What Prouty says about "right wing" jazz
Michael Kelly
From a web page dedicated to L. Fletcher Prouty:
http://mindlink.bc.ca/craig_nelson/fletch3.html#NEWS
Col. L. Fletcher Prouty Responds to Accusations of Involvement in Right
Wing Extremist Groups
Interview Date: April 3, 1996
"Esquire magazine published an article, in which they just made up these
things, I've never written for Liberty Lobby. I've spoken as a
commercial speaker, they paid me to speak and then I left. They write a
paragraph or two of my speech same as they would of anybody else, but
I've never joined them. I don't subscribe to their newspaper, I never go
to their own meetings, but they had a national convention at which asked
me to speak and they paid me very, very well. I took my money and went
home and that's it".
"The funny thing was two months earlier I had spoken at the Holocaust
Conference for the second annual meeting of the Holocaust Group which I
understand the Liberty Lobby is completely opposed to, and again I get
paid, I go to the meeting, I go home, I don't join.
Well, they put all this in this Esquire magazine but did it all
backwards, as though I was writing with these people or joining them.
The only club I've joined is the Rotary Club !".
Col. Prouty has been asked to speak again at the Holocaust Conference
later this year !
ciao
--
Mike
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition
from mediocre minds."
- Albert Einstein
Joe Knapp
>"Esquire magazine published an article, in which they just made up these
>things, I've never written for Liberty Lobby. I've spoken as a
>commercial speaker, they paid me to speak and then I left.
Also joining the board of the LL Populist Action Committee. Oh yeah, and
appearing on their radio show on shortwave dozens of times, and publishing
his book through their Holocaust-denial outlet, Noontide Press.
>I've never joined them. I don't subscribe to their newspaper,
Weasel words. They give him free subscriptions. He reads them. He says,
"If anyone wants to know what's going on in the world today, they'd
read Spotlight."
>I never go
>to their own meetings, but they had a national convention at which asked
>me to speak and they paid me very, very well. I took my money and went
>home and that's it".
Was it forty pieces of silver?
>"The funny thing was two months earlier I had spoken at the Holocaust
>Conference for the second annual meeting of the Holocaust Group which I
>understand the Liberty Lobby is completely opposed to, and again I get
>paid, I go to the meeting, I go home, I don't join.
Yeah, and the Freemen are completely opposed to the Michigan Militia.
I'd like to find out exactly what this "Holocaust Group" represents.
>Well, they put all this in this Esquire magazine
Thanks for the tip on the Esquire article.
Question: why are you so skeptical of everything uttered by a "government"
source, but lap up everything Prouty says without comment?
---
Joe Knapp
Jim Hargrove
[....]
>Question: why are you so skeptical of everything uttered by a "government"
>source, but lap up everything Prouty says without comment?
Nice touch. Why not go a step further with a tautology that says anyone who
believes there was likely a US Intel connection with Oswald and the
assassination--and that Prouty was in an interesting position to see
something--just must be anti-Semitic?
If Prouty is a prejudiced old man, too bad for him. As CIA-Air Force liason
at the time of the assassination, he had some interesting observations, even
on the way back from that important trip to the South Pole. The whole Oswald
saga, from Russia to New Orleans to Mexico to Dallas, just bristles with
intelligence activity--all of it suppressed by all those government hearings
and reports.
Are we to continue with this suppression by reframing the debate to exclude
possible culpability of the alphabet agencies--not just in the coverup but in
the original crime as well--because a handful of dimwits are marching around
in the woods with loaded rifles or because prejudice exists? If Col. Prouty
had anti-Semitic associations, I guess we have to know about them. If he ever
published anti-Semitic remarks, we should know about them too. (Anyone have a
citation?) Maybe they'll publish him at TIME.
In December 1963, Lt. John E. Donovan, Oswald's immediate supervisor and
superior at USMC Air Control Squadron 9, said that Oswald's defection:
"... compromised all our secret radio frequencies, call signs and
authentication codes.... He knew the location of every unit on the West
Coast and the radar capability of every installation. We had to spend
several thousand man-hours changing everything and verifying the
destruction of codes."
--NYTimes, 12/5/63
Marguerite Oswald perhaps knew why her son wasn't prosecuted as a traitor when
he was helped by the State Department to re-enter the U.S. As she told the
Warren Commission, he was "doing special work" as "an agent of the
government." (1 H 142, 191, 233)
Just because I believe much evidence seems to point to a rat's nest in U.S.
Intelligence organizations and by extension some State Department foreign
policy circles, it doesn't follow that I must hate America or its government
as a whole, or, for that matter, join the Illinois Militia (if there is such a
thing). I just want my country's history back, and incessant attacks on
Prouty, COPA, Lisa, Dr. Aguilar, militias, UFO's, and the whole
danger-from-the-right extravaganza don't seem to be getting the job done.
I'll go out on a limb and predict these endless attacks don't have the
slightest chance of getting the real job done.
--Jim Hargrove
count_klaus_schenck_von_stauffenberg
>
> From a web page dedicated to L. Fletcher Prouty:
>
>
> http://mindlink.bc.ca/craig_nelson/fletch3.html#NEWS
>
> Col. L. Fletcher Prouty Responds to Accusations of Involvement in Right
> Wing Extremist Groups
>
> Interview Date: April 3, 1996
>
> things, I've never written for Liberty Lobby. I've spoken as a
> paragraph or two of my speech same as they would of anybody else, but
> to their own meetings, but they had a national convention at which asked
> me to speak and they paid me very, very well. I took my money and went
> home and that's it".
>
> Conference for the second annual meeting of the Holocaust Group which I
> understand the Liberty Lobby is completely opposed to, and again I get
> paid, I go to the meeting, I go home, I don't join.
>
> backwards, as though I was writing with these people or joining them.
> The only club I've joined is the Rotary Club !".
>
> Col. Prouty has been asked to speak again at the Holocaust Conference
> later this year !
>
>
Since some members of this newsgroup have mentioned a certain L.
Fletcher Prouty, I thought it might be worthwhile to post some
information on this fellow, a former Air Force Colonel. The following
is taken from Edward J. Epstein's THE ASSASSINATION CHRONICLES.
Aside from advising Oliver Stone, Prouty is also extremely active
with other conspiracy-hunters. He served, for example, as
editorial adviser to publications of the futuristic Church of
Scientology; as a consultant to the far right Lyndon LaRouche
Organization, who also provided its convention with a presentation
comparing the U.S. government's prosecution of Lyndon LaRouche (for
mail fraud) "to the persecution of Socrates"; a board member of
the Populist Action Committee, where he joined Robert Weems, a
former leader of the Ku Klux Klan, and John Rarick, the organizer
of the White Citizens Council; and as a featured speaker for the
anti-civil rights organization called the Liberty Lobby, whose
founder, Willis Carto, also set up the Institute for Historic
Review, a disseminator of books and videotapes that allege that
the Nazi death camps in Europe were fictions devised by Zionist
propaganda to justify tax money being donated to Israel. (It also
published Prouty's own book, THE SECRET TEAM: THE CIA AND ITS
ALLIES IN CONTROL OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE WORLD.)
Prouty also exposed the machinations of putative global
conspiracies. For example, when the Liberty Lobby held its annual
Board of Policy convention in 1991, he presented a special
seminar, "Who Is the Enemy?," which blamed the high price of oil
on a systematic plot of a cabal to shut down oil pipelines
deliberately in the Middle East. "Why?" he asked, and explained
to the seminar: "Because of the Israelis. That is their business
on behalf of the oil companies. That's why they get $3 billion a
year from the U.S. taxpayer." His enemy list also included the
CIA, usurers, school textbooks, the media, political parties,
international banks, federal crises-planning exercises, and the
U.S.-Soviet Trade and Economic Council (which, according to
Prouty, had stage-managed, along with David Rockefeller, the
liquidation of the Berlin Wall to profit from "the rubles and the
gold").
So this is the intellectual provenance of the man Oliver Stone
chose as his technical adviser--and the man called "X" . . . .
Prouty/X's secret knowledge about the elite's organizing principle
and the "war system" derives from a very special source--a
suppressed Kennedy administration study, which he discussed in the
Liberty Lobby's Radio Free America on December 14, 1989. He
explained that this study was so secret that the group of "power
brokers" who conducted it met, according to Prouty, "in an
underground storate and security area" in the Hudson Valley of New
York called "Iron Mountain." The explosive issue they addressed
was: Could America survive "if and when a condition of permanent
peace should arise"? Their conclusion, which "X" would echo
in the film JFK two years later, was "the organization of society
for the possibility of war is its principal political stabilizer";
without a believable war threat "no government could remain in
power," and consequently "the elimination of war . . . implies the
eventual elimination of national sovereignty." He explains on
this radio program and in a subsequent issue of SPOTLIGHT, the
newspaper of the Liberty Lobby, that these conclusions come
directly from the report from this Iron Mountain group--which he
has obtained a copy of (and that the Institute for Historic Review
republished). He concludes the program by relating about the
"high cabal . . . calling the shots."
While Prouty quotes accurately from the "Report from Iron
Mountain," he fails to realize it was a complete hoax. There was
no group in underground storage vaults in Iron Mountain, no study
of the elimination of the war threat, no report from power
brokers. The "Report from Iron Mountain" was a brilliant spoof by
political satirist Leonard Lewin of think tanks in 1967. . . .
[Lewin could not] forsee . . . that this hoax would reemerge a
quarter of a century later, first in radical-right radio
broadcasts and Liberty Lobby publications, and then as the
connective logic of Oliver Stone's film JFK. (pp. 578-580)
Let me make two quick observations about this: I don't know if Prouty
has seen the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, but if he has
I'll bet he believes that too.
And I've never heard the Liberty Lobby's radio broadcasts, but they
seem to be rather similar to those on Pacifica Radio.
simon_weisenthal
>
> From a web page dedicated to L. Fletcher Prouty:
>
>
> http://mindlink.bc.ca/craig_nelson/fletch3.html#NEWS
>
> Col. L. Fletcher Prouty Responds to Accusations of Involvement in Right
> Wing Extremist Groups
>
> Interview Date: April 3, 1996
Fletcher Prouty in New Zealand
or
Much Ado About Nothing
by David Perry
"In a long account in the 'Christchurch Star' about Lee Harvey
Oswald -- which included that fine studio portrait in a business
suit, white shirt, and tie -- these press services provided, and
the Star published some very interesting information.
According to the account, Lee Harvey Oswald:
"defected to the Soviet Union in 1959"
"returned to the United States in 1962"
"has a [Russian] wife and child"
"worked in a factory in Minsk"
"went to the USSR following discharge from the Marine Corps"
"became disillusioned with life there [in the USSR]"
"Soviet authorities had given him permission to return with
his wife and child"
"had been chairman of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee"
. . . and much more."
"By what process could the wire services have acquired,
collated, evaluated, written, and then transmitted all that
material about an unknown young man named Lee Harvey Oswald within
the first moments following that tragic and 'unexpected' event --
even before the police had charged him? . . ." (1)
Prouty is not logical in his efforts to convince us that the
communication was extremely swift. In my opinion he needs to
recheck his times as well as press sources operating at that moment
in time. Additionally, Oswald was not the unknown young man Prouty
claims nor was it difficult to obtain details on Oswald once he was
taken into custody. First consider the time zone shift.
Prouty admits, "For those of us who just happened to be in
far-off Christchurch, New Zealand, for example, the Kennedy
assassination took place at seven-thirty on the morning of
Saturday, November 23, 1963." (2)
He then continues, "As soon as possible, the Christchurch Star
hit the streets with an "Extra" edition." (3) Read a little further
and you discover "as soon as possible" becomes "This newspaper ran
an "Extra" edition that was on the streets before noon in
Christchurch." (4)
Prouty creates confusion by maintaining the release of
information on Oswald could not occur until Oswald was charged with
the crime. Any student of the Kennedy assassination remembers
Oswald wasn't charged for many hours and then for the Tippit
shooting. He was, however, taken into custody at 1:50 PM. (8:50 AM,
New Zealand time.) The Warren Report referencing Dallas Police
Chief Jessie Curry's testimony at 12H30, the testimony of reporter
Glen King at 15H55 and King's notations in Decker Exhibit four
(DE4) shows the press had knowledge Oswald was in custody "within
an hour of Oswald's arrest." (10:00 AM, New Zealand time.) In fact,
King points out there was a live TV news broadcast concerning
Oswald at 3:26 PM (10:26 AM, New Zealand time.)
To me and by Prouty's own admission the newspaper had at least
two hours to get the "extra" on the street. To make this perfectly
clear, we can convert Dallas events to Prouty's time zone (New
Zealand). Kennedy is shot at 7:30 AM. Oswald is taken into custody
at 9:00 AM. The press knew of Oswald's being in custody by 10:AM,
and could start their research on him. King's live TV coverage
commenced at 10:26 AM. In essence, the New Zealand newspaper would
have from shortly after 10:00 AM to 11:30 AM to get the "Extra"
out. Remember an "Extra" is not a complete newspaper. It is a quick
compilation of immediate facts on a specific subject. The "Extra"
is wrapped around the previous issue.
We next tackle the question of ""By what process could the
wire services have acquired, collated, evaluated, written, and then
transmitted all that material about an unknown young man named Lee
Harvey Oswald . . ."
Prouty is old enough to remember that Oswald was not unknown.
In November of 1959 the newspapers were alive with articles about
young men deserting to the Soviet Union. In a rather brief period
there were detailed reports not only about Oswald's defection but
that of Nicholas Petrulli and Robert Webster. There was also
extensive coverage of each individuals return to the United States
during May and June of 1962.
Specific to Prouty's claims about Oswald:
"defected to the Soviet Union in 1959"
This was reported along with the Petrulli/Webster defections
in The Washington Post, 11/01/59, The Washington Evening Star,
11/25/59 and The New York Times, 11/01/59.
"returned to the United States in 1962"
Reported in The Washington Post, 06/09/62 with additional
notes that a total of three Americans had returned home. Besides
Oswald, Webster returned as an immigrant in May, 1962 and david
Johnson returned with his wife and twin sons within a week of his
defection.
"has a [Russian] wife and child"
Reported in The Washington Post, 06/09/62.
"worked in a factory in Minsk"
I was unable to find an appropriate New York or Washington
press citation for this item although it was well reported in the
Dallas/Fort Worth newspapers.
"went to the USSR following discharge from the Marine Corps"
The Washington Post, 11/01/59, The Washington Post, 11/16/59,
The Washington Evening Star, 11/25/59 and The New York Times,
11/01/59.
"became disillusioned with life there [in the USSR]"
The Washington Post, 11/01/59, The Washington Evening Star,
11/25/59.
"Soviet authorities had given him permission to return with
his wife and child"
The Washington Post, 06/09/62.
"had been chairman of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee"
Mr. Prouty forgets that Oswald on or about August 10, 1963
while in New Orleans had "approached the city editor of 'The
States-Item' newspaper, cajoling him into give more coverage to the
FPCC campaign." (5) Later he had an altercation with some anti-
Castro Cubans which resulted in his arrest. On August 16, Oswald
was filmed by WDSU and WWL passing out FPCC leaflets. He was
contacted by the local radio station and appeared espousing Marxist
and FPCC views on the radio show "Latin Listening Post."
"In a long account in the "Christchurch Star' about Lee Harvey
Oswald -- which included that fine studio portrait in a business
suit, white shirt, and tie -- these press services provided . . ."
This photograph appeared on page two of The Fort Worth Press,
11/16/59 with an article by Kent Bifle entitled "Turncoat Hangs Up
on Mother."
