Clay Shaw and the Gestapo
James Crary
officers stationed in Eastern Europe. He was recruited for the CIA and
upon retirement was given a Swiss chalet by Allen Dulles, the CIA
Director retired by Pres. Kennedy.
According to author Twyman, Ferenc Nagy, whom he calls "a fascist
from Hungary" was "under the influence, or part of, the Gehlen network"
(ie. Allen Dulles' secret post-war alliance with surviving monsters from
the Nazi apparatus).
Twyman presents a document on p. 567 in which Clay Shaw is
positively linked to Permindex Corporation, for which Nagy was
President. Nagy was a Nazi collaborator living in Dallas at the time of
the assassination.
The photograph used of Gehlen makes crystal clear what an unsavory
character he was, the vampiric demeanor and the Gestapo uniform make one
shudder.
This is unforgettable research, when one realizes that Allen
Dulles was displaced by Kennedy, an ominous signal to J. Edgar Hoover,
and that Allen Dulles sat on the Warren Commission.
Isn't the silence of Dulles and Hoover towards the evidence that
Oswald had been sheep-dipped (made to look like a leftist and
impersonated) sufficiently incriminating to constitute a kind of
criminal perjury or complicity?
www.inergy.com/crary : deafjim (james macryland crary)
Dreitzes
>From: dea...@webtv.net (James Crary)
>Date: 1/29/99 12:14 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <2339-36B...@newsd-144.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>
> Reinhard Gehlen has been identified as one of the top Gestapo
>officers stationed in Eastern Europe. He was recruited for the CIA and
>upon retirement was given a Swiss chalet by Allen Dulles, the CIA
>Director retired by Pres. Kennedy.
> According to author Twyman, Ferenc Nagy, whom he calls "a fascist
>from Hungary" was "under the influence, or part of, the Gehlen network"
>(ie. Allen Dulles' secret post-war alliance with surviving monsters from
>the Nazi apparatus).
> Twyman presents a document on p. 567 in which Clay Shaw is
>positively linked to Permindex Corporation, for which Nagy was
>President.
******************************************************************
Here we go again. All right, I got my helmet on.
James, Clay Shaw never denied being on the board of directors. How many times
do I have to post this stuff? Permindex was a subsidiary of Centro Mondiale
Commerciale.
Shaw told *Penthouse* magazine, "Back in 1959 or 1960, a young Italian came to
see me in New Orleans and told me about a world trade center that was being
planned in Rome. The idea was to have one place where buyers coming into the
Common Market area would find all the Common Market countries represented in
one center. He wanted my advice and asked me to serve on the board of
directors. I had no objection if it was a legitimate project. I investigated it
and found that the head of it was a man named Imre Nagy, who had been the last
non-Communist premier of Hungary. Some of the other people involved were
Italian senators, journalists, lawyers, and other responsible people. It was
agreed that we would have an exhibit at their center, and they would have one
at the mart here in New Orleans, and we would exchange information and so on. I
didn't mind being on their board, although there was no money involved, but I
would have to go to Rome annually to the board meetings and my way would be
paid, so why not? Then they ran into difficulties, but they finally got the
center opened. It turned out to be either badly planned or badly organized and
it closed very shortly, and that was the last I ever heard of it. I never heard
that it was a CIA operation and I don't know that it was. I'll say this -- it
was a highly unsuccessful operation which is not customary with the CIA. Other
than what I've told you, I know nothing more about the Centro Mondiale
Commerciale. I have never had any connection with the CIA."
(Note: Unlike his trial testimony, Shaw's last statement above cannot be easily
dismissed with semantics; clearly his onetime contact status -- if nothing else
-- constitutes a connection, however innocuous.)
Now, some will laugh at my naivete for believing Shaw, but tell me -- where's
the proof that he was lying?
Virtually everything we know about CMC/Permindex's alleged "dark side" comes
from one uncorroborated article in a left-wing Italian newspaper, *Paese Sera,*
which appears to have been rushed out three days after Shaw's March 1, 1967,
arrest. ("Left wing," incidentally, means something a little different in Italy
than in the US, but I digress.)
The ONLY other story we have about CMC or Permindex comes from alleged former
CIA agent Robert Morrow, who describes (in *First-Hand Knowledge*) flying to
Greece with David Ferrie to transport a cache of arms from a Permindex
warehouse to Houma, Louisiana. This is implied to be the cache later acquired
in Houma by a CIA-backed group of anti-Castro plotters including Ferrie, Gordon
Novel, and Sergio Arcacha Smith -- some of the same cast of characters that
Morrow and others have fingered in the assassination, and whom Jim Garrison
himself had been investigating. Morrow's source regarding the shipment's
destination is CIA officer Tracy Barnes, who, of course, is not alive to
substantiate the author's story. Meanwhile, research done by David Blackburst
-- which I hope he will publish -- suggests that the CIA wasn't behind the
Houma burglary after all, which I must admit even I'M surprised to hear.
The pseudonymous "William Torbitt," believed to be Texas attorney David
Copeland, in a 1970 manuscript entitled *Nomenclature of an Assassination
Cabal,* and published recently as *Nazis, NASA & JFK,* accused Permindex of
complicity in the JFK assassination. "Torbitt's" sole cited source is the
*Paese Sera* article. Ralph Schoenman has written material nearly identical to
"Torbitt's" about Permindex and Clay Shaw. I have to wonder if his source isn't
the same as "Torbitt's." When I asked Jim Hargrove, who posted Schoenman's
article, to cite Schoenman's sources for his allegations against Shaw and
Permindex, I received no response. That was around a month ago.
Jim Marrs repeats the same allegations. Guess what Marrs' sources are?
Repeating rumors does not make them true. Jean Davison -- yes, an LN writer, so
sue me for citing her -- has been trying to verify that Charles De Gaulle even
ACCUSED Permindex of backing OAS assassins, something that we CTs take for
granted MUST be true. But Davison has combed through a ton of literature on De
Gaulle and hasn't found a word about CMC or Permindex.
In other words, there's no evidence that CMC/Permindex was connected to the
CIA, was behind any assassination plots, or had any but the most innocuous
connection to Clay Shaw.
I say for the thousandth time, there was a time when I bought all these
stories, but eventually I realized there just is no evidence to support them
except hearsay far removed from its sources. I am 100% open to evidence that
CMC/Permindex was the evil entity it's rumored to have been, just as I'm 100%
open to evidence that Shaw's connection to them was more than he admitted. I
admit that Shaw lied when he said he had "no connection" to the CIA! I admit
it! It's a lie! We KNOW it's a lie! We KNOW he was at the very least a casual
contact. I NEVER said the man was a saint. I don't know much about the man at
all! I just have never seen any evidence that he was anything but a respectable
businessman and civic leader -- which is more than I can say for Carlos
Marcello, who Jim Garrison said ON TELEVISION was nothing but a "legitimate
businessman."
Here's my point, folks, in an analogy -- Is every member of Coca Cola's board
of directors personally, criminally culpable for acts of brutality by white
South Africans on black South Africans because Coca Cola was doing business
with white South Africa? Do we assume that all board members knew about these
acts of brutality? Do we assume that they all knew when they JOINED the board
of directors that Coca Cola even did business with South Africa at all?
Even if CMC/Permindex IS one day proved to be a bigtime Murder, Inc., why do we
ASSUME that Shaw knew anything about it? What PROOF do we have that what he
told *Penthouse* magazine was untrue?
********************************************************************
Nagy was a Nazi collaborator living in Dallas at the time of
>the assassination.
*******************************************************************
So? There were a LOT of right-wing assholes in Texas.
Here's a great quote from Steve Bochan's interview with FBI agent James Hosty.
Bochan notes that if Jack Ruby and Oswald each acted alone, there were two
"lone nuts" in Dallas that weekend. Hosty says, "There were a lot of nuts in
Dallas, and you can quote me on that."
Hosty's assignment was monitoring right-wing groups; he knows what he's talking
about, even you believe that he has inside knowledge of some part of the
conspiracy, which I personally do not.
*******************************************************************
> The photograph used of Gehlen makes crystal clear what an unsavory
>character he was, the vampiric demeanor and the Gestapo uniform make one
>shudder.
> This is unforgettable research, when one realizes that Allen
>Dulles was displaced by Kennedy, an ominous signal to J. Edgar Hoover,
****************************************************************
This doesn't mean a thing, James. Dulles had been CIA Director for a fraction
of the time Hoover had, and Hoover was considered -- this is TRUE! -- a
national hero -- yes! a HERO! we forget! -- until after his death, where few
people knew Allen Dulles' name. There was no "signal," ominous or otherwise,
for Hoover in Dulles' removal. In fact, Kennedy waited numerous months before
quietly removing Dulles, proof that political considerations were more
important at that time than restructuring the CIA as JFK privately was
threatening.
********************************************************************
>and that Allen Dulles sat on the Warren Commission.
> Isn't the silence of Dulles and Hoover towards the evidence that
>Oswald had been sheep-dipped (made to look like a leftist and
>impersonated) sufficiently incriminating to constitute a kind of
>criminal perjury or complicity?
******************************************************************
If you ask the average CT, yes. If you ask the average LN, no. But Richard
Russell and other members of the WC admitted they were shocked to find out in
'75 that Dulles had withheld info on the CIA-Mob plots from them.
A lot of people consider Dulles an assassination conspirator. I consider him
damage control.
You're not trying to link Shaw and Dulles here, are you? And, again, how do we
know Shaw was lying when he said he didn't know the backgrounds of all those
people? He says he never had to put much effort into the CMC/Permindex gig,
that it was essentially a consultancy with a few perks. What PROOF do we have
that he was lying?
Dave
For my Oswald series featuring the research of John Armstrong, please see:
gopher://freenet.akron.oh.us:70/11/SIGS/JFK/Only/JA/DR
For my article, "Who Speaks for Clay Shaw?" please see:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/shaw1.htm
Leo Sgouros
Dreitzes wrote in message <19990129164244...@ng101.aol. I
>admit that Shaw lied when he said he had "no connection" to the CIA! I
admit
>it! It's a lie! We KNOW it's a lie! We KNOW he was at the very least a
casual
>contact. I NEVER said the man was a saint. I don't know much about the man
at
>all!
>
Huh Dave?
James Crary
which is not customary with the CIA." That shows that he had a lot of
inside knowledge about the CIA.
James Crary
where its tenuousness would have been clear to anyone reading the post,
so it was not a smear. It was not CLAY SHAW WAS THE GESTAPO. It was a
convergence that I explained, an invitation to both sides on a proving
ground.
While I agree with you, Dave, that proving everything about Shaw
may prove nothing, I have to agree with Tony Pitman regarding your
interpretation of the CIA. The CIA obliterated us in the 60s and early
70s with the MK Ultra program (which I personally MAY have been a victim
of...it was certainly something similar that happened to me).
The American Public barely knew the letters C-I-A in 1963, and were
just starting to understand in 67, Certainly very few people knew the
Bay of Pigs was CIA instigated.
Dreitzes
>From: dea...@webtv.net (James Crary)
>Date: 1/29/99 5:32 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <4198-36B...@newsd-144.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>
>Dave, you tell me Shaw said, "it was a highly unsuccessful operation
>which is not customary with the CIA." That shows that he had a lot of
>inside knowledge about the CIA.
>
Dave Reitzes responds:
Au contraire, mon freire! (Did I spell that right?)
Everybody knows that the CIA's covert ops glory days came to a screeching halt
with the Bay of Pigs in 1961. By the time Shaw gave his *Penthouse* interview,
they'd f****d themselves over in Southeast Asia as well. The CIA at the dawn of
the '70s was a shambles. Anyone who knew anything about the CIA knew that the
Agency's squeaky-clean '50s rep was a thing of the past. So if Shaw was a
bigtime spook, by saying what he said he was either giving the CIA a most
ill-advised bit of good PR or he was cracking a joke. And not a bad one at
that.
Now James, here's a question for you: Even if Clay Shaw WAS a bigtime spook --
even if he was King Spook of the Western Hemisphere -- where's the proof he had
anything to do with the Kennedy assassination? Philip Melanson tells us in *Spy
Saga* that New Orleans had a thriving CIA office about which little is known.
Even if hypothetically Shaw was the moral and social equivalent of a James Bond
villain, where's the proof he had ANYTHING to do with the Kennedy
assassination?
It's like the "Clay Bertrand," issue, James. Garrison advocates act as if
proving Shaw to be "Bertrand" would somehow prove everything Jim Garrison ever
said correct. It just doesn't work like that. Even if Shaw were "Clay Bertrand"
AND a bigtime spook AND -- as some allege -- a rabid right-winger -- where's a
single strand of evidence to tie him to the assassination?
Dave
P.S. "Clay Shaw and the Gestapo" -- isn't that getting into smear territory?
Dreitzes
>Date: 1/29/99 7:36 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <19990129193640...@ng104.aol.com>
Here, let me save Jim Hargrove the trouble of responding:
* D * U * H * ! * ! * !
Tony Pitman
Why did you leave out the whole section on the inception of Centro
Mondial and how it originally tried to start up in Switzerland..
They only went to Rome because the Swiss kicked them out.
And Shaw was on the board at the time. What he told Penthouse about
being asked by the young Italian to come to Rome and help out is a
crock.
It's all been posted here before.
And how you can say that the CIA's covert op glory days came to a
screaching halt with the Bay of Pigs is completely off the wall.
They were only just beginning.
Cuba was just a learning experience except that they ignored the
lessons. What they got up to in Vietnam and their secret war in Laos
makes the Bay of Pigs pale by comparison
In fact it was so big that the gusanos were almost forgotten much to
their chagrin.
They would have been if they didn't have all those trained men who were
so handy for ops throughout the rest of Latin America.
Tony
Dreitzes
>Date: 1/29/99 10:17 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <36B279B5...@southern.co.nz>
Please cite your source. I posted the above two months ago. Why haven't you
posted your evidence to the contrary?
>And Shaw was on the board at the time. What he told Penthouse about
>being asked by the young Italian to come to Rome and help out is a
>crock.
How do you know that? Please cite and quote your source that proves Shaw a
liar. Why haven't you done so during the previous two months?
>It's all been posted here before.
Please re-post it. You can hardly expect me to take your word for it,
especially when no one else has re-posted it in the two months I've been
specifically asking for documentation on such things.
>And how you can say that the CIA's covert op glory days came to a
>screaching halt with the Bay of Pigs is completely off the wall.
Really? There are probably a lot of spooks who'd enjoy hearing about that.
>They were only just beginning.
You're going to have a tough time substantiating that, but you're welcome to
try.
>Cuba was just a learning experience except that they ignored the
>lessons. What they got up to in Vietnam and their secret war in Laos
>makes the Bay of Pigs pale by comparison
Uh huh. I sort-a kind-a mention that in my post, don't I? And where did it get
them? Same place it got everyone else who tried to screw around with Southeast
Asia -- nowhere.
>In fact it was so big that the gusanos were almost forgotten much to
>their chagrin.
You seem to be confusing scale with the real issue at hand: success. So what if
the Southeast Asia games were bigger? They were also that much bigger a
disaster. Now relate that to the Shaw quotation in question, which concerns the
CIA being noted for their success -- an image at least a decade out of date.
>They would have been if they didn't have all those trained men who were
>so handy for ops throughout the rest of Latin America.
>
>
>Tony
>
Irrelevant, Tony -- keep your eye on the ball. How does any of that make the
CIA covert ops of the '60s a success?
I'll await your source citations.
Dave
James K. Olmstead
quietly removing Dulles, proof that political considerations were more
important at that time than restructuring the CIA as JFK privately was
threatening.
JFK/RFK gave Dulles until Jan 1962 to "retire" after the Bay of Pigs.
Dulles "retired" in Nov of 1961.
jko
Dreitzes
>Message-id: <1179-36B...@newsd-143.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>
Your post seemed like another postulation of guilt by association, and the
header would seem to imply that.
As for Tony -- with all due respect -- whenever I ask him to cite his sources,
he clams right up. If he has any good primary ones, I wish he'd present them.
MK/ULTRA was defunct well before the '70s began. I'll dig out my source
citations if I must. It was a perfect example of what I'm talking about: It was
abandoned not because it was unethical (ha!), but because in fact it was 100%
unsuccessful. If something similar happened to you, I would need some proof
before I ascribe it to the CIA.
I stand by my original point: The CIA was a joke by the time Shaw gave his
interview, and if he was being serious in what he said, he had a view of the
Agency that was a good ten to fifteen years out of date.
This doesn't prove anything either way, James, but my point is that neither did
your original post claiming Shaw had some 'inside knowledge' to make a
statement like that.
Lee Harvey Oswald said in a tape-recorded interview of August 1963 that the CIA
was "defunct" since Allen Dulles was removed. Do you consider that proof that
Oswald had inside knowledge? A. J. Weberman does (www.weberman.com). I don't. I
merely find it a bizarre remark from a bizarre person.
James Crary
Dreitzes
>Message-id: <3640-36...@newsd-143.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Wow. The last person who called me that was AMETHYST.
Dreitzes
>>From: dea...@webtv.net (James Crary)
>>Date: 1/30/99 11:40 AM Eastern Standard Time
>>Message-id: <3640-36...@newsd-143.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>>
>>You're awfully credulous, Dave.
>>
>>www.inergy.com/crary : deafjim (james macryland crary)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>Wow. The last person who called me that was AMETHYST.
>
>Dave
>
Remember, James -- you're the person who titled a thread, "Clay Shaw was
Bertrand, Proven," then later said you didn't mean it. I told you -- neither
irony nor subtlety play very well on-line. Don't take my word for it -- just
look at how people react to your posts when you make provocative statements or
implications you don't really mean.
Clark Wilkins
Please excuse my interruption.
I feel I probably know as much about Ferenc Nagy and Permindex as anyone
on this site.
Nagy has been identified here as a Nazi, a Hungarian, and a former
premier. He was all of those things. By 1957 he was trying to free
Hungary from Soviet oppression and probably for the purpose of placing it
under his own oppression. In doing so, he sought aid from the US State
Dept (arms) and the Italian royal family which had supported him in his
days as a Nazi. Nagy envisioned smuggling arms into Europe via "trade
marts". He did not then know that Shaw already operated a Trade Mart.
With State Dept knowledge (and probably at the suggestion of CD Jackson)
Nagy called on Shaw and formed Permindex.
The CIA denies Permindex was a front company of theirs but they do admit
to keeping a file on Permindex.
Supporting the CIA's claim, the company was predominately foreign owned.
Contradicting the CIA's claim, however, is the fact that the Tolstoy
Foundation, which obtained CIA funding, was electing directors to the
board in equal proportion to the directors being elected by the Italian
royal family. Again, Nagy's Fascist buddies were elected to the board in
the exact same numbers.
Still others were elected to the board for no apparent political
reason. Many, if not all, of these latter directors were unaware of
Permindex's true purpose and operations. Clay Shaw falls in this group.
Tracking Permindex's bank financing leads back, in part, to the US
and was almost certainly done with CIA knowledge and approval. The CIA
knew Nagy well. Still, there is no indication that the CIA was providing
any leadership role in Permindex. It simply did not interfere with it's
existence. Instead, the evidence indicates that the officers, directors,
and stockholders looked to British intelligence for leadership. The US
and Britain have formed coalitions in the past (WWI, WWII, Korea, and
Iraq) and Permindex appears to have been an Italian, American, and
British coalition organized and led by the British (for purposes I won't
go into here).
As for the claim that Permindex was kicked out of Switzerland, it
was not. Permindex moved out of Switzerland because "someone else" was
kicked out of Switzerland who they were working very closely with and
they needed to maintain that relationship. That's how that story got
started. It's really not that far off base anyway.
I have no idea if DeGaulle ever publicly accused Permindex of trying
to kill him. I doubt it. DeGaulle was provided a report by French SDECE
intelligence which identified Permindex as trying to assassinate him on
behalf of Israel. There is some misinformation and many false
conclusions in this report (It's about as accurate as the President's
Commission on Pornography). It's purpose was more political than
accurate. By way of comparison, it was a French SDECE agent that wrote
"Farewell, America". So you can get idea of the work. Anyway, Charles
DeGaulle did not believe any reports issued to him at the time by the
SDECE so I doubt if he took it seriously.
Did Permindex get involved in assassination? I would say yes. Did
that include JFK's assassination? As a corporate effort I can state with
100% certainty that Permindex was not involved. Some Permindex
connections to Dallas do exist, however, which deserve attention but I
don't think Clay Shaw is amongst them.
That's my 2 bits worth.
Hope it helps.
.Clark
Tony Pitman
British intelligence for leadership you say?
Yet at least two company officers were ex OSS.
Bloomfield who was president I think and Shaw.
Knowing Shaw's history makes it unlikely that
he was one of these unaware directors you are
referring to.
It has been said on this group recently that the
major funding came from Canada. I forget his
name but it was said to be the then head of
Seagrams.
This poster is an anti Zionist Hollocaust
Revisionist also tho and was grinding his own
axe at the same time.
I refer to B. Flat of course.
Tony
Tony Pitman
> >>Subject: Re: Clay Shaw and the Gestapo
> >>From: dea...@webtv.net (James Crary)
> >>Date: 1/30/99 11:40 AM Eastern Standard Time
> >>Message-id: <3640-36...@newsd-143.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
> >>
> >>You're awfully credulous, Dave.
> >>
> >>www.inergy.com/crary : deafjim (james macryland crary)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Wow. The last person who called me that was AMETHYST.
> >
> >Dave
> >
>
> Remember, James -- you're the person who titled a thread, "Clay Shaw
> was
> Bertrand, Proven," then later said you didn't mean it. I told you --
> neither
> irony nor subtlety play very well on-line. Don't take my word for it
> -- just
> look at how people react to your posts when you make provocative
> statements or
> implications you don't really mean.
>
> Dave
IOW you do as you're told and be a good boy James.
This is simple text BTW.
Irony and subtlety are the same here as in any other text.
They are only wasted on those to whom they are usually
wasted.
Tony
Jim Hargrove
>Please excuse my interruption.
No excuses necessary! Thanks for the post.
>I feel I probably know as much about Ferenc Nagy and Permindex as anyone
>on this site.
>Nagy has been identified here as a Nazi, a Hungarian, and a former
>premier. He was all of those things. By 1957 he was trying to free
>Hungary from Soviet oppression and probably for the purpose of placing it
>under his own oppression. In doing so, he sought aid from the US State
>Dept (arms) and the Italian royal family which had supported him in his
>days as a Nazi. Nagy envisioned smuggling arms into Europe via "trade
>marts". He did not then know that Shaw already operated a Trade Mart.
>With State Dept knowledge (and probably at the suggestion of CD Jackson)
>Nagy called on Shaw and formed Permindex.
Nagy announced plans to organize Permindex in Basel, Switzerland on 12/28/56.
U.S. State Dept/Basel Consulate memos on Permindex started just a few days
later. For details on why Nagy's public statements concerning financing of a
trade center/hotel/office complex should have immediately attracted U.S. intel
interest, see below.
>The CIA denies Permindex was a front company of theirs but they do admit
>to keeping a file on Permindex.
>Supporting the CIA's claim, the company was predominately foreign owned.
>Contradicting the CIA's claim, however, is the fact that the Tolstoy
>Foundation, which obtained CIA funding, was electing directors to the
>board in equal proportion to the directors being elected by the Italian
>royal family. Again, Nagy's Fascist buddies were elected to the board in
>the exact same numbers.
> Still others were elected to the board for no apparent political
>reason. Many, if not all, of these latter directors were unaware of
>Permindex's true purpose and operations. Clay Shaw falls in this group.
What evidence is there that Shaw was unaware of the operations of the company
he co-directed? He had three completely different highways leading to the
truth: one through Permindex/CMC channels, the second through USG contacts,
the last through Canadian and European press reports.
> Tracking Permindex's bank financing leads back, in part, to the US
>and was almost certainly done with CIA knowledge and approval. The CIA
>knew Nagy well. Still, there is no indication that the CIA was providing
>any leadership role in Permindex. It simply did not interfere with it's
>existence. Instead, the evidence indicates that the officers, directors,
>and stockholders looked to British intelligence for leadership. The US
>and Britain have formed coalitions in the past (WWI, WWII, Korea, and
>Iraq) and Permindex appears to have been an Italian, American, and
>British coalition organized and led by the British (for purposes I won't
>go into here).
> As for the claim that Permindex was kicked out of Switzerland, it
>was not. Permindex moved out of Switzerland because "someone else" was
>kicked out of Switzerland who they were working very closely with and
>they needed to maintain that relationship. That's how that story got
>started. It's really not that far off base anyway.
Centro Mondiale Commerciale, which shared directors with Permindex, was booted
out of Italy because of reports of its true activities in the Italian press:
the leftist _Paesa Sera_ newspaper and the conservative _De La Sera_. CMC and
Permindex were closely related.
> I have no idea if DeGaulle ever publicly accused Permindex of trying
>to kill him. I doubt it. DeGaulle was provided a report by French SDECE
>intelligence which identified Permindex as trying to assassinate him on
>behalf of Israel. There is some misinformation and many false
>conclusions in this report (It's about as accurate as the President's
>Commission on Pornography). It's purpose was more political than
>accurate. By way of comparison, it was a French SDECE agent that wrote
>"Farewell, America". So you can get idea of the work. Anyway, Charles
>DeGaulle did not believe any reports issued to him at the time by the
>SDECE so I doubt if he took it seriously.
On the other hand, assuming for a moment that French intel got it right, the
whole idea must have seemed absurd to a Wold War II veteran like DeGaulle, who
had seen the liberation efforts of his nation led by the United States.
> Did Permindex get involved in assassination? I would say yes. Did
>that include JFK's assassination? As a corporate effort I can state with
>100% certainty that Permindex was not involved. Some Permindex
>connections to Dallas do exist, however, which deserve attention but I
>don't think Clay Shaw is amongst them.
Thanks very much for this post.
Following is additional information from _Destiny Betrayed_ by James
DiEugenio_. This material is excerpted with the permission of the author.
------------------ BEGIN DESTINY BETRAYED EXCERPT -----------------------
The origins of Permindex and the CMC lie in Switzerland in
1956. On December 28, Ferenc Nagy, former premier of
Hungary, announced his intent to form a "permanent indus-
trial exhibition" named Permindex, in Basel.3
Nagy's past was suspect. Before Hungary became commu-
nist, he was accused of plotting a coup within the then
government. Shortly afterwards, while on vacation in Switz-
erland in 1947, he phoned in his resignation to Budapest,
while arranging his future finances and politics.4 From Eu-
rope, Nagy went to the United States,5 but he never stopped
meddling in European affairs and never lost his interest in
rightwing European politics.
After his announcement in December 1956, Nagy outlined
a large, three-part construction project to include a trade
center, a hotel, and an office center.6 He was unwilling to
reveal the people and firms involved in financing the project,
and denied any American backing. But he dropped the name
of J. Henry Schroder, a New York banker. Schroder denied
having anything to do with the enterprise.7 Nagy then men-
tioned Hans Seligman, a Swiss banker.8 This generated some
controversy, not only because Seligman's bank was not a
major house, but also because he had been accused by both
the U.S. and the U.K. of cooperating with fascists during
World War II.9 Things got worse when it was discovered that
George Mantello was also involved.10 Mantello's real name
was George Mandel. His name brought about attacks in the
Swiss papers against Permindex, its organizers, and the
Swiss government. The Arbeiter-Zeitung accused Mandel of
being a gold profiteer during the war and of working the
Jewish refugee racket. He had done both while holding Sal-
vadoran citizenship and acting as secretary at the El Salvador
Consulate in Geneva. Mandel was a naturalized Swiss citizen
of Eastern European origin, who had aided Nagy in his flight
from Hungary and helped him get established in America."11
The combination of proto-fascist directors and murky fi-
nancing led to an outburst of editorial attacks against Permin-
dex. But the pressure did not induce Nagy to be more forth-
coming about the source of his funds. The enterprise began
to lose both public support and government approval.
At this point, two things happened. In April of 1957, two
local officials interested in getting Permindex approved went
to New Orleans to visit the International Trade Mart.12 By the
next year, the directors of Permindex decided to move their
company to Italy. The same people were involved: Nagy,
Mandel, and Seligman, with one addition, Clay Shaw.13 Shaw
later became associated with CMC, which had been formed
in 1961 by reputed former OSS operative Major Louis
Bloomfield.14 Curiously, CMC also moved to Rome, the next
year.15
Nagy was on the CMC board. Another director was Gutier-
rez di Spadaforo, a wealthy Italian with considerable inter-
ests in oil and the arms trade. He had worked in Benito
Mussolini's fascist administration, and was related through
marriage to Hjalmar Schacht, the notorious economic wizard
whose fiscal policies had financed Hitler's Third Reich and
who was tried at Nuremburg for war crimes, though later
released. Another director was Giuseppe Zigiotti, president
of the Fascist National Association for Militia Arms.
