his years of
parasitism...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Kasper, Purveyor of Fine Opinions on Various Topics.
Author, Consultant, Cowboy.
Treasonous government officials should have their
bronzed, severed heads displayed on poles in D.C.
as a promise of justice to all future generations.
misc.activism.militia - Piping hot statists served fresh daily!
Bill Kasper
The Alphabits, while floating in !!!bmy...@ionet.net (TarlaStar) 's
breakfast bowl, spelled:
=wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
=
=
=> Yeah, yeah. Well, *I'm* an anarchist, and I am able to draw the
=>proper distinction between murder and complete principled contempt for
=>government, even if you, in the prevailing tradition of reeling in
=>horror from clear thought, are not.
=
=Men of good will should be able to live in peace without government.
Men of good will, by definition, don't govern, they protect and lead...
Craig Shields
Michael OKC wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:51:42 GMT, wj...@mindspring.com (Billy Beck)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >mdb...@ionet.net (Michael OKC) wrote:
> >
> >>Michael OKC
> >>Federal Employee and damn proud of it!
> >
> > Fuck you, vampire.
> >
> > Get a real job.
> >
> >
> >Billy
>
> Careful, Billy, your compassion and intelligence are showing...
>
> Michael OKC
>
> BTW, you wouldn't happen to be a member of a labor union would you?
Am I the only one amused by Billy's ISP - "Mindspring"? I mean, that
boy's mind has popped a few springs already.
Oh, well. Let the angry Billy tirade begin...
Gary McManus
Billy Beck wrote:
>
>
> Nothing changes, that is, unless you're changing the referent
> *principle* along the way as you "scale it up", which would be
> dishonest.
>
> And, you're not my dad, so you don't get to pull that shit on me.
Ah, now we get to the crux of the attitude. Apparently, Billy's dad
used
the "pull that shit" on him. I don't know what kind of perverted act
this "pulling shit" is, but it's probably best left in one of those
alt.sex.* newsgroups.
Gary McManus
John Newman
On 10 Dec 1997 10:43:31 -0600, rob...@zorak.spc.noaa.gov (Robert
Lindsay) wrote:
>
>what was I saying?
>
>
Have you been taking lessons from E.Smith?
John Newman
Billy Beck
t...@quest1.questconsult.com (Timothy Melton) wrote:
>Billy Beck <wj...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> Fine. You, The People, have no moral authority to assert its
>>power over *my* life. Here's an illustration of the principle: your
>>argument would have made a fine defense of slavery in the first half
>>of the last century. "We The People have established a polity which
>>holds that black people have no right to their own lives."
>>
>> You, The People, can do anything you bloody please as long as you
>>don't coerce *me* with your government.
>
>This statement is akin to saying "I'm going to live in your house, but
>you cannot assert any form of control or law on *me*.
Nonsense. It's not your "house". You have no more authority
premised on ownership of the country than *I* do.
>> *That* is the principle and "clear thought" which you have no way
>>around.
>
>If that is your "clear thought", then I'd have to say that, to me, it
>appears to be neither "clear" nor a particularly wee-considered
>thought. The "love it or leave it" is, clearly, improper. "Love it
>or work to change it *or* leave it" is a bit more proper I'd say.
More rubbish. Who do you think you *are*? You're simply shaving
the presumptive goal of your assertion of authority and power. The
fact of the matter is that my life, as well every value which I seek
in order to sustain it, is *mine*. It is not yours to command. I
don't owe you anything beyond the promise to leave to the conduct of
your affairs without my interference. That's it, but it's a
bi-lateral consideration: you owe *me* the same thing. Now, be
*honest* about it, Melton, and admit the principles: you can do
anything you want to do, but you have no right to coerce my agreement,
endorsement, or support. Unless you are completely without regard for
principle - and prefer to make it up as you go along - then you
certainly understand that, for instance, you have no morally
defensible right to force the neighbors on the street where you live
into so much helping you rake the leaves out of your yard. If you
don't have *that* much of a right to the lives of others, then how do
you derive the right to force others into the support of your
government?
You *don't*. Nothing changes when you...
>Scale it up.
Nothing changes, that is, unless you're changing the referent
*principle* along the way as you "scale it up", which would be
dishonest.
And, you're not my dad, so you don't get to pull that shit on me.
Billy
Bill Kasper
The Alphabits, while floating in mdb...@ionet.net (Michael OKC) 's
breakfast bowl, spelled:
=On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:30:40 -0600, mike1@***DELETE***visi.com (Michael
=Schneider) wrote:
=
=>> Men of good will should be able to live in peace without government.
