Beverly Oliver-M's Statements to me.
John Hunt
Beverly Oliver took the podium and announced to the crowd that "her" film
had been found. She said she was provided with four frames of the film to
prove its authenticity. Of course a hand screamed into the air, the
question being, can we see the picture. She said "No" with great definite.
She said she could not show the pictures as part of the deal to obtain the
film. Sounds reasonable to me.
I saw BO in the lobby. I said to her that I understand that she could not
show the picture to me but could she describe the scene. She said it showed
the head shot and the GK assassin. I told her I sincerely hoped she was
successful in obtaining the film as it would embarrass those why had doubted
her and would be a sweet vindication. I asked her if she was the one seen in
the Z-film behind Brehm and son. She hesitated then said yes. I thanked
her and was on my way. I had never been convinced by BO's story. That is my
personal opinion to which I'm entitled, as I'm sure most of you would agree.
My mind was open, however.
I relate to you the rest of the story because Beverly Oliver never asked not
to. She never asked me to keep what I was about to see in confidence. If
she had, I certainly would have. But she did not do that. I found it
strange then, and as I've had time to reflect on what occurred, it becomes
stranger still. Any way, here goes.
I was seated towards the front of the conference room the next morning. The
conference had already started when BO came in. I was not surprised when
she chose to sit at the table and chair opposite mine. She shuffled papers
from her bag onto the table. She held four photo close to her chest like a
poker player with the winning hand. She ever so carefully laid the photos
face down on the table. As she shuffled the paper around , one of the
photos fell off the table and landed face up on the floor. Of course I
looked. Very quickely she scooped up the photo and reterned ti to the pile.
After BO was done shuffling the papers and photos she motioned for me to
come close. I knew I was about to see a photo. I was excited. I leaned
over to her and she said pull your chair close. I did. She said that she
was going to show me the head shot from this newly discovered film. She
did. She also quickly showed me the other three. I was stunned! They were
the head shot from the Nix film. I immediately recognized the frames.
It is not often at all that I am speechless, as my long suffering love will
tell you. :-) I was speechless at that moment, however. Scenarios raced
through my mind. I thanked her and said something to the effect of, "good
for you."
At the break, BO showed one of the photos to Doug Horne as he was answering
question from those who had approached the speakers table at the head of the
room. She made sure that only he could see that frame, yet let her words
freely be heard. She reiterated a point she made the day before, and I
quote: "it must be my film 'cause I aint in the frames".
I talked to BO during that break. I said the film was taken from a point
too far to the west to be the Babushka film. She said "I was running as I
filmed and you can see that in the Zapruder film". I was stunned again, but
not speechless. I thought she might be talking about panning the camera to
follow the limo and had chosen her words poorly.
I said, "Oh, you mean you were panning along with the limo."
She said, "No, I was running as I filmed and you can see that in the
Zapruder film."
Even a cursory viewing of the Z-film shows that not to be the case. I was,
and still am, confused by these statements.
Later, as she was sitting on the south Side of Elm St. just west of where
Hill and Moorman stood on 11-22-1963, I tried to demonstrate to BO that the
film was taken from the wrong perspective to be the Babushka film. She
dismissed me with a wave of the hand and these words, and I quote: "you have
to understand the physics of it." She did not want to hear what I had to
say.
I attempted to show her that the film could not be the Babushka film in
order to save her aggravation and time and money. My intent was to help and
to clarify, not to embarrass. I left her, and Jack White with whom she was
discussing the photos, with a polite salutation.
This much is certain:
1. The photo Beverly Oliver showed me was the head shot frame from the Nix
film to the exclusion of all others.
2. The frame she showed me was corrected for the slope of Elm St. Bob
Groden did this in "The Assassination Films." To my knowledge, few other
researchers correct the photos in relation to the horizon. I do, as my
upcoming essay will attest.
3. The Babushka lady is seen at the instant of the head shot in the
Muchmore film. She has not moved and her feet are spread wide. She
remained planted in that spot as she panned her camera.
4. Beverly Oliver never asked me to keep in confidence what she was about to
show me. Nor did she ask me afterward when it should have become apparent
to her that I did not believe the photo to be from the Babushka film.
There are more details, but this is the core of the conversations I had with
BO. The quotes provided above come from the contemporaneous notes I made.
John Hunt
Blackburst
>Beverly Oliver took the podium and announced to the crowd that "her" film
>had been found.
>The photo Beverly Oliver showed me was the head shot frame from the Nix
>film to the exclusion of all others.
