Oswald - 12:33 P.M. - 12:52 P.M. The McWatter's Bus Saga
curtjester1
shirt*** and carrying a grey flannel jacket, walked east on Elm
Street. Cecil McWatters was driving the "Marsailis-Ramona-Elmwood"
bus west on Elm Street (the "1213" run) and arrived at St.Paul and Elm
on schedule at 12:36 pm. Mary Bledsoe boarded the bus and took a seat
across the aisle from McWatters as he continued west on Elm toward the
TSBD.
McWatters told the WC that Oswald boarded his bus in the middle of an
intersection, instead of a regular bus stop. He said, "I come to a
complete stop and when I did, someone come up and *beat on the door of
the bus,* and that is about even with Griffin St."
**: Cecil McWatter's bus, which arrived on schedule at St.Paul Street
at 12:36 pm, was due to arrive at Lamar Street at 12:40 pm but was
stalled in traffic at Griffin (two blocks east of Lamar) due to the
assassination. Oswald boarded the bus, between bus stops, at about
12:40 pm.
McWatters remembered that Oswald boarded the bus, paid his 23-cent
fare and, "Took the third chair back on the right." McWatters said,
"To me he had on just work clothes, he didn't have on a suit of
clothes, and some type of ***jacket.*** I would say a ***cloth
jacket.*** Oswald paid the fare and walked passed Mary Bledsoe, who
recognized him immediately as a former tenant who lived in her house
only a month earlier. She identified the clothing Oswald wore as "a
***brown shirt*** with holes in the elbows" and "ragged grey work
pants."
**: HARVEY Oswald boarded McWatter's bus wearing a ***brown shirt***
and grey work pants, which he later discarded and placed in the lower
drawer of his dresser after returning to 1026 N. Beckley. He changed
into a ***dark brown shirt*** and another piar of grey work pants
before proceeding to the Texas Theater: The clothing described by Mrs
Bledsoe's matched the ***brown, long-sleeve, button-down shirt*** and
grey pants found by Dallas Police in the lower drawer of his dresser.
Before giving his testimony to the WC Mrs. Bledsoe prepared notes, at
the suggestion of SS Agent Forrest Sorrels, in order to refresh her
memory. Reading from notes is not uncommon in courtroom proceedings,
and is allowed in all state and federal court proceedigns (Federal
Rules of Evidence-Rule 612 and Rule 803-S).**
Bus passenger Roy Milton Jones rememberd that a woman followed Oswald
onto the bus as he boarded in the middle of the intersection. Jones
told the Commission, "A blond woman and a dark haired man (Oswald)
boarded the bus approximately six blocks before Houston Street. The
man sat in the seat behind him and the woman occupied a seat further
to the rear of the bus." Jones emphasized he did not have a good view
of this man and could not positively identify him as being idential
with Lee HARVEY Oswald. Jones told the FBI the man sitting behind him
wore a ***"light blue jacket***(Oswald's flannel jacket was ***light
grey***) and gray khaki trousers." Jones casually observed a
nondescript bus passenger for a brief seconds, *and should be
commended for remembering anything at all about this man.*
When the bus stopped in traffic near Poydrus a man got out of the car
in front of the bus and told McWatters the President had been shot.
Lee HARVEY Oswald got up from his seat,*as did the blond-haired
woman,* and obtained a transfer from McWatters before leaving the bus.
**: The Secret Service estimated that Oswald rode McWatter's bus for
***4*** minutes. Therefore, Oswald probably exited McWatter's bus at
approximately 12:44 pm.**
McWatters told the Commission, "Yes, sir; I gave him one (bus
transfer) about two blocks from where he got on (at Griffith)....the
reason I recall the incident, I had-there was a lady that when I
stopped in this traffic, there was a lady who had a suitcase and she
said, I have to make a 1 o'clock train at Union Station...so I gave
her a transfer and got off at the same place in the middle of the
block where the lady did....it was the intersection near Lamar St."
Mary Bledsoe heard the woman's comment about the Union Staion and
said, "Why don't you walk over there. It's just a little ways."
Roy Milton Jones also rememberd the woman and said, "When the bus was
stopped in traffic, and prior to the appearance of the police, the
woman left the bus by the *rear door* to catch a train at the depot
and the man who was sitting behind him (Oswald) left the bus by the
*front door* while the bus was in the middle of the block."