CMC's board was representative of the paramilitary right
in Europe. It formed a small cross-section of the aging roy-
alists with whom Shaw liked to hobnob on his European
jaunts and whose names and phone numbers were kept in his
address book.16 The organization was described by one writer
as 'a shell of superficiality ... composed of channels through
which money flowed back and forth, with no one knowing
the sources or the destination of the liquid assets."17
In 1967, the Canadian newspaper Le Devoir, following up
on an extraordinary expose of CMC that had just appeared in
Italy, noted:18
[H]ere is where the affair assumes stranger and stran-
ger characteristics. It has just been learned that the name
of Clay Shaw was found among that of the eleven direc-
tors of a company, which up until 1962 had its headquar-
ters in Montreal ... in Rome it is known as the Centro
Mondiale de Commerciale....
In Italy, when the papers--both the liberal Paesa Sera and
the conservative De La Sera--exposed CMC's personnel,
practices, and policies again, as in Switzerland, the company
was swept out of the country. It then found corporate head-
quarters more sympathetic to its fascist leanings in Johannes-
burg, South Africa.19
CMC was described in some detail in the series of articles
in Paesa Sera that led to its expulsion from Italy. Here are
two excerpts:20
Among its possible involvements is that the Centro
was a creature of the CIA ... set up as a cover for the
transfer of CIA ... funds in Italy for illegal political-es-
pionage activities. It still remains to clear up the pres-
ence on the administrative board of the CMC of Mr. Clay
Shaw....
It is a fact that the CMC is nevertheless the point of
contact for a number of persons who, in certain respects,
have ties whose common denominator is an anti-commu-
nism so strong that it would swallow up all those in the
world who have fought for decent relations between East
and West, including Kennedy.
Permindex was of the same order. Reportedly, it was incor-
porated in 1958 by Bloomfield, then residing in Montreal,
and Nagy. Both Bloomfield and Nagy were on the board of
Permindex along with Shaw. The Italian press revealed that
it had been accused of channeling funds to the Secret Army
Organization (OAS), a clandestine paramilitary group op-
posed to President de Gaulle's support for Algerian inde-
pendence.21 Later, the OAS attempted to assassinate de
Gaulle.22
This is intriguing, to say the least. First, we saw earlier that
Kennedy had been one of the leading American sympathizers
with Algerian independence.23 Second, in the 1961 Houma
arms raid (see Chapter 3), the arms heisted and then trans-
ported to Guy Banister's office were CIA-stockpiled weap-
ons on loan to the OAS.24 Third, in tracing the money used
to finance the de Gaulle assassination plots, French intelli-
gence discovered that about $200,000 in secret funds had
been sent to Permindex accounts in the Banque de la Credit
Internationale. In 1962, Guy Banister had dispatched to Paris
a lawyer friend, Maurice Gatlin, a member of Banister's
Anti-Communist League of the Caribbean, with a suitcase
full of money for the OAS, reportedly around $200,000.25
Finally, the French authorities accused the CIA of encourag-
ing French generals to try to get rid of de Gaulle, a charge
the Agency has never convincingly denied.26
What makes the Permindex connection even more fascinat-
ing is that four of its directors are knit into the events in
Dallas or surrounding the assassination. Besides Shaw, there
is Nagy, who lived in Dallas at the time.27 Jean DeMenil of
Schiumberger Corporation, which owned the ammunition
dump at Houma raided by Ferrie and Novel was also on the
board. Another director was Paul Raigorodsky, a millionaire
Texas oilman and a prominent figure in the Dallas White
Russian community, who was a friend of George DeMohren-
schildt and a director of the Tolstoy Foundation, a CIA front
that helped Eastern European exiles get to America.28 The
Tolstoy Foundation, which aimed to use those exiles against
the Soviet Union, was the brainchild of Reinhard Gehlen.29
How did Shaw get involved with this bunch? Why would
a "Wilsonian-FDR-Kennedy liberal" serve on boards with
groups of paramilitary, rightwing fascists involved with po-
litical assassinations? In 1977, a CIA document disclosed
Shaw's long association with the Agency30 (Shaw died in
1974). This document had been prepared in 1967 in response
to queries by Ramsey Clark and the Justice Department,
which was nervous about Garrison's investigation and what
it might reveal about Shaw. The document disclosed his ties
to the Agency during his tenure at the International Trade
Mart and went even further.
Shaw had been a CIA contact as far back as 1949. Accord-
ing to Fletcher Prouty, the Agency favors using people in the
import-export business because it allows them to fly around
the world making contacts while having a legitimate com-
mercial cover.31 Shaw was filing reports from countries like
East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Peru, Argentina, and Nicara-
gua. Between 1949 and 1956, Shaw filed thirty reports with
the Agency.
And why did he begin filing those reports? Because there
is evidence that during World War II, Shaw, like Bloomfield,
was in the OSS (he may have been liaison officer to the
headquarters of Winston Churchill).32
[. . . . ]
NOTES:
3. The material on Permindex in Switzerland is based on a series of
previously classified State Department documents obtained through a Freedom of
Information Act request by Bud Fensterwald in November 1982. The date of this
particular memorandum is January 2, 1957. This means that almost immediately
after Nagy's announcement, the American Consulate in Basel was dispatching
reports on Permindex to Washington. If it were merely a trade organization,
what was the need to report on it within a few days of the announcement of its
formation, long before it was actually established?
4. Flammonde, p.217.
5. Ibid.
6. State Department memorandum, January 15, 1957.
7. Ibid., October 8, 1957. Nagy's slip and Schroder's quick denial should
have flagged the attention of anyone privy both to the machinations of the CIA
and to the career of Allen Dulles. When Dulles's law firm-Sullivan and
Cromwell-was still dealing with the Nazis in the late 1930s, the bank he used
was Schroder's (see Higham, p.22). When Dulles became DCI, the same bank was a
repository for a $50 million contingency fund he controlled. Schroder was a
welcome conduit because his bank benefitted from the CIA coups in Iran (1953)
and Guatemala (1954) (see Hinckle and Turner, p.79). For a fascinating history
of Dulles's career and his incredibly extensive dealiugs with big business and
government power, see Lisagor and Lipsius, passini. For a look at how the
Dulles brothers worked with the Nazis, see Chapter 8. To see how Sullivan and
Cromwell benefitted from the war effort, see Chapter 9.
8. Ibid., January 15, 1957.
9. Ibid., February 1, 1957, and November 7, 1958.
10. Ibid., January 15, 1957.
11. Ibid., April 9, 1958. Mandel threatened to sue ArbeiterZeitung for libel.
He then dropped the idea. The editors commented, "Too bad. We would have
heard some great things at the trial." Flammonde, p.216.
12. State Departnaent memorandum, April 9, 1958. This document is partly
censored, in the section dealing with the visit inside the ITM.
13. State Department memoranda, July 18, 1958, and November 7, 1958.
Information about the visit to New Orleans is censored, but Shaw is mentioned
as a board member of Permindex.
14. Flammonde, p.219; Garrison, On the Trail, p.87.
15. Ibid., p.215.
16. Ibid., p.224; Garrison, On the Trail, p.146. There is a facsimile of the
book at the Assassinations Archives and Research Center in Washington.
17. Flammonde, p.216.
18. Le Devoir, March 16, 1967, quoted in Flammonde, p.218.
19. Flammonde, p.219. One of the directors of CMC, Mario Ceravalo, inno-
cently asked for an accounting of its activities. When be got no response, he
resigned and asked tbat the company be liquidated. Re wrote a letter to Paesa
Sera in March 1967. He said he resigned because "it was no longer possible to
understand the sources of great sums of money obtained abroad by Mr. Mantello,
and the real destination of the money." Ibid., p.220. When author Paris
Flammonde called the Italian consul in New York to inquire about CMC, he did
not receive an answer the first three times he called. The fourth time the
answer was, "Try the American Embassy [in Rome], I can't help you any
further." Ibid., p. 224.
20. Both quotes are in Flammonde, p.221. The Paesa Sera series ran on March
4, 11, 12, 14, 16, and 18, 1967. See also Faenza and Becker, pp.128, 321, 326,
330, 389; and see Faenza and Fini, passim.
21. Flammonde, p. 221; and Garrison, On the Trail, pp.89-90. When Bud
Fensterwald tried to obtain all Agency documents concerning Permindex, he was
told that the CIA had only one Agency-originated document, relating to
Permindex when it was in Basel. They would not release it for reasons of
national security and to protect sources. CIA letter to Fensterwald, March 30,
1983.
22. CMC and Permindex appear linked to the shadowy "stay-behind" opera-
tions launched by the OSS/CIA and allied groups after World War II to serve as
fronts to attack leftist groups. A major component of this terror network
appears to have been Operation Gladio, based in Italy. Some of these groups
were set up by former OSS and CIA operative James Jesus Angleton. Following
Dulles's lead he began them before the war was over. For a discussion of
Gladio, see Edward S. Herman, "Hiding Western Terror," Lies Of Our Times,
Number 18 (June 1991), pp.21-22.
One of the assassination attempts against de Gaulle was the subject of the
film Day of the Jackal. Reinhard Gehlen, then chief of West German
Intelligence, supported the OAS in its bitter conflict with de Gaulle.
23. See Chapter 2. Gary Shaw and Bud Fensterwald have explored the possi-
bility of OAS involvement in the assassination. In a 1981 paper, "A Possible
French Connection," they revealed that OAS terrorist Jean Souctre was report-
edly in Dallas on November22, 1963. So was fellow OAS renegade Miebel Roux.
Souetre denies it and says a French intelligence agent Michel Mertz may have
been there using his name. The FBI actually questioned a Dr. Alderson of
Houston who knew Souetre from his military service in France. The agent
implied that Souetre may have been a suspect in the assassination.
Souetre is interesting because the OAS tried to kill French President de
Gaulle numerous times during the Algerian War, and they hated Kennedy also,
for his support of Algerian independence. If Souetre, Roux, or Mertz were not
involved in the plot, they may have been called to Dallas to serve as one of
the "false fronts" that figure 50 clearly in the conspiracy. See Chapter 14
for a discussion of this phenomenon. See also, Garrison, On the Trail, pp.
283-289. For a summary of the Shaw-Fensterwald essay, see Hurt, pp.414-419.
24. Garrison, On the Trail, p.90.
25. Marrs, pp.499-500. Gatlin, as Garrison was to discover, was later thrown
or fell from a Panama hotel window or balcony.
Paris Flammonde was one of the first to unearth the details of Shaw's connec-
tions to Permindex and CMC. He was in contact with Garrison throughout the
period from Shaw's arrest through the trial. I asked him why the DA did not
use this material at the trial. He replied that Garrison believed it did not
touch directly on the Dallas-New Orleans events. This is questionable, but
even so, Shaw's European connections would have had some effect on his
carefully constructed image. Author interview with Flammonde, February 9,
1992.
26. Tully, Chapter 4, passim.
27. Garrison, On the Trail, p.89; Brussell, p.109.
28. Evica, p.296.
29. Brussell, p.104.
30. Hurt, p.282. The memo, entitled "Garrison Investigation: Queries from
Justice Department," September 28, 1967, is noted in Hurt, p. 495, n. 110.
31. Prouty, pp.337-39.
32. Marrs, p.498. Flammonde mentions Shaw at Churchill's headquarters on
p.76. He was actually dining there.
-------------------- END DESTINY BETRAYED EXCERPT -----------------------
_Destiny Betrayed_ is copyright © 1992 by James DiEugenio. The excerpt
reprinted here appears with Mr. DiEugenio's permission.
--Jim Hargrove
Dreitzes
>Date: 1/30/99 3:28 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <78vq24$41hi$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
>
>
>Please excuse my interruption.
>I feel I probably know as much about Ferenc Nagy and Permindex as anyone
>on this site.
>Nagy has been identified here as a Nazi, a Hungarian, and a former
>premier. He was all of those things. By 1957 he was trying to free
>Hungary from Soviet oppression and probably for the purpose of placing it
>under his own oppression. In doing so, he sought aid from the US State
>Dept (arms) and the Italian royal family which had supported him in his
>days as a Nazi. Nagy envisioned smuggling arms into Europe via "trade
>marts". He did not then know that Shaw already operated a Trade Mart.
>With State Dept knowledge (and probably at the suggestion of CD Jackson)
>Nagy called on Shaw and formed Permindex.
>to keeping a file on Permindex.
>Supporting the CIA's claim, the company was predominately foreign owned.
>Contradicting the CIA's claim, however, is the fact that the Tolstoy
>Foundation, which obtained CIA funding, was electing directors to the
>board in equal proportion to the directors being elected by the Italian
>royal family. Again, Nagy's Fascist buddies were elected to the board in
>the exact same numbers.
> Still others were elected to the board for no apparent political
>reason. Many, if not all, of these latter directors were unaware of
>Permindex's true purpose and operations. Clay Shaw falls in this group.
>and was almost certainly done with CIA knowledge and approval. The CIA
>knew Nagy well. Still, there is no indication that the CIA was providing
>any leadership role in Permindex. It simply did not interfere with it's
>existence. Instead, the evidence indicates that the officers, directors,
>and stockholders looked to British intelligence for leadership. The US
>and Britain have formed coalitions in the past (WWI, WWII, Korea, and
>Iraq) and Permindex appears to have been an Italian, American, and
>British coalition organized and led by the British (for purposes I won't
>go into here).
> As for the claim that Permindex was kicked out of Switzerland, it
>was not. Permindex moved out of Switzerland because "someone else" was
>kicked out of Switzerland who they were working very closely with and
>they needed to maintain that relationship. That's how that story got
>started. It's really not that far off base anyway.
>to kill him. I doubt it. DeGaulle was provided a report by French SDECE
>intelligence which identified Permindex as trying to assassinate him on
>behalf of Israel. There is some misinformation and many false
>conclusions in this report (It's about as accurate as the President's
>Commission on Pornography). It's purpose was more political than
>accurate. By way of comparison, it was a French SDECE agent that wrote
>"Farewell, America". So you can get idea of the work. Anyway, Charles
>DeGaulle did not believe any reports issued to him at the time by the
>SDECE so I doubt if he took it seriously.
>that include JFK's assassination? As a corporate effort I can state with
>100% certainty that Permindex was not involved. Some Permindex
>connections to Dallas do exist, however, which deserve attention but I
>don't think Clay Shaw is amongst them.
> Hope it helps.
>
>
>.Clark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
This is a very interesting and informative post, Clark, but I wish you'd cite
your sources.
Dave Reitzes
Jim Hargrove
>Please excuse my interruption.
No excuses necessary! Thanks for the post.
>I feel I probably know as much about Ferenc Nagy and Permindex as anyone
>on this site.
>Nagy has been identified here as a Nazi, a Hungarian, and a former
>premier. He was all of those things. By 1957 he was trying to free
>Hungary from Soviet oppression and probably for the purpose of placing it
>under his own oppression. In doing so, he sought aid from the US State
>Dept (arms) and the Italian royal family which had supported him in his
>days as a Nazi. Nagy envisioned smuggling arms into Europe via "trade
>marts". He did not then know that Shaw already operated a Trade Mart.
>With State Dept knowledge (and probably at the suggestion of CD Jackson)
>Nagy called on Shaw and formed Permindex.
Nagy announced plans to organize Permindex in Basel, Switzerland on 12/28/56.
U.S. State Dept/Basel Consulate memos on Permindex started just a few days
later. For details on why Nagy's public statements concerning financing of a
trade center/hotel/office complex should have immediately attracted U.S. intel
interest, see below.
>The CIA denies Permindex was a front company of theirs but they do admit
>to keeping a file on Permindex.
>Supporting the CIA's claim, the company was predominately foreign owned.
>Contradicting the CIA's claim, however, is the fact that the Tolstoy
>Foundation, which obtained CIA funding, was electing directors to the
>board in equal proportion to the directors being elected by the Italian
>royal family. Again, Nagy's Fascist buddies were elected to the board in
>the exact same numbers.
> Still others were elected to the board for no apparent political
>reason. Many, if not all, of these latter directors were unaware of
>Permindex's true purpose and operations. Clay Shaw falls in this group.
What evidence is there that Shaw was unaware of the operations of the company
he co-directed? He had three completely different highways leading to the
truth: one through Permindex/CMC channels, the second through USG contacts,
the last through Canadian and European press reports.
> Tracking Permindex's bank financing leads back, in part, to the US
>and was almost certainly done with CIA knowledge and approval. The CIA
>knew Nagy well. Still, there is no indication that the CIA was providing
>any leadership role in Permindex. It simply did not interfere with it's
>existence. Instead, the evidence indicates that the officers, directors,
>and stockholders looked to British intelligence for leadership. The US
>and Britain have formed coalitions in the past (WWI, WWII, Korea, and
>Iraq) and Permindex appears to have been an Italian, American, and
>British coalition organized and led by the British (for purposes I won't
>go into here).
> As for the claim that Permindex was kicked out of Switzerland, it
>was not. Permindex moved out of Switzerland because "someone else" was
>kicked out of Switzerland who they were working very closely with and
>they needed to maintain that relationship. That's how that story got
>started. It's really not that far off base anyway.
Centro Mondiale Commerciale, which shared directors with Permindex, was booted
out of Italy because of reports of its true activities in the Italian press:
the leftist _Paesa Sera_ newspaper and the conservative _De La Sera_. CMC and
Permindex were closely related.
> I have no idea if DeGaulle ever publicly accused Permindex of trying
>to kill him. I doubt it. DeGaulle was provided a report by French SDECE
>intelligence which identified Permindex as trying to assassinate him on
>behalf of Israel. There is some misinformation and many false
>conclusions in this report (It's about as accurate as the President's
>Commission on Pornography). It's purpose was more political than
>accurate. By way of comparison, it was a French SDECE agent that wrote
>"Farewell, America". So you can get idea of the work. Anyway, Charles
>DeGaulle did not believe any reports issued to him at the time by the
>SDECE so I doubt if he took it seriously.
On the other hand, assuming for a moment that French intel got it right, the
whole idea must have seemed absurd to a Wold War II veteran like DeGaulle, who
had seen the liberation efforts of his nation led by the United States.
> Did Permindex get involved in assassination? I would say yes. Did
>that include JFK's assassination? As a corporate effort I can state with
>100% certainty that Permindex was not involved. Some Permindex
>connections to Dallas do exist, however, which deserve attention but I
>don't think Clay Shaw is amongst them.
Thanks very much for this post.
Dreitzes
>From: harg...@enteract.com (Jim Hargrove)
>Date: 2/1/99 4:49 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <36b5783...@news.enteract.com>
Have you ever heard of the concept of the burden of proof? You are the one
accusing Shaw of vague evildoings -- it's your responsibility to prove what you
say; it shouldn't be anyone's responsibility to prove his innocence. YOU must
prove he was "Clay Bertrand." YOU must prove he signed "Clay Bertrand" on his
arrest record. YOU must prove Perry Russo's story is true. YOU must prove that
Shaw was a CIA agent. YOU must prove that CMC/Permindex was a CIA front and/or
involved in assassinations. YOU must prove that Shaw was aware of this and/or
actively involved. YOU must prove he had anything to do with the framing of Lee
Harvey Oswald and/or the assassination of President Kennedy.
YOU haven't even come close to proving any one of the above.
Clark Wilkins
>
>Clark Wilkins wrote:
>
>> Please excuse my interruption.
>> anyone
>> on this site.
>> Nagy has been identified here as a Nazi, a Hungarian, and a former
>> premier. He was all of those things. By 1957 he was trying to free
>> Hungary from Soviet oppression and probably for the purpose of
placing
>> it
>> under his own oppression. In doing so, he sought aid from the US
>> State
>> Dept (arms) and the Italian royal family which had supported him in
>> his
>> days as a Nazi. Nagy envisioned smuggling arms into Europe via
"trade
>>
>> marts". He did not then know that Shaw already operated a Trade Mart.
>>
>> With State Dept knowledge (and probably at the suggestion of CD
>> Jackson)
>> Nagy called on Shaw and formed Permindex.
>> The CIA denies Permindex was a front company of theirs but they do
>> admit
>> to keeping a file on Permindex.
>> Supporting the CIA's claim, the company was predominately foreign
>> owned.
>> Contradicting the CIA's claim, however, is the fact that the Tolstoy
>> Foundation, which obtained CIA funding, was electing directors to the
>> board in equal proportion to the directors being elected by the
>> Italian
>> royal family. Again, Nagy's Fascist buddies were elected to the
board
>> in
>> the exact same numbers.
>> Still others were elected to the board for no apparent political
>> reason. Many, if not all, of these latter directors were unaware of
>> Permindex's true purpose and operations. Clay Shaw falls in this
>> group.
>> I have no idea if DeGaulle ever publicly accused Permindex of
>> trying
>> to kill him. I doubt it. DeGaulle was provided a report by French
>> SDECE
>> intelligence which identified Permindex as trying to assassinate him
>> on
>> behalf of Israel. There is some misinformation and many false
>> conclusions in this report (It's about as accurate as the President's
>> Commission on Pornography). It's purpose was more political than
>> accurate. By way of comparison, it was a French SDECE agent that
>> wrote
>> "Farewell, America". So you can get idea of the work. Anyway,
>> Charles
>> DeGaulle did not believe any reports issued to him at the time by the
>> SDECE so I doubt if he took it seriously.
>> Did Permindex get involved in assassination? I would say yes.
>> Did
>> that include JFK's assassination? As a corporate effort I can state
>> with
>> 100% certainty that Permindex was not involved. Some Permindex
>> connections to Dallas do exist, however, which deserve attention but
I
>>
>> don't think Clay Shaw is amongst them.
>> That's my 2 bits worth.
>> Hope it helps.
>>
>> .Clark
>
>British intelligence for leadership you say?
>Yet at least two company officers were ex OSS.
>Bloomfield who was president I think and Shaw.
Yes. Both were involved with the OSS. Bloomfield was on loan to US
intelligence from British intelligence whereas Shaw was on loan from OSS
to British intelligence, a sort of "trade" you might say.
It is probably not "coincidence" that these two traded US/British agents
were then placed on Permindex. As a joint coalition intelligence effort
between the US and Britain, these two guys were natural selections.
However, it was Britain's Bloomfield that ran Permindex, not Shaw, so the
corporate leadership authority rested with the British.
>Knowing Shaw's history makes it unlikely that
>he was one of these unaware directors you are
>referring to.
Agreed. The CIA had used Shaw for collecting information in the past and
we know that the CIA was collecting info on Permindex. I would be
greatly surprised if Shaw was not one of the CIA's sources for the info
in its files on Permindex.
So how "unwary" was he?
Probably not very unwary.
Yet he is still not a member of the three primary voting blocks on the
board and they did need someone who could run trade marts on the board
and Shaw fits that bill.
After all, somebody had to do it.
But, yes, I see and respect your point. They didn't just select "any"
guy to run the trade marts. They selected Clay Shaw, someone they could
trust.
>It has been said on this group recently that the
>major funding came from Canada. I forget his
>name but it was said to be the then head of
>Seagrams.
Sam Bronfman.
His corporate empire funded Permindex.
But he didn't run it and had no vote on the board.
The British had almost complete control of Permindex and used Bronfman to
fund it.
By creating Permindex three anti-communist groups were brought together,
the Italian royal family, the Hungarian Fascists, and the Solidarity
movement. The object was to fight communism in Italy and Soviet
oppression in Hungary while using Solidarity expertise on Soviet
intentions.
I'm sure CIA knew all about it and approved and probably even recommended
Shaw to CD Jackson to put on the board.
>This poster is an anti Zionist Hollocaust
>Revisionist also tho and was grinding his own
>axe at the same time.
>I refer to B. Flat of course.
>
>
>Tony
I know of whom you refer.
None of what he says has any validity.
I don't mean that as an insult to him but he is working on incomplete
information which does not justify his conclusions.
.Clark
Clark Wilkins
>
>On 30 Jan 1999 20:28:52 GMT, NNX...@prodigy.com (Clark Wilkins) wrote:
>
>>Please excuse my interruption.
>
>No excuses necessary! Thanks for the post.
>
>>Supporting the CIA's claim, the company was predominately foreign owned.
>>Contradicting the CIA's claim, however, is the fact that the Tolstoy
>>Foundation, which obtained CIA funding, was electing directors to the
>>board in equal proportion to the directors being elected by the Italian
>>royal family. Again, Nagy's Fascist buddies were elected to the board
in
>>the exact same numbers.
>> Still others were elected to the board for no apparent political
>>reason. Many, if not all, of these latter directors were unaware of
>>Permindex's true purpose and operations. Clay Shaw falls in this group.
>
>What evidence is there that Shaw was unaware of the operations of the
company
>he co-directed?
No evidence. In fact it is easier to demonstrate that he was aware than
it is to demonstrate he was "unaware". Yet I don't have evidence he
participated in the company's "shady" operations. I admit it's a fine
line, but Shaw is a collector of economic information (Such as when
Shinley posted his 1958 speech on Soviet aluminum prices) versus a
plotter of gov't intrigue.
He had three completely different highways leading to the
>truth: one through Permindex/CMC channels, the second through USG
contacts,
>the last through Canadian and European press reports.
>
<SNIP>
>
>Centro Mondiale Commerciale, which shared directors with Permindex, was
booted
>out of Italy because of reports of its true activities in the Italian
press:
>the leftist _Paesa Sera_ newspaper and the conservative _De La Sera_.
CMC and
>Permindex were closely related.
They were more than just closely related. CMC bought Permindex in 1961.
CMC was caught funding activities directed against the Communist Party
(CP) in Italy, something a foreign company is not allowed to do.
CIA records show that the CIA was funding actions against the CP in Italy
at the very time CMC was caught.
<SNIP>
>
>Thanks very much for this post.
>
>Following is additional information from _Destiny Betrayed_ by James
>DiEugenio_. This material is excerpted with the permission of the
author.
>
>
>------------------ BEGIN DESTINY BETRAYED EXCERPT -----------------------
>
>
>The origins of Permindex and the CMC lie in Switzerland in
>1956. On December 28, Ferenc Nagy, former premier of
>Hungary, announced his intent to form a "permanent indus-
>trial exhibition" named Permindex, in Basel.3
>
This follows the unsuccessful Nov/Dec 1956 Hungarian revolution in which
the Hungarians, after listening to CIA Radio Free Europe broadscasts,
threw the Soviets out - only to have them return with tanks. It got real
ugly after that.
<SNIP>
>After his announcement in December 1956, Nagy outlined
>a large, three-part construction project to include a trade
>center, a hotel, and an office center.6 He was unwilling to
>reveal the people and firms involved in financing the project,
>and denied any American backing. But he dropped the name
>of J. Henry Schroder, a New York banker. Schroder denied
>having anything to do with the enterprise.7 Nagy then men-
>tioned Hans Seligman, a Swiss banker.8 This generated some
>controversy, not only because Seligman's bank was not a
>major house, but also because he had been accused by both
>the U.S. and the U.K. of cooperating with fascists during
>World War II.9 Things got worse when it was discovered that
>George Mantello was also involved.10 Mantello's real name
>was George Mandel. His name brought about attacks in the
>Swiss papers against Permindex, its organizers, and the
>Swiss government. The Arbeiter-Zeitung accused Mandel of
>being a gold profiteer during the war and of working the
>Jewish refugee racket. He had done both while holding Sal-
>vadoran citizenship and acting as secretary at the El Salvador
>Consulate in Geneva. Mandel was a naturalized Swiss citizen
>of Eastern European origin, who had aided Nagy in his flight
>from Hungary and helped him get established in America."11
This is the Hungarian Fascist connection to Permindex I mentioned in my
post.
<SNIP>
>At this point, two things happened. In April of 1957, two
>local officials interested in getting Permindex approved went
>to New Orleans to visit the International Trade Mart.
They were not "local". One of the two men was Ferenc Nagy. Nagy had
gone to see CD Jackson (Who oversaw the CIA's Radio Free Europe for
Eisenhower) to complain about the lack of CIA and US support to back the
Hungarian revolution. It was after seeing Jackson that Nagy went to New
Orleans where he met with Clay Shaw.
12 By the
>next year, the directors of Permindex decided to move their
>company to Italy. The same people were involved: Nagy,
>Mandel, and Seligman, with one addition, Clay Shaw.13 Shaw
>later became associated with CMC, which had been formed
>in 1961 by reputed former OSS operative Major Louis
>Bloomfield.14 Curiously, CMC also moved to Rome, the next
>year.15
CMC purchased Permindex in 1961. Shaw approved the sale and was a made a
director of the combined boards.
It is true that Bloomfield was former OSS but he had been loaned to them
by British intelligence in order to set up the FBI's office in Mexico
City. It is interesting to note that Bloomfield's WWII Mexico City "spy"
operation turned up George deMohrenschildt.
>
>Nagy was on the CMC board. Another director was Gutier-
>rez di Spadaforo, a wealthy Italian with considerable inter-
>ests in oil and the arms trade. He had worked in Benito
>Mussolini's fascist administration, and was related through
>marriage to Hjalmar Schacht, the notorious economic wizard
>whose fiscal policies had financed Hitler's Third Reich and
>who was tried at Nuremburg for war crimes, though later
>released. Another director was Giuseppe Zigiotti, president
>of the Fascist National Association for Militia Arms.
Hjalmar Schact became acquainted with Shaw via Permindex.
>CMC's board was representative of the paramilitary right
>in Europe. It formed a small cross-section of the aging roy-
>alists with whom Shaw liked to hobnob on his European
>jaunts and whose names and phone numbers were kept in his
>address book.