This incident certainly does not enhance the credibility of a woman about whose
story substantial and reasonable questions have already been raised. At this
point, it seems appropriate to suspect that her basic account may be untrue,
and to wonder what her motivation might be for making these claims in the first
place - and continuing to attempt to revise and buttress it.
John Hunt
Blackburst wrote in message
<19991126095733...@ng-cj1.aol.com>...
>John Hunt wrote:
>>Beverly Oliver took the podium and announced to the crowd that "her" film
>>had been found.
>
>>film to the exclusion of all others.
>
whose
>story substantial and reasonable questions have already been raised. At
this
>point, it seems appropriate to suspect that her basic account may be
untrue,
>and to wonder what her motivation might be for making these claims in the
first
>place - and continuing to attempt to revise and buttress it.
What is interesting is that the Babushka lady does move down the street
after the assassination as witnesses by the Bond slides. The Paschall film
shows that the BL did not move to that point imeadiately after the
assassination.
John
Stugrad98
have to pass off as her film??
-Stu
John Hunt
Stugrad98 wrote in message <19991126120420...@ng-ci1.aol.com>...
Stu,
There aren't many options here.
1. She is genuine and is being duped.
2. She is genuine and is trying to dupe us.
3. She is a fraud and is being duped.
4. She is a fraud and is trying to dupe us.
I leave it to each to determine her credibility for themselves. Contact me
via private e-mail and I will give you my first hand impression.
John
SKeat97
>From: "John Hunt" jm...@efortress.com
>Date: Fri, 26 November 1999 03:12 PM EST
>Message-id: <wcz%3.106428$YB4.4...@typ12.nn.bcandid.com>
>
>
>Stugrad98 wrote in message <19991126120420...@ng-ci1.aol.com>...
>>So are we to conclude that Oliver is attempting to use the Nix film which
>we do
>>have to pass off as her film??
>>
>>-Stu
>
>
>Stu,
>
>There aren't many options here.
>
>1. She is genuine and is being duped.
>2. She is genuine and is trying to dupe us.
>3. She is a fraud and is being duped.
>4. She is a fraud and is trying to dupe us.
I will continue to go with option #4. Oliver is getting *real* desperate now to
try to dig herself out of the mess she created for herself with her lies. She
continues to be a poor liar and the truth is coming out real fast now. The only
question that remains is if the buffs here that continually support her will
admit what has happened over the years and hold her accountable.
Steve K.
prwh...@yahoo.com
singer in Nov. 1963, who was willing to hang out with the
likes of Jack Ruby and later married a hardened criminal,
I believe she would have taken full advantage of the
opportunity of being interviewed on national television
as an eyewitness to JFK's assassination. There was
obviously no apparent fear from being interviewed, as Jean
Hill, Mary Moorman, Gerald Brehm, and many others
appeared on camera that day. And yet we are to believe
that Beverly, despite being photographed amongst the
crowd who headed for the grazzy knoll, dashed home and
stayed there for the next three days, protected by her
brother (whatever happened to him?), without revealing to
anyone in the media that she had filmed the assassination
from a perfect location. Now we learn that Beverly is so
desperate to prove she is the Babushka Lady that she is
willing to accept frames from the Nix film to verify her
story. We are wasting our time dealing with her
allegations. - Peter
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Martin Shackelford
about Oliver. At the same time, dismissing her based on this may be
premature. She never saw her film, as she said it was taken from her
before it could be developed, so she wouldn't actually know what it
looked like, and adjusted blowups from the Nix film might appear to her
to be her film. It's possible someone is trying to con her out of money.
Martin
--
Martin Shackelford
"You're going to find that many of the truths we
cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
-Obi-Wan Kenobi
"You must unlearn what you have learned." --Yoda
Barb Junkkarinen
<msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>The Oliver story is credible as John tells it. I've always had questions
>about Oliver. At the same time, dismissing her based on this may be
>premature. She never saw her film, as she said it was taken from her
>before it could be developed, so she wouldn't actually know what it
>looked like, and adjusted blowups from the Nix film might appear to her
>to be her film. It's possible someone is trying to con her out of money.