There are many legitimate pro-conspiracy researchers that
spend much time refuting the distortions printed by many
sensationalist authors such as Prouty. Prouty only succeeds in
confusing the novices and clouding the historical record. As friend
and fellow researcher Harold Weisberg once said "If it won't sell,
if it doesn't fit their theories then they will make it up."
(1) L. Fletcher Prouty, JFK (New York, NY: Birch Lane Press, 1992),
pp. 308-309.
(2) Ibid. p. 306
(3) Ibid
(4) Ibid
(5) Anthony Summers, Conspiracy (New York: Paragon House, 1989),
p. 272.
(C) Copyright 1993 David B. Perry
David Perry
4601 Ainsworth Circle
Grapevine, Texas
adolph_schicklgruber
>
> From a web page dedicated to L. Fletcher Prouty:
>
>
> http://mindlink.bc.ca/craig_nelson/fletch3.html#NEWS
>
> Col. L. Fletcher Prouty Responds to Accusations of Involvement in Right
> Wing Extremist Groups
>
> Interview Date: April 3, 1996
Fletcher Prouty, Mark Lane,
JFK Assassination Theories,
& the Fascist Right
=========================================================
I am posting this at the request of some folks who are
active in this conference. Please do not deluge me with
E-mail. When I use the terms conspiracist, conspiracism,
and conspiracy theory, I mean theories for which there is
inadequate information to draw reasonable conclusions. I
am well aware that there are numerous actual conspiracies,
especially among government officials. I have worked on
many lawsuits against the FBI and CIA trying to prove
such conspiracies. -Chip Berlet
=========================================================
Excerpted & adapted from:
RIGHT WOOS LEFT:
Populist Party, LaRouchian, and Other
Neo-fascist Overtures To Progressives, And Why
They Must Be Rejected
November 22, 1993
by Chip Berlet [cbe...@igc.apc. org]
Copyright 1993, Political Research Associates
Peacenet conference <publiceye>
Local BBS (617) 221-5815 (2400, 8,N,1)
For electronic viewing only, unmodified
distribution is authorized, for printed
copy of current version send $7.50 to:
Political Research Associates
678 Massachusetts Avenue, Suite 702
Cambridge, MA 02139 (617) 661-9313
=========================================================
Populist Party/Liberty Lobby
Recruitment of Anti-CIA Critics
It was the casualties of the Vietnam war that
crystallized a right-wing critique of U.S.
foreign policy that denounced U.S. reliance on
covert action, counterinsurgency and political
deals as tactical alternatives to military
confrontation to achieve geo-political goals. The
right-wing analysis raised questions that many
citizens were asking. If we didn't want to fight
a war to win in the traditional sense, then why
did all those soldiers have to die? What was the
purpose? Where was the benefit to the U.S.? Who
gained from this process? These questions were
not asked only by persons on the right, but the
answers and theories the right developed were far
different than those proposed by the left.
The public debate over this issue expanded in
1973 with publication of the book "The Secret
Team: The CIA and its Allies in Control of the
United States and the World" by retired Air Force
Colonel and intelligence community critic L.
Fletcher Prouty. While in the military, Prouty
was assigned to provide Air Force support for
clandestine activities of the CIA. During the
last nine years of military service, Prouty was
the Pentagon Focal Point Officer through which
CIA requests for military assistance were
channeled, first for the Air Force, and
eventually for the entire Department of Defense.
In his book, Prouty criticized the CIA's penchant
for counterinsurgency and clandestine operations,
which he argued prolonged the war in Vietnam and
resulted in the unnecessary deaths of many U.S.
soldiers. Given his experience and knowledge of
CIA activity, Prouty has become an influential
critic of the agency, and has gained an audience
across the political spectrum. [f-13]
The Liberty Lobby's "Spotlight" newspaper took
Prouty's original thesis and overlaid it with a
conspiracy theory regarding Jewish influence in
U.S. foreign policy. The "Secret Team" apparently
became the "Secret Jewish Team" in their eyes.
Sometime in the 1980's, a number of right-wing
critics of U.S. intelligence operations,
including Prouty, began to drift towards the
"Spotlight" analysis. They began to feed
information from their sources inside the
government to publications and groups that
circulate conspiracy theories alleging Jewish
influence and control over world events.
Prouty's "The Secret Team" was recently
republished by the Institute for Historical
Review (IHR). IHR promotes the theory that the
accepted history of the Holocaust is essentially
a hoax perpetrated by Jews to benefit the state
of Israel. Noontide Press, in essence the book
and pamphlet distribution arm of the Institute
for Historical Review, is the largest distributor
of pro-Nazi, anti-Jewish, white supremacist
literature in the United States. Noontide Press
also distributes such titles as "Auschwitz: Truth
or Lie--An Eyewitness Report," "Hitler At My
Side," and "For Fear of the Jews."
==========================================
Prouty's topic at the opening session of the 1990
Liberty Lobby Convention was "The Secret Team."
The new Institute for Historical Review's
Noontide Press edition of Prouty's book "The
Secret Team" was released at the Liberty Lobby
conference. Prouty assured the audience it was an
"enormous privilege" to have his book republished
by the Institute for Historical Review, a group,
Prouty claimed, that keeps people "from revising
history." Prouty thanked Willis Carto and Tom
Marcellus of IHR for the "guts and good sense" to
republish his book. [f-24] Following Prouty to
the Podium was Eustace Mullins, who spoke on
"Secrets of the Federal Reserve."
Prouty has been a guest at least nine times on
Paul Valentine's Radio Free America
program--syndicated by Liberty Lobby. An ad in
"Spotlight" for a tape of Prouty's January 23,
1991 interview reads: "Was Bush's War [against
Iraq] actually a "Secret Team" operation? Col.
Fletcher Prouty, expert on this government within
a government, argues that it has all the
earmarks."
Prouty also moderated a panel where Bo Gritz wove
a conspiracy theory which explained the U.S.
confrontation with Iraq as a product of the same
"Secret Team" outlined by Prouty. Spotlight's
coverage of the Gritz presentation featured a
headline proclaiming "Gritz Warns...Get Ready to
Fight or Lose Freedom: Links Drugs, CIA, Mossad;
Slams U.S. Foreign Policy; Alerts Patriots to
Martial Law Threat."
Other conference speakers and moderators at the
September 1990 Liberty Lobby convention included
attorney Mark Lane, who has drifted into
alliances with Liberty Lobby that far transcend
his role as the group's lawyer, and comedian and
activist Dick Gregory, whose anti-government
rhetoric finds fertile soil on the far right.
Dick Gregory also spoke in 1991 at the January
19th antiwar rally in Washington, D.C. Organizers
of the antiwar event say they were unaware of
Gregory's previous appearance at the Liberty
Lobby meeting.
Mark Lane and Dick Gregory co-authored a 1977
book on the assassination of Rev. Martin Luther
King, Jr., and both have circulated complex
conspiracy theories about other world events
which could account in part for their drift
towards the conspiratorial Liberty Lobby network.
============================================
The JFK Conspiracy
The Oliver Stone film "JFK" stimulated nationwide
interest in conspiracies. Some right-wing
paranoid theories are woven into the film, not
surprising since Fletcher Prouty was an advisor
to Stone, and the film's character "Mr. X" was
primarily based on Prouty. Several of the film's
themes echo conspiracist claims appearing in a
John Birch Society magazine article on the JFK
assassination by Medford Evans. The article was
first published in September 1967 and was
reprinted in April 1992 in the Birch magazine
"The New American" to catch the wave of publicity
around the Stone film. In the article, Evans
discusses rumors that Lyndon Johnson may have
engineered the Kennedy assassination, considers
the assassination a "coup d'etat" . and suggest
the American Establishment had JFK killed. The
publisher complains, however, that "if Oliver
Stone is seriously trying to indict the CIA,
defense contractors, Big Oil, Big Business, the
news media, and a host of others, he errs in
suggesting that the whole business was a
right-wing plot. These are not individuals of the
Right."
As the film "JFK" was making headlines, Prouty
was promoting the new IHR edition of his book on
the CIA, "The Secret Team" and Lane was promoting
his new book on the Kennedy Assassination,
"Plausible Denial," in tandem with the film.
Prouty wrote the introduction to Lane's book.
Stone highlighted the research of Prouty in a
December, 1991 "Op-Ed" article in the "New York
Times" . Prouty was widely discussed as a model
for the "Mr. X" character featured in the Stone
film, and Prouty served as an advisor to the
film. Both Prouty and Lane have been featured on
nominally progressive radio stations discussing
the JFK assassination. There has been a
reluctance to discuss some of these issues among
some progressives, for instance a new film by
respected documentarians Daniel Schechter and
Barbara Kopple, "Beyond 'JFK': The Question of
Conspiracy," features Lane and Prouty but makes
no mention of the controversy surrounding
their affiliations.
===============================================
"Spotlight" used the opportunity of the release
of Oliver Stone's film "JFK" to promote Fletcher
Prouty, Mark Lane, and Victor Marchetti. Prouty
was an advisor on the film and was the model for
the film's character "Mr. X." Prouty and Lane
went on book promotion tours in tandem with the
film. "Spotlight" wove its coverage of the film
"JFK" around its theories about Jewish "dual
loyalist" control of the U.S. government and the
claim that the Israeli intelligence agency,
Mossad, controls CIA covert operations.
While concern over Reagan Administration
participation in joint intelligence operations
with Mossad is legitimate, the use of
anti-Zionism as a cover for conspiracist
anti-Jewish bigotry can be seen in an article in
the August 24, 1981 issue of "Spotlight" :
"A brazen attempt by influential
"Israel-firsters" in the policy echelons of the
Reagan administration to extend their control to
the day-to-day espionage and covert-action
operations of the CIA was the hidden source of
the controversy and scandals that shook the U.S.
intelligence establishment this summer."
"The dual loyalists, whose domination over the
federal executive's high planning and
strategy-making resources is now just about
total, have long wanted to grab a hand in the
on-the-spot "field control" of the CIA's
worldwide clandestine services. They want this
control, not just for themselves, but on behalf
of the Mossad, Israel's terrorist secret police."
"Spotlight" not only rails against
"dual-loyalist" Jews in government, but also has
praised the Nazi skinhead movement and reported
favorably on the "spirit" of the Nazi Waffen SS
during World War II.
Prouty is quoted in the October 8, 1990 edition
of "Spotlight" as saying the enemy of the
American people is the CIA along with "usury, the
political parties, the media and our textbooks."
The issue of usury (high interest rates) is often
coupled with a bigoted critique of Jewish
financial influence and power, and whether or not
that was the way Prouty meant it to be taken, in
the context of a Liberty Lobby conference, the
anti-Jewish inference would be drawn by many in
the audience.
Prouty also was quoted in the "Spotlight" as
saying that "If anybody really wants to know
what's going on in the world today he should be
reading "The Spotlight." Prouty refused to
confirm or deny the accuracy of the quote in an
interview with the author. [f-17]
======================================================
In 1974, Marchetti, a former executive assistant
to the deputy director of the CIA, co-authored
"The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence," a
well-received best-seller and the first book the
CIA tried to suppress through court action. By
1989, however, Marchetti had been recruited into
a close alliance with Carto's Liberty Lobby
network. In 1989, Marchetti presented a paper at
the Ninth International Revisionist Conference
held by the Institute for Historical Review. The
title of Marchetti's paper, published in IHR's
"Journal of Historical Review," was "Propaganda
and Disinformation: How the CIA Manufactures
History." Marchetti edits the "New American View"
newsletter, which as one promotional flyer
explained, was designed to "document for
patriotic Americans like yourself the excess of
pro-Israelism, which warps the news we see and
hear from our media, cows our Congress into
submission, and has already cost us hundreds of
innocent, young Americans in Lebanon and elsewhere."
Marchetti describes himself as a person whose
"intelligence expertise and well-placed contacts
have provided me with a unique insight into the
subversion of our democratic process and foreign
policy by those who would put the interests of
Israel "above" those of America and Americans."
Marchetti is also the publisher of a
Japanese-language book "ADL and Zionism,"
written by LaRouche followers Paul Goldstein and
Jeffrey Steinberg.
Marchetti was co-publisher of the "Zionist Watch"
newsletter when it was endorsed in direct mail
appeals on Liberty Lobby stationery by the now
deceased Lois Petersen, who for many years was
the influential secretary of the Liberty Lobby
board of directors. The October 5, 1987
"Spotlight" reported that Mark Lane had been
named associate editor of "Zionist Watch," which
at the time was housed in the same small
converted Capitol Hill townhouse as Liberty
Lobby/" Spotlight." "Zionist Watch" featured a
conspiracist critique which saw Israel
controlling U.S. foreign policy.
Mark Lane is the legal representative of Liberty
Lobby and other Carto enterprises, which in
itself is not indicative of any political
affiliation. But Lane is also an active apologist
for the Institute for Historical Review and
Willis Carto. Writing in his book "Plausible
Denial," Lane contends that "I have never
heard an anti-Semitic expression" from Carto.
[f-14] Lane uses his Jewish background and past
leftist credentials to divert attention from
Carto's role as the leading purveyor of racist,
anti-Jewish and pro-Nazi literature in the U.S.
Lane describes in "Plausible Denial" how he was
recruited into the Carto network through the late
Haviv Schieber, who Lane describes in glowing
terms as a Jewish activist fighting for peace in
the Middle East.
Schieber is more accurately described as an early
supporter of the ultra-right Jabotinsky Zionist
movement. Schieber broke with Zionism and the
state of Israel when he came to believe it had
been seized by the socialist and communist forces
he despised. Schieber's diatribes claiming
Zionist control of Congress were regularly
reported in Carto's "Spotlight" newspaper, which
referred to Schieber as "an outspoken
anti-communist and critic of Israel." [f-15]
Schieber's views were also promoted by Andrew I.
Killgore, publisher of "Washington Report on
Middle East Affairs." Lane, Schieber, Jewish
anti-Zionist Dr. Alfred Lilienthal, Killgore, and
right-wing Christian radio broadcaster Dale
Crowley, Jr., became the leading exponents of a
right-wing anti-Zionist critique in Washington,
D.C. in the mid-1980's. It was Schieber who, over
breakfast in 1980, convinced Lane to contact
Carto, as modestly described by Lane in
"Plausible Denial" :
"I discovered before breakfast was concluded,
however, that E. Howard Hunt, the convicted
Watergate burglar and official of the Central
Intelligence Agency, had filed a lawsuit against
Victor Marchetti, a former high-ranking officer
with the CIA and against Liberty Lobby, Inc.,
publisher of "Spotlight," for an article
Marchetti had written and "Spotlight" had
published about the assassination of President
Kennedy....Haviv had a new...mission. I would
represent the defendants, Marchetti and the
newspaper; we would win, thus establishing the
truth about the death of President Kennedy; and a
national newspaper that published a dissenting
view of Middle Eastern affairs would survive."
[f-16]
=================================================
The Liberty Lobby Populist Action Committee
In 1991 Liberty Lobby announced the creation of
the advisory board of the Populist Action
Committee. The "Spotlight" ran a major feature on
the formation of the advisory board with
photographs of the persons announced as appointed
to launch the Committee:
Bo Gritz, briefly ran as David Duke's running mate,
later ran for president with support from
the Populist Party.
Fletcher Prouty, right-wing CIA critic, author of
"The Secret Team."
