A little Hanky-Panky for Hank Sleazant Re: the rifle

[Gil Jesus]

I don't believe that any rifle was ever shipped. I've shown on my website that the paperwork is all faked. The money order that was never paid on, the deposit that was made a month BEFORE the purchase.

They're all stage props.

The FBI had the 40" rifle serial number C2766 in their possession on the night of the assassination and they made up the paperwork AFTER the assassination to match the rifle.

It wasn't necessary for Klein's to be involved in the framing, all they had to do was whatever the FBI requested they do. If the FBI wanted blank order forms, they'd get them. If they wanted order forms filled out or partially filled out, they'd get them. All they had to say was that they wanted them for comparison. Under the circumstances, Klein's would have complied with whatever the FBI wanted.

They could very well have filled out the form and left the control number and the serial number blank. In fact, examination of the Waldman 7 indicates that more than one person filled out the form.

https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/wald_ex_7_2.jpg

This may have been the reason why Klein's shipping employees were never called to give testimony as to the authentication of the order form bearing the serial number C 2766.

In order for Oswald to have used the rifle before the attack on General Walker, he had to have ordered it in March, 1963. But the only rifle Klein's had in stock at the time was the 36" rifle. So they made the paperwork to show he purchased a 36" rifle using the same serial number as the 40" rifle, figuring no one would actually look into the rifle lengths.

That would explain why there's paperwork for a 36 " rifle bearing the serial number C2766 and a 40 " rifle with the same serial number but no paperwork.

Sorry to ruin your fantasy, but this is my opinion based on the evidence I've seen.

[Bud]

This might be significant in a world where your opinion matters.

[Gil Jesus]

> This might be significant in a world where your opinion matters.

Or yours.

[Bud]

On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 12:49:08 PM UTC-5, gjjma...@gmail.com wrote:
> > This might be significant in a world where your opinion matters.
> Or yours.

I`m not starting posts that say "This is what I`ve decided to believe, so there!"

Your lazy was of explaining any information that contradicts your silly ideas is to just say it is faked. This might be enough to impress someone who has an eggplant as a brain like your fellow conspiracy believers, but you can`t expect it to sway any thinking person.

[Gil Jesus]

Bud, believe everything your government and CNN tells you. Get your booster shots, wear your mask and go over and sit down in the corner and STFU because this has NOTHING to do with you.

[Bud]

On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 1:43:43 PM UTC-5, gjjma...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 1:34:09 PM UTC-5, Bud wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 12:49:08 PM UTC-5, gjjma...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > This might be significant in a world where your opinion matters.
> > > Or yours.
> > I`m not starting posts that say "This is what I`ve decided to believe, so there!"
> >
> > Your lazy was of explaining any information that contradicts your silly ideas is to just say it is faked. This might be enough to impress someone who has an eggplant as a brain like your fellow conspiracy believers, but you can`t expect it to sway any thinking person.
> Bud, believe everything your government and CNN tells you.

You hold the government in such high regard you think they can do anything, even the impossible.

>Get your booster shots, wear your mask and go over and sit down in the corner and STFU because this has NOTHING to do with you.

Enjoy your stupid hobby Gil, I just like to splash a little reality in your face once in a while.

[Chuck Schuyler]

False dichotomy or false dilemma fallacy.

Claiming the FBI created/altered/forged paperwork to pin the rifle on Oswald to frame him is called begging the question.

[Steven Galbraith]

Crist, you guys think "the government" can do anything. And then cover it all up for nearly 60 years.
You actually think "the government" - Republicans and Democrats and liberal and conservatives - could get together and pull this off? Why in the hell would a government run by Republicans in, say 1985, protect LBJ and the Democrats who largely would have been the people doing all of this? Republicans hate Democrats. And vice versa. They're not going to protect each other. They want to destroy each other.
We have had 2-3 generations of people in Washington over the past 60 years. It's absurd to think that a generation today would cover for something done by others 60 years earlier. For what reason? You think someone in the CIA today is going to protect what they did in 1963? Why?
You view "the government" as if it's some giant blob or single "thing". It's not. It's bureaucracies and people with their own agendas and interests. There is no interest today for someone or some group to protect what others did more than a half a century before.
Besides, you can't do what you guys claims happened.