>
>Martin
Exactly, Martin. I experienced a couple of odd things as regards this
whole thing while in Dallas myself, and I was aware of John's
experience as well as that of a couple of others who had the same or a
similar experience. And it does give one pause. But, she's basically
had a pretty good thing going here with no way for anyone to totally
debunk her. Bringing out a film that people will easily recognize
would seem to be an obvious bad move, so I too wonder if Beverly is
not being played the fool by someone else. I hope she will give
serious thought to John's and other people's comments to her about the
Nix film and get someone who knows these films well involved in any
negotiations. She says she is dealing with a man in a foreign country
about all of this. When told of links to people in that country and of
a person who speaks the language that could be of help, she sort of
grunted, gave an icy stare and quickly walked away....now that was
thought very odd and commented on by the few people who were standing
in proximity at the time.
She also says she's found the red shoes she had on that day.....
Barb :-)
prwh...@yahoo.com
SKeat97
>She also says she's found the red shoes she had on that day.....
>
Regarding Beverly Oliver, Barb says:
>She also says she's found the red shoes she had on that day.....
I bet she has, Barb. Did she also find the fat calves that we see the B lady
sporting? <g> Face it, Barb. BO is an entertainer and a con. You all should run
her out of these conferences on a rail and then work to fix all the damage she
has done to the conspiracy community over the years.
Steve K.
Steve K.
>
SKeat97
> Given that Beverly Oliver was an ambitious 17-year-old
>> singer in Nov. 1963, who was willing to hang out with the
>> likes of Jack Ruby and later married a hardened criminal,
>> I believe she would have taken full advantage of the
>> opportunity of being interviewed on national television
>> as an eyewitness to JFK's assassination. There was
>> obviously no apparent fear from being interviewed, as Jean
>> Hill, Mary Moorman, Gerald Brehm, and many others
>> appeared on camera that day. And yet we are to believe
>> that Beverly, despite being photographed amongst the
>> crowd who headed for the grazzy knoll, dashed home and
>> stayed there for the next three days, protected by her
>> brother (whatever happened to him?), without revealing to
>> anyone in the media that she had filmed the assassination
>> from a perfect location. Now we learn that Beverly is so
>> desperate to prove she is the Babushka Lady that she is
>> willing to accept frames from the Nix film to verify her
>> story. We are wasting our time dealing with her
>> allegations. - Peter
You said a mouthful there, Peter. And I give John credit for digging into the
matter and being able to discern the truth of the situation. I just don't know
why the buff continue to invite people like BO to speak and "sing" at these
events. They must realize by now that stuff like that continues to distort the
work that they attempt to do.
Steve K.
Martin Shackelford
Sounds like Beverly is being played by a first-class con artist,
who is good enough to keep her suspicious of anyone who might help her
avoid the con.
Martin
Natasha Helms
Did she get any monetary offers on the "red shoes"? What a fake.
Nat
DAnde9348
>From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
>Date: Fri, 26 November 1999 04:49 PM EST
>Message-id: <383EFF7E...@concentric.net>
>
>The Oliver story is credible as John tells it. I've always had questions
>about Oliver. At the same time, dismissing her based on this may be
>premature. She never saw her film, as she said it was taken from her
>before it could be developed, so she wouldn't actually know what it
>looked like, and adjusted blowups from the Nix film might appear to her
>to be her film. It's possible someone is trying to con her out of money.
>
>Martin
>
I too have been skeptical about Bev Oliver's story..... Some of that skepticism
is based on the the fact that I always assumed that she was the woman
STANDING behind Charles Brehm and his boy. But she apparently told John she
was RUNNING.... She does look more like the running woman than the standing
woman.
I haven't checked the Z film yet to see it the running woman has a
camera.....but if she does it would substantiate Bev's claim.
Walt
ricky_...@my-deja.com
I organized the first ever Canadian Symposium on
the JFK Assassination in Sudbury Ontario back in
1993. Some of you were there. I invited
Beverly Oliver to speak at the suggestion of the
former "JFK Assassination Information Center" in
Dallas. They believed Beverly's story and I am
convinced Beverly believes in what she is saying.
I would side with Martin Shackleford in his view
that Beverly is being dupped over these
assassination photos. I feel she would not
knowingly sell a phony idea off onto people.
I've spent a lot of time getting to know this
woman, and if she is giving the appearance that
she is dismissing you for asking important
questions, it's only because she is feeling a
little defensive. I'd like to give her the
benefit of the doubt and focus on who is trying
to dupe her and why.
Rick Nelson
Kingston Ontario
Vern Pascal
could get together and sing Poor Little Fool, or how about Lonesome
Town, maybe Garden Party. FWIW- I tend to believe Beverly Oliver before
she saw too many Oliver Stone movies....Jeff
DAnde9348
>Date: Mon, 29 November 1999 11:14 AM EST
>Message-id: <19991129111400...@ng-fw1.aol.com>
>
>
>Hello Martin,
>I too have been skeptical about Bev Oliver's story..... Some of that
>skepticism
>is based on the the fact that I always assumed that she was the woman
>STANDING behind Charles Brehm and his boy. But she apparently told John she
>was RUNNING.... She does look more like the running woman than the standing
>woman.