=>
=>
=> "Should"? They *do*. I've been there.
=
=I've seen enough of your "good will", Mike, to know that you're lying your
=butt off with that last statement. You have NO good will toward anyone
unless
=they tow your line...
=
Instead of "your line", you should have said "their own weight".
This change would have created a correct statement, instead of a
stupid, emotional, lying one.
Michael Schneider
In article <34923dfd...@snews.zippo.com>, Michael OKC wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:30:40 -0600, mike1@***DELETE***visi.com (Michael
> Schneider) wrote:
>
> >> Men of good will should be able to live in peace without government.
> >
> >
> > "Should"? They *do*. I've been there.
>
> I've seen enough of your "good will", Mike,....
Get this, you fucking lame geek: I'd never vote to stick a gun up
*your* ass to make you cough left to the IRS to pay my salary.
> to know that you're lying your butt off with that last statement.
> You have NO good will toward anyone unless they tow your line...
Well of course: civilized men get the nod.
Ah, and that's "toe the line", ya darn goof.
Michael Schneider
In article <881855287...@dejanews.com>, ted....@wilcom.com wrote:
> Subic Bay? Oh YEAH, theres a fucking wonderland.
What's wrong with it? (Well, it can get pretty hot.)
> Why can't America be more like Subic Bay?
Indeed....
> Maybe if we bomb enough buildings we can eventually
> reach that plateau.
Actually, the coastline there is pretty rugged and scenic.
> I am guessing your ultimate goal is for your mom
> become a $5.00 smiley playing whore? btw: speaking of shoveling rubble off
> dead people; didn't Subic bay get buried by a volcano recently?
No. That'd be Clark Field, and the ash was cleared years ago.
You don't really know what you're talking about, do you?
> You are one shining academic star.
Yeah, and you're so full of bullshit you can make crops grow just by
standing in the fields.
Gary McManus
Michael Schneider wrote:
>
> In article <34923dfd...@snews.zippo.com>, Michael OKC wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:30:40 -0600, mike1@***DELETE***visi.com (Michael
> > Schneider) wrote:
> >
> > >> Men of good will should be able to live in peace without government.
> > >
> > >
> > > "Should"? They *do*. I've been there.
> >
> > I've seen enough of your "good will", Mike,....
>
> Get this, you fucking lame geek: I'd never vote to stick a gun up
> *your* ass
OH DEER LORD!!! Pleas take this vulgar langwage some-where else. Their
just might be yung children reading this. BTW, you need to read you're
Bibel. Sticking you're "gun" up other peopl'es asses is not the true
way. You need to contact you're local minister or priest.
Gary McManus
Michael Schneider
> Billy Beck wrote:
> >
> >
> > Nothing changes, that is, unless you're changing the referent
> > *principle* along the way as you "scale it up", which would be
> > dishonest.
> >
> > And, you're not my dad, so you don't get to pull that shit on me.
>
> Ah, now we get to the crux of the attitude. Apparently, Billy's dad
> used
> the "pull that shit" on him. I don't know what kind of perverted act
> this "pulling shit" is, but it's probably best left in one of those
> alt.sex.* newsgroups.
>
> Gary McManus
Gary, have you counted your brain cells lately?
Some seem to have escaped.
Michael OKC
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:57:16 -0600, mike1@***DELETE***visi.com (Michael
Schneider) wrote:
>In article <34923dfd...@snews.zippo.com>, Michael OKC wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:30:40 -0600, mike1@***DELETE***visi.com (Michael
>> Schneider) wrote:
>>
>> >> Men of good will should be able to live in peace without government.
>> >
>> >
>> > "Should"? They *do*. I've been there.
>>
>> I've seen enough of your "good will", Mike,....
>
>
> Get this, you fucking lame geek: I'd never vote to stick a gun up
>*your* ass to make you cough left to the IRS to pay my salary.
Is this statement indicative of yet more of your "good will", Mike? I'm
curious, are you capable of arguing your beliefs without resorting to
elementary school name calling? If not, then I feel compelled to stop wasting
my energy on you...
>
>
>> to know that you're lying your butt off with that last statement.
>> You have NO good will toward anyone unless they tow your line...
>
>
> Well of course: civilized men get the nod.
>
>
> Ah, and that's "toe the line", ya darn goof.
Thanks for correcting me. We all need a little correction at one time or
another, some of us just aren't man enough to realize it.