The "royalists" mentioned here are the Italian royal family who was
opposed to the CP in Italy for the obvious reason of self preservation.
16 The organization was described by one writer
>as 'a shell of superficiality ... composed of channels through
>which money flowed back and forth, with no one knowing
>the sources or the destination of the liquid assets."17
One director, when he requested an audit of where this money was coming
from, resigned when his request was refused.
>In 1967, the Canadian newspaper Le Devoir, following up
>on an extraordinary expose of CMC that had just appeared in
>Italy, noted:18
>
> [H]ere is where the affair assumes stranger and stran-
> ger characteristics. It has just been learned that the name
> of Clay Shaw was found among that of the eleven direc-
> tors of a company, which up until 1962 had its headquar-
> ters in Montreal ... in Rome it is known as the Centro
> Mondiale de Commerciale....
>
>In Italy, when the papers--both the liberal Paesa Sera and
>the conservative De La Sera--exposed CMC's personnel,
>practices, and policies again, as in Switzerland, the company
>was swept out of the country.
This part is incorrect. Permindex was not kicked out of Switzerland.
Jacque Soustelle had been forced out of Switzerland and Permindex moved
with him. Small difference but possibly important when defending
yourself against LNers.
It then found corporate head-
>quarters more sympathetic to its fascist leanings in Johannes-
>burg, South Africa.19
>
>CMC was described in some detail in the series of articles
>in Paesa Sera that led to its expulsion from Italy. Here are
>two excerpts:20
>
> Among its possible involvements is that the Centro
> was a creature of the CIA ... set up as a cover for the
> transfer of CIA ... funds in Italy for illegal political-es-
> pionage activities. It still remains to clear up the pres-
> ence on the administrative board of the CMC of Mr. Clay
> Shaw....
>
> It is a fact that the CMC is nevertheless the point of
> contact for a number of persons who, in certain respects,
> have ties whose common denominator is an anti-commu-
> nism so strong that it would swallow up all those in the
> world who have fought for decent relations between East
> and West, including Kennedy.
>
>Permindex was of the same order. Reportedly, it was incor-
>porated in 1958 by Bloomfield, then residing in Montreal,
>and Nagy. Both Bloomfield and Nagy were on the board of
>Permindex along with Shaw.
I believe this is incorrect. Bloomfield did not become associated with
Permindex until 1961. BTW, British intelligence did not become involved
with Permindex either until 1961.
The Italian press revealed that
>it had been accused of channeling funds to the Secret Army
>Organization (OAS), a clandestine paramilitary group op-
>posed to President de Gaulle's support for Algerian inde-
>pendence.21 Later, the OAS attempted to assassinate de
>Gaulle.22
I have connected Permindex to two plots to kill DeGaulle. This was the
purpose of the British led coalition.
>This is intriguing, to say the least. First, we saw earlier that
>Kennedy had been one of the leading American sympathizers
>with Algerian independence.23 Second, in the 1961 Houma
>arms raid (see Chapter 3), the arms heisted and then trans-
>ported to Guy Banister's office were CIA-stockpiled weap-
>ons on loan to the OAS.24 Third, in tracing the money used
>to finance the de Gaulle assassination plots, French intelli-
>gence discovered that about $200,000 in secret funds had
>been sent to Permindex accounts in the Banque de la Credit
>Internationale. In 1962, Guy Banister had dispatched to Paris
>a lawyer friend, Maurice Gatlin, a member of Banister's
>Anti-Communist League of the Caribbean, with a suitcase
>full of money for the OAS, reportedly around $200,000.25
>Finally, the French authorities accused the CIA of encourag-
>ing French generals to try to get rid of de Gaulle, a charge
>the Agency has never convincingly denied.26
>
>What makes the Permindex connection even more fascinat-
>ing is that four of its directors are knit into the events in
>Dallas or surrounding the assassination. Besides Shaw, there
>is Nagy, who lived in Dallas at the time.27 Jean DeMenil of
>Schlumberger Corporation, which owned the ammunition
>dump at Houma raided by Ferrie and Novel, was also on the
>board. Another director was Paul Raigorodsky, a millionaire
>Texas oilman and a prominent figure in the Dallas White
>Russian community, who was a friend of George DeMohren-
>schildt and a director of the Tolstoy Foundation, a CIA front
>that helped Eastern European exiles get to America.28 The
>Tolstoy Foundation, which aimed to use those exiles against
>the Soviet Union, was the brainchild of Reinhard Gehlen.29
>
The Tolstoy Foundation had elected directors to the board of Permindex in
equal numbers to the directors of the Italian Royal family and the
Hungsarian Fascists.
Permindex directors Jean DeMenil participated in, and Paul Raigorodsky
was invited to participate in, George deMohrenschildt's Haiti venture.
<SNIP>
Although I do not believe that either Shaw or Permindex assassinated JFK,
shown below is a footnote that describes a lead that I have not been able
Who is Jean Souetre? He was the OAS's liasion officer assigned to the
CIA in Madrid. His job was to try and sell the CIA on backing the OAS in
assassinating DeGaulle. These Madrid "sales" meetings were routinely
attended by four people, three of whom were Souetre, Nagy, and our own E.
Howard Hunt.
Although the CIA never accepted Souetre's offer, they did allow Souetre
to tour several anti-Castro CIA training camps in the US which were
engaging in assassination training. He seems to have met with, and
sought the support of, General Walker during this tour.
Souetre, as mentioned in the above footnote, denied being in Dallas on
11/22/63 and said it was OAS Captain Michel Mertz. A description by the
INS agent who deported the Frenchman fits Mertz over the other
alternatives.
And who is Michel Mertz? In August, 1961 the OAS exploded a bomb under
Charles DeGaulle's car but without killing him. Because DeGaulle made it
hard for the OAS to kill him by traveling in three identical limousines (
A game of "Guess which one I'm in, guys?"), it was necessary for the OAS
to monitor DeGaulle's cars in order to know which one he was in and,
therefore, which one to blow up. The OAS officer in charge of tracking
DeGaulle's movements was Michel Mertz. After the bombing attempt failed,
Mertz fled arrest and escaped to Montreal, home of Permindex's Bloomfield
and their recent HQ. Captured OAS files have connected Permindex to this
plot.
Now, it seems that Mertz showed up in Dallas on 11/22 and Fort Worth
the day before. Was Mertz following JFK the same way he had followed
DeGaulle?
Interesting question and I don't know the answer. I did check to
see if Michel Mertz could be the CIA's WI/ROGUE and determined he was not.
That's where the trail dead ended.
Just a thought.
.Clark
Thanks for posting the Destiny Betrayed excerpt.
>-------------------- END DESTINY BETRAYED EXCERPT ----------------------
>
Dreitzes
>Message-id: <7950b6$skm$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
>
>Tony Pitman <a...@southern.co.nz> wrote:
>>
[snip]
>>British intelligence for leadership you say?
>>Yet at least two company officers were ex OSS.
>>Bloomfield who was president I think and Shaw.
>
>Yes. Both were involved with the OSS. Bloomfield was on loan to US
>intelligence from British intelligence whereas Shaw was on loan from OSS
>to British intelligence, a sort of "trade" you might say.
>It is probably not "coincidence" that these two traded US/British agents
>were then placed on Permindex. As a joint coalition intelligence effort
>between the US and Britain, these two guys were natural selections.
>However, it was Britain's Bloomfield that ran Permindex, not Shaw, so the
>corporate leadership authority rested with the British.
>
******************************************************************
Dave Reitzes responds:
This is genuinely interesting, Clark, but some source citations, please.
*****************************************************************
>>Knowing Shaw's history makes it unlikely that
>>he was one of these unaware directors you are
>>referring to.
>
>Agreed. The CIA had used Shaw for collecting information in the past and
>we know that the CIA was collecting info on Permindex. I would be
>greatly surprised if Shaw was not one of the CIA's sources for the info
>in its files on Permindex.
******************************************************************
DR responds:
I don't think that's what Tony has in mind, though, since spying on Fascists
would tend to make Shaw one of the good guys, right?
******************************************************************
>So how "unwary" was he?
>Probably not very unwary.
>Yet he is still not a member of the three primary voting blocks on the
>board and they did need someone who could run trade marts on the board
>and Shaw fits that bill.
******************************************************************
DR responds:
Which is still more than Shaw claims he did for them.
********************************************************************
*******************************************************************
DR responds:
Please, Clark, some source citations. Where are you getting all of this?
Dave
Clark Wilkins
>This is a very interesting and informative post, Clark, but I wish you'd
cite
>your sources.
>
>Dave Reitzes
>
Sorry about that, Dave.
It's my biggest weakness.
When I first started studying the case it was before internet news groups
like this existed and I had no reason to think I'd need cites since I
wasn't writing a book. Also, at the time I was gullible enough to
believe anything I read (I mean they'd get sued for it if it wasn't true,
right?).
I didn't start taking notes on sources until about four years ago. Then
when I tried to cross-index notes to sources on my computer I ran out of
memory (I got a lot of JFK stuff). So it's all sitting in boxes.
I think you'll see however, that's there's very little difference between
my findings on Permindex and diEugenio's (I've never read his book) and
he has citations included.
.Clark
Dreitzes
>Message-id: <7957aq$24go$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
Dave Reitzes responds:
Well, it seems to me that DiEugenio, like Bill Davy, has a certain rather
obvious agenda which you lack. If you come up with any citations, please let me
know, as -- despite the musings of some of my fellow researchers -- I'm
interested in sorting out truth from fiction in this CMC/Permindex matter.
Tony Pitman
> >> 100% certainty that Permindex was not involved. Some Permindex
> >> connections to Dallas do exist, however, which deserve attention
> but
> I
> >>
> >> don't think Clay Shaw is amongst them.
> >> That's my 2 bits worth.
> >> Hope it helps.
> >>
> >> .Clark
> >
> >British intelligence for leadership you say?
> >Yet at least two company officers were ex OSS.
> >Bloomfield who was president I think and Shaw.
>
> Yes. Both were involved with the OSS. Bloomfield was on loan to US
> intelligence from British intelligence whereas Shaw was on loan from
> OSS
> to British intelligence, a sort of "trade" you might say.
> It is probably not "coincidence" that these two traded US/British
> agents
> were then placed on Permindex. As a joint coalition intelligence
> effort
> between the US and Britain, these two guys were natural selections.
> However, it was Britain's Bloomfield that ran Permindex, not Shaw, so
> the
> corporate leadership authority rested with the British.
Yes well my understanding was that Bloomfield was Canadian which did
cooperate very closely with Britain but there were differences. of
course during the war everyone was very close.
>
>
> >Knowing Shaw's history makes it unlikely that
> >he was one of these unaware directors you are
> >referring to.
>
> Agreed. The CIA had used Shaw for collecting information in the past
> and
> we know that the CIA was collecting info on Permindex. I would be
> greatly surprised if Shaw was not one of the CIA's sources for the
> info
> in its files on Permindex.
> So how "unwary" was he?
> Probably not very unwary.
> Yet he is still not a member of the three primary voting blocks on the
>
> board and they did need someone who could run trade marts on the board
>
> and Shaw fits that bill.
> After all, somebody had to do it.
> But, yes, I see and respect your point. They didn't just select "any"
>
> guy to run the trade marts. They selected Clay Shaw, someone they
> could
> trust.
Knowing that the US $200,000 war fund for Permindex in France came
from Bannister's Anti Communist League of the Caribean narrows things
down a bit as far as Shaw's participation I would think.
My sentiments exactly
Tony
Dreitzes
>Date: 2/1/99 10:24 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <36B66FF1...@southern.co.nz>
Dave Reitzes responds:
Please refresh my memory about the source of this claim.
Tony Pitman
> >Subject: Re: Clay Shaw and the Gestapo
> >From: NNX...@prodigy.com (Clark Wilkins)
> >Date: 2/1/99 2:46 PM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id: <7950b6$skm$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
> >
> >Tony Pitman <a...@southern.co.nz> wrote:
> >>
>
> [snip]
>
> >>British intelligence for leadership you say?
> >>Yet at least two company officers were ex OSS.
> >>Bloomfield who was president I think and Shaw.
> >
> >Yes. Both were involved with the OSS. Bloomfield was on loan to US
> >intelligence from British intelligence whereas Shaw was on loan from
> OSS
> >to British intelligence, a sort of "trade" you might say.
> >It is probably not "coincidence" that these two traded US/British
> agents
> >were then placed on Permindex. As a joint coalition intelligence
> effort
> >between the US and Britain, these two guys were natural selections.
> >However, it was Britain's Bloomfield that ran Permindex, not Shaw, so
> the
> >corporate leadership authority rested with the British.
> >
>
> ******************************************************************
>
> Dave Reitzes responds:
>
> This is genuinely interesting, Clark, but some source citations,
> please.
>
> *****************************************************************
>
>
> >>Knowing Shaw's history makes it unlikely that
> >>he was one of these unaware directors you are
> >>referring to.
> >
> >Agreed. The CIA had used Shaw for collecting information in the past
> and
> >we know that the CIA was collecting info on Permindex. I would be
> >greatly surprised if Shaw was not one of the CIA's sources for the
> info
> >in its files on Permindex.
>
> ******************************************************************
>
> DR responds:
>
> I don't think that's what Tony has in mind, though, since spying on
> Fascists
> would tend to make Shaw one of the good guys, right?
>
> ******************************************************************
Wrong. That is not what I was thinking at all. You are right that I have
no time for Fascists but I am not soft on Communists either. People seem
to forget that Democracy is preferable to either, or any other, extreme.
Shaw is obviously no bunny. He tells you in these recently quoted
speeches that he doesn't believe in free trade either.His idea of trade
is using it as a tool to wage economic warfare. Or rather I should say,
that is what he was employed for.
In sofar as what Clark has said sofar I believe that we could be talking
here about the public image of something deeper.
Clark touched on Nagy's connection to Gehlen which I thought rather
obvious but what this really means of course is that behind Gehlen will
have been Willoughby and the entire worldwide consortium of
anti-communist outfits.
And behind them were the people who were running the show. Those who
paid for it, one group of which were based in Dallas.
Shaw it would seem was connected to the far right and the CIA faction
that was based around former FBI men.
>
>
> >So how "unwary" was he?
> >Probably not very unwary.
> >Yet he is still not a member of the three primary voting blocks on
> the
> >board and they did need someone who could run trade marts on the
> board
> >and Shaw fits that bill.
>
> ******************************************************************
>
> DR responds:
>
> Which is still more than Shaw claims he did for them.
>
> ********************************************************************
Well you would hardly expect him to have advertised the fact in light of
what they were up to.
> *******************************************************************
>
> DR responds:
>
> Please, Clark, some source citations. Where are you getting all of
> this?
>
> Dave
One or two other things to take into account Clark when you refer to the
British running things is that they were almost broke after the war
which accounts for Bronfman paying for this but, although they had
plenty of expertise, the SIS was also well and truly penetrated.
I have an idea that U.S. intelligence via the Canadians had a much
bigger hand in this than you give them credit for.
Tony
James Crary
Construction Site: www.inergy.com/crary
Jim Hargrove
>harg...@enteract.com (Jim Hargrove) wrote:
[. . . .]
>>What evidence is there that Shaw was unaware of the operations of the
>company he co-directed?
>
>No evidence. In fact it is easier to demonstrate that he was aware than
>it is to demonstrate he was "unaware". Yet I don't have evidence he
>participated in the company's "shady" operations. I admit it's a fine
>line, but Shaw is a collector of economic information (Such as when
>Shinley posted his 1958 speech on Soviet aluminum prices) versus a
>plotter of gov't intrigue.
I haven't seen them yet, but I've been told by a source I trust that docs from
the 1950s have been released to NARA showing Shaw asking repeatedly for a
larger role in CIA operations, beyond the domestic contact business, though
nothing yet has been found indicating his request was granted. But it seems a
logical enough leap to assume the "contact" paper trail could have ended
because Shaw was granted a more sensitive role. (The aforementioned papers--I
think--will be included in Bill Davy's new book on the Garrison case, due out
in just a few months.)
><SNIP>
>They were more than just closely related. CMC bought Permindex in 1961.
>CMC was caught funding activities directed against the Communist Party
>(CP) in Italy, something a foreign company is not allowed to do.
>CIA records show that the CIA was funding actions against the CP in Italy
>at the very time CMC was caught.
That seems normal enough for Cold War shenanigans, but the Permindex/OAS
DeGaulle assassination attempts are a whole lot harder to accept.
><SNIP>
>One director, when he requested an audit of where this money was coming
>from, resigned when his request was refused.
Do you recall his name?
>>In 1967, the Canadian newspaper Le Devoir, following up
>>on an extraordinary expose of CMC that had just appeared in
>>Italy, noted:18
>>
>> [H]ere is where the affair assumes stranger and stran-
>> ger characteristics. It has just been learned that the name
>> of Clay Shaw was found among that of the eleven direc-
>> tors of a company, which up until 1962 had its headquar-
>> ters in Montreal ... in Rome it is known as the Centro
>> Mondiale de Commerciale....
>>
>>In Italy, when the papers--both the liberal Paesa Sera and
>>the conservative De La Sera--exposed CMC's personnel,
>>practices, and policies again, as in Switzerland, the company
>>was swept out of the country.
>
>This part is incorrect. Permindex was not kicked out of Switzerland.
>Jacque Soustelle had been forced out of Switzerland and Permindex moved
>with him. Small difference but possibly important when defending
>yourself against LNers.
The sentence above can be read two different ways. I think DiEugenio meant
that newspaper reports exposed CMC practices "again," not that it was expelled
"again."
[. . . .]
> The Italian press revealed that
>>it had been accused of channeling funds to the Secret Army
>>Organization (OAS), a clandestine paramilitary group op-
>>posed to President de Gaulle's support for Algerian inde-
>>pendence.21 Later, the OAS attempted to assassinate de
>>Gaulle.22
>
>I have connected Permindex to two plots to kill DeGaulle. This was the
>purpose of the British led coalition.
Are you referring to the six-figure sum (variously reported as either roughly
$100,000 or $200,000) from Banister/Gatlin? This gets awfully close to Shaw.
><SNIP>
>
>Although I do not believe that either Shaw or Permindex assassinated JFK,
>shown below is a footnote that describes a lead that I have not been able
>to dismiss. It says:
[. . . .]
>Who is Jean Souetre? He was the OAS's liasion officer assigned to the
>CIA in Madrid. His job was to try and sell the CIA on backing the OAS in
>assassinating DeGaulle. These Madrid "sales" meetings were routinely
>attended by four people, three of whom were Souetre, Nagy, and our own E.
>Howard Hunt.
>Although the CIA never accepted Souetre's offer, they did allow Souetre
How do you know it wasn't accepted? (See Russell, TMWKTM, 558. Russell
writes that in the CIA file stating "the U.S. had absolutely no intention of
working with any person or group against the duly constituted government of
France," the very proper denial appears in a different typeface. I wonder
why? We have sworn HSCA testimony, for example, from former CIA employee
James Wilcott that the agency routinely rewrote--or destroyed--internal files
when a "flap" occurred. Wilcott defined a "flap" as public exposure of
sensitive information or operations.)
>to tour several anti-Castro CIA training camps in the US which were
>engaging in assassination training. He seems to have met with, and
>sought the support of, General Walker during this tour.
>Souetre, as mentioned in the above footnote, denied being in Dallas on
>11/22/63 and said it was OAS Captain Michel Mertz. A description by the
>INS agent who deported the Frenchman fits Mertz over the other
>alternatives.
>And who is Michel Mertz? In August, 1961 the OAS exploded a bomb under
>Charles DeGaulle's car but without killing him. Because DeGaulle made it
>hard for the OAS to kill him by traveling in three identical limousines (
>A game of "Guess which one I'm in, guys?"), it was necessary for the OAS
>to monitor DeGaulle's cars in order to know which one he was in and,
>therefore, which one to blow up. The OAS officer in charge of tracking
>DeGaulle's movements was Michel Mertz. After the bombing attempt failed,
>Mertz fled arrest and escaped to Montreal, home of Permindex's Bloomfield
>and their recent HQ. Captured OAS files have connected Permindex to this
>plot.
Russell tells this slightly differently. He writes:
Michael Mertz had been a leader of the French Resistance
movement in World War II; his exploits were recorded in a
number of books. A former intelligence officer in the
SDECE, by the late 1950s Mertz had turned to smuggling
narcotics on a vast scale from France to both the United
States and Canada. Called back into uniform in 1961, he
was assigned by the SDECE to infiltrate the OAS.
(TMWKTM, 559-560)
Do you have copies of the OAS files connecting Permindex to the attempts on
DeGaulle?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
If time permits, I'd very much like to hear your comments about the following
article which I first posted to this ng in 1992, and have reposted at least a
dozen times over the years. It is based on a copyrighted 1992 Santa Barbara
newspaper article by Bertrand Russell's last secretary, Ralph Schoenman, and
so I quoted some material and paraphrased the rest.
<QUOTE ON>
At the time of the assassination of JFK, Ralph Schoenman, who today lives
in California, was a young man and the executive director of the Bertrand
Russell Peace Foundation. In December 1963, right after JFK's murder, the
Foundation organized a "Who Killed Kennedy Committee" that included
Schoenman (who served as the group's director), Bertrand Russell,
historian/statesman Arnold Toynbee, and others.
Although I've found little mention of the committee's activities in the
U.S. press, Mr. Schoenman reported that it was active for approximately
five years during the mid-1960s. The same infamous CIA memo that mentions
media "assets" also cites charges made by Russell's group. In January
1992, during the height of the media campaign against Oliver Stone's
motion picture, Schoenman published a story summarizing and updating the
committee's work in the Santa Barbara (California) News-Press. Since this
story has a number of similarities to the so-called "Torbitt Document,"
the work of Bertrand Russell's group may have been a principle source for
the anonymous author of that text. However, Mr. Schoenman makes no mention
of the pseudonymous William Torbitt in his News-Press article, which is
summarized below.
Russell's Who Killed Kennedy Committee's five-year study focused on two
organizations with shared directors: Centro Mondiale Commerciale (CMC, or
World Trade Center) and a subsidiary, Permanent Industrial Expositions,
usually called "Permindex." CMC's board included Shaw and Ferenc Nagy,
former Prime Minister of Hungary. A major stockholder was Maj. L.M.
Bloomfield, who Schoenman categorized as "a former officer of the Office
of Strategic Services (OSS), a member of Division 5 of the FBI and a
personal confidante of J. Edgar Hoover." Shaw listed his Permindex
directorship in "Who's Who in the Southwest (1962)." (NOTE: I asked the
reference librarian in my little municipal public library to locate that
book. She was unable to find it. She did, however, locate Clay Shaw's
listing in "Who's Who in the South and Southwest 1963-1964," and had the
appropriate page faxed to me from the library that owned the book. Shaw's
listing included the phrase, "member of the board of directors Permindex.")
According to Schoenman, Shaw had been a bigwig in the OSS, assigned for a
time to Winston Churchill's headquarters. While still in the OSS, Shaw
became director of New Orleans' International House-World Trade Center,
which, Schoenman says, coordinated banking activities of Meyer Lansky and
Batista's Cuba. The World Trade Center was reorganized as the
International Trade Mart after Shaw was thrown out of Italy by the Italian
government. Here, according to Schoenman, is how Shaw became persona non
grata in Italy and, presumably, France.
French intelligence in 1962 discovered that CMC and Permindex were the
main conduits of arms and money to the Secret Army (OAS) in Algeria.
Schoenman reported, "We had documented that the OAS had undertaken the
assassination of French President Charles de Gaulle. The arms and funds
deployed in three attempts to kill de Gaulle were traced to Permindex. A
specific fund of $200,000 was provided for the assassination.
"The data assembled regarding the role of both CMC and Permindex in this
murderous assignment led de Gaulle publicly to accuse Permindex of
coordinating attempts at his assassination. De Gaulle labeled these CIA
fronts."
According to Schoenman, CMC and Permindex also "funded and aided a
military coup d'etat in Greece and were involved in high-level military
attempts to take over the Italian government," which led to the expulsion
of both organizations from Italy.
"Three men directed the assassination and coup d'etat work of CMC and
Permindex," Schoenman continued, "Maj. L.M. Bloomfield, Ferenc Nagy and
Clay Shaw. Shaw worked closely with Guy Banister, who had set up offices
at 544 Camp St. in New Orleans as a private detective. This was to become
a famous address."
"In fact," Schoenman wrote, "Guy Banister had been director of the FBI
office in Chicago and a ranking official in the Office of Naval
Intelligence. In 1962, $200,000 was channeled in a cash delivery to the
accounts of Shaw's CMC in Paris by the legal counsel of the Anti-Communist
League of the Caribbean--founded by 'detective' Banister.
"Le Devoir, of Montreal, published particulars about the roles of
Bloomfield and Nagy, Shaw's co-directors, concluding: 'Nagy has close ties
to the CIA and the Miami Cuban colony.' After the expulsion from Italy,
Nagy set up new headquarters in Dallas, Texas.
"District Attorney Jim Garrison was disturbed to learn that the
presumptive killer of John Kennedy, Lee Harvey Oswald, operated out of the
offices of Guy Banister at 544 Camp St. These concerns became alarm when
Garrison discovered that Banister was, in fact, the former head of the FBI
in Chicago and had been joined in his offices by E. Howard Hunt, who was
the head of the Domestic Operations Division of the CIA.
"Garrison learned that Banister and Hunt had prepared the overthrow of
Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala in 1954, an operation acknowledged by the CIA.
"From Banister's New Orleans offices, Hunt operated his 'Cuban
Revolutionary Council,' the shadow government intended to take power in
Cuba after the assassination of Fidel Castro.
"Shaw was identified to Garrison by four CIA operatives as the man to whom
Banister reported: David Ferrie, Eladio del Valle, Gordon Novell and
Richard Nagell.
"It was Shaw who presented Maj. Gen. Charles Cabell to the Foreign Policy
Association in New Orleans to report on the failed Bay of Pigs invasion.
Cabell was its command director, E. Howard Hunt, its chief political
officer. Cabell was deputy director of the CIA and was, like Dulles, fired
by Kennedy. Cabell's brother, Earle, was mayor of Dallas when Kennedy was
assassinated. Their father and grandfather were mayor and sherrif of
Dallas before them.
"Kennedy was en route to lunch at the International Trade Mart in Dallas
when he was assassinated, a destination which determined the routing of
his motorcade."
Mr. Schoenman's article continues with discussions of Jack Ruby, his ties
with LHO, both men's ties with Shaw, and the successful efforts to derail
Jim Garrison's prosecution. "If, however, critical evidence was kept from
the jury trying Clay Shaw," Schoenman continued, "newspapers and
television today have no comparable impediment.
"Upon his resignation from the CIA as executive assistant to the deputy
director, Victor Marchetti disclosed that the head of clandestine services
of the CIA, Thomas Karamessines, acknowledged Clay Shaw as one of his top
operatives. Marchetti confirmed that CIA director Richard Helms instructed
him to 'do all we can to help Shaw.' A CIA memo dated Sept. 28, 1967
refers to 30 top secret reports by Clay Shaw to his director."
* * *
SOURCE: Ralph Schoenman, "'JFK' AND CLAY SHAW: Credible evidence connects
the CIA's Shaw to Oswald," Santa Barbara News-Press, Sunday, January 12,
1992.
<QUOTE OFF>
Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts about this.
--Jim Hargrove
Jim Hargrove
>>One director, when he requested an audit of where this money was coming
>>from, resigned when his request was refused.
>
>Do you recall his name?
DiEugenio says it was Mario Ceravalo.
--Jim Hargrove
Dreitzes
>Date: 2/2/99 4:54 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <36B6CB6C...@southern.co.nz>
>
[snip]
>>
>> DR responds:
>>
>> I don't think that's what Tony has in mind, though, since spying on
>> Fascists
>> would tend to make Shaw one of the good guys, right?
>>
>> ******************************************************************
>
>Wrong. That is not what I was thinking at all. You are right that I have
>no time for Fascists but I am not soft on Communists either. People seem
>to forget that Democracy is preferable to either, or any other, extreme.
>
>Shaw is obviously no bunny. He tells you in these recently quoted
>speeches that he doesn't believe in free trade either.His idea of trade
>is using it as a tool to wage economic warfare. Or rather I should say,
>that is what he was employed for.
*****************************************************************
Dave Reitzes responds:
Now, wait just a second. I think you're being a little hasty. My understanding
of the ITM is that one of its primary goals was to foster trade between the US
and Latin America. Any institution with that as a goal during the Cold War is
going to be alarmed at the prospect of the USSR underselling the US, thus
overturning principles of free trade in order to develop connections with Latin
American countries. This was a year BEFORE Cuba went Communist -- Shaw knew
what he was talking about. I'm not saying his position was right -- I don't
know enough about his position to judge either way -- but can't you see where
he was coming from? He was trying to prevent the USSR from exploiting its
economic position to make Communist inroads into the Western Hemisphere. What's
wrong with that?
******************************************************************
>In sofar as what Clark has said sofar I believe that we could be talking
>here about the public image of something deeper.
>Clark touched on Nagy's connection to Gehlen which I thought rather
>obvious but what this really means of course is that behind Gehlen will
>have been Willoughby and the entire worldwide consortium of
>anti-communist outfits.