**: The blond-haired woman boarded McWatter's bus, in the middle of
the intersection, at the same time Oswald. She took a seat behind
Oswald and rode the bus for a couple of blocks. When the bus stalled
in traffic she, like Oswald, asked for a bus transfer and followed him
off the bus in the middle of another intersection. But this woman did
not need a bus transfer, because the Union Station was only a few
blocks ahead on McWatter's bus route. Was this woman following
Oswald? She may have followed Oswald down Lamar Street to William
Whaley's cab.**
A few minutes after HARVEY Oswald and the blond-haired woman left, two
policemen boarded the bus and asked each passenger if they were
carrying a weapon. These policemen have never been identified and
there are no DPD or FBI reports which indicate that any Dallas city
buses were searched on November 22, ***only the bus on which HARVEY
Oswald was a passenger:***
**: The blond woman may have followed Oswald onto the bus for the
purpose of indentifying him to the two police officers. This raises
the distinct possibility that Oswald was to have been shot and killed
on McWatter's bus by the two unknown policemen.**
After the policemen left the bus, McWatters continued west on Elm
Street and turned south onto Houston (passing the Union Station). As
McWatters was driving he said to a male passenger, "I wonder where
they shot the President?" The passenger replied, "They shot him in
the temple." The bus crossed the Houston Street viaduct into Oak
Cliff and drove past the Good Luck Oil Company (GLOCO), *where Dallas
Police officer, J.D. Tippit was waiting in his patrol car*. Tippit
was expecting Lee HARVEY Oswald, *whom he observed at the Dobbs House
Restaurant two days earlier,* to get off McWatter's bus when it
stopped at the corner of Zang and Marsalis.
But McWatters did not stop at the corner and continued south on
Marsalis to Vermont Street, where a female passenger who was "at least
55 or 60 years of age" boarded the bus. McWatters asked the woman if
she had heard that the President had been shot, and she told him not
to joke about such matters. The woman noticed that the man sitting in
the seat behind McWatters was grinning and said, "Why he's siling;
you're joking!"
**: Some early critics claimed, incorrectly, that the young man who
smiled when McWatters said the President had been shot was Oswald, who
was not even on the bus at this point.**
McWatters continued south on Maralis, *unaware that Office J.D. Tippit
was following his bus,* and remembered the "smiling man" off the bus
south of Saner Avenue. He described the young man as "a teenager,
about 5'8", 155 lbs, medium build, slim-faced" and rememberd that he
saw him on the bus the next day. The young man lived one block south
of Saner Avenue at 512 E. Brownlee Avenue, and he was later identified
as Roy Milton Jones.
Harvey and Lee, pg. 824-6
CJ
robcap...@netscape.com
> After leaving the TSBD, HARVEY Oswald, wearing a long sleeved ***brown
> shirt*** and carrying a grey flannel jacket, walked east on Elm
> Street. Cecil McWatters was driving the "Marsailis-Ramona-Elmwood"
> bus west on Elm Street (the "1213" run) and arrived at St.Paul and Elm
> on schedule at 12:36 pm. Mary Bledsoe boarded the bus and took a seat
> across the aisle from McWatters as he continued west on Elm toward the
> TSBD.
>
"McWatters told the WC that Oswald boarded his bus in the middle of
an intersection, instead of a regular bus stop. He said, "I come to
a complete stop and when I did, someone come up and *beat on the door
of the bus,* and that is about even with Griffin St.""
It is NOT clear this was LHO who boarded the bus as McWatters recanted
his statement of 11/22/63 the very next day by saying he could NOT ID
the man as being LHO. See below for more details.
"**: Cecil McWatter's bus, which arrived on schedule at St.Paul
Street at 12:36 pm, was due to arrive at Lamar Street at 12:40 pm but
was stalled in traffic at Griffin (two blocks east of Lamar) due to
the assassination. Oswald boarded the bus, between bus stops, at
about 12:40 pm."
Again, there is NO proof LHO boarded this bus, Harvey or Lee, as the
only person who would claim this is Mary Bledsoe and no one else
agreed with her.
"McWatters remembered that Oswald boarded the bus, paid his 23-cent
fare and, "Took the third chair back on the right." McWatters said,
"To me he had on just work clothes, he didn't have on a suit of
clothes, and some type of jacket.*** I would say a ***cloth
jacket.*** Oswald paid the fare and walked passed Mary Bledsoe, who
recognized him immediately as a former tenant who lived in her house
only a month earlier. She identified the clothing Oswald wore as "a
***brown shirt*** with holes in the elbows" and "ragged grey work
pants.""
Again, I'm surprised Armstrong would claim this is Oswald so easily as
the only person to say it was, and to say he would take the third seat
back was Bledsoe, the WC's star witness for the bus. I can only assume
he is thinking the patsy, Harvey, was following instructions in doing
this, but there is no proof he was on the bus beyond Bledsoe and the
WC's assertions. Also, LHO had NO jacket on until after he left the
boarding house, so this further proves to me this could not have been
LHO.
> **: HARVEY Oswald boarded McWatter's bus wearing a ***brown shirt***
> and grey work pants, which he later discarded and placed in the lower
> drawer of his dresser after returning to 1026 N. Beckley. He changed
> into a ***dark brown shirt*** and another piar of grey work pants
> before proceeding to the Texas Theater: The clothing described by Mrs
> Bledsoe's matched the ***brown, long-sleeve, button-down shirt*** and
> grey pants found by Dallas Police in the lower drawer of his dresser.