Abe Austin, described as an Illinois
businessman and expert on money;
Mike Blair, "Spotlight" writer whose articles
on government repression were highlighted by
Project Censored;
Ken Bohnsack, an Illinois resident called the
founder of the Sovereignty movement;
Howard Carson, a "Spotlight" distributor;
William Gill, president of the protectionist
American Coalition for Competitive Trade;
Boyd Godlove Jr., chairman of the Populist
Party of Maryland;
Martin Larson, a contributor to "The Journal
of Historical Review" which maintains the
Holocaust was a Jewish hoax;
Roger Lourie, president of Devin-Adair
Publishing;
Pauline Mackey, national treasurer for the
1988 David Duke Populist Party Presidential
campaign;
Tom McIntyre, national chairman of the
Populist Party from 1987-1990;
John Nugent, who ran for Congress from
Tennessee as a Republican in 1990;
Lawrence Patterson, publisher of the far-right
ultra-conspiratorial "Criminal Politics"
newsletter;
Jerry Pope, chair of the Kentucky Populist
Party;
John Rakus, president of the National Justice
Foundation;
Hon. John R. Rarick, former Democratic House
member now in Louisiana;
Sherman Skolnick, a Chicagoan who has peddled
bizarre conspiracy theories for over a decade;
Major James H. Townsend, editor of the
"National Educator" from California;
Jim Tucker, "Spotlight" contributor who
specializes on covering the Bilderberger banking
group;
Tom Valentine, Midwest bureau chief for
"Spotlight" and host of Liberty Lobby's Radio
Free America;
Raymond Walk, an Illinois critic of free
trade;
Robert H. Weems, founding national chairman of
the Populist Party.
Prouty has been appearing at conferences and on
radio programs sponsored by the Liberty
Lobby, but claims "there was never a handshake"
concerning his official appointment to the
Populist Action Committee. [f-18] Prouty
nonetheless admits that he is aware his name is
being publicized in that capacity and refuses to
ask his name be dropped from the list.
Skolnick also says he was never "officially"
asked to be on the advisory board, but although
he is aware he was named to the panel, he refuses
to distance himself from the board or Liberty
Lobby. [f-19]
======================================
Critics of the Christic thesis say the "Secret
Team" was not a cabal operating against the will
of the president or the CIA, but was an illegal,
secret government-sponsored operation established
by CIA director William Casey and coordinated by
White House aide Oliver North, with assistance
from a network of ultra-right groups who were
determined to circumvent the will of Congress.
This "Enterprise" at times worked closely with
the Mossad and carried out clandestine
counterinsurgency missions. Some of these
counterinsurgency missions were based on the same
model of pacification used by U.S. Special Forces
and clandestine CIA operations in Vietnam. It is
just this emphasis on counterinsurgency and
clandestine operations rather than direct
military battles that forms the basis of
criticism in Fletcher Prouty's book "Secret
Team." Prouty criticized the CIA for promoting
covert action techniques which he traced to the
influence of the British intelligence service MI5
on the Office of Strategic Services (OSS),
precursor to the CIA. Prouty said such meddling
and convoluted efforts at fighting communism
resulted in the needless deaths of American
servicemen. There is no evidence of any obvious
anti-Jewish conspiracy theories in the original
Prouty book.
======================================================
Lyndon LaRouche has picked up support for his
campaign to get released from prison from a
number of right-wing extremists, including
retired Air Force Colonel and intelligence
specialist Fletcher Prouty, a leading light among
ultra-right researchers, who also works with the
quasi-Nazi Liberty Lobby. Prouty has issued a
statement declaring that "instrumentalities of
the government have hounded" LaRouche and
"created wrongs where none existed before."
===========================================
[Re: Prouty's cites to "Report From Iron Mountain"
In at least one case, Craig Hulet moves beyond
conspiracism into elevating a satire to
documentary status. Hulet labels as fact material
from the book "Report from Iron Mountain." Hulet
refers to the work as if it were a secret
government document. Actually, "Report from Iron
Mountain" is an allegorical critique of the
pro-militarist lobby and a well-known example of
political satire. [f-26]
26. "Report from Iron Mountain" is to a large degree a veiled
attack on Herman Kahn and the school of geo-political
strategy that developed around him at the Hudson
Institute, an ultra-conservative think tank. Several of
the footnotes refer to Kahn and Hudson Institute
studies i.e. Kahn: Section 1, footnote 4 (p. 103),
Section 5, footnote 10 (p. 105), Section 8,
footnote 1, (p. 108); and Hudson Institute: Section 8,
footnote 3, (p. 109). Moreover, the overall philosophy
adopted in the book is consistent with Hudson
Institute study papers and Kahn's writings. (See Kahn's
"On Escalation" and "Thinking About the Unthinkable."
Also of interest is the book by two former Hudson Institute
analysts, Edmund Stillman and William Pfaff who later
rejected that school of thought and wrote "The
Politics of Hysteria."
While an excellent philosophical discussion of
the errors of the Cold War, it should be noted
that it was produced by Leonard C. Lewin,
described on the book jacket as a "critic and
satirist" who was editor of "A Treasury of
American Political Humor." Apparently Hulet
didn't get the joke. Even the Institute for
Historical Review, which sells "Report from Iron
Mountain," says in its current "Noontide Press"
catalog: "was it the actual text of a secret
report...or a brilliant satire? Judge for yourself."
JSemaski
trying for years but can't find it. Publisher says Prouty might
re-publish this summer but no firm plans. Any suggestions?
js.
Jim Hargrove
[....]
>Excerpted & adapted from:
>RIGHT WOOS LEFT:
>Populist Party, LaRouchian, and Other
>Neo-fascist Overtures To Progressives, And Why
>They Must Be Rejected
>November 22, 1993
>by Chip Berlet [cbe...@igc.apc. org]
In case anyone missed it, "John McLoughlin's" pseudonym du jour includes the
surname of Adolf Hitler's paternal grandmother--Maria Anna Schicklgruber. Der
Fuhrer's illegitimate father also went by the name Schicklgruber for the first
three or four decades of his life. Although Mr. McLoughlin can certainly be
forgiven for not knowing how to spell "Adolf," this choice of pseudonyms for
an alleged fighter of fascism is at best ironic here... and perhaps in poor
taste. It certainly isn't PC, which is partly what this post is about.
Chip Berlet's influential essay "Right Woos Left," reprinted at the top of
this thread by John "Adolph Hitler... I mean Schicklgruber" McLoughlin,
appears to be the source material for Joe Knapp's most recent attacks on
Fletcher Prouty, Mark Lane, Victor Marchetti, COPA, Gary Aguilar, Lisa Pease,
and anyone else who ever caught a glimpse of someone who caught a glimpse of
someone associated with the wicked and anti-Semitic hard-right Liberty Lobby.
I have no idea whether Berlet's charges against Liberty Lobby are true, partly
true, or mostly or entirely untrue. But since he and his organization,
Political Research Associates (PRA), have made a reputation by snooping into
the affairs of right-wingers, it only seems fair to take a look at Berlet
himself. An hour or two of Web surfing this morning produced a few modest
concerns.
EXHIBIT #1
DOES MR. BERLET HANG OUT WITH SPOOKS?
[Following is an excerpt from the NameBase data files, which I think is a
project of Daniel Brandt, who has much to say about the charges against Prouty
et al. later in this post. Mentioned prominently in the excerpt is ADL, the
Anti-Defamation Leauge, concerned primarily with anti-Semitism. Since any
complaints about an organization primarily involved in Jewish concerns are
also open to charges of anti-Semitism, I've included more than needed here to
let the reader decide. Berlet and intelligence activities are mentioned
briefly near the end of the excerpt.]
<QUOTE ON>
This article is from NameBase NewsLine, which is distributed to users of
NameBase, a microcomputer database with 170,000 citations and 78,000 names.
This 3-megabyte database is available on floppy disks and is used by over 700
journalists and researchers around the world. For a brochure write to: Public
Information Research, PO Box 680635, San Antonio TX 78268 Tel: 210-509-3160
Fax: 210-509-3161 From NameBase NewsLine, No. 2, July-August 1993: Cyberspace
Wars: Microprocessing vs. Big Brother by Daniel Brandt.
Some observers feel that the ADL's relationship with many local police, the
FBI, and intelligence agencies suggests that they are playing the role of a
cutout. Government agencies might be getting the information they want without
incurring any legal risk, simply by using the ADL. In exchange, the ADL
apparently enjoys privileged access to police and FBI files. This is what
happened in San Francisco, where a police intelligence officer (and former CIA
agent in El Salvador) named Tom Gerard has been indicted for passing
confidential police intelligence files to the local ADL office. Another
principal in this case is Roy Bullock, who was a secret employee of the ADL
for 40 years, a close associate of Gerard, and also an FBI informant. After
learning that Gerard was meeting with South African intelligence, the FBI
investigated. This encouraged the involvement of San Francisco prosecutors.
They served two ADL offices with search warrants, and Bullock's computer was
seized from his home. Interviews with Bullock revealed that he had tapped into
one group's phone message system, and his computer contained data on 9,876
individuals and 1,359 political groups, distributed about evenly on both the
left and right.[21] While it's evident that ADL spying is centrally
coordinated from New York by ADL spymaster Irwin Suall, at this writing it's
unclear whether San Francisco authorities will try to prosecute anyone from
this powerful organization. The ADL does not hail from any particular portion
of the left-right political spectrum. Such a classification is irrelevant once
a group becomes a private intelligence agency, as then they generally inbreed
with their adversaries and mutate into a peculiar political animal. John
Singlaub's Western Goals, and Political Research Associates (PRA) of
Cambridge, Massachusetts, both extremely tiny compared to the ADL, are two
additional examples of this phenomenon. All three groups identify with certain
constituencies as a flag of convenience: the ADL with the Jewish community,
Western Goals with the right, and PRA with the left. But by using the same
methods of collecting information -- garbage surveillance, infiltration of
target groups, and the use of guilt-by-association in their propaganda -- each
of these three groups has perverted itself with clandestinism and denunciation
for its own sake. This opinion of mine is based on statements from John Rees
(formerly of Western Goals and a person with extensive computer files on the
left), Chip Berlet of PRA (formerly a BBS operator, with extensive files on
the right), and testimony from Mira Boland of the ADL (extensive files on
everyone). All admit to attending one or more secret meetings in 1983-1984
with U.S. intelligence operatives such as Roy Godson, representatives from
intelligence-linked funding sources, and journalists such as Patricia Lynch
from NBC. Besides Berlet, other leftists attending included Dennis King and
Russ Bellant. The purpose of these meetings was to plan a campaign against
Lyndon LaRouche. The LaRouche organization was another private intelligence
agency, but they had too many curious foreign contacts and were getting too
close to certain individuals at the National Security Council. More
importantly, LaRouche opposed U.S. intervention in Nicaragua just as the NSC
was planning an expanded role there.[22]
<QUOTE OFF>
EXHIBIT #2
IF IT'S ANTI-SEMITIC, WHY NOT SAY SO?
[Berlet's own thumbnail review of Prouty's _The Secret Team_ does not mention
anti-Semitism. Is the whole campaign limited to guilt by association? --jh]
<QUOTE ON>
** READING LIST ON INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES & POLITICAL REPRESSION by Chip Berlet
& Linda Lotz Revised (1/14/91)
....
"The Secret Team: The CIA and its Allies in Control of the World" Fletcher
Prouty, 1974. Early critical research on the CIA, but is marred by a somewhat
over-reaching analysis.
....
Udated 6/1/94
Written by Chip Berlet
[edited for presentation ONLY by e...@interlog.com]
<QUOTE OFF>
EXHIBIT #3
WHAT'S IT ALL ABOUT, "ADOLPH?"
[Finally, here are some much longer excerpts from another article by Namebase
guru Daniel Brandt. The full article is much longer yet and gives a better
impression of Brandt's ability to mingle his personal experiences with broader
issues, but here we try to cut to the chase, outlining the dangers of ignoring
men like Prouty, Marchetti, and Lane because of their associations with
Liberty Lobby. --jh]
<QUOTE ON>
From "Lobster," December, 1992 (214 Westbourne Avenue, Hull HU5 3JB, UK).
Reprinted in "Flatland" in 1993 (PO Box 2420, Fort Bragg CA 95437). An
Incorrect Political Memoir by Daniel Brandt.
....
And if you want to keep up with anti-CIA and conspiracy journalism these days,
it's helpful to have a subscription to The Spotlight, published by the
right-wing Liberty Lobby. But first you had better be prepared to defend your
choice of reading material to politically-correct leftists who are checking up
on your associates. What's going on here?
....
One day I noticed from a puff paragraph in our campus yearbook that University
of Southern California trustee John McCone was a former CIA director. By 1969
I had done some research on him, which was published in a campus alternative
paper I edited. Here was a multi-millionaire entrepreneur who was
well-connected with corporate elites, and very conservative, with a
CIA-on-campus issue thrown in for good measure. My story came and went,
seniors graduated, and McCone stayed. By 1973 the CIA had overthrown Allende
in Chile. McCone, as a director of ITT and a friend of Richard Helms, was
involved. He still stayed at USC. All the correct ACLU liberals on the Social
Ethics faculty had nothing to say when I pressed them on the issue.
....
Within several years there were plenty of amazing CIA revelations on record,
confirming that our most paranoid fantasies in the 1960s were
underestimations. I began compiling a name index of CounterSpy and Covert
Action Information Bulletin using little pieces of paper. Someone had to track
the beast. When I saw my first microcomputer in action in 1980, I knew
instantly that I was doing it all wrong -- those clanking floppy disks were
like lightening compared to my fingers sorting little pieces of paper. By 1982
I moved to the Washington DC area (alone and without knowing anyone), bought
my own computer, wrote the software, and began inputting my library. I was a
refugee from California correctness, and I migrated to the information capital
of the world. Fortunately it was also a high-tech area, which made it easier
to keep up with electronics and find technical work when I had to. We
eventually incorporated as Public Information Research. Ten years of inputting
and five computers later, NameBase has 135,000 citations and 64,000 names.
Although we received our first grants recently (from the Funding Exchange and
the C.S. Fund), we basically meet our expenses with income from sales -- not
to mention the nine technician jobs I had while living in the DC area. In
other words, we are self-sufficient and answer to no one. NameBase exists from
the purest of populist, anti-establishment impulses, and it is used by
hundreds of journalists and researchers all over the world. David Wise, the
dean of all CIA-tracking journalists, had written about McCone in The
Invisible Government in 1964. Almost all of my research on McCone in 1969 had
to be lifted from this book because there was nothing else to be found. I've
finally come full circle. Wise is still churning out important books and says
for the record that NameBase is "absolutely indispensable." It's too easy to
forget that very little information about the secret state was available in
the 1960s -- we had to get by pretty much on instinct. But ironically,
NameBase it isn't used that much on the U.S. left. Even worse, I've spent far
too much energy over the past few months defending PIR against charges of
political incorrectness. They're not only moving the goalpost on us, they're
beating us over the head with it.
....
The first hint of a PC crack within Public Information Research came in
October, 1990, when Chip Berlet resigned from our Board of Advisors because he
objected to the fact that Fletcher Prouty was also on the Board. We did not
discuss the issue because I was putting in overtime on my technician job and
wasn't in the mood to call him back. I whipped out the white-out and removed
his name from the letterhead, and thanked him for his past support. In July
1991, Martha Wenger resigned from our Board of Advisors after reading
something about Prouty in a leftist publication, and her final advice to me
was to "think long and hard about working together with others who may be
opposed to CIA covert operations, but whose political commitments are
diametrically opposed to those of the progressive movement.
...
Meanwhile, Chip Berlet was starting to release early drafts of Right Woos
Left, which received wide coverage in the left press beginning in early 1992.