>And behind them were the people who were running the show. Those who
>paid for it, one group of which were based in Dallas.
*******************************************************************
DR responds:
Who? Walker's bunch? You have to be more specific, Tony. These vaguely sketched
"links" are the kind of thing our buddy B Flat uses to implicate anyone he
wants to. Give us something solid -- some solid testimony, some solid
documentation, SOMETHING.
********************************************************************
>Shaw it would seem was connected to the far right and the CIA faction
>that was based around former FBI men.
>
******************************************************************
DR responds:
"Would seem"? I don't see that at all, Tony. Are you referring to the two or
three people Bill Davy's dug up who say Shaw was ACQUAINTED with Guy Banister?
If so, what kind of sinister "connection" is that? If you have knowledge of
anything more than that, please present it, Tony. I keep asking you, and you
never respond. It sounds to me like you simply believe that Shaw was a bad man
(and therefore involved in the JFK assassination, apparently) and you'll use
any excuse to justify that position. I hope I'm wrong, Tony, I really do. But I
need you to make your case, and you keep declining to do so.
Clark Wilkins
Mario Ceravalo
Director, CMC
<SNIP>
>
>> The Italian press revealed that
>>>it had been accused of channeling funds to the Secret Army
>>>Organization (OAS), a clandestine paramilitary group op-
>>>posed to President de Gaulle's support for Algerian inde-
>>>pendence.21 Later, the OAS attempted to assassinate de
>>>Gaulle.22
>>
>>I have connected Permindex to two plots to kill DeGaulle. This was the
>>purpose of the British led coalition.
>
>Are you referring to the six-figure sum (variously reported as either
roughly
>$100,000 or $200,000) from Banister/Gatlin? This gets awfully close to
Shaw.
>
If you assume that a check was delivered from Permindex to Gatlin, who
resided in New Orleans, the most logical courier for that check was Shaw,
a Permindex director who also resided in New Orleans.
It seems a logical guess but I don't know if it happened that way.
The evidence that Souetre's offer was not accepted lies in the fact that
Souetre kept repeating the offer. If it had been accepted, Souetre would
have stopped asking. Instead, his requests would have changed to those
of material means by which to kill DeGaulle.
The "official" response of the CIA to aid the OAS in killing DeGaulle was
to turn him down. "Unofficially", however, he was invited to tour CIA
assassination training camps, introduced to General Walker, and the car
bomb used against DeGaulle was found to have an American made detonator.
<SNIP>
>
>Russell tells this slightly differently. He writes:
>
> Michael Mertz had been a leader of the French Resistance
> movement in World War II; his exploits were recorded in a
> number of books. A former intelligence officer in the
> SDECE, by the late 1950s Mertz had turned to smuggling
> narcotics on a vast scale from France to both the United
> States and Canada. Called back into uniform in 1961, he
> was assigned by the SDECE to infiltrate the OAS.
> (TMWKTM, 559-560)
>
Not quite true. Mertz quit the SDECE in order to join the OAS. He
oversaw the smuggling of French heroin to Canada, the proceeds of which
were used to fund the OAS. When DeGaulle became aware that the French
chemist labs were being used to fund assassination attempts against him,
he raided and shut down the labs with his own private police force. The
labs were forced to move from France to Sicily. I suspect the Italian
Royal Family was behind the move.
When Mertz participated in the car bombing plot, his name was revealed by
his captured collaboraters and DeGaulle issued a warrant for his arrest.
It was then that Colonel Fourcaud, head of the SDECE, announced that
Mertz was "actually" an SDECE agent assigned to penetrate the OAS and
that it was information provided them by Mertz that allowed them to foil
the car bomb plot.
This was a lie. The car bomb plot was not foiled (The detonator failed
to function properly) and Mertz had never given any forewarning.
Fourcaud made this claim in order prevent Mertz's arrest. Captured OAS
files show that Fourcade was then in contact with the OAS and had offered
assistance in killing DeGaulle. It was Fourcaud's immediate superior,
the French Minister of the Interior, who put Mertz on a plane to Canada
to prevent his capture.
>Do you have copies of the OAS files connecting Permindex to the attempts
on
>DeGaulle?
>
No. I'm sorry. They would be in French anyway. However, the captured
files refer to Permindex as "Jonson Commando". It's possible to
identify Jonson Commando as being Permindex with almost no imagination,
based upon the people who represented themselves to the OAS, their
messages, and where they were headquartered. However, OAS documents
never actually identify "Jonson Commando" as being Permindex for security
reasons. Also, "Jonson Commando" never identified to the OAS who they
represented. OAS concluded they were CIA.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The reference to Division 5 refers to British agent Bloomfield's setting
up the FBI's office in Mexico City. It was agreed that the US would
staff and operate the branch office and that Bloomfield would provide
their training in intelligence collection in exchange for Britain being
allowed to share in the information being obtained. This operation
caught George deMohrenschildt.
Shaw listed his Permindex
>directorship in "Who's Who in the Southwest (1962)." (NOTE: I asked the
>reference librarian in my little municipal public library to locate
that
>book. She was unable to find it. She did, however, locate Clay Shaw's
>listing in "Who's Who in the South and Southwest 1963-1964," and had
the
>appropriate page faxed to me from the library that owned the book.
Shaw's
>listing included the phrase, "member of the board of directors Permindex.
")
>
>According to Schoenman, Shaw had been a bigwig in the OSS, assigned for
a
>time to Winston Churchill's headquarters. While still in the OSS, Shaw
>became director of New Orleans' International House-World Trade Center,
>which, Schoenman says, coordinated banking activities of Meyer Lansky
and
>Batista's Cuba. The World Trade Center was reorganized as the
>International Trade Mart after Shaw was thrown out of Italy by the
Italian
>government. Here, according to Schoenman, is how Shaw became persona
non
>grata in Italy and, presumably, France.
>
The banking activities for Lansky and Batista's Cuba refers to a 1959
plan to get Lansky's money out of Cuba. This would later include the
World Commerce Bank and Castle Bank in routing Lansky's money (As well as
Cleveland Syndicate money) to Tibor Rosenbaum's Banque De Credit
Internationale (BCI) with which Permindex banked. The $ 200,000
transferred from BCI to Permindex and then to Gatlin (less "expenses")
was Mafia money.
I don't believe Shaw was ever persona non grata anywhere.
>French intelligence in 1962 discovered that CMC and Permindex were the
>main conduits of arms and money to the Secret Army (OAS) in Algeria.
>Schoenman reported, "We had documented that the OAS had undertaken the
>assassination of French President Charles de Gaulle. The arms and funds
>deployed in three attempts to kill de Gaulle were traced to Permindex.
A
>specific fund of $200,000 was provided for the assassination.
>
I, myself, have traced two plots to Permindex.
>"The data assembled regarding the role of both CMC and Permindex in
this
>murderous assignment led de Gaulle publicly to accuse Permindex of
>coordinating attempts at his assassination. De Gaulle labeled these CIA
>fronts."
I don't know if DeGaulle actually said or did this. I have read this
claim before but never seen it substantiated.
>According to Schoenman, CMC and Permindex also "funded and aided a
>military coup d'etat in Greece and were involved in high-level military
>attempts to take over the Italian government," which led to the
expulsion
>of both organizations from Italy.
I don't know about the Greece thing but its probably a reference to
Robert Morrow's claims about CMC/Permindex having a wearehouse full of
German machineguns in Greece. The Italian gov't thing is probably a
reference to CMC's attempts to combat the Communist Party in Italy, which
is illegal for a foreign company to do.
>"Three men directed the assassination and coup d'etat work of CMC and
>Permindex," Schoenman continued, "Maj. L.M. Bloomfield, Ferenc Nagy and
>Clay Shaw. Shaw worked closely with Guy Banister, who had set up
offices
>at 544 Camp St. in New Orleans as a private detective. This was to
become
>a famous address."
I'll go along with Nagy and Bloomfield.
>"In fact," Schoenman wrote, "Guy Banister had been director of the FBI
>office in Chicago and a ranking official in the Office of Naval
>Intelligence. In 1962, $200,000 was channeled in a cash delivery to the
>accounts of Shaw's CMC in Paris by the legal counsel of the Anti-
Communist
>League of the Caribbean--founded by 'detective' Banister.
Actually, I think you'll find that the ACLC was Gatlin's operation using
Samoza money. He once identified Banister as president, a claim Banister
promptly denied.
>"Le Devoir, of Montreal, published particulars about the roles of
>Bloomfield and Nagy, Shaw's co-directors, concluding: 'Nagy has close
ties
>to the CIA and the Miami Cuban colony.' After the expulsion from Italy,
>Nagy set up new headquarters in Dallas, Texas.
Nagy was undoubtedly in Dallas to work with General Walker. Nagy was a
participant to the Madrid meetings between the CIA's E. Howard Hunt and
Souetre which led to Souetre's tour of the US CIA camps and meeting with
General Walker.
>"District Attorney Jim Garrison was disturbed to learn that the
>presumptive killer of John Kennedy, Lee Harvey Oswald, operated out of
the
>offices of Guy Banister at 544 Camp St. These concerns became alarm
when
>Garrison discovered that Banister was, in fact, the former head of the
FBI
>in Chicago and had been joined in his offices by E. Howard Hunt, who
was
>the head of the Domestic Operations Division of the CIA.
>
>"Garrison learned that Banister and Hunt had prepared the overthrow of
>Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala in 1954, an operation acknowledged by the CIA.
>
>"From Banister's New Orleans offices, Hunt operated his 'Cuban
>Revolutionary Council,' the shadow government intended to take power in
>Cuba after the assassination of Fidel Castro.
>
>"Shaw was identified to Garrison by four CIA operatives as the man to
whom
>Banister reported: David Ferrie, Eladio del Valle, Gordon Novell and
>Richard Nagell.
Although I wouldn't bet the farm on the above witnesses, it is quite
possible (if not highly likely) that Shaw gave information to Banister
for his files.
Interesting article
.Clark
Clark Wilkins
>speeches that he doesn't believe in free trade either.His idea of trade
>is using it as a tool to wage economic warfare. Or rather I should say,
>that is what he was employed for.
talking
>here about the public image of something deeper.
You got my attention, Tony, with what you said next:
>Clark touched on Nagy's connection to Gehlen which I thought rather
>obvious but what this really means of course is that behind Gehlen will
>have been Willoughby and the entire worldwide consortium of
>anti-communist outfits.
You've made the Willoughby connection too?
Do you include Dr. Robert Morris in that?
Because if you do, I think you and I are driving the same highway.
>And behind them were the people who were running the show. Those who
>paid for it, one group of which were based in Dallas.
The highway now becomes four lanes.
>Shaw it would seem was connected to the far right and the CIA faction
>that was based around former FBI men.
>
Oops! Detour!
Shaw is small potatoes, undoubtedly picked out by Garrison to please
Carlos Marcello (and who selected him for the same reasons you do).
If you want to get back on the Dallas highway from Permindex, follow the
car belonging to Paul Raigorodsky.
.Clark
Leo Sgouros
Clark Wilkins wrote in message
<79856r$5eq2$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Tony Pitman
> >Shaw is obviously no bunny. He tells you in these recently quoted
> >speeches that he doesn't believe in free trade either.His idea of
> trade
> >is using it as a tool to wage economic warfare. Or rather I should
> say,
> >that is what he was employed for.
> >In sofar as what Clark has said sofar I believe that we could be
> talking
> >here about the public image of something deeper.
>
> You got my attention, Tony, with what you said next:
>
> >Clark touched on Nagy's connection to Gehlen which I thought rather
> >obvious but what this really means of course is that behind Gehlen
> will
> >have been Willoughby and the entire worldwide consortium of
> >anti-communist outfits.
>
> You've made the Willoughby connection too?
> Do you include Dr. Robert Morris in that?
> Because if you do, I think you and I are driving the same highway.
Right. While I've read plenty about MacArthur's "little fascist" I'm not
too up on Morris. Where can I get some detail on him?
>
>
> >And behind them were the people who were running the show. Those who
> >paid for it, one group of which were based in Dallas.
>
> The highway now becomes four lanes.
>
> >Shaw it would seem was connected to the far right and the CIA faction
>
> >that was based around former FBI men.
> >
>
> Oops! Detour!
> Shaw is small potatoes, undoubtedly picked out by Garrison to please
> Carlos Marcello (and who selected him for the same reasons you do).
> If you want to get back on the Dallas highway from Permindex, follow
> the
> car belonging to Paul Raigorodsky.
>
> .Clark
Sort of. I would say that Shaw was the most senior out of those in New
Orleans anyway. Aside from Bannister the rest that hung around there
seem to have been gofers, agents of one sort or another and military
instructors along with trainees.
This is most of the problem really. There were so many people running
around playing soldiers, spy vs spy and gun runners that it's hard to
narrow it down.
But you are right that these are mostly lower echelon.
Do you mean that Raigorodski was the bagman for the Dallas Petroleum
Club for want of a better term?
BTW, interesting that the Canadian Permidex financier also had big stock
holdings in Bell Hellicopter at that time. I allways wonder about that
secret Bell research dept. run by former Peenemunde 2IC Domberger and
which was where Michael Paine worked. Do you think the Canadian may have
been a member of the Petroleum Club?
Tony
Tony Pitman
> >Subject: Re: Clay Shaw and the Gestapo
> >From: Tony Pitman <a...@southern.co.nz>
> >Date: 2/2/99 4:54 AM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id: <36B6CB6C...@southern.co.nz>
> >
>
> [snip]
>
> >>
> >> DR responds:
> >>
> >> I don't think that's what Tony has in mind, though, since spying on
>
> >> Fascists
> >> would tend to make Shaw one of the good guys, right?
> >>
> >> ******************************************************************
> >
> >Wrong. That is not what I was thinking at all. You are right that I
> have
> >no time for Fascists but I am not soft on Communists either. People
> seem
> >to forget that Democracy is preferable to either, or any other,
> extreme.
> >
> >Shaw is obviously no bunny. He tells you in these recently quoted
> >speeches that he doesn't believe in free trade either.His idea of
> trade
> >is using it as a tool to wage economic warfare. Or rather I should
> say,
> >that is what he was employed for.
>
> *****************************************************************
>
> Dave Reitzes responds:
>
> Now, wait just a second. I think you're being a little hasty. My
> understanding
> of the ITM is that one of its primary goals was to foster trade
> between the US
> and Latin America. Any institution with that as a goal during the Cold
> War is
> going to be alarmed at the prospect of the USSR underselling the US,
> thus
> overturning principles of free trade in order to develop connections
> with Latin
> American countries. This was a year BEFORE Cuba went Communist -- Shaw
> knew
> what he was talking about. I'm not saying his position was right -- I
> don't
> know enough about his position to judge either way -- but can't you
> see where
> he was coming from? He was trying to prevent the USSR from exploiting
> its
> economic position to make Communist inroads into the Western
> Hemisphere. What's
> wrong with that?
>
> ******************************************************************
Well he was not the only one to be talking that way. Every speech I've
read concerning the ITM was of that flavour. Very provocative.
Do you know how much actual trade went on there. We were argueing over
the statements of that secretary of Shaw's and I think you said he only
had one secretary.
Even Bannister seems to have had three or so, so it seems not a lot of
work got done there.
The offices weren't filled with import/export companies either. From
memory there were lawyers and even a CIA agent. Was it Gaudet?
What I mean is it has the appearance of a front rather than a legitimate
enterprise.
I also find it difficult to imagine to much panic concerning Communism
in Latin America in those days. Almost everyone bar none were solid
Catholic. Hard to shake that
Cuba is the only place that went that way and I think the people got
conned which woke up the rest.
Allende etc weren't really Commies. They were more like our Labour Party
and wanted land and business reform. Their crime was to scare the shit
out of ITT and United Fruit. A bit like JFK really.
>
>
> >In sofar as what Clark has said sofar I believe that we could be
> talking
> >here about the public image of something deeper.
> >Clark touched on Nagy's connection to Gehlen which I thought rather
> >obvious but what this really means of course is that behind Gehlen
> will
> >have been Willoughby and the entire worldwide consortium of
> >anti-communist outfits.
> >And behind them were the people who were running the show. Those who
> >paid for it, one group of which were based in Dallas.
>
> *******************************************************************
>
> DR responds:
>
> Who? Walker's bunch? You have to be more specific, Tony. These vaguely
> sketched
> "links" are the kind of thing our buddy B Flat uses to implicate
> anyone he
> wants to. Give us something solid -- some solid testimony, some solid
> documentation, SOMETHING.
>
> ********************************************************************
No not Walker. The Hunts and those of the Dallas Petroleum Club.
Willoughby was directly employed by H.L. which would have given H.L.
some mighty long arms. Tentacles really. Those people were something of
a law unto themselves. Wildcatters in business and by nature.
>
>
> >Shaw it would seem was connected to the far right and the CIA faction
>
> >that was based around former FBI men.
> >
> ******************************************************************
>
> DR responds:
>
> "Would seem"? I don't see that at all, Tony. Are you referring to the
> two or
> three people Bill Davy's dug up who say Shaw was ACQUAINTED with Guy
> Banister?
> If so, what kind of sinister "connection" is that? If you have
> knowledge of
> anything more than that, please present it, Tony. I keep asking you,
> and you
> never respond. It sounds to me like you simply believe that Shaw was a
> bad man
> (and therefore involved in the JFK assassination, apparently) and
> you'll use
> any excuse to justify that position. I hope I'm wrong, Tony, I really
> do. But I
> need you to make your case, and you keep declining to do so.
>
> Dave
No not Bannister altho he did work with Bannister I believe. No I'm more
concerned with his conections upwards so to speak.
Like the agency and also his Montreal connections which I believe were
Bronfman and Bloomfield. Can you think of another reason why he would be
going up there?
Like I said. Try and find out how much actual work got done on trade by
his office.
That might prove interesting. I cant do it from here.
Tony
Clark Wilkins
>> You've made the Willoughby connection too?
>> Do you include Dr. Robert Morris in that?
>> Because if you do, I think you and I are driving the same highway.
>
>Right. While I've read plenty about MacArthur's "little fascist" I'm
not
>too up on Morris. Where can I get some detail on him?
>
Morris served on the American Security Council with Willoughby and was
also in YAF with him. A Dallas political professor, he was Gen. Walker's
campaign manager and a political candidate himself. He also represented
Walker after RFK had Walker arrested after the Mississippi State riots.
He and Willoughby got CUSA's Larry Schmidt into YAF. It was Schmidt who
called on Bunker Hunt for the "Welcome, Mr. President" ad. Hunt paid 25%
of the ad cost and Morris 50%.
As you probably know, Willoughby and Walker didn't like each other, and
Morris played the role of political pinball between them.
Morris also told the local head of the Dallas Republican Party what to do
and when to do it.
>
>>
>>
>> >And behind them were the people who were running the show. Those who
>> >paid for it, one group of which were based in Dallas.
>>
>> The highway now becomes four lanes.
>>
>> >Shaw it would seem was connected to the far right and the CIA
faction
>>
>> >that was based around former FBI men.
>> >
>>
>> Oops! Detour!
>> Shaw is small potatoes, undoubtedly picked out by Garrison to please
>> Carlos Marcello (and who selected him for the same reasons you do).
>> If you want to get back on the Dallas highway from Permindex, follow
>> the
>> car belonging to Paul Raigorodsky.
>>
>> .Clark
>
>Sort of. I would say that Shaw was the most senior out of those in New
>Orleans anyway. Aside from Bannister the rest that hung around there
>seem to have been gofers, agents of one sort or another and military
>instructors along with trainees.
Agreed.
>This is most of the problem really. There were so many people running
>around playing soldiers, spy vs spy and gun runners that it's hard to
>narrow it down.
And then you've got Hemming and Sturgis and Loran Hall.
>But you are right that these are mostly lower echelon.
>Do you mean that Raigorodski was the bagman for the Dallas Petroleum
>Club for want of a better term?
I'm sure he had some connection to the club, but I was referring to his
being George Bouhe's boss.
>BTW, interesting that the Canadian Permidex financier also had big
stock
>holdings in Bell Hellicopter at that time. I allways wonder about that
>secret Bell research dept. run by former Peenemunde 2IC Domberger and
>which was where Michael Paine worked. Do you think the Canadian may
have
>been a member of the Petroleum Club?
>
>
>Tony
>
Actually, Bronfman didn't own Bell Helicopter. That's a D Flat factoid.
I'm very interested in Willoughby and his relationship with HL Hunt,
Hargis, and Walker. Post something on him.
.Clark
Dreitzes
>Message-id: <36B7BED0...@southern.co.nz>
>
>Dreitzes wrote:
>
[snip]
>Well he was not the only one to be talking that way. Every speech I've
>read concerning the ITM was of that flavour. Very provocative.
******************************************************************
I suppose there's little point in asking you to cite sources.
*******************************************************************
>Do you know how much actual trade went on there.
*******************************************************************
Do you know anything about the kind of institution the ITM was? It wasn't a
Wal-Mart.
*******************************************************************
We were argueing over
>the statements of that secretary of Shaw's and I think you said he only
>had one secretary.
******************************************************************
Yes, Shaw had one personal secretary. Shaw was only one of the numerous
executives at the ITM.
*******************************************************************
>Even Bannister seems to have had three or so, so it seems not a lot of
>work got done there.
*******************************************************************
This is really silly, Tony. You're basing everything you say about the ITM on
guesswork stemming from the conspiracy books you've read. Banister ran a small
office; Shaw was one executive in a large office complex.
******************************************************************
>The offices weren't filled with import/export companies either.
*****************************************************************
Really?
******************************************************************
From
>memory there were lawyers and even a CIA agent. Was it Gaudet?
******************************************************************
You tell me, Tony. Was Gaudet a CIA agent? Or was he publisher of the Latin
American Newsletter?
********************************************************************
>What I mean is it has the appearance of a front rather than a legitimate
>enterprise.
*******************************************************************
If you say so. Are you basing this judgment upon any primary sources
whatsoever?
*****************************************************************
>I also find it difficult to imagine to much panic concerning Communism
>in Latin America in those days.
*******************************************************************
Right. Cuba didn't even provoke a ripple. I think I'd better bail out of this
conversation here, Tony.
Take it easy,
Dave
Dreitzes
>Date: 2/2/99 7:28 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <79856r$5eq2$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
>
>>Shaw is obviously no bunny. He tells you in these recently quoted
>>speeches that he doesn't believe in free trade either.His idea of trade
>>is using it as a tool to wage economic warfare. Or rather I should say,
>>that is what he was employed for.
>talking
>>here about the public image of something deeper.
>
>
>>obvious but what this really means of course is that behind Gehlen will
>>have been Willoughby and the entire worldwide consortium of
>>anti-communist outfits.
>
>Do you include Dr. Robert Morris in that?
>Because if you do, I think you and I are driving the same highway.
>
>>paid for it, one group of which were based in Dallas.
>
>
>>that was based around former FBI men.
>>
>
>Shaw is small potatoes, undoubtedly picked out by Garrison to please
>Carlos Marcello (and who selected him for the same reasons you do).
>If you want to get back on the Dallas highway from Permindex, follow the
>car belonging to Paul Raigorodsky.
>
>.Clark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Do you always have to be so mysterious, Clark? Can't you just say what you
mean?
Dave
Jim Hargrove
Please forgive the off-topic response, but what do you think of Dale Meyers'
discovery of a second "Oswald" wallet at the Tippit murder scene?
FROM JOHN ARMSTRONG'S 11/98 NOVEMBER IN DALLAS SPEECH:
<QUOTE ON>
The last example of evidence alteration I will discuss is the most difficult
to follow. It involves the two Oswald wallets found in Oak Cliff and is
detailed in Dale Myers' new book _With Malice_. A wallet was found at the
scene of the Tippit murder by Dallas Police which contained identification for
Lee Harvey Oswald and Alik Hidell (SLIDE 18). Twenty minutes later a different
wallet was taken from Oswald's left rear pocket by Detective Paul Bentley
(RIGHT 7). This wallet, the "arrest wallet" also contained identification for
Lee Harvey Oswald and Alik Hidell. Both wallets remained in custody of the
Dallas Police from November 22nd until November 26th. Bentley turned over
Oswald's "arrest wallet" to Lt. Baker. The wallet and contents were kept in
this well worn envelope (SLIDE 19) in the property room until turned over to
the FBI. Photographs of the "arrest wallet" and contents were taken by the
Dallas Police on November 23rd and given to the FBI and Secret Service (SLIDE
20). The wallet found at the Tippit murder scene turned up in Captain Fritz's
desk drawer where it remained until November 27th.
On November 25th, Oswald's possessions were returned from Washington to be
inventoried and photographed. Here we begin to see how the FBI tampered with
the wallets. The FBI inventory listed two wallets--items #114 and #382 (SLIDE
21)--yet neither was "Oswald's arrest wallet" or the "wallet from Tippit
murder scene". These inventory sheets showed the wallets coming from the Ruth
Paine's house. But neither wallet was initialed by Dallas Police. Neither
wallet was listed on the Dallas Police handwritten inventory (SLIDE 22)
completed at Ruth Paine's house. Neither wallet was listed on the Dallas
Police typed inventory-which became Warren Commission exhibits (RIGHT 8).
Neither wallet was photographed among Oswald's possessions on the floor of the
Dallas Police station. Yet two wallets were listed on the FBI inventory--where
did they come from? Were they on the Dallas Police evidence film?
To answer that question, I looked at the two rolls of film returned to the
Dallas Police by the FBI. (Hold up Dallas Police film) Item #114 was listed
(SLIDE 23) as "brown billfold with Marine group photograph." But negative
#114 (RIGHT 9) showed only the Marine group photo. When a photograph is made
from this negative, the "brown billfold"--allegedly from Ruth Paine's
house--disappeared (SLIDE 24).
Item #382 (SLIDE 25) was listed on the FBI inventory as "red billfold and one
scrap of white paper with Russian script". But negative #382 (RIGHT 10)
showed only the paper with the Russian script. When a photograph is made from
this negative the "red billfold"--allegedly from Ruth Paine's
house--disappeared (SLIDE 26).
Both negatives were altered between the time the Dallas police turned over
their original undeveloped film to the FBI and the FBI returned copies of that
film to the police. Why cause the wallets in the original film to disappear?
Because the original photos taken by the Dallas Police were probably
photographs of the "arrest wallet" and the "Tippit murder scene wallet"--two
wallets which contained identification for Oswald and Hidell which would have
been unexplainable.
To find out what happened to "Oswald's arrest wallet" and the "Tippit murder
scene wallet" we must again look at the Dallas Police film. The 2nd roll of
film begins in the middle of negative #361 (SLIDE 27) and ends in the middle
of negative #451 (RIGHT 11). All of the negative images after #451, with one
exception, were ruined. The one exception is the negative image of a wallet
(SLIDE 28). When the negative image is developed into a photograph, you can
see that it is "Oswald's arrest wallet" (RIGHT 12). This wallet, along with
all other items in this film, were sent to Washington on November 26th....
Remember when I told you the Dallas Police were blamed for the 255 missing
negatives because of "faulty technique"? Does this look like faulty
technique? Or does this look like another example of the FBI splicing
together and tampering with the original Dallas Police film?
With the "Oswald arrest wallet" in Washington, the "Tippit murder scene
wallet" remained in Captain Fritz's desk drawer. On November 27th, James
Hosty picked up the "Tippit murder scene wallet" from Fritz and gave Fritz a
signed receipt (SLIDE 29). Hosty then took that wallet and other items
obtained from Fritz to the Dallas FBI office. According to Hosty, these items
were neither photographed nor inventoried. They were placed in a box and
flown to Washington by Warren DeBreuys. Two days later the Dallas Police
notified the FBI they had failed to photograph the wallet and contents and
wanted photos (RIGHT 13). The FBI ignored this request and never photographed
the "Tippit murder scene wallet". The only known photos of this wallet are
from WFAA newsreel film.
When the FBI finished altering Oswald's possessions, Hoover sent this March
1964 memo (SLIDE 30): "the Bureau has re-photographed all of the material in
possession of the Bureau and will send a complete set of these photographs to
you by separate mail". Included among the hundreds of new FBI photographs were
items #114 (SLIDE 31) and #382 (RIGHT 14). These two wallets were substituted
for "Oswalds arrest wallet" and the "Tippit murder scene wallet"....
There were also newly created FBI photographs of W-2 forms, each initialed by
FBI lab technician Robert Frazier as well as the newly created photograph of
the Minox light meter. These FBI photographs were received by the Dallas
Police in March, 1964. To complete the charade Hoover sent a new inventory
list. Hoover explained (SLIDE 32) "The inventory list submitted by your office
November 26, has been superseded by the list furnished to your office by the
FBI Laboratory dated February 1, 1964. The list submitted by your office is
incomplete and is not completely accurate". Hoover attempted to blame the
Dallas Police and his own Dallas field office for producing an "incomplete and
inaccurate" inventory. The list Hoover called incomplete and inaccurate is
Warren Commission exhibit #2003 (RIGHT 15).