>
> Before giving his testimony to the WC Mrs. Bledsoe prepared notes, at
> the suggestion of SS Agent Forrest Sorrels, in order to refresh her
> memory. Reading from notes is not uncommon in courtroom proceedings,
> and is allowed in all state and federal court proceedigns (Federal
> Rules of Evidence-Rule 612 and Rule 803-S).**
>
Bus passenger Roy Milton Jones rememberd that a woman followed Oswald
onto the bus as he boarded in the middle of the intersection. Jones
told the Commission, "A blond woman and a dark haired man (Oswald)
boarded the bus approximately six blocks before Houston Street. The
man sat in the seat behind him and the woman occupied a seat further
to the rear of the bus." Jones emphasized he did not have a good view
of this man and could not positively identify him as being idential
with Lee HARVEY Oswald. Jones told the FBI the man sitting behind him
wore a ***"light blue jacket***(Oswald's flannel jacket was ***light
grey***) and gray khaki trousers." Jones casually observed a
nondescript bus passenger for a brief seconds, *and should be
commended for remembering anything at all about this man.*"
This woman is of interest to me as Weitzman would see a blonde woman,
20 to 25 years old, drop a lunch sack at a point about half a block
west of the TSBD building. At the time Weitzman thought nothing of
it, but later he will determine that this lunch sack was very similar
to the lunch sack found at the sixth floor window where the assassin
apparently stationed himself. He will bring this information to the
attention of the DPD, but nothing seems to have been done with it.
Could this be the same woman? If so, who was the man with her as we
know from McWatters and all witnesses it was NOT LHO? Could they have
been part of one of the assassin teams? This man was identified to be
between 30 to 35 years old, and had on a light blue jacket, and LHO's
blue jacket was left in the TSBD as it would be found there later on
and identified by Marina as being his.
"When the bus stopped in traffic near Poydrus a man got out of the car
in front of the bus and told McWatters the President had been shot.
Lee HARVEY Oswald got up from his seat,*as did the blond-haired
woman,* and obtained a transfer from McWatters before leaving the
bus".
Again, I do not agree with this based on McWatter's own testimony as
there is no evidence LHO, either one, took a transfer that day. I
think this was all made up to link LHO to that bus to show a pattern
of escape. Why would he get a transfer when he didn't plan on getting
on another bus? We know this because he allegedly caught a cab after
exiting the bus. Why get on a bus heading back to the area you just
left (Dealey Plaza)? Here is McWatters testimony regarding the
transfer and whether he gave it to LHO or not:
"I could NOT do it (ID LHO as the man)....I wouldn't do it (at the
line-up) and I wouldn't do it now ... No sir; I couldn't. I could NOT
identify him." (Emphasis mine)(II, 270, 279, 283)
The thing that kept this possibly from being known was that the media
failed to report this account, whereas, they widely reported the story
of the grinning assassin the day before. He was certain the man was
not LHO due to Milton Jones boarding his bus the next day (11/23/63)
and he realized this was the person who had grinned and he confused
with LHO at the lineup. The WC steered a wide path away from Jones by
never calling him to testify or find out if he received a transfer
that day. Furthermore, the transfer was good for 15 minutes only, so
why would LHO jump in a cab instead of using it then?
>**: The Secret Service estimated that Oswald rode McWatter's bus for
> ***4*** minutes. Therefore, Oswald probably exited McWatter's bus at
> approximately 12:44 pm.**
>
"McWatters told the Commission, "Yes, sir; I gave him one (bus
transfer) about two blocks from where he got on (at Griffith)....the
reason I recall the incident, I had-there was a lady that when I
stopped in this traffic, there was a lady who had a suitcase and she
said, I have to make a 1 o'clock train at Union Station...so I gave
her a transfer and got off at the same place in the middle of the
block where the lady did....it was the intersection near Lamar St."
Mary Bledsoe heard the woman's comment about the Union Staion and
said, "Why don't you walk over there. It's just a little ways.""
I liked to see where McWatters said he gave LHO a transfer in the WC
testimony as he said he did not in all I have read. In fact, he even
said he never told the DPD the number two man (LHO) in the line-up was
the same man who got on his bus. He was thinking of Jones when he
told them he resembled one of his passengers.
"...I told them (Dallas Police) that there was one man in the lineup
was about the size and the height and the complexion of A man that got
on my bus, but as far as positively identifying the man I could NOT do
it." (Emphasis mine) (II,270)
> Roy Milton Jones also rememberd the woman and said, "When the bus was
> stopped in traffic, and prior to the appearance of the police, the
> woman left the bus by the *rear door* to catch a train at the depot
> and the man who was sitting behind him (Oswald) left the bus by the
> *front door* while the bus was in the middle of the block."