>
>I haven't checked the Z film yet to see it the running woman has a
>camera.....but if she does it would substantiate Bev's claim.
>
>Walt
After posting this I got to thinking about What Bev Oliver said in her
book..... I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure she claimed to be the woman
STANDING behind Charles Brehm in her book..... But according to John she
appears to be changing her story.... Does anybody have her book? What did she
say about her position at the time of the shooting? Was she standing or
running?....
Walt
Sterren
WHO IS THE VAMPIRE MAN?
You know, the spooky dude in the Zapruder film standing near the
Willises, wearing a Bela Lugosi cape and a Dr. Death hat. On a 72
degree day!
WHO WAS VAMPIRE MAN?!
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
John Hunt
DAnde9348 wrote in message <19991129111400...@ng-fw1.aol.com>...
>><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Beverly Oliver-M's Statements to me.
>>Date: Fri, 26 November 1999 04:49 PM EST
>>Message-id: <383EFF7E...@concentric.net>
>>
>>The Oliver story is credible as John tells it. I've always had questions
>>about Oliver. At the same time, dismissing her based on this may be
>>premature. She never saw her film, as she said it was taken from her
>>before it could be developed, so she wouldn't actually know what it
>>looked like, and adjusted blowups from the Nix film might appear to her
>>to be her film. It's possible someone is trying to con her out of money.
>>
>>Martin
>>
>I too have been skeptical about Bev Oliver's story..... Some of that
skepticism
>is based on the the fact that I always assumed that she was the woman
>STANDING behind Charles Brehm and his boy. But she apparently told John
she
>was RUNNING.... She does look more like the running woman than the
standing
>woman.
Walt,
"Running Lady" has been identified and her recollections of the event were
shown via videotape at the Lancer Dallas conference. She seemed very
credible to me and even now looked like the running lady. I have a mental
block on her name which is driving me crazy... It is Toni(sp)F....
John
>
>I haven't checked the Z film yet to see it the running woman has a
>camera.....
It does not appear that she does.
but if she does it would substantiate Bev's claim.
John
>
>Walt
>
Martin Shackelford
memorable occasion. Lovely campus and interesting conference.
Martin Shackelford
time ago.
Martin
John Hunt wrote:
--
Martin Shackelford
account of things, then got a bunch of later stuff mixed in with it. The
earliest version is the more reliable.
Martin
Natasha Helms wrote:
--
Martin Shackelford
1) She first identified herself as the Babushka Lady, the woman near
Brehm.
2) The running woman doesn't appear to have a camera. She's wearing a
short dark skirt with what look like white stockings.
3) The running woman isn't wearing a scarf, as Beverly said she wore.
4) The running woman has black hair, Beverly was a blond (unless she was
wearing a black wig).
I wish she would get her story straight.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
Until this latest twist, she always said she was the woman near Brehm
with the camera.
There was even corroboration of this in an FBI document, which talked
about a film taken from that location, but misidentified it as the Nix
film (as Darryl Weatherly discovered).
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Sterren wrote:
--
Sterren
Has Croft ever testified as to what he heard/saw that day?
Debra Conway
of KAC
Bill Parker
Personally I'm waiting to hear Mr T sing a touching and lovestruck verison of:
"I Pity the Poor Little Fool" to McNally....
I'm sure he'll be gentle with Jerry!
Bill
John Hunt
Debra Conway wrote in message <3843312E...@jfklancer.com>...
>Toni Foster. :) Look for info from the video interview in the next issue
>of KAC
>
>Deb
>http://jfklancer.com
Thanks Debra.
John
DAnde9348
>From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
>Message-id: <3843336C...@concentric.net>
>Several problems with her latest version, Walt:
>
>1) She first identified herself as the Babushka Lady, the woman near
>Brehm.
>2) The running woman doesn't appear to have a camera. She's wearing a
>short dark skirt with what look like white stockings.
>3) The running woman isn't wearing a scarf, as Beverly said she wore.
The scarf or " babushka" is THE thing that has always made me suspicious of Bev
Oliver's story.... In her book she makes it very clear that she is very proud
of her blond tresses .... I believe she said she visited the hairdresser every
morning....