One final thought on the physical evidence. The W-2 forms, the Minox camera,
and the wallets are a few examples of evidence alteration by the FBI. These
items were allegedly found at Ruth Paine's. Nearly all of the questionable
items of evidence including the backyard photos, the Mexico City bus ticket,
the Imperial Reflex camera, the two Klein Sporting Goods coupons, the Minox
camera and other questionable "items of evidence" came from the Paines. If we
had known in 1964 that over half of the original Dallas Police film
disappeared while at FBI headquarters, and that Dallas Police film had been
altered while in possession of the FBI, and that original items of evidence
were altered, then we would have demanded to know why the FBI was tampering
with evidence. If we had known Oswald owned a Minox spy camera, and if we had
known the police found two wallets in Oak Cliff with Oswald and Hidell
identification, then we would have asked a lot more questions about the
identity of Oswald.
<QUOTE OFF>
For those unfamiliar with John Armstrong's thesis, here is a synopsis:
JFK researcher John Armstrong has shown that the Warren Commission combined
the biographies of two different people to arrive at the classic legend of Lee
Harvey Oswald. One was a Russian speaking youth, possibly the child of
Hungarian parents. Mr. Armstrong notes that this person preferred to be
called "Harvey." The other was a taller but similar looking boy with a
Southern U.S. accent, born as "Lee Harvey Oswald," and who preferred to be
called "Lee." Both youths may well have become entangled at an early age in an
American intelligence operation designed to give a U.S. identity to a
Russian-speaking child. It was "Harvey" who traveled to Russia and was shot
dead by Jack Ruby. It was "Lee" who probably framed "Harvey" for the
assassination of JFK.
This stunning proposition was the subject of John Armstrong's famous
three-hour NID97 presentation entitled "Harvey and Lee." Jack White has
compiled an enormous amount of photographic evidence in support of the
multiple Oswald theory.
Many mysteries disappear when you accept the possibility that these three
words are true: "Lee framed Harvey."
--Jim Hargrove
Clark Wilkins
>>Shaw is small potatoes, undoubtedly picked out by Garrison to please
>>Carlos Marcello (and who selected him for the same reasons you do).
>>If you want to get back on the Dallas highway from Permindex, follow
the
>>car belonging to Paul Raigorodsky.
>>
>>.Clark
>
>Do you always have to be so mysterious, Clark? Can't you just say what
you
>mean?
>
>Dave
>
Pardon. Another fault of mine but this is an intentional one.
They say you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
I feel it's the same way here.
I can lead people to the evidence but I can't make them believe it.
But if they look the evidence up themselves without me having to tell
them where it goes, sometimes they can figure it out for themselves and
it's much easier for them to believe their own deductions than to believe
mine.
Look at it this way. You've posted your own theories and provided sites
for their review by others. Yet when you put it up for debate, what do
you find?
You find that a lot of the people who are arguing with you have never
read your theory.
If they had looked at the evidence you can have a meaningful debate. But
if they won't look, you can't.
If people want to debate me on something I've raised (In this case, Paul
Raigorodsky) they must first read the subject of my "mysterious" hint.
Otherwise, they have nothing to say which spares me a pointless debate
with the south end of a north bound horse. If they have read it (and one
need only open the WR to find about a hundred pages on him) then they can
make an intelligent query of me and we can have a meaningful exchange.
It saves a lot of grief. As an example, you've been trying to sell your
ideas on this site. I think you're right about Shaw. Yet how successful
have you been at getting the message across? I look at the titles of
some of these threads and you're not real popular right now. It looks to
me like you've not only been leading the horses to water, but trying to
force them to drink. My experience is that people don't like that.
Just a thought.
.Clark
Clark Wilkins
I understand Hosty is the source for the "Tippit murder" wallet. Has
anyone in Dallas law enforcement (Fritz, Curry, Wade, Alexander, etc.)
ever stated two wallets were found?
Just curious.
.Clark
Dreitzes
>Message-id: <79ae3m$4nmc$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
There's some ferocious irony here, but I'm afraid there's no one in the world
but myself who would appreciate it. Let's just say your point is well taken,
Clark.
Regards,
lminor
>>Club for want of a better term?
>
>I'm sure he had some connection to the club, but I was referring to his
>being George Bouhe's boss.
>
>>BTW, interesting that the Canadian Permidex financier also had big
>stock
>>holdings in Bell Hellicopter at that time. I allways wonder about that
>>secret Bell research dept. run by former Peenemunde 2IC Domberger and
>>which was where Michael Paine worked. Do you think the Canadian may
>have
>>been a member of the Petroleum Club?
>>
>>
>>Tony
>>
>
>Actually, Bronfman didn't own Bell Helicopter. That's a D Flat factoid.
>I'm very interested in Willoughby and his relationship with HL Hunt,
>Hargis, and Walker. Post something on him.
>
>.Clark
>
>
"Crichton background: The 1963 Dallas City telephone directory lists
Crichton as president of Nafco Oil & Gas, Inc. A short article on Page 26A
of the Dallas Morning News (February 16, 1975) identifies him as a
"millionaire oilman." Researcher Peter Dale Scott’s unpublished 1971 "The
Dallas Conspiracy," pp. III-16—17, notes that Crichton until 1962 "was also
a Vice-President of the Empire Trust Company, a firm whose leading
shareholders, the inter-related families of Loeb, Lehman and Bronfman, are
said by Stephen Birmingham to have maintained ‘something very like a private
CIA … around the world’ to protect their other investments such as in Cuba,
in Guatemala, and in General Dynamics." One of Empire Trust’s directors
was, Scott notes, Lewis W. MacNaughton—the employer of George Bouhe, one of
the first members of Dallas’s Russian community to meet Oswald."
Linda
Leo Sgouros
lminor wrote in message <79assd$3d0$1...@remarQ.com>...
It is fascinating how the marxist leaves the marxist paradise to return to
the waiting arms of the White Russian Petroleum Geologists, Right -wing
oilmen, and even shows up at Walker's speeches, all staunchly
anti-communist.
Yes I guess his deluded mind was causing him and his non-existent fpcc{like
the non-existentFact-finding committeeand CUSA and its connection to BLACK
RADIOPROPAGANDA}}to infiltrate the right wing like others.
sure.
whatever.
Such strange connections this nobody, this failure, this loner .
Jim Hargrove
>I understand Hosty is the source for the "Tippit murder" wallet. Has
>anyone in Dallas law enforcement (Fritz, Curry, Wade, Alexander, etc.)
>ever stated two wallets were found?
Not to my knowledge. Hosty alone made the charge (it is in his book) and it
was pretty much ignored until Dale Meyers located the WFAA newsreel footage,
which seems supportive.
HOWEVER, a signed receipt is included in the Warren exhibits showing that
Hosty picked up Oswald's walled from Fritz on November 27th, when Oswald's
(other) wallet was already in Washington. I can dig up the exhibit number if
you wish.
I didn't think you would question the existence of these two wallets, since
the evidence looks pretty strong to me. So, let's get back to the subject at
hand, as I am really curious about something.
A few messages back (this is from memory, so forgive me if I misrepresent your
position), I think you said that you believed Shaw was unaware of Permindex's
financial assistance to OAS, or at least the fact that the money would be used
to fund two DeGaulle assassination attempts. I asked what evidence you based
this on, and you indicated--I think--that there wasn't much. So now the
question is, what makes you think Shaw was unaware of this conspiracy?
Thanks again.
--Jim Hargrove
Clark Wilkins
>A few messages back (this is from memory, so forgive me if I
misrepresent your
>position), I think you said that you believed Shaw was unaware of
Permindex's
>financial assistance to OAS, or at least the fact that the money would
be used
>to fund two DeGaulle assassination attempts. I asked what evidence you
based
>this on, and you indicated--I think--that there wasn't much. So now
the
>question is, what makes you think Shaw was unaware of this conspiracy?
>
>Thanks again.
>
>--Jim Hargrove
Good question. I even stated it's entirely possible Shaw delivered the
money from Permindex to Maurice Gatlin that Gatlin delivered to Paris.
But I don't know that happened.
By way of comparison, let's look at we do know about Shaw's fellow
Permindex director, Jean DeMenil. DeMenil was also President of
Schlumberger Oil which stood to get some oil field service contracts in
Algeria if things there went their way. According, weapons traveled to
Schlumberger for delivery to the OAS. Later, these weapons were diverted
(with a key to the bunker) to Sergio Aracha Smith via David Ferrie,
Gordon Novel, etc. We all know the story.
It's possible to draw several conclusions from this. First, it reasons
DeMenil knew about the guns in his bunker and it was probably him who
provided a key to that bunker to the "burglars".
Second, the guns were probably CIA. We can say this because they were
diverted from Schlumberger to Banister for use by Smith who was one of
the anti-Castro boys CIA supported.
So it looks like DeMenil, who was George deMohrenschildt's good buddy, is
also buddy-buddy with the CIA. This is hardly a surprise since DeMenil
was elected to Permindex's board of directors from the Tolstoy Foundation,
which as we all know, is CIA supported.
Now John McAdams would probably scream bloody murder if we claim that
Permindex is a spook outfit, but the fact is that one of its directors
(DeMenil) seems to be in possession of CIA weapons on behalf of Permindex
activity. It's at least a clue that something spooky is going on.
However, where is Clay Shaw in this?
Can we connect him to these weapons?
No.
Can we connect him to the Tolstoy Foundation?
No.
Can we connect him to the OAS?
No.
Next, Clay Shaw represented a security problem. He was gay and the FBI
(and presumably the CIA) knew this. Shaw then could be exposed to
blackmail by foreign intelligence. We'd be stupid to use him.
Finally, there were three identifiable political voting blocks on
Permindex's board. Shaw was not a member of any of them. He fell in the
"independent" group (Which, incidentally, had the exact same number of
board votes as the other three groups). Shaw's appearance on the board
appears to be directly related to the fact that he knows how to run a
trade mart, something none of the other board members knew how to do. I
expect he was recommended and approved for this position by the CIA and
he probably reported back to them afterwards on what Permindex was doing.
This is almost SOP for the period. Back then if you put four
revolutionaries in a room you'd probably find three had CIA case officers,
the fourth was an FBI informer, and all four were informing on each
other. I'm sure it was that way at Permindex too. And I'm also sure
that the CIA knew and approved of what Permindex was doing (Hence, the
CIA weapons bound for the OAS). But I don't have evidence indicating
Shaw took a leadership role in any of these political activities. If you
have it. Let me know.
The path that leads to Dallas from Permindex is not Clay Shaw.
It's Paul Raigorodsky.
.Clark
Clark Wilkins
>"Crichton background: The 1963 Dallas City telephone directory lists
>Crichton as president of Nafco Oil & Gas, Inc. A short article on Page
26A
>of the Dallas Morning News (February 16, 1975) identifies him as a
>"millionaire oilman." Researcher Peter Dale Scott’s unpublished 1971
"The
>Dallas Conspiracy," pp. III-16—17, notes that Crichton until 1962 "was
also
>a Vice-President of the Empire Trust Company, a firm whose leading
>shareholders, the inter-related families of Loeb, Lehman and Bronfman,
are
>said by Stephen Birmingham to have maintained ‘something very like a
private
>CIA … around the world’ to protect their other investments such as in
Cuba,
>in Guatemala, and in General Dynamics." One of Empire Trust’s
directors
>was, Scott notes, Lewis W. MacNaughton—the employer of George Bouhe, one
of
>the first members of Dallas’s Russian community to meet Oswald."
>
>Linda
Nice post, Linda.
Linda is correct when she says that George Bouhe was an employee
(accountant) for Lewis W. MacNaughton ( MacNaughton, by the way, has some
interesting connections to INCA). But Bouhe also headed a Greek Church
funded by Paul Raigorodsky which was later accused of being a CIA front
by a major news publication.
.Clark
Dreitzes
>Message-id: <79d1bm$1s1u$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
>
>>
>>A few messages back (this is from memory, so forgive me if I
>misrepresent your
>>position), I think you said that you believed Shaw was unaware of
>Permindex's
>>financial assistance to OAS, or at least the fact that the money would
>be used
>>to fund two DeGaulle assassination attempts. I asked what evidence you
>based
>>this on, and you indicated--I think--that there wasn't much. So now
>the
>>question is, what makes you think Shaw was unaware of this conspiracy?
>>
>>Thanks again.
>>
>>--Jim Hargrove
>
>Good question. I even stated it's entirely possible Shaw delivered the
>money from Permindex to Maurice Gatlin that Gatlin delivered to Paris.
*****************************************************************
Dave Reitzes responds:
I've been trying to track down the source of this story, and it seems to be
Jerry Milton Brooks, who did not name Shaw or Permindex as being involved -- he
said Gatlin gave $100,000 directly to the OAS. Do you know of anything to
corroborate either Brooks' account or the one you describe?
********************************************************************
>But I don't know that happened.
>By way of comparison, let's look at we do know about Shaw's fellow
>Permindex director, Jean DeMenil. DeMenil was also President of
>Schlumberger Oil which stood to get some oil field service contracts in
>Algeria if things there went their way. According,
******************************************************************
DR responds:
I take it this is a typo. According to whom?
*******************************************************************
weapons traveled to
>Schlumberger for delivery to the OAS. Later, these weapons were diverted
>(with a key to the bunker) to Sergio Aracha Smith via David Ferrie,
>Gordon Novel, etc. We all know the story.
>It's possible to draw several conclusions from this. First, it reasons
>DeMenil knew about the guns in his bunker and it was probably him who
>provided a key to that bunker to the "burglars".
*******************************************************************
DR responds:
If David Blackburst is lurking, I hope he'll have something to say about this.
******************************************************************
******************************************************************
DR responds:
What a coincidence -- the very reason Shaw says he was brought in. That liar!
*******************************************************************
I
>expect he was recommended and approved for this position by the CIA and
>he probably reported back to them afterwards on what Permindex was doing.
*******************************************************************
DR responds:
Which -- pardon me if I'm beating a dead horse here -- is not exactly
consistent with the Schoenman/DiEugenio/Hargrove position that Shaw was a
promoter of Fascism, is it? But here's the thing -- Shaw ceased being an
informant in 1956 if we believe the documents. So does that mean that he was
not informing on Permindex in 1963 after all, or does it support the position
that he had been "promoted," so to speak -- or neither?
******************************************************************
> This is almost SOP for the period. Back then if you put four
>revolutionaries in a room you'd probably find three had CIA case officers,
> the fourth was an FBI informer, and all four were informing on each
>other. I'm sure it was that way at Permindex too. And I'm also sure
>that the CIA knew and approved of what Permindex was doing (Hence, the
>CIA weapons bound for the OAS).
*****************************************************************
DR responds:
Whoa! Wait a second. Are you talking about the Shlumberger cache? Could you
cite a source for that?
*******************************************************************
But I don't have evidence indicating
>Shaw took a leadership role in any of these political activities. If you
>have it. Let me know.
>The path that leads to Dallas from Permindex is not Clay Shaw.
>It's Paul Raigorodsky.
>
>.Clark
>
*******************************************************************
DR responds:
See -- that's MUCH better than before. (Though your point about letting people
learn for themselves, etc., is taken.)
Sorry for going off-topic, but if you have time, could you explain your theory
-- alluded to at a.a.jfk a few months ago -- about Oswald's stated plans to
move to the Northeast in the fall of '63? I think it's safe to say I've done my
share of Oswald research, and I don't see the significance of these statements.
Thanks,
Leo Sgouros
Clark Wilkins wrote in message
First the preacher that has access to OZ in Russia.
The church property Ferrie and others use outside NO
The lying itinerant preacher Oz sits next to on the bus.
Odio and McHann.
There is something ther, I swer.
Rave Ditzses
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
lminor
Leo Sgouros wrote in message ...
(accountant) for Lewis W. MacNaughton ( MacNaughton, by the way, has some
interesting connections to INCA). But Bouhe also headed a Greek Church
funded by Paul Raigorodsky which was later accused of being a CIA front by a
major news publication.
>>
>>.Clark
>>I am surprised this has gone no farther.
>First the preacher that has access to OZ in Russia.
>The church property Ferrie and others use outside NO
>The lying itinerant preacher Oz sits next to on the bus.
>Odio and McHann.
>There is something ther, I swer.
>
>Rave Ditzses
>>
++++++++
Lewis MacNaughton's partner, Everett DeGolyer, the famous geologist, who
spent his entire career working for the Pearson oil companies —and thus had
close ties to Lazard Brothers—was also a director of Dresser Industries. He
had begun his career employed by Mexican Eagle Oil Co., owned by Sir Weetman
Pearson, who called him to London in 1918 to sell Mexican Eagle to Royal
Dutch Shell. The proceeds from the sale were invested by Pearson in the
creation of a new oil company founded and operated by De Golyer in 1919
called Amerada (some years later merged into Amerada Hess). After he
retired from the oil business to become an owner of Saturday Review,
DeGolyer still maintained an office in Houston and was well-known in the
Houston and Dallas petroleum clubs frequented by George Bush and the
Liedtkes.
One of DeGolyer’s daughters married George C. McGhee, a U.S. State
Department official, who was present in May 1954 at the first Bilderberg
meeting with George Ball, David Rockefeller, Prince Bernhard of Holland and
Dr. Joseph Retinger. McGhee later served as a trustee of the Aspen
Institute for humanistic Studies, established by the Anglo-American
establishment to shape the "limits to growth" agenda.
Researcher Bruce Campbell Adamson of Santa Cruz, California, discovered a
copy of George DeMohrenschildt’s mid-1950s address book and set out to trace
what connections the people listed there had with the mysterious friend of
Lee Harvey Oswald. One portion of his work covers George McGhee, graduate
of Southern Methodist University, who was a 1938 Rhodes Scholar. In 1936,
according to Adamson, "McGhee attended a dinner with forty other German
Rhodes Scholars, and those in attendance included: Hitler’s finance
minister, Count Schwerin von Krosigk; and Hitler’s ambassador to London and
foreign minister, Joachim von Ribbentrop." Twenty-five years later McGhee
would become Ambassador to Germany after his appointment by JFK in 1963--at
the insistence of Lyndon Johnson. Between those years, McGhee served in the
Navy as liaison officer to General Curtis LeMay, then worked as an assistant
to Houstonian Will Clayton who was responsible for implementing the Marshall
Plan in Europe.
During World War II McGhee had been on the War Production Board and Combined
War Materials Board, later becoming coordinator for aid to Greece and Turkey
under Robert A. Lovett of the U.S. State Dept. He was appointed Ambassador
to Turkey in 1952. It was during his tenure that problems arose over
whether Aramco was entitled to tax concessions. McGhee negotiated with
Mossadegh in 1951 but was was unsuccessful in resolving the problem. By the
time he became Ambassador to Germany in March 1963, McGhee was the "number
three man" in the State Department, according to Adamson, and was "known to
be running the show in the Congo."
While in Dallas, in 1958 McGhee became president of the Dallas Council on
World Affairs which George Bush's friend and mentor Neil Mallon had founded
in 1951. McGhee was a director, however, as early as 1955—serving with his
father-in-law (DeGolyer), Judge Sarah T. Hughes (who gave LBJ the oath of
office), Robert Gerald Storey (Storey later became an attorney on the Warren
Commission staff), and others. In 1959 he headed Lyndon Johnson’s
presidential campaign committee in Dallas. Once Johnson became Kennedy’s
vice-president, McGhee was one man Johnson insisted on having appointed to a
high position in the State Department. Robert Kennedy called McGhee a "real
zero…one of the problems with the State Department.
In Vol. II of his manuscript, about George McGhee, Adamson states that
McGhee was a partner of Jack Crichton in some oil leases in Lincoln Parish,
Louisiana in 1954; in a March 12, 1954 letter to Crichton, McGhee disclosed
that he "had been talking to Jack Dougherty, the vice-president of Empire
Trust Company Oil and Natural Gas Department of New York City." McGhee’s
geologist, C.N. Valerius, estimated the oil and gas production to be worth
over $3 million at that time. Other parties who had an interest in the
lease included Crescent Production Co., Inc., attorney Harold F. Thompson
(Thompson & Knight in Dallas), Valerius himself, Southwest Natural
Production Co., Atlantic Refining Co., Lion Oil Co., and the Texas Pacific
Coal and Oil Co. The Bronfman family had been involved in Texas Pacific for
many years.
Linda
Leo Sgouros
lminor wrote in message <79df44$k0j$1...@remarQ.com>...
It is the only way it could survive.
The Elders of the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches knew, however, that in
the end the church will stand.
There is no doubt then, that the Greek Orthodox church would thus be
penetrated by CIA.The Russian and Greek Orthodox Church are one and the
same.
This is about as much as I will say on this subject but you are getting real
warm.
regards
Leo
ps
Bilderberg?
AAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Clark Wilkins
The French SDECE traced a $ 200,000 credit to Permindex's account from
BCI which they claimed was used against DeGaulle.
But was this the same $ 200,000 )less expenses) that Gatlin delivered to
France?
Don't know.
I assumed it was.
The time period fits.
>********************************************************************
>
>>But I don't know that happened.
>>By way of comparison, let's look at we do know about Shaw's fellow
>>Permindex director, Jean DeMenil. DeMenil was also President of
>>Schlumberger Oil which stood to get some oil field service contracts
in
>>Algeria if things there went their way. According,
>
>******************************************************************
>
>DR responds:
>
>I take it this is a typo. According to whom?
>
>*******************************************************************
>
Correction. "Accordingly,"
>weapons traveled to
>>Schlumberger for delivery to the OAS. Later, these weapons were
diverted
>>(with a key to the bunker) to Sergio Aracha Smith via David Ferrie,
>>Gordon Novel, etc. We all know the story.
>>It's possible to draw several conclusions from this. First, it reasons
>>DeMenil knew about the guns in his bunker and it was probably him who
>>provided a key to that bunker to the "burglars".
>
>*******************************************************************
>
>DR responds:
>
>If David Blackburst is lurking, I hope he'll have something to say about
this.
>
>******************************************************************
>
Have I made an error?
I would be greatly surprised if Shaw was not informing on Permindex. I
doubt though, that he was doing so via DCS. Had that occurred and say
Permindex successfully assassinated DeGaulle and somehow got caught at it,
CIA could be connected to the activity via Shaw. I would expect that
Shaw gave info to someone else who, in turn, passed it on to CIA. My
vote is for Guy Banister.
But that's just a guess.
If we look at the CIA/Mafia plots, the CIA tended to put a middleman
between themselves and the assassins (Maheu). I think they would do no
less here, particularly where there is no evidence the CIA controlled
Permindex.
>
>******************************************************************
>
>> This is almost SOP for the period. Back then if you put four
>>revolutionaries in a room you'd probably find three had CIA case
officers,
>> the fourth was an FBI informer, and all four were informing on each
>>other. I'm sure it was that way at Permindex too. And I'm also sure
>>that the CIA knew and approved of what Permindex was doing (Hence, the
>>CIA weapons bound for the OAS).
>
>*****************************************************************
>
>DR responds:
>
>Whoa! Wait a second. Are you talking about the Shlumberger cache? Could
you
>cite a source for that?
>
You need a cite for the weapons being bound for the OAS?
A cite does exist for that (If I can find it). The weapons were to be
delivered to the French Carribean Island of Martinique. The delivery was
canceled, possibly because of the Cuba situation, but more likely because
of problems between the OAS and CIA.
>*******************************************************************
>
>But I don't have evidence indicating
>>Shaw took a leadership role in any of these political activities. If
you
>>have it. Let me know.
>>The path that leads to Dallas from Permindex is not Clay Shaw.
>>It's Paul Raigorodsky.
>>
>>.Clark
>>
>*******************************************************************
>
>DR responds:
>
>See -- that's MUCH better than before. (Though your point about letting
people
>learn for themselves, etc., is taken.)
>
>Sorry for going off-topic, but if you have time, could you explain your
theory
>-- alluded to at a.a.jfk a few months ago -- about Oswald's stated plans
to
>move to the Northeast in the fall of '63? I think it's safe to say I've
done my
>share of Oswald research, and I don't see the significance of these
statements.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Dave
>
It becomes significant because Oswald had told Ruth Paine he was planning
to seek work in the Pennsylvania/Baltimore area (He had written letters
to that effect). Ruth arrived in New Orleans to drive them there (After
preceding them to the area on her own vacation). The original plan was
for her to pick up the Oswald's on September 20 but she did not actiually
arrive until 9/24. Yet instead of driving the Oswald's there, it was
agreed that Ruth would instead take Marina with her back to Dallas (She
being pregnant) and let Oswald go ahead on his own until he found a job.
Yet Oswald did not do this. He went to Mexico City instead and applied
for a Cuban visa. After that, he still failed to head to Washington DC
area (Baltimore) but arrived in Dallas. Here, both Marina and Ruth were
surprised by his arrival. There had been no plans for him to come to
Dallas.
Here is the connection. Let's assume that Oswald's intent in traveling
to the Washington DC area was to assassinate JFK. Yet while he was in
Mexico City, JFK's press announced its intention of going to Dallas.
IMMEDIATELY, Oswald changed his travel plans and, instead of heading to
DC, he headed to Dallas.
See the connection?
Now, if we look at the story that Richard Nagell gave, he was told he had
to kill Oswald to save JFK. He was to do this in New Orleans. The
pressure was for him to kill Oswald on 9/20/63. Nagell rejected the
order and, instead, drew a gun in a bank and got himself arrested. And
on what date? 9/20/63!
By "coincidence", this is the very date that Ruth Paine was to pick up
Oswald and take him to the DC area. Kind of like "last chance", huh?
Do you see the connection? Can you see why Nagell chose 9/20/63?
If so, you must ask yourself how Oswald, who couldn't read Spanish,
learned while he was in Mexico City that JFK had announced his planned
trip to Dallas? Obviously, I know the answer to that too.
This is all very basic stuff. It ain't hard. Now you can see why, the
day after Oswald arrives in Dallas, he begins to look for employment
along the three possible motorcade routes and why he takes the name "OH
Lee" the very day he obtains employment at TSBD.
As Sherlock Holmes would say, "It's elementary."
Have I lost you?
.Clark
Dreitzes
>Message-id: <79dqvt$1hog$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
******************************************************************
Dave Reitzes responds:
Bingo. Do we really have anything more to go on? Add to that the uncorroborated
nature -- as far as I can tell -- of Brooks' story, and you can probably see
why I'm hesitant to attach much significance to this episode.
******************************************************************
>>>But I don't know that happened.
>>>By way of comparison, let's look at we do know about Shaw's fellow
>>>Permindex director, Jean DeMenil. DeMenil was also President of
>>>Schlumberger Oil which stood to get some oil field service contracts
>in
>>>Algeria if things there went their way. According,
>>
>>******************************************************************
>>
>>DR responds:
>>
>>I take it this is a typo. According to whom?
>>
>>*******************************************************************
>>
>
>Correction. "Accordingly,"
>>weapons traveled to
>>>Schlumberger for delivery to the OAS.
*******************************************************************
What's your source for this?
*********************************************************************
Later, these weapons were
>diverted
>>>(with a key to the bunker) to Sergio Aracha Smith via David Ferrie,
>>>Gordon Novel, etc. We all know the story.
>>>It's possible to draw several conclusions from this. First, it reasons
>
>>>DeMenil knew about the guns in his bunker and it was probably him who
>>>provided a key to that bunker to the "burglars".
>>
>>*******************************************************************
>>
>>DR responds:
>>
>>If David Blackburst is lurking, I hope he'll have something to say about
>this.
>>
>>******************************************************************
>>
>Have I made an error?
>
*******************************************************************
I don't know, but David might. His research suggests that it was a genuine
burglary after all, and he believes Novel made up the entire story about both
being a CIA agent and being given a key to the bunker. I don't know all of
David's sources, but after a little skepticism, I found the possibility to be
quite valid after all. It certainly explains a lot of Novel's actions that seem
ridiculously careless otherwise.
******************************************************************
********************************************************************
Interesting. I guess I'll have to wait for Bill Davy's book to find out how
much evidence there is linking Shaw to Banister.
*******************************************************************
>If we look at the CIA/Mafia plots, the CIA tended to put a middleman
>between themselves and the assassins (Maheu). I think they would do no
>less here, particularly where there is no evidence the CIA controlled
>Permindex.
>
>>
>>******************************************************************
>>
>>> This is almost SOP for the period. Back then if you put four
>>>revolutionaries in a room you'd probably find three had CIA case
>officers,
>>> the fourth was an FBI informer, and all four were informing on each
>>>other. I'm sure it was that way at Permindex too. And I'm also sure
>>>that the CIA knew and approved of what Permindex was doing (Hence, the
>
>>>CIA weapons bound for the OAS).
>>
>>*****************************************************************
>>
>>DR responds:
>>
>>Whoa! Wait a second. Are you talking about the Shlumberger cache? Could
>you
>>cite a source for that?
>>
>
>You need a cite for the weapons being bound for the OAS?
*****************************************************************
Yes.
*******************************************************************
*******************************************************************
I believe he was planning to meet Oswald in Mexico City.
*******************************************************************
The
>pressure was for him to kill Oswald on 9/20/63.
*****************************************************************
Where do you get that date?
********************************************************************
Nagell rejected the
>order and, instead, drew a gun in a bank and got himself arrested. And
>on what date? 9/20/63!