>
"**: The blond-haired woman boarded McWatter's bus, in the middle of
the intersection, at the same time Oswald. She took a seat behind
Oswald and rode the bus for a couple of blocks. When the bus stalled
in traffic she, like Oswald, asked for a bus transfer and followed him
off the bus in the middle of another intersection. But this woman did
not need a bus transfer, because the Union Station was only a few
blocks ahead on McWatter's bus route. Was this woman following
Oswald? She may have followed Oswald down Lamar Street to William
Whaley's cab.**"
Exactly, why would she want a transfer if the train station was so
close? My guess is to get it to frame LHO later on with as she knew
LHO was NOT on the bus at all. Who was the man who left with her?
"A few minutes after HARVEY Oswald and the blond-haired woman left,
two policemen boarded the bus and asked each passenger if they were
carrying a weapon. These policemen have never been identified and
there are no DPD or FBI reports which indicate that any Dallas city
buses were searched on November 22, ***only the bus on which HARVEY
Oswald was a passenger:***"
This is the part that gets interesting as the police were waiting for
the bus at Marsalis St. in front of the library that LHO went to
often. The police had been called there in force, and they were
actually pulled away from the real killer of JDT who was trapped
behind the gas station in the parking lot, to apprehend some suspect
at the library. The news came over the radio they had the WRONG man
and this has lead many to ask, how did they know the person was the
wrong man unless they knew who the right man was? They would board
the bus there as well but of course there was no LHO. I believe if
there were two Oswalds, Harvey, the selected patsy, got wise and
abandoned the plan he was given and started to act erratically to get
to the safe house (Texas Theater) and did not board the bus as he was
instructed to do. He instead hoofed it and then caught a cab. It is
obvious to me, with the police boarding the bus twice this is were
they expected to catch him and either shoot him or arrest him. The
blonde woman noticed he was not on board so quickly thought to get a
transfer to have for framing purposes later on.
"**: The blond woman may have followed Oswald onto the bus for the
purpose of indentifying him to the two police officers. This raises
the distinct possibility that Oswald was to have been shot and killed
on McWatter's bus by the two unknown policemen.**"
Good point, and bailing and grabbing a transfer was plan B.
curtjester1
wrote:
eight-inches in height, slender, and said that he was wearing a
***dark shirt*** with white spots and *grey khaki pants.* He told the
Commission that Oswald's shirt was "open three buttons down" and said
that he wore a ***t-shirt*** underneath that was "a little soiled
around the collar." He also said that Oswald was wearing "some kind
of a ***jacket*** that almost matched his *(grey pants,"* and looked
like "he was 25 or 26 years old." - WC Document 5, p. 349; FBI
interview of William Whaley by SA Hardin, 11/23/63
I also don't know that LHO had a jacket on when he left the boarding
house as Earlene Roberts couldn't ID the jacket found at the Texaco as
being the same color, and people seeing the Tippit suspect as having a
light Eisenhower type jacket.
I don't know if they found a transfer on his person upon arrest or
even if he took another bus to the Texas Theater, but he certainly
would take one if he thought he could get out of traffic and find
another bus to continue. He might have not had it set in his mind to
take the cab yet, and he might have known he was just going to the
roominghouse to change clothes and could have used it after that. He
was seen briefly at the busstop in front of his roominghouse after
departing after changing clothes.
> "I could NOT do it (ID LHO as the man)....I wouldn't do it (at the
> line-up) and I wouldn't do it now ... No sir; I couldn't. I could NOT
> identify him." (Emphasis mine)(II, 270, 279, 283)
>
He probably couldn't well..as he was just seen potentially briefly.
Roy Milton Jones would have though, but I am sure was conveniently
ignored like all the problematic people, like the Texas Theater
patrons, (just reading another section here..that states he had the
punched transfer in his shirt pocket when arrested), that were
seemingly ignored...also which would include, Craig, Robinson, Cooper,
Bernard Haire, White, 12 theater patrons in the balcony (where there
was also 'an arrest', 12 folks in the main theater section, Helen
Forrest, and James Pennington.
The only thing is the rooming house. He still had to get there and
it's quite a way's from the Texas Theater. It was a nineteen minute
walk for me. Patrons saw him there much before that. If you read the
post I just put in about LEE Oswald and the Rambler...you might see a
different point of view.
CJ
robcap...@netscape.com
The jacket found at the Texaco wasn't LHO's as it belonged to the real
killer of JDT. The FBI checked every dry cleaner in the Dallas area
(over 400) and every dry cleaner in New Orleans (250 plus) and could
NOT match the laundry tag to LHO. Furthermore, the color, tannish-
grey, was not a color LHO ever owned and it was a medium, LHO only
wore small. Your assessment of him donning a jacket at the boarding
house is probably correct, he didn't, this was just said to make sense
of the jacket found.
The transfer was handled the same way the cards tying him to the alias
"A.J. Hidell" was, it was announced to be in his shirt pocket after he
was arrested and his shirt had been taken from him. I doubt it was
there and was just added later to incriminate him. He may have been,
but the WC itself would admit he began walking again (the wrong
direction of course) so it would seem taking another bus was not in
the cards. JDT would be shot just 8 minutes following Mrs. Roberts
sighting of LHO at the bus station and this occured a mile away. The
WC failed to explain how he covered a mile in 8 minutes, less really
as he was said to have talked with JDT as well before allegedly
shooting him. Furthermore, the transfer was good only for 15 minutes
and by the time he left the boarding house it would have been expired.