[Scrum Drum]

On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 10:38:23 AM UTC-5, gjjma...@gmail.com wrote:

> The FBI had the 40" rifle serial number C2766 in their possession on the night of the assassination and they made up the paperwork AFTER the assassination to match the rifle.
>

When I first saw this theory on the Education Forum I thought it was nuts and another example of over-active imaginations but the more I tried to refute it the more it became clear, crazy as it was, that it had merit...


The FBI actually went around tracing the trail of a putatively real order for the rifle and got all the personnel in the relevant bureaucracies out of bed and opening their offices in order to get the paper stock and equipment to forge a real order...They pinned that order and rifle on Oswald the night of the assassination which means he never had that gun in his possession...The reason there was a 40 inch Carcano found at the Book Depository is because by the time they decided to frame Oswald Kleins Sporting Goods had run out of 36 inch stock...The 40 inch rifle is therefore, in effect, evidence of the framing of Oswald with that rifle...

[Steven Galbraith]

And you think all of these people simply went along. None liked JFK? They all went along with the murder of their president and what was essentially a traitorous coup.
None were patriots? None voted for JFK. None refused to go along. All remained silent for the rest of their lives.
You actually believe such a world exists?

[Steven Galbraith]

If I believed half of this conspiracy stuff I'd be on the first plane out of the country. If my government is that corrupt, that evil, it's not worth staying here.

[Steven Galbraith]

Or I would be marching on Washington.
But I don't think you people really truly believe all of this. It's just a hobby, you're just engaging in the old dorm bullshit sessions that we all did in college. If you truly do believe this then get some help because this is flat out loony tune stuff.

[Scrum Drum]

They just had to open their offices...FBI did the rest...

[Chuck Schuyler]

Conspiracism crosses political lines, and that's what these guys are: believers in conspiracism, a sort of social malady that is generally harmless but can unfortunately claim a victim from time-to-time. Clay Shaw's life was wrecked by Garrison's conspiracism and cost Shaw his life savings while defending himself in court.

Not ONE conspiracism-afflicted kook at this board has an actual JFK conspiracy THEORY. They all want us to answer their begged questions to their satisfaction, which is, of course, impossible.

On a side note, I knew it was just a matter of time before Qanon veered into JFK conspiracyland, but apparently the Qanon nuts descended on Dealey Plaza recently:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/qanon-supporters-jfk-jr-dallas-b1962575.html

[Chuck Schuyler]

Super simple.

"Smithers?"

"Yes, J. Edgar!"

"Start forging paperwork so that little commie in Dallas looks like he ordered a rifle to shoot at JFK! That's an order from LBJ through me!"

"Yes, sir, right away sir! Oh, and if I may say so Mr. Hoover, those earrings compliment the blue pattern in your dress very nicely!"

"Thanks Smithers! Now hop to it!"

[Steven Galbraith]

So they just sat there and watched as their president was murdered and overthrown? I'm sure some of them voted for JFK, loved him. He had 65% approval ratings at the time. Some served in WWII, fighting against fascism. You think they just stood there and watched everything they believe in completely destroyed? They did nothing?
My great uncle landed on Normandy on D-day. My great-great-grandfather fought at Gettysburg for the Army of Pennsylvania. My late father fought in Korea. I'm sure all of us have some similar story. A grandfather, a great uncle.
Would we just sit there and allow all of their sacrifices to be tossed away? We'd just watch our president treated like that? No we wouldn't. We'd be screaming bloody hell.
Take a minute and seriously consider what you think happened. It makes no sense. It's simply not possible. You know it deep in your heart. And head. Give it up, this didn't happen.