I still wasn't into writing long letters, so Martha Wenger got the same polite
white-out that Chip received the previous year. Then in January 1992, Holly
Sklar resigned from our Board, stating that "I find Chip Berlet's objection to
sharing a board with Fletcher Prouty compelling, even more so at a time of
increasing right wing efforts to build insidious alliances with often
unwitting leftists." In the same letter she enclosed a check for an update of
NameBase, so it was clear that our work was not the issue. In fact, our work
has never been an issue; everyone who uses NameBase swears by it, right or
left. It's just that we're not PC. Sklar is best known for editing a fat
volume on the Trilateral Commission in 1980. This book began as a classic of
left power-structure research, and is now a staple on the populist,
anti-elitist right. In fact, the only inquiries we get at PIR these days on
Trilateralism or Bilderberg are from right-wing researchers who are concerned
about corruption and conspiracies in high places. Sklar is aware of this, but
for her that means that the insidious right is trying to sneak up on the left,
and we should exercise extreme caution. To me it means that the right includes
reasonable people with reasonable concerns. There doesn't seem to be a middle
way, but at least I wrote Sklar a letter defending my position. Let's go get
Stone It all pretty much hit the fan when Oliver Stone's JFK was released in
December, 1991. Z Magazine had just run a Chip Berlet interview in which he
bashed Prouty, the Christic Institute, and dozens of others. Stone's sin was
to portray a "Man X" that was based on Prouty's experiences in the Pentagon
shortly before the JFK assassination. Stone had first approached Prouty for
script assistance in July 1990. Although Right Woos Left in its earlier
drafts, as well as the Z Magazine interview, were in type before anyone saw
the movie, Berlet was in position. He had the goods on Prouty, and Prouty's
prominence in the wake of JFK made the issue that much more topical. Everyone
knew about Prouty and "Man X" by then, because one-time assassination author
Robert Sam Anson had bashed Stone and Prouty in Esquire two months earlier.
What you have to realize about assassination researchers is that they barely
tolerate each other. It's just one of those things. And what you have to
realize about the Stone movie is that the long knives were out at least six
months before it hit the screen. It's enough to make you paranoid. Berlet
hand-delivered a letter to Stone dated January 16, 1992, in which he called on
him to "distance yourself publicly from attempts by racist, anti-Jewish and
pro-fascist groups to use your film JFK as a vehicle to promote bigoted
theories claiming Jewish control of U.S. foreign policy and the CIA.... You
appear to have been mislead by JFK film advisor Fletcher Prouty regarding the
extent of his cooperation with the Liberty Lobby and other neo-fascist
operations created by Willis Carto. Willis Carto is infamous around the world
as a leading Nazi-apologist. Fletcher Prouty and two other critics of the CIA,
Mark Lane and Victor Marchetti, have forged deep and longstanding ties to the
Liberty Lobby and other Carto groups." And so it goes. Berlet hardly gets out
two paragraphs without mentioning the words "anti-Semitic," "racist,"
"bigoted," and "neo-Nazi," and frequently they all appear together. I've read
Liberty Lobby's Spotlight every week for ten months now, and I find only
infrequent hints of what Berlet is talking about. Of course this must mean
that they're only being sneakier than usual. (I signed up for another two
years; some of it is good NameBase material that the left ignores. Spotlight
is consistently anti-elitist and anti-CIA, they hate George Bush, and they
staunchly opposed U.S. intervention in the Gulf.) Another Berlet target is the
Christic Institute, and anyone else who has ever been guilty of sharing
information with the Lyndon LaRouche organization. I've been privately
critical of Christic's conspiracy theories myself. I won't rehash this now,
because the federal government is going after Christic with a vengeance and is
turning it into a dead issue (and a dead organization).
....
In the late 1970s some LaRouchies were locked out of their office for
nonpayment of rent, and Berlet purchased several boxes of financial records
from a janitor by posing as a paper recycler. He wrote it up, and the Illinois
State Attorney General launched an investigation of LaRouchian financial
activities. I suppose this is brilliant investigative journalism (at least
Berlet is still proud of it), but please remind me to watch my dumpster when
he's in town. I don't object to associations with LaRouche people, but I do
feel that all associations should be open and acknowledged, because in some
cases it has a bearing on our judgment of certain information offered by
certain sources. In other words, Berlet's concern is PC purity, while my
concern is the quality and reliability of a particular piece of information.
Often I'm unable to make this judgment, in which case the fact of the
association itself is filed away for future reference and judgment is
suspended. Berlet, on the other hand, makes an immediate judgment on the basis
of the association itself, whether the information is useful or not.
.....
For Berlet, Fletcher Prouty's main sin is that Liberty Lobby's Noontide Press
reprinted The Secret Team, which was first published by Prentice-Hall in 1973.
The content of the book itself has never been an issue; everyone agrees that
it is valuable. Berlet's point is that Prouty should not have given his good
name to Liberty Lobby. And once he gave his name, everyone should avoid
Prouty. If Public Information Research fails to avoid Prouty, then you should
avoid PIR, and so on down the line. But this quickly becomes absurd, and while
Berlet probably realizes this he doesn't have time to explain himself. Never
mind that no one else offered to reprint Prouty's book, and forget all the
trouble I went to when I needed a copy in 1977. It makes no difference to
Berlet whether this book is important or useful, or that Prouty's latest book,
JFK: The CIA, Vietnam, and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy (New York:
Birch Lane Press, 1992), offers unique perspectives based on his own
experiences in the Pentagon.
...
The debate became more pitched during the first half of 1992. First Joel
Bleifuss of In These Times quoted an anonymous source -- I think it was Berlet
because the particulars matched him and he ignored my invitation to deny it --
who called Prouty a "Nazi crackpot." Then Bleifuss bashed Stone for
overreaching with the JFK conspiracy.... Then Berlet recruited the chief
pundit from The Nation, Alexander Cockburn, who started sniping at Stone and
Prouty and then proceeded to destroy his own credibility by blithely defending
the Magic Bullet theory. Here's someone who should stop writing long enough to
read a few books now and again, or perhaps it's no coincidence that The Nation
reads like the Wall Street Journal on issues that matter.
....
It's worth noting that this piece you're reading cannot get published in the
U.S. unless I defect to the right, or I'm lucky enough to stumble onto some
mainstream editor who happens to think it's cute, harmless, and topical. That,
in a nutshell, is what PC is all about.
....
Already it seems that a distinction is evolving between the conspiracists and
the structuralists. The former see specific historical events (e.g., the
assassination of JFK) as probable determinants of other events (the war in
Vietnam), while the latter view this as a naive challenge to the conventional
left wisdom about infrastructure and economics as major determinants. The
structuralists feel it's inconceivable that John Kennedy, who was initially a
predictable product of the System, changed his mind about the System once in
office. And more amazingly, that the System would deal with it the way they
did -- real people with real names (if only we knew who they were!) deciding
he was a threat to their private interests and successfully engineering a
coup. Besides Fletcher Prouty, who has long maintained this view, another
Stone advisor was Maj. John M. Newman, a professor and military intelligence
officer, whose competence was demonstrated in "JFK and Vietnam." As soon as it
was published this year, structuralists like Noam Chomsky and Alexander
Cockburn went scurrying back to the documents to try and refute him, as if
their careers depended on it. But as Newman pointed out in a folksy talk on
June 17, 1992, it's finally unimportant whether you are "left wing, right
wing, or from the middle of the bird."
....
We will survive without grants if we must. Some may continue to call Prouty a
"Nazi crackpot" without any justification whatsoever, but we have former
Nazi-hunter John Loftus on our Advisory Board also. If that helps confuse the
issue, so much the better. We also have other investigative journalists such
as Peter Dale Scott and Jim Hougan, who do excellent work and have no need of
PC distinctions. The late Bernard (Bud) Fensterwald of the Assassination
Archives and Research Center helped us a bit with our tax-exemption, and I
helped them with their computers. Bud was incorrect enough to let his law firm
represent Lyndon LaRouche, but so what? Anyone can walk in off the street and
go through AARC's impressive collection of material. Is this worth anything to
the left these days? Probably not, and it's their loss. Prouty can stay on our
Board of Advisors as long as he likes; we're proud to have him. I submit that
left-right distinctions have outlived their usefulness in America, and
particularly in the Washington information milieu. They should be replaced
with other distinctions -- perhaps between those who believe in more
information for more people and those who don't. Or as Dan Moldea suggested to
me, maybe a distinction between "players" and "non-players." In either case,
Prouty continues to make an important contribution, and so does Victor
Marchetti, Mark Lane, and yes, Spotlight and Liberty Lobby. So forget it,
Chip. I'll turn in my SDS membership card if you promise to go away, but the
only one qualified to accept it these days is former national SDS president
Carl Oglesby. Carl is too busy writing JFK assassination books to bother with
your concerns, and feels fine on our Board sitting next to Prouty. And if you
ask him, he'll probably tell you that at some point between the late sixties
and now, you are the one who changed, not us.
<END QUOTE>
When John McLoughlin and Joe Knapp make their usual attacks against Liberty
Lobby and right-wing intelligence criticism, the emphasis is usually on Col.
Prouty, and not, say, on Mark Lane, who worked as closely with LL as anyone.
Perhaps the cognitive dissonance of a renowned assassination writer and
activist of Jewish heritage joining a rabidly anti-Semitic organization is a
bit too unsettling for those not yet signed up for the program of guilt by
association.
--Jim Hargrove
Michael Kelly
>Michael Kelly <mi...@emi.net> wrote:
>>"Esquire magazine published an article, in which they just made up these
>>things, I've never written for Liberty Lobby. I've spoken as a
>>commercial speaker, they paid me to speak and then I left.
>
>Also joining the board of the LL Populist Action Committee. Oh yeah, and
>appearing on their radio show on shortwave dozens of times, and publishing
>his book through their Holocaust-denial outlet, Noontide Press.
What book is that Joe? I believe he's written more than one.
Title, publisher and ISBN # would be helpful instead of just
sputtering on.
>
>>I've never joined them. I don't subscribe to their newspaper,
>
>Weasel words. They give him free subscriptions. He reads them. He says,
>"If anyone wants to know what's going on in the world today, they'd
>read Spotlight."
Free or not, a subscription would be a subscription, so I fail to
see the sophistry you claim to be uncovering here.
>
>>I never go
>>to their own meetings, but they had a national convention at which asked
>>me to speak and they paid me very, very well. I took my money and went
>>home and that's it".
>
>Was it forty pieces of silver?
Must be inflation. I thought the going rate for your
basic Judas was 30. Hmmm, the government must
be upping the ante to swell the ranks of Lone Nuts. :->
>
>>"The funny thing was two months earlier I had spoken at the Holocaust
>>Conference for the second annual meeting of the Holocaust Group which I
>>understand the Liberty Lobby is completely opposed to, and again I get
>>paid, I go to the meeting, I go home, I don't join.
>
>Yeah, and the Freemen are completely opposed to the Michigan Militia.
>I'd like to find out exactly what this "Holocaust Group" represents.
That you'd "like to find out" sure implies that you don't know.
Why not find out what you're talking about before commenting?
Or is that against union rules for obfuscationists?
>
>>Well, they put all this in this Esquire magazine
>
>Thanks for the tip on the Esquire article.
>
>Question: why are you so skeptical of everything uttered by a "government"
>source, but lap up everything Prouty says without comment?
The above question is rhetorical and is worthy of Robert Harris.
You know, he who says that ad hominem attack is an admission
of defeat and then launches right into one!
I should think it's obvious that I put up here an article I saw that
is an answer by Prouty to attacks similar to what have been seen
here. I have no way to verify what he says or challenge it. Do
you have the subscription list to The Spotlight? The lists of
officers in these outfits you say he belongs to? If so, then please
produce them instead of jabbering on about them.
If not, then go stand in the corner with dunce cap along with
John Locke, "Paul Nolan," and the rest of that crew.
ciao
--
Mike
"I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the
lamp of experience. I know no way of judging of the future but by
the past."
-- Patrick Henry
jackwhite
truth from the fiction (cover-story history), all must read THE SECRET
TEAM by Col. Prouty, who is very courageous to tell us who is behind it
all. Anyone who smears Prouty shows true (lone nut) colors.
Jack White
jackwhite
proclaim the TRUTH! I wish all would practice this! Disinformationalists
are the ones to trash.
Jack White
Michael Ray Swanson
Contact the Institute for Historical Review. You can also get
some good pro-Nazi holocaust revisionism along with your Prouty
"Secret Team".
Michael Kelly
>Does anyone know where I can find a copy of "Secret Team"? I've been
>trying for years but can't find it. Publisher says Prouty might
>re-publish this summer but no firm plans. Any suggestions?
>js.
Just to read it, your best bet is checking with a big city public
library system. If you want to purchase for your own library,
there are used book search services out on the web. Also
there is a search service with librarian James Daugherty. He
posts here sometimes and frequently on the alt.politics.org.cia
and alt.conspiracy newsgroups. If you send him email he'll
send you info.
Unfortunately, used books searched out this way tend to be
expensive, so it should be used as a last resort for must-have
books, unless money is no object that is. :-)
It's an interesting read. Much of the info is in Prouty's JFK
book, so get that if you can't find Secret Team.
Enjoy. :)
ciao
--
Mike
"To commit the perfect crime you don't have to be intelligent,
just in charge of the investigation that follows."
Michael Kelly
>Does anyone know where I can find a copy of "Secret Team"? I've been
>trying for years but can't find it. Publisher says Prouty might
>re-publish this summer but no firm plans. Any suggestions?
>js.
Oh yeah, in case anyone doesn't have the URL for this Prouty
Web Page:
http://mindlink.bc.ca/craig_nelson/fletch3.html
Lisa Pease
: Does anyone know where I can find a copy of "Secret Team"? I've been
: trying for years but can't find it. Publisher says Prouty might
: re-publish this summer but no firm plans. Any suggestions?
: js.
I believe Tom Davis books carries that - you can get to their website
from the CTKA website, listed below.
--
Lisa Pease
====================================================================
One person, one vote.
Not one dollar, one vote.
End private government. Ban corporate donations.
Check out the Real History Archives http://www.webcom.com/lpease
Read Contemporary Real History at http://www.webcom.com/ctka
Michael Ray Swanson
> Since some members of this newsgroup have mentioned a certain L.
> Fletcher Prouty, I thought it might be worthwhile to post some
> information on this fellow, a former Air Force Colonel. The following
> is taken from Edward J. Epstein's THE ASSASSINATION CHRONICLES.
>
> Aside from advising Oliver Stone, Prouty is also extremely active
> with other conspiracy-hunters. He served, for example, as
> editorial adviser to publications of the futuristic Church of
> Scientology; as a consultant to the far right Lyndon LaRouche
> Organization, who also provided its convention with a presentation
> comparing the U.S. government's prosecution of Lyndon LaRouche (for
> mail fraud) "to the persecution of Socrates"; a board member of
> the Populist Action Committee, where he joined Robert Weems, a
> former leader of the Ku Klux Klan, and John Rarick, the organizer
> of the White Citizens Council; and as a featured speaker for the
> anti-civil rights organization called the Liberty Lobby, whose
> founder, Willis Carto, also set up the Institute for Historic
> Review, a disseminator of books and videotapes that allege that
> the Nazi death camps in Europe were fictions devised by Zionist
> propaganda to justify tax money being donated to Israel. (It also
> published Prouty's own book, THE SECRET TEAM: THE CIA AND ITS
> ALLIES IN CONTROL OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE WORLD.)
Geeze. Lyndon Larouche....KKK...does anyone know of any
connections Prouty has that aren't the far-right wing
extremists?
Lisa Pease
: On 11 Apr 1996 06:11:08 -0400, jsem...@aol.com (JSemaski) wrote:
: >Does anyone know where I can find a copy of "Secret Team"? I've been
: >trying for years but can't find it. Publisher says Prouty might
: >re-publish this summer but no firm plans. Any suggestions?
: >js.