> > "I could NOT do it (ID LHO as the man)....I wouldn't do it (at the
> > line-up) and I wouldn't do it now ... No sir; I couldn't. I could NOT
> > identify him." (Emphasis mine)(II, 270, 279, 283)
>
"He probably couldn't well..as he was just seen potentially briefly.
Roy Milton Jones would have though, but I am sure was conveniently
ignored like all the problematic people, like the Texas Theater
patrons, (just reading another section here..that states he had the
punched transfer in his shirt pocket when arrested), that were
seemingly ignored...also which would include, Craig, Robinson, Cooper,
Bernard Haire, White, 12 theater patrons in the balcony (where there
was also 'an arrest', 12 folks in the main theater section, Helen
Forrest, and James Pennington."
Jones is the person he said the man who boarded the bus with the woman
was between 30 to 35 years old, and wore a "light-blue jacket", thus
he did see the man and would say it was NOT LHO. You are right
though, the WC of course would ignore Jones and McWatters and anyone
who said it was not LHO, which was everyone but Bledsoe.
The reason it doesn't add up for you is you are still thinking in
terms of LHO or Harvey using the path the WC said. There is no proof
he was on the bus beyond Bledsoe's word. There is no real proof he was
in Whaley's cab as the man who was picked up at the Greyhound bus
station and taken to the 500 block of North Beckley street was logged
in at 12:30 p.m., and LHO or Harvey was still at the TSBD at this
time. Finally, there is not one witness, who would say they saw LHO
at the scene of Tippit's shooting. Markham, as shown in her testimony
NEVER ID'd him by his face. This all means LHO or Harvey could have
had his clothes somewhere closer and changed or there was really only
one LHO and he left by the back door and got a ride to the boarding
house. If we follow the exact path the WC laid out I think, IMO, we
are making a mistake as they never really PROVED this really
happened.
curtjester1
six minutes from the roominghouse. Also Tippit or somebody honked at
the roominghouse when there was someone inside. I have even thought
that TSBD LHO could have been in the Rambler and been taken directly
to the theater, but that would have even been too soon. I believe he
probably got a ride there after doing the bus and cab thing. I don't
think a bus went that way down N. Beckley. It could have been
Tippit's job to take him there, and when he got him there...announce
via phone that he got him there..hence the phone call at the Top Ten
Record Store. He knew about the other LHO who he had seen just two
days earlier at the Dobbs Restaurant..and also that morning at the Top
Ten Record Store (11/22). LHO, if you read my Rambler piece was
dropped nearby at the Laundromat...then took off into the neighborhood
down the west end where the witnesses spotted him, and did some crazy
walking and even peeing in a yard. Tippit found him and either was a
patsy or something went wrong with the convesation. LHO the one with
the trimed block cut in the back, shot Tippit then went down the
street to the theater and went to the balcony. He was wearing a white
shirt, like all the witnesses said...and also was probably the one in
the TSBD on the sixth floor that came down into Mrs. Reid's office.
CJ
robcap...@netscape.com
CJ"
Someone was in Whaley's cab, but was it LHO? Whaley was very adamant
about saying the man got in at 12:30 p.m. and his log showed this.
The WC (who had to disregard almost his entire testimony to make him a
reliable witness) said he logged in quarter hour segments to overcome
this, thus, LHO could have gotten in anytime between 12:30-12:45 p.m.
The problem is Whaley's log at all kinds of times that did not jive
with the 15 minute block theory. He had pickups or dropoffs for 6:20
a.m., 7:50 a.m., 8:10 a.m., 9:40 a.m., 10:50 a.m., and 3:10 p.m. on
that day. In addition, the WC said LHO entered the cab at 12:47 or
12:48 p.m. and this would not account for Whaley noting it in the
12:30-12:45 p.m. block. All around this makes no sense. The person
that took Whaley's cab offered it to an elderly lady who was also
looking for a cab, this does not match the idea he was a "fleeing
maniac" as Bledsoe and the WC said he was. Whaley recalled in fact
"the slow way he walked up. He didn't talk. He wasn't in any hurry.
He wasn't nervous or anything." (II,261) The man also passed on
sitting in the rear of the cab and instead chose to sit up front
regardless of whether this helped him be observed better or not. This
seems unusal behavior for someone on the run who allegedly just shot
the president to me. Whaley wasn't sure about the jacket, he said it
matched the pants he was wearing, which were faded blue, but when
shown the two jackets that allegedly belonged to LHO he ID both of
them. Here is this testimony:
Mr. Ball: "Here is Commission No. 162 which is a gray jacket with
zipper."
Mr. Whaley: "I thank that is the jacket he had on when he rode with me
in the cab."