She claims she went to Dealey to see the President.... If she was so proud of
he blond mane then why in the world would she put a "babushka" over it....It
doesn't wash...
>4) The running woman has black hair, Beverly was a blond (unless she was
>wearing a black wig).
>I wish she would get her story straight.
I've long suspected that Oliver is either a bit wacky or she's a disinformation
agent ( she could be both)
>
>Martin
Walt
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Sterren wrote:
--
L. Jane Goldsmith
wearing a black wig in Dealey on Nov. 22 in her book, as I recall. She wore
wigs a lot as she was in show biz.
Martin Shackelford wrote:
> Several problems with her latest version, Walt:
>
> 1) She first identified herself as the Babushka Lady, the woman near
> Brehm.
> 2) The running woman doesn't appear to have a camera. She's wearing a
> short dark skirt with what look like white stockings.
> 3) The running woman isn't wearing a scarf, as Beverly said she wore.
> 4) The running woman has black hair, Beverly was a blond (unless she was
> wearing a black wig).
> I wish she would get her story straight.
>
> Martin
Debra Conway
Foster. Beverly is not claiming to be the "running woman." There is lots
of confusion over what people say "she said," and not what she really
said.
Debra
Jerry
So you buy into Bev Oliver's BS ... ur ... BL claims? Maybe you'd like
to trot her around to the High Schools and Junior HIghs in your area so
that you can "educate" the public about the "truth" of the JFK
assassination.
And tell me, Debra, what document, among Newman's 130, names the FBI
Agents who heard a tape sent up from MEXI? And if he/they were able to
determine it wasn't Ozzie on that tape ... how did he/they do it,
exactly?
And maybe you can explain why Eldon Rudd believes that only typewritten
transcripts and a photo were brought up from MEXI to Dallas ... and
maybe you explain why Wally Heitman, who received the pouch and brought
it to SAIC Shanklin has always said there was no tape received? And how
does your fair-haired boy, Newman, explain that Shanklin wrote two
airtels to SOG informing Hoover that there had been a misunderstanding
and that "no actual tapes" had been received?
Mewman is nothing but a Bev Oliver with a Ph.D.
Jerry
In article <3843312E...@jfklancer.com>,
de...@jfklancer.com wrote:
> Toni Foster. :) Look for info from the video interview in the next
issue
> of KAC
>
> Deb
> http://jfklancer.com
>
> John Hunt wrote:
> >
> > DAnde9348 wrote in message <19991129111400.15610.00001275@ng-
fw1.aol.com>...
> > >><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Beverly Oliver-M's Statements to me.
> > >>From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
pamela mcelwain-brown
assassination, then found herself across the street. this is also included
in her book, 'nightmare in dallas'. throughout this thread, there seems to
be a tendency to not bother to check out what she actually said, then blame
her for incorrect conclusions being reached.
pamela
DAnde9348
>Date: Wed, 01 December 1999 09:17 PM EST
>Message-id: <3845D6D9...@jfklancer.com>
>Beverly did not say she was the "running woman." That person is Toni Foster.
Beverly is not claiming to be the "running woman." There is lots of confusion
over what people say "she said" and not what she really said.
>Debra
Debra.... This thread was started with John Hunt's claim that Beverly told him
that she was running while she was exposing the film.
Someone definitely is lying..... who is it?
Walt
Debra Conway
Prove to us all that Beverly Oliver is not the Bubusha Lady. And her
changing her story is not proof she is not the BL. I give her the same
benefit of the doubt I give any other witness in this case. Until
someone proves otherwise, we can only go by her claim. Sometimes I
wonder if it was the "Bubusha Man" and not a former nightclub singer
would anyone have a problem with this at all?
And your opinion of Newman is put in the same category as your opinion
of Posner. I ignore both.
Jerry, your mind is closed so I don't know why you even post here.
Sincerely,
Debra
> > > >><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Beverly Oliver-M's Statements to me.
Vern Pascal
image.. 'ol Jelly..probably 300 pounds of goo!..LOL..Jeff
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Jerry wrote:
--
Sterren
> Jerry
And you're nothing but a whiney hall-monitor with a watermelon up his
ass.
AnthonyMarsh
>
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Beverly Oliver-M's Statements to me.
> >From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
> >Message-id: <3843336C...@concentric.net>
>
> >Several problems with her latest version, Walt:
> >
> >1) She first identified herself as the Babushka Lady, the woman near
> >Brehm.
> >2) The running woman doesn't appear to have a camera. She's wearing a
> >short dark skirt with what look like white stockings.