Michael OKC
Michael OKC
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:02:20 GMT, bill....@usa.removethis.net (Bill Kasper)
wrote:
>=I've seen enough of your "good will", Mike, to know that you're lying your
>=butt off with that last statement. You have NO good will toward anyone
>unless
>=they tow your line...
>=
>
> Instead of "your line", you should have said "their own weight".
> This change would have created a correct statement, instead of a
>stupid, emotional, lying one.
What qualifies you to determine whether someone pulls their weight, Bill? And
further, are you insinuating that by virtue of being a federal employee that I
do not in some way work hard or pay taxes? If so, you need to do some heavy
reevaluation of the situation, though I doubt any amount of study or thought
would pry open your "steel-trap" mind.
Michael OKC
Michael OKC
>>
>> Gary McManus
>
>
>
> Gary, have you counted your brain cells lately?
>
> Some seem to have escaped.
Ah, another fine example of the pot and the kettle!
Michael OKC
Kim Elmore
In article <mike1-12129...@192-111.dynamic.visi.com>,
Michael Schneider <mike1@***DELETE***visi.com> wrote:
>In article <3490C8...@ou.edu>, Gary McManus <gmcm...@ou.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Ah, now we get to the crux of the attitude. Apparently, Billy's dad
>> used
>> the "pull that shit" on him. I don't know what kind of perverted act
>> this "pulling shit" is, but it's probably best left in one of those
>> alt.sex.* newsgroups.
>>
>
> Gary, have you counted your brain cells lately?
>
> Some seem to have escaped.
This has got to be the lamest, weakest usenet response I've ever
seen.
Gary, it's really not fair to enter into a battle of wits with an
unarmed man!
Kim Elmore
Robert Lindsay
In article <mike1-12129...@192-111.dynamic.visi.com>,
Michael Schneider <mike1@***DELETE***visi.com> wrote:
>> Schneider) wrote:
>> I've seen enough of your "good will", Mike,....
>
>
> Get this, you fucking lame geek: I'd never vote to stick a gun up
>*your* ass to make you cough left to the IRS to pay my salary.
I, however, would pay big money to see a film of the above.
Although it's probably illegal in OK anyway. Although I'm not sure what
"cough left" means.
Oh and you pay my salary too. Why dont't you flame me? aren't I cute enough?
Robert Lindsay
In article <mike1-12129...@192-111.dynamic.visi.com>,
Michael Schneider <mike1@***DELETE***visi.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Some seem to have escaped.
Hell, compared to you, Gary's got plenty to spare. Having fun with
the fact noogie your getting in sci.military.naval?
Michael OKC
On 12 Dec 1997 10:24:13 -0600, rob...@zorak.spc.noaa.gov (Robert Lindsay)
wrote:
>In article <mike1-12129...@192-111.dynamic.visi.com>,
>Michael Schneider <mike1@***DELETE***visi.com> wrote:
>>In article <34923dfd...@snews.zippo.com>, Michael OKC wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:30:40 -0600, mike1@***DELETE***visi.com (Michael
>>> Schneider) wrote:
>>> I've seen enough of your "good will", Mike,....
>>
>>
>> Get this, you fucking lame geek: I'd never vote to stick a gun up
>>*your* ass to make you cough left to the IRS to pay my salary.
>
>I, however, would pay big money to see a film of the above.
>
>Although it's probably illegal in OK anyway. Although I'm not sure what
>"cough left" means.
>
>Oh and you pay my salary too. Why dont't you flame me? aren't I cute enough?
The ironic part of this is that we likely contribute to his salary through the
free market system. If "parasites" like us weren't out there buying products
and services from "upstanding, anarchist citizens" like him, he'd soon be
looking for work. The basic tenets here is, "What goes around, comes around".
I could easily argue that labor union members are parasites guilty of driving
the cost of goods steadily upward, but I'm sure I'd meet with some hefty
flames!
Mike's understanding of economics and the free market system is likely as deep
as the vast pool of knowledge he's demonstrated in most other topics...
Michael OKC
Timothy Melton
In article <34933f74...@snews.zippo.com>,
Michael OKC <Michael OKC> wrote:
>We The People corrected the slavery problem. It took going to war against
>people like you, Billy, but we corrected the problem.
Repeat this phrase over and over again to yourself until you remember
and understand it:
"The Civil War was NOT about slavery. It was about state's rights."
The result was that states lost their rights but continue to maintain
many of their responsibilities.
>Again, YOU are quite welcome to find another place to live where the
>government or lack of it is more suitable to your tastes. This country
>happens to have a government, and if you're opposed to living under its
>"tyranny" then you should pack your things and leave.
... or work within the framework of the law to change it.