Mr. Ball: "Look something like it? And here is Commission Exhibit No.
163, does this look like anything he had on?"
Mr. Whaley: "He had this one on or the other one."
Mr. Ball: '"That is right."
Mr. Whaley: "That is what I told you I noticed. I told you about the
shirt being open, he had on the two jackets with the open shirt."
Mr. Ball: "Wait a minute, we have got the shirt which you have
identified as the rust brown shirt with the gold stripe in it."
Mr. Whaley: "Yes, sir."
Mr. Ball: "You said that a jacket--"
Mr. Whaley: "That jacket now it might have been clean, but the jacket
he had on looked more the color, you know like a uniform set, but he
had this coat here on over that other jacket, I am sure, sir."
Mr. Ball: "This is the blue-gray jacket, heavy blue-gray jacket."
Mr. Whaley: "Yes, sir." (II, 260)
The man was sitting right next to him and he said he was wearing TWO
jackets when he got into the cab. We are saying it is unlikely LHO
had one jacket on let alone two. Of course the WC knew better than
their own witness as they wrote:
"Whaley testified that Oswald was wearing either the gray zippered
jacket or the heavy blue jacket. He was in error, however. Oswald
could not possibly have been wearing the blue jaket during the trip
with Whaley, since it was found in the "domino" room of the Depository
in late November." (WCR, 163)
Here again the WC asserted they knew better than a witness, even when
the witness was sitting right next to the man! It was Tippit's car as
years of research has shown his was the only patrol car assigned to
that area at that time. No one is still sure why he was not recalled
downtown following the assassination like evey other patrol car. I'm
not sold on the bus and cab thing since no credible (by this I mean
someone who stated in exact terms what he looked liked and what he was
wearing) witness can be found to show it was LHO who was riding either
vehicle. Tippit was involved in some way, in fact, I've seen some
newer evidence that he may be the "badgeman" on the knoll, but what
his true role was is not known. The man who says he may be the
"badgeman" (based on matching 4 points in the Moorman photo and a
later photo of JDT) claims he may have been one of the cops marching
the tramps off to jail. IF this is true, and I don't know if it is or
not, then possibly someone else was riding in his car for awhile.
Remember, they found a second uniform top in the back seat of JDT's
car and it was not JDT's shirt. Some have speculated it was Roscoe
White's shirt. This can be a long, deep rabbit hole, so I stick with
the fact that no one could ID LHO at the scenes after the shooting,
except for the Theater. The escape scenario needs to be looked at
much deeper, if it can be at this late date, as it does not hold up
when you read the witness testimony.
curtjester1
is true. Whaley described a braclet that LHO was wearing because it
was unique, and LHO confirmed when asked as DPD if he took a bus and
cab..and he said affirmative. Armstrong had a theory about the police
car that was more closer to the number Roberts 'saw', but I forgot
what it was..something maybe that it was a car that was off the force
and not in use for some reason...and somebody else was using it that
day. Also you have Earlene Roberts stating Oswald came home and saw
him leave, go into the room..etc. That would be around the time
Whaley stated he dropped off and the time alloted for LHO to walk to
the house. I guess I don't know where you are coming from...because
if LHO is not in his roominghouse, then someone is...or he got home
another way? And whatever the case maybe one has to deal with, that
the one in the roominghouse couldn't have walked, even briskly to
where witnesses said they saw him on E. 10th or to the Texas Theater,
or taken a bus to get to either place.
CJ
robcap...@netscape.com
CJ"
I guess what I'm getting at is NO one said emphaitically, and on their
own, it was LHO and LHO alone that either rode the bus, took the cab
or shot JDT. Did LHO come home to his boarding house? Probably, as
his clothes were different from those he wore to work that mornining.
Was the WC scenario the only possibility? No, he could have been
dropped off at the boarding house by his conspirators, but to admit he
got a lift was unthinkable to the WC as it meant he had help,
therefore, IMO, they made up this whole escape route to get to the
boarding house on his own. How does his ID'ing a bracelet, and I had
not read this before, outtrump the log in Whaley's cab showing the man
he picked up at the bus station occured at 12:30 p.m.? I can see the
value of proving this was LHO to show he was NOT at the TSBD at the
time of the shooting, but we have the issue of Baker and Truly seeing
him AFTER the shooting in the building, thus this man who entered the
cab could not be LHO in all liklihood.
The other thing I find fascinating is the fact that all three people
responsible for placing LHO in this escape route, in terms of their WC
testimony, all died within 6 years of the crime. Whaley was the first
to go as he was involved in a car crash (first one by a Dallas cabbie
on duty since like 1934) and he was the first to die on duty while
driving a cab in Dallas. This was in December of 1965. Just one
month later Ms. Earlene Roberts joined him as she died in January of
1966 by a heart attack. Now many have said a heart attack is not
suspicious, and normally it may not be, but if one looks at all the
people who died from heart attacks that were involved in this case you
see a pattern that is anything but normal. The third and final
person, Mary Bledsoe, died of natural causes in April 1969. Again on
the surface it sounds okay, but the term "natural causes" have been
used many times to hide more sinister causes, and add in the fact she
knew David Ferrie then you have to wonder if this was natural or not.