>By "coincidence", this is the very date that Ruth Paine was to pick up
>Oswald and take him to the DC area. Kind of like "last chance", huh?
>Do you see the connection?
*****************************************************************
Not really. I see the connection between Nagell's story and Oswald's alleged
presence in Mexico City, and I believe I refer to that in the Nagell chapter of
my Oswald series. But I don't see the significance of the Pennsylvania/Maryland
thing. After all, Oswald could have visited the Northeast anytime he wanted.
Why would he bother to either plan a move there or announce such a move
(whether actually intended or not) when all he had to do was hop on a Greyhound
anytime he wanted to get to DC?
******************************************************************
Can you see why Nagell chose 9/20/63?
******************************************************************
I'm not sure what you mean -- that he originally chose 9/20/63 to kill Oswald,
or that he chose the date to take himself out of the action. According to him,
the assassination was planned for the following week; when else was he going to
do it?
*******************************************************************
>If so, you must ask yourself how Oswald, who couldn't read Spanish,
>learned while he was in Mexico City that JFK had announced his planned
>trip to Dallas?
******************************************************************
You're losing me. I don't know that any such thing happened. I'm not even
convinced Oswald was IN Mexico City.
********************************************************************
Obviously, I know the answer to that too.
>This is all very basic stuff. It ain't hard. Now you can see why, the
>day after Oswald arrives in Dallas, he begins to look for employment
>along the three possible motorcade routes and why he takes the name "OH
>Lee" the very day he obtains employment at TSBD.
>As Sherlock Holmes would say, "It's elementary."
>Have I lost you?
>
>
>.Clark
>
******************************************************************
I'm afraid so. How is that scenario any more likely than, say, the official
story -- that he came to Dallas because that's where his wife was?
Jim Hargrove
Thanks for the thoughtful post.
On 4 Feb 1999 20:53:10 GMT, NNX...@prodigy.com (Clark Wilkins) wrote:
>Good question. I even stated it's entirely possible Shaw delivered the
>money from Permindex to Maurice Gatlin that Gatlin delivered to Paris.
>But I don't know that happened.
But it seems a likely explanation. DeMenil lived in Texas, I believe,
although Schlumberger Wells had a branch office in New Orleans.
>By way of comparison, let's look at we do know about Shaw's fellow
>Permindex director, Jean DeMenil. DeMenil was also President of
>Schlumberger Oil which stood to get some oil field service contracts in
>Algeria if things there went their way. According, weapons traveled to
>Schlumberger for delivery to the OAS. Later, these weapons were diverted
>(with a key to the bunker) to Sergio Aracha Smith via David Ferrie,
>Gordon Novel, etc. We all know the story.
And we know how interested Garrison was in it.
>It's possible to draw several conclusions from this. First, it reasons
>DeMenil knew about the guns in his bunker and it was probably him who
>provided a key to that bunker to the "burglars".
OK.
>Second, the guns were probably CIA. We can say this because they were
>diverted from Schlumberger to Banister for use by Smith who was one of
>the anti-Castro boys CIA supported.
Sure.
>So it looks like DeMenil, who was George deMohrenschildt's good buddy, is
>also buddy-buddy with the CIA. This is hardly a surprise since DeMenil
>was elected to Permindex's board of directors from the Tolstoy Foundation,
> which as we all know, is CIA supported.
Is this from Flammonde or from your own independent research?
>Now John McAdams would probably scream bloody murder if we claim that
>Permindex is a spook outfit, but the fact is that one of its directors
>(DeMenil) seems to be in possession of CIA weapons on behalf of Permindex
>activity. It's at least a clue that something spooky is going on.
>However, where is Clay Shaw in this?
>Can we connect him to these weapons?
>No.
At least some of the loot from the Houma "raid" was stored at Banister's
office.
And we can probably connect Shaw at least to Banister, Ferrie, Quiroga,
Arcacha Smith--and Oswald--and 544 Camp Street. Novel went to bizarre lengths
to avoid Garrison's subpoena and to discredit the case. Are you familiar with
Novel's traveling dog and pony show during the Shaw investigation? Connally
helped Smith avoid extradition from Texas by prohibitting N.O. civil or
criminal prosecution. With Ferrie dead, the heart of Garrison's case was
gone. From a historical perspective, the lengths CIA defenders have gone to
on this newsgroup over the years to discredit Banister's secretary, Delphine
Roberts, is laughable.
>Can we connect him to the Tolstoy Foundation?
>No.
OK.
>Can we connect him to the OAS?
>No.
You mean other than the fact that Shaw was an officer of the company that
funded the OAS assassination attempts?
>Next, Clay Shaw represented a security problem. He was gay and the FBI
>(and presumably the CIA) knew this. Shaw then could be exposed to
>blackmail by foreign intelligence. We'd be stupid to use him.
An excellent point, and one that is often made about covert operatives. But
I'm not sure you can underestimate the sometimes stupid things that spy
bureaus can do. As a recent example, did no one at Langley realize that
Aldrich Ames was living far, far beyond his means? Even though Angleton's
paranoia no longer fueled mole hunts, wouldn't you think the CIA would be on
the lookout for this sort of thing?
Also, despite his homosexuality, we WERE using Shaw, at least on the "domestic
contact" side. Marchetti, and I think other Agency turncoats, have claimed
that Shaw had operational responsibilities.
>Finally, there were three identifiable political voting blocks on
>Permindex's board. Shaw was not a member of any of them. He fell in the
>"independent" group (Which, incidentally, had the exact same number of
>board votes as the other three groups). Shaw's appearance on the board
>appears to be directly related to the fact that he knows how to run a
>trade mart, something none of the other board members knew how to do. I
>expect he was recommended and approved for this position by the CIA and
>he probably reported back to them afterwards on what Permindex was doing.
That seems like a very logical reading. Had all this come out during the Shaw
trial, if nothing else, it would have represented a PR nightmare for Shaw and
his defense team. I would think that Judge Haggerty would have been
hard-pressed to find legal grounds to prevent evidence of Permindex/OAS
activity if Garrison had any potent ammunition, but, of course, it could have
never been permitted to happen.
I suppose people who believe in Shaw's essential innocence can point to this
sort of thing to explain all the extra-legal activity to derail the case.
Frankly, I'm skeptical, but I'm listening.
> This is almost SOP for the period. Back then if you put four
>revolutionaries in a room you'd probably find three had CIA case officers,
> the fourth was an FBI informer, and all four were informing on each
>other. I'm sure it was that way at Permindex too. And I'm also sure
Funny--and very true!
>that the CIA knew and approved of what Permindex was doing (Hence, the
>CIA weapons bound for the OAS). But I don't have evidence indicating
>Shaw took a leadership role in any of these political activities. If you
>have it. Let me know.
I don't have it. But I think you dismiss some of the circumstantial evidence
too quickly. I'm not going to take the time to research this, so please
correct me if you see anything terribly wrong, and I realize that the
following gets a little breathless....
1. Upon returning to office (1959?), deGaulle almost immediately
and surprisingly supports Algerian independence, much to the
dismay of French colonialists.
2. Soon after his inaugurations, President Kennedy voices
support for deGaulle's position. From the events that follow,
we can assume that at last some people in the CIA are enraged by
this policy.
3. $200K in 1962 is more like a million dollars today--a
substantial amount of money. By comparison, Shaw's ITM salary
was $25K/yr. An officer of a business willing to part with
that amount of cash should be expected to know something about
the disbursement. Permindex was not General Motors.
4. Guy Banister and Maurice Gatlin (and Banister's ACLC)
were New Orleans-based. Shaw was the only Permindex director
living in New Orleans. Therefore, Shaw is the most likely
conduit for the first leg of the Permindex funds bound for OAS.
Novel and Ferrie add munitions to the mix.
5. For reasons I don't like thinking about, at least some people
at the CIA were aware of this and allowed and probably assisted
in the assassination attempts made by OAS on deGaulle.
6. Soon after the Bay of Pigs fiasco, President Kennedy issues a
couple of NSAMs (56 and 57 or 58, I think) attempting to take away
covert ops from the CIA and handing them to the JCS. The evidence
indicates this is unsuccessful but....
7. Although always couched in terms of victory, by 1963 Kennedy
and his aides are talking about ending another long-term struggle
with colonial roots, this time in S.E. Asia. At around the same
time, the doomed president is establishing back channels to Castro
and Cuba to normalize relations with that nation.
8. In the summer of 1963 in New Orleans, some of the very same
players from the OAS support team are seen by numerous
witnesses--and hotly disputed for decades--as taking part in an
operation that can easily be read as an attempt to sheep dip the
soon-to-be putative assassin of JFK.
9. For the next three and a half decades, so far, whenever a
possible New Orleans connection to the assassination of JFK is
explored, be it the Garrison case or Oliver Stone's "JFK," or
posts to this newsgroup, massive propaganda efforts are made to
dismiss them. The same can be said for any conspiratorial
connection to the case, of course, but old hands, at least around
here, can feel the difference.
Obviously, the devil is in the details, as well as anything resembling proof.
Despite the fact that efforts to dismiss the potential existence of a New
Orleans connection to the assassination always entails discrediting many
eyewitnesses, I try to remain open to other possibilities, perhaps not very
successfully. It may be true that, even if Shaw is essentially innocent,
intel-related propaganda could be cued by assaults against him, but my own
opinion, one held since I read _Heritage of Stone_ as a youth, was that
Garrison had the tiger by the tail--and was devoured by it.
>The path that leads to Dallas from Permindex is not Clay Shaw.
>It's Paul Raigorodsky.
I'll keep your opinion very much in mind. I'm also very, very interested in
Charles Willoughby.
--Jim Hargrove
Clark Wilkins
>>CIA weapons bound for the OAS). But I don't have evidence indicating
>>Shaw took a leadership role in any of these political activities. If
you
>>have it. Let me know.
>
>I don't have it. But I think you dismiss some of the circumstantial
evidence
>too quickly. I'm not going to take the time to research this, so
please
>correct me if you see anything terribly wrong, and I realize that the
>following gets a little breathless....
>
> 1. Upon returning to office (1959?), deGaulle almost immediately
> and surprisingly supports Algerian independence, much to the
> dismay of French colonialists.
True.
> 2. Soon after his inaugurations, President Kennedy voices
> support for deGaulle's position.
True.
> From the events that follow,
> we can assume that at last some people in the CIA are enraged by
> this policy.
My research finds no opposition at all within CIA. That doesn't mean it
wasn't there. But my evidence shows CIA did everything they were
instructed to do and did it very well.
> 3. $200K in 1962 is more like a million dollars today--a
> substantial amount of money. By comparison, Shaw's ITM salary
> was $25K/yr. An officer of a business willing to part with
> that amount of cash should be expected to know something about
> the disbursement. Permindex was not General Motors.
True.
> 4. Guy Banister and Maurice Gatlin (and Banister's ACLC)
> were New Orleans-based. Shaw was the only Permindex director
> living in New Orleans. Therefore, Shaw is the most likely
> conduit for the first leg of the Permindex funds bound for OAS.
> Novel and Ferrie add munitions to the mix.
I agree Shaw's living in New Orleans is handy for this but we can't state
he did this as a fact.
> 5. For reasons I don't like thinking about, at least some people
> at the CIA were aware of this and allowed and probably assisted
> in the assassination attempts made by OAS on deGaulle.
True.
> 6. Soon after the Bay of Pigs fiasco, President Kennedy issues a
> couple of NSAMs (56 and 57 or 58, I think) attempting to take away
> covert ops from the CIA and handing them to the JCS. The evidence
> indicates this is unsuccessful but....
>
> 7. Although always couched in terms of victory, by 1963 Kennedy
> and his aides are talking about ending another long-term struggle
> with colonial roots, this time in S.E. Asia. At around the same
> time, the doomed president is establishing back channels to Castro
> and Cuba to normalize relations with that nation.
>
> 8. In the summer of 1963 in New Orleans, some of the very same
> players from the OAS support team are seen by numerous
> witnesses--and hotly disputed for decades--as taking part in an
> operation that can easily be read as an attempt to sheep dip the
> soon-to-be putative assassin of JFK.
True. And I don't think this is by accident.
However, you are taking two people (Shaw and Raigorodsky) and making them
into one.
As I stated in my last post, I don't think Shaw's a member of the OAS
support team. I do agree he's a member of the CIA support team assigned
to Permindex. But there's a difference between being a passive observer
and an active participant. The OAS never heard of, or met with, Clay
Shaw.
I do agree that Shaw's name has arisen in connection with two CIA
operations so he's not just DCI. Yet it would be stupid to include Shaw
routinely in operations due to his gay background and the risk that
Permindex might get caught overseas at any time (As CMC did in Italy)
which could cause them to be linked to Shaw/Permindex. I know you could
consider the CIA to be stupid but at times they are amazingly brilliant.
They really don't have a lot of failures.
But you can link Permindex to Oswald. When Oswald arrived in Dallas
in 1962 he was IMMEDIATELY befriended by George deMohrenschildt and
George Bouhe, two associates of Permindex director Paul Raigorodsky (Who
had extensive business dealings in Dallas). They were not just "friends"
with Raigorodsky. He was practically their boss. Raigorodsky funded
Bouhe's Greek Orthodox Church and deMohrenschildt was constantly writing
Raigorodsky in the hopes of including him in his Haiti operation (With
another Permindex director, Jean DeMenil).
Then when Oswald leaves Dallas, where does he go?
He goes to New Orleans, home of Permindex director Clay Shaw where he
seems to be handled by the same people as handled Permindex's weapons
bound for the OAS.
So you can make an Oswald connection with Permindex if you want.
> 9. For the next three and a half decades, so far, whenever a
> possible New Orleans connection to the assassination of JFK is
> explored, be it the Garrison case or Oliver Stone's "JFK," or
> posts to this newsgroup, massive propaganda efforts are made to
> dismiss them. The same can be said for any conspiratorial
> connection to the case, of course, but old hands, at least around
> here, can feel the difference.
>
>Obviously, the devil is in the details, as well as anything resembling
proof.
>Despite the fact that efforts to dismiss the potential existence of a
New
>Orleans connection to the assassination always entails discrediting
many
>eyewitnesses, I try to remain open to other possibilities, perhaps not
very
>successfully. It may be true that, even if Shaw is essentially innocent,
>intel-related propaganda could be cued by assaults against him, but my
own
>opinion, one held since I read _Heritage of Stone_ as a youth, was that
>Garrison had the tiger by the tail--and was devoured by it.
It might have helped him if he had some evidence at Shaw's trial.
>>The path that leads to Dallas from Permindex is not Clay Shaw.
>>It's Paul Raigorodsky.
>
>I'll keep your opinion very much in mind. I'm also very, very
interested in
>Charles Willoughby.
>
>--Jim Hargrove
Me too. Tell me what you've got on him?
Did he know George deMohrenschildt? I'm convinced he did.
Did he know CD Jackson? Senator Eastland? Julian Sourwine? Bringuier?
Did he know anyone at Permindex?
Or did he just run around with the fruitcake crowd (Walker and Hargis)?
.Clark
Dreitzes
>Message-id: <79fmh5$74c2$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
>
>
Jim Hargrove wrote:
>> 3. $200K in 1962 is more like a million dollars today--a
>> substantial amount of money. By comparison, Shaw's ITM salary
>> was $25K/yr. An officer of a business willing to part with
>> that amount of cash should be expected to know something about
>> the disbursement. Permindex was not General Motors.
>
>True.
>
Irrelevant, but true.
>> 4. Guy Banister and Maurice Gatlin (and Banister's ACLC)
>> were New Orleans-based. Shaw was the only Permindex director
>> living in New Orleans. Therefore, Shaw is the most likely
>> conduit for the first leg of the Permindex funds bound for OAS.
>> Novel and Ferrie add munitions to the mix.
>
>I agree Shaw's living in New Orleans is handy for this but we can't state
>he did this as a fact.
>
We can't call it anything less than wild speculation. The only evidence for
Gatlin delivering money to the OAS in the first place -- unless Mr. Hargrove is
holding out on us -- is Jerry Milton Brooks, who said Gatlin told him about it,
got the dollar amount wrong, and did not name Shaw or Permindex as having
anything to do with it -- said the money came from the ACL, as a matter of
fact. By then Gatlin was dead and could not confirm or deny any of the details
or whether it happened at all.
Meanwhile, I hope David Blackburst will post some of his information on the
Houma heist, just as I hope you, Clark, will cite a source linking Permindex to
the Houma arms cache. (Not -- I hope -- Robert Morrow.)
Dave Reitzes
Jim Hargrove
>Jim Hargrove wrote
>>Garrison had the tiger by the tail--and was devoured by it.
>It might have helped him if he had some evidence at Shaw's trial.
Our federal government could have helped him--which *MIGHT* have led to a
solution to the crime. Do you disagree?
>>>The path that leads to Dallas from Permindex is not Clay Shaw.
>>>It's Paul Raigorodsky.
>>
>>I'll keep your opinion very much in mind. I'm also very, very
>>interested in Charles Willoughby.
>Me too. Tell me what you've got on him?
Virtually nothing specific beyond where Russell pushed the ball in TMWKTM,
and Russell called it "circumstantial evidence at best," if memory serves.
>Or did he just run around with the fruitcake crowd (Walker and Hargis)?
Well, he at least did that. And sometimes the fruit can be nicely
displayed, as it was in the following early 1995 a.c.jfk post, which
mentions Willoughby only in passing, but does a damned fine job displaying
the still life of fruit, circa the the Kennedy era. . . .
<QUOTE ON>
From j...@cbvox1.cb.att.com Fri, 3 Feb 1995 16:51:46 GMT
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From: j...@cbvox1.cb.att.com (Joe Knapp)
Subject: German Cheesecake
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The story of Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler (1881-1940), discussed here of late,
is similar in many ways to that of Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker (1909-1993),
born a generation later. Both were men who had risked their lives in
fierce combat, and later got into trouble with politicians for being
outspoken. For example, Butler was nearly court-martialed for criticizing
a foreign head of state, Benito Mussolini, in a public speech. Regardless
of the sympathy the public might have had for Butler's sentiments, the
rule is "military men shall not speak out on matters of policy." This is
to prevent politicization of the military services. Likewise, Gen. Walker
was "admonished" by the Kennedy Administration for criticizing Eleanor
Roosevelt and other public figures, and for more or less publicly
opposing New Frontier policies. Walker lost his command over this incident
and later resigned, entering the field of ultraconservative politics,
the States Rights Party, and anti-integration groups.
Obviously, there are significant differences between the two men, notably
that Walker was far right, and Butler was associated with leftist groups.
Also, Walker was arguably mentally unbalanced. Butler's positions seemed
much more grounded in reality, and less reactionary. We have Butler to thank
for unmasking a coup attempt against the FDR Administration in 1934,
covered in the book by Jules Archer, _The Plot to Seize the White House_,
and the book by Hans Schmidt, _Maverick Marine_. Archer says in his book
that the real 1934 plot was the inspiration for the 1962 fiction book
_Seven Days in May_, which was one of President Kennedy's favorite books.
Kennedy offered the White House to use as a set for the filming of the
movie version because he felt the film would serve as "a warning to the
nation." When asked if he felt that military would would ever take
such a step (a coup), Kennedy replied, "I know a couple who might wish
they could." [see Sorensen, _Kennedy_]
_Seven Days in May_ may very well have been partially inspired by the
1934 plot, but according to co-author Fletcher Knebel, the main inspiration
came from another incident:
I was walking past the White House one night, thinking of the young
President there, and thinking of the General Walker case [Maj. Gen.
Edwin A. Walker, relieved of command by President Kennedy in a dispute
over his indoctrinating his troops with views of the John Birch
Society] and thought of our own history, why it never happened that
we had a military plot against the government. Then I thought it would
make a good story to pretend it did happen and in that way to show
why it could never succeed in the United States. Barry Goldwater had
nothing to do with things in my mind.
Knebel is a bit disingenuous with that explanation, seeing as how the
military plot in his book was only uncovered through a good deal of luck.
So his "it can never happen here" position seems like wishful thinking,
the same kind that ascribes assassinations to "lone nuts" rather than
conspiratorial plots. Also, he made this statement after the Kennedy
assassination, to quell rumours that that the same right wing such as
he portrayed in his book had offed Kennedy, and that he saw Barry
Goldwater as part of this milieu.
As with the plot exposed by Butler, the position of the print media in
general seemed to be that as a fictional "what-if," such stories are
fine, but when they start to bubble into reality, the media will not
touch them with a ten-foot pole, instead preferring ridicule and
dismissal. The mainstream media do, at least. Thus, when Butler aired
his coup expose to the McCormack-Dickstein Committee in 1934, The New
York Times discounted him, and Time magazine, as is its sophomoric
wont, leaned toward caricature and ridicule. When Butler's expose
ultimately proved true, both the NYT and Time printed almost
insignificant acknowledgements of that fact, along the lines of
a one-sentence "correction." There is no shame in those quarters.
It was left to lesser tabloids like the Philadelphia Inquirer to
cover the story in full.
Along these lines, it's interesting to trace the way that Gen. Walker came
to be sacked by President Kennedy, which involved the English-language
"yellow press" in Germany. Walker had many allies in the burgeoning far
right in the early 1960s. Senator Strom Thurmond (Democrat--South Carolina)
fumed on the Senate floor:
Mr. THURMOND: Mr. President, on several occasions lately there have
been discussions on the Senate floor with reference to the
anti-anti-communist campaign which is focused on our Military
Establishment with a view toward discrediting and rendering ineffective
our military personnel and particularly our military leaders. Early in
the campaign, a smear campaign was commenced against Maj. Gen. Edwin
Walker, former commander of the 24th Division in Europe, by a slander
sheet called the Overseas Weekly.
That's from the Congressional Record--Senate, 1961, page 17547. Thurmond
inserted some press articles in the record.
One article, appearing in the Chicago Sunday Tribune, Aug. 20, 1961,
lauded Gen. Walker and bitterly commented on a speech that Walker had
given in Chicago to the remnants of his WWII 1st Special Service Force,
who were the forerunners of today's Green Berets:
Not once in General Walker's speech did he identify the enemy or
mention communism, for that would have violated the Kennedy
Administration's ban on anti-Communist talks by military leaders.
The Tribune article quoted Ohio Senator Frank J. Lausche:
If our military leaders, in speaking to their men, make a mistake,
I want the mistake to be too much and not too little about the
virtues of our country and the evils of communism. I want our
military men to speak up because they know the nature of the enemy
and are better prepared than anyone else to discuss the evils of
communism. We have had too much soft speaking on communism by pinks
and near Communists.
The Tribune also got their digs in on the Overseas Weekly, the tabloid
which first broke the story of Walker's "pro-blue" troop indoctrination
program, where in between speeches on the "Care and Maintenance of the
Human Machine" and discussion of the evils of loose morals and venereal
disease, Walker would launch into more frank diatribes against the
policies of the Kennedy Administration and public figures deemed
sympathetic to it. Said the Tribune:
The Overseas Weekly, a scandal sheet circulated to the troops in
Germany, attacked General Walker's orientation program, charging
that he was using material supplied by the John Birch Society.
The same publication charged that General Walker had said Eleanor
Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, and Dean Acheson were "definitely pink"
and that Edward R. Murrow, Walter Cronkite, and Eric Sevareid,
radio-television commentators, were pro-Communist.
The article also quoted a recent memo by Kennedy ally Senator William
Fulbright:
It would be extremely dangerous, Fulbright said, "if the military is
infected with the virus of rightwing radicalism." "In the long run,"
he added, "it is quite possible that the principal problem of
leadership will be, if it is not already, to restrain the desire of
the people to hit the Communists with everything we've got,
particularly if there are more Cubas or Laoses.
An article in the far-right New York Journal-American, Aug. 15, 1961 noted:
Last May, General Walker filed a suit charging libel and slander
against Siegfried W. Nanjocks, a German reporter of the Overseas
Weekly, who also was connected with at least one of the Walker
articles.
In his suit the general charges that Nanjocks, in the presence of
American soldiers, called him a sick man.
Sen. Thurmond is quoted by the Journal-American as saying:
Possibly the beginnings of the attack [on General Walker] other
than in Pravda itself, was with a slander sheet called the Overseas
Weekly, which apparently has as its primary purpose the general
discrediting of U.S. servicemen and their leadership in Europe,
particularly those of the 24th Infantry Division. ...
It is significant that although the Overseas Weekly has been charged
with being subversive by many persons, the only investigation has
been directed at General Walker and not the vicious slander sheet,
which dances to the tune of leftwing causes and gives its most
prominent display to 'girlie cheesecake' pictures and sensational
GI crimes in its publication area, so near the Iron Curtain.
Sen. John Tower chimed in with support for Thurmond's Senate floor
comments:
Mr. TOWER: Mr. President, I thank the distinguished Senator from
South Carolina for his very important, significant, and appropriate
remarks. I wish to note that the Overseas Weekly to which he referred,
which contained the charges against General Walker and which were the
basis for his relief from command, is the sort of newspaper which
ought not to be circulated among American troops. It is full of sexy
pictures, crime stories, and liquor ads. It is typical of newspapers
which are circulated among our troops in West Germany under the
auspices of Stars and Stripes.
_The Man Who Knew Too Much_ by Dick Russell (Carroll & Graf, 1992),
quotes Walker's opinion that Overseas Weekly was "immoral, unscrupulous,
corrupt, and destructive." Russell also talks of Birch Society honcho
Prof. Revilo Pendleton Oliver's testimony to the Warren Commission:
Oliver then launched into a heavy-duty attack on the CIA, speculating
that the agency was behind the funding of the Frankfurt-based
_Overseas Weekly_...
Now Oliver may not be the best judge of what would entail CIA involvement
in Overseas Weekly, seeing as how he thought that the distinction between
the CIA and Soviet secret police was "just a matter of bookkeeping anyway."
In Oliver's world, every US agency, from the State Department to the CIA,
was loaded with Communists. Not to say he didn't find soul-mates in those
organizations. Howard Hunt and Oliver would no doubt get along famously.
Certainly the possibility of of government types exerting influence through
the "scandal sheet" tabloid is not as far-fetched as might be thought at
first. And wasn't the most notorious tabloid today, the National Enquirer,
started by an ex-CIA agent named Generoso Pope? But at least he was ex!
Note that Sen. Tower said that Overseas Weekly was published under
the auspices of Stars and Stripes. This is true. But the Walker stories
were along the lines of the type of stories that the Army, which
oversaw the Stars and Stripes operation, sought to suppress, not push.
Oliver's comments were in the tradition of the far right who held that
there were other, communist or crypto-communist, influences on the
staffs of the GI tabloids.
The history of Stars and Stripes is covered in _The Stars and Stripes_
by Ken Zumwalt (Eakin Press, 1989). Zumwalt was on the staff of the
paper from 1944-1955. The European edition was started April 18, 1942
for the American troops in Northern Ireland. A Tokyo edition was
started October 3, 1945. Zumwalt notes:
Neither carries advertising, so the newspapers pose little
financial threat to English-language publications overseas.
How can the two military papers exist without the advertising
dollar? The answer: both are subsidized.
The paper sold for 15 cents but cost 25 cents to produce. To make it
up for the publishers, the US military gave Star and Stripes exclusive
rights to sell American magazines and books on overseas military
bases, in the PXs, for a 40 percent markup. The Tokyo paper had no
such arrangement, and relied directly on US taxpayer subsidies.
The paper could not be purchased off military bases, so it can be seen
as a paper for and by the US soldiers, of which there were 400,000 in
Europe. As might be expected, this implied a great deal of editorial
control. But the evidence is that the staff was continually trying to
rebel against this censorship, and provide unfiltered news and entertainment
to its readers. In one dispute described by Zumwalt, the staff of the
Honolulu edition issued a statement in 1946 objecting to the level of
Army censorship:
From the moment of its inception, the Pacific edition of _The
Stars and Stripes_ has never enjoyed the privilege of a free
press, even by Army standards. It has, through open and implied
pressure on it, been forced to delete, destroy and play down news
to serve personal and professional interests of the Army hierarchy,
and in many instances officers generally.
No doubt the staff was feisty, but even here it can be seen that
stories about individuals among the brass were suppressed, much as the
Overseas Weekly came under fire for its treatment of Walker. Red-baiting
of the Stars and Stripes staff (as Thurmond did with Overseas Weekly) was
not unknown as well. When charges of communism were made against two
staff members in 1946, Gen. MacArthur had them removed for problems with
their "discretion and integrity." Maj. Gen. Charles Willoughby, MacArthur's
intelligence chief, spoke in Honolulu about the "wholesale infiltration
of Communists into key Army positions, especially on Army newspapers."
Of the two fired staff members, Willoughby said, "How and where they
were placed was part of a prearranged plan. We know both Pettus and Rubin
are labor agitators belonging to the most radical of Communist
organizations." Thus began recurring charges among the right wing (as
with Thurmond's comments on the Overseas Weekly) that the Stars and
Stripes was infiltrated by communists.
Besides debasing the enlisted man's morals and morale with exposes on
military crimes (including petty crime) and corruption, The Stars and
Stripes began what later became known in Rupert Murdoch's tabloid
publishing empire as the "page four girl." According to Zumwalt:
Readers of _The Stars and Stripes_ were given generous helpings of
cheesecake during the war and the immediate postwar years. Editors...
used at least one picture daily of a scantily-clad young woman...