[healyd...@gmail.com]

Some folks of the WC got in. the way of a fair and complete investigation, moron.... A few conjured towards conclusions and direction they wanted... is that absurd? Think again Einstein... it's why you are sweating it out, on a daily basis, nearly 60 years after the fact.

[Scrum Drum]

There's nothing in there that precludes them being told "Yes, we know it was the commies but Hoover and the president have decided the best national strategy is to avoid World War III" etc...

[Steven Galbraith]

Some "folks got in the way." And the rest just let them? Norm Redlich was the chief author of the report. By all accounts he was at the center of the investigation. Redlich was a man of the left. He took on and attacked McCarthy, he disliked Hoover (and Hoover disliked him). Redlich went on to establish the New York University School of Law. He devoted his life to civil liberties, to defending the poor. If you think he would go along with a coverup of the murder of JFK then you're not thinking straight. In fact, to use your word, you're a moron.
Joseph Ball was one of the lead attorneys on the WC. He was lifelong defense attorney known for representing the rights of the accused. If you think he covered up what happened or allowed it to happen then, again, to use your word you're a moron.
The HSCA came to the same conclusion about Oswald. He fired the shots that killed JFK. Some unknown gunman may have been on the knoll. But Oswald was the man who killed JFK.
We've had numerous news organizations investigate the murder. They found none of this conspiracy nonsense you believe in.
So all of these people "got in the way"? Democrats and liberals and Kennedy lovers? They allowed this to happen?
This is absurd. Nobody seriously believes it. You guys are just having dorm room bullshit sessions. Fine, have your fun but nobody thinks you're serious. I don't even think you believe in any of this.
That's not what you claim. You come here day after day with this nonsense of more than half a century of coverups. It's not just the WC, yo

[healyd...@gmail.com]

whining does not change the truth, but, it certainly provides your nonsense a face...

After 60 years just a *few* things have cropped up... lmao!

[Steven Galbraith]

I'll just note that you ignored every point I made. If you think two or three generations of Americans since the assassination and who have gone on to attain power in Washington heading these agencies or serving under them - including people who loved JFK - would cover up for his murder then you are thinking foolish things.
It cannot be done. It wasn't.

[Hank Sienzant]

First off, your title is ad hominem. My name is Sienzant. You put Sleazant. I have to believe, like Ben calling me Huckster, that’s deliberate, and not a misspelling.

If you were confident in your evidence and arguments you would not need to resort to ad hominem.

On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 10:38:23 AM UTC-5, gjjma...@gmail.com wrote:

> I don't believe that any rifle was ever shipped.

Your opinion is not the default, and it is not fact-based. I’ll establish you’re ignoring the evidence to the contrary in this post.

> I've shown on my website that the paperwork is all faked. The money order that was never paid on, the deposit that was made a month BEFORE the purchase.
>
> They're all stage props.

The evidence says otherwise. Read on and weep.

>
> The FBI had the 40" rifle serial number C2766 in their possession on the night of the assassination and they made up the paperwork AFTER the assassination to match the rifle.