Either way, you have all three witnesses called to try and place LHO
on the bus, the cab and near the JDT scene dead within 5 1/2 years of
the assassination. Just another coincidence?
curtjester1
> "There are two things that make me think off hand the cab/bus scenario
> is true. Whaley described a braclet that LHO was wearing because it
> was unique, and LHO confirmed when asked as DPD if he took a bus and
> cab..and he said affirmative. Armstrong had a theory about the police
> car that was more closer to the number Roberts 'saw', but I forgot
> what it was..something maybe that it was a car that was off the force
> and not in use for some reason...and somebody else was using it that
> day. Also you have Earlene Roberts stating Oswald came home and saw
> him leave, go into the room..etc. That would be around the time
> Whaley stated he dropped off and the time alloted for LHO to walk to
> the house. I guess I don't know where you are coming from...because
> if LHO is not in his roominghouse, then someone is...or he got home
> another way? And whatever the case maybe one has to deal with, that
> the one in the roominghouse couldn't have walked, even briskly to
> where witnesses said they saw him on E. 10th or to the Texas Theater,
> or taken a bus to get to either place.
>
> CJ"
>
> I guess what I'm getting at is NO one said emphaitically, and on their
> own, it was LHO and LHO alone that either rode the bus, took the cab
> or shot JDT. Did LHO come home to his boarding house? Probably, as
> his clothes were different from those he wore to work that mornining.
And his landlady said he came home at 1:00.
> Was the WC scenario the only possibility? No, he could have been
> dropped off at the boarding house by his conspirators, but to admit he
> got a lift was unthinkable to the WC as it meant he had help,
That would stand to reason, except that one would have to depend on
the conpirators picking him up unseen, if one would exclude the
Rambler.
> therefore, IMO, they made up this whole escape route to get to the
> boarding house on his own. How does his ID'ing a bracelet, and I had
> not read this before, outtrump the log in Whaley's cab showing the man
> he picked up at the bus station occured at 12:30 p.m.? I can see the
Well, a bracelet is usually nor worn by a man generally. Whaley was
affixiated with it because of it's uniqueness. I do believe it was an
item in the inventory. Cab drivers usually are not that exact on
their logs. Fifteen minute intervals are common...and many cab
drivers don't ever do anything else. The important part is not so
much the picking up, but the dropping off, IMO.
> value of proving this was LHO to show he was NOT at the TSBD at the
> time of the shooting, but we have the issue of Baker and Truly seeing
> him AFTER the shooting in the building, thus this man who entered the
> cab could not be LHO in all liklihood.
>
> The other thing I find fascinating is the fact that all three people
> responsible for placing LHO in this escape route, in terms of their WC
> testimony, all died within 6 years of the crime. Whaley was the first
> to go as he was involved in a car crash (first one by a Dallas cabbie
> on duty since like 1934) and he was the first to die on duty while
> driving a cab in Dallas. This was in December of 1965. Just one
> month later Ms. Earlene Roberts joined him as she died in January of
> 1966 by a heart attack. Now many have said a heart attack is not
> suspicious, and normally it may not be, but if one looks at all the
> people who died from heart attacks that were involved in this case you
> see a pattern that is anything but normal. The third and final
> person, Mary Bledsoe, died of natural causes in April 1969. Again on
> the surface it sounds okay, but the term "natural causes" have been
> used many times to hide more sinister causes, and add in the fact she
> knew David Ferrie then you have to wonder if this was natural or not.
> Either way, you have all three witnesses called to try and place LHO
> on the bus, the cab and near the JDT scene dead within 5 1/2 years of
I think suspicious deaths are very interesting to look at even though
it's subjective in many cases. Of course one has to look at the
motive in wanting someone offed too. David Ferrie most probably a
sinister cause. I rate Earlene Robert too because of all the
attention she got afterwards from FBI to cops to get her to change or
diffuse too many points that pointed to a consiracy. Tippit honking,
LHO leaving..when he got home. Whaley died in an accident so I think
that would be hard to stage, even though James Worrell died in a
motorcycle accident very young and not too long after the
assassination, and he saw the escaping man from behind the TSBD. I
think he hit an oil slick. That to me could have been 'arranged'.
CJ
curtjester1
Here is more on the bracelet.
Oswald's stretchband bracelet --- Whaley noticed Oswald's shiny
bracelet on his left wrist. He explained to the Warren Commission "I
always notice watchbands, unusual watchbands, and identification
bracelets like these, because I make them myself ... It was just a
common stretchband identification bracelet. A lot of them are made of
chain links and not stretchbands (Vol 2 pg 293). Stretchbands are
unusual because there is very few of them". A photograph of Oswald
taken shortly after his arrival at DPD headquarters shows a bracelet
on his left wrist. This bracelet was removed from Oswald's left wrist
at DPD headquarters and later photographed. "One I.D. stretch band
with 'Lee' inscribed" is listed on the DPD property form (Dallas
Archives --- Box 1, folder 8, item 1).