Archbishop Aloisus J. Muench felt compelled to protest to the
editor in chief, August 15, 1954:
Pictures of scantily clad women incite lust and lewdness and thus
get to be a cause of debasing standards of moral conduct. Beyond a
question of such pictures, bordering on the pornographic, degrade
the fine sentiments of high regard for women that it took centuries
of civilization to build up... they debauch the life of young men
in the Armed Forces away from the finer protective influences of a
good father and mother.
The Stars and Stripes was published at The London Times. In _The Story
of the Times_, the authors write:
[Times manager] Mr. [C. S.] Kent's worry was that too many pictures
chosen by the Americans for publication in the paper--pictures of
girls in the very near nude--were in his opinion too near the
knuckle.
Says Zumwalt, "Too near the knuckle indeed."
On Feb, 26, 1948, Rep. George A. Dondero (R-Michigan) charged that
The Stars and Stripes published "pro-Soviet, pro-Communist, and
anti-American" stories. He continued:
Whether this is the result of sheer stupidity or the machinations
of a Communist clique in the American Military Government, or both,
is for our Department of the Army to find out and act upon.
Among the paper's features that right wingers found objectionable were
the cartoons of Bill Mauldin, one of which depicted a young man
demanding that the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC)
investigate "professional bigots" and the KKK. The Committee spokesman
replied, "Investigate them? Heck, that's mah posse."
Dondero named ten people in the War Department whom he said had Communist
backgrounds or leanings. One of those accused was Josiah E. Dubois, chief
prosecutor at Nuremberg of twenty-four I. G. Farben cartel executives.
When Rep. Claire Booth Luce (R-Conn.) visited the European Theater of
Operations towards the close of the war, the Paris edition of Stars
and Stripes called her trip a "junket." Zumwalt says that shortly
afterward "word came down from the 'ivory tower' to the copy desk that
we were not to use the word 'junket' in articles about congressional
inspection tours."
So it can be seen that The Stars and Stripes shared the attributes
ascribed to the Overseas Weekly by Thurmond, Tower, and others.
That is no coincidence. According to Zumwalt:
The _Overseas Weekly_ was the brainchild of Air Force Maj. James
A. Ziccarelli, of Carmichael, Pennsylvania, and he launched the
twenty-eight page publication May 14, 1950, to give the troops
in Europe "a touch of home--away from home." ...
After determining that _The Stars and Stripes_ could set the type
and print the weekly as well as distribute it on the [PX] newsstands,
Ziccarelli obtained a license from USAEUR [US Army, Europe] to go
into business.
As the Korean War heated up, Ziccarelli was called up from the reserves
and was forced to sell Overseas Weekly to two recent Stanford graduates
traveling in Europe, Cecil and Marion von Rospach. They were from
California. According to Zumwalt:
Cecil found a job as news chief for the USAFE [US Air Force, Europe]
public information office in Wiesbaden and later switched to the
State Department as information officer with the U.S. Information
Agency in Frankfurt. ... Marion learned of Ziccarelli's attempt to
sell his paper. She talked it over with Cecil, and he was all for
buying it, but because of his government job his role was that of
silent partner. No problem: Marion, who had been an editor on the
_Stanford Daily_, was more than capable. ...
In 1953 she published a series of articles written by Christine
Jorgensen, the ex-GI George Jorgensen who underwent a sex change
in Denmark. It was a graphic tale and the paper's sales soared. ...
Because of the sexual slant, GI readers were soon calling the paper
the _Oversexed Weekly_, and this and the Jorgensen-Ward series
didn't amuse the army. On May 5, 1953, USAEUR yanked Marion von
Rospach's license to print and distribute through _The Stars and
Stripes_. ...
Publication of the Jorgensen-Ward articles was the army's excuse
for a ban, but what really irritated the colonels and generals
was the newspaper's practice of reporting court-martials,
especially those in which GIs were involved in sex crimes. Lurid
details of what this or that fraulein was or was not wearing at
the scene of the crime titillated the weekly's readers, and
circulation jumped to 40,000 a week.
The army wrote, "It has been evident that the _Overseas Weekly_ no
longer serves the purpose for which it was licensed, i.e., to advance
the education and enhance the morale of the U.S. Army personnel."
_Newsweek_ reported in its May 8, 1953 issue that "spunky Marion von
Rospach, 27, had taken on the U.S. Army and is in Washington seeking
a court order to block the army's action." Rospach complained, "I
can't believe that the Army wants to kill an independent, free
American paper. We are being run out of business. This is an
encroachment on the concept of freedom of the press."
She ultimately won her fight. _Time_ magazine noted, "she fast-talked
a few congressmen into getting the ban lifted."
The battles between the GI tabloids and the military establishment
have continued up to the present day. After a story touching on
homosexuality was censored from Stars and Stripes in 1984, Ken
Zumwalt received the following letter:
Dear Kenneth:
You can bet I will keep the pressure on until we find some way
to relax these censorship efforts by higher command. It is
absolutely intolerable in a free society.
Sincerely,
William Proxmire, U. S. S.
On May 4, 1987, Senator Proxmire introduced a bill calling for an
investigation into censorship by the military of the Stars and Stripes.
---
Joe Knapp
<QUOTE OFF>
--Jim Hargrove
Tony Pitman
> >>that the CIA knew and approved of what Permindex was doing (Hence,
> the
>
> >>CIA weapons bound for the OAS). But I don't have evidence
> indicating
> >>Shaw took a leadership role in any of these political activities.
> If
> you
> >>have it. Let me know.
> >
> >I don't have it. But I think you dismiss some of the circumstantial
> evidence
> >too quickly. I'm not going to take the time to research this, so
> please
> >correct me if you see anything terribly wrong, and I realize that the
>
> >following gets a little breathless....
> >
> > 1. Upon returning to office (1959?), deGaulle almost
> immediately
> > and surprisingly supports Algerian independence, much to the
> > dismay of French colonialists.
>
> True.
And more to the dismay of the actual colonials themselves.
Now this is something that really stands out as strange. I would have
thought that the crowd in the Pentagon would have been jumping for joy
over this.
MacArthur's minions, Willoughby and Co had been fighting tooth and nail
to keep the CIA out of Asia and here is a wonderful oprtunity for them
to make huge inroads into agency turf.
Perhaps with them out of the way there was no one left with the same
sort of ambition. or perhaps they just had short attention spans. Korea
was going nowhere and they simply had to have a new war, which had to be
NOW.
Whatever the case they did not seem to appreciate JFK's idea and I
believe that military intelligence has a hell of a lot more to answer
for than most people realise.
> >
> > 7. Although always couched in terms of victory, by 1963 Kennedy
>
> > and his aides are talking about ending another long-term
> struggle
> > with colonial roots, this time in S.E. Asia. At around the same
>
> > time, the doomed president is establishing back channels to
> Castro
> > and Cuba to normalize relations with that nation.
> >
> > 8. In the summer of 1963 in New Orleans, some of the very same
> > players from the OAS support team are seen by numerous
> > witnesses--and hotly disputed for decades--as taking part in an
> > operation that can easily be read as an attempt to sheep dip the
>
> > soon-to-be putative assassin of JFK.
>
> True. And I don't think this is by accident.
> However, you are taking two people (Shaw and Raigorodsky) and making
> them
> into one.
> As I stated in my last post, I don't think Shaw's a member of the OAS
> support team. I do agree he's a member of the CIA support team
> assigned
> to Permindex. But there's a difference between being a passive
> observer
> and an active participant. The OAS never heard of, or met with, Clay
> Shaw.
Yes except that at different times during those years and later people
such as Christian David and a couple of other Frenchmen from that crowd
had lived in, or been based in, New Orleans. Makes sense really being an
old French colonial town.
So I've read anyway. If that is true then I cant see them not making
contact.
> I do agree that Shaw's name has arisen in connection with two CIA
> operations so he's not just DCI. Yet it would be stupid to include
> Shaw
> routinely in operations due to his gay background and the risk that
> Permindex might get caught overseas at any time (As CMC did in Italy)
> which could cause them to be linked to Shaw/Permindex. I know you
> could
> consider the CIA to be stupid but at times they are amazingly
> brilliant.
> They really don't have a lot of failures.
Not now maybe. Back then they did have failures. Plenty of them. When
you consider their record in S/E Asia some were monumental.
Yes I think you can be sure that George most certainly knew Willoughby.
Willoughby I think would have been well in control of the likes of
Walker and Co.
His power was global in terms of the anti-communist far right
underground while Walker and hargis etc were trying to set up national
political outfits.
Apart from that Willoughby was in charge of something that was being
financed by the Hunts giving access to and influence in much higher
circles than Walker's bunch could manage.
Tony
James K. Olmstead
some confussion here with the OSS or is there a organization
within the OAS that can be verified as Gestapo connected?
Henry B. Hyde was the head of the Seventh Army OSS detatachment,
in Algeria and London. He mainly handled POW's and missions into
Germany. If there is a relationship to Ruth Paines father, I have not been
able to establish it as of yet. I had first several years ago believed that
Henry and W. A. Hyde were the same man, now I feel
there is a only very slight chance of a family connection. Henry and
James (father) Hyde operated out of New York.
In 1944 his command was placed under the 492 Bombardment Group, although he
still was with the 7th Army. Any offical effort to kill
deGualle in the OSS would have used this unit in my opinion. Efforts
outside of the offical channels are another matter. There are alot
of misconceptions of the OSS in WWII.
jko
Clark Wilkins
>
>I have seen OAS used in several messages in this thread, is there
>some confussion here with the OSS or is there a organization
>within the OAS that can be verified as Gestapo connected?
>
OAS stands for Secret Army Organization and is not an American
organization and was unrelated to the Gestapo.
The OAS was founded in Algeria in response to Charles DeGaulle's decision
to grant Algeria independence from France.
This was opposed by the French colonists in Algeria and by its Governor,
Jacque Soustelle.
The OAS was a military organization composed of French Army deserters
(principally parachutists and Dien Bien Phu veterans) loyal to General
Salan, the commander in chief of French Army forces in Algeria. Salan
had attempted to lead a coupe in Algeria, was defeated, and had fled to
Madrid. Here he set up the HQ for the OAS with himself as it's military
leader. It's political leadership was provided by Jacque Soustelle.
When DeGaulle refused to change his mind on Algerian independence, the
OAS sought to assassinate him. Records indicate 33 attempts were made.
The OAS was an extremely well organized and financed operation.
>Henry B. Hyde was the head of the Seventh Army OSS detatachment,
>in Algeria and London. He mainly handled POW's and missions into
>Germany. If there is a relationship to Ruth Paines father, I have not
been
>able to establish it as of yet. I had first several years ago believed
that
>Henry and W. A. Hyde were the same man, now I feel
>there is a only very slight chance of a family connection. Henry and
>James (father) Hyde operated out of New York.
>
>In 1944 his command was placed under the 492 Bombardment Group, although
he
>still was with the 7th Army. Any offical effort to kill
>deGualle in the OSS would have used this unit in my opinion. Efforts
>outside of the offical channels are another matter. There are alot
>of misconceptions of the OSS in WWII.
>
>jko
Sorry. No connection to the WWII OSS.
The events leading to the formation of the French OAS took place in 1958.
Hope this helps.
.Clark
lminor
>I have seen OAS used in several messages in this thread, is there
>some confussion here with the OSS or is there a organization
>within the OAS that can be verified as Gestapo connected?
>
>in Algeria and London. He mainly handled POW's and missions into
>Germany. If there is a relationship to Ruth Paines father, I have not been
>able to establish it as of yet. I had first several years ago believed
that
>Henry and W. A. Hyde were the same man, now I feel
>there is a only very slight chance of a family connection. Henry and
>James (father) Hyde operated out of New York.
>
>In 1944 his command was placed under the 492 Bombardment Group, although he
>still was with the 7th Army. Any offical effort to kill
>deGualle in the OSS would have used this unit in my opinion. Efforts
>outside of the offical channels are another matter. There are alot
>of misconceptions of the OSS in WWII.
>
>jko
>
>
>
>
Bancroft in her AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF A SPY:
"One of my colleagues, Bob Shea, would become frantic whenever Henry Hyde,
who did such splendid work with the French Resistance, and I would be
discussing a situation. Henry, witty and intuitive, had been educated
abroad, spoke French like a native and fluent German. He thought and spoke
with the speed of light and had immense charm." I believe Bruce Adamson has
traced the genealogy of Hyde, but I don't have it at my fingertips at the
moment (can look it up if you're interested). My interest at one time was
seeing whether this Hyde belonged to the family that created the Equitable
Assurance Society in New York, a branch of the London assurance society. I
suspect the current Congressman is of this family--given his connection to
banking in Watertown, NY.
Linda
Dreitzes
>From: John McAdams <jmca...@primenet.com>
>Date: 2/8/99 1:02 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <79lumd$htr$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>
>
>Jim Hargrove <harg...@enteract.com> wrote:
>: On 30 Jan 1999 20:28:52 GMT, NNX...@prodigy.com (Clark Wilkins) wrote:
>
>: >Please excuse my interruption.
>
>: No excuses necessary! Thanks for the post.
>
>: >I feel I probably know as much about Ferenc Nagy and Permindex as anyone
>: >on this site.
>: >Nagy has been identified here as a Nazi, a Hungarian, and a former
>: >premier. He was all of those things. By 1957 he was trying to free
>: >Hungary from Soviet oppression and probably for the purpose of placing it
>: >under his own oppression. In doing so, he sought aid from the US State
>: >Dept (arms) and the Italian royal family which had supported him in his
>: >days as a Nazi. Nagy envisioned smuggling arms into Europe via "trade
>: >marts". He did not then know that Shaw already operated a Trade Mart.
>: >With State Dept knowledge (and probably at the suggestion of CD Jackson)
>: >Nagy called on Shaw and formed Permindex.
>
>
>This is the same stuff that's been posted over and over here, but never
>any credible sources. Just incestuous quoting of buff books.
>
>How about some *primary* sources to support any of this.
>
>
>: Nagy announced plans to organize Permindex in Basel, Switzerland on
>12/28/56.
>: U.S. State Dept/Basel Consulate memos on Permindex started just a few days
>: later. For details on why Nagy's public statements concerning financing of
>a
>: trade center/hotel/office complex should have immediately attracted U.S.
>intel
>: interest, see below.
>
>: >The CIA denies Permindex was a front company of theirs but they do admit
>: >to keeping a file on Permindex.
>: >Supporting the CIA's claim, the company was predominately foreign owned.
>: >Contradicting the CIA's claim, however, is the fact that the Tolstoy
>: >Foundation, which obtained CIA funding, was electing directors to the
>: >board in equal proportion to the directors being elected by the Italian
>: >royal family. Again, Nagy's Fascist buddies were elected to the board in
>: >the exact same numbers.
>: > Still others were elected to the board for no apparent political
>: >reason. Many, if not all, of these latter directors were unaware of
>: >Permindex's true purpose and operations. Clay Shaw falls in this group.
>
>
>It's "true purpose" hasn't been established.
>
>
>: What evidence is there that Shaw was unaware of the operations of the
>company
>: he co-directed? He had three completely different highways leading to the
>: truth: one through Permindex/CMC channels, the second through USG contacts,
>: the last through Canadian and European press reports.
>
>: > Tracking Permindex's bank financing leads back, in part, to the US
>: >and was almost certainly done with CIA knowledge and approval. The CIA
>: >knew Nagy well. Still, there is no indication that the CIA was providing
>: >any leadership role in Permindex. It simply did not interfere with it's
>: >existence. Instead, the evidence indicates that the officers, directors,
>: >and stockholders looked to British intelligence for leadership. The US
>: >and Britain have formed coalitions in the past (WWI, WWII, Korea, and
>: >Iraq) and Permindex appears to have been an Italian, American, and
>: >British coalition organized and led by the British (for purposes I won't
>: >go into here).
>
>: > As for the claim that Permindex was kicked out of Switzerland, it
>: >was not. Permindex moved out of Switzerland because "someone else" was
>: >kicked out of Switzerland who they were working very closely with and
>: >they needed to maintain that relationship. That's how that story got
>: >started. It's really not that far off base anyway.
>
>: Centro Mondiale Commerciale, which shared directors with Permindex, was
>booted
>: out of Italy because of reports of its true activities in the Italian
>press:
>: the leftist _Paesa Sera_ newspaper and the conservative _De La Sera_. CMC
>and
>: Permindex were closely related.
>
>
>Jim, just how seriously are we supposed to take the anti-Shaw buffs when
>they don't know that the leftist paper is Paese Sera, and the conservative
>paper is Corriere della Sera?
>
>You're just quoting buff books.
>
>This stuff was debunked in an article in LOBSTER years ago, and the
>article was reprinted in THE THIRD DECADE. But you folks ignore it.
>
Really? That's interesting. Anybody want to post that?
>Where are the CIA documents showing that the agency had *any* hand in
>financing or controlling Permindex?
>
>It's been noticed here that you can't cite them.
>
>
>
>: > I have no idea if DeGaulle ever publicly accused Permindex of trying
>: >to kill him. I doubt it. DeGaulle was provided a report by French SDECE
>: >intelligence which identified Permindex as trying to assassinate him on
>: >behalf of Israel. There is some misinformation and many false
>: >conclusions in this report (It's about as accurate as the President's
>: >Commission on Pornography). It's purpose was more political than
>: >accurate. By way of comparison, it was a French SDECE agent that wrote
>: >"Farewell, America". So you can get idea of the work. Anyway, Charles
>: >DeGaulle did not believe any reports issued to him at the time by the
>: >SDECE so I doubt if he took it seriously.
>
>
>Dave, you logic here is fine, but let's back up and establish that any
>such SDECE report ever existed.
>
"Dave"???
>What's the citation?
>
>On FAIRWELL AMERICA, lurkers may want to see:
>
>http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/fa.txt
>
>
>
>: On the other hand, assuming for a moment that French intel got it right,
>the
>: whole idea must have seemed absurd to a Wold War II veteran like DeGaulle,
>who
>: had seen the liberation efforts of his nation led by the United States.
>
>
>"Assuming" that they got it right?
>
>Where is the citation to some reputable history of assassination attempts
>on the General that mentions Permindex?
>
>
>.John
>
>
>
>
>
>
"Let assumptions be made, though the heavens fall!"
Oops. Sorry, wrong quote.
Dave
Jim Hargrove
>Jim Hargrove wrote:
>> 6. Soon after the Bay of Pigs fiasco, President Kennedy issues a
>> couple of NSAMs (56 and 57 or 58, I think) attempting to take away
>> covert ops from the CIA and handing them to the JCS. The evidence
>> indicates this is unsuccessful but....
>Now this is something that really stands out as strange. I would have
>thought that the crowd in the Pentagon would have been jumping for joy
>over this.
>MacArthur's minions, Willoughby and Co had been fighting tooth and nail
>to keep the CIA out of Asia and here is a wonderful oprtunity for them
>to make huge inroads into agency turf.
>Perhaps with them out of the way there was no one left with the same
>sort of ambition. or perhaps they just had short attention spans. Korea
>was going nowhere and they simply had to have a new war, which had to be
>NOW.
>Whatever the case they did not seem to appreciate JFK's idea and I
>believe that military intelligence has a hell of a lot more to answer
>for than most people realise.
Remember that line from Stone's "JFK" where X (Prouty) says, "He is
surrounded by enemies?"
The President issued a series of National Security "action memoranda" taking
away NSA/CIA control of "paramilitary operations" and handed this
responsibility to his Strategic Resources Group. An immediate effect of
these memos, according to John Newman, was to place some of the CIA's larger
covert activities under Defense Department control.
"Among the most important covert programs that would be affected by these
decisions was the activity of the U.S. Special Forces in Vietnam," Newman
wrote. "At the time they were under the operational control of the CIA, but
in 1962, under the code name Operation Switchback, control over these
paramilitary forces would be switched to the Defense Department." (JFK and
Vietnam, p. 99)
But JFK never really rolled back the operational power of the intelligence
agencies. Why didn't the Joint Chiefs help him? He was clearly asking for
their help?
This old post from 1994 by Joe Knapp gives a large part of the answer.
There was considerable distrust and outright enmity between U.S. military
leadership and Kennedy's military policy, as put into effect by Defense
Secretary Robert McNamara and the other "whiz kids."
========================== QUOTE ON =============================
From: j...@cbvox1.cb.att.com (Joe Knapp)
Subject: JFK vs. the CIA and Pentagon
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 01:06:34 GMT
More so even than today, the national media in Kennedy's time were
heavily compromised by close relationships with the CIA and military
branches. Most major news outlets had staff members who worked with
the CIA, to the extent of receiving pay and other benefits (although
not always), as well as entering into formal secrecy agreements.
But while the value of the "news" reported on by such publications
is diminished, at least, for example, when one comes across an
article by Stewart Alsop in the Saturday Evening Post, one knows
that it is a glimpse into the thinking, or at least PR line, of the
particular faction of the CIA or Pentagon that the reporter is in
bed with.
Newsweek had as a regular contributing editor Gen. Thomas D. White,
former Air Force Chief-of-Staff. Gen. White wrote regular opinion
pieces criticizing the Kennedy Administration's military policy.
In a piece titled "What's Wrong With Civil-Military Relations," [Newsweek,
May 27, 1963] he wrote:
Today, controversy stems from the fact that a hard-hitting
Secretary of Defense has centralized authority in his office as
never before. He is advised by a vast array of professors, scientists,
financial and computer experts tohether with hundreds of civil-service
employees scattered throughout the echelons of the Pentagon and
elsewhere. Thus the role of the military at the top levels of
government has become derogated.
The Department of Defense has become reorganized, national strategy
altered, the budget structure overhauled, and cherished service
programs have been canceled. Most recently key military personnel
changes have made the headlines...
There are many in high places who view with alarm the direction of our
national strategy; some oppose organizational changes, and there is
unhappiness over some weapons systems. The common denominator is the
belief that dependence on temporary civilian experts and even computer
tapes has overshadowed military advice.
Railing against the "whiz kids" was a common theme that Gen. White harped
on.
He clearly resented the level of civilian control that was being asserted,
at least by the likes of the Kennedy Administration. This is the common
reactionary position, which talks up civilian control during, say, the
Eisenhower Administration when things were going their way regardless, but
squeal like a stuck pig when a liberal Democratic President (i.e., not to be
trusted) tries to do something rash like try to control the military or
something. Thus, we have comments like in the recently quoted Birchite
article:
Could the [Kennedy] Administration have had in mind the reduction of
[military morale] by introducing in the Pentagon a
large number of so-called "whiz kids" who would gradually assume
control over military policy? There is no doubt that these "whiz kids"
did a splendid job in sowing dissension in the Pentagon with the
consequent large numbers of resignations among the military personnel...
Imagine the nerve of those Kennedy people attempting to set military
policy! The subtext is clear. When the occasional Democrat slips in,
fight a four-year holding action until the next election. Then these
"temporary" civilian pains-in-the-neck can be replaced and all can be
set right and proper again. Sometimes, however, they insist on stepping
out of line.
Gen. White commented on another occasion [Newsweek, Dec. 31, 1962]:
Two popular novels deal with military crisis. "Seven Days in May"
depicts a near military takeover of the United States Government in the
1970s. "Fail Safe" is about an atomic crew headed for Moscow because
of a breakdown in safety procedures. Whatever their entertainment values,
and I found them high, in my opinion the situation described in "Fail
Safe" is exciting but impossible and the possibility of a military coup
d'etat as in "Seven Days" in this country is exactly zero.
"Seven Days in May" seems to have been a sort of 1963 analogue to Oliver
Stone's _JFK_, in that it seemed to compel military and intelligence
assets in the media to attack it. Hanson W. Baldwin, military editor
for the New York Times, twisted the onus back on the civilians in an
article in the Saturday Evening Post, March 31, 1962:
The "unification" of the armed services sponsored by Secretary of Defense
Robert S. McNamara poses some subtle and insidious dangers--creeping
dangers that are political, military, and administrative. And they could
present, in their ultimate form, almost as great a threat to a secure
and free nation as they attempted military coup envisaged in the recent
novel _Seven Days in May_.
Well! That was some fancy footwork! President Kennedy, for his part,
considered it one of his favorite books. For the movie version he offered
use of the White House for on-location filming because he felt that the film
would serve as a "warning to the nation." The book itself opened with the
famous warning from Eisenhower about the power of the military-industrial
complex. When asked about the likelihood of military brass taking such a
step, President Kennedy joked, "I know a couple who might wish they could."
[Sorensen, _Kennedy_].
Co-author Fletcher Knebel explained how he got the idea for the book:
I was walking past the White House one night, thinking of the young
President there, and thinking of the General Walker case [Maj. Gen.
Edwin A. Walker, relieved of command by President Kennedy in a dispute
over his indoctrinating his troops with views of the John Birch
Society] and thought of our own history, why it never happened that
we had a military plot against the government. Then I thought it would
make a good story to pretend it did happen and in that way to show
why it could never succeed in the United States.
The New York Times ran a full-page ad for the release of the movie on
the back page of the November 22, 1963 issue. Too bad Kennedy never got
to see the film version.
So it is quite clear that the relationship between the Kennedy
Administration and the military was sour indeed. One has to wonder
what level of willing stupidity or brazen disinformation is behind the
denials, in reaction to Stone's _JFK_, that Kennedy had any problem at
all with the military. "They loved him! He was a good conservative,"
a benighted Limbot might parrot today.
Anyway, back to Gen. White for a moment. He wrote [Newsweek, Dec. 31, 1962]:
The truth is that the influence of our military officers is probably
less now than ever before in American history...
Today, civilian authority not only controls but *plans* almost
every aspect of strategy, policy, procurement, distribution, even
tactics of our armed forces. The tactics are largely controlled
through the selection of weapons. And it is here, in my opinion, that
the military voice is dangerously weak...
Military weapons are now selected on the basis of "cost-effectiveness
studies" in which the views of young scientists often carry greater
weight than those of senior experienced military officials.
The same sort of mechanical thinking is found in the publicized
proposal to cancel Skybolt, which has extended "Seven Days Dismay"
to Great Britain.
In my opinion such a decision is part of Department of Defense
determination to kill the manned bomber. This has been the ambition
of various elements since the days of Billy Mitchell and it seems
close to accomplishment now. We have stopped production of *all*
bombers; no more B-58s or B-52s, and the B-70 seems to be all but
dead. The development of Skybolt would have prolonged the life
of the B-52 for as much as ten years.
Newsweek pretty much agreed that the Kennedy position was to abandon
the "mixed force" strategy and phase out bombers. They noted:
On high strategy, McNamara's decision reflected a sharp change in
concepts of nuclear vs. conventional warfare, hardware and tactics.
For the past fifteen years, conventional forces were looked upon
as the West's shield, with nuclear weapons the sword. Now the
analogy has been reversed by the Pentagon civilian planners. During
the recent [Cuban missile] crisis, it was the non-nuclear forces
mobilized off Cuba which formed the cutting wedge that forced
Khrushchev to back down [3/31/62].
Interesting! While the instant image people have of the crisis today is
one of a nuclear showdown, with President Kennedy brazenly flouting
nuclear strength, we find that in the real deep politics of the issue,
it was the use of conventional weapons that stirred up the Pentagon
old guard. The Newsweek article continues:
But one Pentagon general admits to a deep-seated fear that the U.S.
is unwittingly backing into a dangerous strategic corner. He declares:
"What we are seeing is the emerging of the Whiz Kids and their
anti-nuclear philosophy which they have been planning all along..."
[T]he ramifications of the Skybolt cancellation are only beginning
to be felt. If the rumblings in Congress are any gauge of things to
come, Skybolt will unsettle American generals and legislators as
much as it shocked British politicians.
The New York Times military analyst Hanson W. Baldwin, quoted above,
often wrote critical articles on the Kennedy Administration for the
CIA-mouthpiece Saturday Evening Post. In one such article, "The
McNamara Monarchy," March 31, 1962, he decried the changes made to
the nation's intelligence structure:
Mr. McNamara is, first and foremost, trying to make the armed services
speak "with one voice" and attempting to reduce greatly or eliminate
altogether inter-service competition.
He has established tremendous Defense Department "superagencies," such
as the Defense Intelligence Agency, which has taken over most of the
intelligence functions formerly performed by the individual services...
But this is only one area where Mr. McNamara is attempting to have the
Pentagon "speak with one voice." The Defense Supply Agency, a huge
super-agency, is procuring so-called common items for all the services.
So it can be seen that establishing Kennedy's relationship with the
military by pointing to defense budgets is specious at best. The question
for military brass was where are we, and where are we going? And for
the most part they didn't like what they saw, either in military or
intelligence policy.
<. . . .>
========================== QUOTE OFF =============================
--Jim Hargrove
John McAdams
: >Please excuse my interruption.
Where are the CIA documents showing that the agency had *any* hand in
financing or controlling Permindex?
It's been noticed here that you can't cite them.