> >3) The running woman isn't wearing a scarf, as Beverly said she wore.
>
> Oliver's story.... In her book she makes it very clear that she is very proud
> of her blond tresses .... I believe she said she visited the hairdresser every
> morning....
>
> She claims she went to Dealey to see the President.... If she was so proud of
> he blond mane then why in the world would she put a "babushka" over it....It
> doesn't wash...
>
Because it was very windy that day and she didn't want her hair messed
up by the wind. Any woman knows that. But dodo men like you wouldn't.
> >4) The running woman has black hair, Beverly was a blond (unless she was
> >wearing a black wig).
> >I wish she would get her story straight.
>
> I've long suspected that Oliver is either a bit wacky or she's a disinformation
> agent ( she could be both)
>
She may just be very confused and saw a void which she could fill.
> >
> >Martin
>
> Walt
--
Anthony Marsh
The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
SKeat97
>Foster. Beverly is not claiming to be the "running woman." There is lots
>said.
Well, what exactly *is* BO's position, these days, Debra? I hope you realize
that you are doing the NID conference a tremendous disservice by having
anything to do with such a person that lacks all credibility. Regards.
Steve K.
>
>Debra
SKeat97
>She may just be very confused and saw a void which she could fill.
Come on, Anthony. Take a stand here. Its obvious to most all that BO has no
credibility at all and is simply trying to further her exposure and her career
in entertainment with the JFK case. She is not confused. She is a con-woman
extrordiaire.
Steve K.
>
AnthonyMarsh
And so?
> Steve K.
Debra Hartman
got in over her head before she realized the consequences. Now she
does not know how to get out. Encouraging this lie in any way is a
disservice to her, let alone the truth.
On Thu, 02 Dec 1999 06:56:29 -0600, pamela mcelwain-brown
<pam...@primenet.com> wrote:
>beverly oliver stated that she remained in one place while filming the
>assassination, then found herself across the street. this is also included
>in her book, 'nightmare in dallas'. throughout this thread, there seems to
>be a tendency to not bother to check out what she actually said, then blame
>her for incorrect conclusions being reached.
>
>pamela
>
>Martin Shackelford wrote:
>
>> Several problems with her latest version, Walt:
>>
>> 1) She first identified herself as the Babushka Lady, the woman near
>> Brehm.
>> 2) The running woman doesn't appear to have a camera. She's wearing a
>> short dark skirt with what look like white stockings.
>> 3) The running woman isn't wearing a scarf, as Beverly said she wore.
>> 4) The running woman has black hair, Beverly was a blond (unless she was
>> wearing a black wig).
>> I wish she would get her story straight.
>>
>> Martin
pamela mcelwain-brown
do. that is my choice. in fact, beverly has a lot more credibility to me than
you do.
pamela
Vern Pascal
But until the "real" Babushka Lady stands up, and her film , which must
be a doozy, is shown to the public, I for one am giving Beverly the
benefit of a doubt.----------------------------Vern
Kate Taylor
I met Beverly in Dallas this year and talked to her at some length. I truly
believe she is the real babushka lady.
Kate
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------
The Lonegunwoman -- Seeking the truth in the Kennedy assassinations
http://www.lonegunwoman.freeserve.co.uk
Vern Pascal <lazu...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:19450-38...@storefull-152.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
SKeat97
>Beverly Oliver is a sad woman caught in a lie not of her making who
>got in over her head before she realized the consequences. Now she
>does not know how to get out. Encouraging this lie in any way is a
>disservice to her, let alone the truth.
I agree with what you said, Debra, except for your statement that the lie is
not of her own making. I am not sure how that could be true.
Steve K.
>
Debra Hartman
and Chauncey Holt. Each one of the three went for a "visit," and came
out as "characters" in the assassination saga created in Dallas:
Beverly as the B.L,, Ricky White as Son of the Assassin, and Chauncey
Holt as a tramp.
None of these relative naifs [ Holt is not exactly a naif in most
respects--he was a major homicide suspect] was capable of devising and
"defending" his/her story on his own. Ms. Oliver had the additional
excuse of having a critically ill child in need of an organ
transplant. My personal belief is that she was assured she could
participate in the hoax because the actual B.L. would not publicly
contradict her. Someday, that will probably change. Assuming the
B.L. could not bear to part with her film, of course.
pamela mcelwain-brown
Debra Hartman wrote:
> Ms. Oliver was created by the same hoaxer who brought you Ricky White
> and Chauncey Holt. Each one of the three went for a "visit," and came
> out as "characters" in the assassination saga created in Dallas:
> Beverly as the B.L,, Ricky White as Son of the Assassin, and Chauncey
> Holt as a tramp.