Not according to the evidence. William Waldman’s testimony is evidence, and he testified that Klein’s business records (also evidence) establish the C2766 rifle was shipped to Oswald’s post office Box 2915, and payment was made by money order in the amount of $21.45:
== quote ==
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, were you ever contacted by any law enforcement agency about the disposition of this Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that had the serial number C-2766 on it?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the night of November 22, 1963, the FBI contacted our company in an effort to determine whether the gun had been in our possession and, if so, what disposition we had made of it.
…
Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time, what period that they felt you might have received this rifle originally?
Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a record of when it had
been shipped, so we knew the approximate date of receipt by us, and from that we made---let's see, we examined our microfilm records which show orders from mail order customers and related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had been shipped by us.
Mr. BELIN. Are these microfilm records part of your customary recording of transactions of your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; they are.
Mr. BELIN. I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77 and ask you if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is a microfilm record that---of mail order transactions for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to the FBI.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you are reading from the carton containing that microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on the date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the investigation.
…
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's a number which we assign for identification purposes.
Mr. BELIN. And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it shows this particular rifle was shipped
Mr. WALDMAN. Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. And does it show any serial number or control number?
Mr. WALDMAN. It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number VC-836 and serial number C-2766.
Mr. BELIN. Is there a price shown for that?
Mr. WALDMAN. Price is $19.95, plus $1.50 postage and handling, or a total of $21.45.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I see another number off to the left. What is this number?
Mr. WALDMAN. The number that you referred to, C20-T750 is a catalog number.
Mr. BELIN. And after that, there appears some words of identification or description. Can you state what that is?
Mr. WALDMAN. The number designates an item which we sell, namely, an Italian carbine, 6.5 caliber rifle with the 4X scope.
Mr. BELIN. Is there a date of shipment which appears on this microfilm record?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the date of shipment was March 20, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Does it show by what means it was shipped?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was shipped by parcel post as indicated by this circle around the letters "PP."
Mr. BELIN. Does it show if any amount was enclosed with the order itself?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the amount that was enclosed with the order was $21.45, as designated on the right-hand side of this order blank here.
Mr. BELIN. Opposite the words "total amount enclosed"?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything which indicates in what form you received the money?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; below the amount is shown the letters "MO" designating money order.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I see the extreme top of this microfilm, the date, March 13, 1963; to what does that refer?
Mr. WALDMAN. This is an imprint made by our cash register indicating that the remittance received from the customer was passed through our register on that date.
Mr. BELIN. And to the right of that, I see $21.45. Is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
== unquote ==


Now, Federal Rules of Evidence (specifically 803.6) establish Waldman’s testimony and the microfilm are admissible evidence:
== quote ==
(6) Records of a Regularly Conducted Activity. A record of an act, event, condition, opinion, or diagnosis if:
(A) the record was made at or near the time by — or from information transmitted by — someone with knowledge;
(B) the record was kept in the course of a regularly conducted activity of a business, organization, occupation, or calling, whether or not for profit;
(C) making the record was a regular practice of that activity;
(D) all these conditions are shown by the testimony of the custodian or another qualified witness…
== unquote ==


The evidence says the C2766 rifle was shipped from Klein’s to Oswald’s PO Box 2915. Waldman is the expert here, as he designed the osystem:
== quote ==
Mr. BELIN. …This is a photostatic copy of a document, is it not?
Mr. WALDMAN. It is.
Mr. BELIN. And is the original copy, or was the original copy prepared by someone under your direction or supervision?
Mr. WALDMAN. The original was prepared under a system which I originated…
== unquote ==

>
> It wasn’t necessary for Klein’s to be involved in the framing, all they had to do was whatever the FBI requested they do. If the FBI wanted blank order forms, they'd get them.

Except now you are making stuff up and ignoring the evidence. That’s not the right way to resolve any issue, let alone a capital crime.

> If they wanted order forms filled out or partially filled out, they'd get them.

You need to establish that, not conjecture it.

> All they had to say was that they wanted them for comparison. Under the circumstances, Klein's would have complied with whatever the FBI wanted.

Waldman affirmed and the microfilm confirms nothing like that happened. These were Klein’s business records, admissible evidence. You’re ignoring the evidence and substituting wishes for facts.

>
> They could very well have filled out the form and left the control number and the serial number blank.

Again: Waldman affirmed and the microfilm confirms nothing like that happened. These were Klein’s business records, admissible evidence. You’re ignoring the evidence and substituting wishes for facts.

> In fact, examination of the Waldman 7 indicates that more than one person filled out the form.

And this is suspicious exactly why? Tell us, as the forum’s reigning expert on Klein’s business practices, exactly what the order flow was, and why the document should have only one person’s handwriting.

Go ahead, we’ll wait.

>
> https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/wald_ex_7_2.jpg
>
> This may have been the reason why Klein's shipping employees were never called to give testimony as to the authentication of the order form bearing the serial number C 2766.