: > I have no idea if DeGaulle ever publicly accused Permindex of trying
: >to kill him. I doubt it. DeGaulle was provided a report by French SDECE
: >intelligence which identified Permindex as trying to assassinate him on
: >behalf of Israel. There is some misinformation and many false
: >conclusions in this report (It's about as accurate as the President's
: >Commission on Pornography). It's purpose was more political than
: >accurate. By way of comparison, it was a French SDECE agent that wrote
: >"Farewell, America". So you can get idea of the work. Anyway, Charles
: >DeGaulle did not believe any reports issued to him at the time by the
: >SDECE so I doubt if he took it seriously.
Dave, you logic here is fine, but let's back up and establish that any
such SDECE report ever existed.
What's the citation?
On FAIRWELL AMERICA, lurkers may want to see:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/fa.txt
: On the other hand, assuming for a moment that French intel got it right, the
Tony Pitman
I was under the impression that DeGaulle himself publicly accused
Permindex of involvment. I don't have a citation tho. That's another
thing John. What sort of intel agencies would the CIA, SDECE etc be if the
provided docs on everything they did simply for people to to post
refferences to on the internet or wherever? Aren't they supposed to
operate out of the public eye? That's the problem with this case. If it
was just the Mob and a bunch of renegade Cuban exiles who were responsible
it would have been solved long ago.
Tony
John McAdams
>
> John McAdams wrote:
>
> > Jim Hargrove <harg...@enteract.com> wrote:
> > : On 30 Jan 1999 20:28:52 GMT, NNX...@prodigy.com (Clark Wilkins)
> > wrote:
[snipping]
Then, if you folks can't support what you say with citations, why don't
you stop saying it?
Just say "this charge has been made against Permindex, and we don't know
whether it's true or not."
And you might add: "we're not going to take very seriously authors who
think there are Italian newspapers called 'Paesa Sera' and 'De La
Sera.'"
> That's another
> thing John. What sort of intel agencies would the CIA, SDECE etc be if the
> provided docs on everything they did simply for people to to post
> refferences to on the internet or wherever? Aren't they supposed to
> operate out of the public eye? That's the problem with this case. If it
> was just the Mob and a bunch of renegade Cuban exiles who were responsible
> it would have been solved long ago.
>
I love this!
For 30 years, the buffs have been crying "release the files!"
And they get the JFK Records Act, and the files are released. And they
don't support the conspiracists notions.
So it's "you don't think that they would leave evidence in the *files,*
do you?"
.John
--
Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Tony Pitman
> Tony Pitman wrote:
> >
> > John McAdams wrote:
> >
> > > Jim Hargrove <harg...@enteract.com> wrote:
> > > : On 30 Jan 1999 20:28:52 GMT, NNX...@prodigy.com (Clark Wilkins)
>
> > > wrote:
>
> [snipping]
> Then, if you folks can't support what you say with citations, why
> don't
> you stop saying it?
>
> Just say "this charge has been made against Permindex, and we don't
> know
> whether it's true or not."
>
> And you might add: "we're not going to take very seriously authors
> who
> think there are Italian newspapers called 'Paesa Sera' and 'De La
> Sera.'"
>
> > That's another
> > thing John. What sort of intel agencies would the CIA, SDECE etc be
> if the
> > provided docs on everything they did simply for people to to post
> > refferences to on the internet or wherever? Aren't they supposed to
>
> > operate out of the public eye? That's the problem with this case.
> If it
> > was just the Mob and a bunch of renegade Cuban exiles who were
> responsible
> > it would have been solved long ago.
> >
>
> I love this!
>
> For 30 years, the buffs have been crying "release the files!"
>
> And they get the JFK Records Act, and the files are released. And
> they
> don't support the conspiracists notions.
>
> So it's "you don't think that they would leave evidence in the
> *files,*
> do you?"
>
> .John
Wait up there John? Are you holding me personally responsible for
everything every researcher on the CT side has said?
And do you think all the files have been released? Bush started off this
JFK Records Act did he not? If you think he really wanted to see this
whole thing laid out for all to see then I believe you would be the most
naive political scientist I've ever heard of.
Even the liberals acknowledge the need for secrecy.
We have an instance going on here right now where our SIS got caught out
with three or so of it's agents breaking into a private house belonging
to an English anti-nuke/spy/racism/etc campaigner.
It turned out that their charter for such activity was a little obscure
so the govt (right wing) moved swiftly to enact legislation increasing
their powers.
Today a former Labour Prime Minister, who BTW is a staunch anti-nuke man
himself, came out in support of this bill saying that even a small
democracy like ours needs this sort of protection. The bill will allow
the SIS to enter whatever premises they like without search warrants.
They are answerable only to the Prime Minister and he/she is the only
person from outside the service who can demand access to files.
Are your federal agencies any different?
The answer is obviously no altho it would appear that even your
President is sometimes unable to make demands on them
Tony
Jim Hargrove
>Jim, just how seriously are we supposed to take the anti-Shaw buffs when
>they don't know that the leftist paper is Paese Sera, and the conservative
>paper is Corriere della Sera?
>
>You're just quoting buff books.
Which include names, dates, and direct (translated from Italian) quotations.
>This stuff was debunked in an article in LOBSTER years ago, and the
>article was reprinted in THE THIRD DECADE. But you folks ignore it.
Shouldn't you at least provide the date when all this was "debunked?"
And...
Does this mean you are accepting the "buff" publications _Lobster_ and _The
Third/Fourth Decade_ as Gospel truth?
>Where are the CIA documents showing that the agency had *any* hand in
>financing or controlling Permindex?
>
>It's been noticed here that you can't cite them.
Here is the citation you failed to make from Lobster's Website, emphasis (IN
CAPS) added:
<QUOTE ON>
Lobster Issues 1-8: 1983-1985
The first 8 issues of Lobster have not been kept in print. SOME OF THEM
CONTAIN MATERIAL WHICH WAS LATER FOUND TO BE DISINFORTMATION. At some point
a "Best of early Lobster" will be produced. In the meantime, Lobster is
being included in the on-going microfiche collection from Research
Publications, PO Box 45, Reading RG1 8HF, UK tel: 01734 583247.
Lobster Issue 1 (1883, 16 pages, A5)
Kincoragate
Spooks Digest
The Round Table and Quigley
Lobster Issue 2 (1983, 34 pages, A5)
Special on the JFK Assassination
Dorril on Maria Novotny
**PERMINDEX**
Ramsay - An Alternative hypothesis
Epstein's 'Legend'
<QUOTE OFF>
I'm very interested in this subject, John. Instead of informing me that
Permindex's assassination fundings were "debunked" by a "buff" source, why
don't you post the particulars? This would be a real opportunity for you to
put a dagger into Jim Garrison's memory! Seize the day! I'm listening, but
I'm also checking your data. . . . More to come.
--Jim Hargrove
jpsh...@my-dejanews.com
harg...@enteract.com (Jim Hargrove) wrote:
> On 8 Feb 1999 06:02:53 GMT, John McAdams <jmca...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >they don't know that the leftist paper is Paese Sera, and the conservative
> >paper is Corriere della Sera?
> >
> >You're just quoting buff books.
>
>
> >article was reprinted in THE THIRD DECADE. But you folks ignore it.
>
> And...
>
> Does this mean you are accepting the "buff" publications _Lobster_ and _The
> Third/Fourth Decade_ as Gospel truth?
>
> >financing or controlling Permindex?
> >
> >It's been noticed here that you can't cite them.
>
opinion, calling Nagy a Nazi slanders Nagy and trivializes the
horrendous crimes of the real Hungarian Nazis.
-
Citations from the New York Times
-
Jan 16, 1948 P4
Nagy Calls Vajta Nazi
Ousted Hungarian Premier Gives Information to House Group
-
Washington, Jan15. - Ferenc Vajta, now being held at New York for
deportation has been identified as a Nazi and "propagandist for
the Nazis" in Budapest during the German occupation. Ferenc Nagy,
recent anti-Communist and anti-Nazi premier of Hungary, was quoted
as authority by the House Committee on Un-American Activities today.
Representative John McDowell of Pennsylvania, chairman of a
subcommittee on fascism, said he had telephoned to Mr. Nagy at Herndon,
Va., where the ousted premier has been living since his escape from
Hungary and flight to refuge in this country last June.
This conversation was read into the records of the investigating
group at a closed hearing today as it continued efforts to determine
the details of Vajta's entrance into this county.
-
[I owe this reference to Christopher Simpson's excellent book,
_Blowback_. In Simpson's account Ferenc Vadja (Simpson's preferred
spelling, Vajta above) was sent to the U. S. by Army CIC to contact
Ferenc Nagy to convince him to cooperate with a group known as
Intermarium, but Vadja's presence was exposed by Drew Pearson.]
-
May 7, 1956 P36
Magyar Church is 50 Years Old
At Anniversary Celebration, Dr. Nagy Says U.S. Will Win Battle of
Ideologies
-
[...]
Dr. Nagy was forced to resign by a Communist coup in 1947. He is
now prominent in organizations representing governments-in-exile from
central and eastern Europe.
[...]
"There is only one question: which ideology will lead the future
way of mankind, democracy or Communism? The latter has changed its
methods from violence and terror to seemingly democratic and
parliamentary ways."
Dr. Nagy declared that, to oppose these methods, which he labeled
much more dangerous than open aggression, it was necessary to build
up "our own strategy." This strategy, he said, should be as follows:
-
The United States should introduce itself to the
rest of the world as it really exists - with its
"moral strengths and wonderful principles."
-
The free world should support all efforts to
increase foreign aid for underdeveloped nations so
that they can meet the Soviet economic challenge.
-
The United States should point out to the rest of
the world that Communism is not a revolution or
progressive ideology any more, but a reactionary
movement.
-
Dr. Nagy declared that a real revolution was going on in America
where, he said, the differences between the rich and the poor were
disappearing entirely.
Maintaining that the final victory in the battle for ideas will go
to America, he added:
"The United States will sooner or later be able to prove to the
rest of the world that, to pursue happiness, the only way is
democracy."
-
Oct 29, 1956 P8
Ferenc Nagy Going to Border
-
Paris, Oct. 28 (UP) - Ferenc Nagy, Hungary's last non-communist
premier and a leader of refugees from behind the Iron Curtain,
said tonight that he would be willing to return home to head a new
anti-communist regime.
Mr. Nagy is flying to Vienna tomorrow and will go from there to
the Hungarian border. He is expected to meet there with leaders of
the revolution.
-
Nov 9, 1956 P14
Aid for Refugees Pushed in Britain
Provisions for Hungarians' Reception Sifted as Anger at Soviets
Continues
-
London, Nov. 8 - [...]
At Shannon Airport in Ireland, Ferenc Nagy, who was premier of
Hungary in 1946-1947, said he was on his way to New York to urge
the United Nations to establish an international police force
in his country. Mr. Nagy, a member of the Smallholders Party, is
not to be confused with Imre Nagy, the Hungarian Communist premier
seized by Soviet forces a few days ago.
Ferenc Nagy said more than 100,000 persons had been killed or
wounded in the battles in Hungary.
"Only the free world has profited from Hungary's experience, for
it has made further Communist infiltration impossible," Mr. Nagy
said. "Who will believe that Communism is a peaceful ideology after
the brutal war against Hungary?"
[...]
-
Nov 9, 1956 P14
Soviet Says West Incited Hungary
Approval of Rebel Plans by 'High U. S. Circles' Alleged -- Arms Aid
Charged
-
Moscow, Nov. 8 - Soviet propaganda outlets reported today that the
uprising in Hungary has been financed by the Western Powers and that
advance plans had been approved by the "highest circles" in the
United States.
[...]
The allegation of outside planning and support for the uprising
against the Hungarian government was contained in a report from
Vienna broadcast by the Moscow radio tonight. This named Ferenc Nagy,
former Hungarian premier and [International] Peasant Union leader ...,
as the key figure in the supposed plot against the regime.
The report said that Mr. Nagy met with Hungarian emigres in
Munich "not long before the beginning of the rebellion in Hungary."
He was alleged to have told them that he had just come from the
United States where plans for the revolt had been "agreed upon in the
highest circles."
Mr. Nagy is also alleged to have worked out plans for supporting
the revolt with arms and supplies in agreement with "American
Organizations."
[...]
-
Nov 21, 1956 P16
Hungarian Charges West Lost a Chance
-
Washington, Nov. 20 (UP) - Ferenc Nagy ... said today the free world
had lost an opportunity to undermine the Communist empire when it
failed to help Hungarian patriots.
"It is not observation or sympathy that is needed in Hungary," he
told the House Committee on Un-American Activities, "but rather
concrete action on the part of the western world."
[...]
-
Dec 10, 1956 P26
Aid to Hungary Urged
Former Premier Asks Freeworld Boycott of Soviet
-
Ferenc Nagy ... called yesterday for political aid against the
Soviet Union and the current Hungarian government.
He urged the free world to apply an economic, social and cultural
boycott against the Soviet Union.
"We must wake up to the fact that the Hungarian people did not
fight for Red Cross packages but for freedom and national
independence," Nr, Nagy said.
He spoke at a special "Service of Memory and Hope" for the
Hungarian people at the Riverside church.
-
[end of articles]
-
Jerry Shinley
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
jim_ha...@my-dejanews.com
>Jim, just how seriously are we supposed to take the anti-Shaw buffs when
>they don't know that the leftist paper is Paese Sera, and the conservative
>paper is Corriere della Sera?
>
>You're just quoting buff books.
Which include names, dates, and direct (translated from Italian) quotations.
>This stuff was debunked in an article in LOBSTER years ago, and the
>article was reprinted in THE THIRD DECADE. But you folks ignore it.
Shouldn't you at least provide the date when all this was "debunked?" And...
Does this mean you are accepting the "buff" publications _Lobster_ and _The
Third/Fourth Decade_ as Gospel truth?
>Where are the CIA documents showing that the agency had *any* hand in
>financing or controlling Permindex?
>
>It's been noticed here that you can't cite them.
Here is the citation you failed to make from Lobster's Website, emphasis (IN
CAPS) added:
<QUOTE ON>
Lobster Issues 1-8: 1983-1985
<QUOTE OFF>
--Jim Hargrove
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
B tu797286
>Date: 2/10/99 4:07 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <36c1473d...@news.enteract.com>
He's got you there, Mr. McAdams. How about it?
Bill Tuttle
jpsh...@my-dejanews.com
harg...@enteract.com (Jim Hargrove) wrote:
>
[...]
>
> Following is additional information from _Destiny Betrayed_ by James
> DiEugenio_. This material is excerpted with the permission of the author.
>
> ------------------ BEGIN DESTINY BETRAYED EXCERPT -----------------------
>
[...]
>
> ... Things got worse when it was discovered that
> George Mantello was also involved.10 Mantello's real name
> was George Mandel. His name brought about attacks in the
> Swiss papers against Permindex, its organizers, and the
> Swiss government. The Arbeiter-Zeitung accused Mandel of
> being a gold profiteer during the war and of working the
> Jewish refugee racket. He had done both while holding Sal-
> vadoran citizenship and acting as secretary at the El Salvador
> Consulate in Geneva. Mandel was a naturalized Swiss citizen
> of Eastern European origin, who had aided Nagy in his flight
> from Hungary and helped him get established in America."11
>
> The combination of proto-fascist directors and murky fi-
> nancing led to an outburst of editorial attacks against Permin-
> dex. But the pressure did not induce Nagy to be more forth-
> coming about the source of his funds. The enterprise began
> to lose both public support and government approval.
>
[...]
>
> -------------------- END DESTINY BETRAYED EXCERPT -----------------------
>
> _Destiny Betrayed_ is copyright © 1992 by James DiEugenio. The excerpt
> reprinted here appears with Mr. DiEugenio's permission.
>
> --Jim Hargrove
>
http://holocaustcenter.com/former.shtml
-
Holocaust Memorial Center Anniversary Dinner
Speakers and Award Recipients
-
RIGHTEOUSNESS
SPEAKER AWARD RECIPIENT
[...]
George
1989 James J. Mandel-Mantello
Blanchard and Professor
Rudolf Vrba
[...]
-
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/resources/books/annual1/chap07.html
-
[...]
-
On April 7, 1944, two Slovak Jewish inmates of Auschwitz, Alfred
Wetzler (registration number, as tattooed onto his forearm, 29,192)
and Walter Rosenberg, later known as Rudolf Vrba (registration number
44,070), escaped from the heavily guarded camp after two years of
imprisonment and fled to their native village in neighboring Slovakia.
4 They knew that Auschwitz was at that moment being prepared for the
mass extermination of the remaining Jews of Europe, especially those
from Hungary, which had been occupied by the Germans in March 1944.
Preparations were far advanced for what was to become the
largest-scale operation ever undertaken by the Nazi authorities,
resulting in the execution of no fewer than 500,000 Jews between May
16 and the beginning of October 1944. Extensive preparations had been
made since January to increase the daily capacity of the camp to kill
20,000 victims. "It was no secret in Auschwitz," Vrba claimed, "that
these extraordinary preparations were designed for the rapid
annihilation of Hungary's Jews." 5 It was clear to Vrba and Wetzler
that their inside information about these plans must be used
immediately to warn their fellow Jews of their impending fate. It was
their belief that the whole annihilation procedure could be halted, or
at least slowed down, by revealing the secrecy of the "resettlement
areas" to the potential victims and by exposing the extermination
machinery to the world in general and the Jews in particular.
-
[...]
-
[Vrba and Wetzler contacted Slovakian Jewish leaders.]
-
... Vrba and Wetzler were then directed to dictate separate
statements-in Slovakian-describing the operations in Auschwitz: the
mass executions; the disposal of the victims' property; the sequence
of deportation, selection, gassing, and cremating the corpses; as well
as details about the arrival of Jews from all parts of Europe, which
they had personally witnessed during their period of imprisonment.
Because Vrba was only twenty years old, his testimony had to be
notarized by a "responsible adult."
-
Subsequently, the two statements, both written in the first person,
were put together in a composite report, and each of the two men
provided details while the other was not present. As rapidly as
possible, the whole report, some sixty pages of typescript, was
prepared simultaneously in Slovak and German. Their names, or even
their aliases, were not appended, not so much for their safety as
because the Jewish Council was endorsing their account. This gave the
report more credibility in the eyes of its intended recipients, the
leaders of Hungarian Jewry.
-
[...]
-
Contemporary evidence that this report also reached other
sympathizers, who were ready to give it wider publicity in Western
countries, is provided by at least three independent initiatives taken
at this time. First, late in 1944 an officer of the Hungarian Air
Force flew his plane from Hungary to southern Italy, landing behind
the Allied lines. He was interrogated there by an American
Intelligence officer of Hungarian descent, E. Foder, to whom he handed
a microfilmed copy of the Auschwitz report, explaining that this
information about the Nazi atrocities had led him to defect and join
the Allied cause. By this time, however, the Western powers had
already received the same information from other channels.
-
Second, a courier of the Czechoslovak underground movement delivered a
copy of the Wetzler-Vrba report on June 19 and 20, 1944, to the
Czechoslovak Minister to Switzerland in Bern, Dr. Jaromir Kopacky. It
was immediately sent to the World Jewish Congress in Geneva and to the
Swiss press, which published extensive extracts. 30
-
Third, at the same time, Georges Mandel-Mantello, acting First
Secretary of the El Salvador Consulate in Geneva, received a copy from
Budapest. It had originated in the Palestine Office in Hungary and
included not only the Wetzler-Vrba material but also new and detailed
information about the first month's deportations of Hungarian Jews.
Mantello immediately gave this material to the chief correspondent of
the Exchange Press in Zurich, Walter Garrett, an Englishman, whose
Hungarian-speaking secretary recalls translating the documents from
Hungarian into English. 31 It is clear that this particular copy could
not have come from either the Jewish Council or the Vatican
representatives in Slovakia, who would not have forwarded a Hungarian
version to Switzerland.
-
<end of excerpts>
-
Jerry Shinley
John McAdams
Let me see whether I understand this correctly. The DiEugenio crowd is
accusing a fellow of being a Nazi who is actually a holocaust hero.
Jim, what about the politics of the Arbeiter-Zeitung? Want to tell us
about that?
.John
Tony Pitman
> Let me see whether I understand this correctly. The DiEugenio crowd is
> accusing a fellow of being a Nazi who is actually a holocaust hero.
>
> Jim, what about the politics of the Arbeiter-Zeitung? Want to tell us
> about that?
>
> .John
Some hero wasn't he?
Righteousness Award eh?
I like that.
A righteous profiteer.
Tony:-)
John McAdams
>On 8 Feb 1999 06:02:53 GMT, John McAdams <jmca...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>>Jim, just how seriously are we supposed to take the anti-Shaw buffs when
>>they don't know that the leftist paper is Paese Sera, and the conservative
>>paper is Corriere della Sera?
>>
>>You're just quoting buff books.
>
>Which include names, dates, and direct (translated from Italian) quotations.
>
>>This stuff was debunked in an article in LOBSTER years ago, and the
>>article was reprinted in THE THIRD DECADE. But you folks ignore it.
>
>Shouldn't you at least provide the date when all this was "debunked?" And...
>
>Does this mean you are accepting the "buff" publications _Lobster_ and _The
>Third/Fourth Decade_ as Gospel truth?
>
It means that they are better than OTTOTA, CROSSFIRE, Paris
Flammonde's books, and the like. Especially when they *debunk* buff
factoids that their biases would incline them to accept.
>>Where are the CIA documents showing that the agency had *any* hand in
>>financing or controlling Permindex?
>>
>>It's been noticed here that you can't cite them.
>
>Here is the citation you failed to make from Lobster's Website, emphasis (IN
>CAPS) added:
>
Sashay(tm)!!
Jim can't provide the citations I've asked for, and so he changes the
subject.
><QUOTE ON>
>
>Lobster Issues 1-8: 1983-1985
>
>The first 8 issues of Lobster have not been kept in print. SOME OF THEM
>CONTAIN MATERIAL WHICH WAS LATER FOUND TO BE DISINFORTMATION. At some point a
>"Best of early Lobster" will be produced. In the meantime, Lobster is being
>included in the on-going microfiche collection from Research Publications, PO
>Box 45, Reading RG1 8HF, UK tel: 01734 583247.
>
> Lobster Issue 1 (1883, 16 pages, A5)
> Kincoragate
> Spooks Digest
> The Round Table and Quigley
>
> Lobster Issue 2 (1983, 34 pages, A5)
> Special on the JFK Assassination
> Dorril on Maria Novotny
> **PERMINDEX**
> Ramsay - An Alternative hypothesis
> Epstein's 'Legend'
>
><QUOTE OFF>
>
>I'm very interested in this subject, John. Instead of informing me that
>Permindex's assassination fundings were "debunked" by a "buff" source, why
>don't you post the particulars? This would be a real opportunity for you to
>put a dagger into Jim Garrison's memory! Seize the day! I'm listening, but
>I'm also checking your data. . . . More to come.
>
Here it is, Jim:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/lobster.htm
I've corresponded with the editor, and he doesn't consider it
"disinformation."
Now, do you folks have *any* hard evidence to contradict the
conclusions of this article?
Anything but unsourced assertions from leftist propaganda organs to
link Permindex to the CIA, to fascists, or to anything unsavory?
This incestious quoting of the same old buff sources isn't impressive.
You folks should cought up some hard evidence, or admit that this is
yet another buff factoid.
.John
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
John McAdams
Splendid post, Jerry!
It seems the Garrisonite buffs have been smearing as a fascist or Nazi
a fellow who was actually a Holocaust hero!
This reflects very badly indeed on DiEugenio's "scholarship." Indeed,
it reflects badly on his character.
jpsh...@my-dejanews.com
not exactly well known. I only discovered it myself about the time I
originally made the post above.
>
> .John
>
Jerry Shinley
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
Michael Collins Piper
a fascist or Nazi a fellow who was actually a Holocaust hero!
This does tend to suggest that this Permindex operation wasindeed tied up
very heavily with the Israelis, doesn't it!?
--MICHAEL COLLINS PIPER
John McAdams
<pip...@mailcity.com> wrote:
>Splendid post, Jerry! It seems the Garrisonite buffs have been smearing as
>a fascist or Nazi a fellow who was actually a Holocaust hero!
>
The above is what I wrote.
>This does tend to suggest that this Permindex operation wasindeed tied up
>very heavily with the Israelis, doesn't it!?
>
>--MICHAEL COLLINS PIPER
>
And that is Piper's reply.
Michael, *why* does it suggest he was "tied up very heavily with the
Israelis?"
Is everybody who acted honorably during the Holocaust an agent and
secret operative of the Mossad?
You really seem to believe there are only two classes of people in the
world: Nazi spooks, and Mossad spooks.
Prove somebody isn't a nasty Nazi, and you think it "suggests" that he
worked for the Mossad.
Wacky "logic" Michael. You logic is simply a mirror image of the
Garrisonites'.
Dreitzes
>Date: 5/26/99 12:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <374b77e8...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>
Speaking of people Michael has accused of having sinister "connections" to the
ADL, the Israel government and/or the Mossad:
J. Edgar Hoover (cf. *Final Judgment,* pp. 81-2)
Meyer Lansky (cf. pp. 81-2, 91, 262)
James Angleton (cf. pp. 96-7)
G. Robert Blakey (cf. p. 127)
Jack Ruby (cf. pp. 166-71, 182, 185)
Carlos Marcello (cf. p. 188)
Clay Shaw (cf. p. 189-90, 203, 252)
Edgar and Edith Stern (cf. p. 189-90)
Guy Banister (cf. pp. 202-3)
Walter Sheridan (cf. pp. 254-6)
Drew Pearson (cf. pp. 267-71)
Jack Anderson (cf. pp. 272-3)
Rev. Sun Myung Moon (cf. p. 277)
Oliver Stone (cf. p. 280, 282-4)
George Bush (cf. pp. 310-12)
He also complains that the ADL "smears" people, but sees nothing questionable
in linking the ADL in various sinister ways with some kind of control of the US
media (cf. p. 263), domestic espionage (cf. pp. 264-5),
organized crime (cf. p. 262), the CIA (cf. p. 263), the assassination of John
F. Kennedy (cf. p. 265), the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy (cf. pp.
287-93), the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr., (cf. pp. 578-9), the
death of Marilyn Monroe (cf. pp. 161-6), and God knows what else . . .
Dave Reitzes
Ulycz
came a magazine with Clay Shaw's picture in it. Along with Shaws connection to
Permindex, which implies the British, I noticed a very distinct family
resemblance with the Cornwal.is family. Check your former heads of MI6 for more
info on that. Is there any way to track Shaws family tree directly to England?
Does anyone have the resources or the want to to try to track that a little bit
further?
Ulycz
Tony Pitman
McAdams) wrote:
>On 10 Feb 1999 09:41:43 -0600, jim_ha...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>>On 8 Feb 1999 06:02:53 GMT, John McAdams <jmca...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Jim, just how seriously are we supposed to take the anti-Shaw buffs when
>>>they don't know that the leftist paper is Paese Sera, and the conservative
>>>paper is Corriere della Sera?
>>>
>>>You're just quoting buff books.
>>
>>Which include names, dates, and direct (translated from Italian) quotations.
>>
>>>This stuff was debunked in an article in LOBSTER years ago, and the
>>>article was reprinted in THE THIRD DECADE. But you folks ignore it.
>>
>>Shouldn't you at least provide the date when all this was "debunked?" And...
>>
>>Does this mean you are accepting the "buff" publications _Lobster_ and _The
>>Third/Fourth Decade_ as Gospel truth?
>>
>
>It means that they are better than OTTOTA, CROSSFIRE, Paris
>Flammonde's books, and the like. Especially when they *debunk* buff
>factoids that their biases would incline them to accept.
Well done John. What a wonderful example of blatant double standards. I
take back what I said once in the past. You are a Political Scientist par
excellence. That is exactly how the MPs and Reps do it:-)
>>>Where are the CIA documents showing that the agency had *any* hand in
>>>financing or controlling Permindex?
>>>
>>>It's been noticed here that you can't cite them.
>>
>>Here is the citation you failed to make from Lobster's Website, emphasis (IN
>>CAPS) added:
>>
>
>Sashay(tm)!!
>
>Jim can't provide the citations I've asked for, and so he changes the
>subject.
As immature as the agency was in those days they were not silly enough to
leave too many documents laying around for all and sundry to read. But
since you specify the "financing and controlling of Permindex" then it is
quite logical that they haven't leaked a few, as silly as they were on
occasion. They did not finance or control Permindex as such. But that
doesn't mean that they didn't take advantage of it's fascilities and use
it as a conduit for the covert transferring of funds which was one of the
outfit's basic functions apparently. Along with it's parent company and
the bank behind them.
Well I dont think you can call Michael Piper's work "the same old buff
sources".
As I recall even Le Monde printed articles on this but I would say that a
lot of the info, regardless of who printed it must have come from someone
who knew since when these articles came out it doesn't seem as tho there
were any denials or demands for retractions, libel suits whatever.
In fact the Swiss and Italian govts were convinced and you can bet that
they had sources which were more solid than newspaper reports, red, white
or brindle.
The names of who was what with these outfits would be on their company
registration papers.
And if anyone with money got kicked out of Switzerland back in those days
it had to be something pretty outrages. We are only now seeing them come
clean, reluctantly I might add, on some of the old Nazi deposits, plus
those of dead Jews. The Gnomes aren't normally too finicky where the money
comes from.
Tony