'debra',
you seem to have some information in this regard that might act as
substantiation for your speculation; why don't you share that with the group?
btw, is that what happened to elrod as well?
pamela
Vern Pascal
Debra Hartman
<pam...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>
>Debra Hartman wrote:
>
>> Ms. Oliver was created by the same hoaxer who brought you Ricky White
>> and Chauncey Holt. Each one of the three went for a "visit," and came
>> out as "characters" in the assassination saga created in Dallas:
>> Beverly as the B.L,, Ricky White as Son of the Assassin, and Chauncey
>> Holt as a tramp.
>
>'debra',
> you seem to have some information in this regard that might act as
>substantiation for your speculation; why don't you share that with the group?
All it takes is brains, Ms. Hypenate. You simply have to trace each
of these persons to their source---not a hard thing to do, if you have
an ounce of common sense and a shred of analytical reason.
> btw, is that what happened to elrod as well?
HAHAHAHAHAHHA! No, Hypen, John Elrod is *exactly* who he says he is,
and the papers are all there to prove it. He's clean of the
fingerprints of the Dallas misinformation machine, and has never
asked for nor received a dime for his story nor an appearance at an
"assassination conference." John Elrod is the REAL THING.
Thanks to all the lies and liars who have clouded the truth, it's hard
to know it when you see it for some folks, huh?
Knowing how to separate the wheat from the chaff isn't difficult, but
it does require using your brain.
pamela mcelwain-brown
Debra Hartman wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:55:58 -0600, pamela mcelwain-brown
> <pam...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Debra Hartman wrote:
> >
> >> Ms. Oliver was created by the same hoaxer who brought you Ricky White
> >> and Chauncey Holt. Each one of the three went for a "visit," and came
> >> out as "characters" in the assassination saga created in Dallas:
> >> Beverly as the B.L,, Ricky White as Son of the Assassin, and Chauncey
> >> Holt as a tramp.
> >
> >'debra',
> > you seem to have some information in this regard that might act as
> >substantiation for your speculation; why don't you share that with the group?
>
> All it takes is brains, Ms. Hypenate. You simply have to trace each
> of these persons to their source---not a hard thing to do, if you have
> an ounce of common sense and a shred of analytical reason.
oh really, ms phi beta kappa, i presume? you are comfortable lumping beverly o in
with characters of lesser repute. pourquoi? hmmm...could it be that beverly's
story threatens elrod's? i was hoping you were working from something more
conclusive than speculation and personal agenda...
>
> > btw, is that what happened to elrod as well?
>
> HAHAHAHAHAHHA! No, Hypen, John Elrod is *exactly* who he says he is,
> and the papers are all there to prove it.
o really? i don't know a whole lot of people who would agree to that...just maybe
one or two, if you don't count the aliases...
> He's clean of the
> fingerprints of the Dallas misinformation machine, and has never
> asked for nor received a dime for his story nor an appearance at an
> "assassination conference." John Elrod is the REAL THING.
>
> Thanks to all the lies and liars who have clouded the truth, it's hard
> to know it when you see it for some folks, huh?
>
> Knowing how to separate the wheat from the chaff isn't difficult, but
> it does require using your brain.
wow, personal insults from ms 'brain. guess i should run away like izzy did...
pamela
Debra Hartman
<lam...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>
>Debra Hartman wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:55:58 -0600, pamela mcelwain-brown
>> <Lam...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Debra Hartman wrote:
>> >
>> >> Ms. Oliver was created by the same hoaxer who brought you Ricky White
>> >> and Chauncey Holt. Each one of the three went for a "visit," and came
>> >> out as "characters" in the assassination saga created in Dallas:
>> >> Beverly as the B.L,, Ricky White as Son of the Assassin, and Chauncey
>> >> Holt as a tramp.
>> >
>> >'debra',
>> > you seem to have some information in this regard that might act as
>> >substantiation for your speculation; why don't you share that with the group?
>>
>> All it takes is brains, Ms. Hypenate. You simply have to trace each
>> of these persons to their source---not a hard thing to do, if you have
>> an ounce of common sense and a shred of analytical reason.
>
>oh really, ms phi beta kappa, i presume?
Righto, but you said it, not me.
>you are comfortable lumping beverly o in
>with characters of lesser repute.
All hoaxers are pretty much the same. I do feel sorry for her because
of her personal trials and tribulations.