: Just to read it, your best bet is checking with a big city public
: library system. If you want to purchase for your own library,
: there are used book search services out on the web. Also
: there is a search service with librarian James Daugherty. He
: posts here sometimes and frequently on the alt.politics.org.cia
: and alt.conspiracy newsgroups. If you send him email he'll
: send you info.
I believe they have a website at http://www.a-albionic.com/ as well. I've
found several hard to find books through Daugherty's service. Some take
longer than others - but for a good book, it's worth the wait. :)
Also - develop relationships at the used book stores in your area. Let
them know your interests and leave your phone number. They may call you
with some interesting stuff. :)
john_mcloughlin
> >source, but lap up everything Prouty says without comment?
>
> Are we to continue with this suppression by reframing the debate to exclude
> possible culpability of the alphabet agencies--not just in the coverup but in
> the original crime as well--because a handful of dimwits are marching around
> in the woods with loaded rifles or because prejudice exists? If Col. Prouty
> had anti-Semitic associations, I guess we have to know about them. If he ever
> published anti-Semitic remarks, we should know about them too. (Anyone have a
> citation?) Maybe they'll publish him at TIME.
>
See IHR info posted 2 days ago....
> I just want my country's history back, and incessant attacks on
> Prouty, COPA, Lisa, Dr. Aguilar, militias, UFO's, and the whole
> danger-from-the-right extravaganza don't seem to be getting the job done.
Sorry, but Prouty's IHR affiliations PREVENT him from ever examining the
background and history of Revilo P. Oliver of the IHR. You, however, are
not encumbered by that little inconvenience and presumably are open
minded enough to realize that Oliver was one of the best informed of the
entire right-wing lot and someone who was mentioned in The Manchurian
Candidate by Richard Condon in 1958-1959. This guy was evil incarnate.
Likewise, Lane's and Lisa's Liberty Lobby links PREVENT them from ever
looking at NSRP-Joe Milteer, COF-Col. Curtis B. Dahl, Constitution Party,
Pioneer Fund. Do you have any reason for not pursuing these groups?
Aguilar's previous affiliations with YAF and the John Birch Society have
apparently convinced him that there was nothing sinister there either. Others
are not equally convinced.
> I'll go out on a limb and predict these endless attacks don't have the
> slightest chance of getting the real job done.
Woops, the limb is cracking already. You should be looking for hate in all
the reich places. Both Bill Turner and Carl Oglesby have become recent
converts to the Wickliffe Draper - Anastase Vonsiatsky line of reasoning and
they feel that there is much merit to the argument that shows the complicity of
the reich wing in BOTH the perpetration and the cover-up and the scapegoating.
Revilo P. Oliver used to scapegoat only the CIA in 1964 without even naming ONE
name as a starting point. He was a civilian employee of Army Intelligence and
Draper and Vonsiatsky were both Army officers. Why hasn't the Army released
even one friggen document?
>
> --Jim Hargrove
>
John
>
>
>>>>
Michael Ray Swanson
> On 11 Apr 1996 06:11:08 -0400, jsem...@aol.com (JSemaski) wrote:
>
> >Does anyone know where I can find a copy of "Secret Team"? I've been
> >trying for years but can't find it. Publisher says Prouty might
> >re-publish this summer but no firm plans. Any suggestions?
> >js.
>
> Just to read it, your best bet is checking with a big city public
> library system. If you want to purchase for your own library,
> there are used book search services out on the web. Also
> there is a search service with librarian James Daugherty. He
> posts here sometimes and frequently on the alt.politics.org.cia
> and alt.conspiracy newsgroups. If you send him email he'll
> send you info.
You can order Prouty's The Secret Team from Liberty Lobby's
book seller - Liberty Library. You can also get The Myth of
the Holocaust from them at the same time.
Jim Hargrove
[....]
>Sorry, but Prouty's IHR affiliations PREVENT him from ever examining the
>background and history of Revilo P. Oliver of the IHR. You, however, are
>not encumbered by that little inconvenience and presumably are open
>minded enough to realize that Oliver was one of the best informed of the
>entire right-wing lot and someone who was mentioned in The Manchurian
>Candidate by Richard Condon in 1958-1959. This guy was evil incarnate.
This is a newsgroup about the Kennedy Assassination, not a collection of
horror stories about the occasional failings of academic tenure.
I'm a graduate of the University of Illinois, and I know damned well who Prof.
Revilo P. Oliver was. He was a professor of classical literature at U of I
for far too much of this century, and he was a racist ass. None too
spellbinding at the lectern, either, or so it is said. Rumor has it he
occasionally went comatose for months before his graduate English lit students
realized that his presentation of the classics were even more lifeless than
usual.
Is it your contention that he masterminded the Kennedy assassination from his
power base in the U of I Classics Department? And the coverup? And all that
fingerpointing at the poor, defenseless CIA? Is it your contention that he
had anything at all to do with the Kennedy assassination?
Of course not. Your goal appears to be to smear by association anyone who
goes after the CIA. The proof is in your targets--Prouty, Marchetti, Lane,
COPA, Aguilar, Pease--all people and organizations who have roundly criticized
the Agency.
Someone was posting about a book by David Irving purporting that WWII and the
Holocaust were all Goebbels' fault, and that Hitler knew nothing about the
evils being committed by his boys. This book is apparently being published by
St. Martin's Press. Because it appears that St. Martin's Press has made a
very poor publishing decision, should we suddenly burn all the other titles in
its catalog? Should all St. Martin's Press authors be ostracized?
Or perhaps only the ones who criticize the CIA?
>Likewise, Lane's and Lisa's Liberty Lobby links PREVENT them from ever
>looking at NSRP-Joe Milteer, COF-Col. Curtis B. Dahl, Constitution Party,
>Pioneer Fund. Do you have any reason for not pursuing these groups?
What's the name "Joe Milteer" doing here? He is of some actual interest in
the Kennedy assassination case.
>Aguilar's previous affiliations with YAF and the John Birch Society have
>apparently convinced him that there was nothing sinister there either. Others
>are not equally convinced.
Or is your real concern that Dr. Aguilar has had unkind thoughts about the
CIA? Are only CIA critics who are Communists above reproach?
>> I'll go out on a limb and predict these endless attacks don't have the
>> slightest chance of getting the real job done.
>Woops, the limb is cracking already. You should be looking for hate in all
>the reich places. Both Bill Turner and Carl Oglesby have become recent
>converts to the Wickliffe Draper - Anastase Vonsiatsky line of reasoning and
>they feel that there is much merit to the argument that shows the complicity of
>the reich wing in BOTH the perpetration and the cover-up and the scapegoating.
Man, you sure drop a lot of names from the Right Wing Hall of Shame ... name
after name after name ... and then ... nothing. The names just sit there as
lifeless as old Revilo P. Oliver's worm-eaten body.
Wickliffe Draper was an American industrialist or close who loved Hitler. Are
you suggesting *HE* had something to do with the Kennedy assassination? Or
did Prof. Oliver's grad students handle the whole thing? Where's the meat?
>Revilo P. Oliver used to scapegoat only the CIA in 1964 without even naming ONE
>name as a starting point. He was a civilian employee of Army Intelligence and
>Draper and Vonsiatsky were both Army officers. Why hasn't the Army released
>even one friggen document?
How 'bout dropping some names that have something to do with the Kennedy
assassination? I almost fell out of my chair seeing a reference to Joseph
Milteer.
--Jim Hargrove
David Stager
And those damn profiteers and exploiters too!
--
"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
bill_thomas
> jsem...@aol.com writes:
> > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of "Secret Team"? I've been
> > trying for years but can't find it. Publisher says Prouty might
> > re-publish this summer but no firm plans. Any suggestions?
> > js.
>
> some good pro-Nazi holocaust revisionism along with your Prouty
> "Secret Team".
Just because Prouty hangs out with neo-Nazis and gets paid by neo-Nazis
and has his book published by neo-Nazis and gets quoted by neo-Nazis
and talks with neo-Nazis and eats with neo-Nazis and sleeps with neo-Nazis
and reads neo-Nazi materials sent to him does not necessarily mean he
thinks and acts and believes the propaganda like a neo-Nazi does it?
He is probably just a penetrating agent. Yeah, that's the ticket. He is going
to prepare an expose of them all after he returns to his true colors. His next
book will be:
The REAL Secret Team:
"Oswald and The Liberty Lobby, the NSRP, the IHR and the American Nazi Party."
with a forward by Dr. Revilo P. "beatific vision" Oliver
by Noontide Press
Just kidding.
Remember his hero, Joe McCarthy, who once said:
"If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck and looks like a duck. It's a fuggin duck
all reich."
Other books and docs we will NEVER see:
Oswald and Army Intelluhgunce
Really Deep Reich Wing Politics
Power on the Reich
Danger from the Reich
I Guess You Were Reich All Along
Looking for Hate in All the Reich Places
Reich Here, Reich Now
Newt Gingreich and Paul Weyreich Speak ze Truth
Might is Reich
Third House on the Reich
Rise of the Fourth Reich
Plausible Reich Denial
The SecReich Team
That Can't Be Reich
The John Birch Reich Society
Feight the Reich
JM
>
>>>>
Michael Ray Swanson
Jack - I think you do a lot of good work, but have to disagree
with you here. Prouty really doesn't identify who killed
Kennedy. He just refers to a "Secret Team" or a "High Cabal".
By High Cabal he doesn't mean the CIA, but people we don't even
know about. The people who supposedly tell the CIA and the
Rockefellers(their front men) what to do. This isn't too
helpful because Prouty never identifies any individual in this
High Cabal so how are we supposed to accept its existence?
Also, I think everyone should be troubled by Prouty's closeness
to the Liberty Lobby and the Institute for Historical Review.
Some people say, oh its not very important they just publish
his books. But hey, he sits on their boards. Appears on their
radio show and propogandizes for them. He's hardly innocent,
and those are actions that don't fit my category of courageous.
Michael Ray Swanson
> John McLoughlin wrote:
> [....]
> >Sorry, but Prouty's IHR affiliations PREVENT him from ever examining the
> >background and history of Revilo P. Oliver of the IHR. You, however, are
> >not encumbered by that little inconvenience and presumably are open
> >minded enough to realize that Oliver was one of the best informed of the
> >entire right-wing lot and someone who was mentioned in The Manchurian
> >Candidate by Richard Condon in 1958-1959. This guy was evil incarnate.
>
> power base in the U of I Classics Department? And the coverup? And all that
> fingerpointing at the poor, defenseless CIA? Is it your contention that he
> had anything at all to do with the Kennedy assassination?
Masterminded no. But after the event he contributed in a
coverup by propogandizing that the CIA - AND ONLY the CIA - did
the assassination on behest of the international
controllers(read Jews). This he did in order to distract
attention from his far-right buddies....Read Dick Russell
book. If I remember right he has a couple of pages devoted to
Oliver and his cover-up schemes. The point of Oliver is that
he is the first one to create the CIA did everything scam. And
this had nothing to do with working the the U of I Classics
Dept., but with his connections in the far-right. From what
would become the Liberty Lobby to the John Birch Society etc.
He was an important figure.
> Someone was posting about a book by David Irving purporting that WWII and the
> Holocaust were all Goebbels' fault, and that Hitler knew nothing about the
> evils being committed by his boys. This book is apparently being published by
> St. Martin's Press. Because it appears that St. Martin's Press has made a
> very poor publishing decision, should we suddenly burn all the other titles in
> its catalog? Should all St. Martin's Press authors be ostracized?
>
> Or perhaps only the ones who criticize the CIA?
>
Yeah, that was me. No, but we should criticize people who sit
on the boards of Liberty Lobby organizations. This includes
Fletcher Prouty, Lane, and Marchetti. This has nothing to do
with criticizing the CIA, but with criticizing fascism. Prouty
sits on the board of their political lobby arm and sits on the
masthead of the Institute for Historical Review newsletter.
David Irving - is one of their golden boys. Marchetti also
writes for Liberty Lobby and he and Lane put together a
magazine for them called Zionist Watch. Lane says that Willis
Carto, founder of Liberty Lobby is not anti-semitic, but a true
believer in the Constitution. Yeah, right. Hey, I don't like
the CIA too much either. But I'm not going to jump in bed with
anyone who doesn't like them either.
Lisa Pease
: Left...right...center...who cares about afiliations as long as they
: proclaim the TRUTH! I wish all would practice this! Disinformationalists
: are the ones to trash.
: Jack White
Exactly, Jack!
I'll be willing to go back to politicking when we have some honest people
in office. Until then, there is no left and right - only truthful, and
dishonest. And far more of the latter than the former! :(
Michael Kelly
Path:
news.emi.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!paperboy.ids.net!usenet
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Paperboy dickhead yet again. <snore>
David Stager
> I'll be willing to go back to politicking when we have some honest people
> in office. Until then, there is no left and right - only truthful, and
> dishonest. And far more of the latter than the former! :(
When you post one single honest post -- I'll believe you. Until then we
know what side you're really on.
Jim Hargrove
>ji...@wwa.com writes:
RE: Revilo Oliver
>> Is it your contention that he masterminded the Kennedy assassination from his
>> power base in the U of I Classics Department? And the coverup? And all that
>> fingerpointing at the poor, defenseless CIA? Is it your contention that he
>> had anything at all to do with the Kennedy assassination?
>Masterminded no. But after the event he contributed in a
>coverup by propogandizing that the CIA - AND ONLY the CIA - did
>the assassination on behest of the international
>controllers(read Jews). This he did in order to distract
>attention from his far-right buddies....Read Dick Russell
>book. If I remember right he has a couple of pages devoted to
>Oliver and his cover-up schemes. The point of Oliver is that
>he is the first one to create the CIA did everything scam. And
>this had nothing to do with working the the U of I Classics
>Dept., but with his connections in the far-right. From what
>would become the Liberty Lobby to the John Birch Society etc.
>He was an important figure.
According to Russell: "In his 1964 trilogy on the assassination, Oliver
declared that the Warren Commission was planning a cover-up of a Communist
conspiracy by declaring Oswald a loner, suppressing the FBI's report, and
smoothing evidence connecting 'Jakob Rubenstein' with Oswald and Cuba. If
Oswald had not been found, Oliver contiunued, the American right would have
been blamed and destroyed in the first phase of the Communist 'coup.'"
[TMWKTM, p. 687]
As I read Russell's description of Revilo, the professor believed that the
assassination was a Communist plot and that the CIA--and just about everyone
else--was a part of the International Communist Conspiracy<tm>. You wrote:
"But after the event he contributed in a coverup by propogandizing that the
CIA - AND ONLY the CIA - did the assassination on behest of the international
controllers (read Jews)." Where does that come from? Revilo, according to
Russell, was talking about Communists.
>> Someone was posting about a book by David Irving purporting that WWII and the
>> Holocaust were all Goebbels' fault, and that Hitler knew nothing about the
>> evils being committed by his boys. This book is apparently being published by
>> St. Martin's Press. Because it appears that St. Martin's Press has made a
>> very poor publishing decision, should we suddenly burn all the other titles in
>> its catalog? Should all St. Martin's Press authors be ostracized?
>>
>> Or perhaps only the ones who criticize the CIA?
>>
>Yeah, that was me. No, but we should criticize people who sit
>on the boards of Liberty Lobby organizations. This includes
>Fletcher Prouty, Lane, and Marchetti. This has nothing to do
>with criticizing the CIA, but with criticizing fascism. Prouty
>sits on the board of their political lobby arm and sits on the
>masthead of the Institute for Historical Review newsletter.