Also, Whaley came down to the police station and ID'd Oswald in a
lineup, "without hesitation."
A point I just thought of....How many Tippit murder witnesses saw a
bright shiny ID bracelet?
CJ
> CJ- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
robcap...@netscape.com
The Oswald who went to the boarding house, Harvey, could have been the
one seen getting into the Rambler. The other one, Lee, could have
been in another area of the plaza and was perhaps not seen. I don't
think we have to say Harvey took the bus and the cab to make it work
IMO.
> > therefore, IMO, they made up this whole escape route to get to the
> > boarding house on his own. How does his ID'ing a bracelet, and I had
> > not read this before, outtrump the log in Whaley's cab showing the man
> > he picked up at the bus station occured at 12:30 p.m.? I can see the
>
"Well, a bracelet is usually nor worn by a man generally. Whaley was
affixiated with it because of it's uniqueness. I do believe it was an
item in the inventory. Cab drivers usually are not that exact on
their logs. Fifteen minute intervals are common...and many cab
drivers don't ever do anything else. The important part is not so
much the picking up, but the dropping off, IMO."
If someone was trying to pass themself off as LHO why couldn't they
wear a similar bracelet? I doubt the one LHO had was rare and could
not be duplicated. The inventory was for LHO and we know he had one
on, but this still doesn't exclude someone else wearing one and trying
to pass for him. As I showed earlier, Whaley had quite a few times on
this day that had exact times, i.e. 10 minutes after or 20 minutes
before, so it doesn't seem like he kept time in 15 minute intervals.
This was made up by the WC to make it work, besides, they said he was
picked up at 12:47 or 12:48 p.m. so why would he be listed in the
12:30-12:45 p.m. block?
robcap...@netscape.com
Thanks for providing this. As I said before, and it is noted above,
the bracelet was very common so unless Whaley saw the inside with the
"Lee" inscribed in it this is all very circumstantial in my mind.
"Also, Whaley came down to the police station and ID'd Oswald in a
lineup, "without hesitation.""
There is more to the story though. In his affadavit, which he signed
on 11/23/63, he said he picked the third man which was LHO. He said
he knew he was the man for sure, but in his WC testimony in March 1964
he said he selected the number two man. The Commission would maintain
that the number two man was someone else - 18-year-old David Knapp -
and LHO was number three. Whaley tried to explain the difference by
revealing that at the request of the police that he had signed the
affadavit BEFORE he had seen the lineup. This is not normal
procedure. Here is Whaley's statement:
"I signed the statement before they carried me down to see the
lineup. I signed this statement, and then they carried me down to the
linuep at 2:30 in the afternoon." (VI, 430)
He would also say he was not sure of what he signed:
"I never saw what they had in there (the affadavit). It was all
written out by hand. The statement I saw, I think, was this one, and
that could be writing. I might not even seen this one yet. I signed
my name because THEY SAID that is what I said." (VI, 431)
As for picking out Oswald he told the Commission he had no problem
doing it because LHO was the ONLY adult as he was surrounded by
teenagers, each of whom was dressed differently from LHO. (II, 261,
294) Whaley then stated he "could have picked him out without
identifying him by just listening to him because he was bawling out
the policemen, telling them it was not right to put him in the lineup
with these teenagers and all of that and they asked me which one and I
told them...He showed no respect for the policemen, he told them what
he thought about them. They knew what they were doing and they were
trying to RAILROAD him and he wanted his lawyer....he talked that they
were doing him an injustice by putting him out there dressed different
from these other men he was out there with....he was the ONLY one who
had the bruise on his head....The only one who acted surly....you
wouldn't have had to have known who it was to have picked him out by
the way he acted." (II, 261, 294) Remember, the WC had stated it
thought the lineups had been conducted fairly.
Whaley tried to help but he just kept messing the WC's case up. I like
this quote from him myself the best: "I don't want to get you mixed up
and get your whole investigation mixed up through my ignorance, but a
good defense attorney could take me apart. I get confused." (VI,432)
You weren't the only one Whaley, the whole WC was confused. His
testimony was probably honest, but the WC had a fake time schedule to
meet so they dismantled most of what he said.
"A point I just thought of....How many Tippit murder witnesses saw a
bright shiny ID bracelet?"
Good question, I have not heard it mentioned before.
David Von Pein
>>> "Good question {which was: "How many Tippit murder witnesses saw a bright shiny ID bracelet?"}, I have not heard it mentioned before." <<<
And since the total number of times that LHO blinked his eyes after
killing Tippit wasn't mentioned by any witness either, this means Oz
is innocent. Right, kooks?
The "Anybody But Ozzie" nuts rarely fail to entertain...by just being
the kooks they so desperately seek to be.