>pourquoi?
Oh, please. Unless you want to converse entirely in French, cut the
pretention. And if you do, go to a French language newsgroup.
>hmmm...could it be that beverly's
>story threatens elrod's?
In your dreams, hypenatta.
>i was hoping you were working from something more
>conclusive than speculation and personal agenda...
Translate: I am unable to use my common sense and analytical reason,
so I'll resort to the standard tired insults.
>
>
>>
>> > btw, is that what happened to elrod as well?
>>
>> HAHAHAHAHAHHA! No, Hypen, John Elrod is *exactly* who he says he is,
>> and the papers are all there to prove it.
>
>o really? i don't know a whole lot of people who would agree to that
Sorry your world is so limited. Time to get in touch with reality.
>..just maybe
>one or two, if you don't count the aliases...
See above. Don't know any aliases. In the six years Elrod has been
known, there has not been a single successful factual challenge to
anything he has said. Every attack (by a handful of internet
newsgroupies) has been an attempt at character assassination, or a
specious semantic argument. And with each attack, Elrod has become
stronger than before. A recent attempted attack resulted in a
revelation that *supported* Elrod's account. Just ask Mr. Burr, who
fled when this was pointed out.
>
>> He's clean of the
>> fingerprints of the Dallas misinformation machine, and has never
>> asked for nor received a dime for his story nor an appearance at an
>> "assassination conference." John Elrod is the REAL THING.
>>
>> Thanks to all the lies and liars who have clouded the truth, it's hard
>> to know it when you see it for some folks, huh?
>>
>> Knowing how to separate the wheat from the chaff isn't difficult, but
>> it does require using your brain.
>
>wow, personal insults from ms 'brain.
Wasn't really personal--but if the shoe fits.....
>guess i should run away like izzy did...
More wishful thinking, hypenatta. Isabell run from anything....I
don't think so. But I've learned the hard way she doesn't suffer
fools gladly, and gets easily bored. Unless I have something
substantive to say, I don't bother Isabell with it. Fools rush
in...etc., etc., etc.
pamela mcelwain-brown
Debra (Deborah/ Isabel / Mary) Hartman wrote:
> >> On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:55:58 -0600, pamela mcelwain-brown
> >> <pam...@primenet.com>
> >oh really, ms phi beta kappa, i presume?
>
> Righto, but you said it, not me.
yes, i did, and that can be verified, as it can for me; you have a degree from where?
(mary's blurb on _OT_ doesn't reference education)
>
>
> >you are comfortable lumping beverly o in
> >with characters of lesser repute.
>
> All hoaxers are pretty much the same. I do feel sorry for her because
> of her personal trials and tribulations.
>
beverly oliver is not 'ALL HOAXERS'. that sort of logic is for a communist country or
the poorly informed, and just what was objectionable in the first post. hopefully,
anyone with a brain would take the time to read her book 'nighmare in dallas', examine
the zapruder, nix and muchmore films, and make up their own minds. and, if they have
the opportunity to spend some time with her, and listen to what she has to say, that
might sway people one way or the other from their own minds, not from the mind of a
vindictive HARPY.
>
> >pourquoi?
>
> Oh, please. Unless you want to converse entirely in French, cut the
> pretention. And if you do, go to a French language newsgroup.
merci, non. 'pourquoi' was used sarcastically. pourquoi so touchy debbieizzymary?
>
>
> >hmmm...could it be that beverly's
> >story threatens elrod's?
>
> In your dreams,
precisely; when one starts to wonder why somebody flies off the handle and rants about
certain witnesses while extoling others to the skies.
>
> >i was hoping you were working from something more
> >conclusive than speculation and personal agenda...
>
> Translate: I am unable to use my common sense and analytical reason,
> so I'll resort to the standard tired insults.
yes, you evidently do have a problem with reason, and have you ever considered
objectivity? you'd have done well in nazi germany, however, where of course you have
heard that reason was formally suspended. or is that maybe where you learned your
tactics?
> >> HAHAHAHAHAHHA! No, Hypen, John Elrod is *exactly* who he says he is,
> >> and the papers are all there to prove it.
> >
> >o really? i don't know a whole lot of people who would agree to that
>
> Sorry your world is so limited. Time to get in touch with reality.
yes, run back into your narrow little elrod-centric world...
>..just maybe
> >one or two, if you don't count the aliases...
that was a reference to the feeble aliases of those who post in pretended independed
support of the lafontaines, debbyizzymary.
pamela
>
>
>