As the actual expert at Klein’s (he had been previously been employed at Sears & Roebuck, and Spiegal’s, two other big mail-order retailers, and designed Klein’s system), Waldman was the perfect person to testify to the business records — see 803.(6).D.

You don’t seriously think an order filler or shipping clerk is going to remember the details of one specific order from over a year previously. You can’t. Do you? That’s what the Klein’s business records attest to. And why the business records are admissible.

>
> In order for Oswald to have used the rifle before the attack on General Walker, he had to have ordered it in March, 1963.

Plenty of evidence shows he did.

> But the only rifle Klein's had in stock at the time was the 36" rifle.

Untrue — the April advertisement, in magazines available on newsstands in March, establishes that Klein’s knew they were running out of the 36” rifle and were now shipping the 40” one.

> So they made the paperwork to show he purchased a 36" rifle using the same serial number as the 40" rifle, figuring no one would actually look into the rifle lengths.

The “paperwork” was on microfilm. Waldman affirmed the microfilm is the business records of Klein’s:
== quote ==
Mr. BELIN. Are these microfilm records part of your customary recording of transactions of your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; they are.
== unquote ==

>
> That would explain why there's paperwork for a 36 " rifle bearing the serial number C2766 and a 40 " rifle with the same serial number but no paperwork.

There is only one 40” MC rifle known to exist. The paperwork establishes that weapon had the serial number C2766 and was shipped to Oswald’s PO Box 2915. By all means, if you have actual documentation for another MC with a serial number of C2766, present it here.

>
> Sorry to ruin your fantasy, but this is my opinion based on the evidence I've seen.

Sorry to ruin yours. Above is what the *evidence* establishes. None of it is *my opinion*.

None of it.

[Hank Sienzant]

Correction:
There is only one 40” MC rifle known to exist [with the serial number of C2766]…

[Steven Galbraith]

It seems that none of these people who stood around and watched the FBI and others falsify and manufacture evidence liked JFK. Or cared about what essentially was a coup. They all let this happen. And then remained silent about it.
This is all fantasy talk. This is simply conspiracists imagining how it *could* be done; there's no evidence that this was how it was done. It's simply make believe, a sort of conspiracy reverse engineering when you start with a premise that it occurred and then argue backwards. "They faked this and faked that, they manufactured this and manufactured that..."
What a bunch of hooey. It has to be the silliest hobby imaginable.

[Hank Sienzant]

And *almost everyone* was at a minimum part of the coverup, if not the conspiracy as well.

You and me too, because we argue against the conspiracy.

[Steven Galbraith]

True, who is sillier? These people who in their misguided thoughts think they really are changing history, really exposing the crime of the century? Or us for disagreeing with them? I guess we can consider this a sort of charity work. We're helping society. Yeah, that's it.

[healyd...@gmail.com]

any effort to bring forth fact is a good effort, whether your effort holds water, that is another story -- and that sums the entire 1964 WCR question.

Or us for disagreeing with them? I guess we can consider this a sort of charity work. We're helping society. Yeah, that's it.

might want to reverse the "us" in that nonsensical diatribe... this entire forum is built around 'more than one participant in the killing of JFK.' It is the critic's of the 1964 WCR conclusions that disagree with the adherents of the WCR (you). As you know, you are stuck defending those WCR conclusions. graceful like or, flopping around albatross wrapped in 5 miles of fishing line... lots of movement and noise but no progress...

Have a nice holiday weekend...

[John Corbett]

Anyone who believes that anything that goes on inside this forum has any significance outside this forum is only fooling themselves. This is nothing more than a mildly amusing hobby that interests mainly old geezers. (I turned 70 today so I think I qualify now as an old geezer).

[Bud]

Happy Birthday, John! If you hang in there 10-15 more years you can witness this silly hobby go out with a whimper. It never went anywhere because there was never anywhere for it to go.

[Bruce]

I don't think the way the 2s are written indicates much...handwriting can vary quite a bit, especially when one is writing something down quickly like a single number.