>David Irving - is one of their golden boys. Marchetti also
>writes for Liberty Lobby and he and Lane put together a
>magazine for them called Zionist Watch. Lane says that Willis
>Carto, founder of Liberty Lobby is not anti-semitic, but a true
>believer in the Constitution. Yeah, right. Hey, I don't like
>the CIA too much either. But I'm not going to jump in bed with
>anyone who doesn't like them either.
Your description of Lane's remarks about Carto and LL is oversimplified. In
_Plausible Denial_, for example, the issue begins on page 118, where Lane
writes, "I offered that I had heard of _Spotlight_ and Liberty Lobby. 'Isn't
that an extremist, anti-Semitic group?' I asked." That an intelligent and
well-known Jewish attorney--associated with the assassination investigation
since the beginning--would decide to go ahead and associate himself with this
anti-Semitic group reminds me of one of those "What's wrong with this
picture?" cartoons.
I tried to read some _Spotlights_ a few years ago when the attacks on Prouty
and Lane's (????) anti-Semitism began, but no library near me subscribes to
it. Anyone who speaks out on this case seems to get smeared one way or
another. See Gerald Posner for the details. The charges bother me, but
they're not even logical in the case of Lane. And so I'm not going to "get in
bed" with these guys, but I'm not going to ignore them, either.
--Jim Hargrove
john_mcloughlin
> > John McLoughlin wrote:
> > [....]
> > >Sorry, but Prouty's IHR affiliations PREVENT him from ever examining the
> > >background and history of Revilo P. Oliver of the IHR. You, however, are
> > >not encumbered by that little inconvenience and presumably are open
> > >minded enough to realize that Oliver was one of the best informed of the
> > >entire right-wing lot and someone who was mentioned in The Manchurian
> > >Candidate by Richard Condon in 1958-1959. This guy was evil incarnate.
> >
> > power base in the U of I Classics Department? And the coverup? And all that
> > fingerpointing at the poor, defenseless CIA? Is it your contention that he
> > had anything at all to do with the Kennedy assassination?
This question was directed at me I think so I will respond here and leave Mike's
well intentioned intercepted response alone.
Oliver was certainly one of the Top Ten masterminds along with the likes of
James Angleton, Charles Willoughby, Bonner Fellers, Wickliffe Draper and Anastase
Vonsiatsky. The Reich Wing both perpetrated the murder and perpetuated the
cover-up. End of argument. They had already penetrated at least 10% of every
high level position within the Senate, the House, the CIA, Army Intelligence, the FBI,
Naval Intelligence and almost 75% of the seats at HUAC and SISS. From these
lofty perches they could, apparently, accomplish almost anything at their whim.
>
> Masterminded no. But after the event he contributed in a
> coverup by propogandizing that the CIA - AND ONLY the CIA - did
> the assassination on behest of the international
> controllers(read Jews). This he did in order to distract
> attention from his far-right buddies....Read Dick Russell
> book. If I remember right he has a couple of pages devoted to
> Oliver and his cover-up schemes. The point of Oliver is that
> he is the first one to create the CIA did everything scam. And
> this had nothing to do with working the the U of I Classics
> Dept., but with his connections in the far-right. From what
> would become the Liberty Lobby to the John Birch Society etc.
> He was an important figure.
>
> > Someone was posting about a book by David Irving purporting that WWII and the
> > Holocaust were all Goebbels' fault, and that Hitler knew nothing about the
> > evils being committed by his boys. This book is apparently being published by
> > St. Martin's Press. Because it appears that St. Martin's Press has made a
> > very poor publishing decision, should we suddenly burn all the other titles in
> > its catalog? Should all St. Martin's Press authors be ostracized?
> >
> > Or perhaps only the ones who criticize the CIA?
> >
> Yeah, that was me. No, but we should criticize people who sit
> on the boards of Liberty Lobby organizations. This includes
> Fletcher Prouty, Lane, and Marchetti. This has nothing to do
> with criticizing the CIA, but with criticizing fascism. Prouty
> sits on the board of their political lobby arm and sits on the
> masthead of the Institute for Historical Review newsletter.
> David Irving - is one of their golden boys. Marchetti also
> writes for Liberty Lobby and he and Lane put together a
> magazine for them called Zionist Watch. Lane says that Willis
> Carto, founder of Liberty Lobby is not anti-semitic, but a true
> believer in the Constitution. Yeah, right. Hey, I don't like
> the CIA too much either. But I'm not going to jump in bed with
> anyone who doesn't like them either.
>
Share the blame. Insist that both Army Intelligence and the Liberty Lobby
co-operate with the spirit of the ARRB requests to release the files.
>>>>
JM
Jim Hargrove
>When you post one single honest post -- I'll believe you. Until then we
>know what side you're really on.
Chuckle of the day: D.C. Stager talks about "honesty." This is the guy who
once said Chicago's North Suburban Library System counterfeited a "Who's Who"
book to lie about Clay Shaw's Permindex listing. Yawn!
--Jim Hargrove
Lisa Pease
: Yeah, that was me. No, but we should criticize people who sit
: on the boards of Liberty Lobby organizations. This includes
: Fletcher Prouty, Lane, and Marchetti. This has nothing to do
: with criticizing the CIA, but with criticizing fascism.
When one criticizes the CIA, one IS criticizing Fascism.
Why don't we see YOU criticizing such?
Michael Ray Swanson
> > mr...@Virginia.EDU (Michael Ray Swanson) writes:
> > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of "Secret Team"? I've been
> > > trying for years but can't find it. Publisher says Prouty might
> > > re-publish this summer but no firm plans. Any suggestions?
> > > js.
> >
> > Contact the Institute for Historical Review. You can also get
> > some good pro-Nazi holocaust revisionism along with your Prouty
> > "Secret Team".
>
> Just because Prouty hangs out with neo-Nazis and gets paid by neo-Nazis
> and has his book published by neo-Nazis and gets quoted by neo-Nazis
> and talks with neo-Nazis and eats with neo-Nazis and sleeps with neo-Nazis
> and reads neo-Nazi materials sent to him does not necessarily mean he
> thinks and acts and believes the propaganda like a neo-Nazi does it?
>
Well, according to Lisa Pease and Mike Kelly that's right.
David Stager
You're the liar Jim. I never said any such thing.
Lisa Pease
: > To understand EVERYTHING that has happened since WWII and sort out the
: > truth from the fiction (cover-story history), all must read THE SECRET
: > TEAM by Col. Prouty, who is very courageous to tell us who is behind it
: > all. Anyone who smears Prouty shows true (lone nut) colors.
: >
: > Jack White
: Jack - I think you do a lot of good work, but have to disagree
: with you here. Prouty really doesn't identify who killed
: Kennedy. He just refers to a "Secret Team" or a "High Cabal".
: By High Cabal he doesn't mean the CIA, but people we don't even
: know about. The people who supposedly tell the CIA and the
: Rockefellers(their front men) what to do. This isn't too
: helpful because Prouty never identifies any individual in this
: High Cabal so how are we supposed to accept its existence?
Jack - just ignore Mike. He thinks anyone who ever said two words to
someone from the Liberty Lobby is a racist. He's a Chip (John Foster)
Berlet-ite. Ignore the facts and look only at associations - that's what
Swanson asks us (ad nauseum) to do.
Jim Hargrove
John McLoughlin wrote:
[....]
>Oliver was certainly one of the Top Ten masterminds along with the likes of
>James Angleton, Charles Willoughby, Bonner Fellers, Wickliffe Draper and Anastase
>Vonsiatsky. The Reich Wing both perpetrated the murder and perpetuated the
>cover-up. End of argument. They had already penetrated at least 10% of every
>high level position within the Senate, the House, the CIA, Army Intelligence, the FBI,
>Naval Intelligence and almost 75% of the seats at HUAC and SISS. From these
>lofty perches they could, apparently, accomplish almost anything at their whim.
All right, John, the paragraph above, minus the bravado, makes some sense.
It sounds like stuff Mae Brussel used to write. Angleton and Willoughby are
also near the top of my list of suspects, and President Kennedy's actions near
the end of his life should have enraged right-wing anti-Communists.
What about Hoover and Dulles? What mechanism did your "Reich Wing" use to put
the Warren Commission to sleep? George Lardner, Jr., writing in the
_Washington Post_, and many others say that LBJ implored Earl Warren to finger
LHO as the "Lone Nut" because the new President feared a real investigation
would uncover a Communist plot and trigger WWIII. Was that just great luck
for your "Reich Wing?" Did they give no thought to the problem of what to do
with LBJ?
During a few months when I wasn't reading a.c.jfk, you made your entrance.
I've spent a little time at DejaNews reading your posts, and it sure didn't
take long for you to come up with a flurry of attacks against a long list of
hard-working assassination researchers, and that's not including all those
posts you made under false names. Your attacks are virtually
indistinguishable from those made by John McAdams and John Locke, who I've
always assumed were professional agents.
So, let's take a look at your thesis. As I understand it, you're selling a
75-page manuscript for under 20 bucks that purports to solve JFK's
assassination by descrambling a series of anagrams presented in the novel _The
Manchurian Candidate_ by Richard Condon, which was written in the late 1950s,
years before President Kennedy was killed. You justify the time problem by
saying that Condon uncovered an earlier attempt to assassinate then-Senator
Kennedy, also perpetrated by your "Reich Wing." Can you give us a citation or
three on the assassination attempt against Senator John Kennedy?
Many of the anagrams you have "decoded" only work with misspellings.
I've published roughly three dozen books, most, but not all, for children. If
I were going to play this anagram game, especially in print, I guarantee you I
would not allow ANY misspellings in my scrambled clues. Games--like
civilized life--have rules. What rationale do you offer for the misspellings
in your "decoded" anagrams?
>Share the blame. Insist that both Army Intelligence and the Liberty Lobby
>co-operate with the spirit of the ARRB requests to release the files.
Fine, but Liberty Lobby is not a tax-supported agency, and is not under the
aegis of the Freedom of Information Act. Still, after its actions regarding
New Orleans District Attorney Harry Connick and Garrison's grand jury files,
I'd be happy to turn over everything I have to the ARRB. No doubt that's
naive.
--Jim Hargrove
Michael Ray Swanson
> : on the boards of Liberty Lobby organizations. This includes
> : Fletcher Prouty, Lane, and Marchetti. This has nothing to do
> : with criticizing the CIA, but with criticizing fascism.
>
>
> When one criticizes the CIA, one IS criticizing Fascism.
>
> Why don't we see YOU criticizing such?
I'm not going to answer such rhetoric. I could just as easily
spurt out - when one criticizes the LIberty Lobby one
criticizes fascism. Why don't we see you criticizing such.
All you've done is spout baseless rhetoric again.
Truth is I have criticized the CIA. Its not a big deal with me
here though because I don't think the CIA was the central
player in the assassination.
Michael Ray Swanson
> : > To understand EVERYTHING that has happened since WWII and sort out the
> : > truth from the fiction (cover-story history), all must read THE SECRET
> : > TEAM by Col. Prouty, who is very courageous to tell us who is behind it
> : > all. Anyone who smears Prouty shows true (lone nut) colors.
> : >
> : > Jack White
>
> : Jack - I think you do a lot of good work, but have to disagree
> : with you here. Prouty really doesn't identify who killed
> : Kennedy. He just refers to a "Secret Team" or a "High Cabal".
> : By High Cabal he doesn't mean the CIA, but people we don't even
> : know about. The people who supposedly tell the CIA and the
> : Rockefellers(their front men) what to do. This isn't too
> : helpful because Prouty never identifies any individual in this
> : High Cabal so how are we supposed to accept its existence?
>
>
> Jack - just ignore Mike. He thinks anyone who ever said two words to
> someone from the Liberty Lobby is a racist. He's a Chip (John Foster)
> Berlet-ite. Ignore the facts and look only at associations - that's what
> Swanson asks us (ad nauseum) to do.
Lisa - I don't think you have to tell Jack White what to do.
He's smart enough that he doesn't need someone to think for
him. There's no need to be constantly divisive and so finger
pointing.
I was making the simple point that Prouty's High Cabal talk is
of little value because he asserts that it exists yet cannot or
will not identify any of its members. He claims that the CIA
and famous names we know such as the Rockefellers are nothing
but fronts for the secretive High Cabal. The closest I've
heard him in identifying it was in a taped interview in which
he said that they thought they were Chinese.
captain_john_birch
> JSemaski (jsem...@aol.com) wrote:
> : Does anyone know where I can find a copy of "Secret Team"? I've been
> : trying for years but can't find it. Publisher says Prouty might
> : re-publish this summer but no firm plans. Any suggestions?
> : js.
>
> from the CTKA website, listed below.
Is this Tom Davis the infamous Birchite member from the 1960's?
Methinks it is.
>
charles_pichel
> On Fri, 12 Apr 1996, Michael Kelly wrote:
>
> > >Does anyone know where I can find a copy of "Secret Team"? I've been
> > >trying for years but can't find it. Publisher says Prouty might
> > >re-publish this summer but no firm plans. Any suggestions?
>
Fun Fact to Know and Tell:
Herr Prouty was not the first to come up with the "Mr. X" and "Secret Team"
terminology. Gerald L. K. Smith used both of these terms in The Cross and
the Flag in the 1950's and he "copyrighted" them. If he were alive today he
could sue for plagiarism if he weren't laughing so fuggin hard..... Someone
sent me a pamphlet from a fiend of Colonel Charles Thurout Pichel head of
the Shickshinny Knights of Malta, and HE used the term "Mr. X" as if it were
the persona of an unknown boogyman who was out to get him. His phrase
was "the mysterious team" but that was apparently not as effective as Smith's
phrase "Secret Team" which connotes much more sinister operations. This
guy worked for the "College of Orgonomy" out of Pennsylvania and he makes
international tours with the Russian psychic who bends spoons with brain waves.
Gotta get this guy for the next COPA conference, he would be a big hit with that crew.
He is a former shrink who believe "liberalism" is a "treatable psychiatric condition"
that is the direct result of a suppressed sex life in early adolescence. Yowza.
>>>
count_claus_schenk_von_stauffenberg
> > To understand EVERYTHING that has happened since WWII and sort out the
> > truth from the fiction (cover-story history), all must read THE SECRET
> > TEAM by Col. Prouty, who is very courageous to tell us who is behind it
> > all. Anyone who smears Prouty shows true (lone nut) colors.
> >
> > Jack White
>
> Jack - I think you do a lot of good work, but have to disagree
> with you here. Prouty really doesn't identify who killed
> Kennedy. He just refers to a "Secret Team" or a "High Cabal".
> By High Cabal he doesn't mean the CIA, but people we don't even
> know about. The people who supposedly tell the CIA and the
> Rockefellers(their front men) what to do. This isn't too
> helpful because Prouty never identifies any individual in this
> High Cabal so how are we supposed to accept its existence?
He hasn't even read the fuggin book. He just parrots the propaganda
of the Reich without even thinking about it. Must be brainwashed or sumpin'
>
> Also, I think everyone should be troubled by Prouty's closeness
> to the Liberty Lobby and the Institute for Historical Review.
> Some people say, oh its not very important they just publish
> his books. But hey, he sits on their boards. Appears on their
> radio show and propogandizes for them. He's hardly innocent,
> and those are actions that don't fit my category of courageous.
Cowardly, opportunistic and scheming are the words that come to mind.....
>
Claus
>>>>
john_mcloughlin
>
> John McLoughlin wrote:
> [....]
> >Oliver was certainly one of the Top Ten masterminds along with the likes of
> >James Angleton, Charles Willoughby, Bonner Fellers, Wickliffe Draper and Anastase
> >Vonsiatsky. The Reich Wing both perpetrated the murder and perpetuated the
> >cover-up. End of argument. They had already penetrated at least 10% of every
> >high level position within the Senate, the House, the CIA, Army Intelligence, the FBI,
> >Naval Intelligence and almost 75% of the seats at HUAC and SISS. From these
> >lofty perches they could, apparently, accomplish almost anything at their whim.
>
> All right, John, the paragraph above, minus the bravado, makes some sense.
> It sounds like stuff Mae Brussel used to write. Angleton and Willoughby are
> also near the top of my list of suspects, and President Kennedy's actions near
> the end of his life should have enraged right-wing anti-Communists.
>
> What about Hoover and Dulles? What mechanism did your "Reich Wing" use to put
> the Warren Commission to sleep?
Actually the WC did a better job in a few months than anyone else has in 33 years.
At least, they considered the Ruby Reich thesis, the John Birch theory and actually
brought Revilo P. Oliver before Albert Jenner son of the Reich Wing Senator from Indiana.
George Lardner, Jr., writing in the
> _Washington Post_, and many others say that LBJ implored Earl Warren to finger
> LHO as the "Lone Nut" because the new President feared a real investigation
> would uncover a Communist plot and trigger WWIII.
This was Revilo P. Oliver's original plan as stated in American Opinion, the Birch mag.
> Was that just great luck
> for your "Reich Wing?" Did they give no thought to the problem of what to do
> with LBJ?
Even Jack Ruby called Johnson a total Nazi, but no one wanted to listen to Ruby about
this statement or his warnings about the Dallas John Birch Society and the coming
pogroms against Ruby's people because of Ruby's actions. Ruby claims that these
Birchers "used him to kill Oswald" and Dick Russell recently told me that Ruby was
probably a programmed assassin based on Russell's conversations with a Dallas area
professor who has studied the matter. Ruby would have been implicated as part of
the plot by Oswald had he not snuffed him.
Jack: Hero or schmuck, what do you want to be?
If Oswald lives you are a dumb schmuck who helped us kill JFK. If Oswald dies,
you can say you just wanted to help poor Jackie and you are a hero.
Here's the gun, Jack. Hero or schmuck? You make the call.
Allen Dulles is a whole lot more complex than the simplistic Reich Wing theories
promulgated for the average moron. They called both Dulles brothers Commies
and pinkoes and hated their guts as they did Earl Warren. Now they are being
called Nazis and Fascists AFTER they died. Give me a fuggin break. Gerald Smith and
Right Magazine were the primary promulgaters for this thesis. Dulles may have
suspected his protege Angleton but likely well AFTER the fact. Why would Dulles
finger his protege after JFK fired him? No logical reason and he had no real
proof. Angleton was fired for "opening mail" in the 1970's? Yeah, Reich.
Someone finally figured out that Honetel 12 or whatever was a total hoax to render
the CIA into self-destruction.
Hugh T. Ashmeade (Angleton's favorite name) is Huge Death Sham. He is like
the unibomber. Just has to leave his fingerprints on the crime so he can get credit.
>
> During a few months when I wasn't reading a.c.jfk, you made your entrance.
> I've spent a little time at DejaNews reading your posts, and it sure didn't
> take long for you to come up with a flurry of attacks against a long list of
> hard-working assassination researchers, and that's not including all those
> posts you made under false names.
Only those who are working hard to spread lies or to discredit me.
It is not nice to fool with Father Nature. Normally I refuse to wrestle with pigs
wallowing in their own shit, cause everyone gets dirty and only the pigs love it,
but I decided to make an exception in this case for the "false patriots" and the
"false researchers" who have a tunnel vision which is bought and paid for. If they
can not stand the heat here which they ignited, let em go back to the kitchen. Those
who support and defend the Reich Wing must be exposed, castigated and shunned.
There are 4 Web Sites run by Reich Wingers or those who had parents and relatives as
Reich Wingers.
> Your attacks are virtually
> indistinguishable from those made by John McAdams and John Locke, who I've
> always assumed were professional agents.
They deserve everything they got and more. My opponents are professional assholes.
And card-carrying crazies, too.
>
> So, let's take a look at your thesis. As I understand it, you're selling a
> 75-page manuscript for under 20 bucks that purports to solve JFK's
> assassination by descrambling a series of anagrams presented in the novel _The
> Manchurian Candidate_ by Richard Condon, which was written in the late 1950s,
> years before President Kennedy was killed. You justify the time problem by
> saying that Condon uncovered an earlier attempt to assassinate then-Senator
> Kennedy, also perpetrated by your "Reich Wing." Can you give us a citation or
> three on the assassination attempt against Senator John Kennedy?
Manuscript is now becoming a book, is up to 100 pages and is not for sale yet.
Even Condon said that some of his novels were about "five and a half minutes
ahead of their time" (see NY Times obit). What he probably meant was that Man
Cand in the Spring of 1958 was 5 1/2 years AHEAD of the Fall of 1993 plot. He wrote
about Dr. Revilo P. Oliver 66 months before the murder and then Oliver showsup
at the WC.
Dr. Jerry Rose published them in Third Decade. I do not have the originals. He
can confirm chapter and verse as well as the statements in Committee of the States
by Shari Seymour which also implicates Willoughby and Gale via research and via
private statements previously attained by her.
>
> Many of the anagrams you have "decoded" only work with misspellings.
> I've published roughly three dozen books, most, but not all, for children. If
> I were going to play this anagram game, especially in print, I guarantee you I
> would not allow ANY misspellings in my scrambled clues.
You live in a rather primitive and constrained environment. Some of us do not
choose to recognize boundaries or rules and have made great strides by using
the negative templates defined by others. In other words: Screw the Rules.
Games--like
> civilized life--have rules. What rationale do you offer for the misspellings
> in your "decoded" anagrams?
Both Carl Oglesby and Bill Turner agree wholeheartedly that the anagrams can
not possibly be coincidental and they both believe that however imperfect the
anagrams, there is little doubt at all that:
a) Richard Condon knew who was going to kill JFK in 1958
b) His anagrams which only point to the Reich are entirely valid and accurate
despite minor "spelling errors" as you call them. Can you make a perfect anagram
out of: "Revilo P. Oliver is an SS German ally" without substitution of 2 friggen letters?
I doubt it seriously. The dozen anagrams all point to the Reich, Fascism or the
Waffen SS. Co-inky-dink? No bakers or candlestick makers at all.
c) I am the first and only person to recreate Condon's solution independently
from the ManCand in 1993 and then use it only to CORROBORATE my own conclusions
in 1995 not the other way around.
Dick Russell and Joe Backes are reading the thesis now and I await their comments.
JFK: The Final Solution is the only internally consistent thesis ever proposed which
can be corroborated by eyewitnesses (Giesbrecht), reluctant informants (Russell's
and Condon's) and serious, honest, professional researchers: Dick Russell and Mae
Brussell and Bill Turner and Carl Oglesby. Even Peter Dale Scott was onto Willoughby,
del Valle, and Fellers and the HUAC Reich wingers in the early 1970s' but he digressed.
==========================================================================
The professional disinformationalists put the cart BEFORE the horse on porpoise.
First came The Final Solution then came the CORROBORATION using Dick Russell
and Dick Condon. DO NOT LET THEM CHANGE THE ORDER TO FOOL YOU.
I fingered Willoughby BEFORE Dick Russells' book or knowledge of Mae Brussell's
works was made available to me.
First came The Final Solution then I discovered that Condon beat me to it.
I give credit where credit is due. He knew in 1958. I finally figured it out in 1993 after
18 months of effort. It took another 18 months part time to put the finishing touches
on it via The Man Cand and Vonsiatsky/Draper. Can anyone else beat that record?
Been there. Done that.
The fact that Vonsiatsky plotted two hits on FDR and had his HQ in MANCHURIA for
20 years and routinely sent assassins into Russia to do his bidding against the Commies
also is quite internally corroborated by the "novel" The Man Cand. I read the
descriptions of Lou Amjac and his wife to the current owner of the Vonsiatsky estate
in Thompson, CT (formerly called "Killingly", by the way as in Killing me softly with
his gun) and he stated:
Yep, that Amjac character is Vonsiatsky all right, right down to the reddish skin. How did
Condon know? Who was this Giesbrecht guy again, he must have known or met
Vonsiatsky as well, right?
Quod Est Demonstratum.
"That is Marion Ream all right. She was short, stout and had a moustache and warts
and was an Army and Red Cross nurse in Europe just like he said she was.
Did Condon know these people personally, or what?"
How can you argue with Richard Condon, Richard Giesbrecht and Russell's informant?
They all are involved with The Manchurian Candidate and Vonsiatsky has a chapter
in his biography called "The Manchurian Mafia" where he lived for decades. This
is the REAL Mafia connection not that anti-Italo American horse shit from the Reich.
Manchuoko was a Japanese territory during Vonsiatsky's reign and Richard Nagell
constantly refers to the Japanese and the Korean CIA connections. The China
Lobby contributed to the JFK snuff via APACL because of Viet Nam and the Straits of
Taiwan (Quemoy and Matsu) and the 38th parallel in Korea. It was a Freedom Fighter
Nationalism thing that included the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain, Hungarian Charlie
(Nagy) plus the Straits of Florida near Cuba. Notice that the Berlin Wall and the Iron
Curtain were the first to fall which was Vonsiatsky's goal since 1960 or so. Fascism
in the Ukraine was another Vonsiatsky goal. Zhirinovsky is his alter ego.
>
> >Share the blame. Insist that both Army Intelligence and the Liberty Lobby
> >co-operate with the spirit of the ARRB requests to release the files.
>
> Fine, but Liberty Lobby is not a tax-supported agency, and is not under the
> aegis of the Freedom of Information Act. Still, after its actions regarding
> New Orleans District Attorney Harry Connick and Garrison's grand jury files,
> I'd be happy to turn over everything I have to the ARRB. No doubt that's
> naive.
Joe Backes seems to think there is some authority to go after private files and
private collections as in the case of the former employee of the NO DA. You would
have to talk to him about that.
>
> --Jim Hargrove
>
Q.E.D. JM
>
>>>>
Dallas
>
>Michael Ray Swanson (mr...@Virginia.EDU) wrote:
>: jackwhite writes:
>: > To understand EVERYTHING that has happened since WWII and sort out
the
>: > truth from the fiction (cover-story history), all must read THE
SECRET
>: > TEAM by Col. Prouty, who is very courageous to tell us who is
behind it
>: > all. Anyone who smears Prouty shows true (lone nut) colors.
>: >
>: > Jack White
>
>: Jack - I think you do a lot of good work, but have to disagree
>: with you here. Prouty really doesn't identify who killed
>: Kennedy. He just refers to a "Secret Team" or a "High Cabal".
>: By High Cabal he doesn't mean the CIA, but people we don't even
>: know about. The people who supposedly tell the CIA and the
>: Rockefellers(their front men) what to do. This isn't too
>: helpful because Prouty never identifies any individual in this
>: High Cabal so how are we supposed to accept its existence?
>
>
>Jack - just ignore Mike. He thinks anyone who ever said two words to
>someone from the Liberty Lobby is a racist. He's a Chip (John Foster)
>Berlet-ite. Ignore the facts and look only at associations - that's
what
>Swanson asks us (ad nauseum) to do.
>
>
>--
> Lisa Pease
>====================================================================
What is this, a contradiction? YOU profess "guilt by association", the
swanson theory I belibve. You're not helping the cause Lisa, you are
giving us all a bad name.
Dallas
"Purity is a marriage license"
Lisa Pease
: What is this, a contradiction? YOU profess "guilt by association", the
: swanson theory I belibve. You're not helping the cause Lisa, you are
: giving us all a bad name.
"US"?
Who is "US"?
: Dallas
: "Purity is a marriage license"
Dallas
>
>Michael Ray Swanson (mr...@Virginia.EDU) wrote:
>: Yeah, that was me. No, but we should criticize people who sit
>: on the boards of Liberty Lobby organizations. This includes
>: Fletcher Prouty, Lane, and Marchetti. This has nothing to do
>: with criticizing the CIA, but with criticizing fascism.
>
>
>When one criticizes the CIA, one IS criticizing Fascism.
>
>Why don't we see YOU criticizing such?
>
>
>--
> Lisa Pease
>====================================================================
SURE!
Dallas
>
>Dallas (dal...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: What is this, a contradiction? YOU profess "guilt by association",
the
>: swanson theory I belibve. You're not helping the cause Lisa, you
are
>: giving us all a bad name.
>
>
>"US"?
>
>Who is "US"?
>
>
>: Dallas
>: "Purity is a marriage license"
>--
> Lisa Pease
>====================================================================
US are the people, both the pro and con of the WC Report. Take a poll
and see how it comes out.
All in favor of Lisa's methods, say JIMBO!
All against, say whatever!
Dallas
"Ask The President of Challenge Inc to help finance your suit"
Lisa Pease
: > Michael Ray Swanson (mr...@Virginia.EDU) wrote:
: > : Yeah, that was me. No, but we should criticize people who sit
: > : on the boards of Liberty Lobby organizations. This includes
: > : Fletcher Prouty, Lane, and Marchetti. This has nothing to do
: > : with criticizing the CIA, but with criticizing fascism.
: >
: >
: > When one criticizes the CIA, one IS criticizing Fascism.
: >
: > Why don't we see YOU criticizing such?
: I'm not going to answer such rhetoric. I could just as easily
: spurt out - when one criticizes the LIberty Lobby one
: criticizes fascism. Why don't we see you criticizing such.
Because the Liberty Lobby is not the subject of this forum. No one has
ever implicated them in the assassination of the President.
The CIA is directly implicated.
Can you get back to the topic at hand?
Jim Hargrove
>> ji...@wwa.com (Jim Hargrove) writes:
>Actually the WC did a better job in a few months than anyone else has in 33 years.
>At least, they considered the Ruby Reich thesis, the John Birch theory and actually
>brought Revilo P. Oliver before Albert Jenner son of the Reich Wing Senator from Indiana.
The WC was the only outfit with any substantial resources to dedicate to the
case. If they interviewed Oliver, they apparently didn't feel it was
significant enough to mention him in the Report (at least I don't see his name
in the index). Of course, nothing was significant for the Report unless it
pointed to LHO--lone assassin.
Garrison's resources paled by comparison to the WC's, but his investigation
was nonetheless undermined by a small army of attack dogs with long-standing
U.S. Intelligence connections, many of them discussed in the CIA's own 1967
Inspector General's Report on Attempts to Assassinate Castro.
Of the vaguely contemporaneous investigations, one appeared to be quashed from
the inside and the other discredited and disrupted by CIA-sponsored
operatives. I don't see how a bunch of right-wing activists could have
accomplished either task, except through official National Security channels.
Those channels could have led straight into Johnson's ear and into the hidden
microphones in Garrison's offices.
>> George Lardner, Jr., writing in the
>> _Washington Post_, and many others say that LBJ implored Earl Warren to finger
>> LHO as the "Lone Nut" because the new President feared a real investigation
>> would uncover a Communist plot and trigger WWIII.
>This was Revilo P. Oliver's original plan as stated in American Opinion, the Birch mag.
Got a citation?
> Ruby would have been implicated as part of the plot by Oswald had he not snuffed him.
No argument from me, and your analysis of Ruby's Hobson's choice (deleted for
brevity) makes a great deal of sense, for once.
>Allen Dulles is a whole lot more complex than the simplistic Reich Wing theories
>promulgated for the average moron. They called both Dulles brothers Commies
>and pinkoes and hated their guts as they did Earl Warren. Now they are being
>called Nazis and Fascists AFTER they died. Give me a fuggin break. Gerald Smith and
>Right Magazine were the primary promulgaters for this thesis. Dulles may have
>suspected his protege Angleton but likely well AFTER the fact. Why would Dulles
>finger his protege after JFK fired him? No logical reason and he had no real
>proof. Angleton was fired for "opening mail" in the 1970's? Yeah, Reich.
>Someone finally figured out that Honetel 12 or whatever was a total hoax to render
>the CIA into self-destruction.
I wasn't so much wondering what theories right-wingers have or had about
Dulles, but how Dulles helped jump-start the Lone Nut juggernaut. Assuming
for a moment he had no guilt in the assassination itself, Johnson or Warren
would have had to confide in him and exclude at least some of the other
commisioners.
But the main problem I have with your thesis comes later.
>Hugh T. Ashmeade (Angleton's favorite name) is Huge Death Sham. He is like
>the unibomber. Just has to leave his fingerprints on the crime so he can get credit.
That sounds familiar. Didn't someone else suggest that?
>> ... it sure didn't
>> take long for you to come up with a flurry of attacks against a long list of
>> hard-working assassination researchers....
>Only those who are working hard to spread lies or to discredit me.
>It is not nice to fool with Father Nature. Normally I refuse to wrestle with pigs
>wallowing in their own shit, cause everyone gets dirty and only the pigs love it,
>but I decided to make an exception in this case for the "false patriots" and the
>"false researchers" who have a tunnel vision which is bought and paid for. If they
>can not stand the heat here which they ignited, let em go back to the kitchen.
Blaming your own bad behavior on others is bs. I've made a few ad hominem
attacks too, but you carry it to ridiculous heights. Lisa Pease may say that
you are a disinformationist, but she has not forged your name as a poster.
You have forged her name, and that is despicable.
> Those
>who support and defend the Reich Wing must be exposed, castigated and shunned.
If they are responsible for the assassination.
>There are 4 Web Sites run by Reich Wingers or those who had parents and relatives as
>Reich Wingers.
So what?
>> Your attacks are virtually
>> indistinguishable from those made by John McAdams and John Locke, who I've
>> always assumed were professional agents.
>They deserve everything they got and more. My opponents are professional assholes.
>And card-carrying crazies, too.
Whatever your opponents are, they at least post under their real names. Even
if they didn't, that is no reason for you to forge their names.
>Manuscript is now becoming a book, is up to 100 pages and is not for sale yet.
>Even Condon said that some of his novels were about "five and a half minutes
>ahead of their time" (see NY Times obit). What he probably meant was that Man
>Cand in the Spring of 1958 was 5 1/2 years AHEAD of the Fall of 1993 plot. He wrote
>about Dr. Revilo P. Oliver 66 months before the murder and then Oliver showsup
>at the WC.
The foreign policy shifts that Kennedy apparently made regarding Cuba,
Vietnam, and relations with the Soviet Union all seemed to come very late in
his life. Even then, the overtures to Castro were secret, the Vietnam
withdrawal was always couched in terms of victory, and other than a nuke
treaty or two, coexistence with the USSR was just vague generalities.
Who but a handful of people in the Administration and U.S. Intelligence could
have known about the Cuban initiative? The issue of the Vietnam withdrawal
wasn't settled until last year, when Robert McNamara clinched it by saying
during the PR tour pushing _In Retrospect_ that Kennedy would have withdrawn
regardless of conditions on the battlefield.
These are actions that surely could have angered your "Reich Wing," but how
could they possibly have had any influence on a 1958 assassination attempt?
The liberal Democratic Senator from Massachusetts was staunchly anti-Communist
and a long, long way from the Presidency. Your "Reich Wing" must have had
one helluva crystal ball.
>You live in a rather primitive and constrained environment. Some of us do not
>choose to recognize boundaries or rules and have made great strides by using
>the negative templates defined by others. In other words: Screw the Rules.
Nonsense. Decent rules and enlightened enforcement are liberating. Without
them, you couldn't drive a car, walk anywhere in relative safety, or .... aw
hell, without rules there would be no civilization.
> Games--like
>> civilized life--have rules. What rationale do you offer for the misspellings
>> in your "decoded" anagrams?
>Both Carl Oglesby and Bill Turner agree wholeheartedly that the anagrams can
>not possibly be coincidental and they both believe that however imperfect the
>anagrams, there is little doubt at all that:
>a) Richard Condon knew who was going to kill JFK in 1958
>b) His anagrams which only point to the Reich are entirely valid and accurate
>despite minor "spelling errors" as you call them. Can you make a perfect anagram
>out of: "Revilo P. Oliver is an SS German ally" without substitution of 2 friggen letters?
And what name comes out of that mouthful, substituting two friggen letters?
[Bunch of stuff deleted that I can't comprehend.]
>> Fine, but Liberty Lobby is not a tax-supported agency, and is not under the
>> aegis of the Freedom of Information Act. Still, after its actions regarding
>> New Orleans District Attorney Harry Connick and Garrison's grand jury files,
>> I'd be happy to turn over everything I have to the ARRB. No doubt that's
>> naive.
>Joe Backes seems to think there is some authority to go after private files and
>private collections as in the case of the former employee of the NO DA. You would
>have to talk to him about that.
The New Orlean's DA's office, though, is supported by state tax funds, and
many states also have Freedom of Information laws. It still sounds different
to me, but I only play an attorney online.
--Jim Hargrove
Lisa Pease
: heard him in identifying it was in a taped interview in which
: he said that they thought they were Chinese.
I dare you to clip that and post it on the net. Many of us have audio
players.
Michael Ray Swanson
> : > Michael Ray Swanson (mr...@Virginia.EDU) wrote:
> : > : Yeah, that was me. No, but we should criticize people who sit
> : > : on the boards of Liberty Lobby organizations. This includes
> : > : Fletcher Prouty, Lane, and Marchetti. This has nothing to do
> : > : with criticizing the CIA, but with criticizing fascism.
> : >
> : >
> : > When one criticizes the CIA, one IS criticizing Fascism.
> : >
> : > Why don't we see YOU criticizing such?
>
> : I'm not going to answer such rhetoric. I could just as easily
> : spurt out - when one criticizes the LIberty Lobby one
> : criticizes fascism. Why don't we see you criticizing such.
>
>
> Because the Liberty Lobby is not the subject of this forum. No one has
> ever implicated them in the assassination of the President.
Nonsense, I myself have directly implicated them in the
cover-up. Others here have implicated them. Have you not been
paying attention.
> Can you get back to the topic at hand?
Which topic is that, the assassination of JFK or Lisa's private
domain?
john_mcloughlin
> Michael Ray Swanson (mr...@Virginia.EDU) wrote:
> : lpe...@netcom.com writes:
> : > Michael Ray Swanson (mr...@Virginia.EDU) wrote:
> : > : Yeah, that was me. No, but we should criticize people who sit
> : > : on the boards of Liberty Lobby organizations. This includes
> : > : Fletcher Prouty, Lane, and Marchetti. This has nothing to do
> : > : with criticizing the CIA, but with criticizing fascism.
> : >
>
> Because the Liberty Lobby is not the subject of this forum.
Any org which has been implicated in BOTH the perpetration and the cover-up
is the subject of this forum, you twit.
> No one has ever implicated them in the assassination of the President.
That is a bald faced, prevaricative totally fabricated lie which is typical of
the bull we are forced to put up with here.
1) NO ONE has implicated Joe Milteer of the LibLob affiliate NSRP? Bulls**t!
2) NO ONE has implicated the Congress of Freedom's assassination meeting
attendees like Curtis B. Dall? Horses**t!
3) NO ONE has implicated Lt. Gen. George Stratemeyer of the LibLob Board of
Policy and the point man in the Dealey Plaza death march?
4) NO ONE has implicated Dr. Revilo P. Oliver of IHR and LibLob and Birch?
Cock-a-pooey!
5) NO ONE has implicated the Constitution Party and the Pioneer Fund? Right!
Check your facts girl, before you try to post your illogical, biased diatribes.
That crap does not fly here but sinks to the pits of your posting pile from Hell.
Signed,
NO ONE
Joe Knapp
>j...@cbgbcs.cb.att.com (Joe Knapp) wrote:
>>Also joining the board of the LL Populist Action Committee. Oh yeah, and
>>appearing on their radio show on shortwave dozens of times, and publishing
>>his book through their Holocaust-denial outlet, Noontide Press.
>
>What book is that Joe? I believe he's written more than one.
>Title, publisher and ISBN # would be helpful instead of just
>sputtering on.
Dry up yourself. Do you not know that _The Secret Team_ is published by
the Noontide Press? That is basic. I would think someone so hip to
intelligence intrigues would know this. Or is investigating non-CIA
connections outside your bailiwick?
Prouty publishes through a Holocaust denial publishing arm of the Liberty
Lobby, the Noontide Press, under the auspices of the Institute for
Historical Review.
>>>I've never joined them. I don't subscribe to their newspaper,
>>
>>Weasel words. They give him free subscriptions. He reads them. He says,
>>"If anyone wants to know what's going on in the world today, they'd
>>read Spotlight."
>
>Free or not, a subscription would be a subscription, so I fail to
>see the sophistry you claim to be uncovering here.
He admits that the Liberty Lobby sends him free issues of the Spotlight,
and that he reads them. Yet you quote him here, without comment, that he
doesn't "subscribe" to the Spotlight. That makes you a running-dog
lackey of the antisemitic-paramilitary complex.
>>>"The funny thing was two months earlier I had spoken at the Holocaust
>>>Conference for the second annual meeting of the Holocaust Group which I
>>>understand the Liberty Lobby is completely opposed to, and again I get
>>>paid, I go to the meeting, I go home, I don't join.
>>
>>Yeah, and the Freemen are completely opposed to the Michigan Militia.
>>I'd like to find out exactly what this "Holocaust Group" represents.
>
>That you'd "like to find out" sure implies that you don't know.
>Why not find out what you're talking about before commenting?
Care to place any bets on the nature of that group? Clearly the fact that
Esquire magazine whacked him for this association doesn't bode well for it.
>>>Well, they put all this in this Esquire magazine
>>
>>Thanks for the tip on the Esquire article.
>>
>>Question: why are you so skeptical of everything uttered by a "government"
>>source, but lap up everything Prouty says without comment?
>
>The above question is rhetorical and is worthy of Robert Harris.
Not at all. You often opine how official government or CIA statements
must be dissected to reveal what they are hiding, yet post Prouty's
dissembling verbatim. How come?
>You know, he who says that ad hominem attack is an admission
>of defeat and then launches right into one!
Why you mention Harris is beyond me. he'll have to answer for
himself. I for one think "ad hominem" is a very useful attack and
only sophomore logic students in ivory towers think otherwise. IMO.
Also, even in said logic classes, "ad hominem" means something quite
different than the usage that has become current in net.discussions.
An ad hominem argument in logic is to say something along the lines
of "since you are a poltroon, your comments about X are wrong." It does
not refer to generic comments like "you are a poltroon." My comment
above about your wholesale parroting of Prouty does not constitute an
ad hominem attack.
---
Joe Knapp
Michael Ray Swanson
> : heard him in identifying it was in a taped interview in which
> : he said that they thought they were Chinese.
>
>
> I dare you to clip that and post it on the net. Many of us have audio
> players.
First, I don't have the microphone and stuff to do that - but
hey thats a good idea. I'm kinda busy now and don't have the
time to do this. But it would be a neat idea to get audio
clips of Prouty on this....on JFK being Irish...and on Lane
about how Dallas was clean concerning the
assassination...everyone there was a "patriot". Maybe in a
couple of weeks.
john_mcloughlin
> Michael Kelly <mi...@emi.net> wrote:
> >j...@cbgbcs.cb.att.com (Joe Knapp) wrote:
> >>Also joining the board of the LL Populist Action Committee. Oh yeah, and
> >>appearing on their radio show on shortwave dozens of times, and publishing
> >>his book through their Holocaust-denial outlet, Noontide Press.
Birds of a feather flock together apparently. He is known by the company he keeps.
Do not forget John Rarick and Robert Weems and David Duke. White Citizens
Councils, KKK and those of that ilk.
> Dry up yourself. Do you not know that _The Secret Team_ is published by
> the Noontide Press? That is basic. I would think someone so hip to
> intelligence intrigues would know this. Or is investigating non-CIA
> connections outside your bailiwick?
Your insight here is commendable. Even if he dumped on Army Intelligence
now and again he could make the argument that he is an equal opportunity
scapegoater, but he can not.
>
> Prouty publishes through a Holocaust denial publishing arm of the Liberty
> Lobby, the Noontide Press, under the auspices of the Institute for
> Historical Review.
Do you think that means he is one of them? Oh, my God. Researchers in
the Third Millennium will be laughing their nuts off that most of them were taken
in by the Reich Wing garbage for so long. You CAN fool some of the people
ALL of the time. They will be known as the buffoons of the century. Hope their
kids don't find out how stupid they were. Hitler was Reich.
The real Hoax of the Twentieth Century:
The Reich Wing did it and the Reich Wing covered it up.
The Reich Wing did it and the Reich Wing covered it up.
The Reich Wing did it and the Reich Wing covered it up.
The Reich Wing did it and the Reich Wing covered it up.
The Reich Wing did it and the Reich Wing covered it up.
The Reich Wing did it and the Reich Wing covered it up.
The Reich Wing did it and the Reich Wing covered it up.
The Reich Wing did it and the Reich Wing covered it up.
The Reich Wing did it and the Reich Wing covered it up.
The Reich Wing did it and the Reich Wing covered it up.
>
> >>>I've never joined them. I don't subscribe to their newspaper,
> >>
> >>Weasel words. They give him free subscriptions. He reads them. He says,
> >>"If anyone wants to know what's going on in the world today, they'd
> >>read Spotlight."
>
>
> >>>Well, they put all this in this Esquire magazine
> >>
> >>Thanks for the tip on the Esquire article.
What month and year? The Steve Martin issue on Nazis in the Army?
> >>
> >>Question: why are you so skeptical of everything uttered by a "government"
> >>source, but lap up everything Prouty says without comment?
Reich Wingers usually kiss Reich Wing butts. Familiar territory and all that.
> >
> >The above question is rhetorical and is worthy of Robert Harris.
>
> Not at all. You often opine how official government or CIA statements
> must be dissected to reveal what they are hiding, yet post Prouty's
> dissembling verbatim. How come?
See above: Re: Reich Wing butts
>
> Also, even in said logic classes, "ad hominem" means something quite
> different than the usage that has become current in net.discussions.
> An ad hominem argument in logic is to say something along the lines
> of "since you are a poltroon, your comments about X are wrong." It does
> not refer to generic comments like "you are a poltroon." My comment
> above about your wholesale parroting of Prouty does not constitute an
> ad hominem attack.
Agreed. Point well taken. He is a poltroon and a troll by the way AND a
first class Reich Wing butt kisser, too. He musta been in the Reich Wing
branch of Armee Intelluhgunce, too.
>
> ---
> Joe Knapp
>
JM
>>>>
john_mcloughlin
> Michael Ray Swanson (mr...@Virginia.EDU) wrote:
> : but fronts for the secretive High Cabal. The closest I've
> : heard him in identifying it was in a taped interview in which
> : he said that they thought they were Chinese.
Holy shit, Chinese? The yellow hordes? If they are really in charge we
will all have to eat Chinese food and wear those silly uniforms and hats, too.
I only like Szechuan. Will we all be force fed Mandarin and Cantonese cuisine?
Perish the thought.
I really trust Prouty. If he says "The Chinese are Coming, the Chinese are Coming",
then it must mean that there will be more of them on the way and we are in trouble. If this
is just another version of the old "Red Scare" tactics, (the Yellow Scare, perhaps?) I will
be really pissed cause we are going to get screwed again and I will never listen to
another statement of his.
Sign me,
Pissed, Screwed and Tattooed.